Welcome to Creature, future production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology, and today on this show, the robots are taking over. Robots are coming for these animals, from robotic dinosaurs to terrifying robotic beads. Discover this and more as we answer the age old question, can you really just turn sheep robots these days? Is that what we're doing? Are we turning birds to robots? Are you a robot? Are you
a robot? Right now? Joining me today to discuss the singularity is friend of the show, My Poisonal Friend, director, writer, podcast host for Small Beans and the One Upmanship podcast, Adam Ganzer.
Welcome, Oh love love being here, always a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me back. All of your questions are true? Those are the questions.
Yeah, a lot of questions we need to ask. Are you a robot?
It's unconfirmed. Every time I check the box, though, I feel better about.
Can you do the capture? Are you good?
You can do? You can do a capture?
Okay, well that's good. If you come upon a tortoise that's on its back, what do you.
Do eat it right, that's the right.
Yeah, sounds human to me.
Check that box for human.
Check for humans. So yeah, we're talking about actual robots. Like it's not a metaphor just these are robots that people have built to research animals or to do weird things to animals. That sounded more menacing than it actually is, But we'll see anyways, or doesn't I am I feel like I don't know with all this like AI and stuff. Yeah, like this this new AI sort of thing just dropped today where it's like AI videos, It's like it's both
interesting and menacing. I don't know, Like I feel like you would have a unique perspective on this because you are a filmmaker as well, Like you're a director and you understand sort of the artistry that goes into shooting video and making film and so to have just a robot come in and be like bab boop, here's your movie seems I don't know, it seems like it's it's well, what do you think, Adam.
Like full of Despair is the you're looking for? Deeply dark and disturbing.
No, So, like I guess on some.
Level, ultimately it's good for filmmakers, especially people who are not entrenched in the way things have been, right, Like, the younger you are at filmmaking this, the better this will be for you. You because ultimately, AI is still just a tool, you know what I mean? Like like AI is such a misnomer for what this is. It's just an extremely sophisticated tool that can do almost all the legwork of creating an image for you. You still have to shape it to make it mean something, you know.
I mean, filmmaking is still the conveyance of human emotion and meaning. AI can't do that. They can create images that are super well resourced and you know, rendered, but not meaningful unless you made it meaningful with the parameters. That's the difference that I don't see AI jumping over that chasm. That's a you know, yeah, I don't believe that that is that they are conscious or it will become conscious. I do not believe in that.
Yeah, I mean, robots would have to learn how to love first, and they have not yet.
Good luck. I barely know.
No, I agree. I think that with any new technology there's this initial like I guess because it's so novel and exciting, people use it in sort of cheesy ways. And then I think like later the artists like learn how to use it in a way that is actually art, right, like having an AI like poop out an image for your news station that doesn't really mean it, Like that's not art, that's vile. Well, virule can be art. But you know what I'm saying, Like, it's.
The same misunderstanding.
It's the idea that the image is what makes it art, and right, we've already done enough art to know that isn't true. It's you know, like it's the same reason why I think AI is such a misnomer for what this is. It's the reduction of consciousness to being able to do all these complex processes.
That's all that it is.
It's an automation of process rather than like intelligence. I think that people when they think about art, right, like, there's sort of this idea that being really good at doing high fidelity stuff like making a painting that copies reality, do it like or in film, like having film that looks real, right, like like real life or sound design.
And there's also like kind of hyper like like realism that becomes trophy where it's like we got to make the film really dark so it looks realistic, right, and the coloring, the tone and the shading and the lighting has to look real.
And gritty, realistic.
Is I'm putting air quotes up for that because that's you know, there's no that's no such thing.
But you need a sound. We need a sound for air quotes.
Air quotes, Yeah, like an air dog. It's funny that you say that, because like everything you're saying is exactly what most of art in the twentieth century is rebelling against, right.
Exactly, like the like the postmodern yes.
Well, and also you know the modernist stuff like Blo Picasso's work, yes, or Marcel Duchamp's work, right, yeah, or even Impressionists like Claude Monett. Those are guys who were rejecting the idea that that hyper fidelity to reality is the most artistic thing, right, you.
Know, there's nothing wrong with it, Like like if you do a hyper if you're a really good painter and you can do a hyper realistic painting, that's a that is a skill. That's an amazing talent, and I'm jealous of it, which is why I'm talking it down. No, yeah, I mean I think no, I think it's amazing and I but I think that like when you it is not just being able to recreate something realistically. While it
takes a tremendous amount of skill. I think that if you're if you don't necessarily have like the technical skill to like recreate say like a perfect human hand, you may still have the creativity to make art, right Like you don't having a high fidelity thing doesn't isn't necessary for it to be art like, and you can learn you can learn technical skills, but you can also learn creativity. Like I don't think creativity is just something you're born with.
Some people you can develop, yes, yeah, you can train it. You can learn creativity, yes, and so yeah, like these these tools, right, like so called AI art, It's like, well, so it's a tool so called it can be used I think creatively. I haven't seen it yet. I'm gonna be honest with you. I've not seen someone in the hit. I have not seen AI in the hands of someone truly using it to its full artistic potential.
But I would like to.
I so, like I'm we're looking for Marcel to shomp here, right, Like that's that's that's the kind of figure we're looking for. It's a person who has a brain for what it is about AI that can be done artistically and haven't we haven't seen. I wish I was that guy, because man, I'd be changing the universe right now.
But I'm not. I'm not yet that guy.
Uh yeah, I mean I Ultimately a lot of the conversation around AI still kind of feels like it's based on movie tropes and the human need to control everything that you know, and AI is clearly not a thing that's gonna be controlled in the same way that a calculator will.
You know, it's it's.
Gonna run, it's gonna be, it's gonna have consequences that are not you can't stop them.
Right.
We're not gonna be able to fence in all the things AI will do.
And that's scary, but it not scary like the things we're actually afraid of, like it'll take over and replace your.
Gap, right, not not that it's it's kind of a Jurassic Park situation where once you make a dinosaur, you can't uncork that dinosaur bottle.
It's Pandora's Park's.
