Doctor Spider MD

your doctor with a spider? Joining me today is friend of the show, co host of Ethnically Ambiguous, and producer at iHeart Radio, An A. Hose Ny. Welcome back. Wow, thank you so much for having me. I am an animal and a doctor. It's true. I know it. I once had a broken arm and and I just kind of bited a bit and it actually worked. It's I mean, it's still broken, but I'm sure it did something. Thank you. Yeah, you know, I I really um, I used my web. Yeah, the web that comes out of my butt, and I

ditched you right up or wrapped you right up. Yeah. As you know, the web does come out of the button. It actually comes from a specific web producing gland called a spinneret. But you know, we could just say, but and who's gonna Who's gonna stop us? The Spider police? Oh god, I hope not. Can you imagine? No, I refuse to imagine. I refuse to imagine being arrested by

the Spider police. I will not have it. Imagine how many handcuffs you need though for a spider perp, Just like, all right, put your hands behind your back, and those hands too, and also those hands and also those hands and those hands to Yeah, I mean I think, um, you might do better with just a like a lasso type sort of like wrap all up over the head because bolo, or like an overturned glass and a piece

of cardboard. That's probably how Spider cops do it. Like put them under a piece of glass and put like newspaper, stiff stiff paper under it, and then put them outside, which is spider jail. Outside of spider jail. Yeah, you're right, outside world? Is there jail? They live in a perpetual jail until they can get into our homes and be safely try sported out right exactly? Well, uh, Spider Justice System ASIGN. We are talking about animals today who are

their own doctors. There, we may think that as humans we have a monopoly on medicine and being smart and treating ourselves with pharmacology and medicine, and actually it turns out that no, we are not unique in this manner. In fact, animals have come up with many ways to help treat themselves to some medicine, and it can be very interesting and counterintuitive. So first we are going to talk about a behavior known as anting. Are your kids doing aunting? Do you know? Have you seen your kids?

Have you talked to your kids about aunting? Yes? Just joking. I have no idea what it is? Is this when a group of ants get together and cause a ruckus? Uh? Yeah, I mean that's actually called like and and anti rama. But aunting is actually the behavior of rubbing ants all over your body, and it's a huge trend on TikTok I don't actually know. I don't own a TikTok so. I assume though, I just assume that anything that has any like, any kind of action you could take is

a trend on TikTok so. Rubbing ants all over your body probably a TikTok trend. I assume. Wow, you know, um, you're probably right. I do own a TikTok, but I have not um scrolled to the like point of no return where people are rubbing ants on them. It's there, should start it, then you should do it. You'll get Yeah, you'll get a lot of ticks. Is that how TikTok works? Yeah, it's interesting. TikTok get talked a lot. It starts to learn what you like very quickly. It's very intelligent. If

you will, we should all be scared. Yeah. Yeah, I don't tend to stay on like animal well sure pet I do, but like animal like further insect related content. So it could potentially take me almost a year to get to like people covering themselves and ants. I mean I think I could probably get there much quicker you would get there. Probably in the first swipe they'll be like this, lady, my my four me page will just be covered with ants. And that's how I like it.

So aunting is a behavior done by a variety of animals, but especially birds those freaks. So certain species of birds engage in anting, so rubbing ants all over their feathers and skin. They will sometimes pick them up with their beaks and rub like an individual ant over a feather, or sometimes they roll around and let them walk all over their wings if they really just want to get the full ant experience, So are they just freaks? Like do they just like to do this because you know,

it's a it's a it's a TikTok trend for birds. No, so it is wildly popular among birds. It's thought that over two hundred species of birds engage in anting, which is astounding. So something is clearly going on. Now I'm starting to be like, Okay, if that many birds are up to anting, have I ever witnessed this? Or is this kind of like a private thing they do. Yeah,

it's a it's only found in private bird lounges. And if you're not a v I a very important avian, you are not allowed behind the velvet rope for anting. Uh No, I mean if you've ever seen a bird preening or a bird rolling around in the dirt, you may have witnessed a bird engaging in anting. So the theory is that ants release formic acid, which may act as a natural anti mite, antibacterial ointment that perhaps helps rid the birds of topical parasites or even fungal infections.

So there's another theory though, that the act of anting is actually to prepare the ants for being eaten, so by rubbing them all over their feather they encourage the ants to release that formic acid and that makes them edible. Because if you want to eat an ant and it's full of formic acid, that's you know, it's not great. It's not a great taste. So it is not exactly completely understood which of these theories are correct. But here

is the forms of anting that birds do. So it can range from passive anting where birds will roll around in an ant hill, or active anting where a bird carefully picks up a single ant with its beak and rubs it along a feather. So the birds can be extremely particular, only using one ant per feather, and some species of birds are impatient and we'll grab like a big bundle of ants all at once and rub them into their feathers like a big glob of writhing sunscreen.

So it yeah, it is such a such a common behavior and such an interesting behavior among birds that it must serve some kind of important purpose for them, even if that purpose is just fun. There's a theory that anting is just for stimulation. Personally, I think like just like, hey, this is a fun like massage, you know, it's it's fun to be covered in ants. I don't know if you've ever tried it. But no, no, no, that seems like a literal nightmare. I don't think that's something I

could get into for stimulation or any other reason. I mean, you know, but like if you got if you got them on your back, it's like a billion little tiny masseus is all, you know, working out those knots and your muscles with their mandibles. No, am I not selling this? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, Katie, I don't don't. I don't think I'll ever come around on this one. Well I could probably sell this to a bird though, because they love it so uh the the the anting.

My my feeling on this from what I've read is it seems like it is a combination of both the birds getting the food, being able to basically make these ants edible by making them excrete their formic acid, and in addition the added perk of the hygiene. So I

think it's both. I think they are they have found a system that gives them both a good scrub down and gives them a good snack, which is like being able, like using sort of a sugar scrub exfoliant and then eating it, which in some sense kind of sounds disgusting, but in another sense efficient. I actually, you know what, God, if I ever found myself eating an explian scrub h, I guess I'm not that above it. I'm not gonna lie. I'm just not gonna lie. So I'm not gonna say anything.

