A listener production.
G'day. I'm former police officer Brent Sanders, and for the past 25 years, I've dedicated myself to sharing what I've learned on the force to the Australian public so they can better protect themselves from falling victim to crime. In this episode, I'm going to take a slightly different approach with my guest. I'm going to probe into the personal and emotional experience of policing and what it feels like to be with people, be it victims or perpetrators, on the worst day of their lives.
I was walking up and I was processing the fact and the gravity of just holding someone's hand with their last breaths.
Jason Semple started in general duties with the New South Wales Police, before eventually joining the Australian Federal Police Specialist Response Group, where he was deployed on peacekeeping missions in places like Afghanistan and the Solomon Islands. After nine years overseas, Jason returned home and step back into his New South Wales Police uniform. To begin this chat, we're going back
to 1998. It's Jason's second week on the job as a probationary constable with the New South Wales Police in Sydney. He's off duty and walking home with a mate after a few quiet drinks.
Um.
It's something it did turn horribly wrong, and it, um. I suppose no one's ever prepared for it, especially in law enforcement. You know, the risk is there. But, um, it's always that old story. Won't happen to me. And two weeks after coming out of the academy, I'm lying in the gutter, you know, thinking I'm 100% convinced that I'm going to die right there. Right then on a
Friday night and a wet, cold street in Sydney. So it was, uh, not the, uh, start to law enforcement that you're looking for, but we don't get to choose, you know, when these events occur. So two weeks earlier at the police academy, it was Friday the 13th, and I actually made a joke. Is anyone else not thinking this is a really bad day to walk out on our passing out parade? Been Friday the 13th. And so I suppose my joke on that occasion sort of came back.
Came back to bite me mate. I went into the police academy on April Fool's Day, so maybe there's a connection there now on this, on this night, 28th of February, you're with Peter Forsyth. Uh, Brian Neville. You'd been just out having a couple of social beers, and my understanding is you're walking back through Ultimo, and this is pretty close to to Brian Forsyth's house. You're within 100m or so. His wife, couple of kids.
Yeah. So, you know, we dropped Peter off earlier in his shift. In our shift, he had to do a prisoner escort flying a young offender interstate. And, um, I was actually really well behaved. I was drinking mid strength, you know, so no one was intoxicated. And, you know, walking back down the street, you'd need to take into account two that I was wearing my police uniform, but I had a t shirt on over the top, you
know quite clear to anyone in our business. You know, the criminals obviously have just as good at recognizing us as we are them. And a young bloke incredibly approached and tried to sell us an ecstasy tablet. Um, and I was actually just gobsmacked. The, I suppose, the forwardness of it. I think he was only about 15 or 16, and obviously because it was so close to Pete's house and some sort of activity like that's occurring near where you're where you live and where you've got young kids
and you're in the police. You don't turn a blind eye to it. So, you know, Pete, you may have been a probationary constable at the time. I just basically kind of watch and listen. And, you know, he had a conversation with this young bloke and then who indicated that the actual drugs were, um, with his brother across the road, you know, so a quick conversation, he's gone over and the offender has come over, obviously, to sell us the tablet in his mind at that point, you know,
Pete and Brian really took charge. Um, he was under no illusion that we were police and that he was being detained. And Pete and Brian were directing him to get some identification out. He had a bum bag, you know, zipper front bum bag on at the time, it sort of sitting on his haunches and he was just taking a little bit too much time, you know, rifling through the bum bag at that point. Pete. So I get up, you know, it's just taken too long. So if you're not going to do it properly, we will at a
certain point. Then he's basically said to the words, the fact I'm out of here, you know, and pushed off. And at that point I was on the far left and he pushed off. I pushed him back into against the doors because obviously he's not going anywhere. And, um, I felt a couple of like, punches, which I thought they were punches. So one to my chest and then one of my abdominal area and um, thinking, is that
the best you got? But, um. From a psychology point of view, my brain had not detected what was actually occurring and. Then I hear Bryan yell out, knife, knife, knife, you know? And he has actually pushed myself and Peter out of the way because he could see what we obviously we we didn't see. And as soon as Brian said that this is all happening in microseconds, right. You
wouldn't think it would occur. But I've actually even still at that point in time, I actually my brain starts putting two and two together and go, hang on is a knife. I've definitely felt some impacts and looked down. I pulled my shirt up and then, you know, literally blood was spraying out of my abdominal wound. At that point,
the offender has run off with Brian in pursuit. Pete's turned to me spawn a few times and basically laid me down into the gutter, and he's yelling at the top of his voice, you know, trying to alert any of the locals that are because there's people living straight across the road in those dwellings. Um, so he's yelling at the top of his voice to get help, and lights are turning on. So, you know, obviously there's a bit of activity. Then he's he's turned me sort of
leaning over me. I'm sort of half in the gutter, half on the pathway. And he goes, show me, because I've got my hand over my, my abdominal wound. So just give me a look. And I took my hand off and it's like obviously bleeding profusely. And he's, you know, put my hand back on and he goes off, you know, whatever you do like I'll say it how he said it. He said, keep your hand on that. And I was like, no, no problem. And um. It's the most surreal, life altering.
