When The Mouse's Away The Cats Will Play

Kitty daydreaming about being huge and eating you? Joining me today is cat behavioral expert Michael Delgado. Welcome. Thank you so much, Katie. I'm so excited to talk to you about this. I grew up with cats. I'm thinking about getting a cat now. I've just got a cat proof my apartment a little more um and something about cats that I've always loved is how cryptic they are. Now,

I love dogs. I think that it's amazing that we've co evolved with dogs and we have this kind of amazing communication, but there's something so cryptic about cats and and impish that I've always loved. So how how do you, as a cat behavioral expert understand them because they're so mysterious. Yeah, I mean I think that there's definitely this idea that cats are mysterious and I think to love cats, to work with cats, you do have to kind of accept

that there will be a little bit of mystery. Um, there's always going to be that weird behavior that none of us can explain, even when we've been working with cats for a long time. But I do think the best way to understand cats is too interact with them and observe them carefully and, Um, do whatever else you can to learn about their behavior. They're like. You talked about their evolutionary history. I worked in an animal shelter for eight years. I of old thousands of cats during

that time, observed thousands of cats. I really just spent a lot of time watching them, seeing how they reacted to things in their environment. And, as you can imagine, a shelter environment has a lot of stressors and what really piqued my interest was that cats could be so different in how they handled that environment. So some cats adjusted right away and we're like please adopt me, get me out of here, or like just make friends with me,

and other cats are really frightened. Um, maybe even we're so frightened that they felt the need to bite or scratch or defend themselves. And so seeing just those, those different responses, made me even more curious. Like I have to understand cats. I've read a lot of books about cats. Um, you know, it's got a PhD studying animal behavior and cognition. Did Research with kittens and cats, Um and home environments.

So it's been a lifelong process and I think if you think you'll ever know anything about cats, you should just give up now, because there will always be something that they do that surprises you. So I just accept that there are things that I will never understand, but at the same time it's a never ending quest to understand them better and make them happy. That's the most important thing, is to make your cats happy. I had I had two cats, grand speaking to how different they

can be. I had a boy cat and a girl cat and they were the most different you could possibly get. The girl cat was she was graceful, uh, an amazing huntress. This was sort of like back in the days where you didn't really think about the devastation the cat is doing to the poor birds Um, but she was. She she had a certain mystique about her. She loved me and let me pet her, but she also was very independent. The boy cat was completely different. He couldn't kill a fly,

like literally he was not able to do it. He would try and fail. He was very skittish. There was nothing graceful about him. He'd be afraid of his own poop, like he'd go to the litter box, gets scared in the middle of pooping and run out, and he was

just complete goof FIS. And so it was. I think it was so interesting because I modeled my idea of what cats were based on my first cat, the female cat, that all cats are like this, and then I have this complete Dow fist of a cat and like, Huh, okay, that's very different, and I think that's that's so interesting, that they all have their own personalities, and I think

it does. Are All animals like this? Like maybe we, just because we're in such close proximity to cats and dogs, were better able to like sense that they all have their own unique personalities? Or do you think it's something that's like unique to domesticated cats? No, there's actually a whole field of animal personality in biology that looks at. You know, everything from spiders to primates and everybody in between.

So we know that. You know, all animals have what we call personality, which is very anthropomorphic term, but you know, some people used it's like temperament or behavioral syndromes, which sounds like an illness, but it just means that you have certain consistent ways of being in different sort of circumstances. So if you're normally fearful in one situation, you might be expected to be more fearful than other animals in

a different situation. Right, that's like a personality trait and you can think about you know, certainly people are the same way. Like we know we can reasonably expect what one of our friends might do if we um joke with them or tease them. Right, and some of your friends may you may not be able to tease because they don't take it well, and other friends maybe you can, you know, just endlessly, you know, just riff with them

and they go with it. So the same as true with our pets, and I do think you touched on a very important part, which is just we have domesticated cats and dogs. We live with them, we spend a lot more time with them, so we know them much better.

But at the same time you also brought up something that I think a lot of people get stuck in, which is they base their knowledge of cats on a very small sample of cats, which is usually the one or two cats they've lived with, and think that all cats will respond to being picked up or to being petted or to being played with in the same way. And so it's really important to look at how cats are individuals, get to know them, give them the kind of freedom to get to know you before making assumptions

about how they will respond to different interactions. Probably one of the most frequent questions you get is can you train cats? Now, I think this is because, like you can train dogs, dogs are typically not all dogs, typically very eager to please. We have this kind of open line of communication, like I said, you know, we kind of CO evolved with dogs, so we are really have

this kind of like amazing communication with dogs. With cats it's a little more difficult, and so the idea of training a cat is kind of bizarre, like we think of sort of with cats like no, you can't, cat is not going to be your servant. You know you're the cat's servant. But it's I think also people are very curious about that when they come across like a cat behavioral expert, like well, can't we train a cat?

