Triplets Separated at Birth

This is an automated transcript, please pardon any errors.
Dawn Davenport  0:00  
Welcome, everyone to creating a family talk about foster adoptive and kinship care. I'm Dawn Davenport. I am the host of this show. But did you know that in addition to this podcast, we also have a nonprofit called, you wait for it here, creating a family. That's it, creating a family.org. It is a national nonprofit that is serving for training and supporting foster adoptive and kinship families. So today, we're going to be talking with a set of triplets that work separated at birth, I think we can learn a lot about adoption, and about how adoption is process, and about separation from siblings and separation from parents. Absolutely fascinating. We will be talking today with Kendall, Julianne and Ricky. They are triplets who were conceived through donor sperm and separated at birth through adoption. They now reside all together in Austin, Texas. And they host a podcast called Luke, who is your father. In this podcast the first season, they talk about their story, and then they're going to expand and have season 234, whatever, that talks about other people coming from unusual family circumstances and help these folks connect and share their stories. Just to get everybody up to speed. I'm going to give the basic outline of their story. Kathleen was married to Lee and Kathleen wanted a child. But Lee did not or wasn't sure. Eventually he relented, and Kathleen used donor sperm to get pregnant. This was not through IVF. So this was a naturally conceived set of triplets. She found out she was pregnant with triplets at some point. And then after the babies were born, she placed two of them for adoption with the same family. Ricky was raised by Kathleen and Lee and Julianne and Kendall who go by Jules and Kenny, were raised by their adoptive parents, Tina and kin. They were reunited occasionally starting at age 11. So hopefully, that is the basic outline guys of the story. So for the audience, and so welcome Jules, Ricky and Kenny to creating a family. We're so glad to have you here.

Unknown Speaker  2:22  
Thank you for being here.

Dawn Davenport  2:25  
I thoroughly enjoyed in fact, I found it interestingly, addicting the first season of Luke, who is their father, honestly, it was suggested by somebody in our audience said, it was a Facebook message and our group saying, Have you heard of this podcast? I said, No. And honestly, people approached me a lot and want me to listen to things or review books and things like that. And I honestly don't have the time to do that much. And I thought, Well, okay, so I started with the first one. And all of a sudden, I was like, I'm gonna listen to the second one. Well, listen, I thoroughly recommend it. It was you did a great job on the store. You also did a great job of being very vulnerable and very honest, which is, I think hard. I don't think it's hard. I know. It's hard. And so I appreciated that. So I'm really looking forward to talking with you. First of all, let me I think we should start with Kathleen who is Ricky's mom and Jules and Kenny's birth mom, and I wanted to talk with her experience. First of all, Ricki, I had a question, why did she use donor sperm? I was guessing that Lee had had a vasectomy, but I wasn't sure. Why did she choose donor sperm? Yeah,

Speaker 2  3:32  
that's exactly right. And just off the top Dad, I'm so sorry. I do want to make one small correction. It is Luke, who is your father, not their father was

Dawn Davenport  3:41  
that? I thought in the correction, I am so glad it makes more sense for your. Alright. I apologize for everyone for that. Oh,

Unknown Speaker  3:51  
don't apologize. Not. It's a mouthful.

Unknown Speaker  3:54  
It is a mouthful.

Dawn Davenport  3:55  
I knew it was Luke, who is your father. So? Yes. Sorry, everybody. When you're going to be looking go look for Luke. Who is your father? All right. So yes, so Lee had had a vasectomy, and vasectomy reversals aren't that effective? And so they just chose or she chose to use donor sperm. Is that the background? Correct.

Speaker 2  4:13  
He had had a vasectomy because he had two children from a previous marriage already. Gotcha.

Dawn Davenport  4:18  
So I'm going to direct these questions primarily to you, Ricky, since you were raised by Kathleen, I think many people would think it is unusual to make the decision to separate triplets. I think we could say that almost everyone would think that is unusual. So why did your mom decide to parent only one child? Yeah,

Speaker 2  4:38  
I would definitely have to agree with that. That is unusual. And I think Kathleen would agree with that as well. Definitely something that she has spent a lot of time thinking about. She ended up deciding to put two of the girls up for adoption because she's completely deaf, and my dad was 58 at the time and in quite poor health already. I mean, he did ended up passing away very early. But the combination of those two things, accompanied by the fact that you said it really well, when he said he relented did not want to have another child, his son had passed away at age 28 in a motorcycle accident. So that was traumatizing for him. And he's just kind of over that I'm looking forward to a marriage with my mom without children. So when they found out that they were pregnant with triplets, when it had been very difficult for him to agree to even have one, he did, essentially threatened to leave the marriage if she had three. So that paired with her being completely deaf, really put her in a pretty tenuous position, because she knew that on the one hand, she would have no husband, three kids, or on the other hand, she could have retain her relationship and keep

Speaker 3  5:51  
one child. And all this on top of Kathleen did not find out that she was pregnant with triplets until she was seven months into her pregnancy. Correct. That

Unknown Speaker  6:01  
is the biggest factor.