It's even to this day. The fear is tangible. You could pick it up with a forklift and move it around. It's a real entity anyway. A very short period of time elapsed. And Pete collapsed on top of me. And at that time I actually just thought, it's funny, you know, you're in shock and there's a lot of there's a lot going on. And I thought Pete had fainted because he'd been talking to me. There is no external indication that he'd been injured. There's no blood on him. Except
for most likely mine. It was one of those moments where it's a little bit confusing, but you become self-absorbed. I think it's the one time you can be narcissistic and think about yourself because you're in this position and. And it's quite dire. Um, I actually struggled with this for a long time afterwards, not thinking towards him, maybe like I should have. Right. But at the end of the day, you react in the way. You're only a young fella.
How old were you? Just out of.
Interest. 25.
And you had a second knife wound as well. Were you aware of that at the time.
Or at the time?
Not at the time.
So that one was directly over my heart, but the rib caught it, so it split the rib. So it did a bit of damage, but it never went through the rib. So the rib did its job as a part of your anatomy. Even if five millimetres either side of where that knife struck, it would have slid off your rib and going straight in and wouldn't be talking to you. So it's like, yeah, that's uh, that's quite horrific.
So Pete is lying on top of you. You're thinking yourself, I'm done here. I'm gone. Yeah. And you're thinking, I don't know, but you're thinking, I don't know what's happened to Pete. But he. Maybe he's fainted because of all the blood. Maybe something's happened. But you're not thinking. No, I'm not thinking. He's been in any way injured. Stabbed or anything. And then does Brian come back?
Yes. So during that period where Pete is, like, screaming to get people's attention. Yeah. That also triggered Brian as he was in pursuit to sort of look back. You know, Brian got down to there's a major intersection and the offenders turned right to go into a very busy part of Sydney and saw at that point saw that both of us were on the ground and then realized that getting the offender isn't as important as potentially coming back and looking after us.
When he took off after the offender, which is that natural instinct to do that. He's seen the knife, but he didn't see you or Peter gets up, so he probably had no idea taking off that you'd been expecting.
Us to be right.
Right behind him.
Yeah. And then when he's turned around and we're both lying on the ground. Yeah, he's obviously the enormity of of that has hit him. And he's always come, come back to us. Um, when he got up to me, um, I was still cognizant of everything around me to a hyper level, actually, I remember I was focusing on, like, there was a river of my blood going down the pathway, and, and I was watching it go over the, um, the
lip of the gutter. And that was, you know, one of those visuals where you go, well, there's no way in the world that I'm surviving this, you know? And it was just sheer like I said, it's a tangible entity of fear. It's a very overwhelming self-preservation. Um, period. Um, when Brian came up, he's pulled, paid off. Our legs are sort of tangled. And the next thing you know, Brian's doing CPR and I'm, like, going, what is. He had a heart attack because there's no wound. There's no
visible injury whatsoever. Of course, you can look at it now and go, you just got stabbed. Well, but it was just a sheer lack of, um, any external visible indicator. That was, I suppose, through the confusion for me. And you're not thinking it your best.