Can a cat walk on unleash, all these things that we think that a cat would not necessarily take two yes, cats can be trained. Um, it is different from training a dog in certain ways, because what motivates a cat is going to be a little different in many cases

and what motivates a dog. And you could argue that during coevolution and domestication of dogs that we have selected them for interaction, sensitivity to human gestures, sensitivity to our mood, maybe that kind of eager to please personality that most cats are not going to have. But at the same time,

all animals, including humans, learned in the same way. We we call this Um operant conditioning when we're doing training, which is just that certain behaviors lead to either desirable or unpleasant outcomes and that determines whether an animal is going to repeat that behavior in the future. So yes, cats can be trained and I think the most important thing to think about is, like why do you want

to train your cat? Do you want to train them for particular things that might help you in the future, like training them to go in a cat carrier on their own, for training them to allow you to trim their nails, or maybe training them to sit on a mat quietly when you're eating your dinner rather than, you know, climbing on the kitchen table trying to steal food from you. You can also use training just to have fun with your cats, so to maybe build a better relationship and

provide some mental stimulation and exercise for your cat. So that might mean training them to do cute tricks like high five or rollover, jump through a hoop Um, but you can also kind of take it as far as you want. I mean there's a cat circus in the United States Um rock cats, and I definitely recommend checking that show out if you have the opportunity, because you really see these cats are having fun and they don't always follow the script, but they can also do some

really amazing behaviors. So if you want to train your cat, there's definitely some good resources. We recommend using positive reinforcement training, meaning that you give your cat treats or rewards that reinforce the Beha Vier and um they'll be more likely to do that later and there's some really great resources online. But I will say it's very easy to train a cat to sit. When you ask them to. Well, they stay for a long time. It depends. You have to

make it worth their while. So you might have to provide treats occasionally to keep them in one place. But Um no, it's it's really not. The process is not different. You just have to kind of change your expectations a little bit about what that final behavior is going to look like. And you know, I think the other reason that people have this conception that cats aren't trainable is that a lot of the things they do that allow

them to coexist with us don't require training. You don't need to train a cat to use a litter box. It's pretty great. If you set up a litter box that they like, it's got a nice sandy soft substrate in it and keep it clean and it's in a location they like, most cats will just gravitate towards it just automatically. You don't have to show them where it is. They figure it out. And the same is true like scratching right. We don't have to train them to use

a scratching post. It's kind of like field of dreams. If you build it, they will um so, give them a good scratching post, give them several good scratching posts and put them in areas that they want to scratch. That's usually prominent areas in your home and they will just use it. So in that respect I think people, somebody think, well, they just do these things. I didn't, I didn't have anything to do with it, whereas you know, a lot of dogs you have to ask them go

lay in their bed or whatever. So Um so, I think that kind of contributes to it. But the reality is it's more of the human motivation to train and I think that maybe cat owners are not as interested in controlling every aspect of their cat's behavior. Maybe they even appreciate that their cat is a little wild right. We know they're less domesticated compared to dogs as far as the impact we've had on changing their behavior and

their appearance. So I think some people appreciate it. So I think you know, training, like I said, can be very practical. Train them to go into their career, when you ask train them to, let I groom them, train them to take a pill um or you know, for some people it is really fun to do them more, you know, agility, trial or more parlor tricks. I mean, as someone who's both a cat lover and a dog lover, I cannot choose between the two. I think I have

wonderful pets. I have always appreciated the difference in terms of the evolutionary history of cats and dogs. Dogs have this incredible coevolution that we've had where, you know, even though we feel like, oh, we're the ones selectively breeding dogs, in a way the wolves also we're kind of self selecting.

They kind of wormed their way into our hearts by being a little bolder, a little more gentle with cats, I think what I appreciate about them is they didn't really have to change all that much to fit into our society. So we kind of engaged in this partnership with cats where it's like, well, we've got grain which draws mice. You guys eat the mice and otherwise are pretty pretty relaxed, you're not dangerous. UH, maybe we'll leave out some fish and milk for you. Don't feed your

cat's milk, but in the past people have done that. Um, and you know, just kind of like this interesting partnership. They'd be on ships and eat our rats and they were, you know, very, very useful to us in terms of keeping pests and even disease at bay. And they didn't have to change that much. They are relatively I mean they are different. There is a little bit of domestication,

as we'll talk about in just a bit. But yeah, with dogs, it had, they had to go through a lot of changes to make them safe for humans, because if you try, even if you tame a wolf, it is still dangerous and it is not going to be a good pet. Yeah, and the chances of being killed by a cat are pretty small. They're much less threatening. Um, they're cute. I mean, yes, of course, lots. There's lots of appeal there. There's, Um, a new understanding, I think,

when it comes to cats. Keeping cats indoors is more humane both for wildlife, all the uh, potentially endangered birds in your area, and also for your cat. You know, it protects them from cars, from coyotes, other predators, Um, which you know, as I mentioned, when I was a kid there was more of this idea that you just let your cat outside and what happens happens. But now I think we're for the better, changing our view of that that you know, we should be both protecting the

environment and our our cats well being. But I think a lot of people worry like, well, isn't my cat going to be bored being inside all the time? Is it possible to keep a cat from being bored? Is it possible to create a fun environment indoors? It is, absolutely, but it requires some effort. So I think, you know, it's interesting. People do think like, oh, cats just go

outside and they amuse themselves all day. or The opposite is people will say like, oh well, they're a lowminance pets, so they can just sit inside all day with like

nothing to do, and there is quite true. So I think, you know, we are increasingly recognizing that caring for a cat is not just throwing some food into a bowl and scooping the litter box every now and then, like we kind of think of those things it was essential, right, like you've gotta feed your cat, you've gotta keep the litter box claim, you should take them to the vet once a year, like and that's kind of where the conversation ends and what we really need to be thinking

