Transformers (Octopuses In Disguise)

Discover this and more as we answer the age old question how many legs does a frog have? Hint it's not always. For one of the most incredible transformations occurs in the womb. Two separate gam meets combined to form a new life. It's an incredible inspiring process, and we all begin as a tiny mouth butt doughnut. That's right, at one point in your life you were a simple little taurus a mouth and an us and a digestive tube. And while suddenly find the anus to be a distasteful topic,

it's actually vitally important for all life on Earth. That's why it's one of the earliest structures to be formed. So there you are a little more than a macaroni noodle. What's next. There are three basic layers. The crust well the ectoderm, which eventually becomes the skin, hair, nails, and nervous system. The mantle, which is really called the mesoderm layer,

which will become the longest circulatory system, skeleton, and muscular system. Finally, there's the core, which is actually called the endoderm layer, that will become the digestive system liver, pancreas, and lungs. What's so interesting to me is that when you look at the early embryos of animals, like those of fish, lizards, birds, mammals, and primates including humans, they all look kind of similar,

like weird little alien worms. In fact, humans and other lung having animals start with gill slits, things that in fish would become gills, but in human and other terrestrial animals become the inner ear structure. In fact, gills are pretty versatile, and insects, it's believe gills evolved into wings. Fetal development is a kind of weird micro evolutionary journey.

Many atavistic traits, meaning traits that are an evolutionary throwback, are president in embryos, like tails and gills, and humans or teeth and chickens. It's a stunning reminder that we all oozed out of that same primordial chili, and that we're not really a redesign of our fishy ancestors, but a fun, up cycled, reclaimed animal. Joining me on the show today is Anna and Sharene of the excellent podcast Ethnically Ambiguous. Welcome you guys, Hello, thanks for having uh

of course super excited. Are you guys ready to hear about some weird animal? So I like to go on an imagination journeys on the show. Um, so if you guys could transform into something, what what would it be like? What would be you know, animal vehicle anything? Just like my cat? Cat? Yeah, that was quick time. Why a cat? Um, I'm just very cat like and I like to sleep and I like to just kind of like roll around and like rub up on people's legs. That's yeah, I've

noticed that about you be a little jarring. I'm incredibly unprofessionally. Um, maybe like a puffin because they can swim and they can fly and they can walk nice and I would have the best of all worlds. Yeah, you can also fit a lot of fish in your beak. Yeah, you love that. Yeah, I love I love some good snack poucher. Have a backpack here. Um, well, I would probably be a C squirk because so we've actually talked about um this before on the show. It's this little uh marine animal.

It's a tunique, which is a type of Yeah, well it's weak, it's a it's a wiggly jelly animal. Um so. And they go through this process called DRetro aggressive metamorphosis where they start out as a free moving tadpole and then it turns into it's essentially just a stationary tube that attaches to irock and passively filter feeds for the rest of its life. M Why did you want to be back? Because it's fun to be lazy, to just

be like fed all day and chill out. Yeah, big, just stuck on this tube, stuck on this to um. They don't have an exoskeleton. That's what they are invertebrates. Oh my god, how could I Why did I forget that word for so long? Invertebrate. So there's a species of C snail that goes through a metamorphosis similar to the C. Squirt um and it never has to eat again. Um So, it's called called a giganto Pelta cessiya, which

I'm sure I pronounced that. Fine. I think everybody's gonna tweet at me, like like it's actually pronounced frank um, like like new to branches sound like they should or look like they should be pronounced new to branch. But I learned their new to branks bran. Yeah, frank the new to BRNK you right exactly. Um. So it's a sea mollusc who lives near Antarctica, near the thermal vents

on the ocean floor. Uh. They go through something called crypto metamorphosis, which is, uh, it's a change that we can't see on the outside, but inside the snail is going straight to nightmareland. It's well, it sounds like my life. Uh. So once the snail gets big enough, it's digestive system stops growing. Um, a huge esophageel gland forms uh. Forcing aside the snails teeth, stomach, and intestines. So humans we

have esophageel glands. It's part of the digestive system. It produces mucus for the esophagus and for lubrication and to protect it from stuffun acid. So you've always got snot in yeah, um and the giganta Pelta chess oya. These glands take on a very different function. Bacteria will start to grow in the huge, bloated glands that now take up most of the snail's body. Um. The New York Times makes a really disgusting analogy quote to make a

human comparison. Imagine growing from an average sized adult to one thirty to sixty ft tall with a giant sack of bacteria living inside you. I don't think I will New York Times like giant sack of bacteria inside me? Well, blee, that's that sounds like a it's a weird insult, like your giant sack of bacteria. It's like, uh so uh the snail will stop eating. At this point. The bacteria living in it's esophagel gland are in a symbiotic relationship

with the snail. The bacteria produces energy that the snail cell can use. It's just like, oh, I see okay, it's off of the sac Basically, yeah, like ever needs to eat again, It doesn't need to eat it anymore because like the bacteria is doing all the work. And then in exchange, the bacteria has a cool sack to live in. Yeah, I feel like we should do that as humans and stop eating just like have bacteria like

eating for us, just be giant sacks of bacteria. That that would be a that would be like if Wally really wanted to take it to the next level, like to show the truth of like humans just being bacteria sacks that don't need it, that are like attached to the walls of the ship and don't need to really eat anything. I could see that being like a new dietary thing in l A like, oh now I'm actually

not eating because I have that bacteria sacing site. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, just healthcare, I don't know, I don't know. Definitely a privatized company sort of thing, like you would like make little handbags for it or like little like satchels, like like people with like fashionable little like iPad cases right right right, like like some kind of Oh this is my bacteria. I learned it from Goop. Yeah, I got a really cute patch for it on Etsy. That's

that's disturbing. That's I'm sure it's going to happen though. Um So this is actually a similar feeding strategy to another animal that lives near thermal vents. Called get tube worms. Also, can I curse? Yes, okay, cool, but I have not been cursing. I can continue. No, you're fine, you're fine. Um, I mean like we're talking about giant sacks of bacteria. So I feel like, you know, if that doesn't make you go like, oh like that, I just wanted to

confirm because I felt silly. No, you're fine. Um so uh the so the tube worms, which sound about as lovely as they are. They look like big, colorful PVC pipes, but they're they're live animals. Uh, they're cute, little existence. Yeah, just like just being a pool noodle. You know, I don't know that sounds like that sounds like how big? Heard these worms pool noodle size? Oh they are? Yeah,

they're pretty big. Holy crap. Yeah, cald worms not like anacondas or snakes like eels kind of right, eels are pretty big. Eels are big. But animals. I don't know how to break this to you guys, but animals aren't named based on the size category that they're um. But so they're immobile, which uh, scientists call sessile, which I don't know why they have to have to make complicated words. Yeah, especially with one with so many says it's bad for

podcasts styles. Um. So they also get all their energy from symbiotic bacteria living inside their tubular walls. Are these are both of these bacterias that grow inside these animals? Are they foreign bacteria? Are they like found there like produced in the body? Yeah, so there they are, except their foreign bacteria that will uh grow inside the body. So everyone has a bacteria living inside of them. Um. But it is technically it's not something that like came

from you're like when you're formed as a baby. It didn't come from so that it's not your bacteria. It's for in bacteria that just sits there forever. Yeah. I mean it's like it's in an indosymbiotic relationship with you, which means it's symbiosis symbiosis but happening inside your body.