So Brian's obviously aware because he's doing CPR that, uh, Pete's in a bad way. And ambulances, the paramedics arrive. Ambulance is called. Who's first on scene at that point? Ah.
You know, there's a lot of things that came together, you know, as with a lot of tragedy, there's all these little intricate nuances that sometimes come together that put someone somewhere that x, Y, and Z happens, you know, and you think it's incredibly unlucky that x, Y, and Z came together in that person. This has happened to them. That can work for you as well. Yes. So by
Meg Gilchrist, God bless her. There was two ambulance buses if you want to call them, their crews from different areas catching up for a coffee, you know, Friday night, busy shift. You know, the type of work they do. It's incredible. So lucky for me, they were literally 60s away. So, yeah, I was really lucky. But you know, once again, the guilt, the guilt that I had to deal with later because when they arrived, they go straight to Pete and start
trying to give lifesaving first aid. And I'm like going, what is going on with Pete? You know, like, is it very confused? And then I'm here by myself bleeding profusely and no one's with me, you know, I mean, like it was like it's almost a selfish self-preservation, um, you know, mentality gets in, but.
You're also just dealing with the information that you're processing, and, and there's a lot of confusion there, and you're in shock and. Hold on. Yeah. It's it's not something you can prepare for.
That period of time feels like I could talk about it in a detail that you would swear it went for 30 minutes, but it's only two minutes. Yes. You know. Yes. So obviously the second crew come over and start, you know, working on me. Um. Well, I don't think I was really one of their best patients. If you. You know, if you talk to VI. Mainly because I was just so hyper alert to the position I was in.
So both you and Peter taken to local hospital, it would have been what, RPA close to there, I suppose. Yeah.
So we're not far away, which is in my favor as well. Um. What I didn't realize is, you know, before I was getting transported, um, the commander who was from City Central when he arrived, he looked over at the two of us and go, someone go get a dying declaration of me. He was like, there is no way his surviving those injuries, and not with the amount of blood that was around. Um, you know, when I talked to him later, he was convinced in his mind,
I was most at risk. But, you know, which is weird, because Pete had already passed realistically.
So he. Peter passed at the scene.
Yeah, he'd already at that point, um, that was still trying to stabilize me. And they and Pete had left in an ambulance. So that boss, obviously, if Pete had still been there, they were taking the hospital and still obviously performing CPR all the way there. When he saw me and the injuries and but, you know, he was obviously of that opinion that wasn't going to make it.
You lost, like, five liters of blood or something? Yeah, just on five. How many do we have?
I don't know, five liters. And you know the the circumstantial aspects again, you know. There was like a chief surgeon been doing some training at RPA that week. So in terms of the injury I had, he's delivering training to other surgeons on procedural, you know, improvements or whatever in that space. He's he was at RPA. So you know. You know, I roll up there and I've got this, this incredible, you know, surge in there.
Any pain at that point because you've not mentioned it? No. And that's that's a bizarre thing too, isn't it? That's sort of a scene. That sort of incident should be connected to being an almost excruciating pain as you're clinging on literally for life on the footpath. But you've not mentioned it once. There was no no memory of any pain.
No pain. No. Your body just diverts energy and attention elsewhere. There was a few times I felt things about it. I think it was just so there was the gravity of it was so immense that it overrode, you know, because at the end of the day, it's, you know, it's a cut through your skin. So it's not like I was broken leg or hanging off.
So at what point did you become aware that Peter had gone?
I asked quite a few times prior to going into surgery. It was like, oh, he's fine, um, he's fine. He's in the next room, you know, so there's a few little white lies, you know, said to me, probably hopefully calm me down. I was happy to know that. So I just basically stared at a, uh, one of the diagnostic machines and tried to control my blood pressure and my pulse, you know, trying to calm myself. And I can thank Mick Drury. Um, I don't know if you know who my crew is from the old Blue murder.