about is their emotional needs for social interaction, there needs for activity, mental stimulation, what we sometimes refer to as enrichment, and I think the only thing about the term enrichment is that it implies that this it's like a bonus, right. It's not a necessity. And so now we really focus on calling Um those those provisions for cat's mental well being in environmental necessities. So that would include ways for them to express natural behaviors like climbing and scratching and hiding,

ways for them to express predatory behaviors. So inside our home your cat can't catch maybe more than the occasional fly or, you know, other insect that might crawl into your home. They are not going to be catching birds and mice. So we have the opportunity to give them those outlets for predatory behavior through playtime with interactive toys. We can appeal to all of their senses and make sure they have things that are, you know, activate their

scent interests and that stimulate. Maybe sounds that cats like things to watch. One of my cats really loved videos of mice. So it's this thing about different ways to Um incorporate activities into their daily life that allow them to be a cat. Um You can also, I mean you mentioned this in the training part, like you can train your cat to walk on a harness and lead and take them out in your backyard or somewhere close to home that's safe and relatively quiet, not going to

run into dogs or anything scary. Um, we have a cadio at my house, so we we did make the investment in building a pretty big cadio about a year ago and that was a definite game changer for our cats. They love just sitting out in the sun watching. We have a bird feeder in the backyard and they can spend a lot of time out there just watching whatever

is happening, squirrels, birds, other cats, etcetera. Um. So the main thing, though, is you have to put effort into figuring out what your cat likes, Um, what they respond to, and trying new things, like don't do the same boring things every day, but introduce the novelty and Um, really

think of it as again, as important as feeding them. Yeah, I think that's so interesting because, you know, this is something that is maybe more apparent when you own a dog, like your dog will get bored and they will let you know, uh, loudly and shrilly and over and over again, whereas with the cat. I don't know that they are as I mean some of them are. One of my my cat binkie growing up, would definitely let me know if he was bored. But you know, sometimes they maybe

don't show it as much. Maybe they just sort of napple a lot more. But you know, we think that that's normal for them to an apple the time and but really, you know, they do need that mental stimulation just you know, they need they need soup for their soul just as much as they need soup for eating. They don't actually, I know they don't need to. They would if if we like them, but it was the

right flavor. I mean, you know, it's a really important point because I think a lot of cats do end up what we would consider like depressed, with John Um really becoming more focused on food. So then we have more overweight and obesity in our pet cats and probably a lot of that is emotional overeating from boredom and stress. So it is really important to Um to create a

fun environment for your cats. To me, I enjoy like bringing in a new cardboard box and putting some tissue paper and I see what my cats are going to do free television. It is, I mean it's it's fun for me, it's fun for them, and so I really encourage people to kind of find the joy in making your cat happy, kind of, like I said, of getting right. It's all about making your cat happy. So like to find what they love, if it's cat nip or Um, you know, a feather wand or both. All you know,

do something different every day to training. Like there's there's lots of ways you can add to your cat's life and enhance your relationship, and I think that is going to be entertaining for you as well. UH, there's there's nothing more fun than a cat in a box. I mean, you know, we spend so much time on the Internet looking at videos of cats. You can have that in

real life, right in front of you. Uh, we're gonna take a real quick break, but when we get back we're going to delve into the past of our domesticated cats and see how that has influenced their behavior, especially when it comes to play. So we will be right back. So we are back and I am here with Michael Delgatto and we are talking about cats, how to play with them, what makes some tick, and I thought we

would delve into the pasted lives of cats. So cats did not just suddenly rain down from the sky and into our laps. They were domesticated in a similar way to dogs, but also in a way that is a bit different, because they didn't really change all that much, and this is what is maybe the most surprising things about their ancestors. So the African Wildcat, Felis Libaca, is a small gray and white wild cat with dark and

sandy stripes, and it really looks basically like a cat. Yeah, it is very hard to tell the difference, especially when it's like sitting down and you look at it and it's like this just looks like a run of the milk cat. It looks kind of like Um, one of my that that cat binkie I had growing up. You know, it's like it was it fit his personality, he was he was something else. But yeah, they are found in Africa and some true in western Asia and they are

the ancestors of modern domesticated kitties. Uh, and the start of domestication. Now, correct me if anything any of this sounds wrong, but I think it was around ten thousand years ago. Yeah, we don't we don't know exactly. It's a it's always tricky to trace these back and there were probably potentially multiple domestication events. So again, it's kind

of hard to find the one definitive domestication event. Um, there some of the evidence is something like on the island of Cyprus, there's a grave, uh, where an African wildcat is buried not too far from a human. So this is evidence that this was a beloved cat, a beloved pet, and was buried with with a human, maybe its own or maybe another member of the family. So this idea that we had started to make this personal emotional connection to cats, uh, you know, at at the

very least, around nine thousand years ago. Yes, yeah, and if we could get that time machine working right now, we could go back and see the details. But yeah, exactly. All, all of today's cats are considered ancestors of the African wildcat, who still existence. Yeah, they're still around, and in terms of looks, it's really hard to tell the difference. UH, some of the subtle differences are like the wild cats tend to have longer legs, they're a little bit a