Dawn Davenport  6:02  
Yeah. And you know, that is and that was Joe's who was speaking right then? Did she not have prenatal care? Or that's a big mistake if she was getting prenatal care.

Speaker 2  6:11  
Great question. Many mistakes were made to the extent where it completely changed precedent for the two doctors offices procedure. Yeah, moving forward. Yeah. So she had her prenatal care doctor, and then she went to a separate doctor for her insemination. Those two doctors did not communicate well. So after they had confirmed that she was pregnant, she did not have another ultrasound until she was seven months pregnant. Wow, the only reason that she did is because she went in for her routine appointment, and they measured her and she was measuring two inches bigger than she should have. So that's when they made the call to have an ultrasound.

Dawn Davenport  6:50  
Gotcha. And how can he help premature where your birth? We

Speaker 4  6:54  
were five weeks premature. So on top of finding, at seven months, we thought that oh, that's like two months, which is still not enough to prepare for triplets. But then you cut out the five weeks and you got three weeks between finding out you have triplets and then

Dawn Davenport  7:14  
having to crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. And she and Lee didn't have time to really process and talk. Che what's amazing is that she was able to carry you because triplets are often born. Five weeks is early, but it's not. Oh my gosh, early. It's not Oh, you know, these, these babies are going to be in really deep trouble.

Speaker 2  7:33  
She had a pretty heroic pregnancy in general, she had no issues. No complications did not look like she was pregnant with triplets until probably right around that seven month mark. And I still don't think anyone would have guessed it was triplets. That was just when people were sort of starting to say she was a little bit bigger for one baby. So she just had a pretty unusual pregnancy.

Speaker 3  7:56  
She's also she's a large framed woman. She's very tall,

Unknown Speaker  8:01  
very broad, very broad. So I

Unknown Speaker  8:03  
think that probably played a factor as well.

Dawn Davenport  8:06  
I think it does. When I speak as a woman who's five, nine when you're tall. There's a lot of room to spread out before you pop out. So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah,

Speaker 4  8:17  
I think also, this is Kenny. Go ahead. Another factor for deciding on adoption is that we and Kathleen were not well off, and babies are really expensive. And you're looking at three. So I think it was just a perfect storm. Yeah, lay

Speaker 2  8:35  
was going to really be a stretch for them to financially accommodate one child. So when they found out with three weeks less than there were three, it was completely untenable for them.

Dawn Davenport  8:45  
Yeah, at that point. And they worked through an adoption agency published very carefully and because I think she was probably doing this all on her own, which my heartbreaks for her. Me. I just cannot imagine the stress. So she worked through an adoption agency. And Jules and Kenny's adoptive parents, their parents were working with the same agency, obviously. So Tina and kin, back then, I don't know. Did the adoption agency choose Tina and kin? Or did Kathleen have options and she chose

Speaker 2  9:17  
so what happened was my mom wasn't initially working with that adoption agency because she wasn't working with option agency. But her friends civil owned the adoption agency and civil had been caring for my mom while she was pregnant cooking her meals because my father was a long haul truck driver. But that was the adoption agency that Tina and Cam were watching through. And as the girls will tell you, they had gone through a really tumultuous adoption journey up to that point. So Sybil was very glad to have a very obviously pregnant woman who needed help right away. When it was more than one baby that was also I wouldn't call it a perfect storm because it was very fortunate. But it was very serendipitous. So I'll let them take it from there.

Dawn Davenport  10:03  
So Jules, your parents were, they had probably about the same amount of time, probably even less amount of time to prepare for twins.

Speaker 3  10:11  
Yes, I think they probably had about the same amount of time, because I'm sure that Sybil and Kathleen were in contact right away. But my parents they were they got married when they were 26. And they tried from the jump to get pregnant. My mom had gone through a just horrific sexual assault when she was 16. And they think that that sent her into premature menopause. So she started going through menopause at like 2627 28. And they just weren't sure what it was at that time. Because it was that's not your first guess, obviously. So finally, when they started going in for fertility testing, and to see what was going on, they told her that she had a better chance of being struck by lightning twice than having children.

Dawn Davenport  10:55  
I hope they use different I hope they didn't. Yeah, she she that has stuck