If you've never been saying, know how they like put those cucumber slices on your eyeballs in a spot. I've never been to a spa where they put cucumber slices on your face, which seems like I should at some point. It seems like that's what you're supposed to do to treat yourself, but I would be tempted to eat them. Cucumbers are delicious. That feels like like a pop culture trope in movies, like when women or men are spas, they always take it off and go like, what's the

cucumbers supposed to do? Right? Like on your eyes? Um? Does it make you see better? What I mean, I'm assuming I'm actually literally going it. Why I put cucumbers on to soothe and reduce puffiness and dark circles on the skin. Why cucumbers though, When cucumbers there's some kind of like it says when they become dry, cucumbers can

offer a hydrating effect reducing dryness and redness. Seems like you could use any moist vegetable then, right, I don't know, I but cucumbers seemed like they're like a miracle veggie, isn't it? When they should I get pickled, they become a pickle. That is true. They do become pickles when they get pickled. Uh, that that that is But I assume you can't put pickles on your eyes because that seems like that would be burn Yeah, bad for the eyeballs.

Well in that case, right, yeah, Well, personally I don't want to put vegetables on my eyes. That's a personal preference. How However, birds do like to double dip in terms of using the exfoliating ants as food and vice versa.

Potentially this is this is the theory I think is most most likely because it seems like if you wanted to just eat the ants, you wouldn't roll around in an ant hill um and there they have been recorded eating these ants as well, so we know they do eat them after they engage in anting, so I think it is probably combination. There is also a theory that this formic acid that the ants kind of excrete like little tiny tubes of toothpaste, actually also works as a

shampoo for the birds. It might help them cleanse old oil on their wings and help it be replaced with new oil, just like when you shampoo your hair, right, which, yeah, I don't. I'm not saying put a bunch of ants in your hair. That is not what I'm not not saying it, but legally speaking, I'm not saying. But I'm also legally speaking not not saying it. The point is, it's your scalp and your choice with respect to ants. My choice, my scalp, right, exactly, Sorry, ants, your scalp.

Is that why birds are so moisturized looking, that they have such a healthy sheen? Maybe because they're just rub it, they got the ant on them. Yeah, maybe she's born that. Maybe it's a bunch of ants. Maybe she's born with it. Maybe it's a bunch of ants. Oh my god, you're onto something here, Katie. Do you think is there aunt shampoo already? If they're so moisturizing, look, it up. Do

you know what I thank you? You know, I was in a beauty store to enhance my beauty and there was a shampoo or some kind of thing that had like Goat plus Santa in it. I'm gonna say so. I've also seen and I did not buy that one. I have also seen snail slime moisturizer. I did try that. Uh it was I guess moisturizing. I didn't. I think it was more moisturizing than just lotion. But the point is I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there was some kind of like aunt scrub. I'm not out seeing it

when I look it up. I hesitate to even give the cosmetic industry this idea, because you know they're gonna start getting ants involved in their schemes to make everyone feel insecure, like they have to buy a bunch of cosmetic products. It's like, hey, you think you're pretty, No, you gotta put ants on your face. Now that's the trend. Yeah, no, I'm not saying it. I do see a lot of people complaining that ants got to their sugar scrubs, but

in their baths. I mean, if you're gonna if you're gonna put sugar out there, ants are gonna get to it. It's just it's the law. It's the law. It's the law. It's the law. So right. So birds don't just rub ants all over themselves, the little weirdos. They also rub things like millipedes, or they can even use man made things that have a toxin in them, like mothballs or even cigarette butts, which seems to indicate to me that

they are definitely trying to do some kind of grooming. Now, obviously, cigarette butts are not ideal, nor are mothballs, but they are both somewhat toxic to MIT's other parasites of fungus, so it seems like the birds are engaging in a behavior where they are doing some form of grooming. Now. I don't know if the birds do eat the cigarette butts after they wipe themselves down with it, but I certainly hope not because that would be bad for their health.

Why the cigarette butts? Now, I don't know too much about cigarettes because I'm a good girl and I don't smoke because I listened in elementary school and they told me just say no. So I don't really know what chemical is in cigarettes that be bad for the for the topical mites or fungus, but I'm assuming they're generally toxic they have that. I mean, the ash might help as well, because it's a descant. It's very dry. Actually, I think originally soap is like fat mixed with ash

can form a soap sort of acidic scrub. So I could see how cigarette ash might actually be that's mixed in with the bird's oils and its feathers. It may create some kind of like more or sorry, not acidic, I think, a basic scrub, and so that may have some kind of shampooing effect. Again legally speaking. Morally speaking, I'm not saying you should rub yourself down with cigarette butts actually don't do that, and I don't think birds

should do it either. It's just that when we put a bunch of garbage in the world, birds are going to try to use that garbage. It's you know, that's how it is. Question is a part of it also that it helps add a kind of a smell that could potentially throw off a predators sin. I mean, that's

an interesting idea. Birds don't have a great sense of smell, but I mean certainly predators of birds do, so things like, um, I mean anything from domestic cats to you know, snakes probably do have I mean, snakes have a chemosensory organ that they could and that's why they flick out their tongues. But birds don't have a great sense of smell, so I'm not sure if the birds would like be able to sniff out whether that thing would help them get

rid of a smell. But it could be, right, Like, it could be that by rubbing themselves down with something, it could throw off or deter predators. I haven't actually seen that theory, but it's not a bad idea. I feel like I've I've heard that somewhere, probably your show about something I don't know. Isn't that what they do? Like if there's certain like I actually don't. I just don't really know where I got that from, But I feel like it isn't that like dogs or cats will

like rub themselves on weird ship for that reason. That's true. Yeah, cats will, I mean scenting like rolling around in certain sense is very common with with dogs, and cats will certainly like mark you with their scent. You know, when they like rub up against you, they are they're marking you as their property. And so yeah, no, it's it's it's birds kind of live less of a nasal life than say a dog. A dog lives a very smell smelly life. A lot of their cognition is based on smells,

whereas with birds not so much. It's more based on vision or hearing. But that's not to say that they couldn't sort of chance into like, hey, we gotta when we do this, maybe they they have association of Maybe they're by changing their odor using sort of some um part of their environment that could deter predators. But that's also actually a reason you may have heard like you shouldn't touch a baby bird because if you get your smell on it, the mother is going to reject it.

