Imagination Station

a broom for a butt? So? What is imagination? I know that I sound like I'm about to start singing a song about imagination, but I'm not. Imagination can mean a number of things. It can mean your ability to invent things or new concepts. It can be the mental pictures you pre deuced in your brain, something that, as we'll discuss later, is not as straightforward as it seems. There's the childlike imagination of having imaginary friends, or the imagination it takes to create a work of art. One

thing's for sure. Imagination is what separates the brilliant human mind from the animals. Or is it? You know me better? By now We're about to talk about how I smug humans aren't as unique as we thought. Joining me to talk about imagination is comic artist and author of The Red Dot Kim Winder. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm like super excited about our topic. Actually,

it's like right in my lane. Yeah. I I sometimes when I'm writing notes, I've kind of tried to think about what my guests might want to talk about, and I've been reading your comics, and yeah, they're very imaginative. I think that's kind of a big thing about being a comic artist is thinking of making connections that you don't normally make and then drawing down. Well, I appreciate it. So I what I lack an actual talent, I'll make up for imagination. I guess you're being too hard on yourself,

but yeah, it's I think. I think that's one of the things that makes that makes us feel human is having that imagination, being able to creatively apply our ideas in art, in comedy, in comics and movies. But I do kind of want to talk about how we're not unique in the animal kingdom in terms of being able to have an imagination. Now, I'm not sure that any animals have learned to do comic artistry. So you're safe right now in terms of like goodness. Yeah, like pigeons

taking over your job. I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. But unlike for me a podcaster, I believe that time is not I mean, birds can already talk, so you know, oh yeah, no, my dog would be all over the podcast industry. Oh yeah, I mean my dog would be all over my face, say, on the podcast industry, and just like breathing heavily into the mic. And you know what, I bet it'd be more successful than me. You know what. Dogs just have that that advantage,

so I can't argue with it, that natural charisma. Yeah, maybe I should start a new podcast called dog Sounds. But anyways, until then, let's talk about animals imaginations. So, in the strictest sense, we already know that rats have been absolutely proven to have an imagination. Measurements of their brain activity shows them planning out roots through mazes, both wild conscious or wild dreaming. So we know that animals can imagine things like they can conceptualize things like rat

is thinking of going through maze. It's gone through a maze before. Researchers have measured the brain activity, found a pattern, and then you see that rat is repeating that pattern when it's not in the maze, so it's it's thinking about being in the maze so it can remember and adapt next time it's put to it. Precisely. Yeah, that's kind of understandable that animals would be able to do

at last, at least that. But when we think about imagination, we think of more than just remembering things in locations and um actually coming up with new things. Were being able to think in a kind of symbolic manner. And in fact, I think that one of the most compelling cases of imagination and animals is in primates, and I think it's through a variety of observational research. It's pretty clear to me at least that primates definitely have an

imagination that's close to what humans have. So researchers observed a juvenile chimpanzee named Kakama pick up a log and carry it around, treating it like a baby. He made a nest for it and cared for it, and the researchers called it Kacama's toy baby, just as log that he's using as like a baby chimpanzee doll. That must have been the cutest log, like adorable, chubby cheeked log, exactly, the softest log ever. Yeah, it's got like two stick

arms and face made out of knots and roots. Yeah, it's it is, I don't know, it's like that's a behavior you would see in a child picking up a toy and loving it like a baby doll, and then to see it in a chimpanzee is I don't know, it's almost spooky in a way to see how similar that is, right, Like it makes sense because what else is the primary going to do besides just sit there and wait to eat, sleep. Yeah that so to keep

itself entertained. Just personifying object that that is really interesting. Yeah, or chimpanzonify, chimpify an object. I'm for it, just don't ask me to spoil it. Also, a benobo named Kanzi has been studied by primatologists extensively, and this is a pretty remarkable individual. So Kanzi was in a research program that tried to teach primates lexigram language, so that symbols used to represent whole words. Okay, like uh, patrical epics,

but yeah yeah, okay, um like hieroglyphics. Yeah, exactly. When they were trying to teach Kanzi's mother, like she wasn't interested at all, she wasn't really taking to it. But Conzi was there just accompanying the mother because like they don't want to be separated. That would stress them, so the researchers would keep them together. You can't just give them a log and here's your here's your replacement with

your substitute log for your baby. But actually Kanzi picked up on the lessons even though he wasn't being explicitly taught, and he was able to learn how to use the lexigrams to communicate in limited ways. So when he here's a spoken word, he can actually point to the correct alexagram. And he can also use this like alexagram to do novel things, So the researchers will point to alexagrams as

a command. So like like feed the ball some tomato, which doesn't really make that much sense, but when he sees it, he like picked up a ball shaped object and tried to feed it tomato, which is something. Actually they tested it him up against a toddler and the toddler didn't know what to do with that. But smarter than a toddler. There you go. So okay, hold on, if if he can do that and he has thumbs, he just needs to get an iPad and he can start his own comics. So honestly, not too good right

now is for Kim today? Yeah, I mean he's close. He's getting close because he knows what symbols are exactly. He oh and actually he's he knows how to use tools too, So he was able to be taught how

to create stone flakes. So that's sharp edges of a rock that have been split off, like flaked off, and then that sharp edge is used in like I mean, it was used by prehistoric humans and a lot of things and human ancestors and Neanderthals to create tools and as basically as these very simple knives, and like he was taught how to do this in order to cut a rope to get a food reward, and he was

able to do it. Dang. Yeah, Okay, well, so we've armed the super intelligent bonobo with a knife, taught it how to use language. You know, next we'll give it an iPad and it'll just you know, I gotta watch my back. It's coming for you. But yeah, the reason I bring up Kanzi is not just to brag about how smart he is, but also to show how imagination works in a very smart animal. So Kanzi has been

observed playing make believe with imaginary objects. He will hide imaginary objects under blankets or leaves, and then he'll like later come back, lift up the blanket or leaf, take out the imaginary object and pretend like he's eating it, like it's this like a fake piece of food that he's hid in. There's cool. Yeah, which is something that I feel like I do when I'm watching cooking shows, like pretend like I've been really into the Great Bit

British Bake offf have you seen that. I've heard they're incredibly nice to each other. Sweet. Um. Usually know what you look for in reality TV, you look for people just viciously bullying each other. Um, but it is actually

very refreshing for them to just be nice. Yeah. Well, I can't sit and watch those things just because, like you're saying, I could have eaten an entire meal and oh my god, and I'm just salivating, pretending like one of they're delicious savory of Claire's is in my hands, like shoving it in my mouth somehow that doesn't make it better, but I think Zi has a better imagination than I do. And he will also take these so like he's hidden a fake berry under relief or something.