Speaker 3  10:59  
with her. Yeah, that has stuck with her. And that's why we know it because it really hurt her to hear it that way. Yeah. And so when they started on their adoption journey, at first, they were going through, I think the Catholic Church, and they said they felt like small fish in a big pond. So when they decided to go through us, you know, more intimate route with Sybil. They did, they had to really, really, my poor mother, and I mean, my father too. But gosh, my poor mom, they had an agreement with one family, that they would be adopting their baby. And then the woman that was pregnant refuse to give the identity of the Father. And they said, Okay, we're not going to risk this. We don't know who he is, we don't know how he could just come waltzing back into our lives at any time and take our baby away. And so they moved on to the next family who this woman they were in touch with for months and months and months with the understanding that she was pregnant, and that she would be giving up her baby for adoption. And very late on into it. She let them know that she had had an abortion, which of course broke my mother's is making me emotional, broke her heart. And they said, Okay, we're gonna need documentation for this to record, you know, for our records, and she couldn't provide that. And then she said she had a miscarriage and they still needed documentation. And she couldn't provide that. And it turned out that she had never been pregnant. And this was just a, and you I'm sure has much more background in that than anyone, I'm sure. So they were losing faith a little bit in this process and a little bit in the agency, which I hate to say, but so I think yeah, when Sybil said, we have a family and how do you feel about twins? They actually called my parents this was back in, you know, 1991. So my parents were in separate locations. It's not like they could didn't have cell phones. Yeah, they didn't have cell phones. And without any discussion between themselves privately they both were like, yes, absolutely. just overjoyed at the opportunity to be able to have twins. And yes, I've had about three weeks notice.

Dawn Davenport  13:10  
Oh, babies don't need a lot. Yeah. All right. So I'm going to ask each of you and well, I guess Jules and Kenny will have the same answer. But we'll start with Kenny, when did you find out that you were part of a triplet set? Because I assumed that Tina and kin knew Tina and Kim knew that there were triplets being born. Right. All right. So Kenny, when did you and Jules find out that you were part of a triplet set? Yeah,

Speaker 4  13:37  
our parents decided to tell us after Ricki. She had masterminded a plan, because she wanted to meet us so bad, she always knew about us. So it was in a time when you go to the mall, you run into people that you know, so she was like, I'm gonna have my mom take me for back to school shopping on I'm gonna ask for her to take me at a mall that's close to where they live. So then maybe I will run into them. And then I will have forced everybody's hands. But when she was at the mall, she was in the shoe section, I think. And she heard a little girl say, hi, Julianne, behind her. And she was like, Oh, my gosh, my plan has worked. They are here. And she turned around and the little girl was talking to her because Giuliana and Ricky looked so much like when we were younger. So Kathleen had to come over and run interference. She was like, you can't tell. They don't know about us like or about Ricki, please do not tell them. But then ultimately she had to write my parents letter and tell them about the incident. And my parents made the decision, I would assume because they didn't want us to find out from this person who had seen Ricky and thought she was Julian. So when we were eight, on or around, Chris Miss, it's kind of fuzzy Christmas or New Year's Day. And they sat us down. And they told us that they had a Christmas present for us. But it was not the kind that could be wrapped. And they showed us a picture of Ricky, the spitting image of Julianne, but like, not the clothes that we had. She had her ears pierced, and we were like, What the heck?

Dawn Davenport  15:25  
My ears pierced. Right? And

Speaker 4  15:27  
they told us that we had a triplet, and then they took us aside separately, and asked us how we felt about everything. And it was, I think, actually pretty anticlimactic for them, because I'm sure they were dreading it forever.

Dawn Davenport  15:39  
I'm sure they were dreading forever. And do you remember? Of course, you were a you may not remember. But Jules, do you remember? Was it anticlimactic to you though? Well, okay. Or was it a big deal?

Speaker 3  15:51  
Yeah, there's been some talk about this. And we actually got the chance to interview someone who is really deep into donor conception and all of that. And she is donor conceived herself. And she said, there's a part of her that felt like she always knew that there were more of her out there. And she found out, you know, much later. And I think that there may have been a part of me or us that felt that way, even though it may have been hard to identify. Because in my parents retelling of the story, they made it seem like I was not that shocked that we did have another sister so I don't you know, I can't identify that feeling now. But I do know that when I was shown this picture, I think I was very surprised. And if so, so weird to look at someone that looks just like you and know that they are not you it is a very, very strange feeling. I think that was more the overarching feeling rather than being really shocked or upset or dismayed or anything like that. I think it was just like, such a weird feeling physically to see someone that looked just just like me.

Dawn Davenport  16:56  
Ricky, did you know from the beginning that there were three babies? Yes,

Speaker 2  17:02  
I did. I don't even remember finding that information out. Yeah, Tina and Canada always send us Christmas cards and occasional update letters to my mom, and she would share those with me. So I don't, man has always been a part of my story. Gotcha.

Dawn Davenport  17:17  
Creating a family. And I am so proud about this curriculum, we have a curriculum, it can be used for either training or support groups. And of course, it's for foster adoptive and kinship families. It is a really terrific resource. Each of the curriculum we have 25 is on a different topic that is directly relevant to what the adoptive Foster and kinship families are asking and wanting to know. You can find out more about it at parent support groups.org. Or you can go to our website, creating a family.org hover over the training and the horizontal menu and click on curriculum. Okay, well, that brings up the part about sending Christmas cards and things such as that. What was the agreement at the time of the adoption, about the degree of openness? And whether or not everybody would tell the girls, you guys that you were triplets but also about the degree of openness between the families? I'm going to direct that question to you Ricky because it probably I want to hear your side what you heard from her mom. And then I'll ask Jules and Kenny, what they've heard from their family. So what was the expectations that you think that Kathleen went into this and perhaps Lily as well, expecting?