Um yeah, it's actually what so like like babies haven't developed a lot of gut bacteria yet, they can be really sensitive, uh and they can't like sort of ingest certain things, and um, like that's one of the reasons you know, it's until you like not to eat fish

or something. Yeah. Yeah, because like you got back to it's also why you shouldn't get Yes, you should not get you shouldn't get an enema or unless it's like medically necessary, because like if people do that, like you can actually flush out the good bacteria in your intestine, and people become addicted to those, so they like really like to have clean little whistle down there. Apparently, Yeah, they get addicted to it because it's the feeling is

like weird, it's like a rush in a way. I don't I mean I've never had one, but get high on feeling there butts. But I also but I also think enemas are more common depending on what kind of sexs you like. M I I mean that makes sense. I think for that though you don't you wouldn't need to have like an X stream one. I don't. I don't want to, like you don't want a full colonoscopy

before you but I feel like I don't know. I mean, yeah, it's but I think people sometimes do these like cleanses to another bad one is like like the cleanses that make you have a lot of diarrhea, Yeah, like those detox Tayah celebrities Like yeah, yeah, Like like I it's basically just a bunch of mineral oil that makes me crap for twenty four hours. That's it's not good for you. That's shooting yourself. That's that's like, that's eating ketoba too much. Actually,

Ketoba's okay, I take that back. Um, taco bell, What's what's what's a What's a good one? That the one that always gets me? I feel like in and out always gets me. Actually, yeah, I don't know what it is about in and out, but it gets me. Gets me every time. It's always a It's like it's not

even a gamble at this point. It's just like I will I will have to sit on a toilet, yeah, and sort of think about the decision I've made and usually regret it for a while, and then I forget about regretting it, and then I go back to in and out. That's how I am a taco Well, yeah, I always forget. It's like, within fifteen minutes of finishing food, I'll be like, yeah, like, oh jeez, this is a it's a It becomes a situation and you're like, I don't why did I put myself in this intestinal situation?

And then you're and then it's like a week later you're like, but you look so good. I don't know. It's like it's like a toxic relationship where you're just like, you know, it's like I've forgotten how what you do to my intestines. That's why we need our bacteria bags. Yeah, yeah, they'll solve everything. Yes. The freakish gigantic pelticis soil bacteria balloon, as well as the giant tube worms, maybe guides to

how all complex life on Earth form. The symbiotical relationship between these animals and the bacteria that feels them may be analogous to how early eukaryotic cells acquired mitochondria, the powerhouse of the cell. A leading scientific theory proposes that early eukaryotes acquired a separate organism, a mitochondria, and somehow engulfed and entered into an endosymbiotic meaning symbiosis, but inside of you relationship with them, the mitochondria became the organelles

that are so vital for complex life. I want to talk a bit about the incredible woman who discovered how giant two worms are able to survive with no plainly observable digestive system, living in the dark depths of the ocean where no energy producing sunlight can reach calling Kavanaugh, who is currently an eminent professor of biology at Harvard, was a first year graduate student at Harvard in nine

studying biology. She was out of lecture at the Smithsonian Institution where the curator of worms was talking about the mystery of the two warm At this point, Kavanaugh jumped up and shouted out, well, it's perfectly clear they must have sulfur oxidizing bacteria inside their bodies. At first, she was dismissed and told to sit down. Fortunately for everyone in the warm biology world, she wasn't the sitting kind of gal. She discovered the symbiotic connection between energy producing

bacteria and the two barns. More recently, she's challenged the current theory of the beginning of life that started with a soup of ingredients being struck by lightning. Instead, she thinks that perhaps the thermal events were the perfect place to provide fuel for nascent life. She says the idea makes sense because some of the oldest forms of free living bacteria shows signs of being heat loving organisms. She's made the scientific community rethink some basic assumptions. Thank goodness,

she didn't sit down. Well, maybe she sat down at one point, you know, like when her legs got tired. You all stay sescile in your chairs. It's a you know, revolutionary biology group joke. Yeah. Anyways, we will be right back after this message. Do you ever wonder where the term slick Willie came from? Not former President Bill Clinton, but Willie Stunton, the slickest bank robert, trickster and prison escape thee ever to walk the streets of New York.

By some, he was considered to be a Robin Hood like figure, stealing from the rich to give to well himself. He never murdered anyone, and in fact was purported to carry an unloaded gun to his bank robberies worried that someone might get hurt. Other than his genteelness, he was remarkably well slippery guy. He was put in prison in one only to escape a year later, smuggling a gun and holding a prison guard hostage until he could get his hands on a ladder to escape. This was his

most brute force type of escapade. As he became increasingly crafty, he and an accomplice tried to rob the corn Exchange Bank and Trust company. Willie was disguised as a postman. This attempt didn't work, though they later broke into the bank through a skylight, successfully FBI record state. Stutton also conducted a Broadway jewelry store robbery and broad daylight impersonating a postal telegraph messengers. Stutton's other and does guises included

a police officer, messenger, and maintenance man. Usually arrived at banks or stores shortly before they opened for business. Stutton was caught again in nineteen thirty four and sentenced to twenty five to fifty years in prison. A year later, he escaped via tunnel, but was caught the next day. This time he was sentenced to life in prison, but two years later he escaped again, just as a prison guard when the searchlight landed on him. Yield. It's all right,

so nobody has stopped him cool. He even made an attempt to escape from prison by using a dummy head. Over years, he carefully crafted a shockingly lifelike head in hand out a plaster. He used plaster he likely stole from the prison dentist, real human hair collected from the barber shop, real eyelashes, and paint from god knows where He put the head on his pill in the hand on the bed sheet to make guards think he was

still tucked in bed while he was actually trying to escape. Unfortunately, his escape was foiled by a group of bumbling himmates who are also trying to escape and who are much less artful at it. When animals are feeling pinned down by the fuzz, they often have incredible escape strategies, including transforming their bodies into amazing disguises. To see the absolute master of this, We're going to go underwater to me

to really really slick Willie. Do you guys want to see the yet the curious I was literally just thinking, how does one like did the paper machee? It's plaster and it's actually really good, and I feel like maybe he uh uh, he might have used his own face as a model, so there it is. Whoa, yeah, I think he will probably like he had a buddy like put it over his face and like dipped his and made like a plaster casting. Um, it's pretty impressive, Yes

it is. And it's like also the paint job is pretty good too, Like it's it's hard to do sort of human skin tones. I don't know how he did that, but like apparently he took years to do it. This was on the Antique Road Show and it's like yeah, it was like it's also made out of human hair and eyelashes. I wish I remembered. Probably they're probably something like, well, if it was in its original condition, that would have been two million dollars. But because there's a small scratch