little taller, a little bit a little linkier. Yeah, exactly, a little sleeker. It's a very subtle difference that it's hard to see them tell you kind of are toll that that's what's going on. But in terms of genetically they are very similar. In fact, they can still they

can still mate and produce viable offspring. Yeah, and that's another reason to keep your cats indoors if you happen to live in regions where there are Um, some of these wildcats species like the Scottish wildcat, because actually feral cats are interfering with Um, some of these species and keeping them intact and can survive bowl right. So so, yeah,

it's it's a they're very closely related. There are some changes that happened during domestication, so we know, Um, there are some genetic signatures that changed and certain things in the brain that changed, specifically regions of the brain that have been related to reward centers and memory. So perhaps that gave cats a nudge in being able to make positive associations with humans because they had better memories and more intense reward responses. So, Hey, this humans leaving me

some some delicious food. Um, maybe I'll give them another try tomorrow and maybe I'll get a little closer. Right. So that might have just been enough of a nudge over the past, you know, several thousand years, to the point where now they're like sleeping on our pillow. That

is so interesting. I can definitely see that being behind the cats kind of, uh change in their attitude towards us, where it's like this this idea that, you know, actually, maybe it's worth it to stick around these weird tall things that walk onto like. And those cats would have been the ones that were, you know, willing to take advantage of those resources like extra food, would have been

more successful in reproduction. So, you know, I think, Um, you touched on kind of the the whole grains and the mice and Um, you know what what actually was happening is, Um, what was called the commensal relationship, which is that the cats benefited more than the humans did because humans already had other species to take care of the rodents. So there're plenty of dogs that will take care of rodents, and also weasels. So cats were like

another species that can provide us pest control. But you know, the thinking now is that the cats benefited a little bit more than the humans did. But you also touched on the fact that, you know, we haven't really imposed many behavioral changes on cats, certainly not like we did with dogs, where we had dogs kind of drift into different categories of well, this dog is good at pointing and this dog is good at guarding or this dog's good with livestock, and with cats it's just like, okay,

they hunt. That works out for us, works out for them. We never asked them to change that behavior and so thousands of years later there's still a very efficient predator. It's still very much part of their nature and instinct and we have not put any pressure on them to become less of a hunter, even though we provide all their food for them if they're living indoors with us. So it's pretty cool how we've retained that little bit of wildness and really haven't done too much to them behaviorally.

Now there's certainly you know, our domestic cats have a little more social flexibility as far as tolerance of other cats, whereas the African wildcat is a little bit more of a solitary hunter Um less likely to congregate in groups like we see with with domestic cats. But we also know that that congregation in domestic cats is usually highly dependent on things like the amount of resources in the

environment and their early socialization around other cats. Yeah, like when there's a high density of resources, cats will tolerate each other more. Even feral populations of domesticated cats will sometimes form these colonies where they're tolerant of each other as long as resources are concentrated in high abundance, whereas you don't really see that with the African wildcats at all. No, and it's a it's a good point. If you you know a lot of people with cats want to have

multiple cats right. So one way to increase the chance of harmony in your home is to make sure you have lots of resources, separate feeding areas, lots of litter boxes, lots of scratching and climbing opportunities in separate areas so the cats can kind of choose to share or choose to not share. Yes, I can really sympathize with that attitude. Actually,

Um and it it's it is interesting. So that those hunting behaviors that the African wildcats have and some of their other general behaviors are still exhibited by our domesticated cats, the stalking and hunting, pouncing, puffing up when they're frightened to try to appear bigger, hissing at threats, purring and mewing. But the mewing has become quite a bit different, right. Yeah, mewing is primarily an adult cats, primarily directed at humans.

So we believe that there's kind of a learned, uh, communication style between people that may be actually unique to that relationship even. But yet um, that's that's something that kittens due to mom. So there's kind of this implied like now and gets you attention, gets you caretaking. Um, and cats who have learned to live around humans seemed to do more of it. So they probably learned how to get our attention, get that door open and get the food in the bowl, whatever they want. Yeah, they

have US wrapped around their little paw. But yeah, I mean, you know, African wildcats don't really Mell at humans. Their meals seem to be, like you said, like when their kittens, directed at their mother or even if they're adults, in their mewing at something is usually something in their environment. And we don't really have great data that I know of. Maybe maybe you know more, but great data on why and when they mew. But it certainly is not directed

at humans, whereas with domesticated cats. It is very much we are the audience for their meals and there has actually been researched on how we perceived the difference between the meals of domesticated cats and African wildcats. And in these blind hearing tests, people rate the meal of the domesticated cats as sounding sweeter, nicer, more pleasant, versus the African wildcat meal, which they are not is not quite

as appealing. So that may lead some evidence towards this theory that they have tailored their meals to tug at our heart strings. Yeah, what's even Um even taking that even a step further, is that there's similar research looking at purring of cats. Now, they didn't compare different species, but what they did look at is Um different intensities

of hers. So a cat who was purring because they wanted food versus just purring because they're being petted, and humans, when they didn't know which pr they were listening to, could identify that there was something qualitatively different about the demanding per um. And so we, we are very sensitive to their moods and they probably, you know, they get reinforced for that kind of additional intense purr by, you know,

getting what they want again. So there's there's this really neat kind of interaction between humans and cats, and we've probably changed some of our communication styles to adapt to them. To write, like a lot of us, when we're talking to our pets, raised the tone of our voice. Um, we know that most companion animals respond better to that kind of Kitty, kitty, or you know, Um, whatever cute voice you use when you're talking to your cats. So Um.