Speaker 2  18:35  
Yeah, this whole thing was really fly by the seat of your pants. From the fertilization on it seems like because we've talked to both of our mothers, and they don't seem to remember any formal stipulations around how open or closed it would be. Initially, my parents went to see Tina, and can probably about a month after the verse said everything was great, very friendly. We met up six months after our birth to take some photos, some really beautiful photos. And I think that is when Tina and Ken kind of clammed up because it was very, very prevalent in the news at that time, that a birth family could come and claim their children from the adoptive family up to two years after the birth, and that was happening in the news. And they were showing really visceral footage of birth families coming in actually, quote unquote, ripping children from like the adoptive families arms. So I think after seeing us at that six month mark and understanding how real the situation was, they decided to close it off a little bit more. I don't think it was a formal conversation that was had I don't think any paperwork was signed. I think that they just got a little bit more distant after that. And once the communication became less frequent, I think it just became pretty clear to my parents that At the girls did not know about me, at the very least,

Speaker 3  20:04  
I think we also found out and I'm just now remembering this, I think we found out when we interviewing our moms was one of the coolest things that we got to do, because we've never really gotten their perspective. But I think we found out that the adoption was not legal for like a year, didn't seem to tell us that. And she's usually about her first name.

Dawn Davenport  20:25  
Usually, it's about six months that I'm not saying your case, it's usually the babies have to live. It takes, you know, to six months of post adoption checkups and things like that. Yeah, and just for our audience, just throwing it out there. It is very difficult for birth parents to be able to reclaim children. There's a revocation period by law, and this is the 91. But I don't actually know. But now there's a revocation period. Or maybe some states don't even have that. But it's a very relatively short period of time. And you'd have to show fraud. The only things that sometimes happens is a an identified birth father where the father was never notified. And so that can happen are if the child is a Native American child. And so, but that's not to say that it doesn't sound like either set of parents were being given good legal advice, because I think if they had been talking with an attorney and attorney would say, now that really, you have nothing to worry about, for the most part, it wasn't illegal, per se. They're

Speaker 2  21:27  
recounting of their story. Never once has an attorney been Benjamin? Yes, it seemed like a pretty casual arrangement. Yeah. Also,

Speaker 4  21:38  
I think my mom had a lot of insecurity from the jump about not being able to have babies, it was like, she was knocked down a peg. And then I think when we saw Kathleen, at six months, she just saw, like, the way that we were like, looking up at our birth mom and stuff. And she was like, Oh, my God, they love her more than they love me. And she had to, yeah, she Yeah, pulled

Speaker 2  22:05  
back, because regardless of whether they could have officially reclaimed anyone, I think that that was where the hesitancy began to keep up any sort of normal meeting cadence or anything like that, for fear that they would feel more of a biological pull toward her.

Dawn Davenport  22:19  
I think you're spot on. And you can, when I was listening to your interview with Tina, she more or less acknowledged that I think it was her insecurity. It's not an uncommon insecurity, you so want to be a parent, it is such a natural fear that I'm not really their mom, and that they're gonna figure it out.

Unknown Speaker  22:38  
And it's heartbreaking. Yeah,

Dawn Davenport  22:40  
it's heartbreaking for both sides. Because I can also say that from Kathleen side, she was probably expecting something different. And the rug was ripped out from underneath her too.

Speaker 4  22:52  
I will say, though, we did not find out about Ricky till we were eight. But we always knew that we were adopted. So that was always part of our story. But yeah, I think my mom was just afraid that we would feel the biological pole.

Dawn Davenport  23:04  
Sure. Yeah, I can get that. You know, the podcast focuses the first season on the loss of the sibling connection primarily, between the three of you. I was interested in how that played out differently. So, Jules, from your standpoint, I didn't get the feeling that you were feeling this overwhelming need to connect with Ricky? Is that a fair assessment?

Unknown Speaker  23:30  
Before I knew she existed? For sure, yeah, for sure.

Dawn Davenport  23:34  
Obviously, I meant after that, yes,

Speaker 3  23:36  
in the time period between when we found out about her. And when we actually met, I think there was probably more of a push from me. And that's just a personality thing in general. And we did find out on the season that we are identical. So I think when you know that there's someone out there that looks just like you, I think there was probably more of a push for me, but it was nothing urgent. And I think in going back over everything, we went through all those letters on the on the season. And then I actually had to go back over them to gather some stuff up for a different thing. And it made me sadder the second time around, which was so strange that I was when I was just reading them by myself that I think we had gone over them once in great detail. And then so going over them again. Now I was really able to internalize and it just made me really emotional and sad for Ricky. And I think there's like a little bit of guilt that we weren't feeling that polar that she wasn't reading the same letters like, oh, we want to meet you so bad. And but it was I think the fact that Kendall and I had each other, that only child dynamic is so different. And I think the fact that we had each other Ricky was going through so much and we just couldn't relate to what she was going through. So we didn't see as much urgency in meeting her. Yeah.

