Oopsie Daisies!

is not really about that. The show is about weird genetic anomalies and what happens when you know, other nature just gets a little bit funky. We're talking about plants that look like a bad photoshop. We're talking about lobsters that also actually look like a bad photoshop, and butterflies. In fact, the common denominator throughout the whole episode is

this all looks like bad photoshop, but it's not. Discover this and more as we answer the angel question, is the reason dogs evolved so good because they're they're cute widow eyeballs. Joining me today to talk about all things genetically funky is comedian and scientists and all around cool person Paula Vygnalin. Welcome, Hey, thanks for having me. Thank you for coming on. I'm just talking about some genetic mix ups on the show today. I love that. I'm excited.

These things look weird, but in a beautiful way, a beautiful way. When I say weird, it's not a negative thing. It's a beautiful thing. So have you ever heard of a fasciation? Fasciation or maybe I think it's fasciation maybe like fascia like the maybe, I don't know, I don't think, so it's hard for me to pronounce this. I believe

its faciation. H So, like remember on old Windows computers when it would crash and you would like drag your cursor across the screen or like a window, and it would just keep making copies of that over and over again. So it would be yeah, yeah, just kind of like the snaking window. This happens to plants in nature. Are you saying they're a glitch in the matrix. I mean, I'm pretty confident were a simulation, just based on the probability that the universe is recursive. But it doesn't bother

me none, so you know, yeah that's fair. But yeah, no, there is a glitch in the matrix if by matrix you mean genetics. Uh, Anyways, imagine, like I meant a Mendelian matrix. Yes, Mentellian matrix. That'd be great if the new matrix is just like cool science and like we had this pea plant bread with this pea plant and neils, like, oh, I can't keep track of all these pea plants anyways. Uh, imagine a daisy you got You got a daisy in your head. It's uh, you know, flower, It's got some

petals and so on. And then imagine the daisy as if someone just like smeared it, like took a clone tool and smeared it across like I'm stretched daisy like a limo, and then a stretched limo like daisy, and a stretch daisy like the like the middle part looks like a caterpillar. Yeah, yeah it does. It's it's it's somewhat uncomfortable, but it's interesting. So it makes me feel emotions that I can't really identify exactly. I kind of want to eat it when I look at it, I'm like,

I just want to fold up this cal zone. It's kind of like a daisy cannoli. Yeah. So typically a plant part like a flower or branch or berry will have a point of growth. So for a tree, a branch will come out from a point of growth in sort of a relatively uniform cylindrical pattern. Obviously it's not exact exactly you've seen trees. What if I was like, no, no, actually, I have not seen a tree, thank you, Yeah, I'm not. I live in Hollywood, baby, They're all fake out of here, exactly.

I'm not familiar with your quote unquote tree trees. As never seen a tree. Uh. Flower buds typically have a point of growth from which is symmetrical. Flower blooms, either radial symmetry like a daisy or bilateral symmetry like an orchid. But in plants with fasciation, this point of growth becomes elongated, so a normal looking daisy becomes a stretch daisy. And strawberries instead of being this nice little tear drop shape

will like look like weird stretched strawberries. Like if you took a strawberry and you put it into Blender or some three D software and then just extruded it around its space until the strawberry looks like a half circle instead of a tear drop shape. Yeah, that's an eighty degree strawberry, right, A hundred eight degrees strawberry experience. That's so much strawberry. You could eat it like a watermelons, like could you could? You could like shove it in

your mouth, uh, and choke. I guess that's not a good I don't know I could. That's the new creature feature motto, shove it in your mouth and choke. I guess you're a creature feature. We care about the listener and we want you all to shove it in your mouth and choke. Yeah. I guess you could do that with a lot of stuff. But yeah, this is a it's a. It's a I would say I'm uncomfortable with this strawberry, you know. Uh, it makes me like I feel like that. That's not a tolerant of view. This

strawberry can't help how it looks. I need, you know. Yeah, I guess I need to learn to be more understanding of the strawberry before I stick it in a blender and pulverize it into a tasty smoothie. Yeah. I think it's good. It's it's a it's a bigger ratio of of fleshy fruit to weird leafy talk. That is true. That's a very good point. You're definitely getting more fruit to leaf rach seo, Like, could you imagine dipping this

in some fond do be so good? It could hold the chocolate like a platestead of having to be covered in I could just use it as a shovel at the chocolate fountain and just shovel that chocolate in your mouth, because we all know that there's kind of a conceit with chocolate strawberries. It's like, yeah, I really want the straw b No, you just you just want the chocolate. You're here for the chocolate. Yeah. So it also happens to stems in plants, so like a dandelion stem that

is normally you know you've seen a dandelion, right me? Yes, I don't know because you live in l A and I'm not sure. Oh yeah, Well, the wheaty things grow up between the sidewalks you mean sidewalk spangles. Yeah, I'm familiar. But they have a thin stem. But dandelion stem that undergoes fasciation becomes this like thick. It's a thick. It's a big boy. It's a big, big old thick one in it it looks like a broccoli like kind of

a thing. Like that's how thick it is. Yeah, yeah, you could, uh you know, you could really have some trouble picking this dand alone. I'll tell you what, did that sound too actual? I hope not trying to keep a clean I think this one is like weirder to me because with dandelions usually people have that image of like picking and like picking off the pedals, right, That's how it's used, isn't that stuff that That's how dandelions

are used in media as people just like ripping them apart. Yeah, I mean, you know we are here, but that's like our favorite thing to do. That's true. I also shouldn't complain given that that's most of my comedy style. Um, but but it's also that image of like a thin stem and people pulling the top part off. And this is very like now it just looks clunkier, you know, like this, you know, went to a gym. It's like

it's yeah, it's a CrossFit danielions, but it gives us. Yeah, it's like that feeling you get when you like see someone you knew from a while ago, and you know they're like sort of standard size, but then they went to a gym and got incredibly buff and bulky. This is the camal nongiani flowers. Yes, this flower is prepping to be included in the Marvel Universe cinematic use. Yes, yes.

