Transracial Adoptees Teach Us About Adoption

Please pardon any errors, this is an automated transcript.
Dawn Davenport  0:00  
Welcome everyone to creating a family talk about foster adoptive and kinship care. I'm Dawn Davenport. I am the host of this show, as well as the director of the nonprofit creating a family.org. Today we're going to be talking with a panel of adults transracial adoptees. They are the real experts on adoption and we're gonna ask them to teach us about adoption. We will be speaking today with Nathan Faust, he is biracial black byte and was adopted as an infant by white parents in an open adoptions in the northwestern part of the US we also have Rosie Jones. She is a transracial adoptee born in China and adopted by white parents in the US and she wrote a wonderful guest article for the creating a family.org called Home is where sharing her search for identity. I strongly recommend everyone and we will link to it in the show notes here. And we will be speaking with Jessica Luciere. She is a transracial adoptee born in Bogota, Colombia, raised by white parents in Long Island, New York. She works as an adoptee advocate, creating supportive spaces and adoptees for their families. And she works with the Spence Chapin adoption agency. So welcome, Rosie, Nathan, and Jessica. So glad to have you guys here. First of all, let me just say we are speaking about transracial adoption. And I always feel the need to say that yes, it includes white parents adopting black, biracial, Asian and Latin ex children. But it also includes adoptive parents of color who adopt white children. And so many of the issues are the same. So with that disclaimer, let me jump in. I think it would help to begin with just to ground us and who you guys are. Let's start with Nathan, can you tell us your adoption story? How old are you said you were adopted as an infant, but still, how old and what your connections are in relation to with your birth family as well?

Speaker 2  2:00  
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Dawn. So my name is Nathan Faust, I was adopted at three days old, I believe. And my birth parents met in college. As college students, they weren't ready to take care of a child. And so they reached out to the agency open adoption Family Services on whose board I sit now, which is a very full circle moment for me. And so, absolutely never thought about my parents when I was about maybe six months, six months along. And so they formed a fantastic connection. My parents, they were living in Portland at the time, my birth mother was living in Salem, Oregon at the time, so only about an hour down the road. And when I was born, my adoptive mother, she was there in the room as well. And I was taken home for three days. And so over the past roughly well, from zero to 18. As I was growing up, I had my birth mother down the road. And my birth father moved to Australia when I was eight years old. And so it was interesting having my birth family there as well. And really, my connection with adoption. I do work with the board on open adoption Family Services. I'm currently creating a collection of adoption related poetry for a creative grant at Loyola Marymount University as well. And I really speak and advocate for adoption to prospective parents, adoptees as well.

Dawn Davenport  3:23  
Okay. Rosie, can you tell us your adoption story? And if you have any contact with birth family?

Speaker 3  3:31  
Yeah. So I was adopted from China in August 2001. And I was back 16 months old. I was adopted by two white parents, my father and my mother and my half sister, who is nine years older than me. And just because of a lot of systemic and systematic things, I don't know my first family, which is very common for people who are adopted from China. By far the majority. Yes, yes. And so if you do know, somebody from China, who knows their birth family, they probably did a birth family search. So yes, but my little sister was adopted from China a couple years after me. We're not related biologically. So that was cool, because I actually went with them. So I got to see the adoption, family perspective, from a personal standpoint, and then also from my sister's, like, being part of the adopting family as well. So then I grew up in a pretty rural white area in Maryland, and grew up pretty colorblind and that kind of family situation. But I did grow up knowing a lot of the children who were adopted with me and like my gotcha day group, sort of surrounded by a lot of Asian American adoptees, and then when I went to college, I got super interested in race, culture, language, all the things that I didn't really have access to. Well, I will say I didn't have access. I wasn't interested in knowing about growing up. And so actually, I got connected with this organization. When I wrote my senior thesis on Chinese American adoption, and then I wrote a little side piece for creating a family.

Dawn Davenport  5:06  
Yeah. And again, it was focusing on searching for identity as a transracial adopting, we will talk some about that, Jessica, fill us in on your adoption story, as well as your connections to birth family and the diversity of the area you grew up in things such as that.