Dawn Davenport  24:52  
You read the letters that you wrote to each other, probably, I don't know, eight 910 or whatever. They're adorable. And one word. Well, if any of us have gone back and read what we wrote when we were the only thing worse is really what I wrote when I was 16. But like

Speaker 3  25:11  
your journal y'all didn't that was so much worse. So much worse. Ones were kind of precious. And then when we started getting to high school, I was like, I can't I literally can't read these. I

Unknown Speaker  25:21  
can't. Now

Dawn Davenport  25:23  
cringeworthy, they really were. Yeah. Ricky, it seemed your longing was just painful. It was painful to hear it was painful to it was heartbreaking. Because you clearly had such a great need. And were being denied this. And it was just, I mean, part of me was just like, Oh, come on adults. This is just we're getting to the point of being mean here. I mean, this child needs to, and at the point, I was gonna save that jewels, and Ricky are identical. So sorry. No, no, no, that's no, totally okay. I was looking for the place to introduce it. But not that I think that matters too much. But anyway. So we know that Ricky had a strong need. Kendall, what about you?

Speaker 4  26:04  
I think I'm the reason that it took so long for us to meet her in person, because I have always had a very special relationship with my parents. And I think I was worried that if we met her and Kathleen, that my whole world would change and that our family would be different. And I didn't want that. So I think that I was probably the one to be the hesitant one. And my parents have always kept it very even Steven with me and Julianne, we've always had like, same rules that same punishments, the same everything. And like, I don't think that it would ever be an option for like her to meet her without me and that kind of thing. So they wanted to make sure that we were both ready. But they did end up kind of pulling the trigger and kind of speeding the process up, even though I wasn't ready because Ricky lost her dad. And I think we read the letter, but my dad said that If Ricky had to lose a father, at least she could gain two sisters.

Dawn Davenport  27:17  
Yeah. And Ricky, we're getting ready to move to another state, which would have made getting together even harder. So I think that sounded like that played in as well. Can you were you afraid that your parents might prefer wizard some fear of that, that they might prefer Ricky that now all of a sudden, you know that there was the thing of that play in? No.

Question? No, absolutely not.

Speaker 3  27:51  
No. Golden Child? Was the golden baby.

Speaker 4  27:58  
No, I think it was more probably that Julianne with?

Dawn Davenport  28:03  
Well, yeah, we're gonna come to talking about that, yeah, that you would lose something. Yeah, that would make sense, particularly because they look more alike. So even at a young age. Let me pause here to ask a favor of you. Word of mouth is how most people find out about podcasts. That's how I found out about the lucru is your father podcasts, it was purely word of mouth. And that's how others will find out about the creating a family.org podcast, we would really appreciate you letting your friends know about it. That helps us It helps us in every way that more people that's our mission is to get the word information out to people. So you can help us by telling your friends. Thanks. All right. So it's interesting, because in the adoption world, we focus more on the loss of birth parents, and in particular, the loss of birth moms. And so that's more what tends to be the focus on a lot of the adoption literature and a lot of the adoption research. But knowing indeed, of course, that when someone is adopted, they lose oftentimes, birth siblings, they lose fathers, of course, and extended family as well. So there's a lot of losses, but the research and discussion tends to be more on the focus of having lost the birth mom. And it was interesting to me when I was listening to the podcast, Luke, who is your father, notice that I got it in there correctly this time. Yeah, Diana champion. All right. So yeah, so I noticed that in there, you were very much focused, obviously, because it's the story of triplets being separated. But I was curious for how Kendall and Julianne dealt with the choice that Kathleen chose to parent Ricky but didn't choose to parent you. I mean, that's how you could that's not how it happened. But that's how Now a child might interpret that. So Jules, was there and I want to hear it separately, because I would assume that your answers might be different. How did you process the fact that you had a birth family that was separate and different? And not a part of you? How was that something that you've processed both as a child but also as an adult?

Speaker 3  30:20  
Sure. And I think for you, I'm sure there's so much research out there that speaks to how important it is to tell your children to make their adoption a part of their story from early on. Because I think if we had found out later, there maybe would have been different feelings about that. But I think because it was woven into our fabric, from the time that we can remember that we were adopted. And we were, you know, given so much time to process that that I do not remember feeling ever. Why me why Kendall, why did she keep Ricky and I think it was also very clear, once we started communicating with Ricky, why that decision was made, you know, and I don't want to be crass. But when you know, we're getting videos from Ricky, and she is in a mobile home. And she is, you know, you could just tell that our lives were very different. And we had, of course, been told that Kathleen is deaf and that her dad had already passed away. So I think it was very clear to us, by the time that we were old enough to maybe have had any feelings of abandon abandoned meant that we were in a hate status word, but that we were in a better situation than we would have been. If

Dawn Davenport  31:38  
we had stayed. We should say that Tina and kin were well off. Yes. Yeah. At that time, they ended up having a change in financial circumstances later. Yeah. Your growing up years, they were well off. So you were comparing the fact that you lived in a nice house with many bedrooms, likely a pool, likely a lot of things and no pool. was the 90s.

