This episode may contain content of a graphic nature, including descriptions of physical and sexual violence against adults, children, and animals. Listener discretion is advised. Hi everyone, I'm Talia and I'm Tanya, and together we are Crimes and Consequences, a true crime podcast. Hi everybody, and welcome to Crimes in Consequences. My name is Talia and this is my very beautiful co host, Tanya. Hello, and we want to thank you guys all for joining us.
If you haven't done so already, hit the subscribe like follow button. We're now on our own channel. It's on YouTube. I think it's at Crimes and Consequences, but I'm having a hard time finding it myself. But eventually, if you type in Crimes and Consequences, you will see where you can subscribe and you can see the video of this. But otherwise you can listen on your favorite podcast.
And with that being.
Said, I don't think I need any more introductions, do you?
No? I don't think so. I think we can get to it.
So this story I dove in deep. I there's so much I could say that I'm probably going to leave out because it's just it's first of all, it's really tragic. It's pretty gruesome, and it does have children.
Involved, oh children victims.
And yes, and animals, and it's just bad.
Yeah, just a warning.
It's fucking bad. So but if you like true crime, it's a very interesting story and we like your like true crime. So with that, we're gonna get started. All right, let's put on my little reading classes.
Go for it.
I'm gonna tell you about John and Nancy Newman. They were married in twin Falls, Idaho, on January fifth, nineteen seventy five. Three years later. Their first daughter, her name is Melissa, was born on September twenty second, nineteen seventy eight. Then they had a second daughter, her name was Angie, and that she was born on August seventeenth of nineteen eighty three. They're living in Idaho and John gets a job in May of nineteen eighty five in Anchorage, Alaska.
Ooh, that's a big move.
So he moves first, and then Nancy and the girls follow in July of that year, so they're a few months apart. Nancy's sister her name was Cherl. Her name was Cheryl Chapman. She lived there, so they had some family.
Oh that's nice.
Yeah, that makes it better. And Nancy ended up getting a job where Cheryl worked. They were both waitresses at a place called Gwenny's and Gwene was It was a popular place in Anchorage. It was a restaurant and it's still in business today. Nancy's husband, John, he worked as a heavy equipment operator for Mark Air, this company, but then he got an injury from a forklift. I believe it. It kind of ran them.
Oh no over a little bit, A little bit.
I mean he I mean, he wasn't killed, but he was seriously injured. So workers' compensation like the work he you know, filed acclaim and he got paid to retrain as a locksmith. Oh and this was kind of interesting to me because he got paid to spend two months in California learning how to be a lacksmith. Wow. So I don't think he's just.
Doing is this a state program?
It is through the state, So I don't I don't think he's just doing a regular life Like there's no I think it's different lacks than what.
Yeah, right, like some specialty blacksmith.
Yeah, I don't know. So the story that I'm gonna tell you takes place three days before John was to return home from California. This is not a good story. In March of nineteen eighty seven, while John was away in the training program, Nancy was staying obviously in Anchorage with her two young daughters, eight year old Melissa three year old Angie. Nancy had a second job. She not only was she a waitress at Gwenny's, but she was also a certified public accountant at H and R Black
Oh Wow to make ends meet nice Yeah. On the evening of Friday, March thirteenth, nineteen eighty seven, Nancy went to dinner at Gwenny's along with her sister, Cheryl, and her brother in law. His name was Paul Chapman. Basically, she went to work and then after work they joined her and they all sat and they ate. Now Nancy and John's two daughters, Melissa and Angie. They had been taken to go swimming by Cheryl's daughter. Her name was Kelly.
She was babysitting them. They went. Kelly made them some food, took them swimming. Nancy, Paul, and Cheryl. They're at the restaurant for a while, and then Nancy decides to go home with Paul and Cheryl to her apartment. She lived in an apartment whether with her husband and two daughters. They drove her home and Paul said, you know, if you need your car tomorrow, just let me know. I don't know if they were drinking. I don't know anything like that, but for some reason, she left her car
at Gwenny's. They all the adults came back home and they just had coffee and they smoked some cigarettes, and eventually Kelly came back with Angie and Melissa, and Angie and Melissa got ready for bed. Cheryl and Paul left it. And it's about ten o'clock at night, Cheryl, I'm sorry not, Cheryl. Nancy didn't have to work the next day, so she really wasn't worried about.