He's an.
Author now. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And he's a is a Neddy Smith.
Sort of.
Yeah, yeah. Out of that era. Like one of the most talented undercover operatives that probably New South Wales had. But I'd been reading his book the night before, and I got to a point where there was assassination attempt on him at his home in North Sydney. So I got to that chapter where I knew this is a chapter who gets shot in. And I nearly didn't read it. And then I'll go, no, I have to read that
before I go to sleep. So I read that chapter, and in that bit, Mick refers to the fact he's lying on his floor in his kitchen, bleeding profusely, even less understanding of first aid training back in those days. And he goes, he knew the only thing you could really do to give himself some level of hope was calm. If I stay calm, I don't go into shock and
I don't bleed as much. You know, so I'm reading that night before, you know, a lot of people say when a certain incidents occur, you know, their life flashes before their eyes. Obviously, some degree people have different experiences, but I'd rather use the analogy. It's like your brain, you've now got an issue that you really don't have any expertise to fix, and your brain's just searching for a way like a like you've done a Google search.
What do I do here? And so it's going to everything, every exposure you've ever had to trying to lock onto something. My brain locked onto what Mick had said in his book. And so that was I was like, um. Pathologically trying to remain calm. You know, even when people come up and ask me a question, I'd literally, probably rudely, a few times tell people to where to go because you're interrupting my my concentration on being calm, if that makes sense. Yeah.
And you go back to your to answer your question, I woke up the next day. So Saturday morning and you know, it's like when you come out of anesthesia, I've got the police commissioner at the end of my bed and, you know, all these people and, um, I mean, I had this level of elation that you couldn't, you know, this almost the same gravity as what? The fear I'd had the night before. It's like, oh, I cannot believe it. I'm here. And then the the follow on questions on Pete,
and you get told that he's actually passed away. So, you know, derails that, um, elation pretty quick.
And that's there's another emotion that experience called what you will that you just can't prepare for. So there's, there's the elation of I've survived matched against the fact that you might your colleague who was trying to save you has passed away. Would it be fair to say, Jason, at that time you experienced almost a bit of guilt? Is that one of the emotions.
Amount of guilt?
Yeah. Yeah. Is that still with you today?
Uh, no, because I've been able to process it, um, and put it in its true in its proper context. Yeah. Especially sort of really think about the true timelines of what was occurring at the time. Yes. Um, and there's no way to go back and change it.
But it's something that you carry for, for a period of time as you're trying to, as you're trying to process it all.
Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's a tough one, but it's just one. You just got to process it. And um, I suppose learn to get to some point where you're at peace with any decisions you did or didn't make.
So you eventually, of course, you know, there would have been quite a substantial period of hospitalization, rehabilitation, the whole nine yards. At some point you're back in that uniform. You're back out on the street. How does that look? How does that feel? 25 years of age, you've lost a colleague. You've come as close as anyone can ever come to losing their life. That's got to give you a different perspective. Things must change in your outlook. How does how does that work?
It definitely matured me overnight. Yeah. And I suppose just my awareness of everything around me supercharged, you know, because you do get complacent. You do get comfortable in environments, and you're probably not overlaying the amount of, um, potential threat that you're going to every single time you go to a job. Yeah. It's just like, um, now I'm in uniform, and I know that the most innocuous job can go so badly.
Ten years down the track, you take your career in a in a slightly different direction. You step across and join the Australian Federal Police in a very high level, highly trained environment. And that led to deployment in, amongst other places, the Solomon Islands. Can you just give us some background to that transition to the AFP and the path that that took you on?