Speaker 3  32:06  
Yeah, I think if anything, there was just more of like, an empathy for Kathleen, and a wanting to protect our parents, which I think is more where my head goes. And I think about it is that this would get brought up my relationship with my parents, especially when I was a teenager was not sunshine rainbows. And so this would get brought up in arguments and things like that, like, it was almost put on to me that I might feel that way that I'd maybe I did have resentment and then me having a buck against and be like what I literally forget that I'm adopted half the time. Don't throw this in my face. I'm not don't project that on me. So I think that's more where I was coming from.

Dawn Davenport  32:45  
Kenny, what about you? Yeah, I

Speaker 4  32:47  
think the fact that we always knew that we were adopted, played a major role, and then also just how much our parents wanted us and how much they loved us and how much they worked so hard to give us just the best life. That was all we needed and all that we knew. So yeah, I think that's a major thing. Like, don't don't adopt kids.

Dawn Davenport  33:13  
Yeah, we have to work hard to adopt kids generally. So

Speaker 4  33:16  
yeah. But yeah, I think just the love that they worked overtime, I'm sure because we were adopted to show us that they were our parents, and that was always just, there was never any resentment. There was never any feelings of abandonment at all. There

Dawn Davenport  33:33  
was a book that's written many years ago called the primal wound, at the risk of oversimplifying. It's basically the idea that adopted people have a primal wound, have a have a need, have an opening have a hole inside themselves, from the very act of being separated from their birth mother. And it was interesting. It sounds like that about putting words in your mouth, but jaws and Kenny, you don't feel that lack that hole?

Speaker 3  34:01  
No, I would be interested to read that. Because I have had some behaviors in my life that I have always attributed. Well, I can't I don't want to kind of blame them on anything, but went through a really hard time after losing my dad. But I mean, I really wasn't the best kid before that. So I would be interested to read the research, but it's not something I've identified myself, but I would not discount it altogether.

Dawn Davenport  34:31  
It's interesting as listening to the first season, Ricky had the seem to me she had that whole that need, but obviously she was being raised by her birth parents until we die. Then birth mom, but the whole was being separated from you, Jules and Kenny. I

Unknown Speaker  34:49  
think that's totally fair to say yeah,

Dawn Davenport  34:50  
I think he's a you guys should read that. I think

Speaker 2  34:54  
we learn things all the time through talking to each other things that we didn't know bothered us, etc. So I wouldn't discount that, like Julian said, this could be something that comes up much later and not something super visceral. But just something to point back to, in terms of forming as a human being. Yeah,

Dawn Davenport  35:11  
yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah, there's the book. But there's also some others that have written about that. So all of those are something to look at. I hope you guys are enjoying this conversation as much as I am. As you can tell, I'm really enjoying it. I want to pause here though, to tell you about the free courses we offer. Thanks to the jockey being Family Foundation, we have 12 free courses available to you, you can access them on our website, go over creating a family.org, hover over training and click on free courses. And you can also find them by going to Bitly slash J B F support, that's bi T dot L y slash JBf. Support. I want to come back to that feeling of being the odd man out or the odd woman out or odd girl out. It seemed like Ricky, you certainly felt that because Jules and Kendall had been raised as siblings, you know, so they had that. But Kenny, you also seem like you had you've alluded to it earlier, felt that because Kenny was it apparent from the beginning that Jules and Ricky had more of a, an initial connection or not.

Speaker 4  36:29  
They've always been very similar in looks, obviously, mannerisms, personality, that kind of thing. They're very vivacious and bubbly and loud. I'm more of like, quiet to kind of blunt, reserved, sort of not overly excitable. So I think that has lent itself to us feeling a little bit of the odd person out. Just because, you know, it's a lot of powerful personalities competing with each other. And we're all very competitive. So yeah, yeah. Ricky,

Dawn Davenport  37:09  
from your standpoint, was it hard for you to know that you weren't raised with them?

Speaker 2  37:16  
Very much, not so much. Why not me feeling in terms of being raised by their parents or in that situation? But in terms of being raised separately from them? Yes. And that's something we're still navigating that dynamic. today. We haven't had like a ton of time all together. So yeah, I think Juliana is the only one not suffering from the RVM. What was going to come to? Know, and I, I think it will be interesting, because I don't think that that is probably true. But it's still very difficult for me to navigate, like any sort of conflict with them. And they navigate that with each other very

Dawn Davenport  37:57  
well, because they were raised as sisters, and they were used to fighting Exactly. And making up.

Speaker 2  38:02  
Yes. When we were younger, and I was just starting to participate in things with them. I think at times, I did feel a little bit bullied for things I didn't know or something like that. Just feeling very out of place. Yes.

