Stop Using Dogs as Weapons

As a lover of dogs and someone who thinks people should never be brutalized by law enforcement, this subject is really gutting for me. So I thought at the end we could talk about some incredibly wonderful and heartwarming stories of how dogs can have jobs that are both positive for the world and are things that dogs love to do. Spoilers, We're going to talk about big fluffy dogs and cute, tiny pink ones and how they form an adorable team. And I have a couple of wonderful gifts, including our

producer Joel Monique. Joining me today is comedian biomedical engineer developing ventilators right now, actor activists, and honestly, if I list all your accomplishments. I'm going to run out of air. Polovic gonalins, how's it good? Good? How are you? Thank you so much? So so nice. Of course, of course we are going to talk about something that's maybe like a little heavier than we normally talk about on the show.

But I think it is so important. You actually suggested this topic to me, and it is something that I've also been interested in a while as a dog lover and as someone who cares about human rights. I guess just the use of police dogs, and I think, you know, police dogs are often seen as cute and noble and heroic, like you see them in the news all the time of like, oh look it's this this officer dog and he's so cute and it's from rentintin to pop patrol.

Dogs that are involved in like law enforcement have had very positive portrayals in media, and it's really easy to understand, like why this is the case, Like dogs are innocent, they're loving, their loyal It feels really safe to love a dog. And when you hear stuff like a dog helped apprehend a suspect, it sounds innocuous on the surface. It's presented in a way that's meant to be like endearing or inspiring, but the reality is unfortunately very grim.

When dogs are used as weapons by law enforcement. Police can commit acts of horrific violence against civilians using the dog as a proxy. And we're gonna talk about some pretty like pretty gruesome reality behind dogs being used in law enforcement. And I I kind of also want to like say, like, I come from this place of really deeply loving dogs. I have a dog. They're one of my favorite animals in terms of their history with humans.

How we co evolved with this is like a really devastating topic because it breaks my heart to see dogs being intentionally trained to harm people, and you know, in a way like dogs are also victims of this practice, although I think the human victims are more important to recognize. But it's just, yeah, it's it's gut wrenching in every sense of what's going on. It's upsetting. I also love dogs, I like viscerally feel connected to them. I had a

dog until recently. I grew up with a dog, but I've always felt that the behavior of the dog is reflected of any dog is reflected through the behavior of the owner or a result of the behavior of the owner and you know cops, so I kind of have I've never like blamed the dogs, but I also definitely see how they've been taken advantage of and used as a tool in such horrific ways. I mean, there's there's

two extreme ways to view dogs. Is like completely autonomous they do everything because they want to do it, or totally blank slate tools little robots that we can program exactly, and of course neither are true. Like their animals with a brain, they have their own personalities, they have their own stuff, internal stuff going on. But when we train them, we either tap into their best nature or the part of their nature that is very stressful for the dog

and can result in aggression. So yeah, So first, I think it's important to talk about the history of police dogs because it is actually really interesting, it's really upsetting, and I think like our concept of police dogs is kind of like they popped out of nowhere in the eighties with like McGruff the crime dog and but it's Turner and so K nine units. Police dogs are used by police is There a few functions that they're used for.

They're used for searching crime scene evidence, missing people, sniffing for explosive sniffing for drugs and attacking targets at the command of police. For this episode, we're gonna mostly focused on that last one because it is the most harmful

use of the dog. I know. There's also like a lot of controversy about drug sniffing dogs in terms of like how they will signal because they want basically, when dogs are trained that when you signal and you get rewarded for it, they want to signal, so they kind of look for their owner's body language. They want to please their owners, so they're not you know, like what is it broken door, broken window policing, but by dogs like they're looking they're looking for rewards, their quotas exactly.

They're looking for their treats, quotas. But you know, they're they're innocent. They don't understand the harm that they're causing by falsely indicating that someone has drugs and you know, justifying police force against that person was your jewel here. You don't think dogs know about the legal ramification. I just feel like, I just feel like, I feel like if dogs are going to be cops, we have to have dog judges as well, and it would be it

would be a faster turnover. You know, their lives aren't as long they would It would be you young pups in there. It would be more progressive. You'd have a lawyer dogs working pro bono. I wish it was this cute. I wish it was this cute exactly. I mean that's the thing, right, Like, so you see a police dog, you're like, oh, but not all it turns out, so the breeds of dogs used by police are typically German shepherds,

Malonois and Dutch shepherd's bloodhounds and retrievers. So like when we think of police dogs, we think of basically only German shepherds, but that's not necessarily true. They're definitely like very overrepresented as police dogs, but like there's also these other breeds that are used. It just occurred to me, it's like so funny that German shepherds have this bad rap because their cops. And then like Dalmatians are the firefighter dogs and everybody loves them and like they were

the stars of Hunter one. Dalmatians. Like it's like so reflective in terms of police dogs. They have pretty unsettling history. To put it mildly, they have been used to quote hunt down outlaws or basically whoever crossed the wealth holding class since at least the Middle Ages. So in the Middle Ages when there like you're an outlaw, maybe you're just someone who's not a noble, who you know, is growing crops that they don't want you to grow, or

looked at them funny, you know. So it's just like they they've yeah, been used by the ruling class since at least the Middle Ages. I'm sure before then as well. Um. The first organized police dog training program was developed in Belgium in eighteen nine, which was adopted by Austria, Hungary and Germany. In n German shepherd's bread in Germany had become extremely popular working dogs and became favored by police and oops. Hitler was also a fan of the breed.

He used German shepherds in Nazi Germany as violent weapons to enforce Nazism and to terrorize and maime victims of the Holocaust. It's yeah, you know, I'm not going to go into detail. It's pretty painful to go into but you can. Yeah, it's it's very horrifying to look at the accounts of people who were terrorized by these dogs. Again, you know, this doesn't mean that German shepherds are Nazis. They don't, they don't. Dogs don't have that kind of concept.

But they were trained and taught to hurt people and used by Nazis to enforce their horrific ideology. And it shows how you know, this, this animal that can be such a wonderful, loving companion, can be shaped by someone who is evil to do what they want because the dog doesn't you know, the dog is responding to the training, and the dog itself can often be abused in this training and it makes them extremely anxious and fearful and aggressive.

So German shepherds came to America in nineteen oh seven, so this was they did come here before World War Two. In nineteen eleven, the NYPD started using the same training program developed in Belgium. They were trained to see anyone not in uniform as hostile. Is that what it was? Oh, people in plain clothes were instructed to walk by their cages and tease them, encouraging them to be aggressive towards anyone not wearing a uniform, which I mean, that's monstrous.

That that's how they train cops to just teasing them until they're angry. Yeah, but it's like ramping up the dog's anxieties so they'll be more aggressive towards people. It's that's got to be like a constant. Their body has to be like in shock all the time. It's unhealthy not to mention um. Like if you have like just a domesticated animal, like they're terrified of like fireworks and like stimulation like that. You know, it's got to be

incredibly disorienting for dogs. Yeah, my dog Cookie can Like you get a text from someone and the phone goes off, and she's shaking. She hates like she she does not. That's just because she wants your attention for herself. She knows that you're talking to somebody else and she's like, show me your phone. Who is it? Who's on your phone? I should have named her Fomo, because that is her define trade. She cannot, like if she's in another room and everyone else moves to another room, she has to

be there immediately. She can't, like you go to the bathroom, she sits outside the bathroom. It's like, na I cannot a huge fear of missing out. So she's been trained to follow you around your own home. That's kind of crazy, that's right, that's right, she's been trained to follow me

into the bathroom. What kind of weirdo am? I? So, yeah, these are extremely stressful situations, and as we'll talk about again, ramping up the dog stress has been historically used and is currently used in training the dogs to be aggressive. So in the nineteen fifties, US police again attempted to establish canine units. An ex marine trained police dogs in Michigan purportedly able to be quote vicious or gentle on command. You said, this was the sixties. This is the fifties,

got it? Oh but yeah, the sixties. Yeah, we're getting there. But when these dogs were handed off to other departments, they and obey their new handlers because guess what, Dogs aren't robots. If they develop a relationship with a handler, they think you're their friend, they don't. You can't. You can't just program a dog and then pass it off as a robot. There sentient beings. This is also true for men. Please keep this in mind. You can't just

pass me off. Okay. In nineteen fifty nine, the Baltimore City Police established the canine Unit that became the precursor two dogs being used by police all over the country. These dogs were trained to violently tackle in takedown targets. Um. And so this is the point that I'm going to start talking about in more detail, the gruesome history of dogs being used for violence in the US. It gets pretty upsetting. So if you're listening with children, or if

you're sensitive hearing about violence, especially violence against minorities. By least, I mean, I know a lot of people have fatigue about that right now, and so I mean, I encourage if this is a new topic to you, I really encourage you get through this because it's so important. But you know, if you if you need to skip ahead, I'm going to insert in a timestamp to skip ahead where we're going to talk about something that's at the very end. We're going to talk about positive jobs that

dogs can do. So suck it up and listen to the truth. You you weak people, You're just you're telling children, suck it up. Well, I gotta learn someday that the systems work. Okay, I will say, give it a chance, give it a chance, and if it becomes overwhelming, you know it, feel free to pause. I know, at the very least on Spotify, it will pick you right back up when you come back a week later. A couple of days later, but it is it is vital information.

It's very important. Like if you if you already know this stuff, and this is just like gratuitous and stuff, I totally understand if you don't, just just try to it through it. And again at the end we're going to talk about some really uplifting stuff, So if you need to skip ahead, go to about the fifty eight

minute mark. Soon after the proliferation of the police dog program in nineteen fifty nine, they were used by police to violently attack minorities, especially those participating in civil rights movements, especially black young people. But that certainly wasn't when dogs were first used to terrorize black people in America, so they were used throughout our horrific history of slavery. There was the Cuban bloodhound that was used to catch people

trying to escape slavery. The dogs would mall people violently because the dogs were abused by the slave owners. So Cuban bloodhound trainers forced black men to abuse the dogs so the dogs would learn to fear and be aggressive towards black people, which is one of the most purely evil systems I've ever heard. Just forcing someone to abuse the dog, so that dog can be used to abuse people. It's yeah. After the Civil War, dogs were still used

to and abused as weapons to terrorize black people. In eighteen ninety four, an editorial lauted a Tennessee police forces training of a bloodhound where they had the dog tracked down a black man who was told to hide his trail. And even though he was ostensibly like a quote willing participant in this training exercise, obviously no, he probably wasn't. When he was told to come down the tree, he they assured him like it was fine to come down, But as soon as he came down, the dog bolted

for him and tried to attack him. And this was much to the racist amusement of the editorial writer and the police. So throughout Jim Crow, dogs were used to hunt people who escaped wrongful incarceration. There were even public competitions where dogs were forced to compete to chase down, you know, quote, escaped convicts, and the winning dog was declared ready for sale for the police. So that's the

history of police dogs in the US. So I think for us to pretend that is not part of our culture now is I mean, this was recent, this was like, there are people still alive that you know, we're lived through this era. So during the civil rights era, police dogs were routinely used to attack peaceful protesters, including children. Police dogs were not only used against civil rights protesters,

but against people regularly. And the reason that we see these images of the protests is that journal didn't go to these neighborhoods and document police violence regularly. They documented it when there was a protest, so we got to see it when there was a protest. But this was happening all the time, despite the fact that police dogs

often maimed people. Martin Luther King encouraged protesters not to fight back, citing the fact that white people were often more sympathetic to animals than they were too black people, and that the images of people defending themselves against police dogs would create less sympathy for the protests, which I think is really important because I think it's kind of relevant now, Like remember when that guy who was just like birding, he was going out birding in Central Park

and then there was that woman, Yeah, that a white woman who called the police on a black man just because he was in the park bird watching and asked her to leash her dog. Yes, because dogs chase sing off birds isn't good both for birding but also just for the bird populations. It's very disruptive, so it's not

good for the environment. So like, he very reasonably asked her to leash her dog, which she's supposed to do, and she threw a fit in like through throughout it, she was like holding her dog up by its collar, and like the dog was clearly very uncomfortable. But like so many people just commented on like the fact she was being mean to the dog, which, yeah, that's terrible, but kind of not the main the main issue there.

The main issue to me was just how I think it was very a very clear portrayal of a white woman showing that she knew how the system works and that she knew that when she called, she kept reiterating that she was going to tell the cops that it was an African American man, and the way she said it was so disgusting because she knew that it meant violence against him, um, and she knew that it meant

he could die. Like you could hear it her tone, you could hear it in the way that she was using the system to threaten the life of this man, and meanwhile she was like wrangling this dog and so it clearly wasn't out of care for her animal. It was out of vindictiveness towards this black, innocent man who was asking her something reasonable. The crazy thing was like they took the dog, like I think she her job

was threatened or something. I'm not sure of everything that happened, but they definitely took her dog and then gave it back, which is crazy. Like when we talk about canceling people or going after people. This was the week of George Floyd's murder and like it could have I think the stark contrast between how those situations ended was something that

really affected people. Because Christian Cooper, who isn't related to Amy Cooper, who was a birdwatcher, he didn't die, and it was it was so close to happening, um, and she like she was rewarded with her dog back. You know.

It was just it's just crazy to me that she's she's on camera abusing the dog and also just the goal of her to be you know, abusive towards her dog and then on the call with the police doing her fake tears her you know, like saying that he's attacking her and her dog using this idea of like, you know, I'm you know, come and hurt this person or kill this person because he's making me and my

dog feel unsafe. She's practicing unsafe dog loss. It was really upsetting to me because like the only thing he was at the reason they had any kind of interaction all is he was like, Yo, your dog is not on a leach in this giant park, which is unsafe for your dog and the people here. And so for her to be like like, you can't even lie and be like I felt threatener this man, it's just a guy passing me the party, be like, yo, could you

put a leachh on your dog? And for that you escalated all the way up to calling the cops, like there's some sort of I don't know, like private investigator or personal protector and they're just not The switch in her voice was so sociopathic, like from like screaming at him and advancing towards him and like getting too close to him during the pandemic by the way um and then to switching and pleading for the police to help

her and her dog. It was like it was incredible that it was captured that way, and that we were able to see it because I think like white people just did not believe that switch or that that's a regular occurrence, right, that the weaponization of a white woman acting like she's scared and upset and and that that. Yeah, it's extremely disturbing and it that's why when we learn about this history and think about these things that happened

in the past, it's not just like history. It matters right now as well, and it's not something just known to black people. She knew, That's why she used the system. So it's that I think it's like at that point, everybody was like, you can't this is just a random white woman. You can't say that white people don't know this and have been fine with it. Yeah, she was perfectly aware of what that meant. Uh. The use of police dogs against minorities continued to pass the civil rights movement,

obviously into today. In the nine eighties and nineties, l A p D officers regularly attacked young minorities with their police dogs and were known to refer to young black people as quote dog biscuits. Whoa that is, uh, yeah, a little black babies In the South used to be called gator baits where they really left on logs as we were alligators to the shore. Uh not all those babies made back home. Pretty awful. Did not know. We've had modern versions of that, which is just I did

not know the thing. Oh yeah, And there's like a lot of in the same way that they have the black lawn jockey, these racist depictions that go on the lawn of the thing. I can. I don't know the origin story of that, but it deeply disturbs me if I drive by someone's house and sea like, what are we doing? Like, I don't get it, but they would do that. They have the same thing with like gator bait T shirts, modern times posters like not that long ago.

Oh my god, it's crazy. This is why people have to say black lives matter in case you're used as gator bait, and the eighties and nineties calling people young people like kids dog biscuits because they use their dogs to attack them. It's yeah. So of course dogs are still used as weapons by police today. Research has shown that the prevalence, intensity, and bias of police dog bites.

So there was a study published in two thousand six in Injury Extra which is a really weird name for a scientific journal about some new injury, extra extra injury, extra extra injury. Yeah, but yeah, it is not not a necessarily a fun journal to read, but it is very informative. So they found that police dog bites were far more severe than non police dog bites, so a police dog versus a dog owned by a civilian, so people who were injured by police dogs were often bitten

multiple times, where civilian dogs typically only bit once. Researchers found that police dog bite victims were bitten more often in the head, neck, chest, and flank, They were hospitalized more often, underwent more operations, and had more invasive diagnos dick tests, and concluded that this was due to the

dogs quote special training. Another study published in twenty nineteen in the Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine found that from two thousand and five to two thousand, thirteen percent of people admitted to the hospital for police dog bite injuries were black. For civilian dog bites, only thirteen percent of inpatients were black. So that means that black people were extremely overrepresented as victims of police dog violence. This is not what we mean when we asked for representation.

This is not what we're hoping for. No, Okay, I didn't even realize the distinct. I didn't even it didn't even occur to me, the distinction of the extent of the injuries of God. And again, this is I think what we were talking about earlier, which is this isn't just like, it's not just like dogs being dogs. These are dogs trained to be more aggressive, trained to be more injurious than a dog, like even a dog that kind of lacks training, right, a dog who bites a person.

So full disclosure, my dog has some form of PTSD from a dog attack, and she's she's a little little dog, she's a little Chihuahba, so she's kind of nippy, and we've done a ton of training to de escalate. It always involves reducing her stress, lowering her anxiety. It's not yelling at her, it's not you know, it's like you to get a dog to be more calm and listen to you more. You reduce the stress, you reduce the anxiety,

You make them attentive to you by positive reinforcement. I've always felt like my experience, my personal experiences with dogs, has been like I've used like negative reinforcement like twice where I just kind of like, hell, I was like be good, you know what I mean, Like I couldn't. I'm just like mad at you know, I couldn't actually do anything to a dog. But like I've noticed that they always they always just want to do what you want to do. Like positive reinforcement is the only thing

that ever works for dogs. And like because they so badly want to be our friends, they so badly want to please us. So if they're doing terrible things, it has to be because they're trying to please somebody. And who are they trying to please? In this case, it can it can also be though a reaction to anxiety. Yeah, you know it's it is so like I would say, my dog probably has an anxiety disorder as a response

to um, the dog attacked she. She's actually been through two dog attacks, both times from an unleashed dog, so please leash. Yes, So she is not a fan of

other dogs to say the least. All of her behavioral problems are a result of anxiety, which I think is a really important thing to remember as we get into this next section about the training of dogs, how the training of police dogs work in questioning some of these claims made about police dogs, like that you can make them be vicious or or gentle on command, which you

know is a very questionable claim. So we will talk about the science of that and and debunk some myths about these ideas about police dog training when we return. There's a pervasive myth that a well trained dog will react only to commands and nothing else in their environment, as if the dog is a furry robot. Dog cognition is incredibly complex and they're incredibly smart, but they're not robots.

Research has shown that dogs and their owners are so emotionally linked that our stress levels will mirror each other. Experimenters interviewed dog owners and gave them a survey to describe themselves and their personality, as well as their dogs personality. The researchers then studied hair samples taken from dogs and their owners and look for the levels of cortisol, a

hormone related to stress. They found that the dogs cortisol levels were corral alated with the owner's personality, such as how the owners self describe their comfort with different situations. While the researchers reassured dog owners that being anxious isn't going to make your dog neurotic. It's true that dog sends and respond to our stress into our personalities, and the research showed that this connection is particularly strong and

well trained competition dogs. If anything, the more training a dog goes through, the more carefully that dog is going to pay attention to their owner, and the more sensitive they'll be to their owner's stress and emotions. This is important to keep in mind, especially when it's asserted that dogs can be used as passive neutral weapons, when in fact they're highly emotionally sensitive and intelligent animals who will do their best to please their owner and will often

mirror their owner's emotions. In many cases, this could be positive. Dogs and humans react to each other's emotions and support each other, forming friendships. But as will soon discuss, this relationship becomes dangerous in situations of police violence. When you guys were in elementary school, did you ever have a cop come to your school and do a demonstration of their canine officers. I feel like, yeah, yeah, absolutely that happened. Yes, it happened to me too. In sixth grade, I remember

police came to our school. They showed off their canine officer attack a quote bad guy who was another officer wearing protective leather gear and like on command, the dog just like shot off like a bullet, tackled this guy grabbed onto his arm, and we were supposed to think this was cool. It was terrifying, Joel, you that happened also to you where they like, look at our terrifying dogs.

Isn't that neat? Kids? Yeah? I still wonder what the point of almost any cop coming into the school to be like yo, because it wasn't after are like here's how you stay safe from danger, or even like here's like some of your civil like rights or anything like here's some of your civic ability to protect yourself or responsibilities or ways you can be like a good citizen and enforced safety on your own block. It was always like, here's drugs, don't do them, or I'll have to come

after you. Here's what drugs are, don't do them. Right? You ever heard of acid? Kids, Let me tell you all the details about it. That's crazy that it didn't even occur to me that they should do that, like teach us about our rights, like I like, I was just like I don't want to hear that from a cop, are you? But like that's what they should be doing. Yeah,

teach us are Miranda rights and stuff. But you think about like the ideal like police officer, right, and it's it's hard for me to even say that because I mean, I just imagined this space an empty space, just nothing officer.

But I think I think if we were too quote unquote rebrand the police, so if they didn't have like a low lineage of being slave catchers returning freed people back to slavery, and they didn't have a long lineage of being first about protecting the wealthy and their own pockets, but they were actual like civil servants out to you know, just help guide people uh to safety and kind of apprehend people who were breaking the law in a way that allowed them to be brought to justice instead of

ending up killed. I feel like a great officer would be the kind of person who is from the community, familiar with the individuals in that community, and has a fested interest in um making sure that that place stays safe, not at the expense of lives, but in a way that again is just engaging the citizens. So for example, like a theft is not oh my god, that guy's a thief, get him it's do you need pants? Like there was a story in Chicago about a guy he's homeless.

He's told a pair of jeans he needs some pants. Can't be pantsless. They will arrestue for that too. Um. He wounded up spending three years in prison just so long to give him any kind of quirky because he needed a pair of pants. Like the response to that is your thirty dollars for these jeans? Go live? You like how you bet? How much you bet? Some of

those arresting officers loved limbs. Oh my god. You know, we have a whole musical slash movie thing where it's like, it's so wrong that he was thrown in prison for stealing bread, and now man steals pants to clothe himself in jail. And if there's one way to get through to white people, it's through musicals. You know. It's like anyway to contact you and make sure you understand. But we need it in song. We're happy to do it

through acrobatic cats. I've heard that's a thing. There's a big question about brutal police dog bites, which is something uh that POLIVI we talked about a little bit. An email is like, are these dogs who aren't trained well enough and the multiple severe bites they deliver a mistake or are they doing what they are trained to do? And So if it's if these like maulings by police dogs are mistakes, then why are they safe to use by police? And if they're not mistakes, why are police

training them to mall people? So canine handler in South Florida, Charles Meslow, who is a criminal justice professor, claims, quote properly trained dogs are like a switch. You turn them on and you turn them off, which anyone who knows anything about dogs should probably question a little bit. So if this is true that dogs are like a switch that you can turn on and off, then all injuries inflicted by dogs on people are at the behest of police.

If it's not true, then dogs aren't like a switch you can turn off on and off and are not safe to use as weapons, especially in the way that police train them. So let's dig into how these dogs are trained. So how do you train a dog to bite someone in a way that is quote like you know, police enforcement or apprehending someone without mauling them. Now, I'm first of all going to say I don't think there's any way that a dog bite, even if it's just like you know, not mauling you, that is the right

thing to do. Like, I just don't think that it's right to use dog bites as any type of weapon or enforcement. Well, it's just so variable, right, Like if everything about like law enforcement and the the application ideally of of laws in this country are supposed to be specific and consistent in an ideal situation, then dogs using animals in any form is so is such a risk factor.

It's so variable exactly exactly. So, police dogs are trained to bite and hold, so the breeds they use have incredible jaw strength, and their training teaches them to apply more force than civilian dogs typically used. So remember earlier we talked about how police dog bites are more severe than civilian dog bites and this is due to their training.

And so in terms of dogs biting this this is mystifying to me the idea that you can train a dog to bite in a way, in a in a hard way, not like a fake bite like a movie, like a dog in a movie or something, but a real bite that you're saying I have complete control over. Because the way that dog communication and bites work is a scale of escalation. So there is actually a bite level system that was developed by animal behaviorist Dr Ian Dunbar,

and it ranks dog bites. So level one is like nipping in the air, the dog just warning you like it's not happy. Level two is nipping skin but not puncturing it. Again, the dog is trying to communicate to you, I'm uncomfortable, you're scaring me. I'm upset, Please get away from me. Um. But it's not trying to hurt you.

It's just trying to warn you. This is communicating. It's still not like for all of these it's like anytime you see this behavior and your dog, it's a sign that your dog is anxious, scared, or there's a behavioral issue and you you should address it um in a way that focuses on de escalation, reducing stress and if it's something that is like challenging, like talk to a

dog trainer about it. But so then level three is biting and puncturing the skin, but the puncture is pretty shallow, like more shallow than the length of the of the tooth.

So these are all like these are escalations of of dog anxiety, dog stress UM and so these are things that I had to deal with since Cookie had the traumatizing X variance with this dog and these variable levels of nipping and like, it's never never got beyond that, but it's still like this is a sign the dog is stressed or is not coping with anxiety in a healthy way, So you have to train the dog how to do that in a more healthy way. So level

four is a serious bite. It's a deep puncture or multiple puncture wounds, and it is an indicator that the dog's aggression and stress is out of control. The dog is biting and clamping down at this point. This is when dog bites can actually start to become fatal, and it is it's the thing with dogs and their behavior is like when dog trainers are talking to you about like dogs nipping and biting. It's an escalation. So like like you start a like you know these earlier levels.

Once you get to level four, it means that this behavior has been escalating for a while. Their stress has been unchecked. They have not been trained to deal with their anxiety and stress in a more healthy way. So this is a big warning sign for people with dogs. It doesn't mean the dog, like you know, is it's irreversible or anything, but it just means that there needs to be serious intervention. Um it gets more serious, much more serious. With level five is multiple bites with deep punctures.

It's the highest level before level six, which is the dog actually killing someone. This is the level that we see in hospitalization of people with police dog bites, like

a lot of these hospitalizations. So like earlier the statistics we talked about where with police dog bites they're more likely than civilian dog bites to have multiple deep wounds, which means that the dog is at this highest level of aggression on this scale, meaning that they have been trained to tap into like in terms of dog communication standards, this is an extreme reaction for a dog to do

against like a human or a fellow dog. Biting, clamping down, and tearing our signs that the dog is at a high state of arousal and aggression. The claim that the dog is this cool, level headed switch that they can turn off and on once they're at this level of

aggression is ludicrous. Honestly, there are multiple anecdotal stories of dogs biting bystanders and police officers indicating that dogs do make quote mistakes and you know, this is terrible, But I think it's not to say, like it's only terrible when the nonintended target is hurt. To target people with

this is it self wrong. So I have a question, Um, So, when these dogs are biting, I assume that not only the intensity of the bite, but also the location of the bite is it's significant, right, But even attacking the leg like your femoral artery, could cause you to die.

So like, what are they how, how do they how do they regulate that When a dog gets into the state of arousal where they are extremely agitated, very extreme levels of these stress hormone is going on, they start attacking things like the head, the neck, like you said, even if it's quote just attacking the legs, Your legs have important stuff in them, it has for moral arteries. It can't. Dog bites can, like severe dog attacks do kill people. It's still incredibly damaging. And why did why

did these violent attacks need to happen at all? And when a dog is taught to bite down and clamp down and shake, that will that will tear flesh off of someone and that is extremely dangerous, obviously extremely painful. If you are skeptical, which I kind of doubt anyone is at this point. There are photos of injuries that can be results of police dog bites and they are horrific. They leave horrific scars. You can see like how incredibly

it's damaging. And again, yes, exactly, and and you know, so a dog who is just maybe a dog who hasn't had that great training often doesn't engage in this type of biting like it's not it's sometimes they do, like severe bites can come from civilian owned dogs, but for the most part, the bites are like the kind of like level three bite of they bite you once and it hurts, and it can actually it can be injurious.

You may need to go to the hospital. But the dog is like it is trying to communicate with you in a sense of like I'm mad at you. Get away from me. You know, it's not you know, it's like not vindictive. It's just trying to protect itself, right exactly.

It's stressed out. It's trying to but like these bites were clamps down and applies pressure and holds down is an escalation of aggression where it's like the dog is at that point attempting to uh inflict an injury, not because the dog is bad or evil, but because the dog has been taught this is what you do. This

is you know, you get rewarded for doing this. So the idea that you can like basically work a dog up to this high level of aggression and then I can just say stop and stop the dog, That's just not how brains work. That's not how dogs work. The analogies, the analogies here of of cops with guns like just is so so similar because of all I think that there.

I can't remember where I got this data from, but a while back, I was just researching it for my own purposes, which means I was trying to prove someone wrong.

And I looked it up and there was like in certain police departments or something, there was like sevent of officers were like Caucasian, not including like Latin X or Asian um and they they There was also simultaneously studies where like white people believe that black people have like superhuman strength and our quote unquote animalistic right, and so

you combine that with giving them a gun. You combine those incredible biases and those numbers of the number of like Caucasian police officers with giving them a gun, and it's a very similar thing to an unrestrained dog that has been trained to attack minorities. Dogs aren't born racist, much like humans aren't born racist, but like a dog can be taught to fear people who are look different from their owners if their owners like teach them this

is who you fear. It makes me curious. I bet that there's not a lot of statistics on this, but it makes me curious to see how, you know, how all these dogs live with their their police owners. I think it's my perception, um like the you know in interracial relationships or marriages, like how they how those dogs treat minorities versus um dogs with all white families. I'm

curious about that. It's interesting. Yeah, So the justification for using dog bites uh as a police weapon is that it's quote pain compliance, which is the idea that the dog bite will cause quote pain, but injury, which will cause the target to comply. None of this sentence makes sense. So, first of all, as we've just talked about, you can't train a dog to bite just hard enough to hurt, but not so hard that they injure someone. That's not

how dog aggression works. You can't train people the officers right right exactly and for you know, like like the dog's communication system and aggression system literally is documented escalation of force, and you can't be like, okay, bite them hard enough to hold them down, but then don't bite so deep it it punctures an art, you know, like what is the dog a doctor who's like, I know just where to bite the person where it will hurt,

but won't you know, hurt them. It's it doesn't make sense. Um, there's no evidence that you can train a dog just to be aggressive enough to the point where it's like useful for arresting someone. Um. Also, uh, you know there's um the you're rewarding dogs for increased aggression, so escalate like dogs like to kind of escalate things that they're rewarded for. It's actually one of the tricky parts of training dogs with jobs is like you they get rewarded

for certain behaviors. If you want to selectively reward them for doing only those behaviors when they're supposed to, It's it's tricky because they want to do them all the time. They're like, wait, you give me a treat for that? I want to do that now, and I want to want to do that again. Now. I want to see you happy, I want to see you reward me. That's how dog cognition works. It's very very hard to get them to selectively only, you know, like only be aggressive

when you want them too. Is kind of yeah. So here's this is not just my opinion. This is also the opinion of certified dog behavioral consultant Dr Richard S. Pulsky, who says, quote, animal behavior analysis indicates that attacked attack trained knines are not automated, programmed machines oblivious to the

variables that control aggressive response ding. If one looks at the principles of animal behavior science, particularly with regard to principles of learning and conditioning, one easily understands why police canines are prone to behavioral error. For example, mistakes happen because the act of attack for the dog is self reinforcing. The reinforcing nature of the response increases the dog's motivation and arousal to extremely high levels, therefore increasing the chance

of the dog making a mistake. So you combine the dog who's being rewarded for being aggressive and the police officer who's rewarded for being aggressive. You know, it's like, of course, like what are like, how is this okay that dogs are used as weapons? Like it? That doesn't and none of these dog cops are going to tell on each other. They're not going to run it up the flagpole. You know, they're all in this gang together.

The other thing is, um that statement, that original statement that you're addressing the parts of said that the pain compliance said that it's in tended to cause pain but not injury, and the whole thing is moot because it causes people to die, Like you know, there's it's been all the way up to death, all these sorts of injuries, so that that whole statement in itself is false. Right, It's like it's supposed to do this except for this one time and this other time, and this other time

and this. You know, if you're saying like, well, this is the intended effect, we just have a few mistakes, It's like, no, if you have a bunch of mistakes, then it doesn't matter what you're quote. Right, this is the documented effect that we see in hospitals. So the other part of that thing, where the idea of pain compliance making a target quote comply, is completely absurd, So

like the whole premise of it is stupid. The idea that a person, when being bitten by a dog is going to calm down and become compliant is like the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard, both of someone who studied psychology and also I've dealt with um sort of a near miss dog attack. This was one of the times that Cookie got it like attacked by a dog, and I had all these logical ideas worked out of what I would do in that case. My mind went

completely blank. I picked up Cookie and I started like screaming, and the dog was like started to nip at me. And again, this was not like a very serious attack for me, but I was still freaking out and panicking, and I like thrashing around and and clutching the dog and freaking out. The dog biting me didn't make me more calm, And I can't imagine a situation in which a dog biting you would ever make you like, Okay,

I guess I just gotta relax now. And like, I feel like they don't know what pain is, and that's very confusing to me, because like any kind of pain, it's going to spike your adrenaline. Yeah, like just naturally. I don't know science, but I know that you do. Apparently you know science better than police, because that's absolutely true. So pain triggers stress hormones and the fight or flight response. So someone being attacked by a dog is not going

to go limp and compliant. They're gonna struggle thrash, which is an automatic response to pain. Um, And that thrashing and that panicking is also going to trigger the dog to bite. More so, it is putting dogs and people into a situation that is absolutely clearly going to lead to escalation. So this is UM. A victim of a police dog bite, a very severe one, described his experience when the dog started to tear into his legs, saying, quote, I didn't hear what they were saying. He's talking about

the police officers. I didn't hear what they were saying. My mind just went blank. That's what happens when you are panicked and in pain. So the idea that this is going to make someone comply when they are it's like they're shouting orders at him. He can't hear them because he's being attacked by a dog and he's scared, and the dog is seeing this guy thrash and struggle, and the dog is getting more scared and anxious and

biting harder. It's just like this is it's I don't know, it's like it really is reminiscent of the history of you know, using victims to abuse dogs, and then those dogs to abuse the victims. It's just twisted. It's The kicker is that people who struggle when being bitten by a police dog are often charged with resisting arrest. That's crazy.

That's they're resisting bites from a police dog, right as if the dog has like a couple of hands, like it's tiny handcuffs, like like give them a badge though, Like, well you don't have badges in uniforms, so they don't see the difference. Like that is wild. Yeah, yeah it doesn't. That's how do they get charged if there I've seen videos of them like on the ground, and they get charged with resisting arrest by a dog. Yeah, they're really trying to make some dogs go to hell. That's what

they're trying to do. They're trying a bit try to pit dogs against people just to make that statement all dogs go to heaven. Not true. But I mean I think, you know, and I'm not saying all this, you know to make people afraid of dogs. This is a problem of how police use dogs and abuse the trainable nature

of dogs, so domesticated dogs are not inherently violent. You can reward them for aggressive behavior that is a result of them being stressed, and like either through like training or or animal abuse, like they can learn to be

aggressive and used as tools of violence. This also, like I know that this is very like critical in terms of just like survival for for minorities, um, but even just on the other end of it, this is such a like a violation of the human experience because I so I know so many minorities must be afraid of

dogs because of their experiences with them. And it is such a white supremacist thing to take like part of the joy of human life and and guard it for yourself against other other people who want to partake in it. It's like the swimming pool thing. It's like, you know, like black people got made fun of for not being able to swim. Well it's only because they weren't allowed to, you know. It's like like it's joy Like how like how dare you take companionship with animals, like knowing how

much joy and love I get from it. To know that that same creature would trigger PTSD in a person is just so it's so disgusting. I can't absolutely it's

end it. Docs are a unique animal. It's been this incredible, unlikely friendship between these early wolf like animals and humans, and just like, huh, you know, it's actually makes more sense to get along and to take that in just that incredible like we're friends with an animal that's amazing, and use it for violence and evil and like you said, deprive people of this part of it truly is like this fundamental part of the human experience to bond with animals.

And it's also I mean, obviously the main concern are the human victims of police dog violence, but I think this is also abusive towards the dogs themselves. Um VA suppression, which is the hormone that indicates higher levels of aggression in dogs, is also associated with higher levels of anxiety.

So and aggressive dog is an anxious dog. And if you're training, if you're reinforcing a dog's aggressive behavior, I don't see how that dog isn't stressed all the time, you know, Like I mean, I've seen anecdotal things about dogs, police dogs like getting PTSD, and it's like, of course they would have these problems. I mean, it's your training dogs to be perpetually stressed and putting them into too stressful positions and making them respond to things with aggression,

which is stressful for dogs. It's not constant state of shock and fight or fight, right. Yeah, So I don't know, it's I just I I don't think dogs should be used as weapons. It's just not. It's not right. It's not right to the people that they hurt. It's not right to the you know, the animals themselves. It's just and I don't think the people who use them as weapons should get to have the joy of having a dog. It's you know what I mean, It's like, screw you, guys.

You don't get this fair. I mean, Tommy Robs should be for good people who don't hurt other people. Yes, but I I mean, thanks guys for sticking through this. I know this was um, it's not you know, it's a it's a heavy subject. I think it's really important to talk about. We are going to talk about how

we can have dogs have jobs that are positive. There are jobs that are both great for humans and also good for the dogs mental health and stimulation, and some of these are pretty incredible and inspiring, so we will talk about that when we return. One of the negative effects associated with the history of police dog use has been an increase in dog related phobias. Some research has shown that the use of police dogs during the Civil Rights era may have led to an increase in dog

phobias amongst Black Americans. What's especially heartbreaking about this is how dogs can have such a gentle, positive impact for people, and by using them as weapons, many people, especially Black Americans and other minorities targeted by police, may be forced to associate dogs with violence. The thing is, dogs are

not intrinsically violent. When their most admirable qualities, such as their ability to sense human emotion, their gentleness, their intelligence, and playfulness are all nurtured, they are remarkably loving and uniquely social with humans. Training dogs to hurt people is such a misuse and abuse of this special connection that we have with dogs. When we return, we're going to

end with something to lift your spirits. There are many jobs that dogs can have that are so incredibly wonderful and frankly impressive things that help people and that the dogs themselves seem to enjoy. We're gonna talk about therapy dogs, special doctor medicine, scientists, dogs, big fluffy dogs, and teeny tiny penguins, so stay tuned for that. So dog jobs don't have to be negative. They can be a huge

boon to humanity and to the environment. Dogs are perfectly poised to be one of the most uniquely well suited animals to work with humans. They're distant, wolflike ancestors, were already highly social pack animals and dogs have co evolved with humans for tens of thousands of years, developing skills such as reading our emotions and learning how to communicate with us. And now we have developed an incredible partnership

with these animals. I think it's our responsibility to treat this bond with utmost respect, both where people and dogs are concerned. So we've talked about what not to do, which is to use dogs as weapons against people. So now I want to talk about positive jobs that are

good for people and good for dogs. So these are jobs that instead of taking advantage of dogs stress response and aggressive responses to anxiety, these take advanta of dogs best nature they're loving, sweet nature and the things that bring dogs themselves joy. So first let's talk about therapy dogs and service dogs. And this I don't know. Whenever I see a therapy dog in a hospital with the goofy little face just about to go into the room and you're like, oh, I'm gonna kiss a little kid, like,

it's just it's the cutest thing. It's the sweetest thing. So there is a difference between therapy and service dogs. Therapy dogs are dogs trained to have a very stable, chill, calm personality, to be gentle and provide psychological comfort and health to those who interact with them, whereas service dogs are trained to provide aid to people with disabilities, such as seeing eye dogs, medical alert dogs, dogs trained to fetch in hailers or other medical supplies for those in need,

and dogs trained to provide mobility support. There's also dogs that like alert when someone's having a at a coal emergency, Like they can detect signs that someone say about to have a seizure, and the dog alerts that they're about to have a seizure. And it's it's incredible that we like dogs are so smart and so perceptive and we can train them to help us in this way. And these are obviously tasks that are incredibly important and wonderful. Can I add um a couple of jobs that I've seen.

I volunteered in hospitals and so like beyond even um just the therapy or the specific tasks, there are certain dogs. There are certain children with like very fatal peanut allergies and things like that, and so dogs that are able to sniff that out. In like the household allows kids to be able to interact with other children without fearing

for their lives. Like they're allowed to have people come over because the dog can like sniff the other kid and like make sure that everything's okay, or they're like they have their dog with them in the playroom and the other kids parents bring in peanuts and stuff and late like these children will literally die, you know, if they're exposed to it. So it's it's it's things beyond

um that, things that we don't even think of. I know that there was like when I was in college, we had a bed bug outbreak and they brought like they brought a little beagle for like our loft space, and then they brought a big beagle for like the floor or whatever, and so the beagles were sniffing out the bed bugs and it was like very cute and

very adorable there likeighting day on campus. Yeah, oh my god, that's so and like you've got the I just imagining them have this team dynamic of the little one being like kind of spirited and yeah, that's exactly bugs and like the old one, you know, like we're gonna get this job. Yeah, I don't know. It's just like it's there's so many Like when you don't use them for for weapons, which they can't control because they're in an

anxious state. When they're in a happy state, they can do so many amazing things, like they're social precision train I've seen videos of Golden retrievers picking up eggs. Instead of teaching a dog to be violent with their mouths, you can teach them to be so gentle with their mouth that they can pick up That's that's a TikTok trend. And apparently it's like a natural thing that dogs recognize not to hurt the egg like, and so everybody's like, hey,

i've heard dogs don't like crunch on eggs. Let me try with my dog, and like it's the first time that they've ever given their dog an egg, and and the dogs very gentle because they're perceptive about a lot of these things when they're not stressed out, you know, right exactly, and they're actually happy to like when they do these jobs as long as they're being trained in a positive reinforcement way. Of course that's a caveat, like the training itself has to be positive and and kind.