We don't know what it is. We can't read Conzie's mind, but he's hitting a fake piece of food under relief and then he takes it out and he's like playing with this imaginary thing, and then he'll like pretend to hand it to someone and then he'll watch what they do,

which really reminds me of what children do. Some of my cousins have have babies, and it's really fun to like they'll try to get you involved in like imagination things, and then they'll hand you something and you're like, I don't I don't know what to do with if I don't know what you want, and you can tell they want a specific thing, like they hand you a leaf and it's like that leaf is a race car and you will treat it as such or there will be consequences.

Oh yeah, No. My nephews he's four, so he's super into like the action figures, and we were playing with it off the couch and he pushed my action figure off the couch very rudely, but suddenly the couch turned into the most giant cliff ever, and then he burst into flames apparently at the bottom. Well that's what happens when you fall off a cliff generally. Yeah, that's what I get for not being a very strong superhero. So

your nephew killed your superhero. Um, yes, but then he brought him back and kissed him on the forehead, So well yeah, then that's fine. Yeah we made up. It burst into flames, you know, like burns all over his buddy, but a kiss on the forehead. That makes all better. The power of imagination, power of imagination, and heels all grievous wounds. Another instance of a primate showing incredible imagination was in a chimpanzee named Vicky, who was raised by

humans in a human home. Generally not recommended. I would say for chimpanzee, she would have these pull toys. So a pull toy is like a toy on wheel, like a wooden duck or horse that you pull along. I'm not really sure that that people have those anymore. I was thinking like a pool, as in swimming. Sorry, now that's just my weird, weird Southern Californian accent. It's a pole toy, a poll toy, much quainter and wakier than

a noodle, a pool noodle. I don't I do like the pool noodles, though they're fun to pretend like they're giant lightsaber. Yes, but she had she was pulling around. She would pull around these pole toys, and then she would also reportedly sometimes pretend to be pulling a toy

that is not there, like an invisible toy. She's dragging her hand behind her, pretending to pull it along, and then she would pause and like yank on it as if it's stuck somewhere, and sometimes even wait for her caretaker to come over and then like fix the the toy up before she kept going along. So it's a

really interesting case of this imaginative play. Yeah, that's and then making the caretaker get involved in the play, which is yeah, which is what we saw with Kanzi, who's a binobo, and this is a different this is a chimpanzee, and they both were trying to get human beings who to them are their you know, companions, because they're in

these artificial environments. They're trying to get them involved in the pretend play, which is something children do human children, And I find that really interesting because I think it the implication being that imaginative play has some kind of social aspect to it as well. Definitely. And yeah, and that's something we also share with bonobos and chimpanzees, is the high levels of socializing, and that's it's it's really interesting to see how they use that as a way

to communicate with humans. It's all going to regress though, when they get their own version of The Great bake Off and everyone just stays in their little caves watch Chimpanzee Netflix and like they're the Great Buonabo bake Off and it's just like, uh, just amount of poop that they like. And then they have like Hairy Bear, which is a judge for the Bonobo bake Off, and she's like it's like, oh, like, how we've we've constructed this poobcake. The flavor is quite very poopy. I would say, I

don't like your your use of leaves as decor. I want one of them, one of the judges to be a log and it's just over, that's the worst insult. But the log has voted you off. Yeah, but it's not just primates that seem to have some a way of visualizing the world through imagination. And I want to talk about sloth bears. First, I have to show you a picture of a soft bear, because they're very if you look, yeah, okay, they're really cute bears. They're smaller bears.

They weigh around a hundred to two hundred pounds, for which fore bears not up and they are native to India, Sri Lanka, and Nepaul. They live in rainforest, savannah, and grasslands, kind of a wide variety of habitat uh and they are kind of shaggy. They've got this black, shaggy fur. They've got a little white bibs strap around their chest,

and these these floppy shaggy ears. I think that kind of bear was the model for Blue from the Jungle, but interesting because it fits his character to like very laid back, kind of stoner vibe totally. Yeah. I mean they do amble along in a very light, kind of sauntering, lazy vibe, like in the way that I think Blue was animated that kind of like, you know, like a little loosey goosey kind of walk. They kind of flapped their paws on the ground in this sort of dopey way.

They actually are despite looking kind of dopey and goofy. They can run faster than a person can, and they can climb trees very efficiently. The yeah, which is like you can't it's hard to imagine blue like you know, four twenty blaze it and then suddenly climbing a tree. But that is what they do. Ate the last of doritos and after you he's gone that dorrito high now yeah, flame and hot cheetos energy that comes upon you. Yes,

very dangerous, but they have. The reason they're called sloth bears is they have really long claws like a sloth, which they can use in combat, but mostly it's used to dig up their favorite food, which is termites, ants and other insects. O mine too? Oh good? Yeah? You have protein common, Yeah, a lot of protein. You know. It's true that a lot of processed foods will have some insect parts in it because of factories and how

just stuff is. You know, like if you make bread and you gather a bunch of grain, chances are you're going to have insects in it. And at first that kind of disturbed me. Yeah, and now it's just like, hey, free protein. You know, well, my life was forever change when I found out like red velvet cupcakes because those were my favorite. The red comes from like a certain

beetle in the die. Yeah, red die. Okay. So there's there's a couple of different red dyes, and there's a red dye that does not come from insects, but there is another red dye that is is synthesized from I think a type of beetle. It like it sounds like it could be just an urban legend, like my mom wanted me to stop eating. Okay, I don't think it is. Actually, no, it's not. Okay. Yeah, So here's here's the straight up facts about insect die that I definitely did not google.

Just now. The it's a it's called a cocineal insect. I'm sure pronounced that good. Uh. The insect actually creates a carmenic acid that is used to deter predation. But that carminic, said, can also be used to make carmine die, which is a red dye, and carmine is used in food and lipstick. It's I guess it's natural red number four Okay, Uh, I can actually, so it's interesting for me,

red dye taste nasty. Now I'm not sure if it's this type of red die, but there is a of flavor of red dye, uh, and a lot of people can't taste it. Some people can taste it. I'm one of the unfortunate people who can taste it. So red velvet cupcakes, if it's made with that die taste like ass to me, it's well probably saving yourself for you know, those actual termites and beetles that are more healthier. Exactly the healthier the given me a beetle cupcake over redde

cupcake any day. But yeah, so these slock bears, we'll suck up termites and ants from their mounds. They actually have. One of the reasons they look so doofy and dope, they have really long lips, so their lower lip kind of protrudes, and they make this really loud sucking noise when vacuuming up the termines out of their mound, just

like that's how you know it's good. Yeah, yeah, And they'll use their long claws to dig up and then they suck and shove their nose in and snort and suck and sometimes they'll you know, suck on their paws, and there have been documented cases of them sucking on certain other things that sus that are is a little socially awkward for you. I mean, look, it's what would you do if you were stuck in a zoo all day? Exactly? Yeah? Not not not not do that, yeah, not explore the

possibilities of things. We just we satisfied our appetite. Appetite, Now we've got other appetites exactly like wash your hands saying. So, the reason I bring up sloth bears is that they actually have been researched about their ability to understand the connection between symbols and like imagining a certain food and