under the left nostril, it's actually costing you money. Yeez. Classic Antiques Road Show, God, I love I mean I used to love that show and like just but there was something about like watching the light go out of an elderly person's eyes as they realized their antique furniture like that they refurnished, like it is now worthless. I don't know, it's it's art. I think it's like I wan, they're always like yeah, I don't think this is real, and just I've never seen good. You could watch it

for hours because the stuff is so random. It is. It's like it's like here's an eighteenth century dill though and now here's like actually they don't know. But then they'll be like people who come in and say I'm gonna watch now, they'll be like people come and go like this is a letter my great great grandfather wrote to my great great great whatever grandmother on Hitler Stationary right when they broke into his office and saw that he'd been killed, and you're like, what the fuck? How

did you get that? But also like hippy Wheel, well, my grant is my grandpa was a Nazi. Also like who like goes in Tyler's office. It sounds like, I guess I'll just write a note to my wife, just like yeah, Hitler's finger, Hitler needs no underpants. Yeah yeah, comes to sail. That's probably worth more money. Oh yeah, it's like poopy underpants. Gross. So there's actually there's this

reality show I've been watching called Hunted. Um there's a BBC version and I guess the US version, but I've been watching the BBC version and it's like you have

to like go off the grid. Uh so uh, like they make people like, oh, you're being hunted by the government, and like we're going to use all of these like like and they have so many like like those CTV cameras in the UK, Like I feel like they're even more highly surveilled than here in the US, although well maybe just in terms of the cameras, um, all the cameras we can see that is if you but like,

um uh so they have to. Like the goal is like they'll win like a half million dollars if they can make it through a week without being found after being dropped off. And it's really creepy show because like barely any of them can do it, because it's like it's just like, oh, look how much the government can like surveil you, like they can. Have you seen an episode where someone made it? I haven't, No, not. They

always get caught pretty much. I haven't seen. I mean I am not through the season yet, so maybe someone makes it, but so far everyone's been caught. And it's stuff like like we got your like riding on the train and we got a picture of your face through like a camera, and like what if you just like

stay put the whole time? Well, I mean I thought about that, like if I like, I feel like, I mean I don't know how much prep time they're given, but I feel like I would give I would find a body double and then have them do all the things like take like you get like a bank card that you're allowed to use, but then they can track the bank cards, so every time you make a withdrawal, they can see where you are so like you can't use cash. I mean you can withdraw cash from the

A T M. But right exactly. And it's it's crazy like how much they can like they can read like license plates and like like they have drones that they can use and like he it's just I feel like the show is meant to be like see how cool like government crime fighters are, and to me, it's just like this horrifying dystopia of Like to me, it's like if you like never commit a crime or need to do this in real life, and you will get caught, right right, do you think the guy with the plaster

head what's his name, slim, Willie Stutton, Willie Stunt, do you think he would have been caught? I don't know. He was pretty like he had the kind of charisma where he was able to tell prison guards like it's okay when he was escaping, oh my god, like because he was like dressed as a prison guard and like a spotlight was on him, He's like it's all right,

nothing to see here. It almost sounds like, I mean, not not the same caliber of crime, but like Ted Bundy almost was like charismatic enough to multiple times and yeah, like he literally jumped out of a window, like out of a court one time. Yeah, and was fine and was it like it was gone for like a week. Yeah, the he was able to like be his own lawyer and without anything and then and the judge was like, I'd hire you. It's crazy messed up? How like it's

missed up? How far a charismatic white guy, Yes, yes, like a sort of mediocre white guy can get away with so much, like just by being like no, no, no, it's okay. And he's got like piles of humans heads behind exactly. You guys, wanna you wanna look at like a non serial killing master of deception. Yeah, I want to see the Willy of the ocean. Yeah, that slick Willy of the ocean. Um So, the mimic octopus is one of the most incredible um cases of animal mimicry

I've ever seen. It's uh so octopuses um can change their skin color and even the texture of it. So they're kind of like chameleons boat way quicker um with way more precision. Um. Like you know how people think, like, oh, chameleons when they walk on like a different color, they can change their color like that's not true, but are not. No, No, I mean they can change They can change their skin

color a little bit. It's usually more in terms of like when they're mating or their mood, Like they can change their skin color and they can change it a bit to match tree bark, But they don't have like a vast repertoire of like color will change pink, that's right, um, But octopuses and cuttlefish are more like that, Like I don't.

It depends. So it's like I don't know if they can turn bright pink, but they can change their skin to patterns that they find, so you can see their skin link pulsate in real time like an LCD screen to match their surroundings. So even artificial surroundings like a checkerboard. Cuttlefish will attempt to make black and white squares on their body ease, like it doesn't quite match up. They're not like they try, like you can see blocks of black and white. Um. So, the mimic octopus takes this

a step further. They not only transform their skin, but they move their entire body, tentacles and all to mimic the shape of other animals. Um. So, first about this little little cutie there. Uh. These octopuses live in the Indo Pacific Ocean. Their regular coloration is brown and white stripes, and they have eight long tentacles. Um. And when they're under threat, they can ball up and turn dark to

look like a rock. They can shift their tentacles behind them, bundling them up to look like fins, while flattening their heads to look like a poisonous species of flatfish. Uh. They even mimic the flat fish is style of undulating swimming.

Another trick is to hide most of its body in a hole and then it sticks out two of its tentacles that it's like the color has changed such that they're black and white stripes on them, and then that will look like a banded sea snake, because like the optical illusion of like you have one tinacoopo in the hole the other one if it's a snake. Um and this. Yeah, and banded sea snakes are one of the most venomous snakes in the world. I just love the fact I

just can't get over that he becomes a rock. Yeah, I wish I could do that if I could see someone there. They also can mimic poisonous lionfish by um holding its tentacles out like the deadly spines of the fish and kind of swimming like the lionfish does um. Sometimes by I'll just don't even know what they're mimicking.

Like they've there's like they can turn like brown and spiky and start walking around on the seafloor on like bundled up tentacles, like they look like a little cartoon feet, Like quite know what they're trying to, like maybe just a walking rock, like I'm a rock. I'm a rock. Are mocking us? Humans? Look at you in your look at me. I'm a human phone. I breathe air like agad,

Oh my god, it's just really mean. Uh. There's this nearly observed behavior in octopus is where they will actually collect to coconut shell house and carry them around so when they're threatened they can just close themselves up. O my god, I'm obsessed. They're so cute. It's like, oh, that's why. That's also another dream. That's also another dream, just to either turn into a rock or have my little safe space everywhere I go. Yeah, like a bubble.