So we do it too. Yeah, maybe. Is that why, like, I turned into a complete Du fist when I'm talking to a dog or like you are okay, just like saying the most obvious things, like these are your paws and they're like I know, I know, these are my paws. You don't need to tell me that these are your little tug paws. Guilty as charged as well. Just you can't help that. Lest we forget that the African wildcats

are different from our domesticated cats. Even though they typically hunt small prey like mice, rats, you know, small reptiles, they can take down larger prey. So they can, on occasion, like, take down a baby antelope, which may sound kind of shocking, but given that they're not that much bigger than a domesticated cat. In fact, sometimes they're smaller, depending on the breed of domesticated cat, but they are. They are a little bit more ferocious than our domesticated cats. Well, they

have to be, right. They don't have a food ball, exactly exactly. So, so, even though they look very much, very, very similar and genetically are pretty similar, it's just those few changes, the ones that you mentioned, that have brought us these, these lovely little lap cats who will pur and sit with us, whereas if you try to do that with an African wildcat, even if it is tamed, they would not probably have the patience for that. Not

The best idea. No, uh, so I have a question for you, which is, what do you think like the play behaviors we see in our house cats reflects the more wild behaviors of these African wild cats, these this sort of more you know, it's almost like, it seems like these softened versions of this like aggressive hunting behavior. Yeah, so, play and hunting have a lot of the same mechanisms and and underlying like Um basically causes. Right. So we know that hunger is a trigger for hunting and cats.

We know that hunger actually makes cats play more. We know that cats who are hunting are sensitive to the size of prey and that can be also influenced by their hunger and we see that in play with toys. Cats use a lot of the same behaviors with toys that they would use when they were hunting. So you know the clutch by the clutching and the next bite and the funny kicking, the leaping and batting the toy around. Um,

we see those behaviors when cats are hunting. So there's so much overlap that I think we can safely assume that when cats exhibit those behaviors towards a toy, they are directing hunting behavior towards a toy. We call it play. Um, it's fun. It's probably fun for the cat to and play kind of implies fun and Um. Yeah, it's even when you look at kind of the definitions of play behavior and animals, it's usually Um, a less serious version

of a normal behavior like hunting or mating or fighting. Right. So play implies that there's Um, that it's often them practicing for a more practical behavior. Um, in some cases they may never need to use that practical behavior. Right. Or cats, if there's spade, neuter mate. Hopefully they're not going to fight, hopefully they're not hunting, but they still have those instincts and so play is very much an

outlet for that hunting instinct. The better we do at replicating prey when we move toys or when we select toys, then the more likely your cat is going to engage in those behaviors that resemble hunting. So picking a toy that looks like a bird, that moves like a mouse, that moves like a bug. One thing I hear from a lot of cat owners is like, oh, we have toys all over the floor, he won't play with any

of them. Well, those toys are like dead mice. They're not moving around, so you're it's kind of like I always bring up this example because I was an only child, so I spend a lot of time like playing monopoly against myself. Right. It was like when your cat has to move the toy and then chase it, it's like they're playing aboard game by them. So it's much more

fun for them if we move the toy. Um, maybe they know we're moving the toy, maybe they don't, maybe they're just getting lost in the experience and their instincts kick in like that might be something I can eat, I better chase it and try to kill it just in case. Um, and you know, maybe at some point if you oh, this isn't a real mouse, like I'm done.

But for many cats they'll play, especially young cats, they'll play for a very long period of time, chasing that bird feathered thing around or chasing that cat dancer around. So really the best thing to do is kind of focus on becoming the prey, you know, like acting like a bird, acting like a mouse would would act, and think about how you can get those hunting behaviors out

of your cat. Right. The Butt Wiggle, the stocking, the pouncing, the leaping in the air, all of those behaviors are going to depend on your cat, their age, their health,

they're um what they're used to playing with. But most cats you can at least get some of those hunting behaviors out of if you take the time to move the toy correctly and find toys like yeah, I I feel like you can spend money on the fanciest looking toy, but if you take like a piece of string, tie it to a water paper and then pull it through like a tube of toilet paper. That's going to be an amazing, incredible experience for your cat. Yeah, I do. A lot of my cats do get board of their

toys pretty quickly. So we do a lot of rotation. Even within a play session and a half hour we might go through four or five different toys. My cats have been really into green beans right now. So I say a green bean to a drag and drag it around. They love it and they tossed the green being around. I mean it's like sometimes you just have to look in your recycling bin. Um, the main thing is just making sure it's safe for your cat to play with.