that actual food. So researchers have presented sloth bears with an assortment of two dimensional pictures that represent the food that they like, So meal worms, nuts, raisins, kibble, oranges, various like photos sort of simplified photos of these things, high definition that are on this two D thing, and they'll show it to the bear. The bear will look at it and like snort at the food that they want,

and then they will receive that food. So they were trained that when they like snort at it, then they get that food and that snorting behavior is associated with, like when they find a food that they want, they snort and snuffle off. I guess it up, just like they do with a yeah. And so zookeepers are hopeful that this will help them did determine like give the bears some more choice at at zoos, but like captive bears, especially because one of the problems with keeping animals at

zoos in captivity. Even if it's a really humane zoo like the San Diego Zoo where they are kept in really nice environment, it's still a lack of space. It's not ideal, and animals can get bored. And when they get bored and have a lack of stimulation and a lack of control over their environment, they can actually start doing these kind of O c D like behaviors. Now it's not I actually have O c D. It's not quite o c D, but it's a similar thing where

they do these compulsive repetitive behaviors like compulsive grooming. They'll like lick bald patches into their fur. But giving them control over their environment has shown to be effective in helping them in this way and making them less bored and making them more psychologically healthy. So giving them a choice in their food and their diet is thought to perhaps give them healthier um or giving giving them a better state of mind, keeping them in a better mood.

And it's really funny because these bears definitely have overall preferences for food, so they seem to prefer meal, worms, nuts, prunes, and raisins, which you know, makes those tasty stuff. And they all basically hate kibble and oranges. I'm just gonna say, like out of all of it, even the insects. Okay, yes, because their bears, and it exists in nature. Where do

we get kibble? Like, hey, we're just throwing well, I mean, you know that is it is an interesting thing to show that these animals will often prefer these fresh, natural foods versus kibble, and it is something to I guess note when we're keeping these wild animals in captivity, of like, it's kind of hard to keep them happy with just you know, kibble and stuff. You can't just give them sort of a tray of brown pellets and expect them

to necessarily be happy about it. Oh no, my dog, he's just everyday same thing, so excited, cannot wait until he has his dog food yeah, but he's also he's also domesticated dog. Yeah, well, I mean and also I mean my dog is not too much of a picky eater, but definitely I will change. I've been chasing, chasing the kibble to find her favorite brand, and I think I finally found one that she goes nuts for because there are other brands of kible that she's not so interested in.

What kind of pup do you have? She's a she's a an amalgamation of small dogs, kind of like all shoved into one tiny unit of your fury. She's a I think she's a terrier and a spaniel mixed with a Chihuahua or something. Um, yeah, it was a. It's a it's just a ball of kind of just intense energy. Uh. Yeah, but she's she's not too picky, but she deaf only enjoys the fancier kibble, which is great thanks for having

expensive taste stuff. And then of course she likes the enrichment of having like different types of food in addition to the kibble. Yeah. Well, my my pup, Charlie, he just he's totally fine eating the same Rachel Ray dog food over and over in just but he he only likes to eat when I'm eating. Oh, that's interesting. He's a social eater. Yeah, he won't eat until I have food, and then he gets mad that I'm not eating it

right right, just s it's a huff. Yeah, yeah, I mean you've got to join them, join in, put your phone down, join him at the dinner table, and have an actual conversation. Where does imagination happen in the brain? Well, as you may know, things don't necessarily always live in parts of the brain. You don't have a circle of brain tissue that serves as your imagination palace, because the brain is interconnected with parallel processes and patterns of neural activity.

But that's not to say we can't take a stab at the question of where and how imagination is processed. And it turns out that imagined events take a different path from reality inside our heads. A study by Tononi at All published in NeuroImage found that imagination flows differently in the brain than reality. When you're looking at an image, neural activity flows up from the occipital lobe at the back of your brain towards the prietal lobe at the

top of your brain. When you're imagining something, neural activity flows in the opposite direction, down from the prioral lobe to the occipital lobe. This doesn't mean imagination originates in the prietal lobe, simply that it seems to travel in a certain path through the brain. But imagination isn't the same for everyone. For me, imagination may mean thinking of giant rainbow colored velvet worms who I'm best friends with. But other folks actually have a more conceptual imagination, something

called a fantasia, which will discuss when we return. In the meantime, I'll be hanging out with my imaginary We're friends. This one's name is Rank. Let's take a trip to imagination station too. Well, hang on what happens when we go to imagination station. It's actually different for everyone. Do you know how vivid your imagination is? Do you have a highly detailed visual imagination or are you more conceptual

thinking and ideas. There's a test to see where you lie on this scale, called the Vividness of Visual Imagery Questionnaire. You can actually take this test on a University of Exeter survey website, and I'll include a link to it in the show notes. But in the meantime, let's go on a very special imagination station tour of your imagination. So, first of all, imagine one of your friends, someone you see all the time. Now, really consider what picture is

forming in your mind. Can you see their face, the color of their eyes, What about the pose they're in, their hand gestures? Can you see the shirt they're wearing? What color is it when they walk? What does their gait look like? Now imagine the sun rising in a hazy sky? Can you see this vividly? Can you see the blue sky around the sun? Now, imagine a storm is coming. Can you see the clouds form around the sun, the light peeking through, maybe lightning illuminating the storm clouds

from within? Now imagine a giant, hairy tarantula about to eat your butt. Now I'm just kidding. How vivid were these images? Could you see them with clarity in your mind's eye? Could you see vague shapes representing them? Or could you see well, basically nothing but just the idea of these concepts. If you fall under the latter category, you may have a fantasia. So can where would you say your mind's eye lies under? Like? Do you have

a very vivid imagination? Do you kind of have a more representational imagination where you see kind of shapes, or is it like purely conceptual where you don't actually see the thing, but you understand the concept and you're thinking of the concept. I think it's conceptual because I'll know what I want to draw when it comes to the comic, but it's not until I'm actually doing lines where I'm like, I don't love that, Let's try it this way. I would love to be more like visual in my head.

It just doesn't work that way, though, Well it doesn't, and it's I don't think there's anything to feel bad about, necessarily, because I think that, from what my research has told me, is really created of people can have a fantasia. That doesn't mean you're not creative and not imaginative. It just means that your brain works in a different way. It doesn't visualize an object like it doesn't give you a

photo of that object in your brain. It just gives you sort of the emotion and the concept, the intellectual concept of that thing, rather than that visual. For me, I'm actually I think kind of at the other end of the scale where I see very detailed I wouldn't say like photographic representations, but very highly detailed things, and that can be um it has its upsides, I guess, like you can imagine stuff in vivid detail. It also has its downsides because it can be anxiety in ducing.