Speaker 4  5:25  
Sure. Thank you, John, thank you for having me. So my name is Jessica was theory and I am a trans racially adopted person. I was born in Colombia in Bogota, Colombia, and I grew up on Long Island in New York, I was adopted by two white parents, Italian American, and I grew up in a neighborhood with not much diversity at all. And growing up as an only child, I can't say that I was necessarily looking for myself too much within where I grew up, because I don't think that I, as much as I knew that there were differences. And I knew that I was somebody who came from somewhere else. As a young person, I think I was really just, you know, my friends were my friends, my family was my family. And as much as I was, again, proud to be a Colombian adopted person, because my parents had always kind of shared pieces of my culture with me and Megan always been very open and honest with me about where I was born. And my story from a very young age, even so I don't think as a young person, I was really too interested in looking for community, we're looking for people who look like me, I definitely experienced a lot of situations being out to white parents as a, as a little brown girl in curly hair, you know, people speaking Spanish to me, or, you know, kind of looking at me with concern when they don't see people who look like me. So it was in those moments that I definitely was aware that there were differences that I had, that my friends may have had, who were biologically connected to their families. But growing up on Long Island, I had really great experiences with friends and to not experience that much gathering in certain circumstances I did. But looking back on them, now I can see that they were more just people not really understanding what it was like to have an adult person in front of you. And then as Rosie had mentioned, you know, got to college and kind of experienced a sense of culture shots, and a lot of people who looked like me and started to really find interest in finding my place within groups of people who look like me, because it wasn't immediately accepted by those who I shared culture, race for growth language with. And it became not something that I did just to feel like I wanted to fit in. But it was something that was important to me, because I hadn't experienced my culture, my birth language or birth place. Before that. as open as my parents were with me, they didn't bring Colombian culture home to me, I don't think that they really understood I knew at the time that that was an important thing to do. So as I got older, and spent some years in college, and even beforehand, I found my community, I found other people who again, shared the same race or culture with me, but also other adopted people. And through that connection with other adopted people, I became part of a huge network of specifically for one being adopted people all throughout the world. And then that kind of also led me into the work that I'm now doing as a mentor and working in post adoption services, creating spaces for adoptees and their family through the organization that I work with, but also with other different arenas within New York and with the country. Being able to provide those services and spaces for people to grow and learn from one another has been really important for me, because I didn't have that growing up. And just as you know, was mentioned before, where I was a part of a group that was really more focused on my parents having community. I knew other kids who were adopted too, because my parents had, you know, adopted in Colombia and their families that also, but as much as I had that group of people growing up, I can't say that I really connected with them so much on anything adoption related. I am in reunion and I've been in reunion for almost 18 years now. So I'm going from being a normal child to the second oldest of six that I know that they're reunited with my birth mother's side of the family and have spent countless months traveling back and forth to Colombia learning my language, connecting with immediate growth family and external growth family, and it's a roller coaster of experience being in reading and for so many years.

Dawn Davenport  9:28  
We will come back to that because I think that deserves some specific time to talk. You and Nathan have different reunion experiences. Hey guys, have you subscribed yet to our free monthly newsletter? You can do so if you go to Bitly slash transracial guide today. The reason that is your URL is because if you subscribe today, you will be getting a new wonderful downloadable guide called strengthening and support Get your transracial adoptee directly on point for the topics of today's show. Again, go to Bitly bi T dot L y slash trans racial guide all one word. Let me start with a more general question. And Rosie, I'll start with you just to mix things up. How did your parents treat adoption? And how did and does that make you feel about being adopted? How was adoption treated in your family? Yeah,

Speaker 3  10:32  
adoption has always been something that was pretty normal in our household, you know, especially because me, my younger sister, we're both adopted. And we're both Chinese and my parents are both white. So it was never something that you could hide or cover up. You know, so instead of hearing birth stories, we grew up with photo books of like, Oh, here's photos of when we were in Beijing. And then we flew to like Guangdong, and that's where we met you. You know, like, I grew up with all those stories, and like family myth making, for lack of better terminology. So yeah, like we had scrapbooks because my mom was a scrapbooker. And then we also had a lot of books written by other adoptive parents, and they were never really exactly the same as ours. And you know, because international adoption, they're so different from country to country, but like, it still exposed us to a lot of adoption stories. And so honestly, like, I grew up feeling very comfortable being an adoptee, you know, and I'm really lucky for that, like, like, I have been in a really great situation, I have a great relationship with my parents, and I'm very comfortable talking about my adoption with them.

Dawn Davenport  11:42  
And they were it sounds like as well, Nathan, how was adoption treated? Are you the only adopted person in your family? Or do you have siblings who were also adopted? And how was adoption treated in your family?