Park exactly, Pandora's Box of velociraptors. Speaking of dinosaurs and oh AI we're talking about a robot dinosaur. This actually has nothing to do with ai ai is so missus I was wondering, this actually has to do with a just a mechanical robot dinosaur used to try to answer
one of the questions of bird evolution. So one of the questions behind bird evolution is like we know that dinosaurs developed feathers and wings potentially before they were used for flight, and so why why did they have wings? Why did they have feathers? Like what purposes do they have? We have a lot of theories, these aren't mutually exclusive theories.
So like one of them is that hollow bone structure, right, like with with the early birds mate have had nothing to do with flight, but with thermal regulation or being able to like run and thermal regulate, like feathers could have been for a warmth. There could have been a lot of different things for sexual signaling.
And so the first thing that's the first thing to.
Look hot, Yeah, exactly exactly. You might think humans are uniquely but a lot of animals just have a feature just to look hot, that's right. Another theory is that wings could have been used to flush out prey, so used in hunting so like you, basically there's a bunch of insects or small prey adding items hiding in a bush. How do you get them out of that bush? Well, if you flap your wings right and it scares them and they start and they run out of the bush.
Then you grab them as they're fleeing. And yeah, and we know this is an actual behavior in modern dinosaurs, which are birds. So birds are the modern form of dinosaurs. They're the only like survivors of sort of the dinosaur times, and which you can tell I'm really good with the timeline when I'm calling it the dinosaur times.
The time of the dinosaur.
I don't know my Jurassic for my Cretaceous. But anyways, so the these birds do in fact use this flushing technique. So anything from like the Greater Run Greater road runner in California will do this to flesh out its prey. Uh to the Australian willy wagtail, which just sounds made up. Doesn't sound like a real bird, but.
It is cartoon creature.
Okay, it's like that's like, what's his name, Woody Woodpecker's rival willy wagtail.
I didn't even know that was a thing. Now I have a Saturday. You just gave me a Saturday finding all that.
Seeing it woodpecker you haven't heard of.
I know what he would pecker? Did he really have a rival that the same?
It's just that there is a real It's just that there's a real bird called Willy wagtail, and I'm imagining in the Greater Woody wood Pecker cinematic universe that he has a rival named Willy Wagtail.
God, I want to see that universe. Boy, get it.
We can make it with AI. Can't wait. It'll look great. It will be uncanny at all type in uh uh boody woodpecker fighting williwagtail universe.
Verse universe.
See what it does? Okay? So yeah, and so yes, we know this behavior exists in modern birds. So could it have existed in dinosaurs? Well, a team of engineers and biological scientists were like, this is a great excuse to build a robot, and so in South Korea they did just that.
Sure, why why do we need a robot for that? Still?
Because number one, it's why not number one cool? Why are you even asking that we're building a dinosaur robot? But number two, to see if they can recreate the anatomy of a known dinosaur that was a bird like dinosaur that had wings that didn't fly. And if they could use that robot dinosaur to scare grassofs first.
Then they know they were right.
Then they'd know that they're right. It like, is this robot scared to grasshoppers?
Check?
So, by the way I'm looking at it, it's scary to everything. I don't know what they're proven with this.
It's insane. It looks like a harbinger of doom. Like I think it's cute, Okay.
Got a bit of a gothic waly kind of.
It's like dark. It's got like wheels for legs.
Yeah, Adam, do you just have buckets of money to create realistic dinosaur bird legs?
You're right, a robotic Who am I to question the fidelity of this task. I still don't even think you've given one legit reason to do it.
But that's fine, no, So.
So listen, the researchers created robot Jesus. This is a hard one robot to rix robopterrickx, a robot meant to mimic the anatomy of CODYP. Direx, which is a dinosaur that roamed Asia over one hundred and twenty five million years ago during the Early Cretaceous period. It was a flightless, bipedal bird like dinosaur with feathers wings, and a fan like tail. It was about the size of a turkey. So there's this thing now that is a robot version
of this, but with wheels. Now, the original CODYP. Direx did not have wheels. It had like ah, so little problem, no little note might change the results of the experiment peer review note why wheels. So they experimented with different wing colorations, sort of wing movements, and if you watch a video of it, it looks pretty cool, man, Like the wing movements.
I don't know, sure, yes, yeah, yeah, I'd buy it.
They're also very funny, like no robot has ever yet escaped being funny from my opinion, like from my vantage point, honestly, like like, you know, I'm talking about real robots, not the ones that are in movies that are you know, they don't have to really be robots.
This one has to really be a robot and it's still funny. Look at it.
It's I mean, you can't because it's a podcast, But man, listen to if you're listening to the podcast, just look at it.
It'll be in the show notes. I will link to the video in the show notes. I do look at it. There is a New York Times article about it. If you look for robotic wing dinosaur New York Times, you'll find it. But I'll also link to it in the show notes. It's really funny, and so they did indeed find that when the robopter ricks. Ugh, that's a word that doesn't come out of the mouth.
Good fix it, scientists, come on, man.
It.
Yes, when the grasshoppers are faced with this robot dinosaur and it flaps its wings, the grasshoppers get scared and hop slash fly away. So interestingly, this was only tested on like thirty grasshoppers. I don't know why they didn't just make it like one hundred grasshoppers. Uh, increase those that significance s fellas, But like I guess it's hard to find grasshoppers to sign up for an experiment where
they get scared by a robot dinosaur. I don't know, do it on more grasshoppers, is what I'm saying.
Yeah, literally, everything about this sounds like a scam. Like, nothing about this it sounds like any real science was done. It really sounds like a dude wanted grant money to build an awesome dinosaur.
I get some bolt. None of this is real.
I think that wanting to build a cool robot is a huge part of this. And yeah, like I think they knew that if they're, like, we built a robot dinosaur, they would get a ton of press attention, they would get the funding. Sure, this is this is like, this is a honey pot for UH funders, like like looking at like T cell receptors in my boring ooh robot dinosaur.
Hello, Yeah, it's definitely a sexy idea for a project.
Like and I'm and I'm not impugning you at all.
It just doesn't sound very scientific to me, man, it really doesn't.
Well, look, I don't bring up these studies to say, look, how good and perfect to this study is. I bring it up because it is really funny. So I think that skepticism. I think that skepticism is healthy and all. All I mean honestly, like, and we'll talk more about these like because I'm I'm not like I have not fully embraced the UH research robustness of this robot dinosaur. I think it's very cool. Like I think it's awesome that they don't just think it's a door. It's really cool.
