Welcome to Creature feature production of iHeartRadio.
I'm your host of Many.
Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology, and today on the show, we are continuing hount Sharks Summer with a special guest who is a shark biologist and expert, and we are going to learn a lot about sharks about life. So welcome to the show. The co founder of Minorities in Shark Sciences and author of the new autobiographical book Sharks Don't Sink, Jasmine Graham.
Welcome, Hello, Thanks for having me. So.
I really love how your book combines both science and your life story. So like you weave together tales of field research, amazing sharks, science and facts, and your own experience, your life story. So for this interview, I definitely want to talk about both things. So first of all, I mean, I think I and probably all of my listeners love sharks, so there's no need to, you know, try to justify why one would love sharks. But what did draw you to sharks as a focus of research.
Well, I always was interested in the ocean. I grew up fishing with my dad and so the ocean was always a big part of my life. And then I found out in high school you could get paid to study fish, and I was like, that sounds like the coolest job ever. I guess I'll do that, And so I went to college for marine biology. And I tried a lot of different things while I was in college, but what stuck was sharks. And how I first got
introduced to sharks was a total accident. It's what I call a scientific meat cute where I had this moment where I was walking down the hallway and turned a corner and literally ran into a professor.
I thought, you're going to study sharks, so you ran into a shark.
In a shark in a hallway, and not.
Shark in a hallway.
The elevator doors are closing and a shark sticks a fin in and lets you in.
I guess, in a way, I did run into a shark because I ran into doctor Gavin Taylor. Papers went flying, and then I started picking them up and I started seeing all of these images of these really cool CT scans of sharks, and I was like, whoa, these are awesome.
And I was asking him about it, and he was telling me about his research and how he is studying how sharks evolve and their adaptations and kind of just talking about how old they are and all of these cool things that he's learning about them, trying to build this tree of life of sharks, and I was just kind of like, that sounds super awesome. I want to
do that. And so he reached out to me a couple of months later and said, I actually have some funding and an opening in my lab for an undergraduate researcher, and so then I started working with him with sharks, and that's just where I stayed because honestly, sharks are super cool. Just from seeing a couple of CT scans and listening to this man geek out about sharks for five minutes in the hallway, I fell in love.
I do not blame you. Sharks are incredibly cool.
Can you talk a little bit about your favorite shark and what it means to you.
So my favorite shark is the bonnethead shark, and I love them for several reasons. One because it's the first shark species that I got to work with in a scientific setting, so that was pretty cool too. They're just super cute. There are multiple bonnet head pictures in the book. Because I just need people to know how cute they are. They look like they're wearing little tiny hats. They're often swimming around kind of in a very confused way, and
they're just adorable. And the third reason is they were the first shark discovered to be omnivorous, so they actually eat plants and animals. Actually, sea grass makes up forty to sixty percent of their diet, and so I think it's really cool that there's a shark out there that actually eats more plants than animals in some situations.
That is really cool. That sounds like they're the bears of the sea. How big are bonnet sharks.
They're very small. They're like they max out between three and four feet. Oh, babies, they're small, the little baby guys.
I of all the animals that I know that you can't do this, but I do want to, like pick up a shark in my arms and hold it like a baby, because their faces to me, are so cute, the little, the little just the little downturned mouths, the big eyes. I have a I have a hard time understanding why people don't find them cute.
Honestly, Yeah, I mean thresher sharks. Their faces are so cute. They just look alarmed all the time. I know, they just look frightened.
I want to carry one around in a baby born if that wasn't, you know, incredibly harmful to the shark. But yeah, that's so interesting, and you have you done research on bonnet sharks.
I have. Yeah. So for my undergraphic research, I focused on a small all part of the Tree of Life project for sharks and rays, and I focus specifically on the hammerhead family. So I was looking at all ten speeches of hammerheads, which a lot of people don't know that there are ten speeches of hammerheads. Sometimes people think that hammerheads are just like one species, one.
Guy, one shark that's got a like an actual hammer.
Yeah. So I studied all of them, bonnettheads included. And then I got to co advise a master student who studied bonnethead sharks and their head shapes, and I talk about that a lot in the book. And the head shapes are super cool for bonnet heeads because they exhibit what's called sexual dimorphism, which is where males and females look different. And that's super cool that their heads look different if you're a male versus a female bonnetthead shark
because that's super weird. What a weird thing that is different between males and females, But it.
Is imagine if for humans, if women were going around with triangle heads and men were going around with square heads. I don't know, we'd probably find whole new ways to make society sexist based on like, well, you know, with the triangle head, you know, obviously you can't be president.
Yeah.
One thing also in.
The book that is really interesting, but also you know, kind of I think painful, is like discussing the challenges that you face in marine biology, particularly as a black woman. Can you talk a little bit about how you approached these challenges and what like what they were, what you face, which you know, really likely the only challenges in research should be you know, hey, are my you know notes
getting wet because I'm on a boat. But no, there's a lot of actual social challenges that you faced.
Yeah. Science is interesting because people feel like science should be a place where we don't have human problems, because people see scientists as these like objective beings that don't have any bias and all of these things. But that's not true. Scientists are people just like anyone else. And so therefore science has some society issues creep into it. And so a lot of those issues come up in
science settings when it's people interacting with other people. And so that is something that I found to be a challenge, mostly in the sense of people look at me and they don't expect me to be a scientist, and so therefore there's this, oh, you need to prove yourself because we don't feel like you belong here because you don't look like scientists. I've actually had a lot of people say that, like, oh, you know, it looks like a scientist, and then I asked the question, what does a scientist
look like? Right, and then they get very uncomfortable. They should yes, that is my bias creeping out. And so I think that that is, in and of itself, something where you have this sort of doubt when you come into a room, or when you submit a paper, or when you're submitting a grant proposal, that people have these preconceived notions about what a scientist is and what a scientist looks like, and what they do and don't do.
And so that's a challenge. And then there's more egregious things, of course, because people sometimes are terrible, but a lot of it is people that the heart I would say the hardest thing is people that believe that they don't have bias, and then they walk around like I had a talking about yeah, that's why I said that, like it I would have assumed that anybody was a custodian and I'm like, would you know, or like they'll be like, oh,
it's just because you're young, is it? And so that's that's the harder thing to deal with because whenever you have somebody that's like blatantly and openly causic issues, then it's a little easier to pinpoint. But there's often a lot of times where people, you know, say well, I don't think they meant it like that, or maybe you took it the wrong way or that other stuff where it's sort of like, I don't believe that this is
actually a thing that is happening a lot. I don't believe that bias played into this.
It's like a lot of defensiveness. So not only is it awkward or uncomfortable because it's like, hey, you just kind of assume something about me and that it's also like, oh, now you have to deal with someone being really defensive like oh no, no, no, I'm not sexist, I'm not racist, you know.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, it's a big thing. And then there's also other issues with marine science in particular because a lot of times you are on boats or in very remote locations and you're stuck with the same people for a long amount of time. And it's not like a normal nine to five where you're like, cool, I only have to deal with this for eight hours and then I walk away. I mean, sometimes it's weeks of you have to spend time with these people for a
really long time. There's all sorts of weird power dynamics at play where sometimes people don't feel comfortable speaking out about things, especially things like sexual harassment and stuff like that, especially if you are as in a position of less power and you would have to challenge some body that has more power than you. It creates really awkward situations.
Yeah, I mean, I imagine that is especially profound on a boat. Like in academia, it's it's a huge problem. And then you take all of these social complexities and problems of academia and then you put it on like a platform that is floating in the middle of the ocean that seems really challenging.
Yeah, for sure.
Do you have any advice that you would give young people who are really interested in marine biology but they are concerned about these things, like you know, maybe they're a minority, maybe they are worried that the field is going to be really really challenging because of these assumptions that like people make about what a scientist should be.
Yeah. I mean what I've always done is I always remind myself that there are people who want to help, and there are people who can be really good allies and friends in the field, and if you surround yourself with those people, then you have this sort of buffer where hopefully you don't have to be the one to put yourself at risk to say something to somebody that has more power than you or something like that, because you have other people in your corner that will speak
out on your behalf. And those people do exist, and they are very prominent, and they usually make themselves very clear. They're very easy to spot speacon of light where you're like, ah, yes, you seem awesome, let's hang out. I want you in my circle, and like people that just hype you up because whenever you are constantly getting these like little tiny knock downs. It's really helpful to have someone that's constantly boosting you up so that you know you can keep
your spirits high, keep your confidence up. I think the best way to fight imposter syndrome is to have people constantly tell you that you belong here and you're doing a great job. And having hype people having a heightened
squad really helpful. The other thing I think is whenever people whatever, people maliciously try to make other people seem small, the best response is to be bigger and take up more space because they're trying to nudge you out, and so the best defense is offense to just be bigger,
be bolder, like don't shrink away. I think sometimes people when they come into a space and they feel like they aren't being valued or they're worried about being the only person like them and having this sort of Oh, I have to keep proving myself over and over and
over again. Whenever I get in those situations, just walk in with all of the authority in the world, even if I even if I'm in my head kind of like ah, I feel like I am an imposter facing I'm like, yeah, I'm Jasmine Graham and I'm a shark site because I'm an expert in this field and I know what I'm talking about and everything is great. And then if anyone challenges that, I can say, well, you're wrong, yeah,
because I do belong here. And even if you just say it, you say it enough, other people tell you enough, and then you feel it. You feel like you can walk into situations with your head held high and take up space. And the most important thing is to not let people like that win. And you let them win whenever you get small. So you gotta stand your stand your ground.
I love. That's really really good advice.
I mean, that's that's good advice, and probably everywhere I've not just in science, but yeah, I mean I do.
I can't help but.
Always try to relate sort of be like human psychology back to back to animals, because that's what this show is.
I don't necessarily know enough about.
Shark behavior to say that sharks would also do this, but like really like when they are being threatened or being intimidated, really trying to kind of like say like.
No, no, no, I am I am coming.
I am a shark, and I'm tough and I'm cool and like, don't bother me, even though inside sharks might actually be quite scared.
Yeah, I mean a lot of animals do this. Some animals do this quite literally. I mean porcupines put up their spines, puffer fish puff up. There's like snakes swelled, like there's this natural like something is threatening me. Be bigger. It's sort of a natural instinct of animals like well, if I'm bigger, then maybe they'll think it's about messing
with me. And so having that attitude of people love to punch down, you know, like you know, people are always going after people that they feel like they can push around, and as soon as you stand your grounds, they're like, oh this is not a person to be trifled with. Let me go away. And that's what happens in the animal kingdom. Is no animal wants to hunt prey that's going to fight back.
Yeah, Like that is not what.
They want to do. If they have a choice between like a sleeping rat and a king cobra, they're going to go for the rat. Like I don't want to fight a king cobra. I might lose. So yeah, just being big and helping people see like oh you think you're about to punch down, but really you're punching up.
Yeah, And they're like, ah, yeah, maybe I want to do that.
Yeah yeah, maybe maybe maybe think twice about eating that pufferfish that now is a big spiky balloon. You mentioned earlier that the bonnehead sharks like swim around like they don't know where they're they're going.
Can you expand on that?
Why Why do they swim around in sort of this awkward way.
That's a really good question. I don't know. Some sharks are just There are some sharks that are really like, I'm an excellent navigator, I know where I'm going, I have, you know, all of these skills to avoid being eaten or to hunt or whatever. And then there's boneheads who, for some reason like they just were like, I don't know, I guess I'm just gonna go over here, and then I'm gonna go over here, and just kind of I
think that's because of how they live their lives. They're kind of just swimming through seagrass looking for a little crabs and crustations. They're not really going after like tuna or something like that. Right, they don't need to be like out smarting prey necessarily, they're kind of just like yum yum yumps.
They're enjoying.
So they just live this like what's the life where they're just like I'm just swimming through the sea grass, I'm gonna have a little salad and I'm gonna have a little shrimp, and I'm just gonna like move on with my life, whereas I feel like other sharks are either like getting hunted down my other sharks a lot, or they are like having to, you know, get prey that is fast or sneaky or camouflaged and you know
all of these things. I think that bonnet heads they just tend to have very easy lives and so they're like natural instincts, maybe not as keen as some other sharks that are out there in like the rough and tumble of the deep sea where everything is trying to kill you. Bonnet Heads are just kind of like, I don't know, you've tagged me, and I don't know. I feel like I didn't quite like that. But what if I just swam right back into your head? Because that
and then I want to go that way. I know that the last time I went that way, I was in a net right and then you let me go.
But maybe this time, I think I'm.
Just gonna swim back that way.
Let's try it to get yeah this time, maybe this time there will be a nice snack rather than being in a net. Oh a net again. Well, third time's the charm. Yeah, exactly, that's really cute. I'm really being sold on these bonnet heead sharks. That's I love that they're just out there scrounging around having girl dinner. I when I am left my own devices, like, if there's not another human being to enforce me to have a normal human dinner, I will do bon ahead sharks stuff.
I'll just be like, I don't know, maybe some pasta. Are these you know, potato chips still good? They're like under the counter. I don't know, just a little, this little bit. But it is really fascinating that they are. Are they the only shark species we know of that is omnivorous or are they just more more omnivorous than other sharks.
So recently, scientists figured out that whale sharks are actually digesting a lot of the algae that they suck in with their mouths while they're getting planked in and stuff. So whale sharks are also omnivorous, but whale sharks are a little different because they're passive feeders. So it's kind of just like, yeah, you got some plants in your.
Mouth by accident, and big whoop.
You figured out a way to die. Just it good for you, Yeah, Whereas I mean you open up like a bonnet head shark stomach and it's just like grass grass.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Yeah, I mean, and so they they're all it's almost as if they are they could say, if they continued on for millions of years, like they could completely turn.
To be herbivores.
Yeah, I mean, so that's something that's really interesting about bonnet heeads and one of the reasons why we're really interested in this idea of them being omnivorous and like a huge percentage of their diet being sea grass, because there's two sides to this, like one, do they need sea grass to like have a balanced diet, Like are they going to perform or if they don't eat a
lot of sea grass. And that's an important question because our seagrass beds are going away, and so if we lose sea grass, is that detrimental to the bonnet heads or are they kind of just like filling in with sea grass? And then on the other side of that, well, if there's a shortage of meat options, like let's say the like entire shrimp population goes away, or like we have a huge decline of the fish, Like, will they just be like, Okay, I guess I'll just eat vegetables.
It's like, do you need both of those right to be healthy? Or like if you lost one, could you just totally just only eat the other thing? Like is there a reason why you're eating both? Because you know, like people whenever we go like vegetarian or vegan, like you have to be very specific about what you eat because there's certain nutrients that you get from meat, and if you aren't diligent about getting those in the specific other foods that you eat, then bad things can happen.
Is it the same for bonnet heeads? Or could bonnet heeads just totally just survive off of seagrass without any other nutritional output or vice versa.
Are they obligate surf and turf eaters or is this by choice?
Yeah?
That is exactly that is really fascinating.
I'm always interested in like these evolutionary histories of animals that like they started out maybe as herbivores, then they became carnivores, but then they went back to being herbivores. Like panda bears are really interesting, right, like they maybe not entirely carnivores, but at least heavily carnivores with some omnivorous traits.
And then they.
Started to completely specialize in bamboo, and now that's it. That's that's it for them. It's got to be bamboo or nothing. Ride or die with that bamboo for better or worse.
Yeah, which is which is a evolutionary mistake on their Sometimes you adapt and then you're like I've adapted in the direction.
Like investing in just one stock like hey, you know what this is theeum coin seems really good.
I'm going to invest in all of it.
But yeah, I mean it's but that's the thing, right, Like evolution doesn't have foresight. It's not like, well maybe we shouldn't like invest completely in bamboo. If there's a ton of bamboo, if there's a ton of sea grass, it's just like great, this will be like this forever because like you know, there's no it's yes, so.
Yeah, it's so interesting. And like I talk about that in the book, is that, like a lot of times people have this like view of evolution being very linear. We have that like stereotypical image of like a monkey, and then it transforms into like a man in a suit, and it's like, that's not how that works. Such straight line evolution is kind of just like roll the dice. Yeah, what works in this moment? All right, sounds good. Yeah.
And something that's really interesting about hammerheads is, you know, the first thing that people always ask me is like, what do hammerheads use their heads for? And then you know, I say, there's a lot of theories, and then I tell them the theories. They can turn better, their eyes are on the side, so they have near three sixty vision, it spreads out their sensory organs that sense electrical charge. They can use it to pin down stingrays, all of
these things. And then I always end it with or it's just as likely that this was a random mutation that they've been trying to get rid of ever since. Because there are two conflicting hypotheses right now on the phylogeny,
which is like how things are related. That says like actually the most ancestral, the one that's closest to the most ancestral what was the ancestor of the hammerhead sharks is the like wing head shark that has like the widest head that's like three fourths as long as its body, and then the ones that are more close in evolutionary history to now, they came about with small heads. And it's like, hmm, our hammerheads actually benefiting from his head or are they? Like, I mean, I didn't die from
having this giant head, so I guess it's fine. Yeah, which sometimes things happen because they didn't die exactly necessarily helpful. It's just they didn't die and things still wanted to reproduce.
With them, right, Yeah, did you die? Yes?
No?
And did you have offscreen? Yes? No, hooray you win for now. Yeah. This is really interesting because it's like maybe just like great great, great, great great great great.
Amma was like really horny for big heads, and now you're stuck with a big head forever.
Yeah that's yeah, It's just it's super funny, like evolution is so weird like that, and then it'll be like, oh, this wasn't beneficial until it was right and then ha ha ha, you didn't want to mate with all of these like weirdo big headed sharks, and then something happened and suddenly having a big head is an advantage and don't you feel silly?
Yeah, yeah, I love Like there's that the idea that maybe the you know, k I'm trying to remember the exact name, it's this, there's a deer that had like the.
Massive, massive antlers, the Irish elk. There we go.
I'm I totally didn't just google that, by the way, the Irish elk, And like some of the theories of like why it just like went extinct is just like, well, forrest kind of changed and they couldn't get in them. And that's so it's just so funny to me right where it's like, yeah, I have these huge antlers and all the ladies love my huge antlers, and then just trying to get into the new sort of more dense forest just like bonk bonk bonk, I can't get in.
Yeah. Or like in the shark world, we have the megalodon, which everyone is always like, ah, the megalodon so cool, such a great shark. It was giant and bigger is not necessarily better because it was great. They were big. They were like, ha ha ha, I'm eating all the whales. This is awesome. And all the whales were like, oh no, there's a big, scary predator. I'm gonna be really fast and be able to swim fast and be small and be able to swim fast, and like that's my strategy.
I'm just trying to dodge them. And then Meglaedon was like, all right, you're kind of fast, so you're hard to hunt. But you know this is fine. We're chilling, we're vibing. And then great hammerhead sharks are not great hammerheads. Great white sharks came to exist and then they're like white sharks are like, ha ha, I am smaller than you and therefore faster and I can I can catch more whales than you. Haha. You thought that you were so big and scary, but actually you're slow and I'm fast,
so mahhahaha. And then the.
Megaladon was like, oh no, yeah.
Now I have competition and I can't compete because I'm too fast and I can't evolve to be small fast though.
Oh no.
And then death and then on the other side of that, the whales are like, hah no, we were so small and so fast and that means nothing now because white sharks are even faster. And then they're like, I don't know what do we do? And then there's like the one like group of whales that was like a little fat and slow and they were just getting munched on by the megalodon and everybody was like ha ha, you suck.
And then suddenly the great white sharks were like, ah, then I want to eat you because I can't fix you in my mouth.
Yeah, too big, big problem.
And then they're like, haha, joke's on you, all of you small ones. We will rise now. And now whales are like giant.
Yes, uh yeah, I do love.
I love like also just the image of the great white shark like you know, just little, not to us, little but compared to the megalodon, just like persistently yoink grabbing little you know, fish or whales like away from the megalodon. But yeah, it is, it is. It's always really interesting how Yeah, evolution is a wild circuitous ride.
It is not like yes, I have.
Now evolved better teeth and everyone else has better teeth. It's like, no, I'm going to like that one weird shark that has the the it had the weird like almost sob blade mouth at hiliocon.
Yeah.
Yeah, and it's just like, well that was kind of a mistake that didn't work very well, but it.
Just as likely could have worked amazingly.
Yes, it worked at the time. It was it seemed like a good idea at the time.
Uh, the the offspring that had that mutation, they survived, they made it work until they didn't. Now we don't have cool buzz buzz saw sharks anymore.
Yeah. But something that's really cool about sharks and something that I find really fascinating about them is even though you know they're evolving and adapting, their basic body structure stays pretty conserved throughout you know, this four hundred and fifty million years they've been on this planet. There's like, you know, the Carsonization where everything's becoming a crab and then sharks are just like but also, I'm just going to be a shark. Yeah, it's working.
Everyone's everyone's over there being like have you heard about this new thing called crab?
And sharks are like not interested. It's I'm happy with myself.
Yeah, speaking of interesting sort of shark shapes, or like the consistent shark shape. Can you talk a little bit about your research on sawfish, because they are another one of those that it's like, huh, why they got that saw in the front of them, but then the rest of them is just like normal shark.
Yeah. I so obviously you can tell that I have a thing for sharks and rays with weird faces. Yes, I just I just love it. If you have a weird head, I want to study you. I don't understand why you have that.
There's someone for everyone.
Sawfish are really cool because I mean they have have this long saw, which the scientific term is a rostrum, and they just whack things with it, and like that's the strategy, just like fruit ninja. Yeah, just go into a school of fish and just slice and dice, and it's a really cool strategy. And then it also secondarily, they have all of these ampulae of Lorenzini, which are those sensory organs that sense electricity that I was talking about before, and so it's like a it's like a
fish detector. So they got this long nose and they can just like.
Like are distributed along that that long saw, so it's like it's like a metal detector, but for electrical signals.
Yeah, and then like they sensed it and then they just slip slash slash. Cool and I mean it's cool. It's a cool strategy. And they're rays, so they are like not through sharks, but they do have shark like body shape, but they still have wings like array, and their gill slits are still on the bottom. They still spend a lot of time like laying on the bottom and they just kind of lay on the bottom and then whenever they feel like eating, they just slice the
dice and then they go back to laying. And honestly, it's an inspirational way to live your life. Lay eat, lay eat. I track the movements of these animals for my graduate research, and literally we would just have these receivers where we can detect if one of the sawfish that we put a transmitter in is by receiver, and it would just be days of this sawfish not moving
for days by this receiver. They were just like when I live here now and I'm just gonna live here for like two weeks, I'm not gonna move any further than like five hundred yards. I'm just gonna just gonna be here. It's like it's like okay, cool, I'm glad you've invested in this place. And then they'll be like, ah, but now I want to move to a new place. And then they will just in May just up and be like we're out of here, and they go all
the way up the coast of Florida. On both sides, they're like all the way up to like Apalatricola Bay, which is by like Panama City Beach is the Panhandle, the very tip right before you get into Alabama. Sometimes they'll be we have we have environmental DNA that suggests that they go all the way to Mississippi, and then we've had detections all the way to Georgia. We've had
people see them before in South Carolina. So they just are like I don't want to move, and now i want to move really far and then I'm gonna sit and then I'm gonna go back.
Yes, that's you know.
I mean, I do really aspire to these chucks because I feel like I'm similar where sometimes I need a lot of naps and then after I've had my little nap, I'm like ready to go. I'm full of energy. But then it's I need those naps. I need to be able to just like lie down for a while before I am ready to go to the panhandle, which in my situation it is just like going to the grocery store.
I also love their little faces like underneath, because you know their mouth is it looks like it is underneath there, so rather than kind of like you know, it's the same thing as like with rays, right you flip over a ray or don't do that, but if you do do it, you see like they have their little mouth. It's adorable and it's the same thing here and you look at it and they like it goes from being very menacing looking when you look at it like top down and you see this like saw blade rostrum and
it's like very intimidating. And you look underneath and it's like this little smiley face and a big nose.
Yeah. They I think they kind of look like someone who took their dentures out and they're smiling at you. It's like a little muffing face.
Yeah.
Yeah, Oh it's so cool, very very cool.
What is one aspect of your work, like when you're out on the boat and doing research on these sharks, Like what do you think is one of the most surprising aspects that people when.
You tell people about it.
That you have to do, like when you are handling sharks or when you're doing shark research.
I mean, the first thing that people always ask me is have you been bitten by a shark? And I
have not. And people have this image that like sharks are just out to get you, which is unfairly earned because they're just vibe and just like any other animal, and they have this bad reputation and so it's like, yes, this is a wild animal, but so are tons of other animals, and you respect them, you take precautions, you don't do anything that is going to obviously upset them and feel make them feel like they need to fight you.
And they are just kind of like, I mean, I don't like this, but I don't feel like you're trying to kill me. So I'm kind of just gonna sit here and then I hope you let me go, and then as soon as you let me go, I'm out of here.
Yeah.
So's it's it's sort of like, you know, I have a dog taking my dog to a that he's like squirming. Ya's like, ah, please don't put that that thermometer in my butt, which is fair.
Yeah, it's very fair. They must be so confused by that, like why would you do that?
And so it's the same thing with charts in the same way that I would handle a dog or a cat or any other animal that people normally interact with, Like it's just as likely that a dog or a cat could bite or scratch you.
Yes, you're probably yes, you're probably more at risk of my dog Cookie nipping you than a shark nipping you, because she is uh, she expresses discomfort with just like, well, I'm gonna put your finger in my mouth now because you're doing something I don't like.
This cold thing is up my butt and I do not like it.
So, like I feel it is funny because like I feel like we give such a pass to like cute little dogs, cute little cats, right, and they're biting and they're scratching, and but like you know, with sharks, it's like, you know, it's the same thing, right, you might get a little a little bite from a shark if it's scared or something or curious, like sometimes like when I'm petting one of my sisters in law's cats, like it's not upset. It's just like, well, I'm gonna now taste
your hand and just give it a chomp. And it's like, okay, man, I don't know why you're doing that. But we give cats and dogs this past and then sharks. Then when a shark is like, you know, takes a little curiosity nibble, it's like, oh, well, you're you're just a onto logically evil animal.
Yeah exactly. And so whenever I'm teaching people like interns and students how to handle sharks, I always tell them never yourself between the shark and the water. Like, if you're on the boat and you're you're doing a shark tagging, you're going to always be inside the boat and have the shark facing the outside of the boat because guess where the shark wants to be in the wood. So like, if the shark gets away from you, the shark is not gonna think oh let me go bye that person.
It's gonna think freedom and jump into the water. But if you're standing between the shark and the water, the shark thinks I have to go.
Through you, right.
I need I need to get you out of my way.
I need to be like the kool aid man, and like barrel through this person like a wall.
Yeah, exactly. So that's that's what I tell people, is like sharks are like any other animal. We give them this bad reputation. I mean, a shark will be mining its own business, swimming down beach and the headlines will read like man eating sharks stock beach goers in Miami, and it's like, all right, this shark is literally just swimming mining its business. Note how it has swammed past hundreds of people and just kept going on its very way.
It is not interested in any of you. But we don't say that about like a squirrel, Like if a squirrel is running around Central Park, We're not like man eating squirrels stocks people in Central Park.
Although sometimes like college campus squirrels are legitimately legitimately frightening because they're so used to humans and they understand that we have food, and I have there have been squirrels that have been very intimidating. Also ground squirrels when you're on the beach and they learn that like humans have food, they will not leave you alone. Like they are determined and if they're like you have a sandwich, they if they could kill me for a sandwich, I'm sure they would.
They absolutely have that in them.
Yeah, but they're mammals and they're furries, so we get from a past. That's what I've noticed. Yeah, you're a mammal, we give you a pass. Or like you're like us, Yeah, you can't be evil.
I mean it's like because like bears, I think are similar. It's like a similar situation with bears, right, Like, bears can be dangerous, right, Like, they can hurt and injure a human being, just like a shirt can hurt and injure a human being. Usually it's defensive or by accident, but you know, on occasion, yeah, like it can chomp you up. But then we're like, oh, but bears are so cute and so cuttly. It's like, well, they are definitely not cuddly, but we still like to give them a pass.
Do you remember that.
I don't remember exactly when it was, but there was that there was a they had sent like a drone off the coast of I want to say, somewhere in California.
But like they were just using this drone to like you know, kind of like.
Survey the area, and they saw a bunch of sharks and also a bunch of swimmers and it's like you just saw that there was this like people who were swimming would not be able to see these sharks. It was only because they had this like drone camera footage, and the sharks were completely ignoring all of the surfers, all of the swimmers, and there were more sharks than people expected that there would be in this area, and they were just like, yeah, man, whatever, I don't I
don't really care. I'm not interested in you, and like usually it's just it was kind of interesting because some of the response to that was like, oh my god, there's so many sharks.
That's so scary.
But it seems like the response should be like, there's so many more sharks than we thought, and they're ignoring everyone.
They have no interest.
Yeah. Like I'll go out with friends or family and we'll go to the beach or something and they'll be like, Jasma, there's sharks in this water. And I'm like, all right, do me a favor. Stick your finger in the water, lick your finger. Is it salty? And they're like yeah, And I'm like, then there are sharks confirmed. Yes, sharks do live in the ocean. It is it is their home. There's no such thing as shark infested waters.
Yes, they live there, there's people in yeah, yeah, no, I guess.
So it's like, ah, sharks in ocean makes headlines. Why, Like you wouldn't go, oh my gosh, there are birds in the sky.
Yeah, I know, I mean yeah, I think that.
Yeah, it's unfortunate. I think that.
You know, Jaws and other sort of a kind of media stories about sharks and shark attacks are they're so sensationalized, right, like it's it makes it seem like these are just vicious predators and obviously you know they are predators, but for like fish and seals and crabs and squid. Uh. But you know, unless they kind of mistake you for one of those things, you're usually gonna be fine. Like I'm not not saying like go and find a shark and like put your hand in its mouth and tease it.
But you know, for the most part, like shark shark attacks are just incredibly rare. It just is very unlikely to happen. And even if it does happen, usually they like kind of take an exploratory bite and they're like uh, yuck, no, thank you, check please.
Yeah, it sort of wild to me how how much attention it gets because there's nothing else like that where you have a story where someone has an interaction with wildlife and it like is world news if somebody if somebody dies by a shark attack, it like is literally news all over the world. It's like headlines all over the world. And that happens like maybe ten times in a year, and there are billions of people in this world. I can't imagine something like being that hyper focused on
like anything else. It's like, ah, this person you know, fell behind a vending machine and got stuck and died.
Stairs killed so many more people just stares, just get out and it's it's fine.
It's whenever people are like, well, I don't want to go into the ocean because it's I'm scared of sharks, and I'm like, there's so many fun things to do in the ocean and like so many fun critters to see and like things to learn about, and you're gonna let something like that stop you, Like it's like I always try to like outweigh yeah, the like sphere with like ah, but like beaches are fun, cruises are fun.
You know, all of these things are fun. Yeah, they take place of the ocean, Like you're just never gonna go into the ocean because you might be one of the billions and billions and billions of people. Yeah, world that gets bit by a shark. Yeah, And I'm like, do you drive? Yeah, exactly, like you you could definitely die getting in a car.
Yeah, you've already survived that.
Yeah, You've already survived a much more dangerous activity that day, which is driving.
Yeah. So it's like you, you know, you know how you make the choice, but like, yes, you could get in a car accident and you could die, but it's way better to drive than to not drive. Like, you know, I'm trying to create that same sense with the ocean, and like, yes, we obey traffic laws, we put on our seat belts, we put air bags in our car, we have all of these safety measures in place. It's
the same thing with sharks. There are lifeguards. You can do certain things like not swimming at dawn or dusk, don't swim by you know, floating dead whale carcasses.
Look at it, man, oh man, I really wanted to swim next to that dead bloated whale carcass.
You know, like just pay if you're diving. Don't go touching sharks because honestly, most of the shark bites that we have in the world are provoked, and usually it's somebody touching a shark. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, you wouldn't go grab a squirrel in Central Park because guess what it's gonna bite you. Yeah, don't go grab in a shark. Don't touch them, don't get in their space, don't swim towards them. Definitely, don't make them feel like
they're cornered. Yeah, you know. And then the other thing that has happens is like people are actively in chummed waters or they're spearfishing. Spearfishermen also have the one of the highest rates of like having shark bites. It's because they're literally like shooting yeah thing at you know, fish, and it's bloody and it's creating all of this mess. So yeah, obviously you're going to have those, you know, increased likelihoods there.
Yeah, if you do want to know what it's like to touch a shark, you could get like a I don't know, I'd say like two order three hundred grit sandpaper and rub that. That's gonna be kind of what it feels like. There are aquariums now you'd probably want definitely go to like a you know, major aquarium for this so that you know that they're taking care of
the animals well. But like say Monterey Bay Aquarium, they do have some tanks where they will let you very gently put your hand in the water and just let a raise go by, and that also gives you a pretty good sense of what that feels like. So, yeah, there are ways to have the experience of what it is like to touch a shark without actually trying to touch a shark. And I know they're cute, and I
also want to cuddle them. I want to hold them in my arms and sing to them, but they won't like that, so I won't do that.
Yeah, you got to have in a controlled setting with trained professionals that can monitor the situation and the shark behavior.
Yes, exactly.
Before we go, can you speak a bit about minorities in shark science and how people could get involved.
Sure, So, minorities in shark sciences or myths as we call it.
It's a solid acronym.
Can I just say solid acronym?
So MISS is dedicated to supporting gender, minorities of color, and folks from the global South that are interested in marine science, particularly the study of sharks and rays, and we do that in a number of ways. We serve what we call ka gray So we have outreach programs for youth, spring break camps, summer camps, science at the c days, we go to schools and community groups to
talk about sharks and their relatives. For folks that are older that are interested in getting into the field, we have fellowships, internships, We have workshops like professional development workshops, a huge variety. We try to make it as accessiful as possible, so it's all expenses paid. There are three day long time commitments, there are one month to three months.
There's all sorts of options to engage with marine science in a meaningful way, even hybrid experiences where it's partially online. And then we do research, so we help support people
doing research all over the world. We have about five hundred members representing about thirty four different countries and the majority of US states and territories, and we support them in doing their research, particularly focused on in inclusive conservation and research, where we center the voices of communities that don't typically get to be heard in science or in
conservation and ways to get involved. We have applications for programs open pretty much all the time, so you can go on our website and you can join our mailing list to stay up to date on opportunities. You can also on our website find the donation button you can donate to support us. You can buy swag if you do want to come touch a shark. We do have a fundraiser happening right now which is Shark Scientists for a Day, where you can buy a ticket and come
and learn about the research that we do. Come on the boat with us and be a shark scientist for a day, and by doing that, you allow two of our participants to get hands on training. So your ticket pays for two participants in one of our workshops to get training as well, so that is an option. And then there's tons of information about our various programs all on our website. We also are very active on social media. We're on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok.
Nice TikTok. I totally understand TikTok. I am completely with it. I will take one of us, Yes, Shark Talk, I will link to that. I'll put a link to that website in the show notes and where and can people pick up your book? Just in bookstores or online? Where can people get your book? Sharks don't sync.
Yeah, so you can get the book pretty much anywhere books are sold, So check out your local independent books. Support independent bookstores. And if you don't have an independent bookstore that's around you. Barnes and Nobles Books, a million, Amazon, all of those places will have it. And it's on audiobook and it's on ebook, so check with your library. See if it's in your library. See if it's on Libby. You can read it an e book. So check that out.
Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Jasmine. This was really really fun and I learned a lot about bon Ahead Sharks. Now it's time to play a little game called guests Who's Squawking? The Mystery Animal sound Game? Full disclosure, I am recording this in the future, which I guess is your past, but the future from when I.
Recorded the rest of the podcast.
Anyways, So last week's episode was a rerun because I needed a little vacation called lap camels, and so this was the mystery animal sound hint from that episode it was you may find these little dudes booging to an imaginary beat, but it's probably for the prey that lies beneath their feet, h.
So cute.
Congratulations to Sherry Ce for guessing correctly that this is the American woodcock. It is pretty Internet famous for walking in a very particular rhythmic fashion, which is thought to possibly be to create vibrations under the earth that mimics that of rain, which would then drive worms up to the surface. But yes, it makes that adorable little ink sound, and it is also.
The bird itself.
Very very cute.
All right.
So two weeks ago we had an episode called Hot Sharks Summer. Highly recommend listening to that one if you haven't already given that this one. If you liked the sharks on this when we talk about other sharks there. But the mystery animal sound hint was this, don't talk with your mouth full.
Sorry I can't stop laughing.
Okay, So congratulations to Ari L.
M roots K for guessing.
Correctly that this is a harbor seal enjoying a fish with his snoot in the water.
Very cool.
So I'm going to hold off on doing a new mystery animal sound game because next week I plan to do a listener Questions episode, so the week after I will do a new one when I have a guest on. But yeah, because I'm doing a listener Questions episode next week, I have not put writing that. So if you do have a question that you'd like me to answer, do write in and maybe I'll answer it next week, maybe sometime in the future, or send you an email. And I do love your questions, so write to me at
Creature featurepodat gmail dot com. Thank you guys so much. Thank you guys for listening. If you are enjoying the show, if you leave a rating and review, that really does help me and I do actually read every single one of them. And thanks to the Space Classics for their super awesome song XO Lumina. Creature features a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or Hey gus, what where have you listened to your favorite shows?
I don't judge you.
Not your mother, and I can't tell you what to do except don't poke a shark unless you are being supervised by experts.
See you next Wednesday. A MHM