Oh, going to bed or yeah, getting up early or something.
Having to get her a car right away. Yeah, she didn't have to work. So this is Friday night. She didn't have to work until Sunday morning. At six am, eight am on Sunday, Cheryl, her Nancy's sister, gets a call from Nancy's boss and I don't know why this is her boss's name, Okay, but they called her Mama Somerville. Okay, Mama, Sererville. It's from twenties. Nancy was two hours late for her
shift and that wasn't That wasn't like her. She was very punctual, punctual, and her vehicle was still in the same spot as it was Friday night. This freaked Cheryl out and Paul and Cheryl told Mama Somerville, I'll drive over to Nancy's apartment and I'll check on them. Cheryl and Paul drive over there, and Cheryl is so upset she can't even get because she had a key to Nancy's place, she couldn't even get it in lock, so Paul had to do it. Cheryl waited in the kitchen
freaking out while Paul searched the house the apartment. He yelled for Nancy and she didn't answer. They did notice the coffee cups from the night before were still in the sink, like from Friday night. Yeah, I'm sorry Friday night. Thank you. Paul begins searching the apartment and he comes to a gruesome site. And this is really hard to tell, so buckle up. Eight year old Melissa in a room. She was found lying on her back in the middle
of the bedroom on the floor. Her right arm was under her body, and her left arm was out to the side. Both of her legs were bent back at the knees. She was naked from the waist down, and
her pajama dress was pulled up over her chest. A blue pillowcase was tied tightly around her neck, and there was a second pillowcase around her right wrist, so as if at some point both of her wrists had been tied together, but that at the point where Paul found her, there was just one, just one wrist tied with a pillowcase. There was a pill of blood in her general area.
I hate these stories.
I know there was a palmprit that would later be found on the wall above her headboard. In the next room Paul found Nancy. She was laying on her mattress. A pillowcase was tied tightly around her neck. Her nightgown had been pulled up over her brass. Her face was bloody and beaten, and she was clearly dead, and a medical examiner would later determine she was raped and so
was Melissa. And I read conflicting things. One said that Melissa was raped with a want object, but I know that semen was found in her so I don't know if there were two different forms, but we'll just go on. When Paul opened the third door, it was even more horrific. It was just a three year old Angie. She's lying, She's laying on the floor covered in blood.
Oh man.
She had her jugular vein had been slashed through. Her crowded artery had been cut. She'd been cut from ear to ear, and she had four different cuts on her neck. Her nightgown had been pushed up around her chest.
This is so weird.
Again. There was conflicting accounts of whether she was sexually assaulted or not. There might have been an attempt, is what I'm getting from it, because I feel like if she was I would have found it. Yeah, probably, And she had defensive wounds in her hands. And her cause of death, excuse me, was she bled out?
Oh man.
The corner estimated that all three were murdered approximately about ten o'clock on Saturday morning. So Friday night is when Cheryl and Paul and babysitter Kelly, cousin Kelly Rover. Paul sees all this. Man he stumbles to the kitchen and he tells Cheryl, don't go down the hall. They're all dead calls and and then nine one one calls which I don't have. Cheryl can be heard just screaming in the back. God. Now. A detective named Sergeant Mike Grimes.
He was from the Anchorage Police Department's Homicide Response Team. He led the investigation for the triple homicide. There were two separate teams of detectives working on the case. One was to gather the evidence from the crimes crime scene and the other one was to pursue any leads. I mean I'm talking about right away. They split up like some Some are interviewing neighbors, others are looking at the crime scene. For weeks. Forensics actually went over Nancy's apartment.
There was so much blood, hair, fluids, fingerprints. They use this what is it when they have glue that they heat up in.