I do not believe this is conclusive proof that birdling dinosaurs use this flapping technique to flush out prey. I think it shows that it's possible.
Sure, maybe they did.
I feel like the existence of birds doing it proves it's possible, you know what I mean? Like, that's the thing is like we already have enough to I don't think we've advanced any information from this robot doing it.
It's you know, a.
Little superfluous, doesn't it.
Yes, if a bird does it and they and they use wings and their theory is what if it was just like birds do it? Then you build a thing that does it kind of and tests it on like six grasshoppers.
What have you proved?
Man? It is thirty grasshoppers to thirty fair give me. We will discuss another. We will discuss another one where it's like six bees that.
This is.
I am in love with this topic. Wow, you've really done it today. Okay, this is really so.
This is But like the reason I bring up like sample size and stuff is like whenever you read a cool article about a study, they usually do link you to the actual research paper and there's jump on down to the method section because that is always wild. Like, Okay, I I you don't necessarily have to like have be
able to understand statistical methodology or anything too complex. But sometimes when you go to the method section in a research paper, you will find some interesting buried bodies in there that are funny or sometimes like the research can be really good and it's just really funny. Like I once read a paper where like the in the this was not mentioned right like in like the article about it,
but it was like they did. They just created like a bunch of different images of like human and primate butts, and that's just it's wonderful.
It's wonderful what people that's hel for all we can all use.
And like, So basically what I'm saying is, I would I think that there's interesting applications of this robot. I certainly prefer this to like using robots for like police dogs, you know what I mean. Oh yeah, I think this is much cooler, much more pro social than using robots to like spy on us.
I would love to see all the packages that are being delivered by robots done by this thing. You know its packages here, you know like here it is.
That's pretty great.
I have delivered your la CROs.
That it bows to you, It takes off, that's all you want.
Away away, rolls away on it slowly. Yeah, so you know phase one of the conductorists. I would say, it's not there yet.
It's not there yet. Question.
But I think with more funding we could make a real uh interesting thing here. Let's keep let's keep spending money on it.
This is not a finished product. Who knows the limitations for this? The sky's the limit? How far can these wings store?
We all agree.
I just want to add, based on a light dusting of googling, I do think this robot operated on AI.
Oh really interesting?
Yes, it's I mean I can't quite get to the article, but like the headline here, robot robotix, an AI based system is demonstrating. Yeah, me too, but maybe that's maybe that justifies what this robots doing, right.
I think it may be operate like it might not so much be AI but on wing physics modeling that is used to me, which is an AI. But I mean what is AI?
You know we could spend another ten on that easy. We can spend all day on it, uh and have contributed literally nothing to the conversation.
Right now. I think I think it. I think I think what it used was like models of bird wing flapping physics slash behavior to guide the bird wing motion. Sure, but sure, I don't I don't know if I would call that AI.
I don't know.
I mean, it's definitely not some dude with a crank on the backs doing this crank in the crank of the winds flap.
Yeah, I get it. It's got to be a little bit.
Uh.
Yeah, I think that like using sort of real The thing that's exciting about this to me is that recreating an extinct animal and then testing some of its behaviors in real world situations, Uh, is really cool. That's cool. I think that is that could teach us things about
extinct animals. Uh. And it could also it's also like even animals that are not extinct, but figuring out out how to create sort of like robot versions of animals to do sort of like certain tests on can could be really interesting.
Now we're going to talk talk about some.
More of those. First, we're going to take a quick break while I ask Adam some questions that only the real human atom would know.
M don't get Yeah, look out, turtles, I'm hungry.
So, Adam, what sounds more refreshing to you? A glass of water or a glass of motor oil for robots?
I know the correct answer. Yeah, it's water, right.
Yes, human human.
Checkbot check them.
So we're going to talk about robot bees. This study is so funny, and look, I I love it and I think it's very When I make critiques of this study, I'm not saying the researchers are bad or that we should dismiss it, but I even they acknowledge that this is like kind of a prototype, and so keep that in keep that in mind.
I think all robot animals can be called a prototype at this point.
Have you seen the Have you seen that that Spy in the Wild Nature show? Like it's okay, so it's
it's incredible. We're not really talking about that kind of robot today, but like it's where they created sort of realistic ish looking robots to put amongst the animals, and then they put a camera in the robot to like capture the animals and the here's what's funny about that show is that the premise is that, look, we can get a camera inside these robots and observe behavior that we wouldn't be able to observe otherwise because you're infiltrating, right,
Like you have a robot Langer or a robot wolf or whatever, or a robot fish, and so we can observe these behaviors that otherwise the animals would be too shy to do in front of the human And I swear like eighty percent to ninety percent of the footage in that show is by another camera, so like a camera taking video of like the robot camera and the animals interacting with the robots. It's like, is it really about the camera? I mean there's there's some footage from
like the robot. Yes, they do include that. It's usually not as good as the human.
Pot well, right, because you don't want to be a pack animal in the pack.
That's not fun to watch.
You want to see what the pack does from the outside, which, yes, that's just a pure.
Filmmaking thing, right, Yeah.
I gotta say, just I want to I think I want to plant my flag on this point, like just it's a philosophical thing. I am in favor of scientists doing awesome things.
For its own sake. Yeah.
I mean, like like I'm not sure how much scientific value there was on landing on the Moon, but hey man, we did it, you know.
I mean that's cool, right, I think, yes, I think there's a certain amount of utility in cool science things. Yeah, inspire people, And it's almost it's like art in a way, right, where it's like, what's the point of doing art? Like there's no necessarily purely practical thing. It's just enriching. And so sometimes just like why do we need to figure out be communication using a robot? We don't really need to, but it's cool.
Yeah, but look at that, you know.
Yeah, so yeah.
So yeah, we're talking about we're talking about robot bees. There is some research that uses robot bees to infiltrate a hive to learn the art of be dance. Now, Adam, do you know sort of the general just about bee dancing.
Yeah, as I understand it, it is part of their bee mating ritual, Like they go to bee clubs, you know, after they at hard b nine to five jobs and cut loose a little bit?
Am I right about this? No?