Yeah, that's a job on the brush over quickly. But the you know, so after the, you know, the stabbing, you know, if you fast forwarding I'd been selected, you know, done the selection program and trained up and operational uh member of the New South Wales Police tactical operations unit and I was one of their branches, explosive, very trained
and a sniper in there. And, um, there was an opportunity to apply the same type of, um, tactical policing in a federal context with the federal police, with some deploy ability involved. So, you know, they wanted a TAC team, they could do domestic, um, whether it was counter-terrorism or serious crime, you know, serious organised crime and then also used as an asset for Australian government for overseas, whether it's, um, you know, a stabilisation in Timor or, um, Solomon Islands
or whatever the role was. So referencing Solomon's, um, my role in that operational response group, it was called at the time, it's now the Sri. So basically the federal TAC teams, myself and other guy ran their sniper capability. Solomon Islands was um, part of the the Ramsi mission over there. So it was a stabilisation mission after the military had got it to a point where it's reasonably
stable there. Then they transitioned over to a law enforcement led stabilisation program, which is actually lauded by a lot of overseas governments going what Australia did in that context was actually very unique and very successful.
And any of those deployments over that time that that come to mind, any anyone that can give us a bit of a spotlight on. Yeah, what you were doing there.
You know, obviously it's a very unique environment to, um, you're talking proper jungle. You know, it's the most likely place on the planet. You're going to get malaria out of anywhere on Earth. Solomon Islands is number one. There's crocodiles. There's, um, ex militia. We had a particular militia individual. And you've got to understand some of these. The Civil War they'd had, they're now over. So they weren't militia anymore. They were
just militia. So we had our like our top ten that we were just sort of systematically hunting down and arresting. And there's a there's another layer of complexity when you're hunting down people who are armed overseas in the jungle, you know, if we killed them, that's a deemed a failure. If anyone, anyone, offender included, is harmed or killed. So with some information to come in for that particular militia individual,
it actually come from a couple of our sources. And there reasoning was because they were terrorizing their village areas. I don't think that's sort of naturally inclined to dob on someone, but it was like, actually, we need this guy away from our kids and and our family environments. So, you know, we met with some guys, made sure that the information that they were giving us was credible, and then put together a mission plan that you would back
here in, in Australia, likely from a in that smack format. Um, so very carefully planned out, you know, missions requirements and who was doing what. We were at um, JBR in Guadalcanal. We were going to motor five hours down the coast stage 2 or 3km offshore, and then covertly insert 1:00 in the morning using, um, rubber inflatable boats. The sources, you know, that were going to be in situ. I'd given them some, um, like er asylum sticks and given
them some direction. Say, I want you to put it like, you know, this many steps apart, 20m apart. And I want you to hang it up, you know, at least you know. So six, eight feet in the air off one of the trees. So when we're coming in, we're going to have reasonably pinpointed where we want to meet you. But that's our visual recognition because just in case it changes due to some sort of environmental, um, and.
What you're talking about is, is these, um, sign points, if you will, that can only be picked up with not, not vision goggles. So but and you've got some folks, insiders in there that are almost guiding you into where you need to be.
Yeah. And those locals did a great job, to be honest with you. Some of the the locals would walk in with you at nighttime. Are you going, how is this guy doing what he's doing? Like I'm struggling. It's stinking hot. And, um, I'm using the latest, you know, $30,000 MG systems. And I'm looking at this guy, and he's walking with no shoes on, and he's doing exactly the same job. Yeah. I was like, going, you know, we might think we're cool, but that guy's a little
bit cooler, you know? Anyway, because we've got to be careful too, because the, um, as you'd expect, having some foreign team roll into your village, it's not going to be always, um, met with open arms, depending on where it was in the Solomon Islands. All in chain. So we need to do what we we do as quickly and efficiently and safely for everyone as we can. But we can't muck around either because, you know, then you
sort of introduce a whole different level of complexity. In this occasion, our quarry had an attempt to flee, but the measures we'd put in place, he was sort of wrapped up pretty quickly and without any, um, significant injury.
And then what happens? You take him back to Honiara or something like that, and it's. And he's handed over to local police. Yeah.
I mean, we're still in the middle of nowhere. So it's like, yeah. Quick apologies to the, the chief of that village. So, you know, we're doing this for your benefit just as much as the rest of the country. And then we just got out of there as quick as we can as soon as we got to our shoreline, you know, vessel came in because obviously it didn't have to be covert anymore. Pick him up, and then, you know,
they'd take him back to. Guadalcanal, Roosevelt Prison. And then we just, you know, make sure we got all our kit and get on their rubber. Yeah. Rubber inflatables. Get on the boat. Go back.