And any type of interactive toy with a string or a wire, you want to put it away so your cat can't use it when you're not supervising, because we don't want anybody choking or swallowing something. But but yeah, I mean, you know there's lots of things around your house like a small piece of fabric, a ball of paper, Um, you know, a twist tie from, you know, a package, like any of those things can be turned into a

temporary toy. I was we were baby sitting my sister in law's cat and as she found a ping pong ball, probably from the previous tenant, because we we've we have no recollection of where this ping pong ball came from and and so that that was quite an experience for her, just the the amazing bounciness of it. There was actually so the late seventies and early eighties there was there were a lot of studies of kitten play and there was actually study looking at different toys and the Ping

Pong Ball was one of the favorites. So, yeah, I'm just I'm just so impressed that she managed to like locate this pink this h I mean this poa was probably from the seventies to maybe this was used in one of those studies and she found it and made it her own and like carried it around with her brought it back into her bed. It's it's they will, they'll let you know what toy they like and just

defer to their wishes. I think is the lesson here. Yes, so we're gonna take another quick break, but when we get back we're going to talk about not an ancestor of the domesticated cat but a cousin and how this murderous, wild little kitty might inform us about our own cats behaviors in terms of how to keep something that just

loves to murder occupied. So we've talked about the African wildcat, the ancestor of domesticated cats, and now we're going to talk about a cat that is related, but it is not an ancestor Um, although when you look at it it looks like an adorable, smaller version of the domesticated cats. It's one of my favorite wildcats, the black footed cat, so cute. They are adorable, the one of the cutest wildcats,

very small and it's one of the smallest wildcats, I think. Uh, and it is also the most murderous of the hats, although it may not be dragging down antelope, it has an amazing kill rate, like a sixty percent kill success rate, which is very impressive. They're about a third of the size of a house cat, very, very cute. They're tan with these dark brown spots and stripes and they like, you know, their name implies, they have these little black socks on their feet. But that cuteness is a little

bit deceptive. They are extremely ferocious. They are sometimes called ant hill tigers because they are so fierce and they do not like humans. So if you think you can go up to one of these and pet them, you are not going to come away satisfied with that experience or within techt hands. Right, exactly. Yes, they are mostly nocturnal. They will walk incredible distances. So they can walk up to twenty miles or thirty two kilometers a night, which is, I mean like in terms of humans, that would be

like walking twenty five marathons a night, which is completely bonkers. Yeah, so they during all this walking, they basically slaughter everything in their bath, from insects to rodents to birds, plucked up right as they're taking off their M O is, ambush, stocking and pouncing. Just like you're domesticated cat. They do that Little Butt Wiggle, and that butt wiggle is not just to look adorable right before they murder something, that is aligning their feet so that their pounds will be

really effective and precise. They can kill fifteen prey animals a night, which is which makes them probably the most successful serial killers in the history of the world. That's about a kill per hour. So sometimes they love killing so much they will murder something that is larger than themselves, like Cape hairs, which they can't even really eat in one sitting, so they'll drag them back and kind of nibble up them over many nights. But they are just

such enthusiastic killers. They sometimes kill and then they're like, I don't know what to do with this thing. But the fact that they are so active, walk that incredible amount kill so rapidly means that, uh, if we tried to keep one of these as a pet, not only would your face be gone, but this cat would be so,

so bored. They would make terrible pets. But they are sometimes kept in zoos and this presents a problem for the ethical zoo that wants to keep them for conservation but does not want to have them in basically cat prison. And so zookeepers are constantly trying to figure out ways to help keep them mentally healthy as well as physically healthy.

And there was a study, uh, that researched aroma therapy for black footed cats, and so they offered these smelly smells to these black footed cats, like nutmeg, cat nip in prey smells, and they found that for the cats that were given this aroma therapy, they were far more active than the cats who were not given this treatment. So is this something that also works for domesticated cats?

What a fantastic study, Um, and you brought up a lot of, I mean a lot of similarities among you know, and I think when you look at all of the cat species you do see these commonalities in their predatory behavior and to survive. Our domestic cats, if they were outside, would have to kill eight to ten miles a day to survive. And studies have shown that Um, cats who were observed hunting did have about fifty kill rate. So, Um, I've heard, I've heard lower estimates. So it could be

very population dependent. And cats will also hunt even though they're not hungry, or they'll hunt even though they have a mouse in their mouths, right, because really, again getting back to their instincts, if you don't know where your next meal is coming from, you've got to catch well catch cat, right. So they just will take advantage of of prey that's available. And I think somebodys it's hard for us to kind of see our cats as a

as a predator. Um, if you've I had the misfortune of living in an apartment that had a mouse problem once and Um, you know, one of our cats was pretty ruthless. It always kind of made me sad. I think rodents are adorable. I don't really want to live with them, but I do appreciate them. So it can be kind of hard to recognize that our cats are

our killers. But, Um, to the question of the olfactory enrichment, I mean I love the idea and you know, we're so visual that I think we kind of get stuck in like visual enrichment and forget that for cats, their sense of smell is much better than ours. They use their smell in many different ways than we do, including

to communicate with other cats. So, Um, one of the behaviors that's very similar to their ancestors is, you know, doing things like you're in, marking and rubbing and marking their territory with their claws like those are things that are very important to our cats. As far as enrichment and smells that cats enjoy, every cat's different, but there are any of safe smells that you can introduce to your cat for enrichment, like you mentioned Catnip, and there's

also a plant called Matatabi Um. It's also known as Silver Vine and there's been research showing that more cats respond to silvervine than CATNIP and the response is very similar. So you get the rolling, the rubbing, the licking. Some cats get a little excited, some cats get a little mellows. So you kind of have to learn, you know, what your cat does when they're under the influence of CATNIP or Silvervine. But those are very fun enrichment. So now