No, no, sadly no, I mean you would be right, that kind of guess would be right for like so many animals when you're like, why does this animal dance
but not bees? Bees dance mainly to locate food. So a bee will So most of these are sisters, right, These are bees and a hive, and they're mostly worker bees, and so they're mostly sisters, and so they will wiggle they're abdomen to indicate where a food source is, basically where there are some flowers or nectar that can be found, and the other bees watch them and then they go and they find this food source. So this is like
an established thing. This is not what they're researching, but that bees use the language of dance to communicate where uh there.
Is food, as do I?
Just like you dirate in the direction of the McDonald.
Yes, this way you can't see it, but it was glorious what I did.
Yeah, it's it's the they Basically, these bees are like the sign spinners. I have not seen a spot sign spinner in a hot minute. Is that not a job anymore?
I think they're gone. I mean I think there's no stores mans COVID destroyed stores.
What do I need to Yeah?
Yeah, that's why, Like people are asking demeaning things of their Amazon delivery people like, could you do a cool dance for me? I have to pee in a water bottle. But okay, so I already did one for Jeff this morning, so yes, so uh, essentially yes, bees waggle their bodies in a dance to communicate. So there is of course in in decoding this language of dance. But how do you decode B dance and have a B co conspirator who does just certain types of dances and sort of
a in an experimental setting. Well, you can't just like, you know, kind of convince a bee to do your research. So you need a robot b a highly sophisticated, extremely detailed, cleverly disguised robot. So adam, here it is.
Oh my god, I can't even wait. This is a thrilling moment. This is whatever this turns out to be, where it's taking us is going to be awful.
You know, I sent it to you in the in the chat.
Oh my god, okay.
What yeah, So it's not really you know, it's a prototype. It is a plas stick like kind of looks like a plastic pill with like a piece of square plastic on it, which is like the wing attachment and then a huge metal rod which is like a mechanical shaft that is used to like control the bee. It's not really fooling me.
No, it doesn't do it for me. I'm surprised any be's taking it seriously.
Yeah, it's just like, I mean, it's the equivalent of like, I don't know, if you're a robot, sort of painting your metal chassis like sort of a beige color and then shuffling in to a supermarket and being like, hello, I am one of you, and you're just angular.
And do you have cupons being.
Covered in wires? I have heard that you trade coupons for sustenance. Yeah, so this b maybe not the most convincing thing, but yes, this is uh the handiwork of robot us his named Tim Tim Langraf at the University of Berlin and his team. Before you mock, remember bees are dumb. Maybe they'll just sure enough be fooled by
this chull little fake bee. So yeah, what they did was they they did actually kind of an interesting like I mean, some would potentially call this AI incorrectly in my opinion, it is where they use like a a model uh to uh basically like modeled on actual B dances and then programmed the robot B with these like B dances that were done with sort of a you know, like a sort of this this more or less complex like learning model, and then it does a dance and
then sometimes the bees pay attention to it, sometimes they don't. About six bees were the ones that ended up paying attention to this bee dancing.
And they were drunk.
There's this guy.
Oh it's cool.
I think I think she's one of us girls. And so they then would like if a bee was seen to be like paying attention to the robot B and like tracking the bee dance. When it flew off, it was snatched and a radio antenna was attached.
To Oh my god, just a.
Normal day for this bee, Like, right, is that a robot? I'm getting out of here. It's like, oh my god, get a big antenna on my head now normal times.
This is the worst roof ever for a bee, you know what I mean. They get into this dance, they're like, okay, cool, let's go back.
To your place. Nope.
Yeah, it's like, oh, you know, take any show where like people are replaced by robots. But it's just like a huge antenna on your head. It's like, uh, something different about you, Susan, I don't know what you are talking about.
No, I remain equivalent to before.
No, but these bees, these bees aren't turned into robots. They're just uh, they're just tracked with these radio antenna. And then essentially the idea is that this robot bee is trying to communicate to them a new source of food.
So if they go and they find this new location where they previously would not expect to find food, but then you know they go after watching this bee dance, it would be proof of concept that you can teach bees where to find food with a robotic bee dance, and you know they seem to find it and maybe six bees. So yeah, here's here's the issue.
Here's the issue.
Bro.
If I've seen nothing but issues with this this So you have to look at this thing a long time to think it looks like a bee, Like, it takes you a really long time to figure out is it a bee?
How is it a bee?
You imagine if your brain was the size of a bee's brain though, right, Like, I guess how that would feel.
I guess I don't know.
So yeah, no, I mean. One of the issues, of course is the very small sample size of six bees. Of course, also it doesn't seem like they were able to compare that behavior to a really large like control group, like they did try to have a control group, but that also seemed like to be only a couple of bees or a handful of bees, which I feel like robust research demands more than a handful of bees. You need more bees.
Yeah, more bees.
As someone who's not a robotic system or sort of a professional in any sense in any field, more bees, I would say it's at least eighty percent more bees. You're gonna need more bees. Repeat the study, get more funding for your cool robot. B make it better because and more guys like more more of a bee.
Make it more of a thank you.
It's it's not giving be to me now. They they they admit to this in their in their paper that like, this is a prototype. We think that with higher fidelity, more bees might pay attention. So you think fun, Yeah, fund this research, get the bee, the robot, be more realistic. I want more passion, more movement or energy from this bee, and do it on more bees, Like I'm gonna need this. I'm gonna need at least a control group of like at least fifty bees, test group of at least fifty bees.
Yeah, yeah, those are minimumsbes, that's that minimum.
That's minimum in my writer to care about this, right, This bee feels like that Steve Bishemi meme where he's like dressed like a child at a high school.
He's like, hello, fellow kids, that's a fellow bees. That's what this is. Yes, uh yeah, you ever watched air Bud.
I know the concept of it that it's a dog who joins a basketball team because the rules do not apply sipically say, the rules don't specifically say you can't be a dog in basketball.
That's right, they don't. That's correct, they don't.
So what I my understanding about air Bud is Airbud is what you might call conglomeration of fifteen different dogs or like twenty different dogs, all of whom are good at one thing. Right, This dog's good at sitting. This dog is good at high fiving.
In terms of the film you're talking about the film, the movie is not about a hyper dog.
That's not many dogs.
Although that would be.
Cool, that would be better than what they did.
I get notice of a Clifford where it's like one big dog biological dogs.
Let's take them all together, twenty.
Dogs that like stand on each other and sort of form a giant dog, and then they can split off and do their own dogs like.
A school of dogs. Yeah, totally cool of dogs.
Yeah, a school of golden true came out of just like lying down and having a stampede of dogs run over you. That would be cute.
And anyway, point being.
I think that this bee experiment is kind of the air Bud of experiments in that they just kind of need to make a bee that does more stuff like the one the one be does isn't very good.
You know, like.
Maybe it would work better if they had a bee that also was good at you know, making honey or whatever.
Maybe they would trust the bee more if it did more stuff. That's the point.
Tell's good bee joke, right.
It's just you know, a social bee, you know, like just better at stuff.
Guess what I'm cooking for dinner tonight, girls, paul In.
With one appendage.
Yeah yeah, maybe I think honestly, like I would be satisfied with just more bees being studied, Like six six bees doesn't do it for me with a small control group, because like, could the bees not have found the food by chance? Right, like or by some other means of finding this food. I think that it's a very like I think it's a good start, Like I think it's a really strong, like first proof of concept. And what I'm saying is this is a great proof of concept.
Give me more. I want more of this robot bee. I want to see it, you know, go like I want DARPA to fund this, like make up some war purpose, say like this bee can be used to kill people.
Of that's the thing about robot bees, man, you just you just pointed out that's where it inevitably ends, is that you know, use them for.
Attacks, right, But then you know this is okay, So we all know that the military will fun thing that sure, like and DARPA and stuff. The coolest robots are the ones where it's like, could this be used to hurt people? And so what what I would like to see is like the cool studies that are like harmless about like, hey, we want to teach a robot be how to dance and communicate to other bees, because that is really cool. But just tell DARPA that this bee will be deadly.
Don't actually make it deadly, just be like we're working on it. First, we've got to understand, we've got to basically, we will teach these bees war and through the robot bees. The robot bee will teach them war through dance. You know that won't happen. But dark.
No, exactly tell them just make.
Stuff up about bees like be like bees could be trained to be military soldiers. They won't check. They're not checking that stuff.
The only thing they know is that you can get six bees to do literally anything.
So that's not a plan. It's nothing.
What I mean, well, it's not nothing. It's six bees.
Though, Look, I can get six bees hold any opinion on like eight chan man, you know what I mean, Like I could, I could get six bees to do literally anything. You know, Like that's not a conclusive amount of bees for anything.
You know what I mean.
It's not a bee core. It's more like a bee Supreme.
Court exactly, thank you, exactly.
How many bees. We should increase the number of bees on the Supreme Court to.
At least thirteen thirteen Baker's doesn't.
The bees a Baker's doesn't plus.
One to break the tie break the b tie.
More bees, more bees, please? All right? So armed share armchair robotic b experts here way.
They could have asked. They could have asked us.
They could have asked, they could have asked.
We wouldn't have had to We wouldn't have had to do this if they'd asked, you know.
So I if it were me funding this study, I would say I'd fund it. Just make it more bees.
I love how many times you've said it now, it's exactly.
That was the last one, exactly the amount of times that was needed for them to get it right.
I don't know how many times I have to say it. I won't say it again. So we're gonna we're going to take a quick break. When we get back, we're going to talk about the frightening dystopia of using robots to do sheep dogs work, and then also play a little.
Game, right of games.
Adam, robots are coming for the jobs of hard working American dogs.
Yeah, I mean you had to know it. Dog should have seen that coming.
Doug should have seen that coming, just like Airbud, like.
One of the dogs from Air Budget, not all of them, just one of them did.
Just like how they're trying to replace air Bud with AI. One of the one of the AI. A lot of the AI videos actually that I saw were like animals doing stuff. There's one with like Golden Retriever puppies playing in the snow, and like part of me is like
this is cute. And then there's like there are things that are still kind of off in the videos, like maybe a puppy's leg will appear out of nowhere, or like a puppy will sort of like just ooze out of another puppy, and so but it's very it's like subtle enough that my brain isn't fast enough to catch up to like what exactly is the problem. It's just like I feel icky. These puppies are making me feel bad inside. Usually they make me feel warm, but they're
making me feel kind of bad. YEA the key inside And then you you play the footage, right, you replay the footage and you realize, like one of the puppies has like a sixth leg that just kind of poinked out of its chest.
It was a problem. I'm worried.
I'm worried that one day AI is going to get good at this so that that doesn't happen. Anymore, and then you'll like the cumulative effect of it will be that we just stop enjoining dog videos like that right where it's like because I kind of feel like part of the appeal of a dog video is seeing knowing a dog did that, you know what I mean, if AI did it, it's like, well, nor do I care about that, you know.
Right, Like if it's like if my dog farts, that's hilarious and cute. If it's like a robot going like I am about to fart, fart, nice, it's not fun. Really,
it's not cute, not really, it's just disgusting. Yeah, No, I mean I think also there's a possibility that it goes into the snack food sort of root, which is hyper like hyper optimizing AI puppies to be as like lab tested cute as possible, to sort of strike the cuteness thing sort of like you know, like how like snack food like cheetahs and stuff, they like test them over and over until they reach like a maximum flavor point and like melt in your mouth, so like people
just eat it and they don't even know they're eating it.
It just happens.
I think there might be the same thing with AI generated puppies where they are optimized to be as cute as possible, and then when you look at a real puppy, you're like trash.
You're a trash dog.
That's trash. Give me the AI puppies.
I hope that's not true. I hope.
I think I'm probably wrong, but I kind of hope that the effect of that will be sort of like that movie Alita Battle Angel.
You've seen that movie where like they tried.
That's the one with the like brat Styll.
Robot.
I kind of feel like, ultimately we end up sort of making weird monster things when we try to maximize cuteness, you know what I mean. Like I might be wrong about that, but I kind I kind of feel like I'm not though, you know what I mean, Like where it is actually off putting when you get closer to a consensus.
I don't know.
There are specific things in human psychology that give me hope, like the fact that there's this phenomenon where people when they watch like sports, they don't really like to watch like they like to watch it live when other people are watching it literally has no like and even before like mass social media, this was the case it's like it does not have an effect, right, like if you watch it live versus you tape it and then watch it later, Like there's actually an effect in terms of
how you feel about it, even though it's the same thing. It's the same experience, but people really like feeling like they're watching it with the rest of the world, like there is a there there is a feeling of like I want the puppy that I'm looking into its deep brown eyes to actually be a feeling, thinking creature. I
think this is why, like robotic pets never took off. Remember, like there was a whole thing about like robot puppies and robotic pets, and they never really that did not become a big thing because I think people one of the things people like about pets is that this is a sentient creature. It's not just a soft, mindless like lump of warm fur that I can pet. It actually has a brain and when I pet it, it is happy.
When I give it a treat, it is happy. You can't get the same thing out of a robot or an AI, and so I think people really need that. So I don't think real puppies are going anywhere.
We're not getting rid of puppies yet. Puppies are keeping their job and we're keeping them safe. That's a safe stance for the podcast.
Yeah it's a hot take, but we might get rid of herding dogs. Well probably not, but well no, I don't think so. I'm I'm kind of joking. I think that a lot of dog breeds just we will keep because I think that we like in terms of like sheep herding, even though that might not be used in a commercial since anymore. I think that there will still be like basically done as like a hobby.
Or keep the traditional babe babe.
Like like the movie Babe exactly like there will there will always be a babe. Yes, there will always be a pig proven.
His worth, so uh, thank god for that.
But yeah, researchers are looking into like using robots to herd animals sometimes in farm settings, like those horrifying robot dogs being used to herd animals, which is you know, man, what a metaphor? Am I right?
I mean it's funny because I'm thinking about this right now as you're saying it and realize it. I mean, dogs are essentially we've essentially trained dogs to do this anyway, so it's like hard for me to get super up in arms for.
The dog's job. But I don't know, I don't know, you know what I mean, because like I don't.
I mean, this may be my ignorance, but dogs weren't hurting sheep before human beings trained them to do it?
Were they.
No it? Actually they had to be trained out of actually like attacking this right of course, it is a predatory behavior that's been pulled back, so they don't actually attack the sheep, but they go after them, and then
they pay attention to the human. I mean, I think that like in terms of dog and human happiness, I think working together with dogs can be deeply enriching and something like hurting as long as it's in a farm that is well run and stuff, I think that can be you know, enjoyable for both the human and dog.
But you know, there are certain situations where it might be dangerous for a dog, and I would not have a problem with a robot being sent in and like I said, situation where like like especially with say like maybe like a bomb stiff.
Dog or something that.
Instead of dog, right exactly, yeah, exactly, And so like I don't, I don't like the use of dogs in sort of combat situation. So, uh, but like, I also don't like combat situations in hopes like keeping puppies. I don't want to go to war with Can we that's just my.
Can we just stop it?
I mean, y'all aren't ready to hear this, but can we stop?
Uh?
So, Yeah, there's also something called bioherding, where you're like actually hurting animals that are wild animals not in farms to like maintain sort of like either the safety of the animals or like safely kind of try to separate human activity and animal activity. Like say, like you maybe use a drone to herd birds away from like a wind farm or airports, right to prevent them from getting sucked into a wind turbine or colliding with a plane.
So like having a drone doing this might actually be like useful because hey, you know, you're telling the bird, like get away from this airport. This airplane wants to eat.
True. Sure, I see that that makes sense.
There's also been research where they've used drones essentially to herd birds, but it was a robotic falcon, so a sounds awesome. An aerial a drone shaped like a falcon, which I know there's I know there's this internet joke of like the bird birds aren't real, kind of like where you know it's the whole thing, but like, you know, we know birds are real, but this one specifically is not. It's it's a robotic falcon. And research is at the
University of Grown in Gin. I don't that's not a word I can say good and the University of London found that they could use this robot falcon to trigger a fear response in pigeons.
Of course stop, I.
Mean like, obviously you're going to scare these but this is actually.
Another thing that didn't need to be proved, did We didn't need to.
Prove that to be fair. To be fair, they're looking at something deeper than this. This is actually I like this. This is I think my in terms of methodology, I think uh one of my uh, I like this study. I think it's other than scaring being mean to pigeons, which I don't like, Uh, it is it seems pretty interesting.
So they found that when they would scare the pigeons with the falcon, what they were specifically looking at was flocking behavior in these pigeons to see if they would like there's this idea of selfish flocking where if like you're the safest position in a flock would be like in the middle, right, like protected, protect yourself, And so the idea would be like maybe there's some like flocks of birds where there are permutations of these birds because
individuals keep trying to get in the middle, right, and so it's like a sort of this effect of like everyone's trying to shove their way into the middle. But they looked at this in these homing pigeons and they did not find this. So they found that the pigeons of flocking behavior was you know, they were not trying
to vuy for this center position that they were. They did in fact run away from or not run away, fly away from the falcon bot, but that they were not trying to like shove their way into the middle. They seemed to be just kind of like following each other and going getting trying to get away from the falcons. So, you know, the homing pigeons are nice. I guess it's
not really about being nice. It's about like probably this system of not trying to scoot your way into the middle actually create some more stable safe for a situation for all the pigeons.
But still I kind of wish they'd do that on airlines so we didn't have all this you know, economy plus and first class and like all this class warfare. Just get a robot falcon the scare us into our seats, you know, the way better.
Planes are not so the the like seating on planes are usually done to try to incentivize people to try more expensive tickets, because if you want the most efficient seating, you would see like from back to front. Obviously you don't see it from from the book back, but you know, they got it. They gotta like have you be sort of like walk of shame past everyone in their cozy business class as you you know, it's like seats getting small, it is.
I could do an hour on that, Katie. I just went on four flights last week and it was a healthscape. It was a healthscape anyway. But we're here to talk about robot falcons, as I.
Understand it to airlines, am I, I adam, maybe you maybe have you seen this? Have you heard about this? I find flying on an arrowplane sometimes.
Uncomfortable and mean, yeah a little bit.
Uh yeah, so no, I mean that's it the they scared these birds with the robot falcon and the birds, uh, these homing pigeons were like, hey, we're scared, but we're going to keep her cool and work as a unit with you. I'm sharing with you an image of like these these robots used in these situations, which just seems kind of distoed. It looks like a cyber does kind of thing for these animals.
Well, yeah, this is wild.
These things look insane, like they're completely Orwellian, right, like it is right, Yeah, I mean I know that animals don't rely on site in the same way that we do, or not all of the them do. Yeah, it just seems tough to me to draw the kinds of conclusions about, say, pigeons from these machines, because these machines are like, what would not be scared looking at that thing?
It's not. But the thing about that study, right is, it's not about whether they're.
Scared, how do they respond to It's about.
How do they respond to fears. So whether they think like it's a falcon chasing us, or this is a demon from the depths of pigeon health, right making a terrifying noise. We got to get out of here. No, I think that that's why for that study, Like I
actually think that's succeptable. It's relatively strong study. Yeah, yeah, because it's like it's looking you know at sort of this, uh the behavior of the birds specific and it's kind of like you know, they're comparing it to like non frightened flocking and.
That's fine, and look again I'm not a pigeon scientist. That's not my area of expertise. But I still feel like, what the kind of fear that the pigeons are experiencing or type seems like it might have bearing on how they respond or maybe I'm entirely cold, yes, you know.
No, no, no, that's I think that's a that is a fair critique of the study because like it could be that this is such a novel situation for you that if it was an actual right, like if it's an actual falcon, they might have like a specific response.
But given that this is a completely unknown thing, like maybe their behavior is different because this is like I have never heard or seen this before, and we are just doing something to get away from it because they because like there is it is true that for a lot of animals, like they develop different strategies for predator
of aasion depending on the predators. Like animals will have like specific alarm calls for say like a flying predator or own predator or snake or something, And so it's possible that their evasion strategies differ depending on the predator, and there could be some effect of like, this is
a robot and that is eliciting a specific response. But even if this is like specific to robot fear, it's still interesting that they have this that they don't seem to like be basically the equivalent of shoving someone aside as you try to escape.
That's yeah, yeah, I mean, you know again, I I barb it for me to speak to the mind of pigeons, but.
These things are horrifying. Yeah, these things are horrifying.
Also, I don't know why every robot that walks on the on the land looks like an animal its head's been cut off. That's like a.
Thing because it doesn't need to hell, it doesn't need to know.
But it just enhances the feeling that we that you get as a human of like that thing is is uh is unnatural, you know what I mean, It's like, yeah, I don't.
Know you're I think you're looking at that like darkness at the robot do I mean? I don't. I feel like because they've sometimes pitched it in terms of like these like security security situations and stuff, I think part of the like appeal of it is it's a little bit like one of these things like like shows up at your door and starts blaring at sirens at you. Like I'm I just like immediately fall over out of terror.
It hurts me to where it wants me to go. I'm saying, all right, the door, I'll open it.
Yeah. Like if a human officer like comes right and it's like I need to search your car, I'm like, what you got probable cause? Certain? No, I'm not.
I'm I'm a i'm let's your warrant.
But still I'm more I'm more likely to be like, hey, you know, let's see your warrant. But if one of these robot dogs comes up to me and is like, realink your car, I'm like, okay, I'm done.
Yeah you're not the PI in that noir tale when that dog shows up.
Now you know what took you so long? Rogers, I've been waiting for you.
Yeah you don't you don't. You don't have ahead, and you move and a way that I do not like.
So whatever you need you Yeah, those I mean, I've enjoyed the the advent of robot dancing videos and stuff that have come out in the last few years, but like, well, that's the thing.
They're always menacing because.
The robots are always designed in a way that removes us, like gives you that it puts the uncanny feeling front and center.
I don't know why they insist on doing that, you know.
Because I don't Yeah, I don't know. It's like, I don't know, I've never seen a real life robot that I would describe as not that way, especially like the only time there's been a cute robot, in my opinion, like actually cute, adorable robot.
Is Wall, of course, in the toys.
And that's because that robot.
No just general like toy robots in generally there's lots of cute one.
I guess maybe there's some some cute ones, but the most truly cute one is that one, because that was animated by handshake humans sure to make it cute and expressive, and so every time Wally makes an adorable expression right there, was a human being making sure that that robot looked cute and expressive.
Right, right, So you know it's tough, man.
Uh yeah, you can't really get past the there's a certain point where the robot has to kind of stand on its own as being appealing, and it just really doesn't feel like it works for that for that quality. I don't know how important that quality is if this thing's working behind the scenes, Like, for instance, if this dog, this robot dog that does the sheep hurting doesn't have to be watched by human beings, like this becomes an automated task where human being now can go do something else.
That's that's kind of amazing, you know, because I like I you know, I imagine the sheep aren't going to their sheep therapists or whatever about this thing, right, They're probably fine, it's okay, But if you have to sit there and watch it, nah, man, give me that dog any old day.
Yeah. No, I don't know. I I truly don't know what to think when it comes to these things. I think it's just like any tools, right, like like we're talking about with AI, like, it really entirely depends on the application. I think that things like farming and are kind of clash with animal human civilization and animals. There's a lot of things that are currently wrong with them totally.
So like if robots could help with that, right, Like, if robots somehow could make farming like more humane, I'd be all for it. Like I've heard of these things that are these like automated milkers where it's like cows will get there's just like a robot milker where a cow decides like, hey, my utters are feeling kind of not great. I'm going to go into this automated milker, get milked and then wander off. That's great because then you give the cow more autonomy you know you have.
It makes dairy farming slightly less horrifying. So in that case, yeah, team robot. But if robots are used to like increase like the sort of inhuman conditions of animals, right, people, then.
I'm getting maximum milk right, Like, that's the kind of thing you're worried about.
You know, we have found if we smash the cows with a hammer, it increases milk production by twenty point seven hammer.
It's like, no, no, no, I don't want that.
Insulting the cows makes the milk sweeter and more rich in protein.
Have an insulted insult cow lata, it's excellent.
Because the best milk comes from sad and depressed.
Well in fact industry secret. Uh yeah.
I wonder if at some point, when we're used to the idea that robots, we're going to encounter robots every day, you know what I mean, because we're not there yet, but like I feel like in our lifetime we will be like when we get to that point, are there, is there going to be a movement to make them feel more like accessible?
Absolutely? Absolutely, I think so. I think I think that we see this with sort of like all kind of product design. It's like really optimized to make us want to you know, because like like robots are going to become kind of consumers at some point, and so there's going maybe the robot that like again is like you know, hurting all the robotic cows, and the robotic cows themselves,
like they're all probably gonna look like garbage. But like you know, the robots that are you know, basically there that are visible to humans and doing stuff, We're gonna try to make him cute as hell so that you can tolerate, like are an upset by then? Yeah, Like it's hard to get mad at a robot that took your job when it looks like Wally and it does a little like top half damn.
Yeah, and it's really good at it. It's like, well, shucks, well shucks on that. Uh got Do you want to play a little I love a game. Let's do it?
Play the game gets to Squawk in the Mystery Animal Sound game. Every week I play a mystery animal sound and you the listener, and you the guests, try to guess who was making that sound. It can be any animal in the world.
Uh.
Last week's mystery animal sound hint was this This monk is ignoring his vows of celibacy and is on the market for some kinky kanky.
All right, Adam, what.
Do you think about that?
This monk is violating his vow of celibacy and it's down for some hanky panky.
That is a mating call.
Of a uh a, uh, I'm some kind of uh catholic named monkey.
That's that's that is that is close. It's close, but it's not a monkey. Uh. It is a capuchin bar so uh yes, so you got the you got the like, well, actually, I don't know our capuchin monk's Catholic.
This is also the name of a monkey, is it not?
It is? It is also the name of a monkey, but this one is the bird version of that. So congratulations to Lara W who said that she's heard one of these at the San Diego Zoo, which is a great zoo. So capuchin birds have that name because they look like capuchin monks. It's actually the same monkeys. The little like it's like they look like they have a little brown robe, but they have a bald Yeah.
They do.
Adam, are you looking at it?
I'm super looking at one. They are incredible looking.
They're weird. They're you know, it's interesting because as much as I adore vultures and buzzards and like condors, they are kind of ugly because bald head. And I gotta admit it, but I love them. I love them still, these guys, even though they have a bald head. I would describe it's super cute. They're really cute because there's something about like they've got Yes, they're bald, but they're
smooth and then they have this enormous cut. It like gives me it's like it's like a little it's the cuteness of like a little old man wearing an extremely fluffy winter coat where you.
Just you know, north face winter coat. It does look like a small bird wrapped up so warm and cozy. It really does.
Yeah, it's a little bird bird Brito. They're adorable. And why do you think it's making this call?
It's got to be a mating call. I mean, birds are the best for mating calls.
Absolutely.
Yeah, that one was funny too.
Yes, this is this is a sexy dial up internet tone that it is using to try to attract a mate. They are found in the Amazon. So the Amazon the best place in the world to find the weird, really wackiest animals. Such a hot spot of culture, of animal diversity.
You gotta get it.
I gotta get out there once in my life, you know, I got to get out to the Yeah Amazon, honestly, you know, try, you know, see what's out there?
Give it. Yeah, get out there, get in there, get it.
What are you doing you're still doing?
What are you still doing here in that Amazon? Check it out? Gotta do it.
Onto this week. This animal sound the hint is this sure sounds fierce, but am sure sounds fierce, but the most you have to fear from him with his chomdia.
Yeah, so what.
Do you think?
That's pretty epic that those events were pretty epic.
That was just my that was my tummy. It's lunchtime for me, almost robot talk dinner, dinner time for me.
Hm hmm. That's great. I got any guests, oh Am, I supposed to guess? Okay, great, Okay.
Go for it.
Boy, that's that sounds like sometimes like I'm gonna guess it's some kind of bore it like it's the sex sounds of something of four.
That sounds great to me too, But I actually know the answer. I'm not gonna tell you. I'm tell next. I gotta know you'll you'll have to find out on next week's episode of Creature Feature. You think you know who is making that? Just wonderful? Beautiful sense suel sound sense sual sound right to me at Creature Feature Pod at gmail dot com. You can write to me also your questions, pictures of your pet, random bird, you saw a bug you found you thought was cool?
Yeah? Whatever?
Uh yeah, books are great, Adam, Thank you so much for joining me today pleasure, Where can people? Where can people find you? And the content that you make with your own brain and.
Not something definitely not AI content because I don't know how to use it well enough to get UH.
You can find all the thousands of podcasts.
I do on uh a patreon called smallbeans patreon dot com.
Gosh, small beans. They're our podcasts about video games. One op spinship for me.
On iHeart Lives. Also some others that I do about movies. I have a new movie podcast.
Launching a Magimie fish and thinking April.
I'm not sure exactly when, but it will be on her YouTube channel called lynch Pins about David Lynch.
It's good. It's a video podcast, so that's.
Kind and uh isn't It's.
Yes, it is.
But you know the advantage of it just being a video podcast is you could have it on your YouTube at work and not look at me.
You don't have to look at me, you know. Okay, So that's that's an advance you'll see.
UH.
So there's that podcast. It's like visual video.
And lastly, I have a feature film coming out that I produced, documentary about the sea showing industry called Santaba.
Yeah.
I believe that will be coming out this year. Keep your eyes filled for it. We're really proud of it.
It's come along long way, looks great. We think we don't. We're trying to sell it, and we feel fairly confident that I hope we'll see it.
The sealling is yes of the island of Santaba, which is in Florida and was entirely destroyed by HURRICANEUMLIVI.
About Oh my god, well that's really interesting. Oh listen, seashells. They're just the clothes of animals, and we love animals.
They're just grade close.
It's just grape clos that's all it is.
It's just the bones that animals wear on the outside. Bones check check show, check out all those things. Highly recommend. I'm excited for this lunch visual.
I like how you've grabbed onto that. I'm so happy.
I I like David Lynch though you know, I like I like stuff he does, but he's very weird, so I'm yaiud about that. I also I like I like you, and I like Baba by Fish. So what's not what's.
Not the point of that podcast is if you've ever wanted to get into David Lanch this is a good entry point for you to like appreciate what he does.
That's the idea.
Great, that's fantastic. All right, Well, thank you guys so much for listening. If you leave a rating or review, I am so grateful. I read all the reviews and all the ratings. They truly do help. They make a difference. It tells the algorithm that this podcast is valuable. And uh, you know that's going to be important when everything is algorithms, because it's all robots, just robots talking to robots.
Uh.
And thank you to the Space Classics for their super awesome song. Ex Aluminum Creature Feature is a production of iHeartRadio for our podcasts like the one you just heard. Visit I Heart Radio app Apple podcast or where you listen to your favorite job. I don't judge you. I'm not your mother. You've gotta live your life to beat up your own drum. See you next Wednesday.