Might there be a lot of people listening, myself included, who would be almost surprised to hear, you know, the federal police actually play? That's like a paramilitary type of an operation. And, um, people do have an awareness of peacekeeping groups that have dropped into as they have been into Vanuatu and, you know, Solomons over the years. But that's sort of next level. And that's, as you said before, that's one of countless operations that you're involved in of
a similar nature. Some probably went as well, some went a bit pear shaped. And, you know, goodness me, what a what a what a period of your life that must have been. Yeah.
It's like I said, it's very unique for law enforcement at you know, the AFP does a really good job at actually um, I suppose covering off on those requirements. But they, they don't chest beat about it. Uh, it's very low key and there's good reason for that. You know, we can talk about it now. It's it's quite historic. They just work in the background and they get the results.
But like I pinch myself all the time going, you know, it's such a steep requirement on on us as police, you know, from um, even even the tactical work we're doing here in Australia. It's like another level above that. Yeah for.
Sure.
It's sort of up there almost with sort of SAS specialist services type of deployments for the military, isn't it. It's not. It's not too far removed from some of that gear.
Definitely the application of methodology and tactics. Um, obviously it is different. Of course, no one's no one's ever going to say any different, but the level of complexity you're using similar tradecraft. But, you know, there's some of the expectations on us from a results perspective and strategic and, you know, very, very different.
Mike, I know guys that have done peacekeeping deployments, you know, Zealand police like Australian police into Vanuatu and things like that. But it's mate, nothing like that. That's next. That's next level. And like you say it's it's covert for a reason. It's uh yeah. Yeah. So Jason, after close to ten years, New South Wales Police and you were deployed in a range of different high level units. You had a short time away from the job overseas, came back into New
South Wales policing. As is often the case, the punishment, of course, for going away as you come back into general duties, they. Yeah, they like to remind you that, well, you know, you've had to step away and you've got to pay your penance, don't you.
Yeah, yeah. It's so, um, I resigned for an opportunity working in Iraq, and I was comfier. I'd sort of ticked all the boxes with that activity. I actually rejoined New South Wales. It's like a two week rejoin program in New South Wales, as you were saying. And yeah, I found myself, um, in a temporary sort of holding pattern in general duties, you know, five minutes from home
on the Central Coast. And, um, to be honest with you, as much as I was not a happy camper when I found out that was what I was going to be doing for six months, maybe it was fantastic because I, you know, back in uniform, that's a core policing sort of, you know, provision. Yeah. You know, so you're back at your ground roots. But I'm back now and I've got kids.
So my whole perspective on everything has changed. And obviously I've got a lot more experience because I've done my tactical work and I'd been just come back from a war zone. So, um, yeah, it was a it was a really good, um, I really enjoyed it.
That's interesting, isn't it? Because like you say initially when you're told, oh, yeah, welcome back and welcome again, but you're going to be on general duties and it's a bit of a comedown from where you've been. It's almost a circling back to sort of 1997, 98. But but the actual once you got in amongst that, you're going, actually this is, this is why I joined in the this is sort of what it's all about.
And also coming back from a war zone, there was a level of, um, like peace, you know, being, you know, even in the frenetic world of general duties, which it is out of control. This is nice and calm. So yeah, I really enjoyed it and I enjoyed coming in with a renewed passion for it. Yes, and perspective. And I was very grateful for being there.
Now, interestingly, just on that, as you've said, you've come back from, you know, one of the highest profile war zones in the world, absolute carnage. You've come back into general duties and there's a sort of a calming feeling there. Then, tragically, you're sent to a job. You know, general duties, we know. You just never know what's going to come through the radio, you know? And things can be going along. You're there,
you're working, and then suddenly you attend a job. And it's a job that that can stay with you for all the wrong reasons for the rest of your life. And I think you might have attended one of those.