there's a lot more toys that have silver vine. A lot of cats respond well to honeysuckle Valerian root, so those are considered generally safe. And then there's some other things like I mean I occasionally like to bring a leaf into the house and just let my cats kind of sniff it and play with it. There's food things that are safe for your cat to smell or play with, like the Green Bean. One of my cats really loves

to play with potatoes. So you know, I do think that one of the key environmental considerations is your cat's sense of smell. So not just things they want to smell or enter interact with, but also smells they may not like. So things like incense or like plug INS that are meant to deodorize. A lot of those smells are very intense, they're artificial and that can be very stressful to our cats because it covers the smells they're interested in, which is the smells they deposit when they're

scratching something or rubbing on it. And so we're trying to like often it's trying to cover the litter box smell. Right, the best way to keep your litter box smelling fresh is to scoop it and clean it regularly rather than, Um, let it get very dirty and just put a deodorizer nearby,

hoping that that will mask the smell. There have been advances into litter box technology, like there are these bins now that you can get that kind of like seal so like you can scoop the litter box and instead of because, you know, I think one of the thing the litter genie. It's like a diaper genie that like exactly, and so you can just like scoop it dump it right in there, so you're not constantly having to take

it the trash out, you know, twice a day. But then it's seals so you can't smell it and then when it gets full, you just take the whole thing out, which is uh, you know, since I haven't had a cat and like, you know, ten years. It's like wow, this is an amazing there have been amazing advancements in little technologies. So you do not uh, you do not need to use UH, like for breeze to cover the

cat smell. You can just and it's also that's better for the cat too, because they like a clean litter box. They don't want to they don't want to step on their own poopy, anymore than you want to smell their poopies. Exactly. Yeah. So, so, yeah, I always encourage people to try different smells. You know, beacept both ones that are kind of designed for cats and things that, you know, usually natural things that you

can bring in from the outside. I mean, I know when I go outside I come in, my cats always want to smell my shoes. Oh my cat. Yeah, my cat, mittens, the female one, who was all elegance that would disappear when there was a pair of shoes. She would shove her face inside this too and just half deeply, and it's she loved nothing more than the shoe smell. Yeah. So, so, you know, a lot of times cats will let you

know the smells that interest them. But, you know, I'll let my cats smell my cup of tea and maybe let them smell my food. You know, they're they're pretty well behaved. So and I'm a vegetarian, so there's nothing that they want to eat, but sometimes they just want to kind of check out China. So Um. So yeah, they do have this incredible sense of smell. And the other thing too, like about pray smells, which is a

really interesting question. Um, I know that my cats love the real rabbit for toys, which it kind of like breaks my heart a little bit, but it's they respond

differently than any other kind of foe for toys. So Um, there are places online where you can get like ethically firmed rabbit for so Dr Kristen vitally did a study looking at cat's interest in different activities and one of them was, I think I used Gerbil scent as one choice, and then they could either sniff the Gerbil scent or play with the toy or interact with the human and overall they did prefer the human interactions over the Gerbal sent Um, if I'm remembering correctly. But and yeah, I

don't know where people get Gerbal cent. Just rub a Gerbil against a cotton ball. I don't really recommend you know, keeping small animals in your home if you have cats, because it can be stressful for the res to live with a Predator in the same house. So, but maybe you have a friend with a pet rat or a pet JERBIL. Get some cotton. Can you rub your rat just for a minute? It's like, I just need to see to borrow your rat and rub it just for

a minute. You Tube so Um. So, yeah, I mean I think people can get creative, stick to non toxic, safe things and, like I said, there's there's things we know that most cats like, that silver buy and Catinet, Valerian and honeysuckle. So those are those are all available in products for cats. And I should mention, because I do say Roman therapy, but Roman therapy for cats is

going to be very different from humans. They're actually certain like like, if you're thinking, you know, giving essential oils to your cat, do not, because they're actually essential oils that are quite toxic to cats. Right, Yep. So I just want to be careful getting too and then you know on a lot of those oils are the smell is very strong and if it's strong to us, Um, then it's strong to them. I'm one of those people that doesn't like heavy scents. So I get a headache.

I feel that. Yeah, you know when I walk into like a cloud of incense. So I am probably more sensitive. But other people, you know, it's like they've got the air fresheners everywhere. And I was like, yeah, I sneeze constant, like when I go to a mall and walk past like the perfume counter, it's just I can't, I can't function I start sneezing perfume. And there have been studies showing that, UM, some felid species. I know, like I

think it's lions or baby tigers. Love Obsession, Calvin fully, yeah, and I think it's probably just how did they find that out? Someone definitely around right like started getting hit on by a lion. Yeah, I need to, I need to, like that's been a factoid sitting in my brain for a long time that I probably need to go like do a little more Debo die. But I know that there was a study looking at different olfactory responses and cats and I'm pretty sure they used m comm claim

ob sessions. So amazing. Yeah, so your cat might like your perfume, but that doesn't mean you want to spray it all over them right, like. No, you know a little damn, do you like? Their sense of smells much better than ours, so you don't have to feel like, oh, it has to be this like really powerful scent for them to have Um. Yeah, no, they are quite sensitive. Well, I feel like I have learned much more about cats talking to you. I uh, like I said, I'm thinking

about getting a cat. I gotta make sure the apartment is safe. Uh. If you have any tips on how to make try to keep cats from scratching furniture, that would be much appreciated, I assume. I assume leaving out lots of scratching posts, maybe putting some uh, material over the catch that they're not going to want to scratch, but other than that, I don't really know what. Lots of lots of treats when they use the scratching post.

