Aw, Rats!

They're considered disgusting, little harbingers of plagues. But on September two thousand fifteen, something happened that caused a paradigm shift in public opinion. Pizza rat, Pizza rapp was that in trepid subway rat who dragged a huge slice of pizza down the stairs. This little hero captured our hearts. He's the classic American rags to riches or well rat to pizza's story. But rats are deeper and more complex than

sewer nightmares or pizza entrepreneurs. They are wildly successful urban survivors, highly social, intelligent, and have been the backbone of huge wealth of scientific research. You've likely heard it in the news. Such and such news study has been conducted on rats, or some medication has been found to be effective in rats. It's a grim truth. In order for medicine to advance, rats are often on the front lines. It's a complex moral issue that can't be boiled down to a brief statement.

But this is a podcast, so here here it goes. I love rats and mines and rodents in general, but I think they deserve respect. But I also super appreciate having modern medicine, and I think researchers are doing extremely important work. So today we're going to look at some of this rats science, both to appreciate it from a standpoint of immense scientific accomplishment, as well as taking the point of view of what it would be like to

be a rat. Undergoing these studies with me today is Polo v Ganalan biomedical engineer and an amazingly funny and talented stand up comedian. Welcome, Thank you for having me. So just briefly, do you deal in your research? I'll kind of get into that more later on, but yeah, um, I'm currently a PhD student at the University of Southern

California and Ted Burger's lab. He works on the hippocampus and Hippocampbell Studies and our lab is in the process of creating a computational model of the rat hippocampus UM, and we My work within that is very specific. UM. I'm trying to characterize the different neuron types within the rat hippocampus because there are a bunch of different kinds. And in order to do that, I'm working on using a genetic algorithm, which I don't know. Have you heard

of genetic algorithms before? Not? Really, No, they're really interesting, UM. Evolutionary algorithms UM and genetic algorithms are based on how like populations work. So like in human populations, you have a parent generation and then they breed, they make children. Those breed they make children, you know, and as UM you go down the line, certain things are shifted and

changed according to mutation and crossover with the genes. Right, So they use individuals in the population as they're actually computational models. So each individual is a computational model and the inputs changed based on which individual they are in

the population. So you have a set of models at the top, and then you determine how far off you want their their inputs to be when they have children, and then the models, the computational models breed and have kids, so kind of like, uh, I mean probably this is very oversimplified, but there was that the Game of Life, kind of very early computer game where you would put in a bunch of parameters and then you have these these kind of competing pixel microbes out there and breeding

and competing with each other, and it would run the program and you would see like the population density of these different sort of like programmed in organisms. Uh yeah, except so each UM, each program is actually like treated like an individual in the population. Yeah, So it's like it's just finding a way to explore different inputs and whether the outputs match what we want UM with through mimicking the diversity and in like a population of organisms. Right,

that's super cool. Yeah, it's really fun. UM, but it is very uh you know deep. So with the with the whole like with all the rat experiments and stuff,

I'm like very focused. Yeah, you're focused on this one specific yea thing, which I mean, that's that's kind of the reality of what you have to do when you're when you're doing these um more like the more precise as we'll see like in more historical route studies it's very sort of on the surface, like you put a rat in the maze and see what he does, which

I've also done before. Yeah, I as biomedical engineering encompasses like any engineering applied to the healthcare field, which is a problem in getting jobs because people don't know what we do, what's that we have, because it can range from work with animals, working with cells and my crosscoppy to um, you know, more mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, to computational stuff. And so I've actually been through that whole process.

So I've gone from you know, working with animals and cells, and then I worked on neural probes for a while, which was more mechanical electrical engineering, and now I'm doing computational UM. And part of the reason that I wanted to go to computational was because I was tired of being in a wet lab basically um, because I started in like middle school working in labs, so I was

kind of over it. Yeah. Is it is it the smell or just the general environment, because I have worked in a monkey lab before, and for me, it was the smell that was like the worst. It was, um, you know, it's weird. Is I like when of a lab smells like mice really, yeah, because I'm used to and I'm like, ah, this smells like science. But no, it has to do with, um, just the type of work, because the behavioral experiments are take a long time. They're

very precise. Same with you know, cells, it can take a while to get the results that you want. And I just felt, you know, I learned a lot in my time, and I felt like I wanted something more computationally challenging. I wanted to acquire those skills um. And before I, right before my PhD, I was working in a completely different field in infectious diseases, and I was like carrying around vials of HIV and like nine leaders

of human plasma. And I was tired of the manual labor associated with it because I imagine that's a very like a lot of protocol must be involved. It was

a lot of protocol. I was very happy to be in the biotech industry to learn all the protocol and like how sales works and stuff like that, because in academia you're just kind of you're in a lab, you're just you're very focused on yeah, UM, and so you don't really understand that like practical application of how this like impacts people and how it reaches the general public, the solutions that you find in lab um. So I'm

glad I got that kind of gen all information. But yeah, I was done, Carrie, Like having to wash my clothes irrationally to feel clean at night. It was necessistant a labor um. This is nothing compared to having to carry infectious diseases. But it was a psychology study where we had to trick them into giving us like saliva samples, or not trick them into giving us saliva samples because that would be illegal. But we we took saliva samples for no reason because we wanted them to think we

were studying their saliva. It's like, yeah, yeah, you lie a lot in like these behavioral studies. But like so I'd have to collect the saliva from them and immediately like throw it out, like wash it out, like we

didn't need it. But and it just felt so it was so disheartening to be like, all right, here's this spin and it's like people, it's hard to fill a little wiless but you know, you think that it would be easy, but it's not, because then they had to fill it all the way up and then like you know, got the like spitty tube that it's like I don't need this, Yeah I don't. It's it's going directly in the trash. But you can tell they've worked very hard on giving you the a nice saliva sample and there.

You know, it does feel like a lot of um that those physical like wet labbed experiments require a lot of things that are very like tedious and menial and like disheartening, um be, But it is necessary for the work to be done. Um so somebody has to do it,

and a lot of times it's like grad students. But for Yeah, that's why with the computational stuff, I'm like, Okay, I'm like I have a goal and I'm like trying all these things and it is really hard and it takes a lot longer than people think because computational stuff generally is faster because computers are faster than physical system. Takes time to run a program and then and then there's so many there's so much like debugging and troubleshooting

and none of that matter. I can run it for hours and hours and hours and come back and it's like nope, yeah, which is what's happening right now. I'm sorry, but yeah, when you think rat studies, you probably picture a rat in a maze. Obviously, the wealth of research goes beyond this classic trope, but you're also not wrong.

Some of the most important studies on rat behavior have utilized a maze, and mazes are great for examining learning, spatial memory, and a baseline for measuring performance, cognition, and drug studies. But what would it be like to be a rat in a maze with no GPS to help you? The labyrinth is often used as a horror action device. The idea of being stuck in a maze winding up trapped is scary and disorienting. Let's talk about a real life labyrinth that is more bewildering and terrifying than any

sort of laboratory maze. The miles and miles of catacombs that lurk underground. Last year, two teenagers got lost in the Paris Catacombs. This is no hokey corn maze. There are over two hundred miles of tunnels, some of which had been constructed as quarries during the time of the Romans. In the seventeen hundreds, tunnels were constructed as asco arresting place for human skeletal remains. Due to the crisis of overflowing cemeteries, these catacombs would come to hold the bones

of over six million people. Only a small fraction of the tunnels are open to the public, but that doesn't keep people from venturing into the dark forbidden areas. Needless to say, this is a very bad idea. So imagine being those two lost teenagers in the catacombs. It's dark, dank, cold, and you're utterly lost. How would you get back to the entrance by memory? There's not enough light to see landmarks, and even if there were, there's no map to orient

yourself to. How do you know which tunnel you've been down, which skull lined quarter you've already retraced. Humans, unlike butterflies or cows, don't have a built in compass. We don't have the echolocation of bats or the noses of moles, who can see the world through vibrations. Were pretty pathetic navigators when compared to the animal kingdom. The teenagers are lost for three days, although to them, who knows how

long it felt. Without diurnal information from the light of the sun, it's very hard to keep track of the passage of time, and according to authorities, they were only found things to search and rescue dogs. The dog's ability to track scent was crucial. Without the help of other animals, humans are ill prepared to navigate dark, fractal like passageways. There have been urban myths of people dying in the catacombs.

There's a story of Masha, a woman who allegedly ventured into the Odessa Catacombs, got lost, and died of thirst. There's no proof of this story being true or Masha even being a real person, so it's likely just a legend that taps into our fears. However, there was one life that may very likely have been claimed by the

Paris Catacombs. In seventee, Philip bet as Bet, a Parisian man, descended into the catacombs and was never seen again until eighteen o four, when his body was discovered in the tunnels. So let's find out if rats fare better at mastering the maize than our poor friend Phillybert Aspare. So, I want to ask you to join me on an imagination journey, which I like to do on the podcast. We right on down to imagination station. Um, what would you do

to survive being lost? In the catacombs. Oh man, I would die immediately where I'm so weak, I would I think the main thing is preserving oxygen and like bodily resources, right, so like water would probably water and oxygen. Um, I'd start collecting my P immediately. That's smart, yea, yeah, so how do you what? I feel like there are tricks to like, yeah, I mean I would I would stay Like, I would stop wandering around for one, because like, the more you wander, the more likely you're going to get

disoriented and get further and further away. Like the minute you know you're lost, you stop. You do not keep moving unless you're pretty sure you know exactly like where the exit is, and you probably don't though there's a huge chance that you get disoriented again. Um so I would like probably just stay there and uh. Like the the main threats seemed to be dehydration and exposure to the cold of the catacombs, so starting to get um hypothermia.

Um so I would try to keep warm again, immediately start saving my P, like you know, that's like the first thing you do. Um, hopefully you've got like a water bottle or something you could start. Uh, it's the first thing I done every morning, I know, like I just save my p just in case you never you never know, it's a waste to don't be wasteful. Um uh, yeah,

it's it's scary. It's one of those scary things to me though, the idea of being in the dark and not being able to navigate, like not knowing where you are and just getting further and further into a maze. Yeah, that's yeah, that's definitely terrifying. Do you do the thing like I grew up in Utah and they're like addicted to corn mazes? Do you do the thing where you put your right hand on the wall and you like go or do you Is that a thing? That's interesting?

So the idea being if you put your right hand, you're not going to get turned around at least you'll yeah, you'll still it'll still be left right, you'll have down, yeah, or like you'll know where you've been, like you only go right so at some point you get out. Yeah,

that's interesting. I want I don't know, like I want if you did that in the catacombs, though, you're you'd just be like rubbing a bunch of skulls because they actually line the they line the corridors with human skulls, so you're just like I feel like maybe just like just as you're walking along, um yeah, or maybe you could just get to know some of the skulls really well, like really feel them, feel their facial structure, like, yeah, this is up the skull who's got a weird missing tooth?

Or like count their teeth and that's how you like get a landmark? Yeah yeah yeah, Or can how many skulls are on each wall? Um, I feel like that you won't go insane a media, Yeah, yeah you will. That'll be okay, You'll be fine. Like it's just like, hey, it's just me and all my friends who are skulls several Wilson's Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I feel yeah, I feel like you have to preserve your energy, your p in your ox. Yeah, I keep saying oxygen. But

I don't know how the catacombs are telling you. I think it's I think you would die from exposure. I don't think you would necessarily. I think there's enough in most of the I don't Yeah, I'm not sure if it's I think the air flow is is okay enough. It's not like the death Zone and like the upper Mount Everest where every because like there you will just eventually, yeah,

die of airsickness and deprivation. But have you seen the new there's like these new photos of like the really long line to get to the peak of Mount Everest. A lot of those people died, right yeah, yeah, because they're just waiting and eventually you don't. You can't live there. Your body is not meant to live at that both the temperature and the main problem being like the lack of oxygen. So if you wait too long, you just you will die. Yeah, there were a lot of like

dead bodies because there were too many people up there. Yeah, it's it's so creepy, like I can't imagine, just like because they're talking about people just stepping over dead bodies to get to the peak, and like the peak itself is the size of like two ping pong tables, and so everyone's like cramming into get their pictures and it's just what a statement on capitalism high, I know, I know, just uh it's and yeah, just like you just got

to get that Instagram up, dead body. Did you see their taking pictures, like influencers are taking pictures at Chernol, Yes, I saw that. I saw that. That's uh one of them like popped a butt. That was Oh yeah, she was hella naked. Yeah, that place is still radioactive. Right. Well, So one of the most important earlier routes studies was in seven by pt Young. It's actually pretty have you heard of this one? It's uh, it's actually kind of not as well known because it's weirdly it didn't get

as much attention. It didn't get as many publications. Um, but it's one of physicists Richard Feynman's favorite. That old creepy guy. He was huge in I went to cal Tech for undergrad and he was like a huge person at cal Tech. So we heard a lot of stories about him. But everybody like he was like a physics thod. He was like carouser, right, like kind of a womanizer. He was a womanizer. I hadn't heard anything inappropriate, right, not that he was like not m yeah, not non

consensual crowsing, consensual crops. So yeah, that's why I want I won't call it creepy, but it was he was getting it. Uh. So he he loved this study, this seven routes study. Um. He described it like this, I'm just going to quote him because he puts it in it's a somewhat confusing study, and he phrased it as it in a way that is a lot clearer than I think I could do. So quote, Uh, this researcher, he had a long corridor with doors all along one side where the rats came in, and doors all along

the other side where the food was. He wanted to see if he could train the rats to go in at the third door down from wherever he started them off. The question was how did the rats know because the corridor was so beautifully built in so uniform that this was the same door as before. So basically, you know, this researcher is saying, like, wherever door you come out of, the food reward is going to be three doors down

to the left from where you started. But instead the rats, no matter where they were in the maze, wherever they were put like door number one, two, three, four, whatever, they would always go to the door where the food was last, and they knew where that was. And um, the research was trying to eliminate all of the clues

of like where they were in the maze. So he repainted the doors so the texture of the paint strokes were the same, because he was like, maybe they can tell by the texture of the door, but that didn't work. The routes still found that original door. Um. He thought maybe they were smelling it. That's a pretty reasonable assumption. But he masked all the scent with these really powerful chemicals every time, so there was no way. Um. So

that didn't change anything either. Um. And he also like covered the entire maze up because he was thinking, well, maybe they're orienting themselves, like to the lights in the lab, so the lights on the ceiling sort of like you know, with their little tiny rats sextants, like going like oh here and like um. But that didn't have any effect either. And finally he thought, well, maybe like the sound the floor makes, like they're they're using some kind of like

they're hearing differences in the sound the floor makes. So he filled the entire um mazed with sand and that masked the sound that their footsteps made and that they

couldn't find it anymore. And that was that was the thing. Um. And what's so important about that study besides the fact that you can't you can't trigger at like, it's so crazy that they're just like they could find it no matter what, and it was just this one slight like they could hear I guess, like some slight difference in the way their feet, like maybe it's more hollow there

or something. Um. But Uh, it's so not just in terms of rat intelligence, but the crazy lengths you have to go to to eliminate all of these different outside environmental factors in a study, because that's the hardest thing about behavioral studies is that you don't know if what you're getting is accurate. You just have to say, like, to the best my knowledge, it is because these animals

have there's so many variables. Like wasn't there recently um a study about how mice react differently to experimenters that are male versus female? Oh? Interesting? Yeah, there, I think there's that. There's also um they're like scared of men and so they act differently when they are And so if you ever have an experiment that requires multiple researchers, it has to be the same. Yeah. I think there was also um a recent uh finding about like gender

bias in terms of the rats actual gender. So female rats are often not used in certain medical studies because of their um their minstrel cycles, uh are thought to like, well, that's an inconsistent influence, but there's some concern that you know, this may that kind of the same sort of differences in terms of their hormones. I mean human women have that too, so I know women are crazy what with

their minstrel luninormal bodies. Yeah yeah yeah. And also the fact that everything is modeled after like male animals in every It's like, this is great. Even the rats have to be dudes. I just like how like the solution to um the fact that rats have pesky ovaries is just like, oh, we won't study yeah as much. Yeah, yeah, did you? This is also like a really random like animal fact. But there was you know how they use like messenger messenger pigeons in like the wars and stuff.

There was one I think in World War Two that like was given like this metal because it saved like two people and like it did all these like crazy things. And it's in the Spy Museum in d C. And they have a whole section on these pigeons and uh so it's just like Pigeon of Valor, right, and it's it's lauded for its work and they keep miss gendering it as male. Oh like indifferent interest pigeon. Yeah. Yeah, behind every great male pigeon is it's actually it is

actually just a female pigeon though. That's that's inferior. That's always frustrating, the h the assumption of certain like the assumption that like the more um, I don't know, physically capable animals or males, it's often the females that are, uh, we just endure. I mean, I think what you're saying is we do need to bring feminism to pigeons. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I feel like we could learn a lot. We would, We could learn from each other. Who would

learn the most? Humans are pigeons. Humans from pigeons, we'd learn more. I feel like we would, Yeah, for sure. So So back to rats. Um, pigeons of the ground, the pigeons of the yes, the pigeons of the sewers, the pigeons of the feet, is what I was gonna say, but then I realized that doesn't really makes sense. Um. So in more contemporary science, our ability to be precise

has gotten much more high tech. So um, as you well know, researchers can now use neurotechnology to record rat brains and give nearly real time read out where the

rats think they are in a maze. So you know that the technology of being able to put a bunch of sensors like you kind of implanted into the rat brain and then it gives a feed out that's not super new, but the more real time aspect of it where you can it's instead of taking a lot of time for that data to be interpreted and processed, it's becoming more and more to the point where you can UM basically see where the rat thinks it is in the maze as it's in the maze at the same

time as where it is in the maze. That's like, UM, like, have you heard of Karl Desroth and optogenetics. I have heard of opto genetics, but have not heard of this specific guy. He um figured out a way to use a light to control the brains. Yes, actually, actually maybe I say, I don't know who this guy is, but I may actually know. Yeah, he's at Stanford. He's That field became revolutionized because you could basically trigger different cells to activate using light in real time. UM and that

was a huge breakthrough. And then he had another break through later UM with clear which was turning the brain clear. But but opti genetics was was very like vital to this field. And there you know, there are a lot of animal studies with that. We're actually going to talk

about one. But no, no, that's it's good because like it is a uh when I when I was looking at it, is took a little while for it to think in what it actually was because it's you genetically modify the animal beforehand such that it's uh, neurons can be manipulated with light and then you get the study. But well, we have a pretty fun study that that

uses that technique. Um. So, uh. One thing I wonder about when rats are running through maze is it's always like it's easy to anthropomorphies like that they feel frustration or um. But there is a there is a study that looks at whether they feel regret for bad choices. Um. And of course, with any of these behavioral studies, regrets a very um, you know, kind of uh amorphous concept. It's they probably look at like what lights up in the brain right exactly. So to say that it is

exactly regret is that's a little subjective. But it's like, how do each of us see blue right exactly? Um? But you know, to the extent that we can figure that out. They've they did a study, a University of Minneapolis study that measured brain responses and rats as they navigated a prize maze. Um. The rats basically had to gamble which door to choose. Um. If the rats choose wrong, uh, they had to wait longer for the food food rewards.