It, oh like super glue to get to bring finger princes.
That they did that.
I don't know what it's called, but yeah, I've heard of that.
They vacuumed the apartment and then they had found out that Nancy had borrowed a vacuum from the Chapmans, So they took the vacuum from a couple days earlier and they went through all that they're trying to accumulate evidence, and they again they find hair fibers. They package them all and they sent it to the FBI. When the police first got there, they noticed there were two cereal
bowls in the sink. There was a coffee cup on the table, three in the sink, and that was a sign to them that the girls had awoken Saturday and they normally had cereal and watched cartoons while Nancy smoked her Marlboro Reds and had coffee the morning cigarette it had coffee. Now, when Nancy would work, she would take all her coins and she would put it in a cookie tin, you know the ones like at Christmas, the tins, but she would roll them up, you know Nichols dimes
into the little like the paper wrappers. Yeah, I remember those days. That was empty. They found that, and that was empty, and that's where she kept all of her her tips that were coins. Also missing from that apartment was her purse, her jewelry, her husband John's keys, a check book, a wallet, and a high priced a very expensive at the time, I'm thirty five millimeter camera. But despite what was taken, it didn't look like the place
was ransacked. It looked like whoever was there knew where the items were that he or she wanted.
Okay, you know what I mean.
They're searching. There's drawers aren't open, things aren't turned upside down anything. The evidence collected told a horrible story of torture and sexual assault.
Oh man, tlea torture, ah man, Okay.
Okay, I'm not going to get all that into it just because it is with a child, and I can't. I am a human being, believe it or not, even though I'm a lawyer inside right, it is still a little bit a little spark, still a little spark in me.
There's a little piece still left.
Nancy had been badly crushed in the face. Oh some blunt object, I mean, just beaten and then strangled with a pillowcase. Interestingly, on her dresser they found green wool gloves.
Right like, isn't the summertime?
Yeah, yeah, gloves, hair gloves. Her sheets were blood stained and there was some fecal matter on it. Okay, there was blood observed on the bathroom light switch, and in the bathroom they found a damp washcloth that had been used to clean the sink, the mirror, and the toilet. Area.
Hmm.
Forensic technicians discovered one pubic hair on the washcloth. Now, Melissa's body was how do I say this? She was the one that seemed to be the focus. Oh, and it's really it's just it's very heartbroken, heartbreaking for me. They found thirteen pubic hairs on or around her body, in addition to some extra headhair that didn't match any of the victims, and they found pubic care on her bed sheets. On three year old Angie. They killer left one pubic hare, which is why I'm led to believe
he at least a tad too Ripeer. There were two more foreign pubic hairs that turned up when they vacuumed the floors, bringing the whole range of pubic hares to twenty.
Damn. Okay, he sudden a lot of puba cares.
I guess I got the hawk man. The killer had staged the bodies. Remember I told you Molisses legs were bent and the other ones were displayed out, so the police knew they were dealing with the psychopathics like sexual sadist. This, this, this is really fucked up. Sergeant Grimes consulted with the FBI's behavioral science units specifically Agent Judson Ray, and this
is what Judson Ray concluded. He felt the killer would have low self esteem, he would feel rejected by society for years, and that now was his time for revenge. He was likely the youngest of his siblings.
I wonder how they can figure this out. No, it's fascinating to me. Okay, sorry, sidetrack.
It's so weird.
Yeah it is.
This person probably also experienced a recent traumatic event, such as a breakup or loss of a job. The killer would appear to be cooperative with the police and probably try to interject himself into the investigation. They believe he would have a history of sexual assault against either young people or elderly people.
Oh like helpless people. That's real nice.
He was white, an underachieving male, probably between the ages of nineteen and twenty four, Like what.
Yeah, do you know what I know?