That's absolutely not true. You shouldn't touch a fledgling because if you see a bird that has a good amount of feathers on it, but it's kind of like it looks sort of like a baby, but it it's fully feathered, that means it's a fledgling and probably just learning how to fly. But if you see a nestling where it's you know, there's like very awkward looking nude little birds without many feathers, you can't pick it up, and if you pick it up and put it back in its nest,

that's perfectly fine. Just wash your hands afterwards. Yeah, I've heard so much of if you touch this animal, it's family will abandon it and you will have become a person who has created orphans with and the animal kingdom, and you are a bad person. So how could you that little baby bird had or animal now have to survive on its own and you've ruined its life. Yeah, there's a lot of misconceptions about that. Generally speaking, animals will not abandon their young just based on like catching

a whiff of human on them. I mean there. I think like some of the myth may come from a misunderstanding of what's happening. Sometimes people will find like a baby bird and they will put it back in the nest, and then it'll fall out again, and they think, oh, that's because it's mother is rejecting it because I touched it. It's like, No, it could be that it's sibling is pushing it out, which happens with some bird species. It could be that it's there's something wrong with it. Um.

So yeah, but it's not your smell. You you being smelling is not causing the problem this time, so question yes, okay, well I'm curious where that started, like the whole they'll abandon you, and does that mean that the fact that it's not true that animals are more loving of their children than it appears. So with birds, it's certainly not true because bird's sense of smell is just not great. They have one, they have a sense of smell, but it's not it's they don't really, it's not that sensitive.

And certainly a whiff of person on their chick is not going to make them abandon their chick. And in general, while there are a lot of species of animals that do you sent to detect their offspring, there is not. I don't think generally they will reject their offspring just because they smell. They have like a human smell on them.

Now I'm not sure, like if you could completely replace their smell with something utterly foreign and have no remaining smell, So like say you take a puppy and dogs are very smell based and you replaced its smell entirely with a completely foreign, strange smell like formalde hide what should be horrible. Don't do that, God, do not do that.

Then maybe like that would not like the mother might find that off and strange enough that they may abandon it, but generally speaking, they're not like just because there's like a little bit of a weird smell on it, They're not going to be like, oh, screw you, baby, You're

you're done, you're fired, You're fired as my baby. But there are things that can happen, like with baby dear fons, their mothers will sometimes leave them in a location and the fonds will curl up in a little ball and just hide there while the mom goes off to forage.

And you shouldn't move a baby fon like that generally speaking, because the mom is going to come back, and I think like if you move it and you try to like take it in, then the mom might just assume it's it's gone and leave and not be reunited with it. So there's some some truth to that, Like you shouldn't always interfere when you see a baby animal. Should definitely like, if you see a baby animal, the best thing to do is sort of consult your local rehabilitation wildlife rehabilitation center.

They'll know what to do because it can be very difficult, very tricky to take care of a baby animal. But yeah, in general, animal parents invest so much in their offspring. They're not just gonna abandon them at the drop of a hat. God, I really hope so, because it's such a devastating concept to think that you could be abandoned because of a scent. Scent of a woman. Wow, if you're too stinky, nobody, nobody will like you. That's horrible. No, look,

you know you can be stinky. It's fine. There's somebody out there who's gonna like that stink, you know. I mean people like weird stinky cheese, So they're gonna like stinky people, right. That tracks Anyways, I do want to mention before we move on that primates also engage in aunting. So the tufted capuchin monkey does like to rub themselves with ants, just like birds do, but they put a

little twist on it, and that twist is urine. Of course, they will combine ants and urine in a to die for body scrub that I think Lush is selling right now, just telling him, you know, go go to Lush. Don't do this because they're not actually sponsoring this. But the joke that I'm telling is, go to Lush and inter Creature for a coupon off of the urine ants scrub, which is a joke. Don't actually, that's not I'm not being sponsored. So I go to Lush and I get

this kind of creature scrub. I don't take any advice. Okay, I know what you're saying. Hey, Lush, if you want to sponsor the podcast, you know, look, I'm sure a bunch of people just went to your website desperate for that ant monkey urine body scrub. So some species of capuchin, such as the wedge capped capuchin, use millipedes who secrete toxic substance called benzo quinone, which is an insect repellent.

So the millipedes are such a popular skincare treatment that these capuchins will actually share a single millipedes, so they'll rub it over and then pass it on to another capuchin who will rub it all over their body. It's like you've ever been to the club. You guys are like sharing body glitter. This is not I'm sorry, I don't do that. I'm just trying to imagine the life of someone cool, and I would imagine it would be going to the club and sharing body glitter. I've never

done that. Is that a thing people do? Is that a thing cool people do? I mean, I feel like I knew people in college at the height of the Kesha era that we're doing a lot of body glitter doing it. Yeah, I know it's everywhere doing body doing hard, hard body glitter. But I was a good girl and I just said now to body glitter because that's what I was taught in elementary school. So it's it's interesting because just like body glitter, there can be a downside

to these remedies that these monkeys used. So white faced Capuchins, so they will often use a combination of plants and mud that works as an insect repellent. But if they cover too many of their features with the mud, their friends won't recognize them and they will become unfriendly and aggressive. So that is one of the dangerous of body glitter. If you use too much, your your friends are not going to recognize you at the club. They're gonna be

blinded and they're gonna attack you. And you know, Capuchin's it's the same thing, cap cap puchins. Sorry say Capuchin's captions. I say it both capucheons, Yeah, kucheons. I don't know, making me think of cappuccino. Well, I don't know the etymology of cappuccino. Maybe it's the same, but they're the capuchins are based on the compuchion monks because they monkeys kind of look like they've got a little little little monk hairstyle. Yeah, I'm always uh the excretion, that excretion.