Speaker 2  11:54  
Absolutely. So both my parents are white, and I'm half black, half white, but generally present black, so they couldn't really hide it for me. So I'm also the I'm the only child through my parents through my birth family, I have two younger half brothers and one older half sister, but we didn't grow up together ages, far apart stuff along those lines. So I consider myself as an only child growing up. And so my parents treat adoption incredibly, incredibly normally, because my birth family was roughly an hour down the road, they also wouldn't exclude them from my life, of course. And so truthfully, it wasn't until I was about seven that I realized that other people didn't have a second set of parents that other people didn't also have birth parents. I remember having that conversation with my mom, because my best friend looked exactly like his mom, like blue eyes, blonde hair, everything. And I just thought, wow, it's strange. They look similar, right? And my mom then had to have a conversation about how genetics work. So adoption was always treated with a lot of respect, there was always space in my life for my birth family, as well. And I give my parents a lot of credit for that, especially because as a kid, I'm sure there were challenges that I don't know about today, and definitely didn't know about back then. So how this made me feel about being adopted overall, I would say is I felt special. I felt prioritized in the sense, but more than anything else, I guess, I felt chosen in a way where my parents picked me in that case,

Dawn Davenport  13:25  
and did that put additional pressure on you? Because that's not a common narrative, perhaps a little less now than it used to be. But part of the issue is that if you're chosen, you could be unchosen, or that's one of the concerns are that it puts undue pressure on the child? Did you feel any of that?

Speaker 2  13:44  
I didn't feel any undue pressure in any capacity that I didn't put on myself. There were well, truthfully at this time, I'm 26. Now. And it's only recently that I've begun really seeing that my actions I take in life are mine alone, and that I don't really owe anything to anyone that like, I have a life that I love. I have parents who I love. And a lot of people have sacrificed for that. And it's only really recently, I began starting to think through, okay, what does this mean? If I don't, quote unquote, succeed or live up to any expectation? Does that reflect poorly on them? Is it not worth it? What I think really stood out to me a lot is that from all sides from my parents, has been the consistent narrative of You don't owe us anything. This is your life, and we want you to live it and as long as you're being true to yourself, that's all you need to be. And so I truly do appreciate that message.

Dawn Davenport  14:35  
Yeah, I can. I can say that. Okay, Jessica, for you. How did your parents treat adoption? Were you treated as the chosen one or How'd your parents treat adoption? And how did that influence how you feel about adoption?

Speaker 4  14:48  
Well, adoption was really woven into, quote, unquote, normalcy. You know, that we had books on the shelf. Ever since I was little I came off the plane and somebody handed me My parents had booked or it was a family member. So just a

Dawn Davenport  15:02  
stranger, hanging out the airport hanging up

Speaker 4  15:05  
waiting. But he handed them a book called Why was I adopted. And that became, you know, a normal reading for us woven into the many other books that we would read. And I think it was a really great way of showing how families can look differently, but still be a family. And so it created this kind of sense of, you know, it's not this completely, you know, unheard of situation to not look like your family. And, you know, my parents indulged me, they answered questions, when I have them, they were very open and honest with me, from a very young age to say, if you were ever interested in learning more, or maybe one day finding them, we're here to support you, we're here to give you the space that you need, if you want us there, if you want

Dawn Davenport  15:48  
to. So that gave you full permission that they weren't going to be challenged by that. Okay,

Speaker 4  15:52  
totally. I mean, you know, I think there has to be, and I applaud them for this, you know, as parents in the 80s, when the early 80s, who were adopting a child from a foreign country, I think there was an understanding that there is always going to still be a connection to biology into bio and to biological family, and to that interest of knowing where you came from and who you look like. And so, with that kind of being the undertone, I think they always made space for those questions. They always made space for that part of my life, they may not be able to answer all the questions for but offer support, even in not knowing how Uncharted those waters maybe one day, but I was very proud of being a Colombian person who was very proud of being somebody from somewhere else. And I think it made my story very interesting when I was able to just share it with people. And, you know, I had a lot of support from my parents. And I can't say that I felt chosen or even more special as an only child, I think there was just it felt like I was their kid. And I really appreciated that, again, that they indulged me and one of the differences that I presented that were not a reflection of who they were as people.

Dawn Davenport  17:04  
How did they treat race? Now we've talked about how they treated adoption, but how did they treat race and specifically, your race and your race being different from theirs?