I was working on a Saturday with one of my partners, female partner, and, um, there was a job came on, uh, F3 freeway down near Hawkesbury of a motor vehicle accident. So, yeah, we copied that and made our way there.
From pretty rough weather.
A really localized storm cell went through really quickly, so by the time we got there, it was sun's out. Everything's, you know, quite wet. And there was a lot of water on the side of the freeway. And what had happened is a female driver, 29 years of age, coming down the freeway and just hit, aquaplaning her vehicle, and it shot through the guardrail, which is unusual. And it's quite a steep, heavily pretty dense, decent sized trees. So the car's bounced its way down. So it's going to
be quite a serious accident. Um, I parked up near where the, um, where obviously her vehicles pushed through the barrier and left my partner up there with the radio and everything and just said, listen, when everyone starts turning up, you know, you're up here. So I climbed down because it was really arduous getting through all the the bush. And, um, I get to the car and the paramedics are sort of trying to work. There's one paramedic there, and he's trying to work out how to get her out of
the car. And so he goes, just come here, hold her hand. And he went around the other side. And he was, you know, just working on and ensuring that the vehicle because it was jammed between two trees, that it wasn't just going to actually let go. And then
him and I would get injured as well anyway. So I'm holding her hand and she's sort of just like, um, you know, taking really shallow, fast breathing, you know, obviously very seriously injured internally, really pretty, you know, just like everything about her looked untouched, you know, um, so I'm holding her hand and just trying to comfort her. And it's like, um, it's a that's a lot. There's a gravity in that, you know, and there's a lot of
responsibility in that where you're holding someone's hand. And basically she took a last breath and I. So as soon as soon as she passed away, um, I've sort of deferred to the paramedic. Hey, do we need to be doing, you know, compressions? And you know what? What did he want me to do? And he goes, no, no, like, mate, she's gone. And because he'd already made some assessments and obviously, um, you know, he was. He was quite, um, sure of how bad you know, she was. And, you know, I
don't go into their world. So he came over and we you did another assessment, and he goes, no matches. Like there's absolutely nothing we can do. Plus she like she was sort of jammed in. So it's not as if we could pull her out and do CPR easily. Um.
The anyway. So yeah, she passed away and you know, so yesterday morning where I was like half an hour earlier, I was just looking forward to going down and around local cafe to get a coffee and fly the, the New South Wales Police flag around and um, then you hear and he and then he was like, wow. And anyway I said to him, I'm going to get back up to the freeway. And we're just, you know, I'd
have to make a few calls, crash investigation. And, um, and then we've got to obviously be able to recover everything as well. And her. And I started walking up. I got about halfway up between where this car was and the road, and you can imagine I literally grab and hold of things to climb, and I hear a phone ring in the middle of the bush. And I knew straight away. It's obviously a phone. You know, it's
popped out of her car when it's been banging. Anyway, um, it rang long enough for me to actually find it, and I picked it up, and then obviously, I'm not going to answer it, because then I've got to, you know, someone's going to say, well, why is this dude, you know, answering her phone? So I let it ring out. But then and then the message bank pops up on it straight away and it wasn't locked. You know, I just pressed play and then made the final error of putting
it up and listening to it. And then I hear this message come into the phone from her eight year old son, who's. She'd been away for a weekend with some girlfriends, and obviously she was on her way home, so he rang her and basically the message was, hey mummy, I cannot wait to see you. I've missed you so much. And then we're going to the movies tonight. And then basically every little trigger you could imagine like that would
really cut you to the bone. This eight year old kid said it in this message, and I'm standing there in the middle of the bush, and then the message ends, and I'm just standing there going, and it literally just floored me. Like it literally just sucked every bit of. Like air out of my lungs. And even now, like, I can still, um. Actually. Take myself back to that emotion. So I'm standing there just going. What? And I'll listen
to that message. And then, um, I walk up to the roadway and, and my partner comes over and she goes, are you okay? Because I was just like, you know, just in my own little world for a second. And then I just handed her the phone and pressed the press the message. Unfortunately, I had to share the pie. And I suppose, anyway, next thing I know, she's in tears. She's in the car. And, um, because, you know, I'd explained, you know, that, um, his mum has just passed away.