But when they are trained in that positive reinforcement way and they do these jobs like therapy and service jobs, like they are in a relaxed state. And they have actually been studies to confirm this. So a study and applied animal behavior science found that dogs who worked as therapy dogs were uh, not stressed in any measurable way. So they looked at their cortisol levels and their body expressions and found that there was no difference in stress

levels at home or in the hospital. So they were as relaxed at the hospital as they were at home. And you know, you can also like this is maybe less scientific, but you can look at the body language of a therapy dog and as they sit outside of someone's room waiting to go in, and they're so they their tails are wagging. They look like really content and happy and they're they're getting pets from kids. Like what more? Right there? They are getting you know, these interactions with

kids where they're getting loved and they're expressing love. And yeah, I mean that is that's like thin, Yeah, it is beautiful. It's dogs and humans at their best. It's also the tasks that these dogs often do are very similar to enrichment activities that are given to dogs to improve our

mental health. So I also love with that story you're telling about like alerting to the peanuts using a dog's love of peanuts and peanut butter, like for good humanity, where it's like I could smell a peanut them, I don't even think. I don't even think that dog probably never gets peanut butter, but a get chicken or something, you know, yeah of course, yeah, but like Cookie, Cookie could smell a peanut, but if she found it, she

just like crunched it down. I also, I also think it's like with these positive tasks where they're like protecting people. I just this is not scientific, but I just feel like it's what they want to do because they love people, like they want to take care of us, like we take care of them and like there's a partnership there and they're more motivated to like help us and they

are to hurt us. Well, when you look at the evolutionary history of dogs and how we like, I keep saying this, how we like co evolved with dogs are our society and dogs like they basically we selected for their wolf like ancestors who were not afraid of us and weren't aggressive, and basically like humans who enjoyed the dog's presence, dogs that enjoyed the humans presence, We formed this mutualistic relationship and we like there's early evidence and

we actually talk about this on an earlier episode about dogs, or there's early evidence of dogs being buried with these high value items like way way long time ago, meaning that we had this emotional connection to the dogs, and the dogs I think have an emotional connection to us because they are highly social, but their socialness has changed to be focused on humans like they they are studies that show like they look at our facial expressions, they focus more on the side of our face that is

more expressive. They unlike wolves, they're distant cousins. Like when they encounter a problem, they look at a human, They're like, help me with this puzzle, and there they really have evolved to look to us and to derive pleasure from our company. Um, and I think that's you know, I think that's that's great. And we we have a responsibility to our fellow people and two dogs to use that in a way that's positive. And you know, kind one of the things that kind of frustrates me is like

drug sniffing dogs. It's like, yeah, they have an amazing sense of smell. Instead of like the war drugs are so stupid, we could use their noses for these incredible feats, like dogs who can literally smell cancer in blood. So dogs have noses that are about ten thousand times more accurate than humans, and a study in experimental biology found that dogs can detect cancerous blood samples with almost nine

percent accuracy, which is like a superpower. It should be in every household, you know what I mean, Like rather than having these dogs like you know what, like, we should be able to have more access to these good dogs. Yes. So the reason that these dogs aren't like in doctor lab coats going around hospital sniffing cancer is because of the way that dog training works, which is it can but it's like we talked about earlier, why that is bad in terms of law enforcement, it can also have

limitations for good things too. So when you train the dog to first of all, you have to train the dog to detect a specific type of cancer. There are many types of cancer, so you'd have to invest in training dogs for each type of cancer. But also dogs need positive reinforcements. So when they like sniff or something and they properly signal and they get a positive reinforcement, like that is what keeps them wanting to do that behavior.

So most blood samples aren't going to have cancer. And so if you have a dog like sniffing around and never finding anything, the dog's gonna be discouraged. So you could potentially plant like um one you know has it in. But the problem is that if they signal and you have no way of knowing whether that like you these that you're basically diagnosing, so you don't know if they're signaling correctly. The problem is if you reward them for

signaling and they're incorrect, you're reinforcing a mistake. So they will keep signaling. Just they'll start signaling everyone. Suddenly all the blood samples have cancer because they want rewards. Um. But if you don't reward them for signaling correctly, then they get discouraged, like well, heck, you know I did the right thing. So you know, it's kind of like

um an artificial intelligence and stuff. You have to have a set of like labeled data that you know is like positive or negative, and then you just train the system this in this case the dog on that data.

But you would have to do it at regular intervals and with new labeled data um and and so that would take like a long time and also like a lot of samples that could be otherwise used for research, right exactly, But the fact that dogs can smell cancer may help us develop other tools for cancer detection, basically zeroing in like what they're actually smelling, what's binding to their smell receptors, and could we create an artificial dog nose for detecting cancer which would be and have the

benefits of the dogs being able to detect it. But unlike the dogs, it wouldn't get discouraged by like you're not finding it. Dogs like sad that they can't fight cancer? What is wrong with you? Dogs? Come on? Um? Yeah, but it is it's like again, like using dogs incredible gifts to further medicine and science. I think in a way that is again like these researchers are really thinking about the dogs in terms of like it doesn't work in this case to do something that isn't fun for

the dog. It has to be fulfilling for the dog or they they won't do it, and like that's like fair, you know. So another case, this is okay, this is my favorite, is dogs out there protecting the environment by being dogs. So dogs. Uh So. In the mid two thousand and there was a penguin crisis on Middle Island, Australia. Remember this, yes, yes, so um foxes were rapidly driving down the population of the world's smallest penguin, the fairy penguin.

And if you've never seen one of these penguins, there tiny little penguins that you could right now hold it. You could hold it in your It's just like the size of a burrito. It's so cute. So foxes from Mainland Australia were able to get to the island when changes in the sea currents allowed a natural bridge of sand to form. So probably our fault, I mean this might have been who knows, but I think this one might have just been on mother Nature being a being

a jerk. But the penguin population went from the hundreds to just a handful, which is alarming because the tiny penguins must be saved. So incomes Marima sheep dogs, which are big, fluffy white dogs that look like super friendly polar bears and are used by farmers to keep foxes away from their chickens. And one of these farmers like heard about the penguin problems, like, penguin's not too different from a chicken, Like, why can't we use these dogs

to protect the penguins. It's the first of all, I'm so sorry. It's criminal how much you're underselling the cuteness of these penguins. I looked them up, you guys. Okay, imagine like a chick, but in the shape of a penguin, and that's what it looks like, like a tiny little chicken when it's all yellow and fluzzing cute, but it's penguin. And apparently some people started putting sweaters on them. Oh

my god. And then also there's like pictures of the penguins cuddling up with the doggies and they're like little friends, I love nature friends. And then they made like little penguin doggy stuffed animals, so that so the original penguin protector dog is named Oddball, and she started the trend of these Marima sheep dogs being used to watch over the penguin population which has healed and has come back

into the hundreds. And the best part about this is these sheep dogs are not really violent, so they aren't. It's not like they're going around violently attacking predators. They are just so big and so imposing they scare them off. There. They initially like they're these like huge, gentle dogs that are very intimidating, very protective, so they'll they'll bark at a fox, but that's that's enough to scare off these little foxes. And but they're gentle enough to be around

the penguins without hurting them. So it's just I don't know, I want a Disney movie now. I was just about let you know that one already exists, Old odd Ball. It came out. It's available to watch on Prime video right now, and one of the stars is Alan Chuttick. So, oh my gosh, it's so cute. I can't Okay, yeah, I know what I'm watching tonight. That's my that's my Quarantine movie for two nights. Puppy and the penguins on

its head all happy. It's just so it's like again, like dogs used to be these like wolves that would just basically down a bunch of these penguins in one bite. But now they're just big, old, big old cuties, that giant old flukes who's like, don't worry a little, Prague's your chafe with me? Ah. And then the last story I want to talk about is similar, is is how do ugs are used as companions to cheetahs, which again I just love how like, like, man, how do we

protect these wild animals or make them safer or happier? Well, dogs do that for us, so why not these animals. So when cheetahs are orphaned or without siblings, like in a zoo or rescue, they are not having a good time because cheetahs are highly, highly anxious. I know, they look like sleek, you know, predator, and they are predators, but they're they're like little they have kind of the sweetest,

like shyest personality of any wildcat. They're very skittish, very like they live very stressful lives, and in the wild they actually either live like with their mom and they form these kind of family units, or like when they're adults, the males will form these like coalitions of of males and then the females typically once they start a family, they just like have the cycle of always having their

young around and having these things. So even though they're not um pack animals and they're not pride animals, they still form these close bonds with each other. And so a baby cheetah with no siblings and no parents all alone is going to be very anxious. And these um wildlife rescuers would notice this that they were very you know, not having a good time, and they thought, well, it

needs like we don't have another baby cheetah. We can't do that, but we do have this little puppy, and so they put the little I think it's a Golden retriever public and they became just fast friends. The cheetah like calmed down and the dog, you know, the these the dog was very happy to like get licks and cuddles from this cheetah, and they just grew up to

be these great friends. In like this has been used by zoos and rescues to keep cheetahs who have been orphaned or are alone happy and less stressed and give them just this like companion and you know, like it's basically like this dog is a therapy dog for the cheetah, and the dog is more than happy to get love and attention from the What's cool is seeing it when they're like little babies and they're like both little fuzzballs, and it seems like, you know, like dogs with cats,

dogs um dogs seem more um like protect like more kind of protective than cats. Like cats don't come out like as as able, you know what I mean. Like it just seems like dogs have their their stuff together when they're puppies. But then the puppies are a little more like on the ball, yeah, than kittens. But then when they grow up, this cheetah is like so much bigger and more intimidating looking than the dog, but they have each other's back because they love each other, and

the dog has no ego about it. Well, the cheetah probably still looks up to the dog, like knowing cheetah personalities, like even though the cheetah is like bigger than the doge was like or where do we go big brother or big sisters that uh yeah, And apparently like these cheetahs form these really strong bonds with these dogs such that like you can't you can't just like put any

dog in with the cheetah. You can introduce, like an old dog to a young cheetah, like the dog is often willing to make friends with, like a young cheetah, but an old cheetah, like, you can't tossing a dog that's the cheetah doesn't like would be no, no, no, they'll be scared of they'll be scared of the dog. Yeah, they'll be they'll be fearful. So afraid of a dog.

I don't understand. Cheetahs are so Cheetahs live these very harsh lives, and they're very skittish and they have to compete with lions and hyenas and a lot, like their cubs are often killed by hyenas. He's a um which are not actually dogs, but like these um you know, dog like yeah, dog like, and so they you know, when they see another animal that is potentially a predator that which you know, yeah, a Golden retriever or whatever, right like like, well, if I'm a predator, then just

called Paris walls, not pride. But yeah, I mean it's not that I'm not saying like a cheetah couldn't harm a dog may be able to, but cheetahs are easily intimidated. They are they're very fearful animals, even though they are predators. They will go after after prey animals. They don't cotitions exactly there. But so that's lovely. They need emotional support dogs.

That's sweet that they you know, they have their bonds means something basically like all these dog jobs show like tapping into the best part of a dog's nature, like

their sweetness, their intelligence, and companionship. They're like gentleness are not only incredibly useful for people and like their animals, but it's also something that the dogs enjoy doing, like they you know, being friends with a child at a hospital, or being friends with a colony of little penguins and getting love and and getting positive attention for being loving,

like these are all wonderful things. So like there are ways that dogs can you know, have this role to play in society that's so positive and so incredible, and it's just I don't know, I think that is that should be cherished and any time like a dog is used for violence and a dog is you know, it's like you know you are you are a weapon. That's just it's so wrong. Yeah, well I agree. Um No, I definitely do into heaven. Get those dogs into heaven. Um.

I really love dogs, I think. Um, I am an atheist, so I don't believe in souls, but I feel like my dog was part of mine. Um So, I just feel like they have so much to offer. They're just

these pure little creatures. Um, and I do. I just want to refocus on the victims of the violence, you know, like I beyond the animals, Like just we we are more aware than ever of how awful the system is and how we want to remove these pieces of architecture that have um systematically oppressed people first and tortured and killed people for so long. Um. This is uh, this is another like a huge risk factor. Um. That's that's hurting minorities, black people especially. Um. So yeah, thank you

so much, thank you joining me today. Um and thank you to Joel as well. UM. So yeah, do you have anything to plug? Yes, So, a couple of things. I am working on volunteer engineering a low cost ventilator for developing countries. Um. It's open source, which is incredible. And we are respiro works, so r E s p I r A works everywhere. Um, we're like Respira dot works is our our website and you can do slash donate if you'd like to donate because we are a

nonprofit and it's just a bunch of volunteers. Were like applying for grants and stuff. But that's going towards the ventilator itself and getting it out there. UM. I also have started a mailing list and it's got uh. I sent it out twice a week. It's got action items events like today's the or this is Monday. I don't know when this is going out, but there's like a

budget city council meeting stuff like that. UM. Things to people to call to demand justice, petitions to sign, go fund me, these places to donate, black businesses to support black abolitionists, Instagrams to follow. Um. You know, like we have a book club, we have a movie club. Um, just to educate ourselves to unlearn the terrible, terrible teaching of history that we learned. UM. And so yeah, so d m me or email me. I'm Paula V. Ganlin. P A l l A v I g u n

A l a n. That's Paula Vignal in everywhere. That's my Instagram, my Twitter, my Facebook, my TikTok. I'm on there. That's I don't know how to make that activist. I'm figuring that out, but but yeah, you can d M me or email me Polo viganol in Comedy at gmail dot com to get on this mailing list or the the The link to the drive is in my bios. So yeah, and I think we'll also probably put that in the footnotes too. Yeah. Yeah, And you can find

us on Twitter at Creature feat Pod. That's f e a T, not f e e T. That's something very different. On Instagram creature feature pod. Um. I am Katie Golden on Twitter, and you know, I just my Katie thoughts on there. Um And as always, I am also pro bird writes where I you know, I make the case that birds should be in charge of stuff. And I'm certainly a human being and not a bunch of birds in a lady suit. That would be that'd be weird.

I think you, I think you lost a feather. That's that's that's not that's that's from a pillow, that's from a pillows nothing. Thank you to the Space Classics for their super awesome song ex Alumina. Creature features a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, diheart Radio website, or hey, guess what wherever you're listening

to it on right now? You know, like clearly you've got something that you're listening to some platform you can use that too, or anything, just anywhere, you know. Thank you guys so much for listening, and I will see you next Wednesday