All of this who lived nearby and Agent Ray. He believed that the family probably knew who it was, and perhaps they had rejected him. He specifically Nancy. He based on the the fact that her face was just beaten to a paul okay, which means someone's trying to annihilate her identity. Basically, He also speculated that the killer's goal was to humiliate Nancy and the girls. He would probably have a hard time in relationships, in maintaining even menial jobs.
Well because he's a fucking creep.
So anyway, yeah, that's probably why with that description.
One person rose to the top of the suspect list. His name was Kirby Anthony. He's twenty three years old and he was a nephew of John Newman.
Oh Cheryl's husband. Yes, okay.
He had moved to Anchorage, Alaska with his girlfriend, Debbie Heck from Idaho. He is from Twin Falls in nineteen eighty five. The reason why he moved is there were allegations against him that he had brutally raped a twelve year old girl and beaten her, beaten her almost to death. Her name was Michelle Wow at an Idaho campground and he'd basically left her for dead, but she was found proskeutters found by her a pair of flip flaps, and they heard from other people that a group of guys
had been partying in that area. So they ended up like I don't know if it was through the news or what, but somehow through the flip flaps connected it to Kirby. They were actually Kirby's friends flip flaps that he borrowed. So police were investigating Kirby. The problem that they had was that this girl, Michelle, had been so brutalized that she had suffered some brain injury. Yeah, so
she couldn't identify her attacker immediately. So he skips town with his girlfriend and goes to Alaska while they're investigating him. And just a little side note, he Kirby did admit to verticalarizing the home in nineteen eighty two of an elderly woman, So this is a prior crime he committed. And I will get into his background a little bit. He beat this woman who was in a wheelchair. Man the fuck, what is his problem in a wheelchair? He sprayed her with mace in her face, tied her up,
and took her phone so she couldn't call anybody. Any rob her. Luckily, her son had came to visit her and that saved her life. So let me give you a little background on Kirby. This gem his parents. He was the youngest of five, just like the profiler inside, he'd probably be the youngest. He was the youngest of five his dad was a truck driver and his mom was a waitress. Her name is Peggy. I don't remember
his dad's name, but his dad wasn't very nice. His dad one time beat his brother for not feeding the cat. And while he was beating Kirby's brother, his mom, Kirby's mom tried to intervene. So he started beating Kirby's mom Peggy, and he kicked her in the ribs and she crawled into the bedroom and he came after her, and she grabbed a gun and he's like, what are you gonna do? Just go ahead and shoot me. So she did.
Oh.
She shot him in the hip. Wow, And he drove himself to the hospital and he survived. I'll just his years, his younger years. There's so many crimes, so I will just stick to the more interesting ones. There is a really disturbing incident that happened. He had a girlfriend, I believe her name was Kim, and he took him to a bridge where he had a bunch of friends there and his friends had baby bunnies in a bum no, and they were going to light the bunnies on fire
what and throw them over the bridge. Kim started crying and Kirby's like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no no, and he acts like a hero and he takes her home and guess what he does.
He kills the bunnies.
He goes back to the bridge. Oh, lights the bunnies on fire with his friends alive, throws them over the bridge.
People are fucking sick.
God, Kim broke up with him, and he spent years stalking her. Oh God, even when she was married, he was still stalking her.
This happened in Idaho, right, yes, crimes.
Okay, So he's having all these troubles and he goes to Anchorage with his girlfriend Deb and they get odd jobs. He works at a car wash, just just some small jobs for a few months, and then they end up moving in with Nancy and John Newman. Okay, because they told Nancy and John and this is true, that they had gotten a job at the Arctic Enterprise. And that is a boat which also has a facility on it where or a factory where like, as soon as fish are caught, you can clean them right on the boat.
But they also take the boat out for long periods of time, so they stay there for a little bit. They sell their possessions because.
They're waiting to get on this boat for the season start or something exactly.
And then Nancy and John did not enjoy their company. So you know, they found Kirby to be aggressive and that he did drugs. I don't know what kind of drugs. I do know cocaine, probably weed. I don't know anything else. But eventually they deb and Kirby Kirby, thank you. They
go on the boat. They go on the Enterprise, and Kirby's girlfriend she really wanted to go on that ship because she was being abused and she felt if she was surrounded by other people, he wouldn't be able to refuse her, and she wanted to break up with them.