And so I'm actually going to talk about hyper fantasia as well and why that's not always such a great thing. I don't think I have hyper fantasia, but I think I'm kind of up there in terms of like like seeing things in this like highly defined detail, and that can be that can be interesting. It can also be a little bit scary. I don't know if see that. Like that never crossed my mind. Just being creative and like having focused on detail personally, I always have thought

it's going to be a good thing. I'll use that to my advantage. But you're totally right, like minute detail and then concentrating on that, like I get anxiety too, and now it's kind of like horrifying. It could also be and it's not necessarily going to make you a better artist, because if you have a very detailed image of what something is supposed to look like in your head, it may actually be harder to draw it because you, like say you're drawing from life or understanding the physics

of how you're supposed to draw something. If you have an image that's in conflict with that and you're trying to draw your mental image rather than what the thing actually looks like, you can get this like conflict and then it doesn't actually come out right. Not not to say that it's like anyone who as a vivid imagination can't do art. I just don't think it necessarily has an impact on whether you can be artistic or creative.

And in fact, like, I mean, it's great to hear from you because you're an artist in your you do comic art and it's highly creative, and you are more I mean, it's not I'm not necessarily saying you have a fantasia. I can't like diagnose you with that, but you're maybe, well you're maybe more on that end of I think it's a spectrum. It's like maybe you're more on that end of the spectrum of more of a conceptual thinker. So first let's talk about what a phantasia is,

how maybe it happens. So it's it actually might be hard for people to understand, like who are highly visual, like it might be actually kind of difficult to conceptualize what that means. So, um, it's where your imagination works such that it's not that you visualize the thing in your mind. Um. So here's an example, and I've actually seen.

One of the reasons I wanted to do this episode is there's this kind of viral thing going around on Twitter where it's it's a picture where it's like a bunch of different apples, and it's like imagine, it says, imagine an apple, now which one of these apples represents

what you imagine? And then there's like a photo of an apple, kind of a drawing of an apple, and then a sort of blobby, like more cartoonish apple, and then there's just sort of a vague apple like shape, and then there's like a blank like you don't see it at all. Where would you say you lie on that kind of I mean, I can show let me just show it to you. Twitter trends are just like

all over the place. Sometimes I'm right there, but I can see, like I can see that being devolved into a meme to like how I am my first glass of wine versus I am on my eighth bottle of light. Yeah. So this is from Twitter user at premium underscore heart and she has this image of apples, So where would you they're like, number one is like a photo of an apple, Number two is like a cartoon, Three is like a grayish image for is more of a blobbish shape,

and five is just like blank. I would say it really depends on what kind of thing is going on in my head. So like today I didn't post a new comic because I got stuck in the conception of I want this to be done, but every time I drew it out, it just it wasn't working. But in my head it worked. So I would say, maybe the grayish apple, like something's there, but it's not. It's not the fully detailed apple, like right on it, right yeah, And I would say I'm like, I also think there's

a range. And I think like even within like a single person, even within like a single day, there's going to be a range of stuff. So if I'm thinking of someone I know, like I'm thinking of you know, my boyfriend's, I can see something very clear. If I'm trying to think of like I don't know, even a celebrity that I don't I'm not too into, Like I can't quite like I don't know. Well, now I can imagine Reese Witherspoon really clearly actually, now that I think

of it, like she she's just right in there. But I don't know a more obscure celebrity. Now again, Danny DeVito, he's right there now, I'm see, I'm trying to think of celebrity. I'm not always thinking of like Alton Brown. I okay, yeah, that's extremely he's the cook. Yeah yeah, no, I like is he does he wear glasses? Even? Yes, yeah,

it's very vague. I'm thinking of an apple with glasses now, but yeah, so it's so I would say, I'm I'm more of the like either the kind of detailed photographic apple or cartoonish apple, kind of depending on where I'm at, But it's usually like around there, and then you're on towards sort of the middle end of the spectrum where it's like the sort of grayish apple and then like the more blobby one. Like I think a good example

is this happened a few years ago. Me and my friends went to the Hollywood Bowl to see a show, and I was newer to the area because I moved to California from a very rural Nevada. But I was always looking for famous people and you're not going to see Tom Hanks walking down the street, right, But we were crossing the street and there was I don't even know his name, but um he was in in a couple of movies. But I had to I had to google bald comedian actor. No, you know Diesel none, the

Rock Johnson. Oh no, I can't. I'm just naming all the like. I think he's he does Children's hospital on like Adults. Rob Cordry me Rock Cordry. Yeah, I saw that guy. Yeah, but it was like I had the idea of, like I connection, but it's not there. It looks like an apple with sunglasses exactly, Alton Brown's like twin exactly. Yeah, it's it's very interesting. And so for people who don't imagine anything like, it's basically not they don't see a visual representation at all. It's just the

concept of Rob Cordry. It's that's a fantasia and a vividness of like I said before, vividness of mental imageries on a spectrum going basically from hyper fantasia that's like extremely vivid imagination to a fantasia where it's almost completely conceptual, and researchers are it's kind of a new field of study.

It's not super well understood. But there was a study published in Cortex by Ko and Gerson who sought to examine whether a fantasia was actually your brain not coming up with the mental imagery or just that you're not conscious of it. So your brain is forming the like our consciousness is weird. We can form things in our brain, have information that is happening in our brain that we're just not conscious of. But they did this, uh, it's

called the binocular rivalry test. So our eyes, if you have information going into one eye and information going into the other eye is processed in the brain like in different parts. So like if your eyes are presented with two different images and you're not seeing like you're not seeing the shared image, Like say you have a wall between those two images and you're just you're facing that wall.

There's the left image in the right image. Or another way to do it is actually to have one image b um be red and the other image b Cian that that blue color, and then you wear the red and Cian blue glas that are used in three D and you're wearing that and so you can only see the red one with the red side of the glasses and the blue one with the blue side of the glasses. Either way, essentially, you're presenting one image that only one eye can see and the other image that only the

other I can see. And what happens in the brain is actually your brain isn't necessarily combining these images. It is flipping back and forth between them, so like animation, Yeah, kind of okay, which is interesting, but it eventually your brain will start to favor one image over the other, and the other image will fade away and the one

image will become dominant. What happens is that for people who can imagine images, and it's basically anyone who doesn't have a fantasia, because these are very simple, like shapes and patterns, and if you prime them by either showing them a very faint image that's like barely consciously uh perceivable, and then you you prime them with that, people will be more likely to like, once your eyeballs are arguing over which image your brain should be thinking about, it'll

tend to think about that image that you were primed with. And it does that make sense? It does? And I'm just like I'm absorbing this information and at the same time thinking, thank God, like I'm not high because I was just like just a random rabbit hole of like conception and visualization. And what if our brain is just an eyeball, man, Yeah, man, if we've never even seen our own eyeballs, with our own eyeballs and my eyeballs

pick which one, it's just just slowly go into madnese. Well, so you're so if you're also asked to imagine this one of the shapes like that, also, you will be primed to pick that one as your your eyeballs are taking It's not really your eyeballs that are arguing over it's your brain that correspond the parts of your brain that correspond with those visual fields that are arguing over which image to decide on seeing. Essentially all right, So just just to kind of do a quick recap summary.