I mean, I'd say the big thing is is having a few choices of scratching, like some cats like to scratch vertically, like upright, and other cats like to scratch horizonly, like those, you know, cardboard pads or whatever, and so giving them some choices, making sure they're prominent and giving them lots of treats when they do scratch appropriately and then, yeah, usually if they are still trying to scratch the furniture, you can like put a sheet over it temporarily until

they are directed towards the things you want them to be scratching. Keep their nails trimmed. Um. So that's where the training can come and hand me, Um, you know, positive re enforcement training and again, lots of treats, um patients and Um, you know, to be honest, like we have a lot of scratching posts and cat trees in my house. Um, we got a new couch. The cats

do not touch the catch. They're not interested. They like it's not even like they have so many other better options that I don't even think they see it as something to scratch. So Um, you know, I think that if you again, if you provide them with something that they like and give them rewards for for using it, then a lot of times they're just like not really interested. Maybe I'll get a Gerbil and rub it against a

scratching post. So before we go, there's a game I always play at the end of the podcast, which is gives who's squawking. It's the mystery animal sound game. So every week I play a mystery animal sound and you the listener and you the guest, if you'd like to try to guess who is squawking, it doesn't have to be a bird, it could be any animal. It can be incredibly difficult. I always like to preface it by saying that I would lose this game most of the time,

so there is no pressure to get this right. Um. So, uh, this one, especially now, this is I think this is unfair to you because this one I gave a very specific hint that is based on reading an article, because otherwise there's no way you're going to get it. I'll still play it for you and if you want to take a stab in the dark, uh, you can give

it a shot. I'm definitely curious. So last week's tent was it's actually good that these guys have an inflated sense of pride, and if you read Ferris Jaber's article how beauty is making scientists rethink evolution, you're sure to find the answer. So I'm realizing now as I'm reading this, this is extremely unfair to you, but you know it'll be a challenge. I'm game. I'm not afraid to lose. Alright, so, Michael, do you have any guesses? I love the sound. I

have no idea. I'm just gonna go with the frog. You are correct that it is a frog, so nailed it. I'll tell you the specific kind of frog now. Uh. This is the male Tungara Frog, which is a little semi terrestrial frog whose calls are highly attractive to both females of their own species as well as to frog eating bats. So this is, uh, an example of an

evolutionary trade off. So, even though it does put them a little more in danger exposes them to predation, the females love it so much that that sexual selection outweighs the danger of predation, and so this is a wonderful example of how sexual selection in nature can be so powerful it can cause males to do very dumb things that are dangerous. I love it, but that's amazing. You guess correctly. I am super impressed. You should definitely check out videos of these guys. All include a link in

the show notes. But they have these large inflatable throat sacks and it's really funny to watch because if you've ever like kind of with like a limp balloon, like pushed air from one side of the own out to the other. That's kind of what they look like, because they fill their their bodies up with air and then push it into their throat sacks and then kind of back and forth, and it's it's very cute and funny, these male animals. Congratulations to Joey P, who wrote in

and guessed correctly. Remember, if you have a guess, you can write to me at creature feature pod at Gmail Dot Com. So onto this week's mystery animal sound. Ah, the hint is there's nothing deadly or sinful about this cutie. Ah Ah. Well, so I'm gonna be honest. I didn't know that this is what these sounded like until I looked looked it up online. Do you have any guesses, and I don't blame you if you don't. Um, I'm

I guess a wild guest would be a monkey. Interesting guests. Well, I'm going to have to leave you on a cliffhanger because the answer to this question is going to be revealed on next week's episode of creature feature, but you can rest on your laurels for guessing that. That uh, the previous sound as a frog. Very cool, Michael. Thank you so much for joining me and answering all my

questions about cats. I hope everyone out there who has a cat or who wants a cat learned a little bit about how to please your cat, how to make your cat happy. The most important question to answer. Where can people find more stuff from you? Yeah, I have a blog, which is what your cat wants, dot com, so that's you can get in touch with me there.

I've got, you know, contact bomb. I've got lots of articles, most of reviewing scientific papers about cats and translating that science so that people can better understand how research applies to their own little tiger in their bed Um. So really enjoy science communications. So that's a good way to by name. Thank you so much for having me. I had a lot of fun. Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on. And if you're enjoying the show and you want to leave a rating or review, that would

make this cat happy. You can't see, but I'm pointing to myself. Uh It. Maybe it'd make your cat happy as well, because it'd be like wow, yeah, it's great of you that you left those reviews. UH, most likely your cat doesn't care whether I get roots, but it helps me out, so I appreciate that and thanks so much to the space classics for their Super Awesome Song EXO Lumina creature. Features of production of I heart radio.

For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit the I heart radio APP apple podcasts or hey, guess what, if you listen to your favorite shows, I don't judge you. Your cat judges you a little bit, but me, I don't see you next Wednesday.