Speaker 4  17:16  
We didn't really talk about race. It wasn't something that came up, I think, especially in childhood and early adolescence, I didn't think it was something that was necessarily focused on I was, you know, I was a young person who is just interested in being friends with my friends, and not really thinking too much too deeply into it. These are different times that we're in now. And I know kids are thinking about these things a lot earlier than I probably was. But, you know, of course, I would make reference to the fact that I have like, darker skin than my parents. And my dad would just be like, Oh, well, you know, he's like, he's Italian. So he didn't go, you know, in the summer look more like? It was those kinds of overarching very, like, you know, it doesn't make a difference how you look, it's more that we are a family. And I can say at some point, I've definitely wished that they had incorporated some more conversations about culture and race into our family. My parents are both gone now. But I can't imagine what having these conversations would have been like, and how we could have reflected back on my childhood a little bit more differently, and had those conversations have been had.

Dawn Davenport  18:21  
Nathan, what about you? How did your parents treat race in general and your race and specific.

Speaker 2  18:29  
So growing up in Portland, I believe at this time, Portland's grown more and more diverse, as the years have gone by, but growing up in the States, commonly known as one of the whitest cities in America. And so I believe it's over 70% white right now, there's consistently been less than a single digit African American population. And due to the history of the state, the African American population of Portland has been gathered generally into one rough area. And so race was interesting for me, because growing up in Portland, not living in said area, it was still a space where I felt welcomed, and where I felt accepted as an individual and as my own person, which is what I really appreciated about the city. But I believe that there were going to be aspects of race that my parents weren't going to be able to teach me. They gave me a phenomenal life, but they don't know what it means to be a black man in a major city, especially like a black man in a major city, which is predominantly a different race. And so race was always given the utmost respect. And given the most seriousness, it was never hidden from me about my race. What it means after Trayvon Martin was murdered, my mom had a long conversation with me about keeping my head down whenever like wear my sweatshirt out and stuff along those lines as well. Although, when it came to in growing up, I defined a lot of things myself, where that came from looking for mentors or turning to media and culture. err, which can be misleading a lot of the time and figuring out for myself what it means to be a black man, especially a black man in America. And I believe that my parents did a phenomenal job, especially showing me the importance of race in the world and significance of who I am. But at the same time, there were going to be some lessons that they weren't going to be able to teach. But thankfully, they understood that as well and helped me look for mentors and find people when I was growing up.

Dawn Davenport  20:26  
You said your birth mom lived relatively close in your birth dad did not is your birth mom, black or white.

Unknown Speaker  20:34  
My birth mother is white, my birth father is black.

Dawn Davenport  20:37  
And so your birth father was not so much a part of your growing up because he was living across the world.

Speaker 2  20:43  
So he wasn't in a situation to meet me until I was around eight years old. And then around that time, he met the love of his life, and moved to Australia. So we weren't able to have a lot of like physical time and connection together. But thankfully, to the advent of technology, we talk all the time now. And we are able to have that relationship, even if we only see each other in person maybe every couple years or so.

Dawn Davenport  21:08  
Gotcha. Okay, Rosie, let's talk about race and how that was handled in your family growing up. Yeah,

Speaker 3  21:14  
so exactly named Jessica might have had somewhat similar situations where we just like didn't talk about race, but it wasn't so much like my parents were avoiding it. It just didn't come up that often. You know, like, my parents grew up with white families, we lived in a pretty white area. And like, you don't need that many white people who are walking up how other white people and they're like, Hey, what's up, you're white. I'm white, like, we know everything else. So the same situation was with our family, we're like, people weren't coming up to us and being like, you're Asian, and your mom's white. And like, that's weird. Like, it was just like something people kind of like saw and then like, look the other way. And my parents were kind of like, okay, that happens. But like, they definitely emphasized the fact that it doesn't matter how you look like that. We're still a family. But I would say that, for me, race and culture kind of go side by side. And they're not the same thing. But I feel like when I bring up my race, I also have to bring up my culture. So I grew up in a moderately colorblind home, but my parents did try to introduce a lot of Chinese culture to me growing up, especially the adoption agencies in the early 2000s, were really like, really pushing for parents to like, send their kids to Chinese culture camps, and like, Chinese adoption, picnics, larger

Dawn Davenport  22:34  
chopsticks, and speak Chinese

Speaker 3  22:37  
and all these things. So my parents definitely opened up opportunities for me to do that. Like we connected with other adoptees in that area who weren't the ones I knew, you know, just like local organizations. They introduced me to Chinese, they introduced me to different culture classes, but because it wasn't super organic, it like never really stuck with me. You know, like, if people around me are speaking Chinese, and it kind of felt weird to me to like, be speaking Chinese. So yeah,

Dawn Davenport  23:06  
gotcha. Jessica, you mentioned that your family, I think you said your family were had a fairly colorblind approach. Would you recommend that colorblind approach for other parents now? Or do you feel like taking a colorblind approach when you're adopting a child of a different race, especially in the United States, is colored by not the best approach?