So it's like you get one image in the left eye, one image in the right eye, your brain argues over which to see, and you end up seeing one like say it's the right image, and you know, normally it basically corresponds with chance. Once you've controlled for like the dominant eye, we're not really going to get into that too much. It just kind of complicates things. But yeah, once you've controlled for that, it's basically random which image you choose. And then when you're primed with an image,

it no longer is random. Your brain is like, oh, okay, let's actually do that image. We decide to see that one rather than the other one. With people with a fantasia, that priming does not work. Oh, they remain at chance in terms of which image they their brain decides on

seeing when they're having that eyeballs argument. And essentially what that means is that people with a fantasia are not The idea of why that test, that binocular rivalry test works is that when that image is flashed in your brain, that priming image, it creates a pattern of activation in the brain, like you're a pattern of activation being your

neurons firing in a certain way. And once that happens, it's actually lowered the threshold of that pattern being able to being reignited, essentially, because your brain is consut your brain is visualizing that, it's it's actually forming that image in your head. And then like when you're trying to argue over these which image to prefer later that kind of image that has formed in your brain is still

there and it's like, okay, what about this one. Essentially, so people with a fantasia cannot be primed to favor one of these images, which basically that means that their brain is not forming that image in there imagination, like they can't. They aren't forming that image. So being primed with it earlier and having that image being imagined like by the other participants isn't really happening for the people

with a fantasia. So when they go through the test, they are still at random chance over which image they prefer, even when they're primed with one of the images. So it's that's a really interesting test that shows like not only I mean people with a fantasia probably are like of course it's real, but obviously sometimes people are doubtful of like are you are you sure? Are you? Just like not thinking hard enough? But okay, going back to being high, it's like because we can't conceptualize it, but

they can because they can't. Yes, yeah, yeah, but they are not high like in the corner. Yes, yes, this is a This is not the podcast to necessarily get high on or to get very high on I'm not sure. Don't you drugs kids? This has been a production of Katie Golden crap. Now, I don't know. So people with a fantasia when they do tests that are measuring like how can you visualize this object, they're obviously not visualizing

it like other people do. But when they're tested on spatial understanding and rotating objects in three D space they have they're just as good as anyone else, which is really interesting. So it's not it's not that they're unable to understand physical concepts like this is something different. This is thought to maybe be a difference between the where

and what pathways of the brain. So the two stream process of visual perception is the hypothesis that your visual cortex processes what and where information along two different pathways. So what information is like what an apple looks like? What is an apple? Even who even likes apples is in the what pathway? And then where is like where is the apple? Why is it being thrown towards my face? Brown? Stop? Where where is Alton Brown? And where where did this

apple come from? So the two stream process isn't as clean cut as it sounds. Probably, so recent research suggests that um that what and where pathways in the brain aren't completely separate processes. There's some cross pollination, there's some like you know, communication going on, and things aren't just neatly segmented into these different like pathways of the brain. But it's still a good heuristic to kind of understand like, um,

how visual process sort of work. So now if I'm totally off, like this just does not make sense for someone that needed glasses, would that change like how they would have, um a fantation like I didn't get glasses until I was about seventeen, and then when I did, holy like sorry, I was blind. But with that like theoretically mess with my my ideas on conception. That's a

really interesting question. I don't know the answer to that, but that is a really really interesting idea, which is that, like, because we do know that as babies to young childhood or your brain is going under massive developmental changes, so they're certainly could be an environmental cause in the kind of different maybe the way that the brain develops, like the the what pathway of the brain and the ability to visualize things made in fact developed differently if you're

site is different. I don't actually know if that's the case. But I think that's a really interesting question that you bring up. Well, I just because you're taking it in visually, you have aid now, and is it even possible to make that chemical change in the trail like it you mean, like, well, it's our brains. So as we're developing, our brains grow and develop, and it is that growth of our neural pathways and the way our brains work essentially is definitely

shaped by environment. And this specific instance, I don't know if like eyesight change in childhood would have an impact on a fantasia. I don't know one way or the other.

But it's not a crazy idea at all, Like the idea that I think I want to do a whole episode on, like on stuff like that, where how the brain can change throughout development depending on different environmental factors, especially when you're say you experience blindness or or hearing impairment or something, and how that causes changes in the

development of the brain, because it certainly does. Well, you see like all those viral videos of um either a deaf child or a blind person or a color blind let's put it that way, So guy's never seen color finally got these special glasses tusey color and then he cries, I cry, We all cry. Everyone's sobbing. Yeah, but fally change how like what do you mean the sky's the same color as water? Right? It just right? Well, no, I certainly, I certainly think that must have a an

effect on brain development. I don't know what that effect necessarily is and how that that shakes out. It's not it's not necessarily that's not to say like someone who has color blindness or visual impairment from a young age, that's gonna, you know, quote unquote mess up your brain or anything like that. I know you're not. I know you're not saying that. I'm just clarifying that, but like that, it's it's it is interesting like our sort of the I guess, like our outer shells, which is like our

eyeballs and stuff, is outer our sensory equipment. If that changes, if that's like different, it will affect like what's happening in our brains and it will probably have an impact on development. Um. Yeah, no, that's a very interesting point, right. So like that to stream process that we were talking about, let me get into kind of the anatomy of that. You have the what pathway, which is processed in the

ventral stream. So that's basically along sort of the undercarriage of the brain roughly speaking, and the wherein formation um, like where where is a thing is processed on the dorsal stream, So that's around the top of that. I mean think of like a dorsal fin like around the sort of like you know, like if your brain had a big dorsal fin on it, but it doesn't. That's my brain has a blow hole, and so that's the

that's the wear pathway. Like I said earlier, it's not as super segmented, like it's not like everything to do with location is in that dorsal stream and everything to do with what a thing is and that there's not like cross parallel activation going on. That's not there certainly is that, but generally speaking, you have more activity in

those parts of the brain. So for people with a fantasia, there's this theory that the what pathway that that u ventral stream under the brain is different from the general population without a fantasia UM, whereas the wear pathway UM, the dorsal stream at the top of the brain is probably functioning in the same way. And that's why they can do tests where they are able to do spatial reasoning and you know, rotating three D objects and all

of that perfectly fine. But that they're they're um, they're what is the item is functioning differently, not functioning worse, but functioning differently. To that point, I want to talk about that a fantasia sounds like, oh, it's the opposite of fantasia, and therefore people with a fantasia have no imagination. Totally not true. I mean, first of all, Kim, you are not You're maybe on I wouldn't say you have a fantasia based on what you said, but you are

definitely like more conceptual in your thinking. Is that is that fair to say, oh, yeah, I'll have a great idea, but tell me to put it together. Well, you probably are similar to some famous animators. So, um, your brain thinking in concepts doesn't mean you're not thinking with clarity or with detail. You're just thinking in conceptual and emotional detail. Um. So, like, here's the difference between like visual detail like an image,

and a concept. So, like a visual thing would be a picture of a house and you can see the bricks, you can see the doors, the dorners and the buttresses and other archaeology or architectural popping out everywhere or what they don't have bones in your bodies in the wall is a true crime. But then a concept would be home. That's a more vague thing. That's like that's where you feel comfortable, that's where you can kick back. Maybe a house doesn't just pop in your head, but your family.

