Ferocious Friendships

Discover this and more as we answer the age old question can you call yourself a friend if you don't appreciate your friend's poop? Joining me today is Friend to All Animals and host of Just the Zoo of Us as well as spell Bound and Gag. Ellen Weatherford Welcome, Hi, Katie. I'm so happy to be talking to you again. It's so exciting. I love to talk to you. I've been on your podcast, Just the Zoo of Us. We've chat

about animals, You've been on my podcast. There's a lot of just sort of mixing, mix and match, Pick and Mix podcast. We have our own Ferocious Animal Friendship. There you go. Yeah, we both you and I have a symbiotic relationships. Mutualism exactly. Yes, yeah, so I I am so excited. I think you're going to love the animal friendships I've picked out, and you also have one as a surprise for me, which I'm so excited about. I'm not usually the one who gets to be surprised on

this podcast, so I'm very excited. Oh, you won't be the only one being surprised, because this one involves quite a surprising behavior to the one that is the recipient of it. So it's a it's very exciting. It's a surprise to a little helpless later surprise friendship. Well, this is very exciting. Um Ellen, do you like bats? I love bats so much. I saw some in real life recently.

I was driving into my neighborhood and I just so happened to look up at the right exact right moment to see a whole what do you call a group of bats? Is it a swarm of bats? A flock of bats? I think it's a swarm. Whatever it was, I saw a bunch of them flying over my car and it was beautiful, joyful experience. That's so wonderful. I love bats too, um. I mean, according to the Internet, it's called a cauldred of bats. I don't think any

I don't think anyone uses that. A lot of these things of like technically it's a flounce of peacocks or whatever. You know, it's like nobody actually uses that. I think that recently, these like they're called terms of venery. I learned recently that a lot of them, most of them were made up by old British hunters that wanted to flex their hunting cap. You wanted to like well actually each other basically and be very like gate keepy about like a knowledge that I can be like, oh, did

you know it's actually cold? A cold? They're like the they're like the crypto bros of like, yeah, it was all just like a weird hunting culture. Yeah. I mean I think that like a a sedentary group of bats in the cave would be a colony. But I think if they're but I think if they're flying, I think you can call them a swarm. You could probably even call them a flock. I don't think anyone's going to arrest you for doing that. You get what I mean. A bunch of them, A bunch of them, a party,

a bat party. Um, So I want to talk about the wooly bats and picture plants, and they form this beautiful friendship. It is your typical meat cute bat meets carnivorous plant. Carnivorous plant and bat realize they are a lot in common, and next thing you know, the bat moves in with the carnivorous plant. So first of all, let's talk a little bit about the wooly bats. Are they as cute as they sound? Yes, yes, very much,

even cuter however cute you're thinking, very cute. They are found in East and Southeast Asia, and they're just a little fluffy, puffy guys. They way around a third of an ounce or less than ten grams and are basically, uh, this kind of grayish brown, flying little cotton balls with a pink little face and a couple of pointy ears. And they're this little cutiest ones ever. The proportions are so off, like the little face is so teeny tiny and the head is so big and poufy, and the

ears are also huge, so like everything looks ridiculous. It's Pixar. It's a little tiny bitty face, it is flying cotton ball, a little powder puff marshmallow man. Very cute, so like, who wouldn't fall in love um and indeed carnivorous picture plants. If they were capable of love, I'm sure would love these little guys not just because they are adorable and fluffy, but also for their excrement. So you have to truly love all of your partner right exactly, even their poops.

So in Him's Leanna is a tropical picture plant, which is a long green vase like plant, or if you prefer, kind of like a very tall and skinny urinal, and it is filled with digestive juices that smell kind of sweet, this attractive smell to insects like flies. But if the flies get in there and they slip down these slippery sides of the picture plant, they will fall into this pool of digestive juices. They will melt and the plant

will absorb the nutrients of the liquefy insect. So you know, kind of like you know Audrey too from a Little Shop of Horse, but fewer teeth, more digestive juices. Also, I think of the piranha plant from Um Super Mario Games. Yeah, like venus fly trappy, but yeah, again they don't really have These ones don't really have teeth like the venus

fly trap has those bristles. They just are like a big open mouth and in a like a jar of juice that you fall into and you dissolve, which isn't great like a starlack, a bit of a starlack situation. I think they're prettier than a starlock, to be honest. So what is this cute, adorable little bat doing in such a dangerous place as this plant starlac pit? Well, it is using it as a cozy little bed and also toilet. Uh, it's a great situation for these bats. So the wooly bat will roost in the at your

plant and just hang out there. It'll sleep there, hide from predators there. You can't really like once they fit in there, you can't really see the bat, and they'll poop right where they sleep, and it doesn't bother them because their poop falls down into the plant's digestive juices. So it's like a I mean, you know, it is the dream to be able to be in bed and not have to get up and go to the bathroom at night. Have you ever used a bed pan before?

I haven't. I can't imagine. It's a great experience. I have had to use them after childbirth, and it's it's not a great experience. It's not my favorite thing in the world. But that is, I'm sure because humans are not used to doing that, and it is a strange experience, you know, But if you're an animal who has done

that their whole life, it's nothing to you, right exact. Actually, I mean it's also like we when we sleep, we sleep sort of horizontal, right, and so you don't really have gravity helping us out there to like get the things away from us as they're coming out of us, and your body is fighting it. It's wrong. I don't like this, yeah, But with these bats, first of all, they don't have that sense of like I shouldn't be doing this. They know they should, and they're happy enough

to do it. Also, they're vertical, so they fit into the picture plant like it's this vertically hanging sleeping bag. And the picture plant loves these bats so much. They have actually co evolved with these bats to be the perfect shape for this bat to hang in, So the bat doesn't even need to grip onto the side of the picture plant. It just fits right in. If it's like a little sleeve, it's a little sleeve and it's

so bespoke for this bat. The bat won't fall into the digestive juices, so like the your plant kind of curves in such a way that it narrows a little bit, so the bat fits in just like poop, you know, and then uh does not slip down into the messy bit the like toilet bowl of it, uh and just kind of like fits into that snug slot. And then when they got a poop, they just poop. The poop falls down into the bowels of this picture plant and it's no problem for the bat, and it's just like

the PC. It's the perfect situation. So the legend of Amigara fault, Yes, this is my whole It was made for me. It was just slot right in it. Yeah. No, it's that that comic where that guy there, there's that cliff side with all the people shaped holes and then people are inexplicably drawn to it uh and try to go in their holes, and it's quite horrifying. It's fun I think it's funny. I think it's hilarious personally, But yeah,

it's one of those sort of unnerving gingeeto comics. But yeah, this one is a lot friendlier of a version of that because the little back goes in and it's just a little sleeping bag for these guys. And it's so cute. You just peek inside one of these picture plants and you see a little cotton ball going like what are you doing? And pops like get out a little warm hugs and pooping here and sleeping, and the plant is so happy about it. The plant is like, this is

great the plant. If the plant could feel emotions, it would be quite happy. So the plant, uh, this particular picture plant um. Now picture plants in general, and like carnivorous plants, they often live in areas where the soil isn't nutrient rich enough to sustain them, so they actually depend on uh insects, and the draw the insects to them. Insects fall into this trap and then dissolved. But that can be tricky, you know. Insects will develop strategies to

avoid them. They can be quick, they can and not you know, fall forth so easily. And so for these picture plants, they have actually come to develop this relationship with these bats where the bat poopies nourishes the picture plant. So while the picture plant may still feed on insects on occasion, these bat poops by like becoming the toilet for the bat. The bat is fertilizing the plant, and they have it's just this, you know, i'll scratch your back and all poop in your toilet sort of situation.

I'm sure that plant is just extremely thankful that it doesn't have taste receptors. Yeah, I mean, this plant is probably thankful. It's not conscious like to experience this. But yeah, I remember, like when I watched Little Shop of Horrors, Like the first time I watched it, I really wanted the uh, you know, the little sort of nebbish character

and the plant to be friends, you know what I mean. Like, I was kind of sad that it turned out to be an antagonistic relationship because it's like, yeah, you know if he if he eats like mean dentists, what's wrong with that? There is always like carnivorous plants are always the enemy, right, They're always the bad guy or the obstacle or something. There's never like good guy carnivorous plants. I would say in the There's that show, Harley quinn Um And yeah, and I actually I do like that show.

I helped out the one of the sound designers for the show, Jefferson Freedman reached out to me and I helped him find some bat sounds. So yeah, yeah, it's really fun. It's like I think night Wings like Emo sad Boy theme song, and we found some like really like silly sounding bats. Um. But yeah, there's the in that show. There's the carnivorous plant that I think poison Ivy's friend and he's cool. Yeah, you love to see it.

I think in encanto also during song that she's like, um conjuring like sun do ya sun do yeah, which is like a pretty carnivorous but she does make a mention of them like they're they're carnivorous. Yeah, they're not gonna their humans though, No, you're fine. But it was cool to see them though. Sun Do don't get a lot of attention. Yeah, yeah, no, they're they're beautiful. They they they have the like sparkling sort of globules on them that are quite quite pretty. So yeah, I mean

it is just I just love this. I love that, uh this picture plant in this bat have just come to such a nice living arrangement. Also, the in addition to sheltering the bat, giving it a comfortable little sleeping bag, to stay in. Uh, the waxy sides of the plant are very slippery, Like I mentioned, insects will just slide right down them, and it's inhospitable to insects and eggling insects.

So actually the bat is also protected from parasites. So like, you know, it's just in this like really nice, healthy kind of spa environment where it can also poop, and it's just it's you know, it's great. I don't think I've ever been as comfortable anywhere as this bat is not side of this picture plant. I'm I'm happy for them, and I want that for me. I do we should all aspire to lose vertical its vertical plant sleeping bags where we can freely poop. Yeah, I think that is

the future. It's the future. So I've occasionally talked about gorillas and chimpanzees on this show, and they are they're very complicated and almals, and I love them, but they're not as you know, they're not cartoon characters. You know, they're not as like funny and goofy as sometimes they're

portrayed in popular media. Although I think nowadays there's more recognition, especially with like the movie Nope of how scary, chimpanzees can be um, and I think, I mean it's funny because like gorillas are pretty universally seen as like, oh, they're big, they're aggressive and scary, but I think on average, gorillas are less aggressive than chimpanzees. Of course, grillas are bigger, they are more physically capable of tearing you apart, but

chimpanzees are quite good at that as well. Yeah, the gorillas, like I imagine them kind of like sitting serenely in like a like a grassy valley, like groomy each other, you know, Like I imagine more serenity when I think of gorillas. But chimpanzees are a little uh, they're they're a little more feisty. Yeah, Grillas are so Yeah, they are typically more chill. They can fight, like sometimes like if two silver silver backs, which are the dominant males,

are in direct competition, they can have quite serious fights. Um. And then there are very rare cases in which they kind of like unexpectedly will just turn on an individual and beat them up. There it's not really clear why they're doing that. We don't really speak guerrilla. There's probably some beef they have, but we don't we don't know what the beef is. Um. And so chimpanzees are typically a little bit more more frequently aggressive and and sort

of pugnacious. Uh, They're not, They're not always this way there. Sometimes can get along quite well, but they can do things like commit premeditated murder where they like stalk and gang up on individual that they don't like and like maul them. Uh. And so yeah, they can be quite diabolical. They can also be very loving. You know, they are complex creatures. They have like, you know, a wide capacity

for different behaviors. So the fact that both of these species can be quite fearsome means it sounds like if these two met in the wild, it would be a recipe for disaster. But in fact, what you see is that they can form friendships, which is really really strange and really wonderful. So in the Congolese rainforest at the Nobali Nyunki National Park, researchers have been observing the interactions between the chimps and guerrillas in this area and have

found that they seem to form these cordial friendships. So they will play together, they will eat together. Uh. When chimp spot some food like a bunch of ripe figs. They'll like hoot and holler and excitement, which alerts the gorillas who show up, and then they all kind of feed together and forge together. And the really really interesting thing is it appears that these interactions aren't just like tolerance where it's like, Okay, we won't fight, you know,

we'll just tolerate each other. They seem like actual friendships because the gorillas and the chimps will pick out individuals of the other species that they know and prefer to spend time with them. So they will form a friend like, Hey, I'm a chimp, and then hey, I know that gorilla. That's Nancy, and then we like hang out and I'm like, it's Nancy. Again, I like Nancy. And then they will actually specifically gravitate towards the individuals they know and form

like decades long friendships with them. I feel, as a human, I'm feeling such a sense of missing out on these inter primate like species friendships because now I feel like the guerrillas and the chimpanzees are hanging out without us, and now I'm like, we weren't invited and we don't have Like I don't have a guerrilla friend. I don't have a chimpanzee friend. Why are they all hanging out and we don't get to be part of it? Like, I feel kind of a sense of like there was

a party I didn't get invited. I mean a little bit. To be fair, the humanity did kind of fart in the elevator, and by elevator I mean the planet, and by farting, I mean uh, every industrialized Yeah, exactly. So you know they probably have a reasonable distrust of humans based on the fact that we will hunt them. Uh. So I I get it. I also have that fomo though, like what are they saying about us? I feel like uh squid word longingly looking out the window as Patrick

and SpongeBob are playing outside. I love that. But also, like when you I think about, like how uh like interspecies friendships with humans? I think of like we have like pets, right, like you have You might like dogs, but you like your dog more than other dogs, right, so you're like, this is my dog. I like this one. I'm going to hang out with this one. So I

bet it feels similar to that. I have a deeply flawed dog, and so I can recognize that there are better behaved dogs, and yet I have still somehow been suckered into loving her above all other dogs. I'm so glad I could. But you also have this experience of having a deeply problematic dog. Yeah. Yeah, she's got I mean, she's got issues. I understand her. Um, she's not always the most polite to other dogs. And you know, we've worked on this for many years and trained her to

a reasonable level of being at least somewhat you know, presentable. Uh, And yet she she's still she's still a little bit of little bit catty, a little bit judge, a little bit catty. Uh, and yet I still love her. Uh And right, It's like it's like I love this little dog, and yet she also will sometimes sparked directly into my ear, just like really suddenly and seemed to the light in in the in the grievance it causes me. Do you think that gorillas and chimpanzees both think that the other

is their pet? That would be funny. It's like, because I almost wonder. It's like it's a bit of a Mickey Mouse and Pluto situation, right, because like, wait a minute, you're both animals. What are you doing? Well? And then you throw goofy into the mix, right, You're like, why is this one your friend and the other ones your pet? What's going on? Exactly? Yeah, no, no, no, this this doesn't this isn't right, this doesn't make sense. But yeah,

that would be. Yeah, I mean, like maybe maybe they It's like they're sort of a mutual pet situation going on here, you know what I mean, Like when a cat and a dog hang out, and like they probably both sort of considered the other to be their companion pet. And yeah, well, I was gonna say, like, you know, typically, uh, something that we talked about a lot on on our podcast is like, don't keep wildlife as pet, especially primates. Yeah, they will carry your face off. And this happens so

often with chimpanzees. People get a chimpanzee and then you know, later inevitably the thing tries to kill them later in life, um, and often succeeds in doing so. But I was gonna say, like, if you're going to have a pet chimpanzee, you have to be a gorilla exactly. That's the only way to have a pet chimpanzee is to be a gorilla. You

have to be bigger than them, right, absolutely. I mean, like, first of all, you're both living in the same environment, so you don't actually have to take them away from their natural environment. Uh, and yeah, you are literally a gorilla, so you can take that. Yeah. And so that is like the only exception of the no chimpanzee as pets rule if you happen to be a gorilla, right. I mean it's funny because people will see a baby chimpanzee, it's like adorable, and they often are and they do

actually bond with humans because they're highly social animals. So when you deprive them of their natural social group, they will form bonds with the humans around them. But then they hit adolescence and then they hit adulthood, and it's a human going through adolescence. And like a teenager might like cuss at you and roll their eyes at you, but a chimpanzee is gonna like tear your eyes out of your face. Yeah, will murder you, right exactly. So

you know, teenagers versus like a teenage chimpanzee. Um, teenager is less dangerous I would say emotionally though they know they can. They definitely know how to kill shot you. Emotionally, teenagers they are really good at that like calling you out on like, wow, you're still parting your hair that way. It's like I didn't even think of that. I wasn't insecure about that, you said, so you actually new insecurity.

I feel like teenage I don't know, like I feel like teenagers of are like the Zoomer teenagers are very nice kids. I don't know. So I work at a youth center, like with teenagers, um, like around teenagers. I don't do client facing work, but um, the teenagers that you know, I see it work are incredible. They're amazing. They're nicer than I feel like we were when we were teenagers. So you guys are, yeah, teenagers the ones

that I've worked with. Of course, you know, you never generalize to all people, but the teenagers I have worked with personally are incredible, wonderful. I mean, I feel like I want to break the cycle of inter generational complaints of like teenagers these days. It's like, you guys are not vibe. I like your style and your music. It's all good. Yeah, it's great. Y'all are killing it, um not not literally not like since yeah, which is which

is great. I was also thinking about, you know, like as a human I feel like I'm thinking about times when I've been at a zoo and I've seen other primates, like great apes, particularly like if you look in the eyes in the face of like a bonobo. Especially our zoo here in Jacksonville has an incredible bonobo habitat and they're gorgeous. There's a binobo there who's like fifty years old. Um, she's amazing. And when you really look at them, like

you have the sense of recognition with them. They they look so similar to you, and you feel the sort of connection to them as you're like you're like game recognizes game, sort of moment where you're like I get you, I get what you're about. So I'm wondering if that's like factoring into the gorillas and the chimpanzees being like cool with each other, Like they see each other and they're like, all right, ape squad, let's do that, Like

all right, we're good, We're good. It's interesting because yeah, I think that like when you have to two groups of like chimpanzees, they kind of know they might be in competition with each other's sexual competition, and that can ask like just like when two silver back gorilla as me it's like we're in competition, we're in sexual competition. But if you have a group of chimpanzees and guerrillas, as long as there's enough food around for everyone, they

aren't necessarily in competition with each other. So and then they probably somewhat I mean, their body language is going to be somewhat different, but they probably somewhat recognize it. I mean, you can't have two species whose body language ends up sort of matching in some way. Like dogs and humans, we get along really well because we can actually recognize our body each other's body language. In our co evolution, we've actually come to be become better at

recognizing each other's body language. I mean, some people still don't quite understand dog body language. Sometimes it's not exactly intuitive, like especially like when the puppy dog eyes, Like when a dog like looks up at you, it's called whale eyes where you can see the whites of their eyes and they're like looking. That often means that they're scared

or agitated and they're they're about to nip at you. Ah. But I read also recently, like I read that, Um, I'm sorry, I can't recall where I read this, but that like over time, dogs have actually evolved facial muscles to be more like more fine tuned so that they can make the same sorts of expressions that humans look for in each other, like eyebrows, like you look at

a wolf. Wolves don't have like those expressive eyebrows that have, but like dogs have like more fine tuned muscles in their eyebrows and eyes to like make more I focused facial expressions because that's what humans recognizing each other. Yeah, and we probably select for that because we like, oh, yeah, look like you have a good attitude, and we select

like those puppies. Uh And like they also dogs have evolved to like focus on our faces, like the sides of our faces that typically express more so that they can more sort of accurately assess, like what what our expression is. Uh So, yeah, I mean there's definitely definitely these kinds of inter specific um or intrust specific interactions where you have two species who can kind of learn each other's body language. And for yeah, for chimpanzees and gorillas,

it seems like they're capable of doing this. And as to why they form these friendships, I mean, it's not like researchers know, for a fact, they speculate there could be some benefits in terms of being able to use each other's skills and foraging, but honestly a lot of it just sounds like it's fulfilling for them, just like how we formed these relationship with dogs, and it is

mutually beneficial. Dogs get food, we get the sort of work that a dog can do, like guarding or shepherding, but also we just enjoy it like it's just fun. And I think we can't all we can't too often underestimate animals capacity for just doing stuff that's fun. Oh yeah, Like you see like dolphins, you know, doing flips and stuff for fun. And you know all sorts of critters out there that just do stuff for fun, especially primates. So you know, you can't science away everything. Yeah, so

they just let them have some joy. They're just frolicking together, holding hands. What do you thinking about. It's so cute, it's precious. What are you thinking about? Oh, just girla stuff. Oh my gosh, you know, I just thought about because of how they both have, you know, hands with long fingers and opposable thumbs, they could totally hold hands. They could totally hold hands. Yeah, they could lock fingers the whole deal. They could they could hold hands this big

a big friendship handhole a lot. You know, it's too bad, Like I feel like friends don't hold hands as much anymore, or maybe they never think for yourself more hand holding,

more platonic hand holding. I read that um in uh more like Middle Eastern, like Arabic cultures, holding hands is like a platonic Like if you're walking down the street having a conversation with somebody, especially down like a busy, crowded street, you would hold their hands just to like avoid being like you know, uh, I suppose like shoved away from each other's right. That's a more common thing. I think that's a Western thing, to deserve hand holding

for romance. Yeah, I mean as kids we used to hold hands too, like thing maybe more. I mean also, I think there's some bit of like, uh weird masculinity stuff about it where it's like, ah, you know, adults slash men can't hold hands, boys can't hold hands because it's you know, there's something like because because I mean, I think like a adult women hold hands more platonically. I think an adult men do um. But then we all need to be holding hands. We need to be

holding hands with chimps and gorillas. We need to be having our arms ripped off by the chimps and gorillas because we kind of deserve it to to learn a lesson. But it for that brief moment where we were holding hands in harmony, it'll have been worth it. So one, you promised me a surprise, tentaclely surprise, and I'm excited. Yes, okay, So my little surprise for you is a behavior, uh that is that has been seen in an octopus called

the day octopus or the reason octopus. Yes, and the uh scientific name is Octopus ciannia, which is like, how do you get the genus name octopus? Like how did you? How did you? Like? That's like when you have like an email address that's just your name with no like numbers or anything like that in it. It's like, how did you get that? My Twitter name is just my name, Katie Goldna. Amazing. You had to be the first one

in there and the octopus of Twitter. Yeah, So Octopus ciannia is uh, you know, octopuses are predatory, right, so they'll hang out in a coral reef or something like that and kind of hide and weight or chase things down through the nooks and crannies. Octopuses are very Gucci's like, like they have like a sort of non Newtonius formula, Yes, very you know. They they got no bone, soft body,

extremely soft bodies, so they can squeeze into tiny little spaces. Um. But still, even though they're very good at doing that, being a predator is still a tough job as it is literally anywhere. So a lot of times predators will team up to work together in the hopes that like they can kind of make up for each other's weaknesses

at a predator as a predator. So a really famous example here in the USA is these tag teams that will pop up of coyotes and badgers and we're talking to yes, we've talked about it on the show before. The teamwork of coyote and badger. Um they find little burrowing mammals like ground hogs and just like one badger digging them up on one end, coyote at the other end waiting for them to pop out. And it benefits both of them because these poor like gophers or groundhogs

don't have anywhere to go. They just they have to pick one right out of the frying badger into the frying coyote and it's really cute to like there was a trail some trail camp footage of them walking together and the coyotes like jumping around really excited. Yeah, let's go, let's go, let's go, And then the badger is just

trundling along like that. It's like every like Disney movie duo, you've yeah, and a lot of friendships where you have like one person who's a little more low energy and then you have like the higher energy and you know

like their friends. Yes, so exactly like that, this sort of like count like completion between the relationships of the two predators who have kind of drawn a truce and have agreed to hunt together, with the understanding being that maybe you know, in that hunt you might get the ground The coyote might get the groundhog in one hunt,

but the badger might get the next one. Right um, but total, in total, the both getting more groundhogs than they would alone, right yes, because you know, rather than leaving one opening for the prey to escape and survive, now they've closed it off so guaranteed that one of them is going to get it. So this happens in the ocean too. The day octopus has been known to team up with predatory fish on the reefs. Are one that they team up with a lot so um whatever

they're hunting with. Basically how it works is the fish that they're hunting with hunts around and above the reef. So the predatory fish, like a grouper, is kind of like patrolling above the reef, and while it's doing that, the octopus is squeezing through the rocks and the coral um like into the nooks and crannies and kind of chasing the prey that's hidden in there. So the prey

then has two options. They can try to wiggle through the nooks and crannies where the octopus is very very good at catching them, or they can try to get out of the reef where the group or it is waiting for them, um or whatever type of predatory fish. It's not exclusive to grouper, but whatever large fishes is hunting with the octopus will be hanging out above. So, you know, it's like this, It's exactly like the badger and coyote thing. You know, the prey is basically flushed

out of the reef. Um. So if the prey is scared enough of the fish, they'll stay in the reef where the octopus can get it. So this is the thing about this strategy that like made a bunch of headlines pretty recently, the octopus being extremely intelligent. Like octopuses have reputations for being like unfathomably smart. Um, they have come up with some strategies to sort of actually exert

more control over their hunting partners. So if they feel like, if the octopus feels like the fish is starting to take more of its fair share of the prey, like maybe the fish keeps getting the prey over and over again, the octopus hasn't really gotten very many. UM. I cannot in this any better than the researchers did. So this is just a quote directly from the paper. UM. And the paper by the way, I'm not going to read

the paper title yet because it gives it away. They say, here, we report a series of events dating between the first of October, the first of November and the tenth of May. In the tenth of July nine where different Octopus Ciannia individuals engage in and I'm putting air quotes around this active displacement of partner fish during collaborative hunting. To this end, the octopus performs a swift explosive motion with one arm directed at a specific fish partner, which we refer to

as punching disciplinary yeat. They that is science talk for throwing. Like they just immediately go bound and just like pop the fish. And there's it's the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. Um And now that I've said that, I can say the paper title Octopuses punch fishes during colle through specific hunting events. Um. And that was by that was by Eduardo Sampayo at all, and that was

in Ecology in December. Um. So they do also kind of suggest a few possible motivations because they're like, this octopus is over here just deck in fish like in the face, and it's a very boxing boxing gloves on each one of its tentacles. Yeah, it's like ready to go. You can catch all eight of these hands basically. And they're like, it's a weird thing that they're doing because they're not doing it to like kill the fish or like eat them. It's not a predatory thing. They're just

bopping them. And so they suggest a few possible motivations. One is just moving the fish over, like the fish is getting a little too close to the prey. They're possibly just moving the fish, um, so that they can then take the prey that they feel entitled to write, it's just shoving them out of the way. Um. It's it's kind of like, um, if you are reaching for a cookie on a table and you see somebody else

reach for the same cookie, yeah, Grandma's spoon. No. Yeah, but but more so so that you can be the one to get the cookie, to keep them away from it all together. So yes, um. And then but the paper also mentioned that a lot of times the octopus would punch the fish and then not take the prey. So it seemed to not be about that the octopus would just hit the fish and it wasn't about getting

the prey. So they suggested to explanations that are derived from game theory, which is the study of like strategy and situational interaction, so like the ways that you can manipulate a situation to gain the best advantage. And this is another quote from the paper, because this is probably one of my favorite scientific papers I've ever read in my life. So I'm just going to pull another octopus

punch punches fish. The paper octopuses punch fishes is the most like incredible three first three words of a paper title, I love it. I can't I love it so much? And so they say. So this is the two like explanations that they're offering for the fish punching behavior. They say in the first one, benefits are disregarded entirely by the octopus, and punching could be a case of spite.

They say, no emotional connotation used to impose a cost on the fish, regardless of self cost, for example, after defection, which is stealing prey by a usually collaborative partner. So maybe if they're like, hey, we have a good thing going. We know each other, things are going good. We've hunted together many times, and things are going great. If that fish starts to like take a little more like and and take a little bit more of the octopus's prey,

they'll punish them. It's punishment. It's like boom, like here you go. Uh. If you keep taking my prey away from me, it's going to hurt you. So it's like it's like training. They're like shurting them with like a negative reinforcements. As we know with training dogs and fish, positive reinforcements the way to go. But it is but yeah, it's interesting because it reminds me a lot of the

cleaner rass um dynamics. So there are these cleaner rass, which are these little fish that will clean off the parasites from other fish, and other fish will like line up and like it's a fish car wash. But there the fish could attack the cleaner rass right and try to eat them because they're smaller fish, or the cleaner rass could try to eat the mucus coating on the fish. So fish have this protective mucus coating. It makes them kind of slimy. It protects their skin, but it's also

protein rich and I guess delicious to these rasses. So they will punish each other based on who is cheating. So if a fish tries to attack a rass, the rass will kind of boycott this fish. If one of the rass tries to bite a fish that it's cleaning,

fish will boycott that rass. Sometimes rasses will be punished by another rass if they catch that rass cheating, like trying to eat some mucus they'll like like sort of just like nip at the cheating fish, being like, hey, that's not how we do business around in these parts. So there's a bit. Yeah, and so I think it's for And these are just like these fish that are I mean, they're intelligent, but certainly not as intelligent as

an octopus. So I can certainly see an octopus like doing this out of spite, wanting to teach this other fish a lesson of like hey man, that's not cool, and just punching them. It's their way of like enforcing a social contract they with each other. Right, It's like the octopus understands, like I need to communicate with this

thing in a way that it will understand. It will understand pain, So I'm going to punch it, right, or even even just like even if the fish isn't in pain, just sort of the shock of paying, you know, punched in this way of like whoa what was that? You know? Like it Yeah, So it introduces this like dynamic of manipulation into the friendship between the octopus, because it's not like the octopus like stops hunting with the fish, right, it's just like a little a little hey, get yourself

in line. Um. They even they had another explanation that they suggested for the behavior that it could also be a flex to keep the misbehaving partner in line. So basically as a reminder like hey, I could take you down any moment like you were on thin ice pal. It's basically like, don't mess with me. I'm a big octopus. I could definitely, you know, one shot you if I wanted. Here's a taste. Um, it's just a culture, it is.

It sounds very like I can't pretend to have ever um been like a dude in a locker room at a tip. It's not a situation I've ever been in, but I haven't either. Based on movies that I've watched about the situation, I had to assume that there's quite a bit of um jostl ng, maybe some natured ribbing. It's like a towel flap. Yeah, And it's shaped the same way right like you know when you twist up the towel and it's got that point g end on.

It just kind of looked like the tentacle. We're just we're just going towards octopus, I think, which would be nice. I think, honestly, like they seem to have a lot

figured out. So although I do think that if we do continue on the octopus word trend, I hope that we don't also adapt their manipulative friendship stress because they're just like decking fish to get their way basically, um, which is like just really fascinating because not only are they cooperating and interacting with other species in like a non confrontational way, um, but they're also having to communicate with them like displeasure, like I don't want you to

do that. Here's something different I want you to do, and like correcting the behavior, which I've never heard of any other animal like doing that, like correcting another other than other than what you just told me about the cleaner rasses. Um. That they're just like hey, another sec because like within the species, they like animals will often do that like dogs and will will nip in each other.

You know, they're like there's a lot of sort of like hey, like animals that are in group dynamics, there's nipping, slapping, you know, kinds of behaviors to like correct other animals that they live with of their own species, but to correct another species is a lot more rare because you don't often animals don't form these relationships with other species

and communicate with them. Yeah, and you have to like speak their language basically, you know, you have to understand what they're going to respond to and what they'll understand. So I think it requires a very high degree of like comprehension on the octopus's part. And also they're just mean, like like they're just so rude. I mean, I feel I feel like I on what sympathized with this octopus though. The octopus has this grand plan and then the fish is just messing it up and it's sort of like

a three stooges situation. So it does get very slapstick very quick. I'm not saying I'm saying use your words, not your fists. But octopuses don't have words, so what are they going to do? I know, even if they tried to say something, the fish wouldn't be able to hear it underwater. You ever tried to talk underwater, It doesn't get across so good. And their fists are very squishy, so it's kind of like a sock um bopper. Yeah. I can't imagine that it's typical that it's very like

injurious to the fish. I'm probably not because because that's not how octopuses fight, right, Like, it's just not the way that they like hunt prey or anything that they've got. Yeah, like they could if they really wanted to hurt this fish, they would grab them and then bite a chunk out of them with their hard kiteness beak. But they have ways to actually hurt the fish. Rice is very much like a very bapecific behavior that is like only for

the purpose of, you know, keeping their fish friends in line. Right, And I'm not saying you should bap your friends, but if you're an octopus, I'm not going to judge you for bap and your friends. If you're much like you have a free pass to have a chimpanzee pet. If you're a gorilla, you are literally a gorilla. And I don't mean like gorilla. I'm not talking about grilla mindset where it's a grilla grindset where it's you know, you're at the gym on steroids. That's not on. You have

to be the species gorilla gorilla. Yeah, exactly, gorilla gorilla. Or if you're a western lowland one, I believe that's gorilla gorilla gorilla. Oh, nice. You could be one of those. Like any amount of gorillas that you are, you get you get to have a chimpanzee as a friend. Uh, Ellen, that was a delightful story that I had not heard of. So I really appreciate that. I love octopuses. I'm so happy to hear that they're punching fish, and I love

that there's a paper publish. It's like octopushes punch fish. It's such a joyful paper too, because, like you know, it is of course, you know, everything is is phrase the way you're supposed to phrase things in scientific papers. But they're just these little moments where like the personality of the papers shines through. They're definitely having fun, yet they're having the time of their lives, and like you just get these little glimmers of joy in these papers,

which is so like exciting for me. They have to try to keep it professional, but you know they're just giddy. You know, they're punching the fish. Did you'll see that? It's crazy? Can you imagine being the first person to see that? And you're like, are you sure better than the moon Landing's my personal moon landing? My personal moon landing? Yes, Well, before we go. We gotta play a little game. It's called the Gifts Who's Squawking? The Mystery Animal sound game.

Each I play a mystery animal sound and you the listener, and you the guest, try to guess who is squawking. The rules is it could be any animal in the world, and that's it. You gotta guess it. So last week's mystery animals sound hinted was this. It's a fashionisto with a great sense for what look is in season. So ellen, any guesses what a sound? Um, it sounds like some type of fowl, like a like a gallinaceous spurred perhaps, as I learned very recently, is the word something related

to like a chicken or a turkey? Um, I'm thinking maybe a be a pheasant of some kind. Pheasant. It's very interesting. Yeah, it does. It sounds like a peacock to me, or like a pheasant, but in fact, entirely different animal is the Arctic fox. So yes, foxes sound so funny. They do not like whatever sound you think like a fox should make, like when it makes it and it's like, now that should be coming out of you, little guy. What's going on? So yeah, yeah, exactly, but

it is indeed the Arctic fox. Uh. The Arctic fox is found in the Arctic uh, and it needs to blend in with the white snow so it can be an effective predator of small mammals like wolves and also avoid predation by larger animals like wolves, bears, even golden eagles. Uh. So, Arctic foxes are little guys. They're only around three to seven pounds or one point five to three kilogram you know, kind of like bluffy chihuahua's um. And they are not

always white. They change their coats with the seasons. In the summer, they're brown with sort of a shorter coat to blend in with the earth. And in the wind her they grow this white, fluffy coat both for the warmth and to camouflage themselves against the white snow. And they will listen very carefully for little mammals hidden deep underneath the snow, and then once they have pinpointed where they are, they'll do that adorable little hop up and then down and just kind of like face plant right

into the snow to grab their prey from above. I think, sing, yeah, that sounds like it, you know, like pronking is actual. Yeah. Yeah, They sprawling and it's quite cute, um, but for the for the little voles and for these animals, it's it's quite alarming because it's basically this lump of snow suddenly coming alive with teeth and crashing into your roof. They're so cute, they are adorable, adorable. All right, onto this week's mystery animal sound. The hint is, am I asking

a lot for you to guess this sound. You know, it sounds like a grocery store cash register. That's it, the wild grocery store cash register. Ellen, do you have any guesses based purely on the clue, because I don't even know if this animal makes a sound, but if it did, I bet it would sound like that. I'm going to say you're absolutely correct, which means you're gonna have to duck quack over your answer, but people will

know you were right. We'll leave all this in so you can your victory will be known to the world. I've leaped out the correct response, but yes it is. I mean, I was shocked. That was my shot of redemption. I got it wrong last time I was here. Well that's my now, now you got it right. This was like if this one was a tricky one too, because this is like the first I didn't know that these

guys even made it sound like like you. And then I just came across this, it's like, well, all right, okay, you just make a little But now that I hear that, I'm like, yeah, that's what they would sound like. It makes sense. It makes sense. It makes so much sense, um and everyone. You will find out what that noises on next episode of Creature Feature. And if you think you know what it is, or if you have a question, or you want to send me pictures of your kitty

cats or your doggies. Not accepting pictures of your pet chimp because you shouldn't have one, it's gonna rip your face off. Unless you're a gorilla. If you're a gorilla, like a literal gorilla, and you've somehow mastered the art of email, then yes you can email me about that. It has to be a selfie with you in the picture to that you're also a gorilla exactly and holding up the day and the time. Um so a new days newspaper, right, the gorilla daily with the newspaper, so

I know. Ah, yeah, So you can send that to Creature Feature Pod at gmail dot com. Also on Twitter at Creature Feak Pod. That's f T not how is something very different on Instagram, although I need to get better at actually using Instagram, but maybe someday I will. And if you want to like lay and wait for once I become active on Instagram, it's Creature Future Pod on at Instagram. Um, and Ellen, thank you so much for joining us today. Where can the people find you?

Thank you so much. I am on social media. I have um personal uh Twitter and Instagram, and we are I suppose I should direct people more so to our podcasts, uh you know, social media presences, because that's more of what I used. I'm not a particularly interesting person on my own about my podcast is. So we have you know, on Instagram where just as of us pod, Twitter, we're just just the zoo of us. We have a discord server which is really really fun. Everybody in there's really

really nice. The Facebook group everybody's also super nice on their um so just the zoo of us if you are an animal lover. I also have a grand new podcast that that Katie has has recorded with me that it's not I don't know if both taking out if you um, but um, you know it's that is kind of brand new, but it's all about all the weird, gross, creepy, strange, um, all the weird stuff that you don't normally get to info dump about at your typical dinner table. But that

one is not safe for work. That's not for kids, um, adults only for that one. And that one is called Spellbound and Gag. That's also on Twitter and Instagram, Facebook, so come follow along if you like animals and weird scientists stuff. I think they probably do, so that was a recommendations and Jennin because because Katie came on, Katie is going to be on an upcoming episode of Spilled Down and Gagged about Paris. It's nice. Yeah, I think you'll like it. I enjoyed myself, so I think you

will too. Thank you guys so much for listening. If you're enjoying the pod and you leave a rating or review, I deeply appreciate, deeply, deeply appreciate it. Um. I read all of the reviews, by the way, and if you ask a question in the reviews, I will actually include those in my listener questions episodes, So I I appreciate that immensely and thanks so much to the space Classics for their super awesome song Exo. Aluminous Creature features a

production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or Hey guess what? Where? Have you listen to your favorite shows even if you're a little bat pooping in a picture plant and you're listening to it on like the Picture Plant Network. I that's great, that's good, I don't care. See you next Wednesday.