A. Brief History of Pets!

Do we own pets or do pets own us? We're also going to go into depth on animals, coronavirus and other zoonotic diseases, and how you can protect yourself and your pet. Discover this and more as we answered the Agel question should we be making dog arcades? So joining me today to talk about dogs, cats and the people who love them are veterinarian Dr Lisa Lippman comedian Richie Redding, who are a couple but most importantly host a podcast

together called We Don't Deserve Dogs. Welcome you guys for having us. Thank you. We're big fans, huge fans, such huge fans that we had you on the other week and it was one of my most favorite episodes. Yes, and you're some of your factoids I have, I've battered people with a small gatherings. That's perfect. That's I want people to assault other people with knowledge. Yeah, today we're

gonna talk all about pets. I think right now people are spending a lot of time with their pets, hopefully, and I certainly am spending more time with my dog than I ever have. Our Rhodesian ridge back Chloe has been thriving in this quarantine. She just thinks it's the longest Sunday ever. Yeah. Uh yeah. And a lot of people are getting pets too, so it's another huge thing that's happening. The shelters are clearing out and people are fostering more than ever, and so it's yeah, so it's

a great time. It's a boom. It is interesting because animals have had a long history of helping humans evolved to new situations. So like evolved in the sense of like our we're we're an interesting and unique animal in that our society evolves much faster than our actual bodies, and dogs and companion animals have been totally integral in helping our society evolved. So I wanted to talk a

little bit about the history of pet ownership. Unfortunately, I'm really only going to cover dogs and cats because that is we have the most archaeological evidence on dogs and cats, but it is really fascinating. So dogs in particular are of great interest to geneticists, paleontologists, uh, paleogenomics, biology, archaeology,

and bioarchaeology. So all of these fields are really interested in dogs because they have co evolved with us over ten thousand years, which is an incredible amount of time. So I don't know, do you guys know much about sort of the history of uh, how we came to

consider dogs pets. I mean, I'm sure Lisa has a much better perspective on this, but I mean, I'm just I'm glad that we're doing this because I've always been fascinated by the evolutionary process, from what I understand, is just basically like inviting the nicest wolves in close, like close to the fire, and then and then you get to a puggle as the finished product. That to me is amazing. And are they still involving? Is my other question.

That's I mean, well, we're breeding. I mean, they're making different breeds all the time. I don't really know if we can call that evolution, especially when you when you have people interfere right, because like, for example, the bulldog, the English bulldog would not that is not evolutionarily sound breeding because they wouldn't. They deliver most of their puppies by sea section, and so if they had to do themselves,

they would not be able to. So it's artificial so I action, not natural selection, So I don't I'm not sure. Yeah some days, so it's it's a tough one. But back to how dogs, No, you know, I I guess with evolution, you probably know more about that than I would. So they actually did come from wolves, uh, And so the idea of like how we first domesticated them is a wolf was thinking like, hey, there's a nice fire,

there's scraps by the fire. Maybe i'll be a little bold and go up there and see what's going on. And humans are like, hey, that's interesting. I've never seen a wolf just like kind of come meekly up to

this fire. Let's see how this all works out. And at first we probably regarded these these wolf ancestors to dogs in terms of like what they could do for us, so they could provide us with meat, pelts and possibly work, but likely over time this relationship evolved into more of a panionships, So they became pets in that we use them not just for survival purposes but for companionship and love and in friendship. So how did they provide meat?

Were they hunting with the wolves? Well you're not gonna like the answer to this, but uh, we would actually eat the wolf meat, So we would actually eat these dog ancestors. But it's it's one of those things that it's probably was kind of a fluid relationships, sorry, a fluid or relationships. So probably we would have them around.

Maybe they were good at guarding us, maybe they were good at helping us hunt, but we would occasionally eat them, because when you are in these survival situations, like, hey, you have this animal that is following you around, and even if it's even if you like it, you're still going to eat it if you need need that meat. It's precarious. For the wolf, it is precarious. But you

know they did. It must have not happened enough, or at least it benefited them enough that they stuck around with us long enough for us to be like, hey, you know what, maybe we should be friends instead. So they are thought to actually be the first domesticated animal from over fifteen thousand years ago, so they all evolved probably from a common wolf ancestor, which is also the ancestor of modern day wolf, So they didn't evolve from like sacy a wolf today. It's probably from a common

ancestor that is now presumed to be extinct. So there is some evidence that there were multiple domestication events. One study found there being two separate linear sorry lineages of domesticated dogs from Europe and in Asia around twenty thousand years ago. But there's some debate about this because other researchers think there is like a single domestication event that started in ancient Europe or the Middle East, which then

spread out to the rest of the world. And we're still trying to figure that out by sequencing this ancient dog and wolf DNA. Very cool, yeah, very cool. Were they were the ancient wolves bigger bigger than dogs, like bigger than than than current wolves, Probably not that much bigger. It's just like they, you know, we're a different species

of animal. It doesn't necessarily mean that they were two morphologically different, but that their DNA has changed enough that the modern day wolves and this ancestor are different enough to be considered different special I don't know why. I just think everything that's like an ancient species was just enormous. Well, dire wolves, which were a real wolf, and it actually loves here, yeah, and it lives here in exactly lived

here in North American. In fact, in the tar pits in l A. We've got a bunch of dire wolf skulls, just like a whole mess of them, because a bunch of dire wolves got stuck in these tar pits. And now we have their skulls and we put them on display. And they aren't Game of Throne style gigantic. They were a little bigger than modern day wolves in a little little like um, a little more robust in certain ways, but they weren't like giant like in Game of Thrones unfortunately.

And you didn't have mind control over them necessarily. Well I didn't say that. We don't know. Maybe they did. So it's still like a not known exactly when we started domesticating wolves, but it's it's the more evidence comes in, the earlier it seems to be than we previously thought. So recently, there was a canine skull, which is thought to be one of the early ancestors of modern day dogs that was discovered in a cave in Belgium from over thirty two thousand years ago, which is evidence of

an even earlier domestication than we had previously estimated. I think it speaks to the human animal bond because we've i mean, people have loved them for as long as we've known, so I think that makes a lot of sense with the caveat that they might have eaten them, yeah, snatch the probably they probably grabbed a baby or two in their day to you know, you never know exactly, you know, we eat them sometimes, maybe they eat one of our babies and then we're like, hey, you know,

like let's let's let's talk about this like adult dogs and let's work this out. Call it truce. So current estimates of when the domesticated dogs started to split from its wolf like ancestor is now around twenty seven to forty thousand years ago, and there's a lot of new genetic evidence coming in their sequencing these genomes and trying

to place like when it's happened. But that's currently and which is a lot it's a wide range, but that it's still an incredibly long, reallyation ship that we've had with dogs. So one thing I was curious about is like when dogs went from being a domesticated animal to a pet, Like, like that shift in our relationship with the dog, because at first it may have been kind of a practical working relationship. The the early dogs were

able to get food and shelter from us. We got basically work and sometimes meat and sometimes pelts, but other practical things hunting help They helped us with hunting as well. But like when we started to actually care about them and consider them different from other animals, I think is

a really interesting question. Yeah, I mean that's it's definitely an inflection point in the relationship, right when you go from wanting to seeing each other as a snack, as seeing each other as like a snack in a good way. Is it a good thing? Now you think someone's a snack? Yeah, I think on Instagram somebody's a snack. It's that's what