The idea of being with family, of being able to relax and like pick your nose and nobody judges you. Here's another one, like a picture of like a fat stack of cash, like a bunch of dollar bills stacked together, you know, just like I don't know, like several bills, fat stacks of more cash than you can imagine, or versus like the concept of success is that's like a concept, that's an idea. Um, So people with a fantasia when you say imagine stacks of cash, they're not thinking of

a picture of stacks of cash. They're thinking of the concept of stacks of cash. That is that kind of makes sense. Yeah, that well, it's all about one's perception. Like success to me would have been going to my high school reunion and be like sucking people doing great. That is success. Success to me would be absolutely covered

in velvet worms. They're so cute. It's my most recent They're very cute group of worms called velvet worms, and we actually talk about them in my previous episode love Bugs. I was gonna say, I tried, like bugs. Great, just over there, just stay in your line. I got I get you, I get you. Well, let's talk about animation then, because I have a feeling you'll enjoy that more so. Uh, Like I said, people with a fantasia can be in and often are in creative fields. So x Pixar president

ed Catmill had a fantasia. Yeah. Um, actually don't know why I said had. I think he's still he's cured, and so he reportedly has a fantasia where he says, yeah, I don't visualize things in my head. It only is like once I put it out there on paper that it exists. Ed, hit me up. We could chat and it doesn't stop there. Glenn Keene, the character doesn't Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin and more. He's the character designer and super using animator. He also has a fantasia.

Do that makes so much sense because I'm obviously a Disney um. So, like all on the DVDs of the anime movies, I would watch the bonus content like religiously, but there's always the segment of coming up with Ariel or Jasmine, and it's always like my cousin's sister or that's your cousin. But you know what I mean. They would take references and then piece it together to find Ariel. You know that it's all come together. Also, his initial

sketches of Ariel are not even really human. It's just like like these big strokes that are very expressive, vaguely human shaped or I guess human fish shaped, um, And they are extremely expressive, but they don't have a face. And then he just kind of works on it, works on it until he gets Ariel as you know her. So he working from and I think it's actually probably his strength. He's not working from a photographic image of what he sees Aerial to be. He's working from this concept,

this emotional concept of what her personality is. And then he's putting that in the strokes. And then because you can still be an artist and have a fantasia, because you know how like the technical skill of art um, you know, then he can create her from that first expressive thing, and it's really I think it you know, you can view it as not necessarily a weakness to have that. No, I would definitely say it's worked out for him, and it is really neat to take something

broad and condensed, condensed, condensed, Yeah, that's yeah, exactly. So on the other end of that sort of visualization scale is hyper fantasia. So hyper fantasia is extremely vivid imagination, to the point where one person who had alf reported having hyper hyper fantasia said she passed out after reading a story in which someone steps on a nail because she visualized it in such vivid detail. Yeah. Yeah, So it's not always great to to be able to imagine

in such vivid detail. It can actually be anxiety inducing. Hyperfantasia hasn't actually been studied all that much, so it's relatively mysterious. Um And I want to make it clear though. Hyper fantasia is different from hallucination. You're not seeing something before your eyes. You're you're seeing something in your imagination. You know, what's your imagination? Yeah, it's I think it's a very interesting thing. I know that, like I was of an extremely strong day dreamer when I was a kid,

and I would visualize things in very precise detail. One of my favorite things to do when I was born in class was to imagine, like some kind of monster come in and just like throw chairs and tables around, not hurt anyone. I wasn't know, an evil kid, but just like cause chaos. And it was fun to imagine like a monster crawling on the ceiling and like you know, tossing chairs around and tearing into the white board and things like that. Homework, no homework. But hallucination is different.

And I do want to talk about hallucination just because I think that there's some misconceptions about what qualifies as hallucination and what it is, because it's not it's not necessarily imagination and overactive imagination. That's not really what a hallucination is. But it's also not always associated with psychosis. So UM, hallucinations obviously you are seeing visually something that isn't there, and you're processing it as visual information, but

it's actually not existing. UM, it's often associated with schizophrenia, substance abuse, psychosis, or dementia, but it's not always the case that someone who experiences hallucination has experiences any of those conditions. So people who have hallu sucinations aren't always delusional, meaning that they understand that they're having hallucinations. So a good example of this is Charles Bonnet syndrome. Um, this is uh condition when your eyesight is failing and your brain.

So the condition isn't that your eyesight is failing. Maybe your eyesight is failing because of macular generation just from normal aging, but your brain is filling in the missing information with visual hallucinations. UM. So people with Charles's Bonnet syndrome are often aware that these hallucinations aren't real. But they can be as simple as just sort of floating shapes and patterns to being as complex as a person

standing there or like a landscape. Uh. And probably it depends on like how um detailed people's visual imaginations are and how that that might tie into Child's Bonnet syndrome. That just sounds honestly very frustrating. Yeah, I mean people who have it's not always a frightening experience, although it can be very disorienting when you first start to experience it.

It's I think that one of the treatment plans for it is being able to understand, like just having that meta awareness of like what's happening, that these are hallucinations that you're not you know, quote unquote crazy. Um, you know not to say that people who have um mental illness that causes the hallucinations. I still don't. I wouldn't call that quote unquote crazy, but um, but it's not.

It's that you are basically your brain is like, okay, usually like I would be able to see this whole scene, but there's a big chunk missing, so I'm going to add in what is there? What should be there? And we actually do this all the time, Like and you have a blind spot right now that you don't see as being a blind spot because your brain is filling in all that information and it's like, no, there's probably more wall going this way, so you see it. That

wall isn't there. Technically speaking, that's hallucination, but it's you know already, you already told me that you're not high, so you have no excuses. No, it's just now it's I don't know that that was just kind of a trip in itself. You're right, I'm not looking at a wall, but there is a wall behind. Oh my gosh, getting high on knowledge, high on light can animals hallucinate. Do you think scientists would give rats and monkeys cocaine to

find out? Do you think these studies would have happened in the seventies, Well, if you answered yes to all these questions, congratulations. In the nineties seventies, a number of studies examined cocaine and amphetamine use in humans, rats, and monkeys. Measuring hallucinations and humans is more straightforward than in animals because the people taking the drugs, either in laboratory settings or on their own, are able to report their own hallucinations.