Oh yeah, it's best to be around other people because she probably knows what a psycho he is exactly.
Yeah, she breaks up with them on the boat, and he doesn't like that so much. But then she starts dating somebody. Oh girl, no, and he really doesn't like that. He ended up getting fired because he started fights. So he got kicked off the boat.
So that's the traumatic event and he lost his yah, his girlfriend.
Yeah, he goes back to Anchorage and he shows up at Nancy's apartment and he asks us if he can stay, you know, with.
With Nancy and the girls.
Yeah, while John's away in California.
Oh no, Nancy says, okay, Oh, she's so nice.
But when she told John, John was like, oh, hell to the no fuck out. So Nancy had to kick him out.
Oh boy.
She didn't tell John that she had loaned him five hundred dollars. And by the way, Kirby's mom never bothered to share with Nancy and John the fact that he was being looked at.
For oh for the twelve year old rape.
And attempted murder of a twelve year old.
That's nice. No, she was just happy he was gone.
Yeah. Sure, Probably Kirby. On the night of the murders, he claims that that entire evening, I should say, like before March thirteenth, he was playing cards, drinking, using some cocaine until the early morning hours.
As one does. Yeah, I don't know.
Anya doesn't cocaine in my life.
I don't talk about the things, Okay. Around eight forty five am on March fourteenth, he said, he left his apartment and went to a friend's house, and he was there till about ten or eleven in the morning, and that is the morning with the murders. How questions is, how could anybody do this? How could anybody do this? How could anybody do this that knows?
Yeah, right, because he's his.
Family and we're talking about eight and three year old, right, not to forget about Nancy. But detectives weren't convinced with his alibi, but they had no direct evidence to at that point to arrest him. There was no murder weapon ever recovered because he did remember us a blunt.
Yeah, that's a project on Nancy.
Yeah, but their circumstantial evidence started building up. But then he could explain it in a way as oh, I lived with them, Oh that's right, right, when my fingerprints.
My hair, my whatever. Yeah.
But his fingerprints were found on the empty cookie cookie tin cookie ten.
Yeah, and you should be touching that right, yeah, and belonged to him.
A witness came forward and said that Kirby paid for something with rolled up points. Oh yeah, but this is where it's like it's it's just gonna get really gross. Pubic cares that were collected, remember I told you about twenty of them, and the washcloth had a pubic hair on it. Those hairs were examined microscopically, and they were compared to samples that Herby I had to give. And we all know hair evidence isn't all that solid.
Right right, I'm just thinking the poor person that has to collect the evidence, but go on, like what a job?
Okay, clean to Some of the pubic hairs were crabs otherwise known as cubic lice eggs.
Oh man, all these poor.
They were found on Kirby at the time he had a whole pubic lice infestation. Word I was going to say. And they were found on the washcloth there was one, and by the.
Bodies coincidence, I don't think so.
On the bodies too, so horrible, it's awful.
Gross.
Green woolf fibers were discovered on the washcloth that matched the gloves and that were, you know, in Nancy's room. And as I said, he eventually said, oh yeah, I didn't tell you this, but he said, oh yeah, I brought the gloves over a week earlier. I was doing some like work on the house, or a couple of days earlier, and I left him there. So he actually admitted that they were his gloves. They concluded, I mean that, I mean.
He fucking did it.
He did it.
I mean, circumstantial evidence is still evidence.
Yeah, it doesn't always have to be like a positive DNA test. I like, what the what's the probability that there's another person who knows the family, even a stranger, let's.
Just say, who also has a history of yeah, violent, right and violence and also pubic life.
I mean, what are the odds? I mean, I think that would narrow down quite a few people. I mean, I don't know, I don't know what the statistics are, but.
Well, they haven't find John Newman's expensive thirty five millimeter camera in where he was staying at a friend named Dan's house.
Oh well, there's another piece of evidence.
He said, Nancy let him borrow it.
Sure she did.
John said, there's not a chance in home anybody Nancy would let anybody borrow it. It was expensive, Well, it was expensive back in nineteen eighty five, and when they processed the film in there, it only showed pictures of Nancy and John and the family. So if you really needed a borrow camera, he never used it. Yeah, he never used it.
Yeah, she's not going to just let anybody take it, especially some irresponsible nineteen year old.
On they found a very small drop of human blood on the totle area of one of his shoes and a stain on his shirt that matched Nancy's peces. Oh man, they didn't do DNA, so it just must have been fecal matter because at this point they didn't have Dan. No, they didn't, but they had enough, right, Yeah. Kirby decides, oh shit, I need to get the hell out of Dodge.
Oh. He tries to flee.
So he tries to flee. He tells his roommate, Hey, I'm gonna leave.
Don't tell the police, don't tell them where I went.
And his roommate, again, his name is Dan, was pretty freaked out by Kirby at that point and he was afraid for himself. So he waited a few hours and then he was like hello police on one. Hello, Kirby is headed to the Canadian border. And it's kind of a long story. He made it past the border, but he had a suspended license, so they sent him back and he got caught. And his trial was a very high profile trial that this.
Is a horrendous story. It's it's like, I'm sure it was sensationalized.
And John Douglas testified he did Special Agent John Douglas from the FBI.
Nice he has. I just keep seeing him.
I keep seeing him pop up, like on my Facebook or Instagram.
Want to be your friend.
No, No, he does.
A master class, like you take it, you can join this.
I guess I don't know his company or whatever.
And they have master classes and there's all kinds of people on it, like the Wolfgang Puck does, like cooking and like. So John Douglas does a whole course. I guess you would call it on like how to spot liars and stuff.
I mean to.
Watch you, I know.
I don't know, John Douglas said. She looks at me like that.
Every time I hear his name. I'm like, oh, I need to sign up for that master class.
You can tell me about that.
But I know I forget please, you know, I forget everything.
About I forgot Kirby's name.
Well, I'm telling you now.
So in one of the episodes, I asked what happened to the killer killer and then he died In the story he was shot, Okay, anyway.
Anyway, I'm sorry. That's a sidetrack. But John Douglas testify.
He testified, and he said that the Newman murders were sexually fueled murders, which are committed by psychopaths. He said, and I'm not quoting, I'm verbatim, but sex fueled murders are some of the most disturbing and psychologically depraved crimes committed by people with severe psychopathic problems. These crimes are more than just murder. They are done to get sadistic pride from the prolonged torture, sexual violation, and absolute dominance
over the victims at their center. Sex fueled murders are driven by a lignant narcissism. Narcissism and a complete loss of empathy. Oh so, he's They no longer view others as people worthy of dignity, but simply as objects to be controlled, defiled, and in the long run killed for their own gratification. Not done. The build up of sadistic sexual fantasies over time leads to the offender's reality being separated from their moral reasoning. I don't think Kirby had a lot of moral reasons.
Only nineteen too, Oh he's twenty three, okay, but geez.
The crime scene of the crime scenes of sex fieled murders are reflect the psychological duality of sexual depravity mixed with a need for general power and cruelty. They often pose their victims elaborate staging, and he goes on and on man, and these calculated acts are done by sane people who are conscious that their actions are wrong, but lack the ordinary judgment of right and wrong or feel regret. That's what we had to say. So there's trial. Kirby
takes stand. Oh he does himself no favors. There's no point even talking about the stupid shit he says, because he does himself no favors.
The just says he didn't do it right.
Yeah, I'm sure he didn't do it. He didn't do it.
Yeah, I mean wasn't mean we never do that.
No, the jury deliberated, they weighed all the evidence, and he was found.
Guilty, Thank goodness.
Yeah, he got life in prison with the possibility of parole. Really after one hundred and twenty years.
Oh so you get good.
Nor This is you know, sparked our outrage and anchorage Alaska. I mean, everybody was upset. Kirby had to be in solitary confinement because of death threats, and then I read about him. He's still in prison, and he's been in fights. He actually has an appellate case about some altercations denied or something. So he assaulted, severely assaulted somebody. So let's see. So, okay,
do you want to know what police believe happened. Yes, okay, they believe that Saturday morning, the kids got up, Nancy got up, She gave them cereal. They watched the cartoons. About nine o'clock, Kirby called Nancy and asked if he could talk to her. She said, okay, because there's no sign of him breaking in or anything. And there was an ash tray. In that ashtray, I told you there were a Marlboro cigarette, and then there was a camel and he smoked camel cigarettes. Kirby did, there's an extra
cup of coffee. There were three in the scene four nights before. Extra cup of coffee. Some time between nine and ten while after he finished a cigarette, he got mad and he made the Nancy go in a room. He made everybody go in the room. And I don't know how he controlled them. I don't know, but he had some sort of blunt force object that they never found. It gets really sad, he did later state to a woman who came forward that he forced Nancy to watch him rape Melissa.
Why do you force someone to do that?
Well, Melissa was tied up, and I don't know if he had a weapon. You got a daughter all tied up, you got I'm assuming she didn't have access to a phone.
That breaks my heart. It's really terrible.
And I don't know if he was threatening.
To kill to kill Melissa, right.
If that's all I mean, I can only speculate. That's just what somebody came forward and said. He later said, we know he raped Nancy. He took his time with Melissa, which leads me to believe that maybe Nancy was there because he was trying to torture Nancy in essence by torturing Melissa and having her watch. When he was done, he went to the bathroom, took a washcloth, cleaned himself up, clean the sink a little bit, cleaned around the toilet, stole some items, and then went about.
His day like nothing happened.
And he still claims his innocence. Sure, but he's in prison.
Yeah, he can fuck off.
He can totally fuck off. So that's the horrible, horrible story.
Oh tell yeah, Jesus, it was horrible.
God, I know that was terrible. I mean they're all terrible stories. I know I've said this one hundred times.
But when it's kid man and just and such a horrible like.
You can sometimes understand crimes and passion, like the heat of passion. You're angry, Yeah, your lover just left you, freak out whatever, or your lover has another lover.
But this, yeah, there's no sense.
There's no sense when there's no sense to it, I mean yeah, because I mean like you can you can understand some other crimes like, oh, somebody's robbing a bank and they shoot and kill a police officer or you know what I mean, there's murders where you're like, oh, I see how that happened, like, but.
There was something that was right. But yeah, were signs the bonnies.
Yeah, the bunnies.
And I didn't even get I mean, he was full childhood. He was in the juvie by the time I was fourteen.
I mean, yeah, attacking a twelve year old I mean, almost killing her, leaving her for dad, Yeah, leaving her for dad.
I mean the girlfriends.
Woman in a wheelchair and elderly woman in a wheelchair.
T Yeah, like he should have been off the streets, but man, this one's bad.
Well, thanks, I guess thanks to Lea.
You're welcome. Thank you guys all for taking the time to listen to us. And if you want to get another episode weekly that is AD free and exclusive to our Apple subscribers or our patreons, you can go to patreon dot com, slash T and T crimes or subscribe on Apple Podcasts and you get this episode released early in AD free. Plus you get an additional episode only you and an exclusive group of people. We love get and we have Facebook, but we don't really we're not really social media active.
No, I'm not a kind of expert.
Yeah, I'm busy. I'm busy. I'm I'm busy. I had a job, got kids, I got kids, I got a dog in our.
Cats and yeah, you're like doctor Doolitt all fit your house.
To zoo at my house and the monkeys are running it literally, I'm not kidding. Yeah.
We have a website, Crimes Andconsequences dot com.
Yeah, you can get merchandise there.
Yeah, and I think that's probably everything enough men, so I'm fine with all that until our next episode.
Don't kill each other.
Bye bye, Peo