Just no, just not today, sat It's like yeah, no, no, I'm a coconut. Now yep, nothing to see here, nothing to see, just a coconut. So I was interested in, like how they actually do the skin changing, because that's crazy to me. Actually, let me show you guys of it. Yes, please, I need this, silly fucking Willie's. Have you seen that video of the girl trying to eat an octopus and then octopus like at tacks for face. Yeah. That actually

that's a common thing too in the wild. So like dolphins will smack octopi or octopus is repeatedly, um, to make sure they're dead because their tentacles can keep moving for a while, uh after they're dead, both after they're dead and like even as like if they're being like consumed and like so it's like because they'll you know, it's it's these um the muscles can fire and so it's uh, it's really creepy. Um. But also like you

can see like its skin color immediately change. Here's the banded sea snake memory memoricrans goes in the hall like, look, I am a snack. I'm a snack. That is so sea there it is doing this sort of like um the oh yeah, that's lionfish. Um. Pretty crazy. It would have to see these animals right before mixed them, or does it have the ability is inherently in them? It's I think that it's kind of it's pre programmed. So

here it is again little it's us. It's a little ball that looks sort of like a seaweed thing and it's like walking on its tynacles like their feet. Yeah, I can't see how that's like. It looks like it's just floating away seaweed basically, or like floating away like um, coral, they got an observable creature. Yeah, but they actually so to your question, they do actually come pre programmed with a repertoire of different shapes and colorations. So it's not

just like it's genetic. Well yeah, so it's so their bodies are like an LCD screen. Um Uh. Their brains send signals to thousands and thousands of chromatophores their cells that can act as biological pixels that can be expanded and contracted to change skin tone. This is how they can transform their skin into a new pattern or color in a split second. Um. But like, so how do they match actual patterns? Like if you put a cuttle fish on on a checkerboard or you put um, you know,

against a more natural background. How do they know to like do that pattern? So biology biologists think that when their eyes taken an image of their background, their brains make a statistical approximation of that image. Then they match

it to a vast repertoire pre programmed patterns. UM. So human brains are kind of similar in terms of cognition, Like we have these set archetypes in our brains, so like that's how we can recognize something like a cat, like we've um, we've learned from observing many cats that like there's this sort of shape that is a cat, and then once we see it, it matches. It's sort of like matching to that pattern that's in our programmed

in our brains. But the difference is that the cuttlefish and the octopus is come preprogrammed with these um patterns. Octopuses are very smart, though, so I wonder if they have more ability to learn. So cuttlefish are able to start matching patterns as soon as they hatch, leading to the theory that they're cute little supercomputers who come preprogrammed with a series of complex patterns. UM. But so cuttle

fish also have this other really intelligent behavior. Um So, males can transform one half of their body to look female and the other half to look male, So like changing the coloration um so that males facing them on one side see a harmless female and then females on the other side see a sexy, available male. Uh. And then that way they can attract the females while catfishing the male into being non aggressive like it's cool, I'm

just a female. Then like this is a ultimate player trick. Yes, there, there's like this behavior is pretty common amongst like many different animals where like there's like sturgeons where the male there's a certain type of like sneaky male fish where they their bodies actually look more female. Um, and they it's an evolutionary strategy because they're smaller and they can't compete as much with the big males, but they can like have sneaky mating because the big males assume they're

a female. But in this case, it's like way crazier because they can actually change their body like you know, they're they're they're in real time morphing into like like no, no, no, it's cool, I'm I'm I'm a female. And then the other half is like not really like hit me up. I'm curious if they if they can all do that white they figure it out, Like they're not like wait

is this one like yesterday? Yeah? Maybe they're just like very very like yeah, And I guess like it is interesting because with a lot of mimicry, there is sort of an arms race. So like with butterflies, Um, there are um, poisonous butterflies that aren't good to eat. Birds don't like them, they make them yack up um. But then there's the mimics that are totally delicious, good bugs teat and then um, but they mimic the ones that

are yeah, the poisonous ones and then um. But then if you have sort of a critical mass of poisonous or not mimics, like where there's more mimics than there are poisonous ones, then they'll unlearn uh that and they'll start eating them again. So it's like you see these sort of populations kind of have these uh sort of like inverse relationships and like uh sort of balance out.

It's it's really interesting. That's crazy, like, well they're only seems to be poison Yeah, so you have to have enough, like you have to have enough good It's like gambling, where it's like you have to have enough good feedback

otherwise you're not going to do it. So I imagine with cuttle fish, it's that they're mating strategy is successful enough where it's like they encounter enough females and like get successful with them enough that even though they're fooled a few times, like, um, it's still it's still better to give it a give it a try. That's crazy, don't I feel like I read that in the game. You read the game goodness, how could you? I was kidding?

But I also I feel like I think I did read it just as research in high school to know what these dumb boys were talking about. Oh yeah, I definitely learned online the terminology like nagging. Yeah, that's a good one. Uh yeah, I mean that's like a term

that's using a lot of things. Yeah, which is which is kind of funny because I feel like, um, with peacock's uh there with birds, a lot of the theory with like male birds showing off this fancy coloration, it's like it's sort of more feminist because birds are the ones that are guiding evolution. Because there it's it's more like there's this theory and there's this great book I'm

trying to remember the title. It's about like the um but it's about sort of the uh, the esthetic choices of birds and like this idea that it's not just about male fitness. It's also just like the female birds are like like, wow, you're you're sparkly. I like, uh, And so like female birds drive evolution in in bird species because they're like your tail like does a few somersaults. I do like that, like you're you're you know, your goal or pouch in your neck is are big and red.

That's cool. I love it. Yeah, there are so many animals that could do like a song and to dance to even get the females attention. Yeah, there's a new like like Planet Earth sort of Netflix eas the one where the bird becomes like the top, yeah are you talking about, like dances around and he becomes this absurd shape and it's just like twirled. It's like literally the top yeah, yeah, like and like its neck rock and

it looks like an umbrella that's spending around crazy. And then there's one where like the birds will sort of like there's like four males and like there's one male that's like the one trying to get the females attention, and then he has backup dancers. It's so birds are crazy. They're literally wingman. I feel like I'm going to have to do a whole episode about thirsty birds, thirsty birds and all the cool stuff they do, because it is, you know, just trying to get get that get ladies

are just trying to get laid. They're just like us, is just trying to people magazine. They're just like us. Can humans transform into other animals? Well no, but some humans think they can. There's a rare disorder known as clinical like anthropy and humans where you hold the delusion

that you can transform into an animal. We're not talking about being a furry or having a first SONA clinical like anthrapy is a form of psychosis that involves being in an altered state of mind, and despite being called like anthropy, it's not limited to the delusion of turning into a woolf Cases include people thinking they can transform

into hyenas, cats, horses, tigers, or birds. Anyways. There is even a case in which someone thought they would go through a series of transformations into animals before finally being able to return to their human form after treatment. One unlucky psychiatric patient both had clinical echanthropy and Cotard delusion. Cotard delusion, which we've discussed before on the podcast, is the delusion that your body is dead. He believed that he transformed into a dog, while also believing he was

at times a dead dog. The patient had also had sexual contact with the sheep, for which his guilt may have been contributing to his delusions. You could say he was feeling sheepish. I know, I know, this is a serious, disturbing matter that shouldn't be joked about. I'm wully rully sorry. We'll be right back, get it. The guy who had sexual in with the sheep, right, so we'll be right back.