One of the more common ones is that of bugs or parasites on your skin, and those suffering these hallucinations can even scratch wounds or scars into their own skin. When rats and monkeys were given doses of amphetamines and cocaine over the course of several days, though they can't self report having hallucinations, they showed behavioral signs. They engaged in increased grooming behavior, apparently trying to rid themselves of

imaginary parasites or trying to shake them off. I guess the real lesson to be learned here is don't deal drugs to rats anyways. When we return, we're going to explore how real life can be more incredible than what your imagination can come up with. For those who have highly vivid visual imaginations are highly conceptual imaginations. The interesting thing about the human mind is that we can eat they're visualized or conceptualized things that don't exist in reality.

For instance, if I told you to imagine a giraffe with a beacon wings, you could do it. Or if I told you to imagine a turtle the size of a car, it's a piece of cake. Now here's the fun part. Both of these things actually exist, well existed. The cats a quotalist north Ropy, was a giant pterodactyl like pterosaur the size of a giraffe who could fly.

It's extinct now, as is the giant turtle the stupendomized Geographicus, who was the size of a car, as evidenced by its huge fossilized shell recently found in Venezuela's Rumaco region. So any kind of absurd imaginary animal you concoct, I may have a real example for you. So okay, I don't know if this game is gonna work or not, but try to imagine a ridiculous animal and let me see if I can think of a real and that's similar, man, a ridiculous animal. Okay your no, those aren't real no,

um okay, so put on the spot. Sorry, we can You know I like this game. Um, I would say body of a hippo okay, but with a head like a cow. Okay, it just sounds like a cow at this point, but with feathers, with feathers, okay. Let me think this is probably going to be a dinosaur of some kind because they did have feathers and they have really interesting heads. So I'm going to say I don't know dinosaurs that well, but let me try to think of this guy. Quick answer my mother in law. No,

she's lovely, but she doesn't listen to podcast. Sort. See, when you were talking about the draft with a beak, I was thinking of like a squid speak on a draft that would be that's far out there. Like that kind of imagination thought process I kind of associate with Monty Python and that kind of art. Just almost obscene, obscure, but very Actually, you know what, the answer to this

is extremely easy. I just realized, But probably what you're thinking of is a triceratops because they probably had feathers. They were big and thick like a hippo. And they have a head that's kind of like a cow because they've got horns like a steer and their herbivores, and they've got sort of a cow like head with an added sort of squidbeak like things. Yeah, oh, sure made made that a little bit more creative, quick, kim, be creative a cow? Well what if I told you that

there is you have? You? You can imagine a manta ray? Right? Oh yeah? What about a pink one, like an albino one. Nope, like a bright hot Lisa Frank pink manneray, that would be sick. But it's hard to think of an animal that's bright pink in my mind. Well then why don't I just show you this is a real, real guy. So here's the bright pink manta ray. Now why is that? Like? Are they venomous? Nope? Nope. And in fact, most Manta

rays are not pink like that. In fact, I would say nine of manna rays are not going to be that color of bright few ship pink. But this Manna ray is real. It's not a photoshop. Just so happens that this individual man ray has a genetic condition that makes it bright pink. So this guy's name is Inspector Clusseau. The mantaray, the reef manta ray, which is named after

the detective in the Pink Panther movies. Uh. It was found off the coast of Australia and it's actually been observed and photographed numerous times and it is completely naturally pink. There's no dyes, no pollution or anything causing this. Uh. It's thought to be caused by a genetic condition called ari is um wait nope ere ere thrism. So that's similar to being albino where you lack pigment, or melanistic

where you have darker pigment. So like the melanistic squirrels that live in northern California and on the East Coast have that those black coats or an albino crow will be have white feathers. But this this uh, this reef manta ray has um a rithrism which causes that pink pigment to be more prevalent. Even though he's so brightly unnaturally pink, biologists aren't too worried about his survival chances.

Reef manta raise are huge adult reef manta raise can grow from nine to eighteen feet wide and way up to a ton. Yeah, so he's a big pink boy. I mean it's like that episode of The Simpsons where where Homewer wears the pink shirt to work and he's where everyone will make fun of him, but instead everyone's super into it. Also, like if he gets made fun of, I mean, like he's so big, like he can just

like slappy with his big old flappy body exactly. I was just thinking like, either he owns the crap out of that, like he's I'm pink, excuse me, or he just like abhors the color and just blends into the natural environment, you know, possible. I'm going to hope that he owns it, honestly. Same here and personally, I like a guy in a pink shirt, yes, you know, confidence, confidence,

you know. I think pink is a great color. It's actually funny because back in the olden times, like in the seventeen hundreds, pink was considered to be a boy's color and blue as a girl's color with like children, so like a boy would wear pink because that was considered to be sort of a lighter version of baby version of red and riders the color of moon because it's mammally and bloodshed and and blue is like blue is the color of virgin mary. So of course we

wanted on our baby girls. That's not weird at all, um, so just switched that. Everybody whoever wants to wear pink wear pink. I think it's awesome, including Manta Raise. So I do kind of want to talk about Mantareis a little bit. They are gentle giants who feed on zooplankton um.

They look super alien. Uh so they almost I mean I feel like they don't even register as fish, although they are fish, but they don't look like a normal fish, so they kind of registers like a different type of animal, like almost like a jellyfish or something that wouldn't have a brain. But they do have brains, and in fact they are complex with developed social intelligence. Actually they're the reef Manta Ray's cousin, the giant Mantarey has the biggest

brain of all fish. Now that doesn't mean they're the smartest. Like we've talked about on the show before, brain sides doesn't correlate absolutely to intelligence, but they do have a brain and it's a big en so reef Manta's recently have been discovered to form close friendships and bonds with each other. Females will often hang out in clicks and just like hanging out. Oh my god, I was just thinking, like mean girls Wednesdays, we wear pink girl, I am pink. Trump.

Stop trying to make help happen. It's not going to happen. There are other clicks that consist of females, males, and juveniles. The idea is that females often congregate together because like, when you have a big group of females, they can like if they're not in the mood for like receiving mating rituals from males, then like they basically intimidate the males from approaching them, just like the buddy system at bars works or at nightclubs, where it's like you want

to like kind of intimidate the creep boids. You hang out with a big group of girls. Dude in the paint has been staring at me for next I'd be into it. I don't know. Just yeah, no, just settle lives. Yeah. So they also seem to remember companions and hang out with them. They're not at the same level of dolphins,

who can remember their companions for years. In fact, some dolphins have been found to have friendships that last their entire lifetime, but the manta rays can at least aim to hang out with certain individuals over the course of a few weeks to months. So there are social butterflies.