I was holding her hand. Um, so. Yeah. Um. You know, I've been involved and seen so many things over the years and so much tragedy and just like shocking stuff. But it's funny, the ones that really get under your skin, that one got under my skin because it was like, um. Just, you know, I was walking up and I was processing the fact and the gravity of just holding someone's hand with their last breaths. And, you know, it's just been, you know, talking to us softly and saying, you're going
to be okay. The same things that people had said to me, you know, ten years earlier or 11 years earlier, you know, where I'm laying on the street just to have the. The gravity of it, reinforced by that that woman's child. Um, and because of now I've got I'm placing I'm doing, um, uniform policing and I've got kids of my own. The reality of the of that area in police work just like, hit me like a, like
a brick to the side of the head. So, um, you know, just really, um, just come from left field and it doesn't allow you to set up some of those bits of armor that you normally get to start placing in front of you mentally, just like straight through to the keeper and, you know, touches you.
There's a real rawness about it, isn't there? And it's Jason. It's I just, you know, the honesty in which you're speaking about this because like you said, you know, coppers can sit around and you can tell all these war stories and all these things that that people who haven't been the job, people haven't experienced it, that almost disbelieving. And then it's something like that and then it's tragedy.
It's just such a simple thing. It's it's, um, you know, you're holding a woman's hand at the time of her death, but then the tipping point when the little bloke leaves the message on mum's phone and it's like you say, it's all that stuff, and maybe, maybe for you to Jason, there's that, uh, there's an unmistakable connection back to when you yourself were on the other side, almost, of that situation. You know, it's it's it's all comes in together, doesn't it.
Yeah, yeah.
And if you, if there's any silver lining to it, it's just the, um. Exposure to that level of tragedy and grief. The, um, you know, you wouldn't wish it upon anyone, but the one thing that I do draw from it, it's just the how, you know, precious and fleeting life can be. Like I said it, you. There's a couple of pathways you can go after. You know, you can sort of suck on your thumb and sit in the corner. Not that not the best analogy, but
I know what you mean. You know, or you can, um, you know, learn from it as much as best you can and, you know, try to pull some positive from it. And I suppose for me it's just like, you know, maintaining my empathy. Whilst wearing a uniform. Being grateful all the time because you're breathing. And, um, you know, just having a positive pathways to how you try to process it. Yeah.
I just want to thank you so much. This has been, um. Goodness me. I've just such enjoyed both meeting you and hearing some of your experiences, and and I just know that so many that will listen to this will take so much from it. It's such a storied career, but such a tragic start to it and all of that. But you know, for your honesty and opening up about that, Jason,
I really thank you for that. Um, I've read through so much of the stuff that you've done and the different environments that you've worked in, and we could do half a dozen of these and still only touch on the surface. And I say that because for you to have included that story about that tragic event with that woman passing in the driving, it just it just sort of shows to me the person that you are because you've come back to the humanity of what it is that, um,
police officers do. And it's not it's not chest beating. It's, it's, it's. And you said that yourself, you know, this was just a job that you attended on a Saturday afternoon, a Saturday morning. And yet it's one of those ones for all these different reasons that will stay with you for the rest of your life. And, uh, Jason, just thank you so much for coming and thanks for your honesty and thanks for sharing this with us.
Thank you very much for having me. And, um, there's a little bit of trauma in there, of course, but, um, you know, for any of the listeners, especially if there's anyone still within law enforcement, it's like, um, you know, if the only advice I would give is remember why you joined the police, you just be grateful all the time of, I suppose, the opportunity you have to help other people and never lose sight of that because it's easy to maintain empathy, but maintain that empathy for yourself
as well. If you don't have empathy for yourself, yeah, it's going to be very hard to do so for others. So yeah, thank you so much for having me and I appreciate your time.
Crime insiders. Detectives is a listener. Original production. It's hosted by me, Brent Sanders, produced by Ed Gordon and sound designed and imaged by Link Kelly.