you want. Yeah. I do wonder sometimes because like I will always tell my dog like I'm going to eat you, and chase around and like I'm going to eat you, and then she like she was she was on my hands sometimes and I wonder if there's still some of this,

like latent desire to like eat each other somehow. I have strong feelings about that for sure, because Chloe will nibble, Like if Chloe gets excited to see me, or she starts like lick me, and then she gets really excited, she will nibble my mouth or my nose like she she does she was like to ch ch and then and then So I'm positive that, like if I were to pass away, that she would eat me, because that's

how they say that. It starts, you know, as they like lick you, they tried it, and then they get over stimulated and then they just get like overstimulated and eat you. So I'm pretty confident. I feel like you're also all about that, like like you're living will should probably be and my carcass goes to Chloe. Yeah, I mean I think there's worse ways to go. I don't know if that's what she wants to do that time with me. Katie doesn't cookie nibble your feet, well, she

bites her feet. She gets angry at her feet. I wouldn't call it a nibble, I'd call it an actual bite because she she hates different. She is angry angry at feet, so she'll she'll nip at angry and anger. I don't think she realizes that they're attached to a person. She's just like, what are these animals? And then suddenly she's she's attacking these strange creatures. But yeah, so it is.

It is an interesting transition from when we maybe consider dogs as like these are these strange beasts that kind of help us around, but you know, we're just we're just cautiously using them to help us survive, to us actually loving them and doting on them. So um, it's hard to say like when we exactly made that distinction and we could have even cared about them even if we did eat them, Like there there could have been something where we loved them but occasionally had to eat

them because you know, in ancient times tears. I think that's probably part of the reason that our relationship with dogs change, is that it's hard to spend so much time socializing with an animal and then make that transition to like, well, you're a burger now. So like about twelve thousand years ago, there's evidence of dog and cat

burial rituals. So twelve thousand years ago, dogs and cats started to be buried with humans, and we don't really know why, Like we don't have any concrete evidence why they were buried with the humans, but it does indicate

a special relationship that we had with them. And around eight thousand years ago humans started bearing dogs with special high value items, which indicates that they that we cared about how these dogs bodies were handled, and we viewed them as as special as is deserving some kind of special ritual, and we we don't know like why necessarily we felt that way. Well, that also like the fact that they buried them with some of them were buried

with high, high valued items and others weren't. Like even back then, dogs could get lucky with who they who picked them or who they picked right like you could you could have be with the chief of the village or the town drunk even back then. I don't know, I think that that's I think that's definitely definitely dependent on how much somebody loves their animal. I think it's

more dependent on that. I definitely have clients who don't have a ton of money but are willing to spend the money that they have on their pet, and then I have very rich clients who will complain about everything. So yeah, you don't want to be a cat belonging to an Egyptian pharaoh and then get buried alive with the pharaoh. Yeah that sucked. Yeah, well, and we've I've had some requests like that where people will put in their will that they want their pets to be euthanized

and buried with them, um when they died. Yeah, oh yeah, I've seen I've seen questions vets. I mean, can they Yes, we can euthanize anything, but I have no no vet worth their salt. Who would youthan I is a perfectly healthy animal, So no, no vet's so I mean, I think what's interesting is that we not only started pampering dogs, but dogs really helped us basically build our human society. So they're kind of multiple theories about how dogs and

agrarian society is kind of interacted. Um, Like some theories previously we're saying like, oh, dogs were domesticated due to farming, but obviously the new evidence suggests that we domesticated dogs way before we started farming, because we started farming like ten to twelve thousand years ago, and there is it's more likely that we already had this relationship with dogs. But as we started to farm, we are relationships with dogs started to become even deeper because dogs would help

us with farming. So apparently like our habit of farming actually changed dogs DNA. So yes, so we were feeding them starchy table scraps like at least seven thousand years ago. So research into dog DNA shows that dogs started to evolve extra copies of starch digesting genes, which probably helped them digest wheat and millet and other farmed crops that they were getting fed by ancient farmers. Yeah. The habit of feeding doggies table scraps that really they shouldn't be

having is very very old, the very old habit. Yeah, and that's how they evolved. Maybe that's where they became like the maybe that's where they became omnivores too, true omnivors, because they are the true omnivore. So, are you just helping Chloe evolve every time you eat? Yeah, I'm just taken it back to you know, you're helping her evolve a bigger stomach. Their metabolism and ability to digest, these things have dramatically changed from their wolf ancestors. So wolves

aren't nearly as omnivorous. That's right, their carnivores, yes, carnivores. This is yeah, where we can also talk about raw diets for people who want to feed their dogs raw diets and talk about, you know, their dogs being kind of like wolf like and stuff like that. So they're not they're not wolves. They are true omnivores um and raw diets carry increased risk of equal i samonella. So

it's not something that I am a big advocate of. Yeah, yeah, Cookie is listening to me saying this, and she's like slowly approaching and going like, oh, so I can have toast then and spaghetti everything in moderation. She gets one strand of spaghetti every time we have spaghetti, and she's gotta jump for it. She's gotta like, like, I hold up the spaghetti and then she's gotta jump and and she likes loved to snatch it out of the air.

She's evolved to be able to eat that spaghetti. It's a magnificent evolution from wolf to a tiny thirteen pound dog that just launches herself at spaghetti. So evidence shows that early farmers highly valued their dogs. So nine thousand years ago, farmers from the near East migrated into Europe and Asia, and they brought their dogs with them. So researchers found that the lineage of these farmers dogs replaced that of the dogs that were originally from those areas.

So basically we found that farmers were like, hey, I need to take our dogs with us because they are I love them, They're are best friends, and they help us farm. And then those dogs took over these areas where the farmers migrated into. So there are many ways that dogs likely helped with agriculture. There's hurting, guarding livestock from predators or other humans, rat catching, and general cuteness. You know, Tommy rubs never heard a farm, so uh,

don't worry, cat owners, I haven't forgotten you. I do want to talk a little bit about our history with cats. Even though it seems like cats have zero interest in helping us, we actually have a very mutualistic relationship with cats. So over five thousand years ago, cats were already helping farmers deal with their rodent problem. So ancient cat bones and china were examined and they were found to contain isotopes that were associated with eating rats that had eaten

domesticated crops. Such as millet. Essentially, they are able to find these compounds that were unique to the farmed crops that the rats would eat, and then when a cat eats the rat, they get some of those in their fossils as well. So we were able to check that these cats ate the rats that ate our crops, which I think is really fascinating. That is wild, That is interesting. That just reminds me of a lot of people get worried because of if rats eat rats that eat rat poison,

and then the cat eats the rat, so what happens? Then? The truth is it's usually a rat can't eat enough poison to poison a cat, So typically it's not a

concern but something to think about. It's more about it happening on a regular basis, So especially for not necessarily for domesticated cats whose most of their diet is from food we give them, but for wildcats like bobcats and mountain lions who actually can start to get sick because all of their diet is from basically rodents or other small animals, and if they are getting a lot of poison, and say you say you have a bobcat or a mountain lion who mostly subsists on some of these rodents,

and these rodents are getting a lot of poison. Then they start it's not necessarily enough to kill them, it just it will make them sick. It will compromise the immune systems, so they start getting sort of like one of the signs is like their coats start to get mange because they have their immune system is like being weakened by them, these poisoned rats and other rodents, and so it's harder for them to fight off the mange.