And sometimes the fasciation is so severe that the flowers will actually start to curl around the point of growth just becomes so elongated that it like becomes a flower doughnut, which, yeah, you know, it sounds like it tastes good, but it's still just a plant. Unfortunately, it sounds like a powder donut,

but flower don't. Yeah, it sounds like, I don't know, it kind of sounds like a health food that it's like this is a flower doughnut, and you all right, like is this But then it's like not that good of a dessert, and it's also not that good of a health food. So really nobody wins it went that that. I feel like I have seen that in l a yeah, health doughnut, Yeah, a healthy doughnut. Definitely seen that in l Yeah. Yeah, no trees, but you do got health doughnuts.

It's a genetic defect that can happen in plants, and so most plants can be affected by like even an asparagus which turns into like an asparagus into an asparag No, thank you, because I'm already weirded out by asparagus. It would be in a it would be an a spare me, right, thank you for correcting my joke. It was really I'm sorry, no no, no, I mean because it was a bad joke.

It was real sickly. And then you came in and you kind of got it, did some joke CPR on and actually you coming out of the podcast, right, you just used me to punch up, and then it's just your gonna edit. This is the writer's room, right right, I'm editing you out completely, and it's just gonna be me having a conversation with myself, and like half of

the time I'm really funny and happens. I'm not that this asparagus really does look like, um oh, what is that movie with Robin Williams where he goes to hell to find his wife? I have no idea? What dreams? What dreams? And then the paint the paint sneers right, yeah, it's like or like yeah, which is kind of like the what's that Google deep dream? What Ai? It's like an AI tried to do us an asparagus or like

when you take a panorama and your dog runs through. Yeah, I love that, and then it gets all stretched out. It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's a it is. It is definitely a like you mentioned earlier glitch in the matrix moment, though, it gives you that sort of unsettling feeling of like, ah, this is I feel like this asparagus would be really hard to cook because like I feel like asparagus like they're like it takes a

while to like cook them all the way through, you know. Yeah, And I feel like this one would burn on the outside by the time you cooked. It looks like a like a piece of toast made out of asparagus. Asparagus. I bet it also makes your piece smell even weirder than normal. What if it makes a smell good action, that's great, Like we need to breed asparagus that whatever the gene that like make messes with your urine makes

it smell great. Who this had to be some dude being like, what does my pie smell like after I eat only asparagus for three days? You know what I mean? Like, sometimes not all scientists wear lab coats. Some are just dudes and bachelor pads, you know what I mean. Like I mean, I think like up until like the nineteen hundreds, most of science was some dude like drinking his own pea and seeing what life was like if he only

drank fluids and and put milk up his butthole. You know, we gave a man an entire career because he only ate McDonald's for a while, and we were like, sure, let's just see what that looks like this he like everybody nobody was like, dude, you should eat McDonald's for a long time, and he's like he just he just did it himself and then built a full career both in nutrition and an entertainment off of that. It's incredible. What when when Grimes just eats pasta for two years,

we call her a bad mother. And when I get an excessive amount of chocolate's like that's unhealthy. Okay, It's like, oh, I have to be on my period to eat a bunch of chocolate. But Morgan what's his face can eat a half emal for a year and that's like not a midlife crisis. The Funyan's diet isn't getting a movie deal? All right? Okay, fine, just another example of the patriarchy.

But uh so. Fasciation can be caused by a number of factors, including random genetic mutation, hormonal imbalance, viral infection, bacterial infection, chemical exposure, or parasites. But even in all of these cases, the method of action is the same. An abnormality occurs that affects the growing tip of the plant. So the growing tip is called the maris stem, which very much sounds like a little hobbit name or something

like Marris stem. Oh, I'm I'm stem and I'm going with you, Mr Frodo to to protect the shy and then he immediately gets eaten by a dragon or a ring write or something thing I like, growing stem is coming to borders near you. So yeah, the the Marris stem, it's a cluster of undifferentiated cells. In a typical plant, the marrow stem is a tidy little bump, but in fasciation it goes bananas and there's this spread of the Marris stem and thus a spread of cells that can

differentiate into new tissue. Uh So, uh sometimes we actually deliberately breed flowers that have the genetic mutation for fasciation, such as don't laugh Coxcomb I tried to keep really quiet. You did, you did, which I'm glad when I say, like, don't laugh now you take me seriously and don't actually laugh. I I tried really hard. It was like it's like a personal challenge, you know what I mean. Yeah, no,

I I saw, I saw just laughter trying to escape you. Definitely, my mouth just like yeah, clamped down, yeah, yeah, unlike And I have a coxcomb. So it's called a coxcomb because it looks like a rooster's comb, you know, a rooster, a cock. It's it's innocent. Fair So is this basically this is kind of like flower cancer right because it's but it's it's where is it not? It's so it's sort of like that. I would say, it's more like

flower tumor. Ish. It's like it's like you're still so the stem cells, the maristem of the plant having this uncontrolled duplication sort of like a tumor. Fortunately for the plant, it is a sustainable thing because it instead of being like a tumor where it's basically non functional tissue that you know, in malignant cases like steals your nutrients and does nothing good for you except you know, hurts you. In this case, it's just more of the plant, Like, hey,

there's just more of you. Enjoy that, which could be could be problematic in some cases, I presume, but sometimes it just works, like in coxcombs, where they just look I guess, like you know, the rooster comb, and people love that. People go nuts for it. They do look really cool. These are fun. They look like a little purses. Yeah, like fluffy little anemonies with Yeah, they do. They absolutely do look like an enemy's maybe with like a weird

tongue attached to them. I'm into it. I'm into coxlick. I like coxcomb. So in animals, when you have like an oopsy goofer with undifferentiated tissue, this can often lead to extra body parts, like supernumerary body parts, so like an extra body part can occur when you have an extra limb buds, So like in developing embryos, we have limb buds. It's kind of like the maristem of a plant, but instead of growing like a branch or flower, it

grows a limb like a leg or an arm. Uh. And oh this is making this is making more sense because like there are those stereotypes of in like some underdeveloped areas where the children experience this right where they have extra limbs or you know, are born with like a tail or something you know, like uh so, but if it's influenced by some environmental factors, that would make a lot of sense. Absolutely it can be. Yeah, it's something that can both be like a random genetic mutation

that's not necessarily environmental, but often it is environmental. And you see that both unfortunately in humans, but you also see it in frogs. So in areas where there's a lot of pollution, you can get frogs with extra legs. So like the intro to The Simpsons where we got the fish with three eyes. Yeah, certainly. I don't think three eyes is very common. It's usually like extra limbs that,

like multiple eye really unusual. I think like the sometimes the only times like you get a third eye in an animal or like a one eye or something is when you have like a twin that doesn't split correctly. So yeah, wow, but I don't interesting and I'm not exactly sure why, but I think it has something to do with the difference in how the eye develops versus a limb develops. And now we are the extent to which I know about um, but yeah, one question that I had that I looked into it was like, why

don't animals have fasciation? So why can't I just grow a mega arm that's like thick like that mega dandelion stem. Uh, And I would I would guess it has something to do with like the difference in growth of new tissue in a plant's mare stem versus animal stem cells. So like plant tissue is sort of more uh, it's kind of more regularly structured. So yeah, it's simpler. Yeah, and you have like so if you have you don't have

quite as many interacting organs. So like if you have an arm, you have like a bunch of veins and bones, and it's not all symmetrical inside your arm, Like your arm does not have any radial symmetry, whereas like a branch in a tree or or a stem or even like a flower pedal, there's a lot of symmetry even within each individual part of it. So if you have this uh, genetic anomaly where it's just like it's like okay, this but more of it, that will kind of work

out in the plant. That's why it's ironic that trees don't exist in Hollywood because it is so symmetrical, it should be able to make it in Hollywood, know what I mean. Symmetry is so important when you're casting a tree, like those trees and Wizard of Oz are really really unfair standards for trees, like no real trees look like that, No real trees look so um. There are really cool mutations though, in animals that have to do with the the like growing bud or limb bud and sometimes this

can actually work out great for animals. So uh, snakes evolutionarily speaking, used to have legs. Uh and there so their ancestors used to have legs. They didn't start out legless. The so you know that that meme that's like the first creature crawling out of the sea that people use all the time. This would be like, yeah, the would be in in reverse. Right, I'm tired of walking. This sucks, right, let me just ride my body against the right. They

don't use legs. They use their abdominal muscle contractions to smoothly glide along the ground. They have such a strong core. They really I'm I'm out here jealous of snakes cores. I'm jealous. I'm jealous of snakes and dolphins. Have you ever seen the abs on a dolphin? Oh wow, yeah, yeah, it's yeah, they do all that jumping out of water, that huge amount of core strength. So yeah, snakes and dolphins would laugh at your reps, just laugh. But yeah,

so uh yeah, snakes dropped the legs. They got a more flexible skeleton that allows them to engorge themselves with huge prey relative to their slender lot Boddie and h. The gene that controls limb growth is actually called the sonic hedgehog gene. Yeah, I'm familiar with this gene. Yeah, it's a fun one. It's a fun it's fun fun naming, you know. Sometimes you just gotta have fun with genes. Yeah, like too many of these like z A B two forty seven, blah blah blah, just call like sonic calle,

like Mario do a? Do you a bowser gene? You know? Is that the gene for like where it's supposed to be Italian but it's not. Yes that the Mario Chris Pratt apparently has the Mario gene. Not really. I think here's the thing I think everybody. I think people want contradictory things from scientists. I think they want them to be less uptight, but then when they are, they're like, you're supposed to be the serious person in our society, and they judge them for it. Yeah. Yeah, people really

knew that scientists were just like human and chill. I think I feel like that they would they should be able to relate to them more. But then they it also concerns them. They're like, oh, these are people and

we're putting all this responsibility on Yeah. I think, yeah, I think understanding that scientists are not just aliens that don't aren't able to understand a social environment like outside of a lab is would be nice, a nice trope to get rid of, because yeah, I agree, like people like this thing that this is a little bit of a tangent. Sorry everyone, please don't give me a bad

review for tangents. But um, they're like I remember when scientists were doing this like bird research on a bird calls, and a lot of people are like like uh, and it was there's some big controversy about like, oh, you're you're spinning all this time, like researching ward calls, and like that's that's so, you know, like you're supposed to be doing real science. It's like, yeah, they did this with like they did this with like beetle shells or something.

They're like I remember every once in a while, something on Twitter or somebody you know will say something that's like like, I can't believe scientists are wasting their time and money on this thing instead of doing this thing. And it's like you aren't a scientist and have no idea the importance or the context of what they're studying. And also science is just studying the world, so it's still science even if you d prioritize it as necessary

for you. And everything is connected. Oops, I said everything is connected, right, Like every like the Beatles shell will like help with the design of cars, and like you know what I mean, like everything is related. Um, but I don't think people understand that. Yeah, I mean most of our medical and technological advancements are based on scientific research that you know, many many years of scientific research that may not have that much apparently in common with

the end result of the research. But yeah, I mean, like if we didn't like look at, you know, mouse turds once in a while, we would probably not have most of medicine. Uh, but we do that just for fun. It's fun. Through mouse turds. Don't do it, don't get haunt of virus. That yeah, sonic hedgehog gene. It's actually Sonic hedgehog I think is the name, not Sonic the Hedgehog science stupid sciences, But it's called that because of

its spiky appearance. And apparently one of the researchers who discovered it had a daughter with a Sonic the Hedgehog comic book, so that's cute like that. So a mutation occurred in snakes that basically deleted activators for the sonic hedgehog gene responsible for leg growth, but that gene for legs is still technically there. Uh, it's just that the activators that would switch that gene on are are not there.

So basically, when snakes start to develop as an embryo, they start to like develop these little legs and then they're like no, no, not just kidding, just kidding, No legs for me, thank you? Oh weird? What do you think? Like the first nake came out and was just like, what the fuck are you kidding me? My whole family has legs, and I have like I can't even go to the grocery store with them because they don't know how to handle me. Yeah, it's just like high five.

That is so insensitive. Uh, I mean I think that uh, ruining your joke and taking it seriously. Uh, the first snakes probably came from these lizards that have basically just little nubs for legs, so the legs get kind of smaller, more useless. And uh, I want I want everyone on Twitter to take a moment and acknowledge what you just said,

ruining your joke and taking it seriously. Can you put that at the front of every reply you send me on Twitter, just people of Twitter, where you name this podcast, ruining your joke by taking seriously? Yeah, this is uh, you know, this is why I have comedians on the podcast about science, so I can just be like, well, actually you make a funny joke, but scientifically speaking, but yeah, no, this is me at a party. I have so many friends,

so many friends. Um, but yeah, so so they did, Like there are a lot of these sort of transitional species. You could look at it and they're not necessarily direct ancestors of the snakes, but when you you can see like where you can see where they're coming from, Like they there are these lizards that have these very teeny tiny, nubby legs that uh, they don't really use that much. And then probably one of them just kind of had a gene deletion of these legs. And it's like, this

is fine. I'm fine with this. You know what, I need your legs, all right. One day someone's gonna compare me to Taylor Swift. Okay, you know what, this is pretty great, Like you have your little legs and that's fine. I don't judge you, but I don't actually need them. So, you know, snakes are officially like that person who doesn't have a TV. And you know that they don't have a TV because they tell you about how much they don't watch TV all the time. Yeah, it's like, yeah,

I mean TVs, like we get it. You read yeah, okay, uh yeah, So snakes are out there like I don't need legs. And actually I read Lussies and I thought it was easy to read. They reads OLIVI do you want to talk about lobsters? Obviously that's why I came here. It's it's Lobster Wednesdays. Everybody gets your bib on and get ready to enjoy some sun about lobsters. So lobsters

we love them, We love to eat them. Uh, they're the cute little sort of Arthur pods the sea and there they can have some really interesting and uh like very fake looking genetic mix ups. So lobsters can have a very rare mutation where they are bright blue instead of brown. Now, just a quick reminder, lobsters in the ocean aren't red. That's after you boil them as they scream for mercy. Uh, they turn red. Oh my god,

but they're they're brown. I didn't even realize that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, like, you know, it's some some chemical change happens that I certainly know about chemistry. I'm so good at chemistry. But yeah, it's when you boil them they turn bright red. But in the ocean there's sort of a muddy brown, all of kind of color. Uh. And you know, but yes, sometimes they are bright bright blue, like you know, I don't know how to describe this blue. Yes, yes,

this is this is a great wait, bust blue. What did you say, I said, I I said best by, But yeah, it might also be what is it megabus blue? I don't know, I don't know, you know the blue that it's the it's it's the blue of the nineties that all the companies use. No, it's it's more the blue of the early two thousand's where everyone decided blue is the good color for stores in general, Walmart blue, Best Buy blue. Uh, you know cool Ranch, Derito's blue.

It's it's bright, artificial looking blue. And uh, this is said to be like a one in a million chance. I wonder how this affects like they're how like predators view them, and like how they're able to get away from things. You know. Yeah, that's a good question because with animals who have albin ism, we know, typically it's a bad thing because it makes them a lot easier to spot, so they don't typically survive as well. So like albino squirrels often get picked off. Unfortunately, the same

thing with that. I've never seen an albino squirrel. I've seen so many squirrels in my lifetime get picked off by hawks pretty good. I mean, it's why melanistic squirrels black squirrels are much more common than albino squirrels because melanistic squirrels it's not so bad for them because you know, they're they don't just like stand out like someone highlighted them on, like, you know, this is like reverse white privilege. This is what this is the only context, and yeah,

this is the squirrels of color are given an advantage. Yeah, this is yeah. And yes, I know albinism can happen to squirrels of colors. But yeah, that's a great question. I don't know. I think that the lobsters are so rare and they're typically only found during like commercial lobster fishing, so I don't know like what that does for their survival rates. I would imagine because it's blue and the

oceans kind of blue, maybe it's okay. It's a very unscientific statement, but you know, it's like I think maybe it's okay in any context is also a very uncientific statement, given just a state of everything. I love reading a paper in like the New England Journal of Medicine and they're like, you know, smoking marijuana. I think maybe it's okay. Maybe it's okay, bro. I don't know, dude, But blue lobsters are not the only weird mutation that lobsters have.

They can also be bright orange, which is interesting because when they're bright orange, they kind of look like the color of a cooked lobster, but they're not. So it's also a very rare mutation. You're not going to see it typically, but they will be. It's that's like them trying to hide before we cook them. They're like, no, no, we're already cooking. Yeah, you don't out of throw me

in the pot. Yeah, but you know that's another protein mutation that happens that gives them this bright orange coloration, as is the blue coloration a protein mutation. But the

this is not even as wild as lobsters get. Uh, they sometimes will look half and half, so they literally look like you plopped a lobster and photoshop and like selected exactly half of the lobster and changed the hue down the middle, Yes, straight down in the middle, one side being blue and one side being brown, or even one side being orange and one side being brown or blue. It's it doesn't look like it literally looks. It literally looks like somebody laid painter's tape. But that line is

so clean all the way down. It's wild jealous of these clean lines, just like I've never been able to painting doing my nails. No, it's always always there's always a point of like a bubble in the tape where you peel it and then there's just like a little imperfection. You're like yeah, and you're like, you know, who's the best nail artist? Lobsters? Same thing, same thing, same thing is a lobster. Uh So yeah, and it not only looks mind blowing, but the explanation for it is also

really interesting. So uh. Most animals have some form of symmetry. Some animals have radial symmetry, like a sea urchin or a starfish, and some animals like humans and most mammals and fish and lobsters have bilateral symmetry. So we each have you know, uh, you know, half of our body

is relatively a mirror image of the other half. But if something goes wrong, as the cells are splitting when you're a blast assist developing into an embryo, uh, or even a mistake when the chromosomes are dividing, you can have an animal split down the middle with two different colors and even two different sexes. So most two toned lobsters are actually also gynandromorphs, So each side of the lobster is a different sex So one side has testes

and the other has ovaries. So during early development and during cell division or mitosis and air occurs where the sex chromosomes don't split properly, so you have literally one half is female and one half is male, and then they're different colors. Uh, not necessarily, so male and female lobsters aren't really different colors typically, but you can have because one half has a different genome than the other half, you could have a color mutation one half and not

in the other half. And so that's how you get these like incredibly rare. Not only do they have a color mutation, but they also have uh guyn andromorph mutation. Can Andrew morph? Was that children's book series we read as kids, that series. It's I did it for the flip book though of the lobsters. So actually, last episode we talked a little bit about how sex determination works and how it can be different depending on the animals.

So not all animals are x Y like humans. So you know, as humans you have like the x Y chromosomes and x x and x y, but there there are a lot of different variations in humans that can happen, uh, and then in other animals that can be even like like completely different systems like x oh where Uh, females will have x X and males will have You tell

me there's a tic tac toe animals. There's tic tac toe animals, some shrews, low spiders playing tic tac toe much more much, which is the most fun kind of sex system, I think. Uh so, if anyways, he's different. There's also z W system and chickens, and well not just chickens, I guess other birds too, but you know, when you think bird, you think chicken. And actually the z W system is kind of the mirror of X Y system, because a female will have z W and a male will have z Z and they actually can

have because males are boring. Wait, but that would mean females are boring in other species. No, because we're not z Z thing. I see, I get it. I am so. I I appreciate comedy. I'm a comedy appreciator. Uh so, yeah, And actually chickens can have interest things happen with their sex determination system, where uh, males can like become females. Uh And so there's a lot there's a lot of

cool shenanigans. If anyone tries to sell you the idea that sex determination and chromosomes is simple, they're wrong, they're uh yeah boom uh. So basically, what can happen during cell dicivision. Let's take for example, the XO system XO XO kiss kiss kiss um, where they say the cell split and one cell gets two X chromosomes and then

the other cell only gets one X chromosome. Then, in like a spider or a shrew or one of these these creatures that have the XO system, one of them's uh there, there's gonna be one organism where half is male and half is female. And so this is actually what can happen in butterflies. And when it happens in butterflies, it's very striking. So now we're talking about color different

differences in two sides. That's not just because of some interesting mutation like in lobsters where you have both gynandromorph gynandromorphy and you have this color mutation. But in butterflies, it's that male and female butterflies have different coloration even when the typical sexual reproduction happens. So in a gynandromorph, one half of the butterfly is male and has a very different wing shape and color, and the other half this female, and so not only are their wings different colors,

but they can be different shapes and sizes. It looks like some psychopath cut butterflies in half and then glued them back together. Um, God, sad about this hypothetical situation. It like there's no way they can. They're flying in circles, right, Like the wings are totally different sizes. They're probably not flying great. It's probably not a probably not the best flyers, no, yeah, because one side is like way bigger than the other. Yeah. Yeah.

And some species like where there's not as much sexual dimorphism, that is, like there's not that as much difference between

males and females. They probably function all right in terms of flying, but yeah, some of them, the difference is very dramatic where the female is a lot smaller than the male, or vice versa, and or the male like sometimes you know, butterflies have those big those tails on it, so like you have butterfly wing shape and then you have sort of this tear drop shape coming off of the bottom of the wing, and that's a that's like a swallow tail. Butterfly has those, but it is only

in one sex. So when you have a gynandromorphe one of the sides has that little tail and the other doesn't, which is gonna make it real tricky for the butterfly. So you have a good time flying, I guess the butterflies like, um, okay, rest of the family, y'all go out further for flowers and whatnot, and I'm just gonna hang around in this circle like I'll just be at home base. Yeah. Yeah, it's uh, it's it's like one side of the butterfly is telling the other side of

the butterfly. Did you ask for directions? No, I'm not going to ask get it, get it. It's it's at it. I gotta explain something to the zoomers. Back in the day, we used to have this joke where like men would never ask for directions. Um, and that was this is in dinosaur times actually when we have this joke, so all the dinosaurs at Jurassic Park would ask for directions.

And then it's like like one dinosaur is like you gotta You've gotta ask for directions, and it's like I don't know, like I'll uh find a way MS park reference. I feel like I'm wrap please every every word I say. Another zoomer just like clicks pause and puts down. Al Right, I think I think this episode is just as referential as ulysses. Wow, that was that was so referential. To being referential, I hurt in my brain. We're gonna take

a quick break. So sometimes when we talk about mutations, uh, people get this idea that mutations are either good for organism or bad. So, like it's often the topic of conversation when we're talking about like COVID, like, oh, it has a mutation, this must mean it's now like a superpowered virus. But mutations are not intrinsically good or bad.

They're just a mutation, and whether or not it turns out to be beneficial or bad for the organism, it just depends on the selective pressures that the organism is

operating in. So sometimes these color mutations can in like these interesting uh little genetic whoopsie doodles, can be maybe negative, like we talked about the butterfly being half male and half female and one side if the male and female of that species have significant difference in size, they'll be a little opsided and maybe flying circles a little bit. But sometimes color mutations can completely shape the course of history. For better or worse. So this one cool, weird eye

trick may have changed the course of human history. Doctors hate it. So most primates have dark sclera, so that's the eye tissue surrounding the iris is but in humans this tissue is white or kind of off white. And some research seems to indicate that by having this bright white ish sclera, humans are better able to track eye movement and gaze in each other. And some anthropologists have a hypothesis that human cooperation and evolution was shaped by

our ability to see each other's gaze. And so this is called the cooperative gaze hypothesis, which is like you know, like when you're with which is like just June, right, it's a bunch of cooperative gays. Uh see, I got that one. I'm getting faster with it. But you know, like when you're with someone and you can't like say something out loud to them, but you're using your family reunion weddings, right, You're like judging people. You're like, who's

that at the at stand up shows? Right, You're like this is terrible, but with your eyes right, and like all the zoomers who are left still listening to the show, Like when you roll your eyes. If you didn't have a white sclera, like, your parents would never know that you hate them, which it's really important. They wouldn't get the full sense of your disdain, which would really be a tragedy. Part of phood, right, you have to let

them know that they're being so uncool right now. But yeah, So, human babies follow eye gaze much more than primates, and the ability to follow each other's gaze may have helped human in collaboration or things like determining intent. So seeing where someone's eye gazes can really help you understand like what are they looking at? What are the focused on? Are they looking at me or something else? Like are

they looking at the thing I have? So it can both be protective for you, like of understanding, Okay, what

is this person interested in? And it can also help you cooperate because like, if they keep looking at something that's in your hands, it's like, oh, they may want to see this, or they may want this, and so I can figure out what someone wants before we even maybe had language, So you know, having that sort of non verbal accessory to communication may have been really really helpful in our early development as a highly social species. And uh it may have even helped our relationship with dogs,

which we co evolved with uh since very early history. Uh. You know dogs used to be they had like a wolf like ancestor, and they started to catch on that. Hey, if I actually cue an Instagram wruble, I could have a real qushy lifestyle next to humans. Unfortunately, they didn't know like the extent to our obsession with making them look real weird and cute. Uh and like breeding them until they basically can't They can't breathe and they look

like a loaf of bread with eyeballs. But anyways, Uh yeah, so dogs are able to follow our eye gays almost as well as human infants. So having eyes that are so easy to follow, dogs may have co evolved with us, and we're better able to understand where our attention was and able to cooperate with us. So if you've ever wondered, like why your dog is so uncannily attuned to like what you're looking at or or what you're interested in, part of it could be that your dog is following

your eye gays. Now, my dog, I think needs dog glasses. Her vision is not very good, so I can point at a slice of cheese, and she goes like wandering off like two feet away from the cheese. And so I don't think she's noticing my eye movements as much at all, although my dog, I think this might. I don't know. I feel like maybe we're at the point where we're wearing masks so much that our dogs are

even more tuned into our eyes. Because now when I put in Now, when I put on a mask or go to like I use paper towels to like open the door knobs and stuff. She she um just because people a building or gross, no kidding, um she uh. She literally, she like starts freaking out immediately, like she's very tuned into when I start moving. It's all like embarrassing to Like when I put on pants, she freaks out, which is like how much I don't wear pants in

my apartment. She's like, Oh, we're going outside. Now, were you putting on pants? Ye, code pants, You're wearing a broad pants. Something's happening, Something's happening. That's how my dog is when I put on shoes, because it's it's a fifty gamble for her. It could mean I'm going outside with her or leaving forever forever and neglecting her for

an eternity, So I get it. Yeah, so she has this expression of like dread and excitement that is really pathetic and hard hard to watch honestly, But I like that you just called your dog pathetic. I mean, somebody kept me up all night whining about I don't know,

I have no idea what freaked her out on. But imagine how anxious you would be if the person you loved most in the world would just randomly leave at times that you didn't understand end and you had no idea if they were coming back it would be And this is the person that you love most and are also dependent on for food and shelter. I mean, I get really sweaty palms if I'm left on red for

like two minutes. So oh yeah, I'm probably not want to judge, but yeah, so so are the whites of our eyes are really important maybe for even communicating with dogs, and uh, you know, we know how important dogs have been for our history and helping us with livestock and agriculture and hunting, and so just this one cool little genetic thing that happened with the sclera being white may

have had this like huge effect on evolution. Ah, and in fact, you actually can get primates who have this mutation. So there's this picture of a chimpanzee with the white sclera, and it's a little uncanny because that first time you look at it, you're like, oh, yeah, that's a chimpanzee, and then you're like, it's this is it's a little it's like an uncanny valley thing of like, this is a little more human like than I'm used to seeing, Like in the next Oh my god, I didn't even

realize that that was that's crazy. I had to look up what a chimpanzee normally looks like in order to remember that they didn't have the black in the eyes. Is this? Oh is this? What's the ape world movie? Planet of the Apes? Did they do that in Planet of the Apes? A good question. Planet, Yeah, they have white,

they have sclera. They have white white sclera. That that's what gave them more human expressions, right right, Yeah, that's a that's a good point because he looks the one the picture here looks like the main character from Rise of the Planet of the Apes. Yeah. I mean, for all we know, he could be um just retired now, but like you know, I think that, yeah, because that's the case in a lot of like maybe that's why

the Lion King live action thing was really lifeless. Did they put whites in the eyes of the animals in that movie or live action? Three D King? Live action? Well they called it the live action ones, but it's none of it. I don't think they did. I see. I think that was a mistake. Yeah, definitely. It definitely feels more human when they have the whites of the eyes, right, that's crazy. Yeah, I really just thought that's what chimps look like. I was like, why is this? Is this

just a funny picture? Katie included thing that's so wild? How frequent is this is this mutation? It's very rare, and it doesn't seem to actually like catch on. It's not none of the chimps are really having it that it's not a which I think is what's interesting about it is that you think, like, oh, this is really helpful and humans potentially, but it hasn't really taken hold. It hasn't taken the chimp world by storm. And so it's because I mean, when we think about chimpanzees, they're

not our ancestors. They are a cousin of ours like on the evolutionary tree. And so the idea that like, oh, chimpanzees are just like a hop, skip and a jump away from evolving into humans is not really true because primates like chimpanzees do not have the same use for tracking eye gaze as early humans may have had. Uh So, in fact, like there may be a detriment to having that.

I like, you may not be able to be as sneaky, like if you if it's hard to see where your gaze is, it's hard to see like where you're looking at, and maybe it's makes it a little easier to be sneaky, like if you see some food and you want to grab it or something. Wait, so I'm reading up of lowland gorillas possessed some degree of depigmentation, with eleven point five percent of averted gazing eyes showing a completely white scal sclera a lot of human Well, but this is

like this probably is from a sample of something. Um that's just like a quick there's no way there, yeah, there's well, this isn't guerrillas, but it's probably a specific type of gorilla like lowland versus mountains. And also I just like I literally was just googling it, so I don't have the context at all, but it seems like western Lowland and mountain gorilla faces were acquired. That's interesting.

I wonder if, like they have in their populations, they have a specific kind of selective pressure that makes it more beneficial for them to have be able to better track their I gaze. Yeah, and it also is related to direct says averted gazes or something. It looks like that's this is so interesting. I'm fascinated by that, just like gorillas with whites in their eyes, and it's uh, I don't know, it's intense. It's an intense it really is.

Once you it's like the yel ship bricks. When you see it, like when you realize that that's not normal, you're like, oh my gosh. It actually brings me to an article that says the scientific reason the Internet wants to bang this handsome gorilla, Oh my god, and it's they break it down into the fact that the uh sclera are white or something. Yeah, okay, I mean I guess so it looks more human. I guess it makes gorillas sexier. All right, that's that's far. Japanese women go

ape over surprisingly handsome gorilla. This is from this is how, this is how how desperate women are kidding. I'll check this zoo. It's a. It's a. It's a bad sign for bumble and tinder if people are just like pulling up the zop Jesus. They made a pillow in the shape of shabani for women to sleep with, so I know to avoid it. What's the address? Well, this was Japan Times. It was like an article about it. But send me the links so I know never to go there.

You're like, yeah, send me the link. I don't want to go there. I'm not going to get a body pillow. How much does it cost? Um? Yeah, but in a catered species in the canines like wild wolves coyote as you can actually see as their eyes become have a higher um contrast between their pupils and the rest of their eyes. Is it tracts with the more social species.

So wild wolves and coyotes are both highly social. They form packs, a lot of their survival depends on how well they work as a team, and they actually have much higher contrast eyes between their pupils and their irises, which it's a similar function as the sclera. So instead of having a white sclera like humans, they'll have like a light yellow iris in a in a black pupil,

so their eye movement can be tracked. And among the canid species, wolves and coyotes are the most social and cooperative and so more solitary canids like you know, wild dogs will have lower contrast eyes. That's so, that's so wild that dogs are the less social, like not not

not like domesticated dogs. Yeah yeah, but like what but what are what are our domesticated dogs descendants from wolves or from the wild dogs ancestor, But wild dogs aren't as closely related to domesticated dogs as it depends on the type of wild dogs. So there are some highly social wild dogs, and some wild dogs may actually come from very early domesticated dogs. It's unclear, like dingoes maybe came from early early domesticated dogs. Wild dogs look crazy,

like they look so weird. They look like they have like these big circular ears, like huge circular ears compared

to their face and there there. Yeah, and their face looks like almost like hyena, like you know, like the hyenas often but they're another example of like canad because wild dogs do actually like the African wild dog uh does is pretty social because like they do have somewhat high contrasting eyes, maybe not as much as wolves and coyotes, but some other examples of like of canids that are not that social. Foxes aren't as social. Main wolves aren't

as social. They will not necessarily have as high contrast of an eye as wolves. A really wild looking canaid species is the short eared dog. It does not look like you would expect a canine to. Look what did you say? Maned wolves? Main wolves are one of the one of the canaid species. Uh, they're they're wild looking, they have really long legs, stunt and then oh yeah, those are the weird the weird legged ones. And what was the one you just said to have that short

short eared dogs? Just just google Google and image of short ear done. I'm like looking up all of these. Oh my gosh, what what is that? It is not related? Not this is an example of a wild Canada who is not at all related to domesticated dogs. So this is a u. I think this is the South American uh candid species, and I think actually pretty, it's like a pretty primitive species of Canada. But yeah they are, they're pretty. They're mixed with like a with a pig

or something, yeah, or like a or like an ant eater. Yeah, yeah, they're they're they're funny looking. But you if you look at their eyes, you can see it's like you cannot really see the pupil out well. They also there aren't that many pictures of them either. Yeah, they're they're very rare. They're hard to spot, very elusive, very interesting to see

how that tracks. And I wonder, like and dogs, like even in sort of domesticated dogs, whether that affects because like domesticated dogs have all sorts of different eye colors. My dog has like brown eyes that almost like perfectly blend with her pupils. It's really hard to see her pupils unless you're like really staring deep into her eyes like I do every day. Um, but I wonder because she does not have a good relationship with other dogs.

I mean, part of that is she was attacked by a couple of dogs and so she's just like she's done. Um but I wonder if part of her, like because she seems to have trouble with other dogs, even friendly ones. And I wonder if like dogs with eyes that where their eye gaze is harder to track. I wonder if they ever have more problems socializing with other dogs because the other dog can't read their body languages, which I don't want my dog compassed right here. Who, I just

woke up from a nap. I'm sorry. Her eyes are very dark and she also doesn't interact with other dogs very much. But it's because she's more scared, I think, you know. No, Yeah, Cookie is also scared. So we have a sample size of two, which, as we know, it to draw conclusions poppies science. Yeah, but I don't know, because I I I should probably have looked into this before I started recording him, just like maybe it's like this, and maybe it's like this and I love science. Uh

but yeah, because we do. We do sound like Twitter, right, I know, I know, just wild conjecture with no evidence, just like I wonder if it's like this, but it you know, I mean, because dogs use each other's body language a lot, I think, much more than like facial expression, other than like say, they're when they snarl and they flash those white teeth, that's easy to see and that's an easy expression in their ear position, but they also

look at each other's like body posture tail position like there, whether their hair is up or down, just their overall body language. It really helps dogs to communicate. But I really do wonder about the eye gaze thing. I'm gonna look into that wild how attentive um dogs are to body language and how lacking men at clubs are language. So like if you say, say, like men are dogs, that would actually be a compliment because and they would be like really paying attention to you and really toil

and yeah, like like you're you're a dog. But that's good because like you're paying attention to the cues I'm throwing out there. So, uh, before we go, I have to reveal the answer to last week's mystery animal sound game, which is a new thing I'm doing. And I've been on the show before season three. Um wait season yeah, season three. Don't worry, guys, I got this podcast in control.

And so every week I am playing a mystery animal sound and people can guess from home, ask their coworkers, their family, uh, call up your local library and try to find out who is making that animal sound. So first I want to reveal the answer to last week's sound. So who do you think is talking there? Well, now, that I've seen a shortier dog that sounds like something weird. That dog, it just sounds like so when screaming with their jaw like all the way open. Yeah, yeah, that's

how I wake up every morning. Actually, I just like from deep slumber into the existential dread. Yes, So the answer is actually the New Guineas Singing Dog. Congratulations to everyone who gets the right answer. There is actually a bit of a tie this week's We have four winners. That is Shana, Jared Miller, Michael Daniels, and Instagram user open Road before me. Great job you guys, great guesses.

So the New Guinea Singing Dog is a dog that looks similar to a dingo, but is considered to be a breed of domesticated dog and not its own species. Oh my god, New Guinea singing Dog. It looks like a dingo, but it's not a dingo, and it's so cute, very cute. Uh. It has this really haunting call. It's one of the rarest breeds of dogs in the world, with an ancient lineage. It was in fact once thought to be a separate species of canad but they are in fact a breed of dog that has a segment

of its population, living fairly and often there. They like live cohabitate with humans, and instead of having a single owner, they live like in a village amongst humans um and so their howl, unlike other like wolf or doghowls, utilizes a pulsed, high frequency trill, which gives it that like rattling sound, like it's about to eat your face in a monster movie. That's wild. So onto our new mystery animal sound of the weak. Uh. Here is a hint.

This may sound like a machine gun, but unless you're an insect, the only thing you'll really have to worry about is getting smacked in the face by its enormous tail, which is I guess a kind of specific hint. I hope it's helpful. Anyways, here's the sound. Well, that's my dog gets you. That sound, that's that's my dog Cookie. It's okay, I wasn't talking about you behind your back. I wasn't. I was okay, here we go. Nice. That definitely sounded like a machine gun. So if it's a

machine gun, it's definitely American. And it's some kind of animal. That's that's another hint. Incredible, Yeah, it's it's not a gun. And it kind of sounds a little bit like not just like a gun, but like a computer game gun, you know what I mean. Yeah, we're like cartoony. Yeah yeah, do you have any guests this Polo? Oh? And he said it's so it has a tail. I'm sort of so is it some sort of lizard? That doesn't make sense? I don't know why I said that that makes a

machine gun sound, that has a tail. I have no idea. I have no idea. Well, you can find out next week or maybe I'll tell you after the show, but you have to get a secret. Okay, okay, okay, next Wednesday, I'll reveal the answer. And if you think you the listener, think you may have an idea, a gift, or even if you have a question or a picture of your pet, you can write to me at Creature feature Pot at gmail dot com, Creature feature Pot on Instagram, I'm creat

your feet pot on Twitter. That's eighteenth that is something very different plan. Where can the people find you? I'm at Polo Vignal and everywhere. P A l l A v I g U n A l A N. That's on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, I'm on clubhouse now I do shows on Clubhouse. But yeah, just check me out. I put my my shows up on my website pologanland dot com. Check it out. It's very funny. And you'll never know it though, because I'm gonna edit her out and pretend like all of her jokes. Uh. And yeah, you can

find me on Twitter at Katie Golden um. And let's see what else do I do at the end of these shows? Oh yeah, Uh, if you enjoyed the show and you want to give me a rating review, I really appreciate that. That really does help with the robots that go through the algorithm and they're like, hey, this show is good. Uh. And I read all of them and I really appreciate them. I mean, it warms my heart to see your feedback, even when you're like, hey, stop stop talking about how much you like to eat pizza.

We get it. Uh. And thank you to the Space Classics for their super awesome song Exo Alumina. Creature features a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or Hey guess what anywhere anywhere you listen to podcasts, I don't judge you. I'm not the podcast police. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not watching you from the darkness. See you next Wednesday by