Everyone's taught about metamorphosis in elementary school. Frog start out as padpoles and grow leg Hungry caterpillars eat a bunch of leaves, bundle themselves into cocoons or crystalists, and turn into beautiful butterflies. But your elementary school teacher likely left out some of the more gory details. Have you ever wondered what happens inside those cocoons and crystalises? Do you picture caterpillars sprouting wings and legs. Sorry, but nope, they

dissolved completely. That's right. The caterpillar will digest itself, turning entirely into go into an oozing soup. The only parts not dissolved are groups of blueprints cells called imaginal disks, which will eventually grow into body parts fueled by the soup of its former body. In fact, cocoons and crystalists are more like wounds than a sleeping bag, where the caterpillar goes through a sort of second embryonic development. So

do those dissolved caterpillars die forming a new creature? Is it a kind of ship of THESEUS thought experiment where you're deconstructing the caterpillar cell by cell and rebuilding it into a new ship butterfly thing? So did it die? Is it reborn? Well, here's something trippy. Researchers have found that moths retain the memories of their former caterpillar cells. Caterpillars were conditioned to hate a certain odor by pairing

it with a mild electric shock. Then the caterpillars went through the typical metamorphosis process, dissolving into a soup and reforming into a moll. But these moms actually kept the memories of the smell, avoiding it, as compared to control groups who weren't conditioned as caterpillars. So how do you get turned into a bug yogurt and keep your memories.

It's possible that some of the neural structure resides in the imaginal disc cells that are kept intact during the metamorphosis, although it's hard to say how much of their brains remain the same. It's kind of spooky when you think about it. The moth is perhaps like the ghost of its former caterpillar self. Weird how they didn't cover this

in The Hungry, Hungry Caterpillar. I'm going to be joined by a real life animal researcher to go over some of the other freaky metamorphoses you probably didn't learn about in school. Joining us today is our friendly neighborhood lizardman, Dr Greg Polly. He's a herpetology researcher and curator at the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County. Welcome to

the show again, Greg, thanks for having me on. So as kids, we learn about tadpoles turning into frogs, but it's one of those things that I think it's a lot crazier when you really think about it. Um, And I think people don't know as much about metamorphosis as they think they do. Um, So what did school not teach us about tadpole to frog metamorphosis? A ton? They didn't teach They didn't teach anything so much. No, I mean,

metamorphosis is such an amazing process. And you know the reality is that there's something like, you know, seven thousand, three hundred species of amphibians, of which the vast majority of a lot of frogs. Yeah, so something like I don't know sixty three of those. Um, just those numbers are off to my head. So that's roughly about what it is. Um. Are frogs, and they oftentimes have lots of variants on this theme of metamorphosis. So first of all,

not all, not all frogs have a free living tadpole stage. Yeah, not so. Um, some of them have, you know, the sort of standard like they have a free living tadpole and then the tadpole undergoes metamorphosis, right, and you get the tail gets resorbed and the limbs pop out, and you know, you have a bunch of other changes that happened, and then the thing, you know, crawls out of the water. It's our top round wind like, Yeah, a lot of them do that, but a lot of them don't do that.

So some of them have that tadpole stage basically inside the egg, and what hashes out of the egg is a little froglet. Like we see that a lot. And then we have situations like there's these spade foot toads in in the desert Southwest and the United States that they basically the adult breed in ponds that form in monsoon rainstorms and thunderstorms. And so but those ponds in

the desert, we're gonna draw really fast. So they go from you know, egg to like tadpole in a matter of days, and then they go from adpole to frog let in a matter of days. So you might have ten days two weeks in which the entire process is completed.

And then you might have frogs, for example, at high elevation in the Sierra Nevada or in northern or extreme southern latitudes, um that might actually take a long time to grow up to the point where they're going to metamorphosis, and so they actually might be tadpoles for two or three years before they get to the point that they transform. That's like when I think of a frog, I think their whole lifespan is two or three years, not like, no, not the case at all. Like there are some, there

are definitely some. There are some species of frogs that

live way longer than that. Like there's some species of frogs that you possibility like actually some of those poison dart frogs, like the incredibly colorful ones that we see hopping around in rainforest in northern South America in parts of cent America, some of those live up intil over twenty years, like, which is just amazing thing about that is and I imagine a lot of them successfully live pretty long because they don't get they have that point.

It helps to be it helps to be really toxic and helps um and then and then, so we think a lot about with with metamorphosis. We think a lot about tadpoles and frogs, but of course there's also salamanders and in Salaman if we don't call them tadpoles, we just say the larva, which is not just insects. Yeah, exactly, so we it's totally reasonable to use the term larva. And also I mean the term metamorphosis we use that for insect it's also true for amphibians, and so for

salamanders and their larva. We see tons of sort of you know permutations on this theme of metamorphosis as well, and I think some of the coolest are actually there are some species of salamanders where the adult salamanders basically maintain the overall larval form. So you catch the adult salamander and it looks just like the larva, like it's aquatic, it's got gills, it's got a tail, but they're also

sexually mature. So this is what we call pedomorphosis. So they've maintained some of these larval characters into adulthood and they kind of like ax Laudels X. Laudel is the perfect example, so that is a pedomorphic tiger salamander. So that is a species that doesn't undergo traditional amorphosis and actually becomes sexually mature. So males, you know, have test these females have ovaries, and yet they're in the overall larval form where they've got killed and they've got a

tail and their cruising around. They're technically like babies but not Yeah, but they're also adults. So they're sort of combining the best of both worlds. Basically, what they're saying is like, Okay, the aquatic environment is so good, I'm

just gonna stay. And so there are some species where that sort of that transition to being this pedomorphic lineage happened, you know, way back in their history, and there's actually some species, including some tiger stylementers here in the United States, where if the aquatic conditions are really good, they'll stay as that pedomorphic kind as an impromptu decision. Yeah, just like the conditions are right, like the waters, you know, the water is nice and warm, it's easy living, there's

tons of prey. I'm having a good time, there's lots of whether individuals around. Cool. I'm just gonna stay here. And but then let's say that didn't you know, that's been good for a while, and then there's a drought. Oh man, don't and then they and then boom, that's incredible. It's like it's like within one lifespan, like evolution, Yeah, you can all these sort of potential things that can happen. So, like, I guess, so the key here is like when we

think about metamorphosis, it's just incredibly diverse. Yeah, and it's you know, why shouldn't it be, right, there's like different habitats out there, there's lots of different species, and of course they're doing lots of different things. Yeah. So you talk to me a little bit about the paradoxical frog, which sounds sort of like a Benjamin Button situation, and it kind of is in a way. Um, so, can you tell us a little bit about this mystery frog? Yeah, so this is I mean, what a great name for

a frog, to the paradoxical frog. And it's entirely named for this whole sounds like a like an all rock band name, like paradoxical frogs, paradoxical frogs, but you like like electric ukuleles on there. I mean, the paradoxical frog is so cool that I just have to assume that this band is gonna be really really good. Yeah. Yeah, um so yeah, the paradoxical frog. The reason it gets that name is because the tadpoles get huge, like two can be like a really big paradoxical So that's like

ten inches people, Okay, ten inches. So we're jumping around, you know, depending on where you are in the listening audience, and so this is like a ten inch long tadpole that's huge. And then but of course it's mostly tail, but it has a really big tail. I mean both in terms of length and also just in terms of height and the tail, like it's a big tail. And then but of course what does that tail do well? That actually fuels that whole process of metamorphosis because it's

such a radical change. So it's like the body is actually feeding on the tail. The body is digesting the table the tail to just feed this increasing energetically expensive act of transitioning into this sort of whole different kind of organism. And we've talked about c squirts on the show before, and that's another process where the c squirt like cannibalize it its own body to metamorphosis from one stage to the other. Like I think it, I will take your word from It eats its own It does

and doesn't eat its own brain. It eats like certain parts of its brain, but then it forms kind of a new brain. Cool. Yeah, I mean it makes sense, like if you're gonna undergo one of these big transitions, you while your organs are undergoing this remarkable change, they're probably not going to be functioning at least as well

as they would otherwise, and maybe not at all. So when frogs they actually stop eating, like these tadpoles stop eating, and their entire digestive drack is, you know, having lots of changes. Mouthparts are changing so under construction, so they can't so it's just gonna Yeah, you just basically cannibalize. You take all the energy from your tail, and that fuels this big change. And so that's what the paradoxical

frog is doing. But what's incredible is it goes from this like ten inch long tadpole to this relatively sort of small froglet, and of course then that froglet you know, as all others about how big is the frog, I mean, I think that the froglet is like, you know, right around inch and a half two inches, Okay, that's like yeah, so you basically you basically go from like ten inches down to this like one and a half to two

inch long froglet. But then of course that froglet, you know, and then it starts eating and it's growing and you know, it's not yet reproductive maturer and so right, so it goes from like a big tadpole to a little frog and then the frog grows up into an adult exactly, Yeah, and then lays eggs and starts the cycle all over. That's such a kind of circuitest way to reach adulthood. Yeah, I mean it's not. It's just that they get so big,

is what's you know, is what sort of more dramatic here? Yeah, why do why do the tadpoles get so big as opposed to like because I know there's some species of frog where the tadpole is roughly the same size of the new froglet, maybe a little bigger with the tail. But yeah, kind of see, it's actually there's it's actually not yet. I don't think it's really totally clear why

paradoxical frogs, like why are they doing this necessary? Um, it probably has to do not just with the energetic cost of metamorphosis, because lots of other species experience as well, but it probably has to do with aspects of their environment.

You know, you're trying to get to a really big size, you know, grow as much as you can, and it's undoubtedly the case that the bigger you are as a tadpole is the bigger you are as a froglet, right right, And then there's lots of repercussions of that, like if you're small, maybe you're But why specifically paradoxical frogs do this.

I haven't seen a good explanation. It's Benjamin Buttons some of just because they're like I wanted to be super cool, Yeah, yeah, just like I wanted to be the biggest tadpole on the block. And then and they like wear a little sunglasses and just cruise around and cruise around tropical ponds. Um. So there's this parasite called Liberia that I want to talk about. Um, it's a flatworm treumatoad is that if

that's I'm pronouncing that right? Um? So it infects frogs. Um. But we're not here to talk necessarily about the frog's metamorphosis. But the the liberia itself goes through an amazing shape shifting life cycle. So the adult worms live inside predatory birds like cranes, herons and egrets. They reproduce inside the bird gut and then their eggs travel out of the

crane via the poop train. Then they hatch. The The riberia flat worms hatch into these sort of like tadpole like larval stages with like sort of a body and a tail um and then those in fact ram's horns snails which um are also common in the same sort of like lagoon areas. Yeah. Um, I actually, like anyone who wants an aquarium knows how great they are taking over the snails. Um. So. So the riberia lives in the snails reproductive tissue, and then it transforms into more

of a worm shape. Um. So this isn't another stage in its life cycle. Then it reproduces a sexually and castrates the snail by eating their reproductive organs as as you do, you know, if you believe in reincarnation, like just say, let's avoid being aid being rams torn snails. So it sounds like the treumatodes are having fun, but not the snals. I don't know they did, after all, start off like the first start of their life with

like being pooped out. Yeah that's true, that's true. So then after they've castrated the snails, which must be like great singers and just all these castrati snails like oh um, then they transform into another free swimming form so that's the kind of tadpole like head and tail um. And then they infect frogs and also fish um. And they prefer uh infecting frogs when they're still developing. Um, and

then they insist in the frog. Not I in S I T, but E in c y s T like assist because they like embed themselves in the tissue and form this cist capsule around themselves. Uh. And it's really as disgusting as you would imagine, like acne. But then you have a warm in there um and then um, so finally there there Uh life cycle ends when the

frog gets eaten by a crane. The liberia emerges from the cyst, which sounds awful, and then it develops into an adult inside the birds intestinal tract, mates with other cool hip liberia in the area, and the whole boschi and horror starts again. Um. Just an amazingly complex I know. It's like it feels like a four year old's idea

of like, uh, some kind of transformer robot thing. And then it turns and then it starts swimming around, and then it like like goes up its butt and then yeah, it basically is yeah, it's like, yeah, a little kid came up from this whole. Um. That's like not even the weirdest aspect of Liberia. It also when it infects frogs, especially young frogs completely jacks up the developing tadpoles and makes them grow these extra limbs, like and they're weird.

It's not just like like having four arms would be kind of weird, but they're like also they can be super long or really like weirdly inflated, uh, strange numbers of digits. Yeah. Yeah, So I wanted to ask you, like if you've if you've ever seen one of these infected frogs, or if you can kind of explain like why they start growing long noodle legs at the back

of their legs. So these traumatid parasites, when you know, they brow into these limb buds, and what will happen is if like so, if this is a tadpole, it's just got those limb buds. Just about playing real quick

for the audience what a limb bud is. Yeah, so right, So these tadpoles are are going to undergo metamorphosis, and so as it does that, you know, as that goes to that process, then in the tadpole you get these spots where like the hind legs are gonna pop out, in the front legs are gonna and so that's that's the limbud right, so basically part of the tadpole, but that's the part that's gonna turn. It's going to develop

into a limb. And so what happens is if these triumatodes burrow right into that limb bud, they can actually cause it to split in weird ways. And so sometimes what will then happened is like where you should have had one arm, you end up with two arms, or maybe an arm ends up being like it grows part way out and then it divides into two, and then they might have a tra branch. So you get all

of these weird sort of things going on. And it turns out that I've actually only seen this once when what's really crazy about this is that some of the early work that was done on this was actually done by a guy by the name of Peter Johnson who was an undergrad. He actually started this work when he was an undergrad at Stanford University, and he did a lot of the work actually at uh ponds that are like ponds that like I used to go hiking by

when I was high school, and he did this. I think he's like right around my age, so I think this is probably this is probably mid to list late nineties, I think they started doing this work and elsewhere around the country people were reporting in a high incidents of these like malform frogs, and we thought that maybe this was associated with this bigger pattern of amphibian declimb we're seeing like yeah, and so we're like, well, what's going on.

And it turns out its probably does have a link to pollution, because you know, one of the sort of key aspects of this crazy parasite life cycle is that they have to go through these rams, horn snails, algae and extra nitrogen in the water, and that can be from agricultural runoff, that can be from fertilizers, that can be from pollution, extra nitrogen in the water, algae, blooms, rams,

horn snails really want to understand large ecological patterns. Get an aquarium and try to keep it from either being taken over about by algae or by snails, and like trying to balance that because it's very difficult. So these uh yeah, so these you get, you know, large numbers of rams from sales, large numbers of trimands, and then you get large numbers of these crazy and so yeah, these these parasites they brew in the limbuds. You get

this weird. These weird, you know, deformed frogs, just like cronenberg esque frogs, limping with big hind legs and long, skinny ones and noodly arms. And I've seen I've never seen one personally, but I've I've seen photos online and some of them are totally messed up. They have several areas where like, I guess, is it because they can get multiple infections exactly? Yeah, so like that what's weird? Like, so I was going to say, it's like, this is a lot of this work was done right near where

I grew up. This is actually in the foothills, just just around south said Jose. And um here in California. And I've actually never seen one there. I've only ever seen this once and it was in it was in central Texas. Yeah, and it was a frog that had had five limbs, although the fifth limb was not It was short and stubby, but it was it was is flopping around. No, it was like, you know, I was like, yeah, it's not so bad. It was a decent looking limb.

It was a little short, little stubby, but it's still had all five. Digital was like, yeah, yeah, I think it definitely impact locomotion. Yeah, yeah, you probably would go in a lot of circles. It was this one was kind of up and out of the way a little bit, and so actually in this case the frog had pretty good locomotion. Certainly for a lot of these frogs, it's absolutely going to impact emotion, and of course that probably increases their likelihood of being picked up by some heron

and then the crane. Yeah, and then the life cycle of the riberias. It's sort of like we've talked about toxoplasmosis the t gan gandha or gandai um that infects rats where it makes them like be chill with cats and then the cats eat them, which is great for the the T. Ganda because it completes life cycle and the cat gut. It is clearly in the parasite favorite to alter the behavior of the host, increase the likelihood

that did to move on to the next stage. And so it's actually for these triumatoid parasites it's definitely to their advantage to cause some sort of locomotory problem on the phone because it increases the chance that that frog is gonna get picked off by a bird, which again, and I've made this argument before, I think is the best kind of zombie apocalypse science is like some kind

of parasite that wants us to eat each other basically. Yeah, I mean, you know, and it's just what we see is that if there's a mass resource out there, something is eventually going to evolve to explore the mass resource, and so you know, the human population is it continues to skyrocket, It's like that's that's a lot of protein out there for something to take advantage of. Zombie apocalypse confirmed by Dr Greg Paulli. Uh, he's willing to bet

his credentials on it happening. Yeah, that's that's not quite what I think. Um So, you mentioned to me that there's this folk legend regarding snakes shedding their skin and rejuvenation, which fits into that thing like when we think of shape shifters. You know, there's something mystical about snakes and how they they'll literally like remove their skin and emerge a new and there's something very creepy about it. Um So, so what's the legend and what's the scientific reality behind

snakes and other reptiles and shedding their skin. Yeah, so we see snakes associated both with the ideas of rejuvenation and ideas with shape shifting, and they probably stem from the same basic thing, which is that if a snake is about to shed, that snake usually becomes very lethargic

as the you know, a snake skin. When it sheds that skin off, there's actually a scale that does go over the eye, and so as that all starts to get ready to shed, they actually really kind of lose their eyesight for a couple of days, and their eyes kind of gray over. They kind of become this like milky white. The whole animal kind of gets this gray appearance. So you've got a snake that's now like lethargic gray.

It's like this thing is gonna die. And then all of a sudden it sheds its skin and it's absolutely beautiful, you know. And they haven't eaten for like a week or two is they were going through this process, and so now they're like hungary and they're cruising around and so all of a sudden it's like full of life and vigor. So you can see how this gets into this idea of rejuvenation. Yeah, yeah, like a phoenix bursting from its old skin exactly. Yeah, I know, that's a

that's a great way to look at it. Yeah, And of course the reality is that what's happening is that, you know, the snake has this this sort of dead layer of skin. Yeah, and you know, but that's and this is true of course for reptiles as well, but that's basically this continuous layer, and there's lots of benefits to that, Like, you know, presumably that's that reduces things like water loss, which is great if you're like an

air adapted animal um. And it's also like if you're picking up parasites, you know, like ectoparasites like ticks and mites, and they can't get through that thick they're on that layer. But if you shed off that layer, you might be able to lose a whole bunch of these. I see, Oh that's interesting. So there's all these sort of benefits of it. But it's dead skin, so it's not going

to grow with the animal. And so once that animal grows a little bit, it needs to shut off that skin and it's going to get rid of some of those ectoparasites, right because i'mlike, because like for most people, our skin is very elastic, so as you grow, it actually stretches some people get stretch marks as they grow, they grow too quickly because your your skin is literally

stretching for you. Um. And but snakes they don't have that kind of elasticity, right, and which again, but it has lots of advantages, Like we lose lots of moisture through our skin. Snake can't. A snake doesn't want to do that, right because water is probably a hard thing to come and they're cold blooded and they have to, uh, they kind of have to be in the in the

heat in order to keep it. So their behaviorally thermoregulating, right, which is I mean, I think at some level is a big advantage because behavioral thermal regulation means that you know, you can get your energy from the environment as a haus at least what a snake's perspective was, right, You sound like you're on the snake side here. I mean,

I'm a little bit partial to our little biased Yeah. Yeah, So as a lot of people might know, like that that whole symbol for medicine, those two snakes kind of wrapped around a pole, or the two snakes eating each other's tail. Um, Actually that one's I think that's a different one. That's that's dis Yeah, um. But the caducius is the too snail or the two snakes wrapped around a pole kind of facing each other, um. And you see it on ambulances at hospitals. It's this a pretty

old symbol of medicine. Can you talk a little bit about how how snakes got associated with medicine like that? So this whole idea of snakes, you know, snakes being associated with rejuvenation, I think we see this popping up in in many cultures. And one of the cultures where it pops up in this sort of Greek and Roman mythology.

And so there's this symbol called the rod of Asclepius that is a single snake that's wrapped around this like staff and a Sleepius was the Greek god of healing and medicine, and so totally makes sense that we would have this, you know, this this his rod, that emblem of a single snake wrapped around this rod as now like a symbol of medicine. But I think just this idea of like a snake intertwined around a stick, people sort of didn't always realize that like that's specific to

this rod of Asclepius. So you also have the Caducius, which is the two snakes intertwined around the stick. But the Caducius is actually has nothing to do with Asclepius. That's actually from Hermes. That's Hermes as staff or was a part of her well. So I think it's just like, oh, we need like a Greek like there's this snake stick image from you know, Greek Roman mythology, and it's really supposed to be the rod of a sleep It's associated with medicine because the sleepy is the god of medicine.

Hermes was actually all about commerce and merchants, right, he was like the communication. So it's this crazy situation where like we have like that snake motif, but if you actually see both of those snakes, it's just it's really common and it's mostly in like in sort of Western culture.

So like you see this in a lot of Europe, and you especially see it in the United States, Like the us UM Public Health Agency, they have their emblem is the incorrect emblem, so like their actual emblem, And you know, you could argue that maybe this is somewhat ironic given the amount of money that goes towards like medical insurance companies couldn't look up, couldn't look up their Greek mythology, and ended up actually having an emblem that's

more about commerce and merchants than that's actually about healing and medicine. So true though, when you think about it, so true. We don't we we can't do politics on this show. I'm not allowed not No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Um, well, that's that's really interesting. So um, doctors are all doing it wrong. Hospitals, you have been incorrectly using the snakes. Uh. And I mean I'm all for like emblems with more snakes, but in this case, it's actually we should be going

with a single snake model. We should just have I would like one that's just a wreath of snakes, just as many snakes. I mean, I think we're getting into like Medusa maybe yeah, yeah, like a Medusa head. That would be cool that. I think if hospitals had like a really metal Medusa head with a bunch of snakes, I feel a lot more comfortence gonna go over well in the children's room. Yeah, yeah, Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Is there any anything you

wanna tell listeners to do? Yeah, I would say wherever you are. I mean, you know, as a curator at a natural history museum. I love museums. Wherever you are, go check out your local natural history museum. Yeah, stay in school, be cool. Check out some reptiles at your natural history museum. Sounds good to me. So I'm back with Anna and Scheren, and I'm going to show them at picture of a frog with a bunch of legs. Whoa you just he's just chilling. Man. Ah, there's there's

so many and there's like, here's another one. Huh. Frogs were wild? So does this help their lives in any way? Or doesn't make No, doesn't hinder them then? Or does it just what? It depends? Sometimes they can just they they're just cool with it. They're like, all right, more more legs to dance with or whatever. They never like

chew off a leg to get rid of it. No, I don't think so, although sometimes like it it depends like on how lucky or unlucky the frog is, because like if they have an extra limb, sometimes it just doesn't affect them at all, whereas like it can sort of interfere, like like at this one he's just got like this one buff leg in this one little point weird leg. He doesn't work out that like someone skipped, Like you got to pay attention to all five of

your legs. Wow, leg day, leg day, leg day, leg day. Yeah, that's what happens when you focus on one leg legs days, legs for days literally like and each leg can be on one day each. Does that happen to any other animal where they grow multiple limbs because of that what you were talking about the because of the the the parasitic flatworm, I don't. I don't think so. I think it's specific to frogs because it infects the frog at that um larval stage where it's like their tadpoles, So

it inmbeds in the limbuds. So that's what kind of causes that weird like you know, like sprouts into two limbs. Although like um researchers have played around with um oh sort of limb buds and insects and stuff and gotten them to sprout legs. Yeah. Yeah, we don't need more centipedes. We don't need spiders with more legs. I haven't seen that. I'm gonna have to halt. It's just like a scientist like more legs, we need more legs. Too many legs, too too many. I hear what you're saying. I understand.

What about not enough legs? Yeah, what if we did put more legs? Like how centipede but more legs? That's too many? How much is too many legs? Centipedes that even have twelve legs have way more than twelve, Like it's called centipede, like twelve, but it's way more. I think, Yeah, it's it's like it's like dozens. Yeah, it doesen't a

billion billion legs. You feel like our reptiles only ones that have that capability though, I feel I feel like like lizards can regenerate their tails sometimes, yeah they can, so like they could regenerate their tail, but um, frogs can't actually regenerate their limbs. It's just that when there's well, it's right, it's just that when they're in that tadpole stage, like their limbs are growing um and so like if something like like hangs out in that little limb butt area,

it's just like it's gonna maybe sprout into two legs. Wait, so something like a salamander like you're talking about, can that as well grow multiple legs because it has a lot of a stage. I probably think I would imagine it could. I don't know if this uh flatworm actually infects. It doesn't look like it. It looks like, um, what if they got against frogs? Man? I mean maybe they love frogs. Maybe they do. Maybe they're like I want to get in that sweet frog butt and just live

there and grow multiple legs out of you. I love it. I love your butts so much. I just want to live in your butt. Um. But uh yeah, here's here's another picture if you want it. Just like that's a really inconveniently located if you know what I mean, Like he has a giant penis leg with the hand on it. Good for good for mating, hope. Yeah, like female frogs. That being like what bound sign me up? Is that your third leg? Yes? Actually yes it is actually yeah,

that is exactly what it is. But I imagine the pulse. So you guys got anything to plug? Not and don't say frog limbs. Um, I just want to go back and read animorphs again to my third leg. We're plugging animorphs. I just the covers were so great that I bought I would beg my parents for animals and just flipped through them. That's all. Covers were so good, the cover and then the little flip book in the corners where

you're like, and it's a person. But now to beat That's all I was thinking about when you were talking about people. I think they're animals. I was like, maybe that's the author of animals. Yeah, maybe animals turned us into turn everybody into furries. Yeah. Well, on that note, Um, we host a podcast together called Ethnically Ambiguous. Yeah, Anna is on it. I am on it. There you could say they're both on it. Really say we host it together. On it. It's on my Heart Radio comedy podcast nowhek's

onhar Radio Economy podcast Network. And you can find this anywhere you find your podcast. We're on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify. Our website I Thinically Ambigie was pod dot com. You can follow us on Twitter ethnically am A m B. Follow us on Instagram Ethnically am big A m B I G And we post episodes every Monday and Wednesday. Yeah.

And you know it's a show all about being from the Middle East and being children of immigrants or immigrants, and um, yeah, it's talk a lot about that those experiences and a lot of like Middle Easter news that doesn't really get covered in the mainstream media, and we keep it fun. We have cool Yeah, we have like guests that are usually people of color, immigrants, just highlighting their cool work. We just had some really cool guests

on last months of check it out. Yeah, and I'm at Anna hosting on Twitter A N N A h O S S N e h. And I'm Shiro Hero on Instagram s h E E r O h E r oh and on Twitter, I'm sure Hero six six six nice. That's super metal, hardcore. And you can follow Creature Feature on the Twitter at Creature feet pod not like feet but like a t this episode. Yeah, and it's pork uh and on Instagram and on our website Creature Feature uh pod. And we will be back next

Wednesday with more gross stuff. Thank you so much for having us, Thank you guys for joining me. And thanks to the Space Classics for their awesome song Exo Lumina