So it's not as much, Like you said, it's probably not as much of a problem for domesticated cats, but for these wildcats, where all of their diet is is rodents and little animals, they find that's interesting. I hadn't thought of wildcats the domestic cats. Yeah, usually one rat is like not enough, but I guess if they're eating them all the time, and and then there there are other kinds of rat poison. Most of them are illegal here,

but doesn't mean people don't use them. So yeah, there's bad stuff, bad bad, I mean they're all bad, but yeah, these rats are breaking bad. So basically, these cats were coming to human farms and eating the rats and a lot of these cats reached old age. So they found that the teeth of these cats that signified that they were actually quite old, which meant that they were doing very well around these farms, and farmers weren't like shooing

them away or killing them. They were keeping the cats around. And it's thought that humans and cats just were like, Okay, you want to come eat these rats, that's cool with me, Like I'll put out a plate of milk for you. You're great, and the cats are like, hey, this is great, like I like eating rats, and we just it worked out for both of us. And cats are actually pretty unique amongst pets and domesticated animals, and that their DNA

has barely changed from their wild cat ancestors. So domesticated

animals actually often show physical signs of domestication. So like the cute little ear folds that we see on dogs and their smaller teeth is because we've when you're domesticating them, you're selecting for these behavioral traits like less aggression but at the same time less timidity, so the animal will approach you but not bite you, essentially, and that is linked to the adrenal gland development in vitro which just happens to also be tied to saying physical traits like

your cartilage, coat, coloring, teeth size, So it's like you will. That's why both a goat and a pig and a dog will have these floppy ears and in like little spots. It's really interesting. But cats don't have that because they're fair a little creatures. Yeah. I don't like to have to keep talking about COVID, but I think it's an important thing, and I think it's something where it's been going on for such a long time that people are

starting to get tired and fatigued. But then they're starting to think, like, oh, we don't have to worry about it anymore, and like, but it hasn't, like it hasn't gone away. So I do want to talk about We had previously talked a little bit about zoonotic diseases. This virus actually it comes from animals. It's spread from animals to humans, and it actually can spread from humans to animals again like two cats, which we talked about last time.

But I wanted to get really into some more depth about it and how this virus works, how it's able to go from animal to human and human to animal and what are like why we should be concerned about it, and then other other times where people may kind of want to panic but we shouldn't panic. So I know this is very personal for you guys because you have actually been impacted by COVID in your own life. Do

you want to talk a little bit about your experience. Yeah, absolutely, And I think it's a really good thing to start off with, because just like you said, people are getting anxious, people are getting antsy and sort of feeling like, oh, maybe we're at a little bit of a lull, but we're we're really not. I mean until I can tell you, until we have a vaccine or we have clear antibody testing,

I'm not sure how comfortable I will be. I mean, obviously, you we go by the numbers and stuff, but I have been personally impacted, and I'm happy to talk to anybody else who has either been impacted personally or um or isn't sure because I will send you a picture of my father on the ventilator, I mean, or my mother. So basically, on March both of my parents were hospitalized for COVID nineteen and they both had severe bilateral pneumonia.

My um it started actually with G I mostly g I signs, so they had like vomiting diarrhea and and the low grade fevers, and they didn't they never had any shortness of breath until my father went into a crisis. When the third ambulance arrived. We actually had to call three ambulances because the first two wouldn't take them, because that's what this virus does. You look okay, You look okay until boom, you don't. You have what's called this

cyto kind storm. UM. Right, Well, there's also something called happy hypoxia now, which is basically where people will have very low blood oxygen saturation levels where you're not oxygen eating your blood well, but you don't feel it. You feel fine. And normally these are people who would not be able to function UM and so there's been some debate about how to treat them UM for example, of like high high levels of oxygen without putting them on

a ventilator UM. So on March though, when the third ambulance got there, all of a sudden, my father goes, I can't breathe, and he had never complained about breathing before, and he was immediately taken um to the emergency room and intubated and put on a ventilator. UM. My mom was hospitalized also duble with bilateral pneumonia, but at that time she was they were trying to treat her with

oxygen and antibiotics and UM. At that time they had treated them with the hydroxy chloroquine that at that time they remin They were really one of the first ones. So ram de severe was not available to them, covid plasma was not available to them, UM, and so my mom had started that. And what's so scary is that this disease just takes so long to really run its course.

And so my mother was in the ICU and then she got out of the ICU for like literally twelve hours, and then she was back in the ICU because she was breathing at forty breaths per minute. A normal human respiratory rate is somewhere between like twelve to twenty breaths per minute, and at forty breaths per minute, I mean, you can try it. Try breathing at forty breaths per minute.

It's not sustainable or compatible with life. UM. And so that's that's a sign of you're desperately trying to get oxygen in, but you can't actually get enough oxygen in with each breath or exactly exactly, and so your pul socks, your blood oxygen saturation level is going to be really low. I was going to say, you explain the pulse socks, because getting that was what made you realize that it was time to go to the hospital. And that was

one of the things. So what they had had a nurse that was here for them when they were just having the g I signs, and every all of us just thought this was like a bad you know g I like upset or they ate something bad or something like that, because it was so early, and everybody kept saying stay out of the hospital. And but I asked the nurse. At that time, we were just starting to learn that there were g I signs associated with COVID, and I said, well, you know, can you grab a

pulse oximeter from one of the drug stores. So a pulse oximeter is like a little device that usually you put on your finger and it's got a little red light and and it measures how much oxygen is in your bloodstream essentially, and that should be somewhere between is what's considered basically normal um, anything below ninety four, you start to kind of get concerned. And they the nurse took it and it was low. But the thing is they were totally fine. They were not complaining of shortness

of breath. So I was like, oh, you know, can we trust this pulse socks. I don't know. We just we didn't know at the time. We had no idea about the happy hypoxia. But at the time that my mom started breathing at forty breaths per minute, she was also like paying bills, like she was like, I feel fine. She was fighting being intubated and ventilated. She was starting rumors about her own release. She was she was a troublemaker the whole time she was in the hospital, Like, yeah,

I'm going home tomorrow. Like you're breathing it forty times a minute. Yeah, this is serious. Yeah, the pulse socks, it's like forty dollars, and it is apparently the best way from home, like just as as much as your temperature to know if it's time to go to the hospital. Yeah. Absolutely, So I would definitely recommend everybody having a pulse sox. Yep, you can get it usually, like even in like grocery stores will often have it in like their drug store section.

Um Amazon, I think a lot of them are sold. I don't know, but they're starting to come back, or they may just take a little longer to get to you. But if you can find a pulse ox, I would strongly recommend it. But that's where she wasn't happy hypoxy make anymore because she was breathing at forty breasts per minute, which is not sustainable. Do we have any theories on how you're having the hypoxy and not having any physical or are people having cognitive symptoms because usually with hypoxy

you're you're you're cognitive functioning suffers. But like, is it how is it such a I guess invisible condition. Yeah, it's easy. I actually I'm not really sure if we know the mechanism, and and it's very rare. Apparently it

does happen rarely in other diseases. But I mean, this is what was so shocking, because I was like, there's no way that you know, my dad could have a pulse ox of eighty seven and be you know, not complaining of shortness of breath or not having any coughing or breathing difficulty or cognitive impairment or anything else like that. When you talk about cognitive impairment and COVID, I mean, so we know now that COVID can cause all kinds

of weird clotting abnormality. Is so strokes or sudden strokes are certainly one of the things that they see as well. But thank god that didn't that didn't happen in my parents. But I don't think we really know the mechanism by which and I'm not sure, I mean, I could be wrong, but why people have such low blood oxygen levels but um feel just fine or breathe at a normal breathing rate. And that's the happy hype poxia where they look totally normal. They feel fine in the moment, but then that can

lead to a sudden crisis. So it's not not that like you can continue functioning with hypoxy and be okay, like you will eventually have a crisis where you need to be hospitals. Yes, I think what they find also the happy hypoxi, is that they mostly are able to breathe through like other areas of their lungs that are not affected. But but we but that's we don't really know why. So yes, and then all of a sudden, you can have what's called the cytokine storm. Cytokines are

inflammatory mediators that are part of your immune system. But what happens is when you have this massive inflammatory response is actually your body's response to the virus rather than the virus itself at that point, that is causing all that harm um to your lungs and causing this bilateral pneumonia and just like fluid and pus and infection um and inflammation to fill up your lungs and then lungs become fibrotic, which a bus bay basically like scar tissue. UM.

So it's really hard to breathe through. So my dad was on the ventilator for twenty days, so he was actually intubated all twenty days, which is highly highly unusual. My mom was on the ventilator for nine days. It was the most excruciating time of my life for sure. I just all of a sudden felt like I had no parents and I mean they run a business together,

and um, yeah, it was was really excruciating. But what Lisa did and what she mobilized with her network of friends and doctors that are experts, but like you know, she knew everything about the vet or learned everything about the ventilator from a veterinarian, and like, you know, there was she she just remained a step ahead of the doctors and was staying on top of them in a way that like, you know, for me, it was just

nothing but a powerless situation. And um, she had the ability to talk to them, you know, in the language of medicine. That um, I mean, part of it was probably driving herself crazy because she knew so much about it, but like it was, it was able to make recommendations and to really know where they were at all times. That like, it just made me feel all the more for people whose families in this situation and doesn't have

that resource, you know. And I actually had a friend, I actually had a friend who's who lost his father to it. But like Lisa was amazing in shepherding them

through the process. Also, yeah, I think that's one of the scary things about this is that because it's not we don't fully understand it, it's you kind of have to be your own advocate if you're someone you love is showing symptoms of it, because especially in areas where hospitals are overwhelmed you may not get attention right away because like there's this effort to like, Okay, we need to kind of triage like who you know, we're we're giving aid to so, and like unless you really know

like what is happening, it's hard to necessarily say like, oh, well, you know I have I have hypoxia, but the walking kind of hypoxia, Like you're not You're not going to know that as someone who who has it directly. So yeah, it's really or to be in this situation because it happens so because the crisis happens so quickly, which is I think was the difference between I mean, I guess my mom was always a little bit more stable than my dad, and for some reason they're finding it affects

men more than women. But um, but my mom was in the place where they said, you know, okay, it's time to intbate you. Let's do this before it gets to be an ultimate crisis, Like you're in crisis now. You cannot disdain like this, but let's in debate and ventilate you before becomes an absolute crisis. And so that's why you know, she was on the ventilator for nine days and he was on for twenty and for being as unlucky as humanly possible that both of her parents

were on the ventilator. It is miraculous that they both got off, you know, knowing what we know and what the survivability rates are, it's it's really crazy. So so thank god. Right now, my mom is my mom. I picked her up from the hospital and she came home and she recovered. Um, she's pretty. She's recovering still, but she's I'm pretty recovering pretty uneventfully. She had like a little bit of mild vertigo, but um, you know, it took a while. She's still a little tired, but she's

doing all the right things. She's eating, she's sleeping, she's playing cards online now with her friends. That's the other question is a lot of people ask me how I thought that they got it, um, and we're pretty confident that they got it from playing cards in their community.

Somebody that she played cards with did test positive. Which is why I can't emphasize how important testing is, because if I knew that she had been playing cards with somebody would test it positive, but would have sent her to the hospital a lot sooner. And that day that she came into contact with it. I very strangely wound up here. I was doing shows down here in Miami, and against Lisa's doctor's orders, her mom snuck a Jewish mom kiss in on my head the day that she

contracted it. So I literally said to them, I was like, you guys, I was. I was mad at Richie for coming, and I was like, you guys, stay away from each other. Don't touch each other, like really, And so I couldn't kick said, your mom kissed me on the head. And she said it to me too, She was like, I kissed Richie on the head. I was like, okay, whatever. So but he didn't get infected. And that's also the other incredible thing is or he's this asymptomatic carrier. We

will we don't know right now. But so my mom's home, my dad. After forty days in the hospital, Um was transferred to a really intense rehab where he's learning to walk again. And yeah, he had a stomach. And I think that's something that people may not realize is it's not something it's not and I hate to put it this way, but it's like it's not a binary where

you live or you die. Um totally, and because I think that it when you don't, when you don't see like, this is something that not only is the recovery and I'm so sorry that your dad is going through this and that your mom had to go through this, but the recovery can be very long, very difficult, and it's not it's it's it can also have like these really

long term effects for some people. So it's not something where it's like, oh, well, only occasionally you either survive or or you die, and then it's only very rare that someone um dies from It's like, well no, you know, first of all, people are dying from it. But also if you survive, that's not that's not like a walk in the park, that is it. That can be extremely difficult, yeaciating and really hard. Yeah, I mean we were. I was always told, like, you know, your dad's going to rehab.

Now the hard part starts, you know, So I mean, I'm I'm happy to so basically like he couldn't he couldn't pee on his own because when you have a year nary catheter in and you get so weak. He was a hundred and thirteen pounds. I mean, he lost so much weight from being so critical, and so the urinary capeter and when you're when that happens, your bladder just sort of goes to sleep and it's like, Okay, I don't need to work on my own. Plus all the weakness and the decimation. So for a month, over

a month probably he couldn't urinate on his own. So he had an indwelling catheter like a catheter that just stayed put. And then when they tried to remove that, he couldn't urinate on his own. And so he was being he had a urinary catheter. For every four hours he had to be catheterized. So I mean, just disrupts your sleep cycle, your healing cycle. So every four hours he was being catheterized. Now he's being on his own,

which is amazing, which were so happy about. Um. But he also had a great three bedsore, which is like excruciating. And then you have he couldn't move himself, so he had to be turned every two hours. Now he can move himself, thank god, and his bedsore is healing, um, just miraculously quickly. Um. And then um, you know he was golfing the bet he wasn't. He was a very active guy. He was golfing the best golf games of his life. And now he can't write. He can bear.

He mean, he just took a hundred steps for the first time, you know, on his own. So it's definitely gonna be life changing. But you know, nothing is he's had multiple ct s m R. I think, God, he hasn't had any strokes or any of those bascular anomalies or anything else like that. He is a complete He turned seventy three years old. Um, like a couple of

days after he was discharged to rehab, which was amazing. UM. If I could put in a very shameless plug that if anybody is in the mood for a good happy cry um. Just so coincidentally, we happened to be recording and uh talking about it for the first time on our podcast about because there was like two weeks where they were they were vented and we just weren't talking

about it. So probably not our best podcast, but U And during this episode with marking our Territory, her mom called and Lisa was able to able to talk to her for the first time in like ten days. She was a debated. She actually called in the middle of the podect she got off the vent and I mean that was a moment just happened to catch that on. Yeah, like you don't know if you're getting I mean I would, I would definitely cry if I listened to that, and