Dawn Davenport  38:17  
Did you ever wish that you could change places and be raised by teenage kids?

Speaker 2  38:22  
I really don't think I did. Somehow. I don't remember feeling that at all. We were not well off. But my parents did love me very much. And I never had to doubt their mutual adoration for me. And it wasn't like I was surrounded by people who were in a different circumstance, that was a communal thing that we all had that we it was a lower income community and difficult things happen to all of us. So it was sort of like a lobster in a boiling pot of water, I guess. But no, I don't remember ever feeling that way.

Dawn Davenport  38:55  
Both of my parents were raised without means. And they have both said the same thing to me that they really weren't aware that they were poor, because everybody around them was in the same boat. And it just never really entered their mind that there were was also at a time when there wasn't a lot of the ability to communicate and see how the other half lives. So that might have made a difference. But yeah, yes,

Speaker 2  39:18  
I think if social media had been a part of our lives at that point, I would have been even more tortured, would have been so annoying. But no, it's not like I was surrounded by people who were going up and skiing in the mountains or having nice meals or anything like that. So I was not exposed to that. So I was not left wanting. I thought my Tweety Bird bedspread in our mobile home was the best thing ever.

Dawn Davenport  39:47  
We would be remiss not to raise the issue of donor conception because I know that part of the latter couple of episodes were talking about your search for the sperm donor. Who was the dry I've been forced for the desire to find a sperm donor. Okay. Okay, the hand raised. I think we all could have guessed that. But alright, so yes,

Speaker 2  40:15  
that was definitely me. My mom told me when I was 13 that we were donor conceived. That was a secret that she had kept from me, because of my father's request, he did not want that to separate us at all. He didn't want me to view him as any less of a father. So after he passed, my mom decided to share that information with me three years later, it wasn't really something I thought about through high school, graduated high school. As a part of my going away. My mom gave me my, our sperm donor paperwork for the first time, which was a lot of biological data. And then like a questionnaire that he had filled out, and his answers were very sweet and funny, and just very sweet. And so we had sort of all collectively raised questions, or at least me and Julia, about that. And then when I turned I think, 26, or 27. That's when I decided to take a DNA test to see if there was anything there because we didn't have a way to find him otherwise. Gotcha.

Dawn Davenport  41:14  
All right. So you and Jules actually met him. I mean, you did find him when you met him. Jules did meeting the sperm donor? Did it fulfill any unknowns? Did it answer any things that were important to you, or you were just along for the ride?

Speaker 3  41:31  
I can say I was just along for the ride, I think. And, you know, Ricky and I have discussed this, because it did have a different impact on each of us. And when we were, we're getting better at talking and actually trying to dig and figure out why things affect us in different ways. And I came to the realization that this was more of the same for me, right? I had met Kathleen before, I had been raised by two people that were not biologically my parents. So to meet this person that had given me half of my DNA, I think I didn't go in expecting to have any kind of aha moments or anything like that. And I did not come out of it. With any sort of aha moments at all. I was just like, great guy. Now I understand where I get my hands and my face from and I was more there for, for Ricky, and he's great. But it was no, it did not have any kind of, you know, I think we all get a little bit nervous when we're like, oh, shoot, what if he listens to this? Because I do it. We don't want that to come across as callous or anything like that. But yeah, it was just my parents were my parents. And we had such a affection and love for our father that I definitely went into it expecting to keep that and still feel exactly that way.

Dawn Davenport  42:53  
Just so that the audience knows. Jules and Kendall lost their dad, Kim, senior year of high school, I think, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  43:01  
two weeks before high school graduation,

Unknown Speaker  43:03  
you write down you are really incredible. You are. You are I am taken aback. You're really amazing.

Dawn Davenport  43:13  
All right. So Ricky, for you, what did finding your sperm donor? Did that answer your questions that it fulfills something that you needed fulfilled

Speaker 2  43:22  
curiosity, to find him and then hear from his family about more about their lineage. But we're very much Greek very much Mexican that it's a family full of architects, artists, lawyers, really highly intelligent people, really successful people that like to do the same thing as we do like art and cook and things like that was really nice, because I'm only so similar to my mother, you know what I mean? So really nice to see where a lot of that came from. It did not fulfill, like a fatherly place for me, or a fatherly hole that was filled by Lee. Right. And I didn't know that until I met him. So I just had to sort of deal with the fact after that, that my dad did pass away. And I was so young at the time that I don't think that I had dealt with that. Like I thought that I could have like a do over or fill that hole. So then I had to reckon with the fact that I can't. So it was kind of traumatic honestly, wouldn't change anything so glad that we did it because there's no way that Julian and I would have left that stone unturned anyway. There's just no way. But it brought up a lot more than I thought that I would. Yeah,

Dawn Davenport  44:41  
I can get that. Kenny, on the other hand, was wishing that perhaps the stone had been left where it was sitting.