So and then they had like a audio cue that basically would tell them like they were trained to associate different audio cues with different lengths of waiting times. Like. Uh, I when I was reading this study, I just imagined the Jeopardy song like playing, and they're like, oh man, I have to wait like two minutes for my food. But it was like certain tones and then one tone would mean you have to wait forty five seconds. One tone me and you wait sixty seconds. So obviously they

want the food now. So longer wait times equals sadder rat, just like me when I'm waiting for like uber eats too. Yeah. Um, so that those the regret was more when they had to wait longer. Yes, So what would happen is they would go to a prize door and they weren't actual doors, but it's like the it's a little bit like weird to explain. They're like these like spokes in the maze where they like they activated it, then the waiting period

would happen. But yeah, so they would approach one, they'd hear this tone where they'd have to wait like thirty seconds. They're like, oh, I don't want to wait thirty seconds. So they'd go to the next door and they're like, well, actually, at this door, you have to wait a full minute. And then they're like, ah, damn it, I should have stuck with that first door where I only had to

wait thirty seconds. So they would look back at the first door and the um their brain pattern would light up with the same pattern that they had when they initially approached that first door and made the decision to leave that first door. UM. So what the researchers interpreted this as showing like they look back and consider this old choice and maybe as a form of regret of like oh I should have done that. Um. It's obviously it's hard to say what the rat feels in the

moment if it is regret. Um, if they're you know what rat regret feels like, But I can I can buy it. I think they could in some you know, different way. Yeah, yeah, I feel like they could. Um. There, I will say like after having worked with rats, they're like really smart, and I like, really you love them as animals and they're very easy to work with. Um. And so you do when you're talking about like anthropomorphizing them,

you totally do that. Yeah. There were so many rats named Pinky in the brain, like at the place that I was working, Like so many, even a couple of mine where it named that um. There is um. The second thing that there is. I remember when I was interviewing for Master's programs, there was a guy at RICE who was working on a really interesting study UM with with erasing their memories. We're going to talk about talking about. I don't know if it's the same one, but we'll

talk about that. And if it's a different study, please tell me about that. Funny. This is great, This is great. So maybe rats can show regret, but can they show empathy? What a rat help you out in a dire maze situation or help you escape the catacombs? Well? I wouldn't bet my life on it, but there may be some hope in A pet rat named Fido reportedly saved a

family from their burning home. As oakes started to fill their house, Fido escaped his cage, but instead of getting out of there, like well a rat office sinking ship, Fido went upstairs and scratched on the bedroom door. The scratching awoke the family and they managed to escape the kicker. The family had a dog who did absolutely nothing to help, so everyone survived and thanked fight of the rat for saving them. So I guess Fido kind of beats the dog in terms of the family's favorite pet now, But

in fact, is this actually empathy? A study in looked at the rescue behavior in rats. When placed in a new environment, they'll often try to scratch it a tube in which another rat is trapped, in an apparent attempt to save them. However, the researchers concluded that the behavior may be motivated more by a desire for social contact and comfort rather than an actual attempt to quote rescue

their companion. The rats seemed to touch the tube regardless of whether they're touching actually free the rat, seeming instead to be interested in interacting with the trapped raft. So maybe Fido's heroism was due to his desire to seek reassurance. And friendship. But that's almost even cuter. Well, rats, we're gonna have to take a quick break, but we'll be back soon with some more rat tails who getting hooked on co came? These are rat tails? Do do do?

Rats and humans actually share a lot of qualities. Were both mammals highly intelligent and social. And here's another interesting quirk. Rats and humans tend to forget distracting memories. Scientific review discussed how rats and humans both have the ability to selectively forget information or memories that are distracting and perhaps

non beneficial. A study found that the act of re calling certain memories and humans replaces related but tangential memories, actively destroying any memory that interviews with our recall of the search for memories, So basically, you have any memory that gets in the way of you trying to remember something related, those memories are destroyed. Bulldozered rats have this

habit as well when introduced to new objects. If one object is given more importance, like they're trained to keep remembering it, they'll quickly forget about the other object, much more quickly than in control conditions where both objects are of equal importance. So in a sense, we're constantly doing Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind on ourselves, erasing memories that are undesirable. But are there more extreme science fiction e things going on in RAT research? So back to

your imagination station? Do you think you would all like, have you seen Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind? I actually tweeted a joke about it, like early day or the day before. I was like, crazy, how in how in that movie? Uh, they totally raised Jim Carrey's memories of how vaccines were weird, that is weird. Somehow germ theory got mixed up in his romance. Did you see

Jessica Biel just came out as anti back. I think she's taking it back, but really I don't know pedaling on that, yeah, I think because she got a lot of backlash. Yeah, So she's introducing a sort of um something that will run that will run counter to the negativity that's coming in, that will sort of attach itself to the negativity and kind of destroy that negativity, you know what I mean? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, like trying to

like detect it protect herself right exactly. So it's like good, it's like good to kind of train her PR team to basically know how to protect her against certain threats to her popularity, and then later when this happens again, they'll actually be really good at protecting her again. Another pr nightmare. Amazing how that? Yeah that was your vaccine joke. Guys, We're hip, We're hip, cool podcast. I was just like, normal, heaven, your children are going to heaven. I feel I don't know,

I feel so bad for those kids. Now, those kids are eighteen and getting vaccinated themselves. They're rebelling by getting vaccinated. Yeah, it's so cool. They're like talking about how stupid their parents are. They are correct. The fact that they survived is like crazy to me, I know, surviving all the way to eighteen with no vaccinations. Um, I mean yeah, it's I love that. It's like the rebellious thing to do now is to be healthy, go to the doctor,

get your vaccines. Yeah, to like be be helly in that way. People are rebelling by going to therapy. People like kids are rebelling now by being politically active and like holding activist rallies and getting Yeah, I mean that's kind of case for a while. Yeah. That's the thing is I think young people are maligned, but I think they are. Also they've always been responsible young, good people. I mean there's always there's always the dabbing, you know, dabbing.

There's some form of dabbing in every generation and that's fine as long as they're getting vaccinated. Um so uh so, would you do eternal sunshine of the spotless mind on yourself? Like? Like, would you ever um wanna like race um either bad habits or bad memories because it is a vaccination against future pain. That's a really good way of thinking of it. I've never thought of it that way. If I did not have the information I have now, I'd be making

so many more mistakes. That is such a good point, Yeah, because it that is basically what memory is for, to train ourselves to be better at doing life in the future. That's why you remember um emotionally traumatic moments traumatic moments in general more than other moments, right, because like what's more important to remember eating a sandwich and everything was fine or that time you took a huge bite of a sandwich and you almost choked death alone in your

own apartment. Yeah. I think I think also works the opposite way, where when it is too sad, you black out, and I think that that is also protective. Yes, that is true. Yeah, yeah, where where it's like if it's if it's just generally unhelpful, um, but it's like super unpleasant,

we we kind of prune those memories as well. Yeah, Like I just like I think of like extremely traumatic moments where people like forget, they'll they'll disassociate, disassociate, and it is like a survival technique because it's not not really helping. Like if you're just being tormented at some point, it's not you're not learning anything that's helpful. It's just hurting pain. Yeah. There's also that thing of where like children like toddlers and younger in emergencies, they fall asleep.

Oh that's so that's so weird because that's almost like, um the what's it called the catatonia and um like when you startle those goats of those cat kittens that have that disorder where um, I think it's like catatonia myopia or something like that. Um, we're like clap and then they fall over because like they're startled and somehow they don't actually I don't think they fall unconscious. It's just all their muscles like spasm and they fall over. Yeah,

they yeah, so, but it is. I think it is like a protective thing for the parents because then the child won't cry. Interesting, So it is it is like the best state for a child to take a baby when something bad is happening is for them to sleep soundly. Yes, yes, so that their parents can be quiet and like take them and rescue them. Yeah. That is so interesting. It's like like they're going into sleep mode so they can

be easily transported airplane mode. So I want to talk about eternal Sunshine of Spotless rat minds, um, just imagine Jim carrying that movie is a giant rat or do we have to imagine? I don't hate him that much. I do hate him for the anti vax. I don't like the anti vax stuff. But as a comedian, he's like such a hero. He's a great He's a great dramatic actor too. It's amazing. So rats who I'm starting to like them more and more the more more I

learned about them. In some ways, they're better than people. But there's researchers at the University of Pittsburgh set up a Pavlovian experiment involving rats. Now I think most people kind of know what with the Pavlovian responses. But just a quick refreshers the study where you ring a bell, dog gets food. Now every time you ring the bell, the dog rules everyone. I think every pet owner knows

what this is. You know, any like slight like package crinkling, like the quietest crinkling of any package in my dog just like well like she's there, suddenly there appears like magic. Um. So, in this study, researchers got rats addicted to cocaine, which happens a lot in uh in rat research. Um. But so they were given an audio visual cue that Harold Harold did their cocaine hit. Um. So, you know, a bell would ring and they'd get some cocaine. The start

wearing leather jacket. Um. So, researchers found that there's increased activity between the thalamus and amygdala associated with the rats anticipation of the cocaine. Eventually, just seeing or hearing the queue made their brains go bonkers, like their brains are like, yeah, it's cocaine time. Um. And so the researchers used optogenetics to selectively turn off the neurons associated with their drug craving.

So we talked about this a little bit earlier. It's the process of genetically modifying neurons so such that there's a sensitive delights. So they'll the lab will create this little rat baby that and their neurons have been modified such that you can kind of implant these these lights into their brains and then once you turn on the light or turn off a light, it affects the functioning

of the neurons. UM. Uh do you know, like do you know anything about like how they how they found that, like they could do this, like how the genetics of Uh. I used to remember the history of it. But I mean a lot of these experiments that are run in general, are run on genetically modified animals. UM. So that part I think, like that's not unusual, that's not novel. UM. But I used to know the history of it because it was so captivating and it was. But it's been

a while since I looked at it. UM. But they I guess they looked. I mean it had to be like a light sensitive UM mechanism UM, And so I think I forget how they attached it. Let me, I don't know, but uh, but yeah, it was like it was a huge discovery. Like everybody who is anywhere near biology knows Carl Desseron right, because you can then, um, do you sort of selective quote unquote brain damage that's actually not damaging the brain, Like you can turn it

back off. It's not is that right? Like it's not a permanently UM. It's literally like you could shine a light and then it changes the activation of whatever the target is, yeah, like instantly, and and then it can also be turned back off. You can look at YouTube

videos of this happening. Yeah, so they I mean channel rhodopsin and all these rhodopsin um proteins are have been known to be light sensitive UM, and so I think he knew that and then you know, like figured out a way to control UM these neurons and so like putting it together is uh. I think the key like the idea that he could use use proteins in that way was the big, big, big leap. That's so cool.

So uh so they have these uh, these rats and they use the optogenetics to UM turn off the the um uh parts of the brain that that part like between the thalamus and the amygdala where that would show excitement every time that the Q would happen. So like they have the the like bell rings are like expecting cocaine. They get really excited. Then they turn a light on, you know, like like turn off those neurons. Uh. And then suddenly like they were able to completely remove the

rats excitement for cocaine. So um just like no, except like they would play that like, hey, Cocaine's a come in bell and then the rats showed no response, like no response in the brain. Uh like because like beforehand, their brains were going absolutely crazy, like totally firing, like super excited for that head of cocaine and then now

just like nothing, just like totally cool and fine. And it's really kind of a cool thing because um, especially like we're you know, as maybe we start to shift the paradigm of how we see addiction as like a medical issue and not like a moral failing. Um. You know, the research into how you treat addiction, it's really important.

And this is I mean, it's way far away from ever being able to be applied to humans because we don't have like we haven't started like having um opt genetic babies that you know, where you can turn human brains off with lights, but it is, um it it does show that that's a black Marror episode. Oh they should do that. It's like, what if you turn your light off, the brain turned off, or if you turn a light, I mean your brain just turned off. That That show is really good and like coming from a

person who worked on neural probes, like, it's so fun watch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I can't get over the pig fucking episode though. That was the first one that was a rough one to start on Bold. I liked it. I was like, what but yeah, um so I think, like, uh, I feel like that could happen. It definitely feels like right now.

So so, um, I look at it in terms of, like, um, the neural probe stuff, because that's what I'm more familiar with, Like with Parkinson's disease, there's deep brain stimulations, um there. You know, there's other ways of moving prosthetics and stuff. With neural probes electrodes, youre in certain to the brain and then you can use a computer to like translate, like there's an ex striking an external device that and like it it actually is it's using feedback from the

brain and then it since adjusting. Yeah, but basically you think and you move a prosthetic, right and so so there are That's the whole point of like a lot of the field is to like figure out where things where neuron spiking causes an external reaction and and taking

in a sensory information as well. UM so speaking, so talking about it in terms of that, like we have come a long way with figuring that out, Like there are people wearing those prosthetics and a fitting from it now and deep brain stimulation in Parkinson's disease has been proven to be Like there are videos of that too where people are shaking. You turn it on, they stop shaking. UM. What is so when when they turn on the stimulator stimulator?

What is that is that? UM? Is that's using UM like an electrical pulse or yeah, so yeah, that's how UM neurons work is their electrochemical They send action potentials through like a singular cell UM and then between cells that can be like electric or electrical or chemical UM with the neurotransmitters that jump from cell to cell and activate the next cells UM electrical potential UM and so yeah,

so it's all electrochemical UM. So you you can send and receive once you're able to like translate the signals, right, those neural signals um. And so it's like it's interesting. So with Parkinson's, like they just send like these signals out and they don't know exactly how it works, but they know that it does. Yes. And so there's that case. And then there's a case with the press aetics where it like it seems to be like a little bit better mapped out, um, but it's still like you know,

they're still it's still rough around the edges. UM. So I do think like we're closer to this than people. Yeah, I think like we're closer to like some parts of Black Mirror, right. And also yeah, in in in talking about addiction, being able to find the areas of the brain that are responsible for addiction and responsible for finding or making the connection like um, because one of the things with addictions that makes it so hard for people too. And this can be any kind of like drug addiction.

It can be gambling or even food addictions, well especially food addictions where um, you'll be triggered by some um something in your environment that makes you, um want to go do the behavior. It can be emotional. It can be something like um, you know, depression or anxiety. It could be simply smelling food or being addict sino and like hearing the sounds of a casino and then that'll UM.

And like obviously with with severe drug addictions, it's a much there's a stronger UM physiological physical feeling UM to the addiction. But it's I think like this rat study is showing us that we can interrupt that feedback loop of of UM, the the addictive nature of a substance and then the response to a stimulus relating to that

addictive substance. Yeah, and I think what you said earlier about UM understanding that it is like a biological response is very It's a smart UM understanding of like the socio the sociological impact UM. It's kind of like when people, I mean this isn't as well known, but like when people found out like that there is like a gene that UH tends to occur more in people who are more violent. UM. And so then you you do realize that these a lot of these are like on and

off switch. Is it's definitely more complex than that. There's like lot more going on, but once you have control over that, then you it's it's just how like pharmacological stuff works. Right, It's like you there are receptors things bind two and that causes this physical response that alleviates your headache, that does all these things right, so that it's the same way, but it's just like different techniques

used to manipulate these cells. So it could be like you know, like pharmaceutical medicine that we are used to taking and comfortable with taking versus uh, you know, optogenizing stuff versus probes. Yeah, I mean it is. Yeah, pharmaceuticals do you literally interact with your cells, bind to them physically, you know, alter your in Pharmaceuticals that have to do with UM, you know, say like UM mental health will

also like physically interact with your brain. So I know that certain certain things like UM, the the sort of cranial stimulation things where it's like the there's both, Like the magnetic stimulation in the can be kind of creepy. Yeah, there's transcarnial uh yeah, magnetic stimulationstics teams and then that's but that's not the one. There's also the uh, the electrical stimulation that's used for like depression, UM. And so it's like when you hear about those things, it seems

kind of creepy because it's like this physics. You're like like it's all it's all physical. Yeah. Yeah, so it's all like that's what that's what I mean Like with the with taking drugs, that like is something that is ingested that then causes a series of events. But in the same way that those electrical triggers also caused those

action potentials and the neurons. So it is it does have to do with like receptor binding in one case and the other case it's just like stimulating and also chemical and electrical or in terms of the brain just completely linked. It's like very closely because it's um the um.

The neurotransmitter activity is what causes the electrical impulse impulse exactly. Yeah, so that the neurotransmitters work between synapses or within a synapse, which is between cells, right, So one cell sends its its message along through its its own body, and then that causes neurotransmitters to be expelled from one cell, hit the other cell and then cause another impulse. Yeah. So it is all very closely linked. And everybody is very

complex and all these things. Uh, each like disease disorder has like an optimal treatment and so it depends on the person in the disease, the disorder. But it's all it all is. It is like you know, turning switches.

It's just I think it's just like a root Goldberg machine or I think and I think when people think about um like uh t mass or or or like quote unquote electrotherapy, it brings to mind sort of the requiem for a dream thing where someone's like in a lot of pain, or like the idea of because there used to be you know, psychology has gone under some pretty big changes in terms of being a lot more humane um and so there were there were like bad practices like using sort of but it was a version

therapy that is like the bad one where it's like you you try to get someone to like stop someone from um, you know, being sexual by like shocking them, And that's not that's not really what we're like a punishment, that's that's yeah, that's not what we're talking about. What we're talking about is like literally like changing the way you think by causing these because that's that's also like that's how we learn. And we were talking earlier about memories.

Synapses can be like weak or strong, and the balance of that is necessary. So you want some synapses too weak in in order for you to be able to learn other things. It's plasticity. It's like it's how learning learning works, and so like there's like the short term way of like you know, having these things triggered so that it changes like how you think like in the moment, but then that change that should affect a change longer term and how your brain functions. Right, It's like it's

like a water channel. So like if you have sort of these different channels and you're trying to get water to flow through them, and that would be sort of a pattern of activation in the brain. If you have like one channel that's really bad, like say like a bad habit, like an addictive behavior or like um a sort of depressive mental mancher or something um that and it gets used a lot, and then that sort of channel is going to get really deep that groove, and

then the water is gonna want to flow through there. Um. So if you can weaken that channel kind of like you know, block it off, then you can um strengthen the other uh neural networks, the other patterns of activation that are more desirable. Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. Yeah, it's it's probably an over much overly simplified, but it's one way that helps me to think about it. If you're wondering if there's a real life example of an eternal sunshine situation, there is, and

it's a bizarre, tragic tail. You may be familiar with retrograde amnesia. It it's often the subject of soap operas. You suffer a traumatic accident and forget everything before that accident, and tower a great amnesia is the flip side of that. After the traumatic event or brain injury, you are unable to form new memories. So you may have some memory of your past preserved from before the accident, but imagine what it's like to be unable to form new memories.

Every day is the first day of your life, literally in a horrifying way. This is such a rare condition that each clinical case is notable. One such case is that of Clive Wearing. He was a brilliant musicologist and conductor before contracting a virus that attacked his central nervous system. The brain damage gave him enter a great amnesia. He was still able to remember certain things about his life, his love for his wife, certain old memories, and he

could still play complex piano and organ pieces. However, his ability to form new memories last only about seven to thirty seconds, so he's living basically half a minute at a time. Every day, he wakes up every thirty seconds. His diary is a terrifying glimpse into his reality. Pages and pages of frantic writing about waking up for the first time, over and over. Use just a small sample. Am, now I am really completely awake. Nine oh six am. Now I am perfectly overwhelmingly awake. Four am. Now I

am superlatively actually awake. We'll be right back after a few messages, so we're back, Uh, Paulo VI, I kind of want to talk to you a little bit more about your work. Um. What you do kind of goes over my head a little bit, admittedly, UM, but it is really cool. We talked a little bit about it earlier, where we established that UM using um uh, the genetic algorithms is it's not the genetics of an animal, it's that the algorithms themselves, these computer model models have sort

of a um computational genome. UM. And Uh, you wrote to me, UM something that when I read it, UM, I think my ears just like started to implode, and my eyes kind of struveled, and like, as I was trying to understand, you say, you use evolutionary algorithm to constrain biophysical parameters of different cell types in this overall large scale model of the rat himp a campus UM, which it's I mean it's for I'm not trying to be glib here. That sounds insanely cool, and from what

you've talked about, it is super cool. So you, like we talked about earlier, you're breeding these computational models and then you have this new model and you're trying to match it to seeing if this new new model with like the new you compare all of them at the

same time. I see it. So you have a population and you're, um, you're like, I'm going to take the top Let's say you have a population of a hundred and you're like, I'm going to te d models And you're like, I'm going to take the ten best models, meaning the ten that most America's top models. I've been Katie Golden UM. And you take the top ten and you're like, I'm going to move that on to the

next generation. UM and so, and then you have like random you can do it different ways, but basically, you evaluate how good a model is by how closely it's outputs match experimental values of these characteristics, which are UM, you know, input resistance, bike, frequency, adaptation, all these characteristics

of neurons UM. And so you're you you match these outputs UM, the inputs change, that's what changes between each model UM and so you're just it's just a way of exploring tweaking the inputs in a more in a faster, more efficient way. So you're like, I'm going to take the best ones, some combination of that might be better than the parents, right, and so I'm not going to

focus on the ones that aren't. Sort of like breeding dog breeds, yeah, but more morally, right, So you're not You're not taking a computer model and bringing it so that every time it sneezes, its eyeballs pop out of its school. I mean we could if if that what if that makes you feel powerful? Yeah, I mean it

kind of. You do sort of sound like the progenitors of a new computer race, Like are you are you at all worried that they're going to start to like develop a consciousness rise up to you know that that whole no Okay, not at all where it is. It's literally like you have to manually program it's so tedious. Yeah, so it's like um and then yeah, so it's not I don't know and I didn't create it. It's a type of program that's been established that I'm just utilizing

for my purposes. Um. But yeah, so I mean that's the basis of it. Um, And you can apply this. It's a it's a technique, it's a process. It's a way of getting closer to the output that we want, right. Um. Yeah, that's that's basically it. Um. So you're also a stand up comedian um. Um. And now this is a pretty hypocritical uh question coming from me, but um, you know it is kind of an interesting thing to me, like

the like, UM, scientists getting into comedy and vice versa. UM, Like how do you feel like these two fields kind of influence each other? Like does your um, your your research influence your comedy? Do you kind of like to keep them separate, like you know, like uh, party upfront businesses? Yeah, kind of like that. Um. It definitely helps to have UM So I love both um and having like my school friends and having this more technical thing to focus

on helps when I feel like to drowning in comedy. UM, but I absolutely love comedy, and I think I think in general, like my education and the way that I think has informed my voice, and my voice informs my comedy. Um and so like now I'm trying to utilize my expertise and use that in my comedy. So I have like the web series that I'm doing, um, Dirty Science, and it's like on my YouTube, my Instagram, and I'm using that to like kind of spread men like scientific

information but through a comedic lens. And I think that helps me stand out. And so like people people like you have like asked me to do this, um, which is gonna like you know, like give me more opportunities. Um and uh. And I do get booked on certain things because of my scientific background, but they want my comedic voice. They just like want someone who can like navigate both realms. UM. I would say my research is not imformant, Like it's hard because like my comedy is

like my personality. So it's like I get along with people because of like how I because of my chom like I don't know, So it's like it's weird to say that it influences. But actually I do think it does because like I kind of look at presentations like sets, and so I'm like, oh, like I've bomb this meeting.

I killed that presentation after so like I kind of like look at it like that, and I actually, um, recently, it's really dumb because like I am not getting enough work done, which is another way my comedy influences my research. It's a it's a good procrastination tool. It's it's amazing, and it's also like it's ramping it's been ramping up for a while, and it's really hard to balance two full time careers UM, and so that's that's been really difficult.

But it did help me, like when this post her award, because I helped in my communication skills and like feeling more confident when I like I wasn't assure of something or well, you know. It's interesting because one of my first ever improv classes it was at UCSD and most of the other students were grad students and uh either science or um a social science field UM or business not none of them like we're really interested in And at the time I was not thinking I was going

into a comedy field. I was working doing pharmaceutical e learning. I wasn't like, I was just like I need I need a break from like talking about diabetes all days. Uh yeah it is. Um. I think like improv especially is like a little bit more inaccessible because it requires a lot of money to take classes. But there are certain areas I do think that we don't realize, Like there are a lot of comedians that come from privilege. Um,

more so than I think anybody wants. My friend Chris Autums, who is really funny, I was talking about this, Um, it's more so than any of us are willing to admit because like we're allowed to have, like we have a safety network and so we're allowed to take career risks like this. Not saying that all comedians are. There are plenty of comedians that have come from like really difficult. Tiffany Hattish is like a prime example of someone who's like succeeded in the face of like all this, you know,

all these obstacles. It's just like it's not comedy. Is not like you're not automatically going to get a payoff from it. So if you don't have like if you're if either you don't have your family as a safety net or like you know, or like a crude wealth or something you you know, I mean, you're gonna get punished for trying to pursue your dream because you don't have uh that kind of like backup in case. Like it. Also, it's like I know that a lot of my comedian

friends are suffering, like they are like poor, um. But it's like if ship hit the fan, if they ended up in the hospital, like somebody would be there for them exactly, whereas I think that there are there are comedians who like there wouldn't be anybody for them, like they would be they would be totally truly fucked um. And it's interesting to see like in different places like in in the Bay Area, like a lot of improvisers they're all tech people. They have the time and the

money to do it. In India they're all like tech and engineering people because they have the time and money and access to do it. Um. So it is like really interesting seeing like where people come from based on where they are and like, um, what what access they have? UM. I don't know why I'm saying all this, what I mean, I think it's a really interesting point because I think that um, it does kind of shape, uh what sort

of the topics of what comedy is about. So we we have kind of a probably in more narrow scope of comedy that does come from like, um, you know a lot of people who went to uh like graduated from college and have this specific perspective. Yeah. Um, you know people talk about like SNL is like they have like the Harvard people and the other people. Right, Yeah, it's kind of like that, but like, yeah, I'm trying to in terms of how it is informing my comedy.

I'm trying to incorporate more in my stand up, specifically more of my perspective with um science and engineering. And it's it's hard to find a way to like educate people. Sometimes I use as a decoy to like have a punchline. We like, look how smart I am? This pussy joke, like you know, like and then that let that pussy

joke in. Yeah. I mean that's what I hope to do with this podcast is like we bait you in as it being a comedy pod or an educational We're like we're going to educate you and then just a pussy joke that right and there. Yeah, So that's kind of like kind of what I do, um, but I'm trying to do the opposite. Actually is just like because most of me is like the silly fun like we're

just like a comedian. It's like that's me. And then I try but like what I'm interested in is like all of these things that sometimes are it's hard for people to hear um, and so then I try to like slip that in there. Um. I think comedy can definitely take the edge off serious topics like unvaccinated children, for example, and mental health issues like just all sorts of things um and so yes, and also like de stigmatized.

So like, because I feel like one of the one of the cool things about comedy is like it seems like most or at least many comedians have had to deal with some kind of mental health issues, and so that it's, uh, it's really destigmatizing because it's just talking about it, like hey, look, you know, I am just a person and then I have this thing, and like, you know, by kind of making it where you can you can sort of do a set on it or have some humor about it, it's really kind of and

I think it makes it a lot easier for other people to go like, hey, know, it's like I have O. C. D two Like, hey, yeah, I've done like I've done those weird things too. Yeah. And it's also like finding the funny like makes people like, yeah, it definitely finds the community within it and like makes them relating stuff. And it is like interesting especially being um, like Indian American, like having family who's like more conservative or whatever, like

be accepting of it. It's just so much more validating because you're like, oh, like they can't it's hard for them to reject like the truth. They can tell you not to talk about it, but they can't deny it, so it's it's hard. It's it's interesting seeing people come out of the woodworks and support you when you expect when like your whole life people have been telling you to stop talking about it, you know what I mean, Like, but through a comedic lens, they're like, oh, like this

is like your truth. It is funny, Like I feel this way too, um and finally like it's channeled somewhere, but yeah, yeah, I think it kind of. Um, it's a it's it's such a disarming kind of medium that it's both good for like like educating on like scientific topics but also social issues like kind of like you know, you you're sort of it's people are um, they're they're disarmed,

They're not they're dukes, aren't up. They're not like prepared to like sort of reject what you're saying off the bat, because you know, you're you're kind of like, hey, you know, I'm going to tell you a joke, like this is a this is a positive interaction already and there, and you're you're acknowledging your behavior, yes, and you're not just you know, lashing out at other people. You're like, I'm this Like Billboard does a really good job of like

like I like him a lot um. He does a really good job of Like he's like I'm like in my head, I'm like angry and like racist and all these things. But that doesn't mean that you have to continue to be that way. And like he's like like I always say, like whenever I think like a racist thought or like you know, because we all have that programming in us, it's like just on learning everything. I'm like my brain's dump Like I'm just like, oh my brain did that stupid thing. I gotta got a thing

about that. And I learned that um. So it's like it's a fun way of like acknowledging all these flaws that we all have and like not ostracizing people for it. That's a really good way to put it. It's it's like you're you're introspecting in a way that's safe because like in comedy, you can make fun of yourself and think about all of your flaws without it feeling really

sort of like self loathing or judgmental. It's more it's like, you know, hey, I'm I do you know, like uh, every time I go to bed, I like stare at the stove for five minutes because I'm worried for some reason the nons are going to be on suddenly, Can

I have O C D? And it's like, you know, instead of like being like oh, that's that makes me weird or like crazy, it's like it's it's actually really funny when you think about it, like like when you talk like using humor to be like yeah, like no, I just did a really Dirk Gass thing the other day, or I did like like I think my thinking is like really weird in this way, and then it's I think, yeah, the key thing um for any progress in any society,

it's like observing and acknowledging what's happening. And I think, yeah, doing that on an individual level means that your heart is in the right place, even if your mind sometimes isn't. Yeah, yeah,

I hope. I also hope that um comedy can you know, because we were talking about the the anti vaccine movement and sort of these almost like and it's the same thing with climate denial or in just like generally denying science exists, that maybe comedy is a way too, because I think people have this perception of science being this like very sort of like just a bunch of like um, you know, stodgy old men in lab coats, and you know, they're totally serious, and some of them are, of course, yes,

plenty of them are, but kidding this is hot mic mic um. But yeah, And and this idea that it's this like really snotty, snobby kind of in flirt well, and again that is sometimes true. But I think that having that outreach of comedy of researcher, you know, it's like, it's so cool to me that you're researcher and you're doing comedy, because that makes it I mean, like I'm a dumbass, just like I just studied this one thing. Yeah, you're a dumbass who studies computational models that of the round,

hippcap real dumbass with ship. I don't know what I'm doing. Just do the next thing. I try different things. I don't know. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This has been really really incredible, and it's so uh it's really an honor to meet you and to talk to you because let's just start laughing. Yeah, that's to meet you. You're lovely. Thank you. I've literally done nothing for science. Uh, but you're a wonderful person. Than what are you talking about? This whole thing is what do

you mean you're on? That's what the funk are you talking about. I've collected people's spit for science. There you go, and you're doing this and and a diarrhea monkey, a contentent Tamarin that had diarrhea had to take care of it.

A noble act a noble act um. So, but I do think outreach is the most important thing, because none of our ship will work if or get to people, and none of it will matter if policy doesn't change, and policy is influenced by people who don't know about something, Yeah, and so we need people to influence it in a possible way. Yeah, it's a great point. Um, so you got anything to plug? You mentioned some of your cool stuff.

You're in the thing. Um. I have Dirty Science, which is my web series and you can find that on YouTube, YouTube dot com, slash Paula Vigan all In comedy and spell my name p A l l A v I g U n A l A n And I'm at Paula Vigan al In on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, um, and that's my website as well. I also run a couple of comedy shows and have my own podcast. Um So I run a facial recognition comedy and oversharing comedy and then Facial Recognition Comedy has its own podcast, Ed's whale.

So don't do a thing and you'll also do research? How? What? How? Yeah? I imagine so. Well. You can follow us on Twitter at Creature feet Pod. Not like feet doesn't gross feet but feet f e T. Really didn't think that went through when I was making that Twitter handle. Uh, there's Creature feature Pod dot com at Creature feet Pod, Instagrams. It's you know, it's all out there. I'm Katie Golden at Katie Golden on Twitter, I'm also propered rights um

or vice versa. Who's who's to say who's controlling whom in that situation? It's I pretend to be a bird on Twitter. Um uh and wait your bird right? Yeah, I know that thing. Wait that's like a famous one. Oh my god. Yes, I've definitely like responded to your ship. Oh my god, I love this. Uh this Jerry Springer twist at the end. I've been the bird the whole time, pro bird right. Yes, it's uh, that's actually how I got into comedy. It's through through the so many people.

Are you kidding me? This is you? Yes, Holy sh it, forget everything I've said. She has four followers and it is hilarious. What's funny is that bird personality of made will always overshadow me as a huge like it. I'll never come close to that bird fame like nobody nobody gives a ship who like Katie Golden has nobody cares. My god, I cannot believe that is totally changing my view of you entirely. And you thought I was a serious person. Oh my goodness. Well, thank you guys so

much for listening. I feel truly privileged to have been allowed in your ear holes. But really, seriously, I'm thankful for everyone who listens to the show. UM. Combining comedy and evolutionary biology is kind of a weird, nerdy idea, and I'm super lucky to have listeners like you. UM. If you're enjoying the pod and want to help me out, please please please leave a writing or review and subscribe. It really does help out immensely. Thank you, Thank you

so much, you guys. I'll be back in your ear holes again next Wednesday. I'm still reading these tweets, and thanks to the Space Classics for their awesome song Exo Lumina.