You know, I'm really into skincare, and like I always see like really really surreal. I don't know, I it's not even surreal. You're pretty desensitized to it because you never know what's real. They're just like putting words on a bottle to make you spend more money. Dimetic couple lozzi zone can than Yeah, but don't be like this. This has like squaling in it or even like what you said about like the what is it the the what do they call it? The snail snail Like yeah,

like yes, snail slime. This has this is prawn milk in it and it exfoliates your ribosomes. Yeah, Like squaling comes from like I looked it up. It's it's originally obtained from shark liver oil. What it's pretty so real, like the kind of things that come from animals that we can put on our face to look gorgeous, to look good. Yeah, it worries me sometimes on account of I don't like the exploitation of nature. I do imagine though, like if you just rubbed your face on a live shark,

it would be very exfoliating because sharks. Shark skin is very sandpapery because of these microscopic structures called denticles, which are like these teeth like structures on it. So the snake skin is very rough or sorry, the shark skin is very rough. So not again legally speaking, not recommending you rub your face on a shark, but it would be very exfoliating. Although if the shark got mad and it actually bit you, that would be like maybe too exfoliating.

My insides would be explod Finally, no, my organs the ultimate exfoliation. My organs getting very exfoliated by these shark teeth. Yeah, gosh, I guess I'm curious what I'll start these animals excreening that I could put on my face. Well, maybe we'll find out after the break. That was a great transition, so Anna, I did say I was going to tell you more about things you can smear on your face, but I lied to you. Now we're going to talk about things you can eat and have go inside of

your body and do magical things. Legally speaking, don't do any of this. All of you out there, I know, like this stuff I'm going to talk about is very tempting. That you're going to go out to where these animals live, find these plants and then try to eat them. But don't. Don't do it. That's what the lawyer says. And you got to listen to the lawyer. He says, don't do it. I don't know. I just feel like I should do it.

That is your choice that I had no pardon. So chimpanzee ease pretty smart, right, But are they smart to make their own medicine? Yes they are. Sorry, I kinda I guess that's I spoiled it, but yes they are. So chimpanzees create their own time release capsules. So I I know about chimpanzee intelligence. I mean, like I'm not, you know, Jane Goodall, but I'm quite aware of how smart they are. But this surprised me. This seems just insane,

incredibly smart. So chimpanzees will carefully select the leaves of the Aspilia flower and instead of just eating them like normal, they will roll them around in their mouths until they form a pill and swallow them whole. So they will do this sometimes up to thirty times over to minute period, which when researchers noticed this, it's like, well, okay, this has to be something that there has to be some

significance to this because they're wild about it. And it turns out that the leaves have an oil in it that works as an antibiotic and could help kill harmful gut bacteria. And the most interesting part about this is that they don't just eat the leaves hole. They don't just like chew up the leaves and eat them. Uh. The fact that they roll them into pills means that they don't get digested immediately, so they don't get all

broken up inside their tommies. The leaves actually go through their gut partially undigested, so that antibiotic oil is released in the digestive tract rather than all in the stomach, and this may help alleviate intestinal distress and cramping, which is I mean, it's it's bonkers. I don't even know, like, how does any I don't want to get science sometimes or like insect life, Like, what is happening having these are chimpanzees. I don't want to clarify the insects I

call them. Sorry, I don't know why I said insect I just met animals in general and said insects because that's what my brain is at. I do love insects. Um, so you know, and we are going to talk about we are going to talk about actually questions since we're sorry, I don't I always think insects when I'm talking to you. But when okay, because I'm going to take it as with the chimpanzees. Um, if we are not or I mean, if we are not, I mean like evolutioniary we come

from a little evolution. I literally, yeah, evolution, we come from primates. Is this something we lost along the way? The ability to make medicine? Have you ever been to a doctor? I mean, I guess, but I guess. Is my body like still continuing to do that? I don't know. Here's the thing, Katie, I don't know what's going on in my body because I compartmentalized. I can't. I don't have the time to think about these things. I mean, like the fact, I mean we didn't evolve from chimpanzees.

They're a cousin basically of ours. We have a common ancestor. But the fact that chimpanzees seem to be able to create a medicine for themselves, uh, does make it a little more understandable how we have been like as a species of private that has become even more I mean this is that like our red blood cell, red red blood cells, Like how our red blood cells will come and like cover a scab or something. Is that like

creating this And I'm sorry, I'm so dumb. It's I mean that is that is our bodies healing on a microscopic level, and it doesn't have much to do with our behavior, but the it's the fact that these chimpanzees seem to But probably they're consuming these leaves because and doing it in this specific way because they have learned

over many years that this feels the best. So like they maybe they'll have some cramping or tummy upset, and they have learned that when they swallow these like roll these leaves up into a ball and swallow them whole, that it actually makes their tummies feel better, which is incredible, and it does make it a lot clearer how humans have been able to innovate so much in such a short period of time because we have human kind has only been around for uh you know, like we we've

we're basically a flash and the pan compared to a lot of other species who have been around many more millions of years than we have. But yeah, the fact that chimpanzees can come up with this method of being able to create these pills, then it's like, Okay, yeah, chimpanzees are really smart. So humans being able to create

modern medicine that kind of makes sense. And in fact, actually humans have used the same leaves that these chimpanzees use, the S. A. S. Billia leaves uh for some similar purpose. In central and eastern tropical Africa, it has been used for stomach aches, minstrel cramps, and malaria. And what's it really interesting is that, like humans obviously discovered the positive

effects of this plant on minstrel cramps and chimpanzees. It seems that females actually consume this plant more than males do, and chimpanzees, being related primates, are one of the only other animals that minstroid like humans do. Yeah, so they're like,

got a cramp, better eat the leaves. Also is this is kind of like holistic medicine, right, yeah, yeah, And I mean, you know, I'm a big proponent of of science and medicine, but there are a lot of medicines out there that come you know, come from nature, that are effective. It's just I think like it's tricky because the world of holistic medicine often kind of praise upon some not being kind of naive, right, so they'll try to sell you something that is essentially snake oil that

doesn't work. But that doesn't mean that there aren't things out there that. I mean, a lot of our medicine actually originated from the natural world, like aspir and I believe originated from tree like a tree bark kind of chemical. So so there are a lot of things in the

natural world that that can work is medicine. Uh and and you know, but it it is too bad because I think that a lot of that has become watered down by basically like if someone is trying to sell you something like sell you like some kind of natural remedy, and they don't have to prove to you that it works, then it you know, it's just kind of a it can be difficult to find things that are actually tested and actually do work. Do you think chimpanzees are anti vacs?

Is my question? Yeah, you know, I'd like to say no, But those little rascals I could also see them. I mean, like they like to throw their own poops, So I'm not going to say they don't necessarily go on Facebook, you know what I mean? Oh, yeah, you're yeah, Yeah, you're right. I mean I don't even. I guess it's hard to say with an animal or primate to be like, are they anti VAXX just because they eat leaves that heal their tummy aches? Yeah, I mean, one hand, I don't.

I don't know. I mean again, like, chimpanzees did not invent Facebook, so it seems a little unfair to pin this all on them, uh because like, if they invented Facebook, it would probably be mostly more based on smelling each other's like but and stuff like that, so which would be an improvement. I think. Sorry, I was just imagining a chimpanzee Facebook page. Uh, yeah, me too all the time. If I came across a chimpanzees profile on Facebook, I

don't think I would be that shocked. And I was also thinking this is a slight tangent, but like, and this is also maybe a dad joke, and so I don't actually apologize. I'm not sorry for it, but I am going to say it would Facebook for dogs be like butt book Facebook for dogs, because you're just sniffing butts, right exactly, Yeah, that's you know, that'd be better anyways.

So maybe, like, lest you think that medicine is something that only a smart animal like a chimp can figure out, even a dumb little caterpillar can engage in a bit of pharmacology. So this is really interesting because it is pointing towards the use of natural medicine as being something that doesn't require a lot of cognition but could just evolve in an animal's instincts, like something like a caterpillar.

So you may be aware if you are a listener of the show that caterpillars, those poor gooey little babies, often contend with some real nasty parasites, So you may know of things like parasitoid wasps who lay their eggs inside out of caterpillars and then all of these larva burst out of the poor larva in the hundreds like some kind of pinata designed by Ridley Scott. It's horrifying.

Caterpillars are very vulnerable to parasites, and so it is reasonable that natural selection would favor caterpillars who build defenses against parasites and wooly bear caterpillars who are found in the United States in southern Canada. They're adult form is a tiger moth. Well, these wooly bear caterpillars will eat toxic plants when they have parasites, which seems to be the caterpillars instinctive way to rid themselves of potentially deadly

indo parasites of parasites that are inside of them. So the technid fly will lay its eggs into the poor caterpillar's body and this can be lethal as the fly larva will take over the caterpillar's body. And researchers found that wooly bear caterpillars will eat plants that contain a toxic alkaloid more when they have a parasite. So when they eat this and they're not parasitized, it can actually be a bad thing. So like too much of this

alkaloid plant actually will hurt the caterpillar. But when they have a parasite, they will eat as much as they can without actually hurt harming themselves, because it is worth the potential harm that the alkaloid is having on the caterpillar to get rid of the parasite. It's sort of like how chemotherapy works in humans, where it's not an ideal treatment for someone because it hurts your own body, but the cancer is bad enough that it is worth

the cost of using that that chemotherapy. So the fact that caterpillars have this figure it out, that they will eat this toxic plant to get rid of this parasite is really incredible. That is I mean, how do they I like never understand like how an animal, insect being and I guess not human being can eat something toxic and survive. But it's yeah, chemicals are fascinating to me. I didn't do well in chemistry, so I don't fully understand like like why certain things are toxic for like

pets like dogs, but not for us humans you know. Yeah, no, So that's really interesting. So something that is toxic, right, you can eat something that's toxic and it might not necessarily hurt you or it might kill you. Technically, alcohol is sort of somewhat toxic, but we can have that and moderate amounts responsible amounts um if you're an adult of legal drinking age. So this is such a like

rules following podcast. I know, I know, I do have a lawyer that's constantly whispering in my ear, like you cannot tell them to eat their own poop. You cannot do that. A lot of nose, A lot of nose coming from my lawyer. But so that is a really interesting question. So like why are things like toxic to some animals and not to others, Well, it can have to do with the So basically like uh, say, something like chocolate is toxic for dogs but not for humans.

Usually comes down to the dogs having different structures in their cells where something from chocolate will maybe bind to a receptor or bind to something on a dog's cell, but not a humans. That will cause problems for the dog but not for a human. Yeah, it's it usually comes down to microbiology. So like whether a molecule, because like the way that like toxins will interact with the butt, which we're actually going to talk about in the next section,

is often down to this molecular level. Well, it's always down to this molecular level where it may bind to something or interfere with some microscopic process, and when that is done on a large scale, it really messes you up. So like, for instance, you can have some soy sauce um and it's fine, it's actually delicious. But if you try to drink a whole bottle of soy sauce, you can die because that's yes, because that's way too much salt. And the salt, that amount of salt can interfere with

the ion channels in your brain. And something else can actually interfere with the ion channels in your brain. And uh, we're actually going to talk about that after the break. A whole bottle of soy sauce incredible. Well, have you been bitten by a funnel web spider? I don't. You would probably know, you know, I don't think so. So I want to talk about a few things the ion channels in the brain, which don't worry. Sounds sounds scary to talk about, but it'll all be clear soon. It

all has to do with soy sauce. It actually doesn't have too much. It's marginally related to soy sauce. Basically, sometimes humans have to learn from animal biology to develop our own medicine, and sometimes from the most surprising sources. So when we think of something like spider venom, it seems like absolutely bad news and something that should be

avoided at all costs. Turning spider venom into medicine, especially the venom of deadly spiders such as that of the funnel web spider, seems kind of irresponsible, but it's actually responsible. Is wait, no, no? Sorry? Responsible? Responsible? Responsible? Is that like in the middle of your responsible and responsible is like, well, I guess that's responsible. You know, it's not like responsible,

but it's not irresponsible. You know, eating a cookie. It's not irresponsible, but it's not responsible, So it's responsible responsible anyways, so venoms, the very thing that makes funnel web spider venom deadly, may actually save lives. So Venoms often work by interfering with the functioning of cells, including brain cells,

by messing with ion channels. So this is something that I we were just talking about with like why you shouldn't chuck soy sauce, And the way that things can be toxic is that one of the ways is it will mess with ion channels and cells. So ion channels are structures along the membranes of cells that allow for the flow of sodium ions in and out of the cell. So I Matt, it's just basically like a gate keeper.

It's like, hey, you're sodium ion. Maybe you'll come in, maybe you can go out, but that gate is that channel is determining whether you go in and out of the cell. And in the brain, sodium ion channels can control the activation of neurons, so you will have it's basically I mean, it's just basically Domino's effect where you will have a Domino's effect of uh, sodium ion channels

that will end up triggering the neuron to fire. So have you ever seen, like on YouTube or wherever, one of these things where people will set up a bunch of dominoes and then sort of these like miss like a Rube Goldberg machine, where like it hits a domino and then that hits a marble and that goes down a ramp and that hits a thing. That's essentially how I mean, they're mesmerizing, and that's essentially how sales work.

It's I mean, like when you look at these diagrams of like how sales work, it can be very intimidating, but essentially it's just a marble hitting a ramp hitting another thing. But these are molecules interacting. So when you are bitten by something that has a venom that interferes with ion channel functioning, this can be very bad because it can interfere with your brain functioning or self functioning, which can be bad for the body or even deadly.

But and this is a huge butt, being able to manipulate ion channel functioning could actually have a positive use for human health, especially in the case of stroke. So, you know how he's talking about, how like the ion channel. You know, it's like it let's sodium ions in and out of the cell. There are certain ion channels that will actually detect the acidity in the brain, the peach

level and the brain. And so being able to manipulate uh self functioning can be really useful in medicine because sometimes something traumatic will happen to the body that your cells aren't really prepared for. So like the normal functioning of the cell suddenly becomes a danger to your body.

So this is something that can happen during stroke or traumatic brain injury where your brain is suddenly like has a massive brain bleed, UH, and your cells will respond in a way that may actually cause more damage and they don't realize that they're just functioning how a cell is supposed to function. But they do not they have no capacity to realize like, oh, hey, this is a stroke situation. We shouldn't be acting this way, and so using spider venom that interferes with the functioning of brain

cells normally a bad thing. I'm not saying you should let yourself get bitten in the face by a funnel web spider. Don't do that. Uh So, I mean, if you live in Australia, you probably already know that this is where these guys are from. It seems like, yeah, it's like a good bet anytime, uh there's like a deadly spider or something Australia. I think I'm just gonna put that out there. But so they are. Yeah, Australia.

I love you guys, I really do. You have some of the most amazing animals, But I it is like, and I love spiders, but god damn, Australia, your spiders are something else. I have some cousins in Australia that we're supposed to go visit. My dad always goes you want to go to Australia where the animals will kill you in the streets. I'm like, well, I don't think

it's what my dad always says that. And I'm always like, I don't know what you think Australia is like, but he might happen animals will just kill you in the streets. I don't think that generally happens now. Funnel web spiders do live in Australia. There are They are burrowing spiders. They are kind of meaty spiders. They're not the hugest spiders I've ever seen there, you know, they kind of like maybe fit in your palm, but they're kind of meaty,

you know what I mean. Like, they're bulky, and they can be deadly to humans. They have venom that have the capacity to capacity to kill a human. However, we have anti venom and treatments that make them not fatal. So it's typically speaking, people do not die from funnel love spiders bites, which is good. And so your dad can go to Australia, you know, Yeah, let's clip this and send it to him because he's weird about Australia. Yeah, and these spiders actually may have a wonderful use for

medicine in addition to just being cool spiders. I think spiders are great. Just because they're a little scary does mean we should hate them and try to burn them all down. They're they're they're cool guys. They're just living their lives. We should let them, let them, let them live their little spider lives happily. But they do. Their venom could offer us some really interesting breakthroughs in medicine. So there is a specific chemical found in the funnel

Web spider that could potentially help treat strokes. So this molecule is called h I one a, which kind of when I look at it looks like HIA. So I'm just gonna call it the high a molecule like HIA, the Howdy molecule. Uh. It is a molecule found in the spider's venom, and it may actually help shield neurons from damage after blood loss during a stroke or traumatic brain injury. And so I will explain how this happens. Now, I am not necessarily a molecular biologist and all no,

I'm gonna say I'm definitely not a molecular biletist. I think I would know, and I'm not, But I will try to explain this. It is basically, there are ion channels in urns, the these cells in your brain that help you think good UM, and these ion channels that are in your neurons can detect they're they're called acid sensing ion channels. Basically, the way these these channels are controlled as whether they sense a drop in uh pH

of acidity levels in the surrounding area. So when these acid sensing ion channels, like imagine a little it's like these a little gate and a little guard at the gate, it's going like, hey, what the heck The acid level is just dropped. The pH level has just dropped in the brain. That's weird. And so they uh allow an influx of calcium into the neuron to try to make up for the drop in pH. And under normal circumstances

this would actually be protective for the neurons. But because these little these little ion channels are not aware, they don't have an awareness that, uh, this is actually a stroke situation. UM, this is actually very damaging. So by increase, like by allowing this huge influx of calcium into the neuron, this becomes deadly. It's not. It is called acidosis, which is a deadly increase of acid in the cell, which

can cause cell death. And so, because the neurons are what make up your brain, death of the neurons is is brain death. And so this can be really dangerous when you're in the case of a stroke or brain damage. So if you could somehow tell those those acid sensing ion gates or to like stop, like don't worry about it, just chill right now, or or block them, that could be really useful. So back to the doctor Spider doctor

spider venom. UH. That molecule in her venom that normally would be kind of bad because it interferes with these ion channels in the cell, in this situation could be life saving because then you can put that molecule in the brain and that blocks those acid sensing ion channels and it prevents them from increasing the acidity of the neurons and that will protect them from damage following UH stroke.

And so this is a relatively new UH medical technology, but already in mouse models and studies this is showing some efficacy in protecting neurons post stroke, which is I mean, it is phenomenal that you can get from deadly spider venom to potentially protecting our neurons from themselves post stroke or traumatic brain injury. Yeah, it's you know, I mean again like we were talking earlier about, uh, you know how chimpanzees somehow figured out that rolling up leaves in

their mouths and swallowing them whole can alleviate cramps. It seems amazing and ingenious. Well, I mean, the fact that they are our cousins. It's like, well, okay, now I kind of understand how we can get to this place as humans of discovering, hey, we can take this venom that in normal circumstances you don't want anywhere near your brain, but actually the circumstances really good for protecting your neurons.

It's it's incredible, that is I mean, oh yeah, yeah, that's like we need more of that because I feel like, I mean, how close are we then to using any animal and or insect and or any other whatever curing cancer? The difficulty with cancers, there's so many different types of cancers, but I think there are a lot of there are are.

I mean, I don't want to put it in the sense of like I don't think the only use to the natural world is things like finding medical cures, but if you cannot, if you can't convince someone that we should protect nature just because nature is awesome and it

deserves to survive. Certainly, there are a lot of really interesting things biological processes out nature that would be really hard to figure out on our own, just because there's so many different like molecular shape and like what I was kind of describing earlier, where treating cancer or even something like an anti viral like a vaccine can really just come down to we gotta fit this weird shape into this weird shape, and there are so many weird

shape out there, right, there's so many different molecules. Finding these molecules are coming up with these molecules is really difficult. And so whenever we lose a species, even if it's just some random insect, right, which you should care about. Insects are great, and most of you probably do, but I'm sure there are people out there who don't care, uh, you know, but they may have some really just like really interesting aspect to them that could have some phenomenal

importance to human medicine. So there's definitely selfish reason to care about animals um but also they're just rad like you know. Yeah, they're just rad animals. They're just yeah with sunglasses and doing a sick kick flip on a skateboard and that's the logo of the show while doing heavy lifting and yeah that's what and what I said,

doing heavy lifting and curing illness but whatever. Yeah, No, it's like a spider, a doctor Spider who is a doctor, a handsome doctor Spider on a skateboard with a bunch of like doing some heavy lifting weights and curing stroke and cancer. Like would you marry? Would you marry Dr Spider? I mean, yes, yeah, you too. I mean, and I think it's okay, right because he's got so many legs. There's a lot of room for rings on those legs,

right am I right? Ladies, yeah, now you're right, And all the ladies, we would at least eight of us could marry doctor Spider. So that's good because as you as you know, the number of marriage is just a number of legs that you have, is the number of spouses you can have. I think right, legally speaking, there are you eight for a spider because it's the number of legs you can put a ring on. And I'm talking about the law, right, yeah, I guess, so that

makes sense. No, I'm following. I'm following. Okay, so Dr Spider is eligible eligible bachelor spider. So and you got you got any more questions about using spider venom to help in medicine other than like I would say, don't just piss off a bunch of spiders and inject their venom into you, because that's probably bad. I mean, if you say so, Um, I know, I've had a lot

of questions. I guess I don't know, like how prominent is the like research for all this Like how like while you say, like you know, because like curing cancer is a lot more difficult than just being able to like pull a excretion out of an animal and do a bunch of science to it and make it happen. But like, how like do you is it really like, are are people really working on this kind of stuff, like studying this kind of stuff or is it more of like it's happening but it's not as prominent as

it could be. I think it is. I mean, this gets into a whole tricky territory, right because I think there is a lot of research going on, uh with respect to studying these kinds of cures obviously because it's like profit driven, maybe there are studies that could be happening that aren't if like the the diseases maybe too rare or there, it's hard to see like maybe a essential profitability to it. So it may be stimmied somewhat

by those factors. But certainly there is a lot of research that involves using the the things that we find in nature, or even using like you know, if we can if we find animals using things like things for medicine and nature. It is, it's so much it's such a short cut rather than looking for a random random molecules out there. If we can find some kind of patterns of natures, it really does Uh, it can really

help with research. But that being said, I think obviously there is it's like there could be so much more interesting research done that maybe uh, people who would like offer the grant for the research or something maybe not want to invest in as much because it doesn't seem

as profitable or as like flashy or something. So yeah, it is it's a it's a complicated issue, which and I would say, like I think the desire of researchers to research these really interesting ideas and potential things for medicine may outpace like the rate at which they are funded to do so, right, Yeah, that's unfortunate. Yeah, yeah, now I know. Don't chug soy sauce. I don't know why that really hit somewhere because I love soy sauce. Just love to douse my like sushi, you know, just

like I love it. And now you have me like questioning everything I've ever Like, I'm like, wait, well, in the sense I mean sauces, soy sauce is not specifically bad. I mean it's specifically very good, very delicious. But it's like it's the same thing with like salt water, you know,

it's just very it's very salty. And so remember when I was talking about those sodium ion channels, Like if you have too much sodium and your cells are trying to reach homeostasis, which is like basically having the salinity outside the cell equal that inside the cell. Uh, if you throw that out of whack with too much sodium, then that can cause cell essentially cell kind of exploding.

So that's bad or imploding, which is also bad. Yeah, and actually you can have too much water, so this is very Yes, don't stop drinking water, it's very good for you. You would have in order to overdose on water. You would have to make a concerted effort to do this. It's very difficult to do. So if you're thirsty and you drink water and you're like, oh no, what if I'm having too much water, it's not gonna happen. Do not worry about this. Keep hydrating, folks, good for you.

Can I tell you my story and my kind of hometown high school growing up, It was a radio station which was having a contest of who could drink the most water and one of the people died. What oh god. I made the news because they were like, she drank so much water she literally passed on. I was like someone's mom, Like it was really tragic. And that's when I first learned you can't be doing that, Like there is a limit to how much water you can in take. I mean, the main thing is just don't listen to

what shock jocks what to do. Not going to be good. That's so, that's so sad, that's messed up. I hope that they got sud I think, yeah, I'm sure I should have. Yeah, I know that. So you don't want to like you would have to drink so much water, it would you will start to feel eck from the amount of water that you're It isn't It is an incredible amount of water you have to drink for this

to happen. But just like you can have too much sodium in your blood stream, you can have too little sodium in your blood stream, and it like what I'm describing in terms of like cell homeostasis. Cells try to equalize the amount of sodium, the concentration of sodium inside the cell and outside the cell. So if you have no sodium outside of the cell, right, you're drinking way too much water. Then all of the sodium is released from out of the cell, which is also bad, which

also destroys the cell. Or vice versa. If you have too much sodium in the blood stream, the cell actually releases too much of the water and then that also destroys the cell, which is actually so this is maybe a slight tangent, but hey, it's an animal's podcast. This is actually a problem them that fish who will fish like salmon, who migrate from the ocean to freshwater to spawn, have to contend with because fish can't necessarily just switch

from high salt concentration water to freshwater. Because like if you take like a if you've ever had a fish tank, right, if you've ever owned an aquarium, you know it's very important that if you have uh, freshwater fish, they only

get freshwater. Saltwater fish, they need a specific concentration of saltwater. Uh. Salmon have some safeguards, these very specific safeguards to prevent their cells from imploding and exploding when they move between the saltwater environments and the freshwater environment, which is really interesting. So that is why you shouldn't chug soy sauce or saltwater or chug a lot like sickening ridiculous amounts of water. But again, you're not going to do that unless you're

intentionally trying, and that would be bad for you. So don't do it. Yeah, I mean, I I don't even I don't even know how you could chug saltwater. I mean, I've had saltwater is devastatingly tough. It's bad. My mom has no I'm just saying, my mom has me gargol saltwater when I'm like sick, but I could mind never chuck it. No, you'll get sick, you'll probably throw up. It's not good for you. Don't do it, no, no thanks, and don't drink and don't drink a seawater because that

will make you sick. Um. But hey, actually we just talked about this on the last podcast. I think a couple of weeks ago that camels can can drink saltwater and they're fine. Yeah, because and we're not exactly sure researchers don't exactly know how they manage this, but yeah, wild bactory and camels can drink salt water that is saltier than seawater and they're okay. So that is very interesting. So maybe if you're a camel, you can drink soy sauce. I'm gonna say, but if you're not a camel, don't

try it. Do you think a camel will just be fine if it just chugged a ton of soy sauce? I guess it depends on what you mean by a ton of soy What do you mean by it? I don't know. I don't know what a ton of soy sauce is. I know it requires a light hand when you're, you know, doing stir fry, otherwise it's too salty. But you know I would say that which is probably deadly to humans is probably not deadly to a wild bactory and camel. If that's what you're asking, I don't know.

To be honest, I don't know. I like, what is okay? How okay? What am I gonna ask? How much are you trying? How much soy sauce you need to kill a camel? Because I'm not going to tell you. I'm just curious out this point because you know how camel can hold all this liquid to survive, and you know hot desert climates. Mhm mhmm. You're right, we should move on. I'm not I'm not instructing people how to kill camels with soy sauce that I have a strong moral line

there that I will not cross. So before we go, we gotta would you like to play a little game with me? Always it's called the Mystery Animal Sound Game? Every week I play a mystery animal sound and you the stener, and I'll see you the guest. Uh try to fare get who is who's squawking? Who's making that sound? And it can be any animal. It can be a fish, can be a bird, it can be I don't know, frog, even any animal can make these sounds. And so the hint I gave last week was don't jump to conclusions

with this sound. And here it is, so and h can you guess who's making that sound? Mm hmm, I'm gonna guess either. Can I have two guests? Sure, I'm generous, I'm between a hippo and a turtle. But I like those guesses because you know, they do sound. It does sound like a hippo or a turtle, especially when turtles

are mating. They make very strange Yeah. I saw a video recently of a turtle mating and it was making some funny It was like, sent it to me after they described it to me, and it was like and it like came. I was like, when it like ejaculated, like it sounds like it sounds like an old man out of breath, which I guess in a way it is. But you are wrong about this specific sound. Uh, this is actually the sound of a kangaroo. They can be yes, they can be very vocal and make these grunting, barking

sounds to communicate. Yeah, so that is actually a kangaroo. Did not know that found in found in Australia's They you know they'll kill you in the streets. They are pugnacious. They are pugnacious, and yeah, they will sometimes stand in water because it is a defensive tactic to like try to shove you around in the water and uh yeah, So yeah, don't mess with kangaroos. Uh yeah, that's tough. That's tough for me because I want to so bad,

just choking, want to mess with kangaroo. I like to think of my dad just thinking he's going to get off the plane in Australia, Australia, and the kangaroo's just going to punch him in the face the second he's off the pod while grunting and screaming. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like if you want your dad to go to Australia, you should only let him listen to certain sections of this episode, just the part where we talk about this

butter curing strokes and nothing else. Maybe yeah, I mean I won't Yeah, if it does happen, it would be so funny. Literally, he spends his whole life being like, they'll kill you on the street and then he just gets punched by a kangaroo. There is a video of someone uh doing a parachute and lands on the ground. This is in Australia, and a kangaroo comes up at him with how many The parachuoters like, oh hey there skip and then the kangaroo just punches them. It's really funny.

There you go. Yeah, I love I love it, honestly good for good for the kangaroo. Nothing against parachooters, but you know if you saw someone parachute down. Look, I don't know. I'm saying the kangaroo may have been justified. I'm not saying that. Wow, I get it. Onto this week's mystery animal sound. Here is the hint. Could this be the call of a unicorn? So and Gonny guesses on who is making that sound? It sounds like a demonic clown or not clown cow, demonic cow, demonic cow clown? Um,

it is actually a demonic clown. Uh, So you won the game. Well, what is it really? I don't know what I was now it's not a demonic clown or demonic cow. But the answer, I'm sorry to say you'll have to wait until next week, until next Wednesday, when I will reveal the answer to who was squawking? Is it a demonic clown? Um? Maybe? Uh? But if you think you know out there right to me at Creature

feature Pod at gmail dot com. And I'm also you know, around the internet like on Instagram Creature feature Pod or on Twitter at Creature feed Pod. That's f E T not et not is something different, very different. Anna, Thank you so much for joining me. Where can the people find you? What are you? What are you up to? Ah? You can check out my podcast Ethnically Ambiguous or or and or you can follow me at Anna host the A A N N A h O S S N I e H on Twitter or where I post about

all the shows I produce another fun fun stuff. Please do that and thank you so much for listening. Hey, if you're enjoying the show and you want to leave me a writing or review, I really appreciate that. Not only do I appreciate it, I read all of them, literally all of them, and so you write a review, I will read it and it will make me feel good, you know, So I appreciate that. And thanks to the Space Classics for their super awesome song x Alumina. Creature

features a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit the I Heart Radio app Apple podcast or Hey, guess what, I don't know. I honestly you can listen to this in any way that you want, and I am not. I'm not gonna judge you, so yeah uh. And again, don't chug soy sauce, don't let the spiders bite you on the face, and I'll see you next Wednesday. Bye bye,