Unknown Speaker  44:47  
No, not necessarily. Any for you.

Dawn Davenport  44:50  
You chose not to meet him but knowing that they met him beside anything important. Did they find that information that was an importance to you?

Speaker 4  44:57  
Not really, I don't think If I chose to not go because I had been traveling, and I couldn't make another trip, and also just didn't have this, like huge need to, like meet him, probably similarly to how I felt when we first found out about Ricky, but I don't know what the future holds with meaning him. But it is nice to have, you know, just someone out there that you can share fun things with. And he's been very good about being like proud of us, and that kind of stuff. So, in terms of how it could have gone, I think it's one of the better stories that we've heard with people finding their spoon, we've heard horror stories.

Unknown Speaker  45:46  
feel very fortunate. Yeah,

Dawn Davenport  45:47  
it's complicated. But knowing if nothing else, having health information is huge for many Americans saved. So my last question is, what are the lingering impacts of having been separated at birth? And I'd like to hear each of yours in Kenya, let me start with you. I think Becky has alluded to the fact that it isn't like, oh, it's like we were always together there. The reality is you weren't. So what are the impacts that you see in your life now, in your relationship with them?

Speaker 4  46:18  
I think that the lasting impact is just, we're having to learn what this relationship is what it means, how to navigate it. And it's kind of tough, especially because we haven't historically been super open and vulnerable with each other. So we're kind of just trying to figure out like, how to be sisters, and also friends, and what that looks like for each of us and how we're going to honor that with each other. I mean, I think it can only get better. Hopefully,

Dawn Davenport  46:58  
Ricky, what about you the lingering impacts of separation, I

Speaker 2  47:02  
think I'll always have a little bit of a chip on my shoulder. I think it really influences a lot I do in my life in terms of like having really high standards for other people at this point. And being a bit of a perfectionist. And, yeah, I think it really comes down to always working to overcome that feeling of separation and having a bit of a different attitude about it, I suppose. But on the other hand, I also feel incredibly fortunate because I got what I wanted the entire time. You know what I mean? And just because it hasn't been as easy as maybe I would have perceived it to be as an eight year old, I'm still in a way better position than I was before this happened. So I'm just eternally grateful.

Dawn Davenport  47:45  
And Jules, you are

Speaker 3  47:46  
such a great interviewer. Don, I think we're going to be taking some tips from you. Because I, I feel like my answer to this has probably been changed. Just, it's always changing. I've just had a hard time over the past, probably good decade or so. So I don't know how much of that colors, just how I feel because a lot of meat does, I feel like, the more we kind of talked about it, I do just get a little bit sad. I don't know, I just, we are in such a good place now. And I'm so happy for that. I think the biggest part of me now is just thinking, You know what I could have done better in the process of us coming back together, just kind of grappling with that. And of course, wanting to navigate these relationships in just the best way possible. And knowing that that's not always possible, because we're learning as we go. But overall, I think, lingering effects, we have a great story to tell. Right? Now we're finally in the at the point where we're curious for new information, we want to hear from our moms, we want to know everything that went into this. It's giving us the opportunity to speak with people like you and people in the donor conception, industry and just becoming more We're all thirsty for knowledge always. So becoming more educated about just everything that went into this has been amazing. Of course, building these relationships has been amazing. But I think there will there's it just feels like there's always going to be something to work on and to just get better at.

Dawn Davenport  49:18  
I'm glad that you're all finally living in the same place. Not that you can make up for not having been raised together. But I do think that proximity, and then the podcast is a wonderful opportunity to be it's almost like it's an artifice that's been placed. So you have to ask, you have the excuse to say these things and ask these questions. And you're not being nosy. You know, it's all for the art, you know, we have to So, yeah, so it's great. Thank you so much Johanne, Ricky and Kendall for being with us today. I highly recommend everyone to the podcast. Luke Who is your father. It's on Spotify. I think it's on Apple podcasts, it's on all of them. It's wherever, wherever you're listening to this podcast, you can surely find that and their subsequent seasons are going to be interviewing other people about their own unusual family circumstances. So the second season hasn't dropped. I think it's just the first season

Speaker 2  50:16  
did it dropped a second season is

Dawn Davenport  50:19  
out, guys. All right. So you've got to oh, this is great. So you can binge so you've got two things. I love that if I could get offense going. So you've got the first season which is about their story. And so now you've got a second season. So get on it, guys. Luke, who is your Father, thank you guys so much for being with us today. I've enjoyed it.

Speaker 2  50:40  
Thank you so much, so much time you have really really truly wonderful we so appreciate you.

Dawn Davenport  50:46  
Before you leave, I want to say thank you. Thank you. Thank you to Vista Del Mar. They have been a longtime supporter of creating a family and this podcast. They are a licensed nonprofit adoption agency with over 65 years of experience helping to create families. They offer home study only services as well as full service, infant adoption, international home studies and post adoption support as well as a foster to adopt programs. You can find them online at vista del mar.org/adoption.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai