Paging Dr. Yogi Bear!

Discover this and more as we answer the angel question would you call an elephant midwife more of a mega wife? Joining me today is friend of the podcast and producer of many lovely iHeartRadio shows, including the podcast Fake Doctors, Real Friends. Joel Monique. Welcome, Hey Katie, Thanks for having me back on such a dope topic. I'm assuming no birds are into doctoring. Well, there's like a few a few birds. Okay, Once again, I will face my fears

with you. Joel does not like birds. It is something that somehow we're still friends even though Joel doesn't like birds. I don't even know how we've respect birds I just fear them right as well. Yeah, I want to hunt them down. I don't, you know, have a vendetta against the birds. I just would prefer they stay on their side of the street. Okay, they get the sky, I'll stay on the ground. It's no problem. What about penguins. Penguins are more like plushies, and therefore they can stay

I see they don't. They don't kind of need to learn to fly qualify as birds to you. Yes, So if a bird is I guess, if a bird is round enough and on the ground enough, that's okay with you. If it's cheeks can apple, it can hang around, okay, adorable, adorable. Love a penguin, all of them, the little ones, the tall ones, that tuxedoed ones. All penguins are welcome here, the business, casual ones, all of them, all of them. Turkeys need to learn to fly, though, I need them

to get the hell out of here. Terrified turkeys are a little more dinosaur like. I get that. They are sort of you know, the head. The head is a little bit you know, gnarled. Yeah, yeah, Well, we aren't focusing on birds today. We're just talking about all the animals who use natural medicine. I feel like we think as humans that we've kind of quartered the market on medicine,

that we're the only ones who use it. But in fact, animals have been using medicine probably far longer than humans ever have, and they find everything out there in nature. So Joe, well, have you ever seen a bear scratching its back against a tree? Sure? Have I have too. I actually saw one in person. Ones from far away, Otherwise I would have peepeed and poo pooed my pants. It was close up. I have a healthy fear of bears, yeah,

very reasonable, but this one was quite far away. It was from I think I was staying at a lodge or something in the Sequoias and there was a window you could look out, and I saw in the distance a bear scratching its back against a tree, and it was so cute. It's adorable. They look like they're dancing, just shaking their groove thing. I know, they look so into it. It It looks so like they are just having

the time of their life. They look adorable. I know they could rip my face off and eat it like a big lasagna, But I still think they're really cute, especially when they do the whole back scratchies against the tree. They just they seem like they are an utter bliss when they do that topier moment for bears. So what do you think that they are trying to do when they are scratching their back against a tree, Katie? Are they not trying to scratch an itch? They probably are.

Here's the thing is that it's probably a number of things. Like it's probably itchy for the itchies. They may also be marking territory. It's probably like a multi functional thing, right, Like they get the itchies out, and then also other bears know that Gerald was here and he had an

itchy butt. But there maybe yet another reason. Recently, as reported by The New York Times, researchers have found that brown and black bears seem particularly attracted to using specific species of conifer trees, and furthermore, they are attracted to the scent of beach tar in experimental settings, and the researchers suspect that they may be selecting specific trees for

a reason. Zoo pharmacognosy, which is a big word which basically means animals that select specific plants or substances and either eat them or apply them topically to treat themselves for a variety of conditions, such as parasite infestation or the itchies. Oh my gosh, trees are so helpful. The trees are good in general. Hot take. I like trees. They're good for Yes, they keep the birds away from me. Yes, there you go up off the floor and away from

where I walk. And that's beautiful of them. Pretty Yeah, keeps them birds arboreal. So you may have observed zoo farm a cognosy yourself. Every time your cat or your dog eats grass and throws up, maybe a case of

your cat or dog medicating itself. So often, but not always, grass eating is a way for your cat or your dog to help with a tommy egg or infection of an intestinal parasite, And as you may know, it causes them to throw up or sometimes have diarrhea, which can help them get rid of the parasite or stomach bug whatever it is causing them distress. Although sometimes they just eat grass because they like how it tastes. So my dog is definitely the latter, because we will just like

mow along on. I'm like, what are you doing, kid, Like, get out of here? Yeah, you know, it's gonna make you sick, and she's like, well, what if I said a little bit more of this grass? Yeah, I'm sure it'll be fine. Yeah. Like my dog, I think, sometimes likes to nibble grass. It's very specific grass. She likes to eat though, that like this thicker. I don't really know the species of grass much, but it's like the thicker grass and she maybe it's called crabgrass. I'm not

really sure, but she likes that. And she's also a dog who likes a good vegetable, so she'll eat bell peppers um with a gusto. So I think in her case, sometimes grass eating is more of a culinary exploration than trying to get rid of a tummy ache. But for other cats and dogs, sometimes they will eat it because they've got a tummy ache. That's good to know. And then you can kind of keep an eye like, oh he's not feeling good. Yeah, you track of it a

little bit. It's a good thing. Yeah, it's not something to panic over, like you said, Like if your cat or dog regularly eats grass and they've otherwise got a clean bill of health from the vet, like they probably just like the flavor. It's sort of like I love ginger and ginger beer, and I also love it for tummy aches. It's great, It's perfect for tummy aches and delicious just for no reason. Yeah exactly, I'll drink it just because it's good, but I'll also drink it when

I've got a tummy ache. Fortunately, it doesn't make me yack up a bunch of grass onto the carpet. Awful. Yeah, it's me big farm us. So they can get pills that don't make them sick. So yeah, So it is a relatively common thing found in animals that they will eat stuff or apply stuff to make themselves feel better. And so back to the bears. Researchers found that bears seem to select specific trees, specific conifers, and they also

found that beech tar and turpentines. Turpentine is distilled tree resin. You wouldn't really find it much in nature, but it like the the tree resin in this distilled form. But still it is a strong smell that would be similar to the kinds of like tree resin that you would find in the trees. And so in experimental settings, both of these compounds seem to attract bears, and more importantly, they seem to repel ticks. So ticks are a menace

to furry society. And it's hard when you're a big bear, even though you got those big arms with big old claws, still to get get all those ticks off you, especially ones that are like right right on your back. You know, it's hard. No, oh, right in the middle where if you get a bad itch you would need a tree to scratch. Yeah, got pull ticks out, plus takes care of you so much disease. So that's exactly exactly. Parasites

are not just a nuisance. They can be quite dangerous, and so far, while the evidence is circumstantial, it seems plausible that the bears are in addition to getting that nice scratch on which gosh it just if you, I mean, like I imagine being a bear and getting that nice itchy tree would just be the best feeling. But then also they are getting potentially some tree sap as insect repellent when they are scratching themselves on the bark, and so they are getting this like it's like a backscratcher

plus zeet combination. Well might start selling that immediately, Oh my god, yeah, I'd buy it in the summer. It's high. I'm trying to move around too much. Love a two and one appliance brilliant, just pocket sized conifer. Give me a little pocket tree to scratch my back on. Amazing. Also, bears have been observed mixing Osha roots and their own saliva into a kind of sticky paste that they rub all over their bodies, which may double as an insect

repellent and bite soothing substance. Bears are foraging for moisturizers. That is crazy. They belong on TikTok. They really get bears on TikTok right now. Yeah, I know. I'm so intimidated by like skincare routines online where it's just there's like a five thousand serums that you put on in a specific order, you know, masks you're you're supposed to. I mean like it's like your face is an old timey photograph that you're trying to treat in dark room,

and it's intimidating. Once I got to the droppery, so I was like, this is so much. I was so I got one that has like retina and collagen in it, and I was like, okay, it's like firm and like refine perfect. But then I was scared of it, like it was a chemical only use like pipe pets and chemistry labs. Do I touch it? Is it safe? It's very weird. It's so weird. It is very strange. I have to admit I do use like do like have my own very small in comparison skincare routine, but it is.

I try to keep it simple. Otherwise it's just it's madness. It's timax out at five steps, five skincare routine steps, and that's that's yeah. Yeah, It's like I wash my face maybe some kind of exfoliation, and then moisturize, and then that's it. I can't. I can't think about it anymore. Otherwise it's all I'm gonna be doing all day. But that seems like what you need on a very day to day basis. And then I'll have like mass and

like overnight moisturizers because I don't know. That's what older ladies did before me, when they hit their thirties, they were like, okay, now a night cream, that's it. That's that's what we're doing. Pet. Maybe just like I could fill an immersion tank up with some sort of viscous goo that gets me youthful, and I sleep in that like a Disney villain, right right, Don't ask what the goo is made out of. Certainly not the blood of virgins.

Don't worry about no yeah nood extract. But yeah, So, bears have a very skimple, very simple skincare routine definitely belongs on TikTok, though, I'd watch the heck out of a bear beauty influencer just chewing on rocks and slathering its own saliva all over its face. Just adorable. Can you how to put on lashes? A little bear? I'm ready? Can you imagine a Paddington Uh influencer just like Paddington

on TikTok? That that's that would get me in. That would finally get me into TikTok like I've resisted so far. But if Paddington was on TikTok talking about his little his little beauty routines, that'd be it. I'd be done. His overall collection alone would be enough to draw me in. Let's go team off of the century. So this habit of bears potentially to be using these substances as bug repellent is not unprecedented at all in the Animal Kingdom.

There are lots of other examples, For instance, Capuccian monkeys. These are New World monkeys found in Central and South America, and they have a habit of rubbing smelly, acidic plants all over their bodies as insect repellent. They've been found to rub citrus, clematis, flower, and pepper plants over their fur to deter parasites, which makes them smell lovely. I was gonna say so now we're also making perfumes. Yeah, very lovely again foraged in the forests with their bare hands.

Talk about work uh hashtag Amish life. I would absolutely, I absolutely watch these berries get down on the TikTok. I also feel like I have enough of those ingredients that I could be making my own at home, which is nice. Yeah yeah, around and pepper root. Yeah. So these these uh capuchin monkeys also in captivity, they will use plants that are not available to them in the wild but still effective at the Dudley Zoo in England. Captive capuchin monkeys use spring onions given to them by

caretakers and rub them all over themselves. They just go they love these these spring onions. They'll grab them and apparently immediately start rubbing themselves down, rubbing under their little armpits, uh, rubbing Like, no, this is what you think. It's like l or some sense that they have that's heightened that we don't where they're like, oh this is yeah for me. Yeah.

I think it's a strong smell and it may even be sort of a like they may be able to smell that it's kind of acidic, and it's that acidic smell that's like, oh this this goes right on my body. And parents will rub their young with it as well, so it just kind of like rub down the babies that are too young to kind of know how to

do it themselves. And so it's my my suspicion is that it is a combination of instinct and learning because they are social animals and so they probably instinctively know like which smells kind of right to them, but there may be some aspect of social learning in them because their their parents will rub them down as well. Okay, I love that onions is protection, yeah, which is do

it too human? Which is monkeys? I keep I always get garlic and onions mixed up, so I feel like I would probably try to ward off a vampire with onions, and then it's like, oh wow, it's great. Now my human meal comes with some onions. Mixing garlics and onion is the best way to start any dish. I mean honestly, it really. This is the magic to make your kitchen smell divine garlic. So yeah, yeah, that's like goesn't anything. Chocolate cake? Yeah yeah, Lessen, you can highlight your chocolate

cake with it. Just roast a little garlic, sprinkle it on top. I promise you was a surprise. You'd be like, bam, that's really flavorful. So another animal who likes to rub stuff on themselves are the white nose coates, who are adorable mammals who live in Mexico, Central and South America and cowates sort of they look like a long game a raccoon, Like he took a raccoon and just kind of stretched it out a little bit. Oh. They've got

longer snouts, longer tails, and they they're very cute. They like to scratch the bark of certain plants and then rub themselves or others in the sap. So they might even take some of the sap and rub like a comrade up with this sap, and the SAP has been found to have insect repellent properties. Nice. I like that they're like, listen, mosquitoes. I know we're out here in the jungle all animals, but what we won't be doing is devouring me as somebody who was allergic to mosquitoes

as a child. I get it, man. I wish that there was this team up between you and the cowads and they were just like rub and sap on little child Joel and mean like it's all right, we're your magical animal friends and we're here to help you. I used to rub popsicles on them because they hurt, so they'd be like icy. But then now I'm covered in like sticky sugar. So the mosquitoes game and ate me somewhere. What are you doing for baby Joel? It was like seven,

It was really a problem. You really did. You really did need the Disney princess treatment of having some magical kawatee and bear friends. I have been so great. I would have been less lonely and less bitten off, unfortunately for you. The last animal we're going to talk about is birds in relation to animals who rub anti insect or pellent on them. The ironic twist here is that

the birds use insects to get rid of insects sons. Yeah, so tons of bird species do something called anting, where they rub ants all over their feathers, which causes the ants to release formic acid, which is a defense mechanism. And then this formic acid is not strong enough to hurt the birds, but it cuts their feathers and acts as a lice killer. This is horrific and ingenious. So for these poor ants who are like, no, I know what I'll do. Let me just ooze out this thing

that usually stops things from killing me. And they're like, it's not working, it's just making them stronger, and then they're crushed to death. There they don't exist anymore. For the birds, like what A find it just if I roll around as some ants Now I don't have lice. I mean for human me, that's a really that's a difficult trade off. Yeah, I hate swarms of things and both of these creatures. No, I can't. I can't do it. I want either, Please can't do it? WHOA No, See

this is the difference between you and me. When you were seven, you're getting attacked by mosquitos and trendys popsicles. When I was seven, I was eating ants and trying to attack birds. Well, not attack you, lie, A thorn bear. What was it. I don't know. I mean maybe a little bit. I tried to catch birds. I would say, like I think I saw some wily coyote cartoons and I set up like a box with a stick and put some bird seed under it, and I thought this

will work. It didn't. It didn't work at all, But ants were easier to just maybe. Okay. When I was seven, I probably wasn't eating ants at that point. I think that was more of a five year old me activity because I was curious, and they taste, you know, kind of peppery. They're not bad. That's your scientist adventurer spirit. Yeah, And they've become quite idelic to see across the culinary world. So clearly there's something right. It's just going on exactly.

I haven't discovered it yet. So before we start asking animals to be our doctors handing out m d's, I think it is important to point out that while some animals, like primates, may learn how to use medicine by observing their elders or through cause and effect. For many animals,

it is most likely instinctive. Just as animals instinctively seek out food and find food appetizing that fulfills their nutritive needs, medical substances may simply taste good or be attractive to them, and it may be instinctive, but still what's really interesting is that animals seem to not just passively eat beneficial plants all the time, like as part of their diet, but seem to respond dynamically to having certain symptoms or injuries and will use the substance to treat themselves, which

I think that is what's so interesting to me is like it kind of makes sense like to you know, if you eat a certain plants like oh, this plant also has anti inflammatory properties and it's like great. But if you eat something like you have something happen to you, like when a dog or cat has a tummy ache and then they eat grass. That's so interesting to me that there is there is this instinctive ability to treat

a current ailment. Yes, it definitely comes across as like thinking, like reaching for something very specific as opposed to like this is my natural instincts, like oh, tell me hurts eat grass which I'm sure is what bare thought processes as opposed to be like oh my, this grass will cure me, help that parasite pass. It's just very I think it's kind of cool to think about, like what

instinctually humans know to do well, thirsty drink water. We're not like, well, this will help my cell homeostasis of my cells work good when I drink this water. We're just like king this water now, exactly exactly. Although I don't know, maybe some people think in terms of their cellular homeostasis. I don't know. It's not me, it's not I can tell you I have never considered that as recent for a gospel of homeostasis. I just had myself

a big gulp of homeostasis. So before I continue, I want to do a shout out to Eraldo Medeiros Costaneto, who is a professor at the University Estete Fierra de Santana of Resilt, who wrote an excellent and comprehensive article called zoo farm a cognosi the self medication behavior of Animals from which I got a ton of info. So that is a great article if you want to learn more. So some zoo farm a cognozi behaviors may be hard to catch in lab environments, but have been observed by

people living near these animals for centuries. So a lot of times like things will be written in folklore or

passed down kind of in oral histories. And it's really important to pay attention to these things because while it's true that like it is good to have scientific method and try to establish things in these experimental settings, these observations by a lot of cultures are really really significant when it comes to understanding animal behavior, because it is it can be really hard to be able to witness animal behavior being in the right place at the right

time for a wild animal. And also when you take a wild animal and say, put it in a laboratory setting, they won't have the same behaviors. So I think it is so important to take seriously these accounts of cultures over many centuries of the animals that they have observed. I don't watch animals that closely, like like I'm like, you know, maybe my dog, but like you like my roommate almost, I'm like, hey, good, you know ed f water, Like, oh,

she's just a little authargic today. But I'm trying to imagine like being out in the wild and being like, oh that animals medicating itself. Really, people are so smart people are That is an incredible skill. I think the people who are like I can sit patiently and wait for animals to respond and react and teach me something

about the environment. Yeah, seriously. And also, like throughout history, I think there's been a lot of evidence of humans like observing animal behavior, especially when it comes to what they eat and medicate with, and then copying that and discovering things that are helpful in human medicine. So there is this example of species of tegu. So these are large lizards found in central South America and Panama. So Tagus are black, brown, and white lizards. They typically grow

a little over three feet long about a meter. The largest species, the black and white tigu, grows a little over four feet long or one point three meters. So they're hefty, you know that. Big lizards. That's a big lizard. Yeah. They are burrowing lizards and they live and rainforests, deciduous forests, and grasslands. So they are omnivores and will eat anything that they can from small rodents, birds, eggs, insects, fruits, amphibians and carrion to human food that they steal from

mini marts. Wow, they're not picky, no, no, there. They have a wide palette and they are not too snooty to say no to some fast food that for them. So some tagus are actually kept as pets, and they can apparently be quite chill in captivity, but in the wild they are not that chill. They will whip you with their tail if they think that you're trying to attack it. But apparently pet tagus can be, you know, pretty relaxed. Oh cute, I want one. They're adorable. For

some reason, pet lizards always crack me up. I just I don't know. It's it's so funny to me because I definitely respect lizards, and I think they are conscious, but I suspect that they're sort of entire philosophy on life is so different from anything even remotely human that they are probably completely bewildered by being a pet. Like okay,

well I'm in this thing's lap. Now, that's interesting. I just you know, because like I can, like with a with a cat or a dog or a pig or a bird, I kind of see certain social behaviors they have that like they kind of like, Okay, yeah, I guess some buddies with this human then, But like with tagus and other lizards, like, it's not that I think they can't have affection for their owners, but it's something lizardy and I'm not sure what it is harder to

show for a lizard even really any reptile. Like people love snakes and you know, power to you, but I don't even know if that pet really sees you as like owner and pet as your relationship. I don't know, ye like thing that cleans my environment every once in a while, right, The problem is, I mean the thing is like a lot a lot of reptiles are not particularly social. That doesn't necessarily mean an animal can't have

the cognition to like be friendly to a human. That that's not because you know, cats aren't like super social either in a wild ct like certainly the types of cats that are domesticated cats came from, but they can be. I think it's just like reptiles are so their brains are just so different, and so I just I feel like maybe they're like, wow, this is a cool tree. It like moves around and yeah, it's warm, and I

like that. So in Brazilian folklore, there are various anecdotal accounts over the centuries that hold that tagus will eat a certain type of root after being bitten by a venomous snake. So the root is called batata detau, which I think means tagu root, and it's also known as the Jatropha elliptica Jatropha elliptica, and this plant has also

been used in human folk medicine for snake bites. So yeah, so research on the plant has revealed that the plant does contain compounds that can have a neutralizing effect on pit viper venom. So I find it highly credible, highly likely that people saw these take goose chewing on these roots after being bitten by snakes and then copied that and found that the roots had this neutralizing effect for snake bites. That is incredible that because literally, in Allow,

that's such a miracle. Like when I think about all the things we do nowadays to like create an anti venom, they have to collect the poison and the only do your science thing and change it, and here's this root

that grows naturally. I mean, I will say, don't give up on the anti venoms, because I think probably a good deal more effective holistic medicine only Katie, Oh my god, no, no, trust the anti venom, yes, how I want it if I'm bitten, right, but how but if you are in dire straits, right, you don't have access to anti venom or in times before we were able to develop anti venom. Yeah, this stuff seems to have had an effect, and it's you know, we this is sort of the course of

human history. There we discovered plants and substances that have these properties. Now we can refine those too much greater extent. We can like isolate the compounds that actually have the effect that we want. But a lot of these compounds are things that originated from nature. So we learn from nature. We can. You know, back before we were able to develop medicine in the same way that we do today

with pharmaceuticals, we were able to find stuff. You know. Again, that's not saying like go and eat a bunch of roots and see what happens. It's nice that a lot of people did that before our time, and trial tested various roots and berries and stuff, so we don't have to do that as much. Thank you for your sacrificing ancestors, because I don't want to right, not to torment you too much, Joel, but I do want to talk about birds real briefly. Again, Okay, let's do it. Let's do it.

So sometimes birds will build their entire homes out of medicine. So yeah, it's just like man. If I could have walls made out of thailannel and just lick the wall whenever I had a headache, I'd so do that. It's very helpful. It's like the Charlie the Willie Wonka is chocolate factory, but it's like Willie Walker's funky house of pharmaceuticals, and the walls are made of thailannel and the chairs are made out of I don't know, xanax, all good stuff.

Oh my goodness. So European starlings will line their nests with wild carrot plants, which contain be sidosterol, which deters mites and stops mites from laying eggs. Well that's good. Yeah again, diseases so many, Yes, it's like kind of I don't know, it's like putting mothballs in your closet, except you live on the mothballs. I'm not sure it's healthy to live on mothballs, it would now, no, but cedar.

I mean people have used cedar, like cedar chests and cedar furniture, which helps deter things like moths and insects. So you know. Also, house sparrows are sophisticated enough in their behavior that they may switch their building nest materials based on environmental factors. During malaria outbreaks, It's been observed that house sparrows use more paradise flower leaves in their nests. These leaves are rich in quinine, which can help with

symptoms of malaria. So researchers suspect that the birds may be instinctively selecting leaves that help ease their malarial symptoms, which I think is really interesting. I mean, that's great. Again, what do I know about malaria? It's painful and not fun. No, the fact that they can switch it up just by using different building materials. You have you ever gotten malaria? No? Thank god? I was like, because you're when you're saying like what I know about malaria is like, oh my god,

just from that my text book learning. Yeah, it's good, good, good man, because I've had like I've had I have not had malaria, but I have had um, you know, tummy troubles that have caused lots of bathroom time, let's say, and to the point where sometime like, wait is this am I dying? Am I just gonna potty myself to death? Here? Nobody liked that moment. And malaria is like that, but on steroids from what I can tell, and that's it's horrifying.

And it sweeps through a community very quickly, yes, easily transferable, like malaria is not anything to mess around with. No, no, exactly, would build a house to protect me from malaria if I could? Yeah, it's it's it's not great. I mean, it is amazing how many interventions that humans have come up with for malaria, from mosquito nets to a sort of like decreasing mosquito populations through like gene editing and stuff.

So it's we do have ways to combat it. I'm just it's so interesting to me that animals as well of like, you know, like, screw this malaria thing. This is horrible. I don't know how they do it, but it's I'm glad they did. And ess looks really dope. So so you did it. If a style function, it's all there there you go. Yeah, so I think it's kind of interesting that a lot of complaints about medicine

is that it's unnatural. Have you heard that kind of thing where it's like, oh, oh, sure, you're putting random things in your body blah blah blah. Yeah, which is funny. Some people who say that are like anti medicine, are like, oh, why would I put these toxins in my body? And then they like turns out like they smoke and drink alcohol, Oh my gosh, or like don't bother reading anything that's in their food. Right, But I also think people get

like weirded out. They're like, oh, it's genetically modified grow. I'm like, that's really good. That helps us not start Yeah, it helps make our plants more resistant to things like acidarine. You want some genetically modified materials in the food you eat that it's not all bad, Like you have to be discerning. Yeah, genetic modification doesn't worry me in terms of like my health. So like when if you genetically modify,

say a tomato, it's not gonna poison you. They would notice if they accidentally modified a tomato to be poisonous. The all the big thing scientists, Oops, this tomato has teeth. Now we didn't mean to do that, So yeah, that's not really a concern. The only like, the only concern with like genetic modification is you don't want to make a plant that's like so tough it outcompetes natural plants. But we do that anyways, just through selective breeding of

plants and farming practices. We already do that. So it's not like genetic modification is unique in that respect. It's just you know, the same problems we have with say agriculture and say like introducing a species somewhere or monocultures. It's the same, it's the same stuff. Like genetic modification has the same potential perils as that, but it is not inherently a dangerous thing. It's just like any other technology that could have negative outcomes. But certainly it's not.

It's not just oh it sounds sciency and therefore it's dangerous. It's like no, I mean, like certain like the dust bowl, that kind of ecological disaster was just from farming practices. It had nothing to do with like you know, modern science of genetic modification. That that was just classic farming

problems and weather issues. I think it's always funny that people think natural things are inherently better, which I feel like listeners to this podcast, No, can't be true, given that nature is full of terrifying parasites, animals who eat their own offspring, and general mayhem. So it's not like nature is this soft, gentle place. It's just it is what it is. It's nature. It's full of all sorts

of things. It's literally chaos. It is literally chaos. So many things have some things that are like highly organized and function in the same way for millennia, something just new and pop it off every day. And nature is wild and complete, unpredictable, and if so, glad science was like what if we try to put some order to some of this right exactly, And so when it comes to medicine, it's like, well, medicine, you know, being a

like upset that medicine isn't natural. I mean, animals, you know, use medicine, so they they kind of seek out their own medical treatments in ways, and so it's like, you know, it is not it is not unnatural to use medicine. It's just that we have often refined medicine to a much greater extent than animals are capable of doing one thing in particular. I think that people have hang ups about are like a reproductive health use of hormone treatments.

We're like, oh, but that's like it's unnatural to do those things. Like there's this it's this specific thing, like once you start like controlling your own reproductive health, there's there's a lot of like pearl clutching over it, being like, oh, that's not natural, but act Actually, there's some evidence that animals may have figured out how to have some control over their reproductive health for a long time. That is

mind blowing, Katie, what how so? The Southern miriqui, also known as the wooly spider monkey, is a New World monkey found in Brazil. They are the largest primates found in the Americas, although they really cannot compete with Old World monkeys or Old World primates in terms of size. So these way around thirty pounds or fifteen kilograms. They are brown, they are fluffy, They are absolutely adorable. They

eat fruit and they help disperse fruit seeds. They are sometimes called the hippie monkey because aggression within groups of monkeys is rare and they are super peaceful. Oh I love them already. I know, so female and males are similar in size, so there's not really any aggression based on sex, and there's not really much hierarchy in these groups. The only aggression they really have is sometimes they will attack like outsiders, monkeys that aren't in the group, and

it's unknown exactly why or when they do that. So it's not like they are one hundred percent pacifists, but they are a very, very surprisingly peaceful species of monkey. I am upset that they have a bad rap when they're actually out here just being kind, generous souls. Okay, what do these This is possibly racist? I don't like it. Oh yeah, I get yeah, Like I don't know, it's kind of funny to me calling them hippie monkeys. It's like kind of insulting. I don't know. But they are, Yeah,

they're they're very sweet species of monkeys. And really interestingly, during mating periods, female mariquis have been observed to eat plants that contain isoflavonoids, which can raise the female's estrogen and decreases her fertility. Ah yeah, but these same monkeys have also been observed eating plants that contain stig masterol, which may increase her fertility. So these two plants they will eat, you know, alternatingly throughout mating periods that can

either increase or decrease their fertility. So this, while this hasn't been proven, it is possible that these monkeys are able to control the chance of reproductive success based on eating these plants. So I think it is something that would be really really fascinating to see more research on because it appears like they have the tools to be able to exert some amount of reproductive control, which, to

be fair, like a lot of animals do. It's just usually has something to do with biology, like being able to reject sperm packets or you know, like um, but with these they might actually be using plants to control their fertility. That is so smart. Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. I had no clue any animal could do this, but to know that they can do it, you know, in both directions they get to choose, Uh, that's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. And so you know it's like I one of my

pet peeves. Now I don't have any children, but I have seen these things about like people talking about how like if you have any medical assistance with like pregnancy or fertility, or like say you have a C section rather than giving you know, a quote unquote natural birth, Like that's how it doesn't count. And that is so silly to me. It's like, sure, okay, just don't wear glasses, then,

I guess because that's not natural, don't you know? Like so many like you're wearing clothes, Like what are you talking about? That? It's not it doesn't count if someone

has medical interventions for pregnancy. Right. People are stingy with their acknowledgements sometimes, and I'm sure they just want to chalk it up to like, oh, they're just dumb animals, they're just eating food, like it doesn't make a difference when I feel like even animals, even when they're moving on instinctly, like nothing is happening for just no reason.

It is chaos. But you know, again, people are out here making choices, and even animals get to make choices, right Like your dog prefers the crab grass some of the others. That's what she likes. So you know, I think it's it's strange and especially given the way we've seen you know, animals that mimic our way of thinking, or maybe not mimic, but have similar patterns for example, like elephants more and they're dead and like raise their

kids and they have like whole protective stances. Like we know animals have feelings and cognitive thoughts about how they want to move through the world. And so I think to deny you know, these animals, they're reproductive rights. Shame on you world, boo, Yeah, shame on us. We're also

denying ourselves reproductive rights. Hey, there it is. Yeah. And actually, speaking of elephants, Joel, African elephants have been observed to possibly exhibit reproductive zoo pharmacognosi, as they will seek out leaves from the boragin us say no, wait, boragins. Yeah, I think I got it. Bagginess say trees to induce labor.

So these, these same trees, these same leaves is something that humans have been using for centuries to induce labor in folk medicine in many parts of the world where these breagness say trees exist, And it seems like through observational evidence that elephants may do the same thing. How very midwife of them. Yes, I knew elephants are like a top three animal for me love an elephant, and so this does not surprise me at all that they found ways to be there, like that baby is in breach.

We got to induce labor immediately, get them out here. Please make a great anatomy show. But with elephants, Oh my god, I'll be here. I would watch that so much. I mean, Grandma elephant really holding down the foe like you got your bulls on the outside. They're definitely the surgeons where they're just all cocky for the reason I see it. Yeah, no, I mean it is I would

look like Elephant society is so fascinating. First of all, it's like pretty much a matriarchy, so it is the female elder female elephants sharing all their knowledge, passing it down. The males are typically will be the ones that disperse, so they will leave the group when they are adults and go off and find a new group of elephants to like, mate with and such. So the females are kind of the constant core of a group of elephants, a pack of elephants, so they will kind of pass

on a lot of parenting skills as well. So you'll have like these grand grandmas and mom and aunts and stuff, and they all they often show a lot of interest too. When an elephant is giving birth, like there will be a crowd of elephants, including juvenile elephants who have not had experience with this yet, and it's like they're just

passing all this information along. Often, like the elder elephants will teach younger mothers, like how they're supposed to take care of the young elephants and stuff, and kind of like correct them on how to you know, say the elephant trips over. It's like, look, this is what you do.

So it is. It is really amazing. I think also that they seem to have I mean, it's not surprising to me, given that they seem to have very sophisticated abilities to understand, like remembering information that is important, like remembering certain routes that they need to take, or like if the weather is a certain way, they know to take a different route in this case, being able to identify a plant that is potentially helpful to induce labor

when you know they are having perhaps some issues or something. I think it's it's I think it's very very plausible that this is totally intentional. And I also think it's plausible that this is something that they've learned and that this is something that's passed out as information. I mean, of course, this is something that would need more observational

studies to kind of confirm. But yeah, I think that elephants are sophisticated enough that I would I would suspect that they would be able to pass on information about like these medicinal plants too. Too. Younger elephants, oh for sure. And they're so being a lab cooking. Yes, the young just I don't know, they're so uh they're they. I also just they's so the wrinkliness of elephants. It's like

they're always wearing pants. I like their little eyes. There's also they are have boobs like people, like they're one of the only they do. They're one of the only animals out there where the females have boobs like human women do. Most most animals, like their teats are smaller, less boobuler. But yeah, elephants got big old honkers and

I'm not talking about their trunks. It was shocking the FaceTime my STI I was like, wait, what, oh my gosh, okay, and then I wanted to get her bra but I was like, I bet support from down there is easier than us trying to balance these things on our chest for walking around all day. They're like, no, that just hangs low down there. It's fine, Yeah, nothing, do not need support. I would like to see someone trying to fit an elephant for our bra though, that would be yes, please, Yeah,

volunteers should be adorable. I feel like you would need some structural engineers to figure out how like the tensile strength for you, an assistance you'll need. There'll be trial and r you know, trial tests and when we put on the sides and oh yes, but no bows because we're over that. Well job. Well, before we go, we've got to play a little game, and that game is

called the Mystery Animal Sound Game. Every week I play a mystery animal sound and you the listener, and you the guests, trying to guess who is squawking and it can be any animal in the world. So last week's Mystery Animals sound hint was is there a frog in your mouth? Or are you just happy to see me? So here is the sound. No, that's a ad. Don't worry about that. I was like, what animal was that? It's an ad for Fanta, which I get now. So Joel, can you guess who is making that sound. It sounded

like a ghost frog. Wow. I don't know what that is, but that's what it sounded. I mean. This is sometimes called a ghost bird of this Yes, this is the common poe two. It is a bird related to frog mouth birds and night jars. Congratulation to Auntie B, Grant W and Joey P. Who all gives correctly. So like frog mouth birds, they have wide frog like mouths. They are found in tropical regions of Central and South America.

They hunt insects at night and during the day. They like to pretend to be a part of a tree, with their coloring and stiff posture resembling a jagged end of a tree stump. So they'll kind of like like sort of put their head in the air and flatten their bodies out to make themselves look more convincingly like part of a tree. It's it's very funny, all right, But yes, unfortunately it is a bird, and it is one that I think. It's on the creepier side of

birds to me. It's really cute though, like the huge mouth is funny to me, But I could I could also see an argument for it being horrifying. I'm not here for the muppet birds, the giant mouths that could swallow me whole. All right again, Once these things remember that they're actually dinosaurs, it's over for us. I yeah, but see, this is why I'm trying to be on the side of the birds, so that when that time comes, they'll use me as like their millet butler. Oh I

like that. I like that. That's a good plan. My long game is just they know that I respect them, and so when they become our overlords, I'm gonna just do what they say. I'm like, okay, mister bird, you already know I'm afraid. Just tell me what to do and I'll do it. I don't like it here, It's fine. You want me to use this toothbrush to give you little head scratches. I will do that anything you say, hopefully not my toothbrush. This bird punishment using your toothbrush

to give them scratcheese. All right, now, onto you this week's mystery animals. Sound the hint This is one peeved, pissed, particularly provoked pond paddler. Oh did you hear that? I did? He's an angry fella. So Joel, who do you think is making that sound. I am going to suggest that is a vampire pig. Again. Not sure what that is, but it sounds like a big between like an angry Jacula and a struggling pig. Interesting vampire pig. That's my vote.

I love it. I love it. Um. Well, maybe next week we will find out if this is indeed a poor sign Dracula or something else. If you just think you know who is making this sound, you can write to me at Creature feature Pod at gmail dot com. Joel, thank you so much for coming on the show and tolerating a few birds here and there. Where can people find you maybe? Thank you so much for having me back. And every time I come I faced my fear of birds and I can less afraid. So I'm grateful for you.

You guys can follow me all over the internet at Joel Meek. That's Joe L E m O and I que please do that. Joel is fantastic, And yeah, thank you so much for coming on. And thank you the listener for you know, using your ears to listen to it. I appreciate that, and I also appreciate whatever you leave a rating or review. I read all the reviews and they mean so much to me and I really really do appreciate it when you take a little bit time out of your date. Tell me what you think of

the podcasts. This is really wonderful and thank you to the Space Cossacks for their super awesome song. Exo loom Enough Creature features a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or Higgins, what where have you listen to your favorite shows? See you next Wednesday.