This episode may contain content of a graphic nature, including descriptions of physical and sexual violence against adults, children, and animals. Listener discretion is advised. Hi everyone, I'm Talia and I'm Tanya, and together we are Crimes and Consequences, a true crime podcast. Hi, everybody, Welcome to this week's episode of Crimes and Consequences. I'm Talia and I'm Tanya, and together we are two friends,
two lawyers that love true crime. And I want to welcome everybody and let you know we have our own YouTube channel. Now, yes, it's if you go to YouTube and you type in at crimes and Q and Consequences Consequences, you can find find us. And if you want to hit the subscribe like thumbs up, whatever button, please do. And with that, I'm gonna get started.
All right, let's go.
This one was suggested by a patron of ours. Her name is Leanne p So thank you, Leanne. And this story has a lot of twist and turns, and it is about a child, so fair warning, fair warning. So I'm gonna start. Okay, you ready, This is about Jeanine Nicarrol, and I'm gonna give you a little background on Jeanine. She was born July seventh, nineteen seventy two, in Naperville,
which is in due Page County, Illinois. Her parents were Thomas and Patricia, and her dad was a Chicago building engineer and Patricia was a school sucker terry at Jeanine's elementary school. Jeanine had two sisters, Chris and Kathy, and the family lived on Clover Court and it's a short street with a lot of large homes and they have large lots there. One of the neighbors had remarked that
it's a really quiet neighborhood. Janine loved horses, and she was scheduled to attend horseback writing lessons the day after something very bad happened to her. She had won ribbons for her horse riding skills and she was one of the most popular ten year olds in her fifth grade class at Elmwood Elementary School in Neighborville she'd been in. She was about four foot four feet tall, weighed a little over four feet tall, so she's kind of short.
Weighed sixty three pounds. She had prominent, deep dimples which you'll see in the pictures that we uploaded, brown hair, and big brown eyes. A neighbor described her as being a very lovely, darling, wonderful girl. Oh, the father of Jeanine Thomas, his best friend stated, when you know Janine's family and the love and joy they share, you know where Janine got her bounce and joy and why she
brought so much joy to people in her life. Now, this story takes place on Friday, February twenty fifth, nineteen eighty three, and Jeanine is ten. She stayed home that day from school because she had the flu, and she was home alone because both of her parents worked and her siblings were at school. Her mother, Patricia, came home to check on her during her lunch break and she
made her a sandwich. She was there, Janine told her that a man from the gas company had come by and that Jeanine had opened the door for him.
Oh.
Patricia warned Janine do not ever open the door for a stranger again. Then Patricia went back to work and around one thirty she called Jeanine checked on her see how she's doing. While she was at work getting ready to leave, Patricia got a phone call from her neighbor. Her neighbor had stated that Patricia's or I'm sorry Janine's sister, her name was Kathy, had come home and she found the front door was kicked in, Oh No, and there was a bootprint on it. Janine was no longer in
her bed resting. She was no longer in the house. Sometime between one thirty and three, somebody had taken Jeanine. Jeanine at the time was wearing a short pink nightgown with the words I'm sleepy aw and a picture of the Seven Dwarfs que under the words. So the police get contacted and they are reaching out to all the neighbors to find out what happened to Janine. Neighbors reported seeing a strange man in the area around the time
of the abduction. The man was described as being white, age between twenty five and thirty, and possibly wearing wire rimmed glasses and a brown cap. The man was seen driving a heavily rusted, light colored older model four door car. Police began a massive search Jeanine, but it the first two days they found they found nothing. However, it was two days later and this is from the court records,
after her disappearance, a guy named Charles Bryant. He was from Aurora, Illinois and a friend of his were hiking through the woods on a biking trail near Naperville. After they'd smoked some weed. Brian saw something and at first he thought it was a white box stuffed under the brush, but it wasn't. It was Jeanine's body. No, Brian thought he was hallucinating.
Oh yeah, sure, I would have thought that too, right, I.
Mean he must have smoked some strong he said. Quote, I've been smoking marijuana and I wasn't really sure what I saw and I didn't want to be made out to be a fool. But they didn't want to get any closer him and his friend, so Bryant and his friend went to Batavia, it's some city nearby to pick up another friend named Gary Anderson. They picked up Gary Anderson to show him what they found. When they found and he wasn't stoned.
Oh He's like, so yeah, this is bad.
So he confirmed, yes, this is a body, and the three men fled to the nearest farmhouse and then called the authorities to report the findings.
That will sober you up really quick, right.
Right, oh man, it's February twenty seven, so it's two days after she was taken. Authorities discovered her body in Northwest in the northwest part of Naperville. The police were more than fairly certain it was Janine's and they decided by the time they went there, it was dark, so they decided to leave the body where it was found, and they had a police like watch it until the following day. So what they discovered was shreds of what
was presumed to be Jeanine's nightdown on her body. Her body had been bludgeoned, and the autopsy report claimed her death came as a result of quote massive blunt trauma to the hut and that she'd been struck several times with anything from a lead pipe to a baseball. Her nightgown was pulled up over her shoulders and she didn't have any defensive wounds on her. Also on her body was adhesive tape that blindfolded her eyes, so her eyes
were covered with tape. They didn't know if that meant she was held captive in an unknown location before she was killed, but later on the corner stated that she didn't. It wasn't long after she was abducted that she she died. They found fresh tire tracks near her body. Her body was found midway between the top of a rise, in the bottom of a semi dry creak. She was face down in the underbrush, and they believed that she was
wrapped in some sort of blanket and bed sheet. This is going to be their theory, and drug to a car, drive to a car where she was repeatedly sodomized and then beaten.
It's poor child.
It's time you see you guys can see the pictures of her. It's sad. In an effort to preserve the evidence of the scene, the officials decided not to drive a hearse onto the nature path where her body was, so six detectives carried the small white body bag across this frozen field to hers that was waiting at the opening of the path. Jeanine was buried. She was dressed in her black velvet riding jacket.
Oh how cute.
Writing pants. I don't know how to what they're called. Yeah, there's official name for it.
There is an official name. But yeah, I know what you.
Mean, shut up hers or something something like that. Don't know, Sorry, don't know, and riding boots with a writing crap in her hand, a horseshy wreath of red roses and white carnations surrounded her casket. So a task force was assembled to find out who killed Jeanine, and they had a twenty four hour tip line and they urged anybody with
any information to call it. And they even off five thousand dollars, which is the equivalent of fifteen four hundred and eighty two dollars for crime stoppers for any good tip that would help them find the killer. It took that took a few weeks to get that going though. Evidence that was found at the site was sent to the DuPage County Cram CRAM Crime Lab Analysis for analysis. The evidence included the adhesive tape or that was, the blindfold cast of footprints made by a hiking boot, and
the tire tracks found near the body. A witness reported seeing a dark green Mercury Monarch or Marquee. I don't know I know a Marquee, but I know with its left front hubcap missing near the location where Janine's body was discovered. The main clue early in the investigation into the abdoc and murder of Jeanine was this terry cloth towel. The towels brightly colored, possibly made in like an art class at school or a craft class, and that was
also used to blindfold Jeanine. It was discovered along her body in a wooded area, so it wasn't actually honor. They were just assuming that they maybe used it to blindfold her. The towel was of high quality. It had been washed several times before the color design was applied to it.
Huh.
The portion of the towel they found had a small figure with two legs, one arm, and part of the face was drawn in bright red, green and blue. They appealed to the public, you know, hey, have you see anybody seen a towel like this, because it's pretty descriptive, like how many people have towels like that? Had a
matching towel and brought it to police. That toll had been purchased in the late nineteen sixties and they said it was in the Chicago area and there were only two stores that sold it, and the caricature was of Romeo and Juliette. It didn't belong to the Nacario's family,
so soon belonged to the Camillary. Schools in the area launched a campaign to inform the children now of the dangers of meeting strangers, and they started having a latch key program, and they started fingerprinting kiss oh yeah, to retain records. So there were possible leads in this investigation. Police began to believe that perhaps Junine's abduction was the result of a burglary gone wrong, like a burglar came in, didn't know she was there, and more than one burglar,
they assumed, and they panicked when they saw her. That was their theory. They then received a tip from a man who ended up being a put I'm sorry. They received a tip and this tip told the investigators the name of a man named Alejandro Alexandre Fernandas sorry, I apologize. He was nineteen years old, he lived in Aurora, which is a Chicago suburb, and he was in part of a gang. So that's the tip they got. He went
by Alex. Alex was interviewed and stated on the day that he was that day he was out with some friends. One of the guys was named Stephen Buckley. So there's going to be a few players in this. You got to remember this. So we have Alex, and we have Stephen Buckley, and the other guy he knew is an acquaintance named Ricky. According to Alex, Ricky admitted to killing Jeanine.
Oh really.
Police then interviewed Stephen Buckley and during the interview, he denied having anything to do with the murder of Janine, but he said he did have boots that were similar to what was described by the officers based on the treading of the boots, and he handed them over to the police. The first person that analyzed the boots said, this isn't a match, so they had it analyzed again. Second time it said could be a match. They had an analystk third time.
Seriously, it's a match. That's very reliable information.
Police ended up figuring out who Ricky was. His name was Rolando Cruz and both Alex and Stephen and Ricky were all in a gag. Now this is where it gets it starts getting strange. One of Alex Fernandez's friends got arrested for robbery. Now keep in mind there's this reward for any information leading up to Salad tips. Alex, his friend gets arrested forbery, burlary, robbery, one of those and he tells the police, I know who did it.
It was. It was it was Alex and the police at this time had Alex in custody, so the police gave his friend who I don't know the name of a box with ten thousand dollar in it and put a wire at him. And at the the jail or the police department, both of them were put in a room together.
Oh, the friend in Alex.
Okay, So the friend tells Alex, listen, say this money right here. I'm getting that money and they're dropping the charges against me, and you will get the same amount of money if you tell them what happened to Janine. What you know, and Alex sold his friend, Oh, okay, well, I know where the murder occurred. It was at a barn by a farmhouse, and he knew that because he held Janine down.
Oh.
Police searched the local farmhouses because Alex couldn't give them an exact one local barns, and they could find anything that connected her in the murder to any barn. And there wasn't any evidence, I don't know, like hey or anything that would lead them to believe that she was in a barn. But they searched anyway, and eventually they started thinking, I don't know if what Alex is saying
is true. It took a year with hardly any evidence, but Stephen Rolando and Alex were eventually indicted by grand jury on March eighth, nineteen eighty four. It's Rolando Cruz and he was also offered reward money, so he gave some statements too, but the police couldn't verify any of these statements he gave. So these kids little weird and I'll just tell you a little bit about Rolando Cruz. Twenty he was described as being too high on paint.
Too high on paint.
I think he snuffed a lot of paint, okay, And he told the grand jurie some story that didn't really make sense, and eventually they charged him with perjury, which is kind of strange, but they didn't believe and I think they were thinking that if they charged him with perjury,
maybe he'll come forward and tell the truth. He had been sentenced for burglary that was committed before, so all of these three guys have all had burglary charges, which goes with the prosecution's theory that this was a burglary gone wrong. Eventually, Cruz was charged with murder, rape, deviant sexual assault, and aggravated liberties with a child, aggravated kidnapping, home invasion, and residential burglary. His bond was set at
three million Wow. Alex Hernandez. He was arrested. He was found at a homeless shelter run by a church in Aurora. Because this is a year later and it's March ninth, nineteen eighty four, he was charged with murder rape. He was charged with the same thing, three million dollar bond. He was later it was determined that he had the IQ of seventy six and he had to wear really thick glasses because he was very cross eyed. Okay, he was described well, his nickname was crazy Alex.
Oh boy, crazy Alex.
That's what they called them on the streets because of his eyes.
Okay.
Now, Stephen Buckley, he was twenty one. He dropped out of high school. He went to East, a rural high He had a history of burglary and thraft and theft. He was described as being very creepy, very scary, with very scary eyes. His eyes always looked drugged out and crazed. They arrested him at his parents' house on March ninth, nineteen eighty four, and he was charged with the same exact things. Now, there was an investigator named John Sam.
John Sam he worked for DuPage County Sheriff's office. He resigned from his job before the trial of these three men occurred, and he was so adamant these men didn't do it that he offered to testify for the defense really in the trial of all three of them, but prosecution, the prosecutor was able to make it so he couldn't because he worked on the case.
Maybe a conflict of interest or something.
Sam stated he'd always been unsettled because they're about their arrest because there's there's really no evidence except for that boot prince true and for the fact that Alex told nine different versions of how he was participating in the murder of Janine, nine different versions. So there's this, you know, the state's attorney and he wants to charge them with
a death penalty and also multiple felonies. The defense attorneys tried to get it moved out of DuPage County because obviously the publicity there was all over, and he didn't they didn't think that they could get a fair defense. So the judge said, no, we're staying here, and this is all important. There's a point to why I'm going through about the trial. The trial of all three defendants began on Monday, January seventh, nineteen eighty five, in a courtroom in Wheaton, Illinois.
Were they all tried together or they all had separate trials.
I think they all had they were tried together. They were, but there's more than one trial, and there's some twists to this story. Okay, Prashcustin's case, Really, the only thing was the height of the bootprint on the front door of the carrio home, the size of the shoe prints on the door and in the tire tracks, which I don't even believe matched any of the vehicles that the men, but they tried to link the bootprint to Buckley and
that was the one on the front door. So the prosecutor's case against Cruz was through a detailed vision of the crime that Cruz told the police came to him about two months after the murder.
A vision.
So these guys are making confessions, confessions sort of about what happened. So the prosecutor's case against Hernandez hitched on the fact that he told nine different accounts of his knowledge or involvement in the crime. All. Of course, the defendant's attorneys objected because they were eighty one photos of Janine's body that the prosecutor wanted the jury to see, and they were horrific photos. Only twenty one of them got in. Three witnesses testified that Hernandez and Cruz admitted
in conversations that they were involved in Janine's abduction and murder. Well, I mean they were blab in their mouth yea, that they were part of it. And they were all either friends or relatives of the men. The defense said they were all drug drug users and high school dropouts, and they had long criminal histories. So they talk about the bootprints and comparing it. And some other people testified that they saw Buckley driving a car matching the suspects description
in that same time as Janine was abducted. Two as a brother and a family friend of Hernandez testified against him. Well. The verdict came in Febuer twenty second, nineteen eighty five, after twenty seven days of testimony from ninety witnesses, two days of closing arguments, and thirteen and a half hours deliberation, the jury found Cruise and Hernandez guilty of murder, rate and all the other charges. I explained that was they were found guilty three days before the second anniversary of
Janine's death. But when it came to Stephen Buckley, the jury was hopelessly dead locked. Then prosecutor said, we're gonna try to again.
But he was the one with the bootprint, right, hopelessly dead locked. It's kind of crazy, like if that's really like one of the big pieces of evidence and their deadlocked. But the other two guys did it, Okay.
He following because it gets seems.
A little odd, very interesting, I'm with you.
So Buckley was released on bond, and it gets even more complicated, and two of his journeys ended up getting arrested. But I'm not going to go into all of that. In the long short of it, he was acquitted or yeah he was acquitted. Yeah he was acquitted, or he wasn't tried again. I should say that he wasn't tried again. Cruise and Hernandez weigh the rights to a jury trial, and they were sentenced to death. Cruz claimed that he grabbed her by the throat and threw down the stairs.
That was one of the things that he had confessed to. They were sentenced to Menard Correctional Center, where they would be executed. Cruz was sentenced to an additional two hundred and fifty five years in prison, including two six year terms for rape and all these other things. So he got the worst of it. You know, death sentences are automatically appealed by the Supreme Court, and everybody did all the appeals they could, and they all got denied. But
things changed. There was a twist, And I'm gonna tell you about Brian Dugan, Okay. Brian James Dugan was born in September twenty fifth, on September twenty third, nineteen fifty six, in Nashua, New Hampshire.
Nisha, maybe Yessa, what's.
Got of ah? I don't know. He was born in New Hampshire. He showed signs of being a psychopath at a very early age. And there's a point to me talking to you about Brian. Let me tell you a little bit about Brian. Right. He burned down his garage at the age of eight. Oh damn, so he's starting fires. At the age of thirteen, he poured gasoline on a cat and lit the cat on a fire.
Animal cruelty, fucker.
So yet we got arson, we got animal cruelty. At the age of fourteen, he got caught burglarizing a home and he was sent to the youth detention center, the Juvy. His brother thinks that he was molested there. I don't know if he was, But when Brian returned home, eventually he attempted to molest his younger brother, Stephen. Brian was bedwetter.
There are the three, there we go, there's the triad.
Even as an adult. Wow, yeah, he probably still what's his bed? Did I? Yeah? In nineteen seventy four, he attempted to kidnap a ten year old girl at a plea at a train station. He was arrested, but the charges ended up getting dropped. Now, Brian had an older sister and her name was Hillary, and in nineteen seventy five he threatened to kill her and chop up her young son.
Oh my god, he.
Vandalized her car. I don't know all the crimes he did, but he did a lot of crimes. He served timed at Menard Correctional Center from nineteen seventy nine to nineteen eighty two, where it was believed he was raped multiple times by inmates. Now, he ended up getting out in eighty two. And who knows what Brian did from eighty two to eighty four. But I don't think it was good. But I can tell you what he did in nineteen eighty four, what he spotted a nurse named Donna Sean
I think it Shanner. She was twenty seven and she was at her car in her car at a stoplet. He ended up following her and driving her off the road. He dragged her from the car, he beat and raped her, and then he drowned her in a quarry. Wow on June second of nineteen eighty five, and this is really sad. Seven year old Melissa Ackerman and her friend Opel Horton. They were playing outside and they were in the city about thirty miles from Naperville. Brian spotted them and he
grabbed Opal. Melissa started to run, and Brian, while he's still holding on to Opal, chased after Melissa. Opal managed to get free, but he ended up getting Melissa. Oh she's just seven, I know. He dragged her into his car and Opel ran for help. Opal was eight to provide the police with a description of Brian and his car, and ironically, an officer recognized the description of Brian in his car because he had pulled Brian over and ticketed him.
The day before because he had expired text So they look up the ticket, they see who it belongs to. It belongs to twenty eight year old Brian, and Brian was working as a machine operator at a hydraulics factory, so they arrest him at work. Two weeks later, Melissa's body was found in a drainage ditch. An autopsy showed
that she'd been raped and drowned. There was evidence of hair and some other evidence besides the fact that Opal identified him that linked him to Melissa, and Brian knew his his goose was cooked.
Brian, his goose is cooked.
So in order to spare himself the death penalty, Brian said, you know what if I tell you about some other crimes, will you take the death penalty off the table? And at first the prosecutor was like now, and then he's basically saying, well, I got like five no, I not tell you about So the prosecutor agreed. So Brian begins talking about some serious crimes he committed on May sixth of nineteen eighty five, he spotted a woman with car
problems and he's just being nice and pulls over. He has a knife with him and he kidnaps her at knife point, and he drives her to a desolated area where he rapes her, but he later lets her go. And this is a crime tree that lasted about a month. Two days later, he tried to ki and kidnap another woman, but she managed to get away. The day after that, he spotted a sixteen year old girl walking home and he yielded a tire iron and forced her into his car.
He in the car, tied, He took her to a desolate place, tied a belt around her neck, where he raped her and tortured her for a while, and then he drove her home. Really, yeah, he drove her.
It's pretty brazen.
Hmm, Like, what the fuck I know. In late November of nineteen eighty five, Brian provided state investigators with a statement about Jeanine. He said he abducted her alone. Really, He claimed that he skipped work that day and he was smoking some doobi. He's smoking some wheed and he was driving through Aurora. A neighbor Belle when he was driving around and he could see a young girl inside house.
And I'm wondering if he was the guy that knocked on the door and pretended to work for the I don't know that if that's.
Well, you're checking it out to see like if her parents were right.
So he knocks on the door and he goes in and borrow gets a screwdriver because she didn't answer the door. Remember she was told not to answer the door. He kicks in the door, he grabs her, and he drives her to a deserted trail where he raped sod of mindes murdered her. And as I said, this statement came as a result of a plea agreement, he'd already gotten two life sentences for the murder of Melissa Ackerman and Donna Shanner, and he was already in the pantia in
a correctional facility. So investigators don't know what to think, like is he telling the truth because they already.
Have right they've convicted two people, two.
People on death row. So they asked him to take a polygraph test and they asked him questions, did you murder her? Did you do this? And he passed the test, which means yes he did. Then there were fingerprints around the scene and they compared those to Brian's around Janine scene, and they were a match. There were seven sets of fingerprints that were tested and all came back to show that there was a match, but there were other fingerprints that weren't a match. But he says he acted alone,
so he agreed. So now they're like, okay, yeah, what do we do now there are other people involved? What is going on? So he agrees to take the truth serum.
Really mm hmm? Was it sodium, yes, pentathal or something?
An undergo hypnosis really to prove he was the only one that killed Cane and that cruise Fernandez, which Cruz was already you know, not facing charges for it, but Hernianda's and oh wait, I'm sorry, Buckley wasn't facing charges. Crews and Hernandez were sentenced to death. You've seen they're innocent. In January nineteen eighty six, a judge in due Paige County issued a gag order because they did not want all this information going out, and on December fifth, Brian
signed a consent to undergo hypnosis. He was hypnotized and he was able to commence authorities that he alone was responsible for Janine's death. Under hypnosis, no, he was. I mean, there could be fingerprints. I don't know, but I do think it was probably him because he acted alone. I mean, I know he did it, and he acted alone for everything else.
That's true all of his other crimes, right, And.
I don't think he hit a lot of friends. I don't know. I wouldn't be his friend. Yeah, So the court could use the statements of him being hypnotized against him. But he did inform investigators it wasn't a bat or a lead pipe that killed Janine. It was a tire iron and he gave that tire iron to a friend and that was under a hypnosis that he recalled that,
but they never found it. Yeah. He described in detail why under a hypnosis in the manner in which he blindfolded Janine, and specific details about the adhesive tape that was used to secure the towel. So he had the towel and then he had the adhesive tape, but at some point the towel was beside her, and none of
that information had ever been released to the public. He drew a map that showed where exactly he disposed of the boots that he was wearing during the murder, and they found shredded pieces of leather boots in a plowed field where he had directed them and a farmer recalled seeing the boots there while preparing his ground in nineteen
eighty three. Now, the Illinois State Police believed there was not a single shred of evidence found in the case that could really they still didn't want to believe Brian for a long time. They were still doubtful of his conflicting his statements. And even though they found all of this stuff, and the prosecutor ended up wanting to retry Stephen Buckley, really yeah, because they just didn't feel even though they were fingerprints.
I know, I just I'm not understanding.
Why would you waste the court's time on this if some guy is saying he did it.
And under Maybe I don't know, Maybe I don't know. But the good news is the Innocence Project took on Cruise and Hernandez's case, and both of their death sentences were overturned.
Oh good.
And as I said, Buckley, the prosecutors like, now I'm not going to let's see where else. They had appeal after appeal after appeal. It took a really long time. Just so you know, when you're on death row, it's not that easy to get out. No, even when somebody else confesses and they they have. Yeah, it's crezed some evidence.
It takes forever to get out. Eventually, the everybody was acquitted of all charges that couldn't be charged again, and they filed simpil suits, all of them did, and they were rewarded three point five million dollars and they got pardoned. But I don't really know. It's like meeting. They got pardoned, but they were like acquitted anyway. An execution date was set for Brian. Brian, Yeah, I remember he's in Illinois. Yes, Well, do you remember what happened in Illinois with death row? No,
you don't remember. M h. The death penalty was abolished in Illinois twenty eleven.
It was Yeah, I might have remembered that.
You might have remembered that. It doesn't even make any sense. I might have remembered that.
I remembered that.
So it was commuted to Yeah, don't you remember? It got all that, they stopped it. They abolished it, and they all got commuted to life in prison. So he is at the Pontiac Correctional Center for the rest of his life.
Wow, I thought though he made that plead deal where he wasn't going to be sentenced to death. I guess they sentenced him anyway. I guess, even though he confessed to a whole bunch of shit.
Remember I told you the prosecutor said no at first. Maybe he changed his mind. I don't know, because I wrote this up and I chopped it all together, and I remember that the prosecutor said no, and I guess I just assumed that he changed his mind because he confessed to all that. Yeah, right, but he must have gotten the death penalty. He must have, so I'm sorry.
It's got very confusing for me because there's like three people that were arrest did and then two were silenced to dad convicted and yeah, two were wrongly convicted, and one was released. And then the prosecutor wasn't going to charge him and then decided to charge him again and have a new trial. And then out comes Brian who says he did all these crimes, and I'm just like, what, okay, what?
So at least they know for sure who did it.
I guess he did it, right, and he's a serial color.
Yeah yeah, in a serial rapist.
And a serial rapist. There were other crimes that he did confess to that were considered less serious, But I mean, who knows what he didn't confess to, right, but the majority of this took place in thirty days span.
Wow, that's crazy. Thanks to Leah. You're welcome for that one.
Thank you guys all for taking the time to listen. Again, I apologize if it was confusing because it was confusing for me too. Again, check us out. You can see our video if you go to YouTube at crime. It's at Crimes and Consequences, and you can also become a Patreon or a patron. Go to patreon dot com and then the letters T and T crimes and you can join and get one hour every week or not one hour, but one episode every week at free.
And they're not released to the public.
And it's even more raw than this because we have to follow YouTube standards, yes, which is hard for us. We didn't say that many off bombs this time.
No, we didn't.
We didn't. It's a very sad story, by the way, I mean, don't take our our smiles and laughter as it's a terrible story. It's a terrible story. This is just how Tanya and I get through it. You also, if you go and become uh a Patreon, then you can get this story released early ad free. You can also do the same thing if you are on Apple Podcast, you can subscribe through Apple Podcast and get the same info.
We have our website, Climb to the Consequences dot com that has our merchandise, and that's it.
That's pretty much.
It was a little rough for me. I'm sorry. I followed you did I did because I lost myself a little bit.
I followed it.
Okay, well, thank you again, and until our next episode.
Don't kill each other.
Bye bye.