I have I'm happy to send anybody the videos. So I took a video and my dad because you know, we couldn't see him either, I couldn't be there or see him. No, that's one of the worst parts. I mean, like I don't want to say it's the worst part, because everything is the worst part. Everything is the worst, but it is just such a it's like such an awful thing that you can't you can't be with them

because it is a virus. And yeah, you yeah, I just I knew if right, and I knew that as hard as it was that if I went there and I got infected, who would advocate? Who would do all the things that I was doing and making sure that you know, all of that was happening. Um, yeah, I

think it's important. And it's not not just to like I don't want to just like scare people or terrify people, but like maybe be a little bit just a little more awareness that this is still going on and it's the virus didn't just like get bored and go away like after, you know, because we don't have we we have like there there's been some progress made on more ppe, like some progress made on increasing hospital capacity, but there's we have really kind of wasted a lot of time,

not like we haven't really gotten like contact tracing down. We don't have uh that, Like, we haven't really improved therapies that much, like treatments that much, and we certainly are not close to a vaccine yet, like that is going to take until at least, so it's I think, yeah, it is. I am concerned that I totally understand the fatigue I'm feeling it. I miss people so much right now. I like I want nothing more than to see my

friends and family and hug them. But it it's still impacting people, it is, you know, like and like think about you know, I'm so sorry that you guys have had to go through this, but I'm so happy to hear that your parents are recovering. But yeah, thank god,

Like your parents had access to ventilators. And that went through my mind when we were when the doctor was saying, like, let's get her on a ventilator, was like, oh, well, if we don't do it today, then we might she might not have one tomorrow, because that was another thing like that's so it was so unbelievably scary. Um. So yeah, it's still very real, and we still have absolutely no good solutions to treatment, to tracking, to um vaccines to tracing. I mean we have We're really, I think, in no

better position than we were a month. Not much, not really. It's just abstract until it's on your doorstep. Yeah, And I think it's important to hear that. It's important to hear these stories because when you go outside, just wear a mask. It's such a simple thing to do, and it protects other people. It's not a replacement for social distancing,

but certainly it helps. I feel like your listeners are pretty smart and might be telling that is there anyway we can hijack like Alex Jones's feed and get this

message out there. I think my listeners are a really wonderful bunch, So I hope I don't come across as like I'm lecturing you guys, but I think like it is good for those of you out there who are like talking to people and trying to get people, you know, to understand, like if you want to share this story, it's like so that you have like, look, this is what is happening. It's not abstract. Another thing I wanted to talk about is there's a lot of confusion and

misinformation about coronavirus and pets and animals. And Lisa, you are not only a veterinary but you you have you actually studied viruses, right, actually studied coronavirus and veterinary school. I my my research in veterinary school was coronavirus as sorry was avian coronavirus as a model for stars and people and stars is also another one of those corona respiratory coronaviruses and people that we had that outbreak of. I think though that affected like I mean not even

was it eight thousand people? Eight hundred people? And it was eight hundred people actually, um, and now we've just infected over over a hundred thousands have died from coronavirus as of you know, yesterday. So um. Yeah. So So that was my research was all about coronaviruses and and every species has their own UM and it can manifest differently in avians or birds. With what I was working with, it was a respiratory virus, which is why we used it as a model for stars and people and cats.

Coronavirus can mutate and turn into actually another pretty deadly like g I or systemic disease UM and in dogs also it can be like a mild g I or respiratory disease as well, but usually it's mild and we don't even worry about it. So and you know, coronavirus is also responsible for most of the colds that we have. There's just so many different versions of it, so um, each coronavirus is almost like a different virus. Really, I

have a question that I never thought of. Has there ever been like an epidemic that specifically hit like dogs and cats and um, there there are usually we tend to think about that in terms of like our production animals, so food animals, so um, there are like food animal

viruses that can spread throughout. So one of the concerns, one of the big concerns actually is that pigs um have the same receptors that we do, these ACE two receptors, which I think we're going to get there probably um, but but pigs, if pigs were to get infected with the stars O V to the coronavirus, the COVID nineteen that we're seeing now, that would be devastating economically and obviously to our food chain supply, and those would be

are the most devastating types of viruses. But yeah, there are so just so just so people know. So like when you have for a lot of viruses, the reason of virus isn't just like universal. So like a virus that a uh, say, like a deer can get isn't necessarily one that a human can get. Is because viruses have these surface proteins that bind to surface receptors on your cells, and that basically is like a key that

gets them access to your cell. So like sometimes the virus surface receptors can mutate to be able to fit onto surface receptors of a different species of animal. But in this case, we actually share the same receptors right with the and it's called the ACE receptor right yea, the ACE too receptor yep, So we have basically we have the same shape lock on the surface of ourselves.

In this like the specific surface receptor the stars cove two is not new, it's evolved, it's um it's been Like I said, bats and pengulins, and then you have this what's called spill over, which is where the virus mutates from them where they may not necessarily even become sick from it, and then UM infects us and UM and that happens again because of the that like lock

and key combo that you were talking about. UM. But so, yeah, the bottom line is where nobody is really sure still where I mean, some people had theorized it was from the meat markets in China. Obviously we know what originated there, but because pegulin is such a delicacy in China, that's that was one thought. So we do know that this version of coronavirus can go from a human to a feeline.

So we know that the tiger is the bronx zoo got it from a zookeeper that actually had coronavirus, and where there's evidence that also like house cats can get it. So and that in this case it's not that the virus is necessarily mutating to be able to infect the cats. It's that we share the same receptor, right yep. So we've we've known since you know, we've known for a little while that cats, ferrets or minx, which are part

of the same family UM. Pigs and non human primates have a high density of these ACE two receptors UM and so, but there have been reports of dogs being infected as well, but cats especially and ferrets and pigs are the ones who are definitely the most concerned about

having the same receptors where UM. These viruses will attach their little surface proteins to the cells of the ACE two membrane and then inject their genetic material, which is I mean basically all viruses are are their little parasitic packages of DNA or RNA. UM coronavirus happens to be an RNA. The problem with the RNA virus is that it they're constantly mutating and changing or making mistakes in their their their sequence and so that's what makes it

so hard to actually make a vaccine against UM. But anyway, so what happens is, yeah, they attached to these A S two receptors and then UM they inject their DNA or their RNA, their little genetic material and then tells the cell to make more virus. And that's where you get replication, and that's where you become emphecticist, and that's where you get disease. So yeah, so those animals for sure,

we've been concerned about. Although even a few dogs we know have the A S two receptors but lower level

have been infected as well. So right, So, And it's just it's kind of like a game of chance where if you have a bunch of AASE receptors, you're more likely to get the virus because it has basically it's like this little this little thing that has like a little key and it's trying all the locks, and like if you have a bunch of the locks as compatible with this the proteins that are on the on the virus,

then you're more likely to get infectation. You two are doing a great job of describing this, because so far I'm following and I got nothing. I'm your for Coronavirus for Dummies. Keep it up. Can we write that book by the time Coronavirus for Dummies? Yeah, that book? But yeah, I think And then a natural question that I think a lot of people have is, well, then I could

get coronavirus from like a cat. And I think this is a question that deserves a lot of nuance because I certainly don't want people to panic and like get rid of their cat. I don't think. I don't think any of my listeners would do that. I think all of my listeners are like I write or die with my cat. But you know, I think that there is. It's one of those things where we want to understand. We want to understand it fully so that we can be careful and cautious, but not given to like panic

and fear. The CDC has been saying for a really long time that there has been no evidence of animal to human transition UM. There have been since very recently, very questionable reports of mink farms farmers getting it from minx on their farm in Netherland. Now, again, like I said, these are questionable reports, it's really hard to know what you have to Yeah, mink farmers, Yeah, you do have to sequence the virus from the animal and the human

and see if it's like the same exact sequence. It's really hard to know to say if that's actually what happened or not. That's the only reports I've seen of potential human to animal transition trans transmission UM. But even though the CDC says that there is no UM evidence of that happening, doesn't mean that it can't happen. So

far though we haven't seen it. UM. But one of the biggest things is and where I don't we don't want people to panic is obviously like it's been a very popular time for people to be adopting animals because we're home and they're foster and they're adopting UM. And the best guidance I think I can give is there's a blog I really love called Worms and Germs Blog UM.

