Table Manners

who have more of an arboreal take on dining. You'll learn how to dine with all the animals and how to politely hold your termite stick depending on your chimpanzee, Hosts, tastes, discover this and more as we answer the age old question can Australia's version of the trash eating raccoon fly? Of course they can. Joining me today is food writer, host of the podcast smart Mouth, and expert on all things edible, Katherine Spires. Welcome, Thank you so much. I'm

so excited to talk about this. I had you on a long time ago, and I I'm trying to remember exactly what we talked about. It was food related, it was I think it was about animals that ate dirt um or or weird weird eating weird foods that animals ate. Yes, this sounds familiar, Yes, and I believe we did talk about her ducans on that or like a bird stuffed inside birds stuffed inside birds. Quite possibly, yes, I mean people love talking about those, so there's no reason why

we wouldn't have. Know we we definitely would have. And then we did drink some dirt flavored soda, I believe, Yeah, which I still can't believe. Like you managed to track down dirt flavored soda, you know, it was surprisingly easy. This was back when I was still in l A And there was a like a soda shop in Westwood that just had all sorts of weird sodas. They had like barf soda and cat peas soda. Yeah. I just saw at it on the dirt flavored one because that

seemed like the least likely to make us throw up. Yeah, yeah, good choice. But today we're talking about the table manners of some very interesting animals. I mean, table manners is very cultural, even with people like you know, the kinds of forks and spoons you use, if you use you know, cloth napkins, or if you're like me and you just tear up some paper towels and rubbed your face with it, it is very It's it depends on your culture. It depends on sort of where you are even within a country,

and uh, your your individual upbringing. And it's a very there is no one set of table manners for humanity even Yeah, that's right. And it's like gets even more intense than that, because I would say table manners can also include things like bodily functions and their appropriateness at said table, which I think it's interesting, Yeah, exactly, and

slurping for instance, Um, stuff like that. Etiquette, like in in the Western world was definitely conceived as something as like a unifier, which speaks to like how homogeneous people can sometimes be, because if you're like looking at the whole world, there's no way to have like universal table manners. Yeah yeah, and I mean, you know, no right way really, although sometimes in the West people like to think that their way is the right way. But yeah, I mean

it is, Uh, it is. It's just highly individualized, and part of it's just going to be sort of by chance, like depending on you know, sort of your culture's history, and part of it is based on your cuisine, Like what you eat is going to determine how you eat it. Totally, yes, and we mind this is not only the case with humans, but very much the case with animals. Their individual eating style is determined to buy so many interesting factors, their diet,

their evolutionary history. We'll even find out later in the show that within a single species you can have different eating habits, different manners, which I think is really fascinating because we sometimes think of animals as just these automatons that have have been pre programmed with some instincts and you lit them loose and they just do those things. But in fact, they seem to be able to learn

and have cultures of their own. Yeah. I feel like this has probably been talked about on your show before, but having all these videos at our fingertips of like animals doing cute things has really changed my relationship with them, because when you see like a chicken getting excited about seeing their human and hugging their human, I'm like, oh, they like think about things, Yeah, something like eating habits, right, like the way that we eat. It's something so pivotal

to our existence. I guess that it's so important, Like we celebrate our holidays mostly with stuff that we eat, with ways that we eat, eating traditions, and the fact that animals will have their little individual ways of eating as well. It's like, yeah, they have their own little personal worlds, their personal lives and and habits and and yeah it is. It is makes us, at least for me, it makes me sort of feel much more like they

are fully realized beings. Yeah, no, me too, absolutely. So we're first going to talk about one of the loveliest animals in the animal Kingdom, very flamboyant, very fancy, the flamingo. They are so great. And this picture you're showing me of them, I thought was fake, Like I thought it

was plastic. I didn't realize like how shiny flamingos are. Well, the what's interesting is they're very shiny in that picture because we're it's shot underwater, and because their feathers have these water resistant oil on it, they will when they are underwater. They have this like glistening shiny appearance because there's probably some air trapped in between their feathers and the water, and so that reflects light and makes them very shiny and luminous and even more spectacular than out

above the water. Very beautiful. Yes, they are wonderfully pink. They are found all over the world. They're found in fresh brackish or salt water aquatic habitats in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the America's so they are almost a cosmopolitan bird.

There are six species of flamingo uh. And you know, while it is true you may have heard that a group of flamingos is called a flamboyance, bio biologists generally don't use those like funny terms for groups of things, like they generally don't say like a murder of crows or something, or a flamboyance of flamingos. They will they'll just say flock. So I don't actually know who comes up with these goofy animal names, but I think they should probably be stopped. Stop them now before it gets

two out of hand. But yeah, so flamingos have those wonderful pinky whitish feathers. They have long legs, perfect for waiting in water. They have that long s shaped neck and that big curved, downturned beak that has that much deeper lower half of the beak and sort of it's a it's a very interestingly shaped beak. It looks kind of like a scoop. Uh, And that's actually exactly what it is. Um. They will actually use that beak to scoop up water that contains their preferred diet of brine,

shrimp and blue green algae. But first let's talk a little bit more about their anatomy, because these are weird birds. Like they're very they're so beloved and ubiquitous, but if you like take a step back and you really look at them with fresh eyes, you see just such a weird, awkward looking animal. Yeah. Yeah, And I think the fact that like there uses lawn ornaments so frequently really speaks

to like how odd they are. So you don't have like a lot of like pigeon decorative elements around the house. Yeah no, I mean, you know, you don't really need to look too far for a pigeon, So putting up pigeons as decorations it seems a little bit like guilding the lily there, the little the pigeon lily. But yeah, so, so they are very strange looking, and those lawn ornaments they are typically it is the titular flamingo standing on one leg with the other leg kind of bent backwards

and sort of just resting there. And this common misconception that flamingoes or even all birds have knees that been backwards. What you what you see there that looks like their knee is actually their ankle which is bending totally normally, just like our ankles bend. Oh I see, Oh that changes everything actually out of a balance. Yeah, so they have those ankles there. They do have knees, but you can typically not really see them. They're usually up close

to their body, usually covered with feathers. And yeah, they can and do stand on one leg. They like to rest that way. The question of why they do that is still not fully understood, but the leading theory is that it conserves energy, which seems a little odd. If you do yoga or any kind of balancing, you know, it is actually pretty difficult to balance on one leg. But the way they may be able to do it is that they can lock a leg in place and just balance on this locked leg like they're sitting on

a stool. And somehow they are using less muscle activity by sort of just sitting back on this one locked stool than they would be standing on two legs, which is very strange, but I suppose it works for them. Yeah, good for them. Also, flamingos can fly. We mostly see them sort of waiting sticking their heads underwater, standing around.

But they are good flyers. They migrate between aquatic habitats, especially in areas where the wet and dry seasons change, and they need to migrate in order to basically follow the food source that will come with an aquatic habitat. In fact, they are such good flyers. An infamous flamingo escaped the Kansas Zoo in two thousand and five and was found in two thousand and nineteen, fourteen years later in Texas, living the free life of a pink cowboy. Oh my gosh, oh, I have so many questions. So

was it tagged or something? Is that how they knew it was the same one they I you know what, I'm not sure if it was tagged. It may have been. But the way they figured it out was people in Texas recorded this flamingo and like sent video of it, and the Kansas Zoo basically was able to say, yep, that that was one of ours, because we lost a couple of them. And that's you know, the right that that that there looks like a flamingo. To me, that's amazing. And was it living like was it feeding itself or

were people feeding it? It was feeding itself, so it had found some an aquatic habitat. I think it is either by a river or um a saltwater habitatat and it was able to, Yeah, just take care of itself for those fourteen years. That's amazing, Yeah, it is. It is amazing. So flamingos are actually surprisingly hardy. Their legs are really tough, and they can wade in very alkaline water, so very acidic water. That is not you if we tried to wade in this water, we'd not be having

a good time. It would burn our skin. But for the flamingos, they are able to tolerate it, and it actually helps them keep their nests safe, so they can, like sometimes they will find it nesting grounds that are surrounded by this really spicy water and it will protect them from predators. Oh that's so cool. Yeah, so can flamingos can, like one flamingo, go from saltwater to fresh water and vice versa and have an equally good time. It really just depends on whether that aquatic habitat has

enough of their food source. I think they tend to like salt or brackish water because that tends to have the most in terms of their preferred diet, which is brine shrimp and blue green algae, but they do also eat crustaceans, insect, larva, and mollusks. So if they can find food in that area that they preferred diet, it will be fine, whether it's brackish or saltwater or fresh water. I see, these guys are really cool. Yeah, and you know what, so onto their table manners, they are very

strange eaters. They actually eat upside down, so they have those long necks and they will dunk their heads underwater, flip their heads upside down, and they will suck in some water that will contain that blue green algae, the brine shrimp, uh, you know, any little critter that they can suck up in there. And similar to actually baling whale, they will push out the muddy water that they don't want to eat through a filter and so they can eat just the food and not the muddy water that

they've sort of churned up. And so they are actually filter feeders just like baling whales. Where is their filter It is inside their beaks. So their beaks are covered with hairy bristles called lamale, which cover their tongues and mouth and they can just kind of push the that food, or they can push that water through those hairy bristles and it will filter out the delicious, delectable brine shrimp, algae,

and insect larva that they actually want to be eating. Okay, so that makes it easier that it's like part of their biology to do that. But then what is there, like, I don't know, respiratory system upside how do they swallow while upside down? Um, I mean they breathe normally, They will surface and breathe normally. They can you know, close off there. You know, they aren't sucking in the water.

It's sort of like if you took a dunked your head in a bowl of soup room temperature soup, not hot soup, took a bunch of the soup in your mouth, and then sort of you didn't want to eat the broth for some reason, even though the broth is usually the best part, and you just pushed all of the broth through your teeth and then you had this, uh you know, all the carrots and chicken chunks and noodles and whatever, and then that's the part that you just swallow,

and you can swallow it underwater, you could pull your head back up and swallow it above the water, so you are you're not breathing in the soup. And the flamingo just basically live in their very own soup that

they they will eat. Yeah, and because their diet is often made up of primarily brine shrimp and blue green algae, they are this lovely shade of pink because brian shrimp and blue green algae are very rich in carotenoids and carotenoids they are responsible for producing that lovely pink coloration in um birds and in flamingos. That is, I'm jealous of birds because I think those turn us turn humans more orange. Yeah, if they turned us this lovely perlescent

pink could be great. Yeah. So you've probably heard of the the tail of like if you eat enough carrots you will turn orange, and that is actually somewhat true. You would need to eat just an enormous, sickening amount of carrots for that to happen. You would need to eat just I mean, I feel like it would be

a lethal amount of carrots. I'm not even sure if that's possible to die from carrot overdose, but I mean I once thought I was gonna die because I I was younger and learning how to be healthy, and I was like, all right, so today I'm gonna eat this

whole bowl of carrots because that's healthy. Carrots are healthy, so eating more carrots healthiest, and so I ate just a massive amount of carrots, and then I was lying on the floor with stomach cramps because apparently if you suddenly eat a bunch of high fiber vegetables, it will hurt your stomach massively. And I thought maybe I was gonna die. God, that is so very youthful of you to be like more is better, and now I don't

feel well, so clearly I'm going to die. By youthful, I mean like twenty two just for reference, Uh, so I mean that counts. I was like, I was learning, learning to cook on my own, learning to sort of graduate from boxed macaroni to actually cooking real food, and I thought, you know, more carrots, the better, and then

I almost almost overdosed on carrots. Didn't turn orange though, did not turn orange because if you want, if you want to get that orange glow from carrots, you would have to eat them every massive quantities of them every day for that to ever start to basically those carrots andoids to start to affect your pigment. I wonder if you could drink it and turn orange more quick. It's a good question. Could you Could you overdose on carrot juice?

I guess is the question. Yeah, it seems like it would maybe be less painful because liquids tend to Yeah, it's easier to just pass through, right right, right, yeah, yeah. I mean, in any case, I recommend a very diet and to try not to turn yourself orange by overdosing with carrots, even if it is strictly speaking possible. You know, hey, listen, you know there's spray on tan which is probably less painful than eating buckets of carrots a day. This is

such good advice. So that actually explains why some flamingoes that you will see will be white, especially if you go to a zoo, you may see a lot of white flamingos because they are flamingos who are not able

to get enough carotenoids from their diet. And while zoos may try to give them a good diet, it is really difficult to replicate their natural diet, and this actually does impact the flamingos health, and the pink color is actually what's called an honest signal in terms of sexual selection, because female flamingos actually, in fact this is I think pretty uh in terms of these sexes. They both will judge each other based on their pinkness, so you know,

some some sex equality there. They look for a partner who is very pink, because that pink coloration means that that flamingo has been eating healthily, been getting plenty of those tasty Brian shrimp and blue green algae, and it is a good sign that this potential mate is very healthy and so less pink flamingos may have less success with mating. But the babies that they have are born as sort of grayish white. They are not born pink. They will only turn pink after they start to mature

and get enough of those carotenoids from their diet. I see very interesting. I feel really bad for the the flamingos kept in zoos now. I mean, one wanted to escape so badly that I went to Texas and they aren't the right color for doing it. But yeah, so, so baby flamingos are born that sort of grayish white. They get their pink color from their diet, and they are actually fed something very special as babies, regurgitated red

crop milk. So uh, mammals aren't the only ones that can produce milk, they just birds have a different way of doing it. So uh, Flamingos of both sexes produce a bright red crop milk from glands that line the entire digestive tract. So unlike mammals who produce milk from their mammaries, um flamingos and other birds like pigeons will produce a protein rich substance specifically for their offspring that

they can regurgitate. And this crop milk of the flamingos contains red and white blood cells, protein, and fat, all perfect for a growing chick. And as they consume more of these carotenoids, they will eventually turn pink in adulthood. Wow. Wow, So I understand that this like in and of itself, is not more disgusting than like drinking the milk of other species, but it's a brand new idea to me, and I'm really struggling, like feeling really sickened by it.

That's a lot it probably I'm gonna I'm gonna guess now, I've never smelled flamingo crop milk, but based on the smell of like just the flamingos at the San Diego Zoo, I'm gonna say the crop milk probably doesn't smell great. It's probably not a good smell. Yeah. I try not to think too much about milk in general, Like, uh, you know, I don't smart. I don't actually drink that much milk. I I do eat ice cream though, which

is derived from milk, and I do eat cheese. Uh that slight distance from milk of with the cheese and the ice cream does help me. But when I think too hard about milk, it starts to get to me, Like I'm I'm just thinking about like man, this this came out of a cow or a goat, like right out of them, right out of their udders. Yeah you know, yeah, yeah, it's a lot of strange also snarly. Yeah, it's just it's this like this weird fatty protein subs to and it came right out right out of that, right out

of that animal. So good, it's so good. What are we supposed to do? I know there's nothing we can do. Um, maybe maybe we should treat the cows good on the farms. I'm just saying, you know, maybe maybe we should. No, yes, if we're being honest, like I think about this all the time. I don't in and of itself have a problem with eating animals or their products. It's but it's

modern farming. Yeah, I agree, I think that. You know, I think if we are to avail ourselves of animal resources, the very least we can do is to treat them really well. And we don't do that so much. So we need to need to fix that. Um because I think it's going to take a while to put a crop milk ice cre him on the market. I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah, you know, well those baby baby flamingos would love it, right, Yes,

would be so good for that. Speaking of garbage food, wild cockatoos in Australia have learned to raid trash cans for food. Okay, okay, So are they like raccoons with wings exactly? Yes, So sulfur crusted cockatoos are a popular pet but they are of course actual wild animals and they can be found in Australia in large wild flocks. So sulfur crusted cockatoos they are that snowy white bird with the little crest on the top of their head that is tipped in yellow, and they have grayish black beaks,

and they are highly highly social, highly intelligent. And I always whenever I talk about these like wild parrots or cockatoos, I like to inform people that they are very difficult pets. They are expert here pets. Uh it is not pet to get out a whim. They really uh they have I think like the intelligence of a one or two year old human child. So yeah, they are very intelligent

and very social. So um. Often they will have a lot of behavioral issues when they are made pets because they just do not they get really bored and frustrated and they will then you know, start start biting you. Oh wow, okay do you think I mean, doesn't that mean that like we shouldn't keep them as pets, because apparently dogs have the intelligence of two year old humans

is what one study found. But they also seem to like, yes, well it really I think, you know, this isn't going to be another sort of zoo like answer where I think that generally speaking, they aren't great pets. If you if someone is a bird expert and knows what this bird needs, uh to be happy and is willing to basically be there for this bird and give it all the attention it needs for the rest of the bird's life.

And uh, you know, and it is it is It would be your entire life would revolve around the birds and making them happy. Um, then maybe it could work, but it just to me it seems the amount of effort it would be, like, I mean, it would be like having a two year old for the rest of

your life. So if that's your thing, you can actually manage that, you know, I don't think it should be illegal, but right, well, I mean, so what is interesting these similarity between these cockatoos and dogs is they are they're very social animals, and dogs are very social. They have had the benefit of co evolving with us for thousands and thousands of years, and so they make actually very

good pets because they can get a lot of fulfillment. Uh, and they can communicate well with humans, whereas these birds have the highly social element, but they are social with their own species. So they are not domesticated animals. They are wild animals that are some times tamed, but not domesticated like a dog. And so the cockatoos found in Sydney, Australia. While they can be found in uh suburban environments and people's neighborhoods, they are still very wild animals. They're actually

urban adapters. So when cities take over a natural habitat, animals have a few choices. They can move away, uh, they can try to keep doing what they're doing, or they can change their behavior and exploit the presence of humans and intelligent birds, even things like rats and raccoons will often do that. They will try to exploit the human presence because why not, humans have already taken over their area. They might as well do their best to

make the best out of the situation. Yeah, why not exactly. So you know, when you see a raccoon rifling through your trash, you may be annoyed, but look, you raccoons were here first, and now we've got our garbage out there, and why not avail themselves of our garbage. It's probably not the healthiest thing for them. But you know, right, well, so as someone who lives in l A and you you still live here, so you know, um, there are coyotes everywhere in l A. And are they doing the

same thing, the same adaptation thing they are. Yeah, so I think that they are more sort of like they've adapted, but they're not exploiting as much as some of the other animals. So, like I would say that things like rats, raccoons, pigeons, squirrels,

they are exploitters. So they are urban exploitters. They have figured out how to avail themselves of human infrastructure and waste, whereas coyotes mostly try to kind of stay on the edges of human society and then but they will uh you know, eat the the other urban exploiters like rats, pigeons, raccoons. You know, maybe not a raccoon, raccoons pretty fierce, but a baby raccoon for sure. Although well they eat they probably what you were about to say. But yeah, they

do sometimes eat small dogs and pets. Yeah, yeah, they totally do. An on Aslee, I don't know if we're like watching evolution in real time, it can't possibly be having this fast, right, But since I've moved to l A like sixteen years ago, I feel like the canaties have gotten boulder Like they jump into people's yards now, they will follow if you're walking your dog on a leash, they'll still follow you even though, like dogs right next to a human, they're getting wild out here and smarter.

I think, well, you know, it's interesting you say that because even though genetic evolution tends to be slow, somewhat slow, although you know, with extreme pressures, it can definitely happen much more quickly than you would think, Like you can have UM with adequate pressure. Some genetic changes that happen over uh, you know, several generations, usually not too extreme,

but some at least certainly. We can see that when we try to like put artificial selection on an animal in just like a few deck gids, you actually see like some really interesting changes in their their genetics. UM. But with coyotes you will have like, you know, fluctuations I think in both things like kyote population and coyote boldness based on the availability of food, on their proximity to urban environments. And you know, coyotes are pretty smart.

They are, I think they're they I'm not sure like where I would rank them next to something like a cockatoo. Cockatoo's puzzle solving is probably better. It's always hard to sort of compare intelligence between two different species because their intelligence is just going to be very different it's not necessarily better overall, it's going to be better in some ways and worse than other ways. But coyotes um are highly intelligent. There there are social pack animals, and so

they have um a lot of really complex behaviors. And so it wouldn't surprise me if over sort of you know, even over shorter periods of times, they could get bolder or more timid based on the situation and based on maybe even learning from their other coyote, their other pack or their parents, learning their behavior and sort of taking cues from that. And this is actually what is happening with the cockatoos in Sydney. So they are learning from

each other how to open garbage cans. So certain sulfur crusted cockatoo flocks figured this trick out. It probably started with one or maybe a few individuals learning this and uh then it spread to other individuals in this flock. And like I said, cockatoos are very intelligent. They're great puzzle solvers, so it really doesn't take too much in terms of inspiring them to figure this out. So now you have entire flocks of these cockatoos who understand how

to open these garbage camps. But I am so proud of them. I love that. I mean, I know I'm not in Australia, so I can't be annoyed by it. I think that is so great. And this article that you linked to says that um garbage cans are look the same across all of Australia. Is that like part of the puzzle solving that they're good at. They're like, oh, this is a white bin with a red thing on top. I know what that means. You know what I bet

it is. I think you're probably exactly right, because you know they have learned that this is a source of amazing thrown out. I don't know what is it, veggammite what they have in Australia, and they are super into that. I actually don't know if they like vegam might maybe even a cockatoo was like, I don't know about this. I like, I eat garbage, but I'm not gonna not gonna eat vegamine. I'm sorry, I actually I don't know that much about veggammite. Maybe it's very good. I apologize

to all my Australian listeners. I'm just teasing you. It's probably great and I love you guys. Yeah, that is so funny because I think does the general public no, Like Australians love podcasts more than any other nationality. We have to be so careful about as east right, And I mean, you know, Australia. I talk about Australia all the time because they have some of the most amazing animals there. So yeah, I got I gotta be careful about insulting Benjamine. I'm gonna lose like of my listeners.

But yeah, so so these uh, these sulfur crested cockatoos are showing some evidence that these birds can have a culture because it is certain flocks of these that have figured out this garbage opening eating technique. And so you know, you could say that these cockatoos have a culture of you know, garbage eating, which I think is just really interesting because we think of humans as having a culture. But then when we try to extend that to animals, uh, you know, I think it's it's a harder sell to

be like, no, animals can have a culture. But in my opinion, this is absolutely a sign of animal culture because they're learning something like you have some innovators who learn this and then they pass it on down the generation. So you'll have young cockatoos, young naive cockatoos learning this from their flock and then doing that behavior. And I think that's a perfect description of culture. Yeah, I agree, absolutely.

Another thing, I think that's really interesting, especially because you're bringing up your observations on coyotes in l a Um. The research on these cockatoos was done using citizen science, so residents of a community documenting the behavior of animals that they will see in their more suburban or even urban environment, and then they will send their findings to researchers.

And if you live in l a Um or Sydney or I mean probably many many cities around the world, there are if you like Google, like citizen science and then your city, you can usually find places that you can like send photos to or send observations too. And they really really appreciate, uh you writing in because you

will help with their research, with their observation. So if you see something interesting, if you take a picture of it, you can send it into I think I Naturalist is a really good one because I think that's um for a lot of different regions. You can send that in and then tag basically where you spotted this animal, and then researchers can look up these observations for their research.

So yeah, if you if you feel like helping out with UH with animal behavioral research and you spot an animal, um of course, never approached the animal, never try to, you know, do your own experiment on the animal. But if you take a picture of it or make an observation, you can send it. Send it into like I Naturalists, or like google citizen science UH with your city name, and usually you'll you'll find some things there. And it's

really cool. It's really amazing that we can all kind of get together and learn more about garbage rating, cockatoos or even like coyotes in Los Angeles. I just had the most fascist idea, but I believe in it. I think I feel like every time you move somewhere, you should be required to do citizen science for a year. I'm on board with this. If you want to become the dictator and and do this, I for one supported Okay, good,

I found my first supporter. Yeah, because people can sometimes be so disconnected from everything around them, including the animals. And I do think like this is such a stupid example, but sometimes I'll hear like banging around in the little breezeway behind my bedroom, and you would think that that would be scary, except for I've learned by now that that is the resident raccoons who are, by the way, that most enormous raccoons I've ever seen in my life.

They live in my neighborhood and it's just them, like, I don't know why they're so loud, but they do it all the time, and I'm not scared of it. So like everyone who moves to a new neighborhood to have that understanding of like the other creatures around them. I mean, you know, we've these sort of sprawl of human society has been pretty pretty drastic, I would say, And so yeah, getting used to our animal neighbors, I mean, and not seeing them as you know, pests, because like

raccoon outside is not not hurting you. You know, you don't want to pick it up and let it scratch your face up, but you know it's it's not hurting anyone. Maybe it'll make a little bit of a rucus, but probably to them. We're making a lot of rucus with our with our exact weird metal things with wheels and our weird trees that buzzing sounds with big wires coming

out of them, so you know, perspective, we're the loud ones. Also, one time, my dog and I were chased by a skunk, and I keep hearing people be like, skunks don't chase and I'm like, I didn't make this up. I need to report this to someone. We should understand that skunks are piste off enough at us now that they will chase us. Yeah. My scariest animal encounter was with a skunk standing fully upright, like not even you know, the back the handstand they do when they're about to spray you.

He was just like standing on his hind legs like a person staring at me from the darkness, and for some reason it just looked it looked like a tiny sasquatch, and I and my dog and I both panicked. So I, I for one thinks, as much as I love skunks and I think they're amazing, if you if one of them is standing staring at you at nighttime, it's scary. Yeah. No, absolutely. The one that chased us was screaming to like it was a full experience terrified. Yeah, yeah, weird, weird. It

wasn't the time we got sprayed. We got sprayed by a different skunk. This one just chased us. Yeah, I figure it had babies or something like that. Yeah, I mean, like they'll sometimes try other techniques to scare you off other than spraying you, because you know, they would prefer not to have to waste their their good that good

skunk juice that they've been cultivated. So like, if they can, you know, kind of scare you off without having to spray you, they will, But like they will definitely spray you if you present to them a threat, especially doggies, because doggies don't get it. They think that they're making a new friend. They think they're sniffing a new butt, and then they're going to get sprayed in the face and then it's tomato juice baths for weeks. Yeah. Yeah,

it's the worst experience I've ever had. So we have talked about birds who will go just about everywhere but trees to feed. So what exactly do you think we're gonna find in a tree today? Well, if I had to guess something that's not supposed to be in a tree, well that's all just a matter of perspective, because we're gonna find some goats right in a tree. So goats are wonderful climbers. Uh, and they can indeed climb trees and they will do it. Yeah yeah, well, so goats

are incredible. I love pigmy goats because they're absolutely the cutest, so cute. We had them when I was growing up, mostly pigmy goats, but occasionally we get other kinds of goats, and I remember not caring for Nubian goats. Um, I don't think they're I mean, pygmies are probably more used to humans because they're so cute, and sometimes people keep them as like indoor pets. But Nubians are like, I don't know why I'm here. I don't know why you're here.

They're seriously, they're like they're they're a serious. I mean, they are domestic goats, but they they mean business. Yes, yeah, they're not here for a good time. I mean they're there for a good time, but not for your good time. Oh shoot, I thought it was all about me again. But yeah, so uh yeah, goats in Morocco will climb

trees to eat argon fruit. So uh. These goats are domesticated, but like many domesticated animals found all over the world, they often are very comfortable roaming free rather than being restricted to feeding in confinement. In fact, one might say they prefer to be able to roam around and feed in graze and engage in interesting feeding behaviors all on their own. Imagine imagine that. So, uh yeah, this will lead to really interesting behaviors, such as the goats climbing

trees to feed on the argon fruits. So, and this is not just one goat hanging out in a tree. This is many goats in a single tree hanging out, which can be a really interesting site. I can't imagine seeing this in real life. I would absolutely lose my mind. This is so funny. It's also cute. It's also like slightly menacing. There's a lot going on. If I didn't know what this was and then I happened upon it, I'd be like, well, I'm about to get possessed by Satan,

aren't I? Yeah? This is like what's that goat's name from the Witch? Like handsome Handsome Jack or something. No, that's from a video game. What's the goat? What's the goat from the goat? Goat from the Witch? What's his name? Black Philip? That's him. It's so cute. I can't. It's really hard for me to take that horror movie seriously because he's such a cute little goaty. I think goats are very cute, yes, but you know, goats, they have

a fierce personality. Like you mentioned, not all goats want to necessarily, you know, just like hang out and cuttle and romp around indoors. They like to be outside and be wild and do their stuff, which in this case for these Moroccan goats is climbing up trees, chewing on these argon fruits and spitting out the seed. So herders because again these are typically not just like or feral goats, These are actually goats that belong to a goat herder.

But they will encourage their goats to climb the trees to get more I mean it ranges the why people like these goats to climb the trees. Sometimes it's a

good thing, sometimes it's a little more nefarious. So in the autumn um, the you know goats like, and in sort of the more winter months, it's a little harder for goats to get good nutrition um, so the goat herders will sometimes prune the trees to make it easier for the goats to climb up there so that they can eat the argon fruits get a little more nutrition. And they will actually sort of cultivate these trees specifically so that the goats can climb up when the fruit

are ripe and ready for these goats to eat them. Okay, I love that, but reminds me of those what do you call them? Cat? Whatever's cat or catap No, It's like when people will build structures in their house for their cat climb on or cat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, cat walks, cat trees. I'm not really you know, cats, uh, cat high rises exactly. It's just sort of the same thing.

And I understand that there's like a more basic reason for doing it, but like to imagine some people actually have fun like pruning these trees in a specific way. It's this is adorable so far. Yes, I mean sometimes the goat herders also gain from the goats eating the fruit. I mean, the goats are having a good time eating that fruit, and the goat herders will collect the argon seeds that they spit out, which can be pressed into a highly valuable argon oil, which is used both in

cuisine and in cosmetic products. Yeah, I was thinking argon oil is probably really big business right now. It's in like it's such a selling point of so many skincare products. Absolutely yeah, And so you know, good chance that your argon oil was spit out by a goat. I love that. Unfortunately, some maybe little bit less scrupulous herders will run a little bit of a goat in tree racket. Uh. They will encourage or manipulate the goats to stand in the

trees so that tourists can take photos of them. And it's I mean, if they're just encouraging the goat to go up in the tree, or hoisting up the goat and putting it in the tree, it's probably okay. But if the goats are tied to the tree, I don't think that's a great time for the goat. Just I mean, yeah, generally speaking, if the goat wants to be in the tree, the goat will go up in the tree. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I have this thing lately about leaving animals alone, Like I always wanted to go on safari, and now I'm like, no, I don't want to go on safari, Like they don't need us watching them all the time and coming into

their habitat. So yeah, no tying goats and trees. Yeah, I mean I think that like if you see goats hanging out and trees eating organs argon fruit, and you want to like take a picture of them and stuff, it's I don't think that's really hurting the goats, But yeah, you don't want to tie them up in the trees. That's probably not good. But I think from what I read,

I don't think that's like super common. I think the most common thing is just you know, goats like to climb up there and eat the argon seeds or the fruit,

at least the fruit that surrounds the seeds. And the interesting thing there was actually research done on the these goats to determine whether they poop the seeds out or they spit the seeds out, and they actually they do indeed spit the seed out more than and they don't generally actually eat the seed because argon seeds are pretty big and they're too large to comfortably pass through the goats digestive system, so they will spit them out or

regurgitate them rather than poop them out. I see. Well, I'm sure that's a comfort to some argon oil enthusiasts, I suppose, although I mean people eat that or drink that coffee from the civit what is it? The copy look coffee that is like from the digestive digested coffee cherries that civets will will eat and pass through, and

so that is collected from civitt poop. Yeah, but I just learned about the process of decaffeinating coffee, and I know not everyone drinks decaff but there's all kinds of horrible chemicals involved, and so I'm like, that's like the civitt poop is the least of our lords. I actually cannot recommend drinking the civitt poop coffee. I mean, first of all, it's obscenely expensive. So why Also there are they're like unfortunately because it got so popular, probably because

of the weirdness of it. Uh, they're like these civit farms. So instead of just like collecting the civit poop, it's like these civits like in in this sort of farm situation where it's kind of like kind of like the CAFOs, like the concentrated animal feeding operations where they you know, put them in very small uh containers and like overfeed them so that they poop out more and that that's bad,

you know. So, yeah, humans are so weird, very straight, like we cannot just be like oh this is cool, Like we just demand more and more and more and don't go how like why why do we have that as a species? I mean I could I could just say because of money, but that's probably a little bit of a cop out. Well someone should find out, Yeah, someone should get on that. Why why humans so naughty should be? That should be a study. She was such naughty,

naughty rascals. Yeah, no, it's you know, I think that we can definitely how we can definitely admire animals and even you know, even have sort of these interesting interactions where like they eat the fruit, they like the fruit, we want the seeds, they spit out the seeds. That's fine, just as long as we're not jerks about it, right yeah, which, you know, it sounds like a lot of people, a lot of a lot of people that manage these goats are not jerks about so I think it's potentially okay.

You know, I have not looked into like whether it exploits human aber. Maybe it does and that would make me sad, but I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, so so far, so good in fingers crossed, fingers crossed. Otherwise we need the goats and people to form a union, you know, wouldn't be cool. Yeah, I would. If I unionized with a goat, I would feel extremely, like, very secure, because I know that goat would like have my back. Yeah. I gotta imagine that once a goat says they'll do something,

they really commit to it. Yeah. Oh absolutely, I mean just very very stubborn. They could sit in a tree and be like, you can't. You can't break this strike because you'd have to come up in this tree first, which you can't. Yes, they have such good organizing tactics. Yeah, yeah, um. And so what's interesting about this is these are, of

course domesticated goats. These are goats that have been selectively bred to be insticated to be better of farm animals, um, to make it easier for us to collect their milk, you know, even use them for meat. So the question is like, did these argon trees like the fact that they spit out the seeds means that they are able to do some seed dispersal, which is potentially good for

the argon tree. Too many goats in the trees is actually bad, like that can damage them or if the goats can get in the trees before the fruit is ripe. So the question is like, do these are these argon trees? Could they have evolved sort of with the goats in mind, because goats, the domesticated goats, are a lot younger than the trees, like the trees have been around a lot longer. So if the argon trees had any sort of evolutionary relationship with goats, it would have to be with their ancestors.

And the original wild goats from which we bred domesticated goats did act actually originate in the Mediterranean basin, which includes Morocco, and so it is possible that these wild goat ancestors did actually climb these argon trees and chew up fruits and spit them out, just like the modern

domesticated goats. In fact, close relatives of the wild goat, the Ibex dusk, sometimes climb trees to graze, which indicates that the tree climbing of domesticated goats maybe a wild behavior that they've retained over all of this time of domestication. That is just very cool, these modern goats doing ancient things. Yeah, I like that for them. Yeah, I like it for

them too. Good for you. Goats. Also, I don't know what breed of goats these are, but these goats the you have pictures of are so shaggy, they're very cute. I mean I think they are. They might. I mean basically there are there are a few Moroccan breeds of goats. But yeah, they're just they're just Moroccan domesticated goats. I think there may be like two or three breeds that tend to tend to be in these herds, so uh yeah, I mean, I mean they're they're all all domesticated goats,

I think are derived from the same line of goats. Uh. And then they of course, it's kind of like dog breeds how like, even though they're all derived from sort of the same line of lineage of original uh, domesticated dogs, we have a huge diversity of them because of how strange we are when domesticating them. So we have the

Chihuahua and then the Great Dane and they're both dogs. Um. Similarly, I think these goats, uh, you know, they they are of these just the general domesticated goat lineage, but they are specifically a few breeds of Moroccan goats. Okay, I they're nice, they are very flack. So table manners can be wild, like the flamingos who eat upside down and spit out muddy water, or goats who eat up in trees and spit out seeds because there's a lot of spitting that they do. But we have also talked a

little bit about table manners and culture. So uh, we talked about those sulfur crested cockatoos that seem to have a bit of culture of learning how to open garbage cans from their flock. Uh. And humans, of course, as we talked about, have different kinds of table manners across cultures, from how you hold your utensils to what kind of

utensils you use. It's all sort of there. There's a huge diversity in terms of food culture and what is considered rude in one culture may be considered polite and another like like you were mentioning earlier, Catherine about like burping and slurping. Mm hmm. Yeah. And so two of my interests are one is etiquette books and one is advice columns. And something that I've seen come up a couple of times is when Americans go to Europe and

vice versa, and some people. I'm remembering in particular this letter about someone with New German colleagues and the Germans were mean to this American about the way the hands in which she was holding her knife and her fork. And I'm left handed, so I can never remember which one is correct in America. But it's so interesting that it can be that minute, like which which hand is

holding the fork? Like ultimately who cares. But at the other hand, people can make a big deal out of it and like shame you for it, which is not the intention of etiquette. Yeah, and I mean here in Italy, I'm still trying to learn all of the different rules of a kid. I'm sure I break them constantly. And it really depends to on your region. I live in Northern Italy and southern Italy. There you have a whole

different set of etiquette and rules. And I'm, you know, because I haven't lived in southern Italy, I don't know

too much about it. But one of my friends was telling me about this is that like you, if you eat everything off your plate in certain and certain locations in southern Italy, it is a sign that you want more food, so you are basically you have to leave if you're done eating, you have to leave a little bit on your plate, because basically what that's saying is that you have you simply cannot eat more food, but it was delicious and you'd like to eat more, but

you are so full you can't even finish the last few scraps on your plate. But if you clean your plate off, it means that you have such a good appetite that you could eat more, and so they'll serve you more, and you know expect that you want more. So that stuff is so hard. There's a Russian staurant here in l A that I like, but the owner, if you don't clean your whole plate will be absolutely crust full. And it's just it's like, I don't even

know if it's cultured by culture. It might be house by house, like whether you're supposed to finish all your food or that one is so tough, and like, we wouldn't need all these arcane etiquette rules if we were allowed in every society to just be like, I'm not very hungry right now, but sometimes you aren't supposed to do that. Yeah, yeah, I mean it is. It's so it's very tricky. Well, just as humans have different rules of etiquette based on your country, the specific location in

your country, your culture, even your own family. It's just so so many different types of etiquette. This is the case for our cousins, the chimpanzee. Uh So, chimpanzees are our evolutionary cousins that you know you may not want to invite to dinner, But we are a laden and they are very complex eaters with a very diet there omnivores. They are also highly intelligent, highly social, and they are

capable of using tools. And so researchers wondered if all chimpanzees have the same eating habits, used the same tools, essentially, whether they use the same utensils, whether they have the same manners, or if they could differ based on their population. So they presented two different chimpanzees from different populations with a food puzzle, so thin holes filled with honey. Basically, they drilled these thin holes in like I think a piece of wood or or or some other solid block,

and then filled it with honey, which chimpanzees love. Who doesn't love honey? I love honey. Um. And so one group of chimps is like one population of chimps tended to use their fingers or roll up leaves to get at the honey, whereas the other separate chimp population tended to use sticks instead. And so they found that this actually correlated to their habits, like when they're just generally

eating anything. So in one population they tend to use their fingers or they use rolled up leaves as their tools to get like termites out of a mound, whereas the other population would tend to use sticks as their utensil. And so these two different separate groups would have different ways of solving this puzzle based on the etiquette basically of their their own population. That is so cool. That is so interesting to hear about. And I guess like I shouldn't be so like blown away by it because

we know that humans use different utensils. But this is really cool. I like knowing that. Yeah, it is cool. I mean it's I think it is good too. It's humbling to remember that we aren't We are special as a species, but we're not as special maybe as we think in terms of uh like that every aspect of human culture is not completely unique, right right? Yes? And what's so what's interesting with the chimpanzees is that they probably excel on two fronts, both on individual problem solving

and social learning. So if you have a naive chimp chimpoo has not had the opportunity to learn from other chimpanzees, they will figure out tool use on their own. Um, but they are also very good at learning and they're highly social, so they will copy behaviors. So these chimpanzees will copy these behaviors, not because it is the only way for them to learn how to use a tool, because they can learn on their own, but it is

because they are really optimized for being highly social. So even though they are capable of learning how to figure out tools on their own, they tend to go with what the other chimpanzees in their own group are doing, so they will they prefer basically to learn maybe from their mother or from their peers. Then they would do just like trying to haphazardly learn on their own, which is exactly what we did exactly. Yeah, Like, we can figure out problems on our own, but it is so

much easier and so much better to learn from each other. Yeah. Yeah, if one of our ancestors already figured it out, let's go with that. Well, not to be a pedant but uh, the they aren't actually our ancestors, they are our cousins, so we Oh no, I meant as humans, So I was, I was really patronizing for no reason. It's okay, I do that all the time. It happens podcasters. Actually, did you see me, like push my glasses up and like go actually actually Katherine, Yes, so yes, we yes, our

human ancestors we we like to learn from. And you know, I imagine like if if chimpanzees and humans had to eat dinner together, that we would maybe disagree on how to hold our you know, various implements, but you know, we'd we'd we'd all be trying. Yeah, And like if that happened, if humans could get over themselves enough to be like this is different, we're not better, then that would be illuminating as well, because it's not like about us having to teach them how to do something. It's

like they actually have their own way doing it. Yeah. No, I love that, And I would though also love if like chimpanzee got really offended that you were using a fork and not rolled up leaf, smack the fork out of your hand and be like that is not how we do things around yet yes, I love that I could see it happening. I don't. I don't know if this is just correlation, but I feel like I've heard multiple stories over my life about chimpanzees ripping humans faces.

All it does happen and to me another thing, Yeah, yeah, I feel like that indicates that they have like strongly held opinions. Yeah. Yeah. Chimpanzees are not the chilliest of the great apes. They are. They're strung pretty, they're wound pretty tight, like they're they're high strung, high maintenance. Uh, if you want a chiller ape, bonobos are much chiller. They they're much cooler. I mean, they have much chiller culture of their own. Chimpanzee is a little more um,

you know, a little more face rippy. I'm going to say, yeah, more face. But also the bonobos are like I try to be sex pause sat but they're like a little more free than I feel like I would be comfortable with. Like I don't need to see people masturbating and doing it constantly. They're very sixties seventies sexual revolution. They are.

It is a constant swinger party. You go visit the bonobos, they've got a glass bowl with all the keys in it, rolled up leaves in it, and they're like, hey, leave your rolled up leaves in the glass bowl because you know, yeah, there needs to be chimps and bonobos cannot be the representatives because they've both got issues, major issues. Yeah, somewhere between the bonobos and the chimps. Maybe that's what we are though, Oh makes you think that probably makes doesn't

make any sense evolutionarily. But you know, hey, it sounds good. It sounds you know, yeah, it sounds sounds cool. Truthy ish uh. Well, before we go, we have to play a little game and it is called Guests Who Squawking the Mystery Animal Sound Game. Every week I play a mystery animal sound in you the listener, and you the guests, try to guess his squawking. And this can be any animal in the entire world, so birds, uh, insects, mammals, cetaceans which are whales, fish? Did I mention birds? It

can be anything. So with an open mind and open ear holes, I will play a sound and you will try to guess who is making that sound. So last week's Mystery animals sound hint was if you hear this coming from the walls you are in a heap of trouble. Is the the hint that you gave earlier related to this song. So the hint for this sound is, if you hear this coming from the walls, you're in a heap of trouble. Is it a termite? You are correct? Oh, that's exciting. Yes, yes, this is the sound of an

agitated termite. And you do not want to hear this coming from your walls. You don't. Congratulations to Ari L, Natalie In and Joey P who correctly guessed termites, and I have to issue ama culpa, an apology and oopsy whoopsie. Last week, I don't think actually announced the winners to the guests who squawking game and you guys who guessed the hercules beetle that was my bad, That was my goofer. So the winners of that issue that that round of guests who squawk was Remy H and Joey P. Good

job you guys. Sorry I forgotten to do that last time. Please forgive me. Speaking of table manners, these little guys would eat your whole table and the rest of your home. These are termites. If you hear this, it's a very bad sign because you may have a termite infestation. So before we hate on termites for destroying your home, let's learn a little bit about them and appreciate them. So termites are you social? So they live in a colony structure similar to bees or ants, where you have a

reproductive cast system. So the queen reproduces uh, and the other termites worked together for the colony. So termites will communicate with the colony using pheromones or sometimes using headbanging, just like any good metal fan. So the soldier term mites, when they detect a breach in the tunnel of the colony, will start banging their heads against the walls, which causes that clicking sound and alerts workers to come repair the breach. So why do termites eat your house? Uh? So basically,

termites originally would eat decaying wood in forests. Uh. And so they are actually really good for the forest because they help with the process of decay. They're able to digest wood with the help of gut microbes. So baby termites actually are not born being able to eat wood. They have to be fed regurgitive, which is you know, fancy word for throw up, which contains this gut microbiome. And so otherwise they would not be able to feed on the very tough to digest wood cellulose. So originally

they didn't really want to eat your home. Hey, Like, they don't know the difference between a decaying tree in a forest and your bunch of dead trees turned made into a big old hollow cube. So they're gonna eat it if they have the opportunity to do so. I love that context. I had no idea that, I mean, this is like such a humanoid like point of view, but I was like, they're in the woods too. I

think they only bothered us. They yes, they like as soon as we started building wooden houses, that's when they popped on the scene. Now, yeah, yeah, they Actually they are very good for the forest environment because they break down that dead plant material and uh they can they convert what is inedible for a lot of animals into actual edible things, like I just mentioned those chimpanzees. They love to eat termites because they are delicious little protein

filled snacks. So they are great for great for their little biomas. Not so good if they get into your house. And you know, I am, of course a big advocate of not being annoyed by animals. Living near your home or but in this case, uh, they are something to be concerned with because the structural integrity of your house is pretty important for you to be able to live in there without it all falling down on top of you. So, uh, this is a situation that is not tenable to coexist

peacefully with termites in your walls. Unfortunately, another sign of termites is actually frast So frost are these little wood pellets you might see in a pile, and these are actually little wood filled termite turds. So if you see what looks like a pile of tiny wood pellets that keep reappearing even after you sweep it, that is another sign.

So yeah, if you hear that noise or you uh see those little piles of frasts, you should probably call pest control because you got a situation that would be so upsetting to find that. I got a lot like our apartment has these beautiful wood beams, and I'm always just squinting at them looking for any signs of trouble. You know, you can't do that. You can't spend your time in Italy squinting at the ceiling. You gotta do

something else, all right. Well, uh, that's your opinion, but you uh this week's mystery animal sound The hint is is this an okay, get go or maybe a blank blank m I love the little last one, like air being let out of a sad balloon. So you got any guesses, Katherine? Unfortunately I feel like I don't know enough about jungle animals to to even guess like some sort of frog. Well, I mean, look, any guests I think is a good one, because if I tried to play this game, I don't think I would do as

well as my listeners do. To be honest with you, yeah, but unfortunately, I'm not going to tell you whether you're right or wrong, because you will have to wait all the way until next Wednesday for the answer. And I certainly won't just tell you after we turn off a recording. I would never do that. I am a fair and just podcast host. Uh. So yes, your maybe you out there think you know who is squawking? You can send

me an email at Creature feature pot at gmail dot com. Uh. Catherine, thank you so much for joining me today on this culinary journey from vomiting flamingos to goats and trees. Where can the people find you? Oh, let's see. Um, well, my podcast is called smart Mouth and that's two words smart in mouth um. And I'm on all the social

media like Instagram at smart Mouth Podcast. Um. I have a newsletter smart Mouth dot sub stack dot com, and then on Twitter just at Katherine Spires And you can find the podcast on the internet at Creature feature Pot on Instagram at Creature feet Pot on Twitter. That's feet That is very different. Ah. Yeah, and hey, thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate each never want to you listen nerves out there. It feels it's such

a privilege to be here all nestled inside your ears. Uh. And hey, but if you're enjoying the show and you have the time, uh and the inclination, if you left a review for me or rating, I would greatly appreciate that. It means so much to me, both in terms of just making me feel good. I read the reviews to make me happy. Uh, it also feeds the algorithm, which

I must always obey. So yeah, if you are enjoying the show and you want to help out, if you'll leave a rating kind of review that is just so good, so excellent. Hey, thanks to the space classics where there's super awesome song excel Alumina Preach Your features a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit the I heart Radio app Apple Podcasts, or Hey guess what? Where have you listen to your favorite shows? Look? Hey, honestly, between you and me, I

don't care where you listen to your podcast US. It could be anything, anyway, any shape, any for him. See you next Wednesday, m