But they are social butterflies, so they'll move on from you eventually, all right, I'm not as popular as They can also communicate through brightening the white patches on their back when interacting with each other, and it's not quite understood what this means. It could just be like excitement, like a dog wagging its tail, uh, blushing maybe blushing? Yeah, maybe Yeah. They look so incredibly alien. They look like a spaceship, so it's hard to imagine them having like

a personality, but they do. Yeah, like saying, put a face on this animal. Where there's several places that all look wrong, Well, the face if if you really want to know, like, its eyes are kind of here, and then it's usually got a little mouth here. And sometimes when I when a ray, well if you can see its belly especial like baby rays, they have a cute little little face down there. Actually what looks like it's eyeballs are not are not eyeballs down there, but they are. Yeah,

it makes it look like it's a little smiley faxed right. Yeah, So I want to play that game again of like you imagine an animal and I try to match it with an animal of my own, but this time, think of just the craziest insect you can think of. I can do that. They're kind of scary to me, so it's easier to be more um detailed, I guess, like fear does drive detail. Yeah, what I don't like, just

times it by ten. So uh, I think of a bug that has fifteen ish legs, not like a centipede or a millipede, but that and then eyes on the bottom of those legs, plus having hair, and then like the war shacked test where it's face should be. You know what, I think the closest thing I can think of is not necessarily an insect, but an arthur pod and that would be a lobster with but a lobster that has a uh sort of a colouration abnormality where

it's actually they're called calco lobsters. Let me show you a picture of it. Now. Admittedly, it's eyeballs aren't all on the end of its legs, but they do have like the eyes talks. Uh So, here's a here's a calico. Okay, it kind of works, and that does work. You need to get that blue lobster. Hook it up with the pink ray and then we've got to find like bright orange. Well that's Nemo Nemo, the pink Man array and the

blue lobster. Pixar ed ed tell it. There is a a bug that is called the troll haired mystery bug, which is a real thing, although it doesn't necessarily describe a real species. Okay, let me explain. So this is a bug that looks like a party horn or an alien with like a rainbow iridescent makeup brush or like or like fiber optic cable sticking out of its but let me just show you sounds extra. Oh, it's like

someone went to a rave and vomited. I think, like having all those glow sticks because it does look like the fiber optics kind of thing. But yeah, it looks like fiber optic cable glow sticks coming out of its butt. Um so the butt part, yeah it is. It's the rear aptomen it's not the anus, but it is the butt area. So this is a photographed by Tron Larson which is depicting what could potentially be a new species

of plant hopper insect. This was found in Surinam, but this could also be the juvenile form of an already documented species. We just don't know. There's so many dang insects species out there. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes you find when that looks like a new species, but then it's just like a juvenile or in a weird phase of its molting um. But the plant hoppers in general are really interesting.

So the nymph forms of these plant hoppers actually have these biological gears in their legs that allow that allow their legs to basically snap in a really powerful spring loaded jump. That oh scary bugs. I don't think they're too scary because they're very small. A lot of them actually look like leaves. I know I had some of these,

I think in San Diego. They kind of looked a little bit leaf shaped and if you'd hold one and like it is this teeny tiny bug and then like you could only hold it for a little while before it like basically just vanished because it was jumping and it jumped so hard you could feel like a little at a pressure even though they were so tiny. Crazy. Yeah,

But to explain the the butt confetti. Um, many species of plant hoppers have abdominal filaments, which are these broomlike hairs that are actually made of keto ester wax, which they produce by converting plant juices that they eat. Sounds like me a taco bell. You just it's just like this, like rainbow. So like if you ate like taco bell and then immediately had one of those unicorn latte's or what is it like the unicorn frappe from Starbucks? Yeah,

some from Chino. Bright paint and sparkles. Yeah. Yeah. Horrorful, horror, horrorful, awful flying, Yeah, horrorful and awful flying. I don't hate myself that much. Um. But the this plume of waxy hairs that do look like an troll doll head protects them from predators who don't want a mouthful of hairy ass wax and parasitoids, which are parasites that try to

get inside your body. Um, but they can't navigate around all that hairy wax and get inside the the plant hopper and a lot of different species of plant hopper do this and it's like the shape that they're they're weird. Butt wax takes can be variable. So let me show you if you now, I think this is awesome looking, you may find it a little bit weird. Okay, Like that's that seems a bit more traditional traditional as would you like to go with new age ass wax or traditional? Um? Yeah,

this is like it. They look sort of like it looks like a bug, but then it's all screwed up in the back. Yeah, like a bug that partially exploded into what's that like like that phone, like cocking foam or something. Yeah. And then here's another one. This one just more has a broom, but it looks like it's in pain. It looks like someone pushed it in. Someone shoved a broom up. It's but that was a date night, like no safety word was very embarrassing. Trip to the

emergency room. Man, not needed. Here's another one with a sort of brushy brushy butt ah. This one more looks like a paint brush but to me, but like a paint brush that you haven't been taken care of. I guess it's Yeah. That one almost kind of looks like a shrimp. I don't. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, it's kind of shrimp shaped, yeah, but with a very fluffy But I think I have one more. Yeah, here's one.

This looks like an adult because it's got wings, and then it just has these butt fronds that don't they almost look like bird feathers. They do like or kind of twigs because it has the pieces coming out. Yeah, ye are better like plant roots coming out of it. Oh that's awesome and not horrifying at all, not at all. Definitely all include pictures of all these these graphs there, sorry, all of these plant hoppers in the description. But if you want to google it, if you, I think if

you just google Harry plant hopper, that should be safe. Yeah, I think safe search on for sure. Definitely room stick up the butt is one thing don't do. Don't don't do a Google of that. Please. Well, thank you so much for joining me. You got anything to plug? You want to talk a little bit about your comics and where people can find them? Sure? Um? Oh wow, totally mind blank Instagram, Twitter plantation. Yea, I can conceptualize that I have accounting. Um, the red dot h D underscore

underscore red dot Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Red dot comics. I'm on Reddit, browsing, lurking, getting down boats, I'm around. So yeah, this was fun. Yeah, thank you so much for joining me. This is a this is a fun one in exploring the imagination. Lend you looked visibly frightened that I was about to sing. I don't sing, I don't talk well, and yet here I am. It's I'm evolving backwards, I guess.

So you can find us where can't I'm drawing a blank to Creature feet Pod on Twitter, Creature feature Pod on Instagram. Wait no, I did that backwards. Let's try this again. Creature Feature Pod on Instagram, Creature feet Pod on Twitter. That's f A T F E T. That's something very different. On the internet. You can find us on the i heeart website. Just search for Creature Feature

and you can find me at Katie Golden. And as always, I am pro bird rights, where I am fighting for the rites of birds to take over as the dominant species of the planet. Yes, yes, so yeah. If you're enjoying the show, please leave a rating, subscribe, download, leave a review. All those things. It actually really really helps me out, gets us, gets us up in that algorithm, so please, thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next Wednesday. Thanks to the Space Classics for

their super imaginative song. X Aluminum Creature Future is a production of I heart Radio. To listen to more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit i heart radio dot com, the iHeart Radio app, or wherever you get your favorite shows.