It's by a public health veterinarian in Canada, and UM he did a whole post about this actually where he said, you know, should I He's getting the same questions people saying, should I be nervous about adopting cats, you know from uh from a shelter, And the answer is he wasn't worried about it. He actually just got himself a kitten from a shelter. UM. And so the risk is extremely,

extremely extremely low. There's never no risk. Again, there's been no case reports that I am aware of today, and things always change, but as of today, there are no case reports that I am aware of that say that cats or dogs have transmitted it to humans. UM. You know, it's really just about using good hygiene and UM. As long as the shelter or wherever you get your pet from, is using good hygiene, washing hands, making sure that they

don't kiss you, especially if you feel sick. The people who work at the vet kissing you or the cat kissing you, um, well both. I mean you don't want like mouth to mouth contacent because the rest, because the virus is spread through respiratory secretions, if they're going to get it, that's how they're gonna So that's like, for example, what Richie was referring to when we when I got my mother out of the hospital, we still quarantined her for we isolated from her for two weeks. I would

just bring her meals in like a mask and gloves. Um. But I knew, even though there was and at the time even less evidence that dogs could get it, I knew that, Like I didn't want Chloe licking my mom. If she saw my mom should probably lick her and then she'd lick my face. And if that's if there's gonna be any transmission there, even though it's so low level, I just didn't why take that chance. So as long as the shelter is using proper hygiene and precautions, kind

of just like at the grocery store. Then the level the transmission is so so so low, And if Dr Scott Weis can do it, certainly anybody can do it. So definitely reading his blog is a great take on that, and so up to dating conversation also, Um so yeah, so the risk is so so so low. Yeah, so that's good news for everyone considering adopting an animal, I think.

But yeah, I mean, just like I guess, use common sense in the same way that you when you go get groceries, like you're exposing yourself to a new environment, which means like an environment that could have had contact with the virus. And then just use you know, like kind of I don't mean don't spray your cat down with like alcohol or anything hand sanitizer, but yeah, I mean maybe like one thing you could do is just maybe don't give your new pet like mouth kisses for

the first like week or two. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, and just make sure that before and after you have you have contact with them, you just wash your hands and use good hygiene and and um that should be it. And you know what, if instant carts started living delivering cats, also instat cats, I'll set them up. You knock them down. Come on, just getting kittens sight unseen dropped all of your door. I guess the related question would be, so, if you're already a pet owner, how can you protect

your pets and yourself from coronavirus? So, like, I have a dog, and how I've been thinking about it is my dog is like another roommate who makes me scratch your butt? Yeah, totally. I I mean I think looking at them as another roommate is an incredible way to do it because you're the same rules apply as socially distancing, So you know, not letting your pets right now if you if you don't know that the other pet is

healthy or that they live in a healthy household. Just social distancing six ft from other people and other pets and making sure you wash your hands before and after you touch them, you know, not letting random pets kiss your face or kiss your your pet. And then the other thing you can do is also um, you can wipe them down just like with a wet cloth or there are like doggie wipes. So don't use hand don't

use hand sanitizer. Hand sanitizer probably what my hand sanitizers mostly alcohol like probably one you know it won't kill a pet. But obviously no, no skinner wipes. No, yeah, skinners, it's not what you want to do. And obviously we have to keep them clean on because they look there. They look their fur too, so anything you put on

their fur, they're probably getting there. Definitely not what I would recommend it all for sure, but um, they coronavirus is very The one good thing about coronasavirus is it actually is pretty easy to kill in the environment. It has this lipid layer that is affected by That's why alcohol works. It breaks up its lipid layer and and and put polkes holes, right, yeah, and so so that's what I was gonna say. So soap even like dawn dish to churgent is great, like I would you what

you can do? I mean, john is very safe. We use it a lot in like enemas even like um it's a barrier every time don gets mentioned in our household.

Do you think of it as an enema? You you're just doing dishes and she's like, you know that's used in enemas, right, so like so, so not that you need to do what I do, think, um, but like Chloe rolls in like goose poop, every once in a while, and if I can't, if I don't have time to get her in a bath, I will take like some wet paper towel and and wet it down with some Don dish detergent and just like wipe her fur down and just wipe her down because it's so safe. And

if it little stays on there, that's just fine. But yeah, you kind of like it up, then you water it down with a little bit of water, right, yeah, oh totally yeah, yeah, And that's because of the poop, not coronavirus. One of one of the record. We don't think there's virus on the poop. A vetinarian I knew, actually a mobile a house call vetinarian I knew actually was making um like packs because she couldn't find hand sanitizer. She was actually creating these little hands I mean essentially hand

sanitizing cocks with in a zip block bag. She take like sweares of wet paper towel and put in like a little Dawn dish detergent, and then in between whatever she needed when she felt like she needed to clean her hands, she would walk white with the Don dish detergent.

So yeah, it's a it's a really it is really susceptible to detergents and um and so so it's another yeah really great again ye yeah, so that is safe if you do want to give your pets a path, But any bath, any anything should just wiping them down should help. So the general is just everybody has made

out of poison, so touch anybody, yeah danger. So yeah, we were just talking about staying safe from coronavirus and how we can stay safe, how we can keep our pets safe and like keep everybody safe, but also just like how to because during lockdown, it's not just necessarily coronavirus that we have to worry about. It's the change to our lives and our pets lives and how it's affecting us mentally and physically. So I wanted to ask you a few questions Lisa, as a vet about what

this means for caring for our pets. So I think one thing that people may be wondering is like can I still take my pet to the vets? So, like, under what circumstances should I go take my pet to the vet? Can I still do it? And what is your advice as a veterinarian? Yeah, That's a really good question as far as specifically going to the veterinarians. So

know that your veterinarians protocols have probably changed. Um. Most veterinarians that I know are now taking pets outside of the building, not allowing out owners to come in, just like a human hospital. UM, So they take their pet from outside the door. You fill out of form, or you do a triage, or you call ahead and see

what your veterinarians protocols are. Usually a technician will take the animal inside and then a veterinarian will call you or FaceTime you while they're with your pets, so you can still be a part of the exam and everything and know what's going on and stuff like that. Obviously, you don't want to go for just anything right now, you know. I I am an advocate of like you know, if it's something that can be put off, it may be worth putting off. There are a lot of telehealth

services that are popping up now. I'm actually doing telehealth myself UM on my website vets in the city dot com. So I've got to I've got to tell a health service where people want to know is this an emergency? Is this not an emergency, and that's really, um the biggest thing, UM that that people want to know right now, especially in a time where they may not want to leave their house. Call first and find out and I will tell You'll tell you whether you need to come in.

Most veterinarians that I know are so unbelievably busy. They're totally and sung heroes. Obviously I'm not doing it. I'm here taking care of my parents, but they are completely unsung heroes to me because just just at home taking care of your really, that's all. I will help you triage though. But um, but they're so busy right now because so number one, so many people are getting pets and then they're just home all day staring at them. So I think that you know, they see things and

they're able to catch things. And but yeah, I mean there is some there is some phenomenon happening now because I cannot tell you how busy all of my friends are in vetinary practices. So it's always good to call ahead and see what your particular veterinarians protocol is, UM

and how that will be. But veterinarians are certainly considered essential workers and they are open now and um and working, so you can't take as an example, cookie ate a muffin wrapper that was made out of paper, and I panicked for like fifteen minutes, and then I checked out, Okay, is this actually an emergency? Do I have to take her in? And it turns out, as long as they are eating and pooping normally, paper is generally not too

much of a problem. So yeah, but that's where you could have come to me too and said, you know, I would have said, like, yeah, as long as she's not vomiting and she continues usually probably the paper she would digest, And I I did ask you. I asked you because like I happened to be that was when we were recording the podcast, and I was like, like, this is okay, right, and I have a free consultation

because any time for you, Katie. That's also one of those questions that Lisa will just refer to me on occasion, just to see if I've been paying attention to her for the last five and a half years. But our podcast was born out of comedians calling me to ask Lisa stupid questions of like so I think I had three weed gummy bears and I can only find one Lisa, So you're you're the fixer for people who need embarrassing pet Yeah. Yeah, and then we just put them on

the air instead. So another question I have this is actually for both of you, is right now, it's like not only us that needs more stimulation, it's our dogs and cats, right because we can't take our dogs to the dog park. We you know, there's a lot less social interaction with the dogs in their home with us a lot of the time. So like, what what are you guys doing to keep Chloe entertained and like to keep yourselves entertained as well. Yeah, that's a really good question.

So one of the things that I actually did do, which nobody loved because I spent too much money on it, But I'm obsessed with her weight and a lot of people talk about like the COVID nineteen you know, whatever you want to call it, um And that's true for pets because it is hard to stimulate them, and it's so important that they're stimulated both mentally and physically, especially because like she's not seeing her doggy friends now and stuff.

So I actually bought her scale off Amazon because she's for most dogs, for small dogs like Cookie, you can just pick up. You can get onto a human scale, you can hold her, get off way yourself and subtract. I find that actually, so she's a seventy two point eight pound dog is like really long and really difficult to pick up. So for her that was just not an option. I needed like a large dog scale. For most dogs, that's not the case. Most dogs will like

tolerate being picked up. But I don't know what was the what was the final verdict? Did she gain weight or Okay, No, she's been doing great. So you bought one scale for a dog that didn't gain any weight. No, but I need it for the rest of her life. I'm very obsessed with weighing her. What if you got like a you could get a harness and then like a luggage scale and then like hover her off the ground. Yeah. I was thinking to take her to the grocery store and put her in the produce in one of those

little baskets. Yeah, she would be cute there. But I think with Chloe in particular, us being home all the time means she's awake, wait more than she's used to, and that in itself is kind of a form of stimulation. Um. But since we Thank God are out of the city and in the burbs. Like we're just doing like short bursts and like getting her to sprint a little bit. That's uh, well, we're lucky we have a like a backyard area and that she is really good off leash.

So we've been running around with her in the backyard and then going for walks as well around. But I actually also just did a post on this on my Instagram, which I will plug now is Dr Liese Litman. But I actually just did a whole post about um mental and physical stimulation. So there are games you can play with your dog. Um, there are you completely dry. Um, there are treat or food puzzles that they can eat

out of, which makes mental stimulations so much more fun. Um. There's all kinds of training and tricks you can do with them. Uh so yeah, there's lots of things you can do with um since you have the time in your home to keep them mentally and physically stimm. And there's always dog TV, right, true big fan of dog TV. Oh and the other thing that I am doing is

UM shout out run. Yeah. We we have a whistle tracker too that tracks her, so she has a recommended amount of exercise based on her like breed and wait, it's thirty six minutes, um, and like there was one minute that she got. We were both really busy, and like she got eight minutes of exercise and we totally failed at parenting that day. But oh my god, how dare you? Yeah, it was a sleepy day for all of us. Um, But it was also thunderstorms not nonstoppable.

That's true. That's true too. So that does make it hard if you didn't take your dog out for exercise and a thunders I still have guilt about it. But it really does get you moving because it's like, oh, if she needs like an extra five minutes of exercise, like we'll go out and get that extra five minutes. So I really love the whistle tracker for for that

that reason. So yeah, Cookie is her own kind of self tracker because she has these little squeaky toys and every time she requires attention or more exercise, she'll get one of her squeaky toys and squeak it and start whining in pitch with the squeaky toy, and then it just becomes this ever increasing amount of squeaking from the toy and from the dog, and we have to. It's we don't have a choice. We have to pay attention

and play with her going outside. So there's actually some research and this is actually research that's been done on elderly and aging humans and dogs. But I think it actually applies a lot to Lockdown right now, because one of the problems with elderly dogs and humans is that we don't get as much stimulation because of the reduced mobility and not being able to go out and do as many things anymore. So this which is something like now obviously very different from actually aging, but I think

these fine things can apply to our situation. And so, first of all, I think this is kind of neat because like there is some early evidence that therapy dogs may help patients who are living with dementia, and this is like a difficult area to study because it is there's a lot of like ethical concerns where when you have a therapy that seems to help people, like having a therapy dog, and it seems to elevate their mood, it's really difficult to have a control group because then

that means denying people essentially like a therapy dog and and having like a control condition in a controlled environment where you do that. It's it's just difficult to do. So, uh, this is some very like early research, but what we have found from it is it does seem to be a positive effects. So, um, the limited data shows that therapy dogs seem to be associated with increased sociality, decreased stress and aggression, and creased blood pressure and patients who

are living with dementias. So I think that is really interesting that we It's like we have such a long history with dogs and like now we're finding all of these medical therapies like basically like that helps our cognitive health. Uh. By interacting with dogs and then vice versa, we can actually figure out novel ways to care for elderly dogs. So we are able to provide dogs longer and healthier

lives with better nutrition and medical care. But then that means that as they get older and their minds are still sharp, like we have to figure out how to care for them as they have reduced mobility. And there's like this new research. There's this really funny study that like they made these like basically dog game consoles, like a dog arcade game. But you were serious at the beginning when you said dog arcades. Yeah, they made it.

They called it. They called it Dog Computer Interaction or d c I. But it's essentially a dog arcade game and they they like to they have a touch screen that they can touch and like play these games and then get like a treat reward after playing this game. I think it's really funny that they're like looking into basically making like a dog chuck e cheese, which I

would love to see. Um, but you don't really need an arcy fancy arcade set up to enrich your dog, like you were saying, Lucy, you I think we'll probably link to that in the show notes that you're post about, like games you can play with your dog, and there's some research that shows that there's a lot of benefits to um, both like keeping your dog healthy physically and mentally.

So yeah, what you were talking about, Katie reminds me of I. Actually when Chloe was little, I used to play there's something called Apps for Cats and it's basically just like a screen of they're like little bugs that pop up and they just and she used to try to go after them, you know. So um that I mean, and that's sort of the concept of dog t V. Two. And then the other thing I wanted to mention also was actually for actually make this robotic dog for patients

with Alzheimer's and dementia. It's like a high tech robotic dog. I think it's called the tombot. But if you just type in like robotic dog for patients without they make it like it's a stuffed animal, so like they don't actually have to care for it, but it's so incredibly lifelike. And cats too, It's like they have robotic cats that, yeah, that can really help too. So if you're a yeah,

it is, it's really it's really sweet. They are these videos of elderly patients like petting these little animatronic dogs and cats, and it's just because you're older, you know, it doesn't mean that you don't still need all mental stimulation and physical contact and uh, you know, being able to live a full life. In elderly dogs. There have been these research studies on cognitive decline and how there are ways to protect against cognitive decline mind with both

a healthy diet and cognitive enrichments. So they measured it's called a brain derived neurotrophic factor, which it's basically like just like a protein that it both protects existing neurons and synapses and then also promotes the growth of new neurons and synapses. But declines in this protein is associated with neurodegeneration, so basically like a cognitive decline or or your brain health. So they found that enrichment exercises and a healthy diet rich and antioxidants, which by the way,

we actually just talked about last episode. What antioxidants are. It's not just a buzzword. But with this healthy diet and then these cognitive exercises, they were able to keep

that protective protein from decreasing in these elderly dogs. So some of the forms of enrichment that they did was housing animals and pairs, so having a dog that has a companion dog of its own, outdoor walks, and then cognitive tests and enrichment with training and rewards like memorizing where treats are and then finding the treats, and all sorts of games. I'm sure, Lisa, you know lots of games that you can play with dogs that are fun and cognitively enriching. Yeah, a few of them are on

my last post for sure. But anything anything even as simple as just like putting a treat under a cup, like three different cups and moving around the cups and making your dog like choose, or play the shell game with your dog, the shell game the shells or using shells yep, um, any kind of scent work right, And and dogs don't innately know how to use their nose. Sometimes you have to show them or train them. But yeah, there's all kinds of simple games. Ye, and you can

do the same thing for cat. There's actually been a lot of enrichment studies, especially on wildcats that are kept at zoos. So are you guys familiar with the blackfooted cat, the little teeny tiny wildcat. I was afraid you weren't going to get to this. I saw this at like to thirty in the morning on net year wild and stayed up the whole time because it it I think they pitched it as uh as like the world's most

effective hunter. It's one of the deadliest cats in terms of the amount of prey per unit of time it is able to catch and successfully kill. And but it looks like just an adorable to any little house cat. But it's a tinier than a house cat. Yeah, but they're vicious. Wild animals, and I also went on like I went online looking them up and there's so many posts from people like I have a blackfoot a black footed cat, and then it's a thousand people being like, no,

you don't know. If you did it would it would it would scratch your face off it. They are not tame. They do not They're very very shy, and they can become very aggressive when they feel threatened. So while they can't really do much damage to a human, they certainly would not make good pets. But they one of the problems that they have in zoos is like being able to keep this extremely active cat enriched and entertained. So they did this study where they gave these blackfooted cats

a Roman therapy, just cat a Roman therapy. So they introduced odors to these cats, such as nutmeg, cat nip and the body odor of prey, and they found that the cats absolutely loved it. It made them exercise more. This increase in activity, So the aroma therapy worked on these little murder cats and it made them even more excited for murder. Murder cat is a great name for them, is adorable little murder cats. But for your your domesticated cat, there are plenty of things you can do that are

research tested. Uh They also your cat likes a Roman therapy too, especially in the form of cat nip. And some of the things that you can provide easily for your cat to keep them enriched is uh perchase for jumping on comfortable areas. Also like giving them choices, so if you're going to switch their food or their litter, like if you are able to kind of like set up to litter boxes side by side and say, like, okay, which litter do you like best? That choice and that

like autonomy is really important to a cat. They love that. Usually we say one more litter box and you have cats. That's the general rule that that to make cats happy, yeah, if you if you want to see a very uh well, an example of some very well stimulated cats are Stevo

from Jackass. His house is covered with these cat walks that are like up all around the ceiling, and so the the ultimate human daredevil has the ultimate human daredevil cats that they're like they never touched the ground, They're

just all over the ceiling at all times. There's got to be happy cats and having like safe havens too, especially if you have like a how us that has a lot of like other other critters running around, whether they're people or other animals, having little areas to like hide in little nooks and crannies is really will help lower cats stress level. Having puzzle toys and toys that help them express their predatory instincts. They are little murder machines.

And one of the safe things for the environment that you can do and a healthy thing for your cat is to play with them and give them things to pretend to murder. And uh and then also uh, they love to scratch things, and that's very natural. You know, if your cat is scratching your couch and it's driving you crazy, try to get them something safe that they can scratch, like a scratching post or some scratchy cardboard.

Although I know it is a struggle because I had a cat and we gave her every scratchy toy on the planet, but she loved the couch most of all. It was like the forbidden thing, and she loved the forbidden, the forbidden couch. YEA, once they started sort of hard, once they start marking a territory. So I would say, get those scratching posts from the day the stretching posts from the day that they writing posts in the day

that they come home. Um, and you can also like direct them towards it or put cat net on the

scratching post actually to help direct them towards it. There is something called a no bowl feeder for cats where they're actually like five to ten like little mice that are in the like in little bowls, and you put the food in there and instead of feeding them like out of a bowl, you feed them in these little mice and then you put you hide them all over the house so that it actually uses their instinct to because cats actually do get they eat small they tend

to eat smaller meals and get full quicker, and so it does really go to their instinct and keep them more mentally and physically happy. I just always worry about the idea of having the one that they missed just rotting in a corner somewhere, you know, where you hide them. Yeah, yeah, I feel like this circles back to what we talked about in the beginning about how like domesticated dogs like they've learned to become happy by being our companions, and

cats like haven't really changed. They just they're like well, you you liked us because we're murder machines, so we're going to keep being little murder machines. So you know now that I can't get get real rats like you gotta give them fake rats for them to be happy. You change, not me, bro. Well, thank you guys so much for joining me, and especially for sharing your personal story.

I think that's so important for people to hear. And I I'm so sorry that you guys have gone through that, and I'm really glad to hear that your parents are making progress. Thank you so much, Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks, yeah, thank you for having us. This is really super fun, always fun talking with you, Katie. I just wish it was more informative. Un actually I learned more. Yeah, and you guys have a podcast, right, well, I know you do.

I'm it's facetious. It's aficious facetious questions because I know because you were on it and your episode was the best. Yeah, it was a great episode. It's called We Don't Deserve Dogs, available where you listen to things yeah, yeah and people. You can find more tips on animal enrichment from your instagram right and uh, just at Dr Lisa Litman d R l I essay if you put that and it usually comes up, but L I double p s and

Peterman Yeah, and you guys can follow me. Everything is at Ritchie Reading and UH next week, assuming this is coming out soon, I have an album coming out or to be on pre sale. I very modestly named it number one album of the year and it was recorded on the last show before the coronavirus lockdown. It was March ten pm. And you can find us on uh Instagram at Creature feature Pod and on Twitter at Creature feet Pod. That's f e a T, not f e

e T though something grower different. Uh. And you know you can find me if you're interested in my Katie thoughts. I'm at Katie Golden. Uh. It's it's just it's it's random Katie thoughts, not necessarily show related. And you can also as always find me at pro bird Rites, where I try to get everyone to recognize our overlords should be birds. UM. Thank you guys so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show, go ahead and subscribe, download

Press the Stars, leave rating. I really appreciate it. It It really does help. And I read all of them, and I love you all so much uh, thank you so much to the Space Classics for their super awesome song Exo Lumina. Creature features a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit the I heart Radio website, I Heard Radio app or wherever you get your podcast. You guys, see you next Wednesday.