Speaker 4  23:27  
No, absolutely not. And I wouldn't say that my family was necessarily colorable. They think that it was just, it was recognized, it just wasn't talked about it. As you know, there was an understanding that I was somebody who came from a different part of the world and had a different birth, race and culture and language. But I don't think that they had necessarily Well, the tools or the wherewithal to understand that bringing that identity back to me would be important work, we're ready to get into our family. And I absolutely think that it's important for families to be aware of the importance of identity, especially when you have people who are adopting from very culturally rich countries. You know, my advice to parents that I give all the time, people who are adopting is to incorporate that identity, that culture, into your family before you bring your child so that way, they grow up knowing that you have taken off part of their identity, as much as they are incorporating your identity into who they are. I think it helps to be a much more global grounding experience for everyone. There's a connectedness that happens when there's an understanding that one day can come where they have questions and why not have some of those answers and say, Hey, here's some answers. Here's what I can show you. Let's go find the rest together. You know, and I think laying that foundation and that groundwork of again, that understanding and that appreciation, and really helps for that to create stronger fanbase and stronger bonds and a stronger connection from the child to the parents. Mm hmm.

Dawn Davenport  25:02  
Yes, I see that. I want to tell you about creating a family's interactive training support curriculum for foster adoptive and kinship families. If you are running a support group, I cannot think of a better resource. If you are running trainings for foster adoptive or kinship families, I cannot think of a better resource. It's a video based curriculum. But there is lots of participation. There's lots of pauses for discussion, because that's really where people learn. So you could check it out by going to our website, creating a family.or, hovering over the word training, and then clicking on support group curriculum. Okay, Nathan, I want to shift now to talking about racial identity. Was it a struggle for you to identify as a black man when you became a man, let's start actually by talking about the college experience, because I do think that's commonly not a challenge, it's potentially a challenge, but it's certainly an area of growth. For many transracial adoptees, we always say that no matter where you live, you run in the same circle. So after a very short time, you as a transracial adoptive person, you no longer stand out, we talk about conspicuous families, and you do when you go outside, somewhere new. But when you're running in your same circles, going to the same grocery store, going to the library, same school, whatever, you become old news, and so you're not, you're under the umbrella of your parents identity. And one of the first times not the only time but for many people often the first time is when they go to college. So let's start with that. So Nathan, when you went to college, did you struggle with knowing where you fit in? Did you fit in with the black kids? Did you fit in with the white kid? So do you fit in with the biracial kids? Was that a struggle for you at all?

Speaker 2  26:54  
What I would say more so it was it's honestly, it was closer to a combination of my whole experience. Coming into college college was the first time where I had a physical separation from Portland, overall. And I remember coming to Los Angeles, which is one of the most diverse places in the country, and just literally walking down the street be like, Oh, okay, this is what diversity looks like. This is what it's like when you have many different people from many different backgrounds living together. And all those cultures are blending together. But so I believe that I was in a particularly unique situation when it came to learning about my identity itself. I referenced Trayvon Martin being killed earlier that happened when I was 15, or 16 years

Dawn Davenport  27:32  
old. That's the same age as Trayvon when he was killed. Yeah,

Speaker 2  27:34  
exactly. Yeah. And so growing up in that space, especially in terms of white black relationship in America, I didn't have the opportunity to wait until college until I got to assess what it meant to be a black man. A lot of that was put on me very early, and especially growing up in an environment that had not a lot of diversity in it. Then I often found myself being the quote, unquote, like speaker, for my race in certain situations. And so I think what was curious about that is that as I'm growing up, like, I grew from, like a foot from like, 13 to 14, I grew a foot, suddenly, I'm no longer like, Okay, I'm a kid, it's, this is a man, this is a person who presents as a man. And now I'm in high school. And now I'm a black man in America, learning what that means as I go forward. And so I think a lot of what was formed for me in high school was centered around my identity in terms of learning when to speak, when am I talking for myself? When isn't my responsibility to speak up? And so when I got to college, I think having that disconnect, because, as you said, Don't people don't have the cultural context of, or the situation or city context of, Oh, I know your parents. So I have this. And so I was now a black man in Los Angeles. And I would say that introduced new struggles into my experience, which was okay, this is a much larger black community in Los Angeles than there is in Portland, both in terms of percentages and numbers. What does this mean now, now, where do I fit? And so I wouldn't say it was a reassessment of my identity, per se, what I would say is a reassessment of my position, and the responsibility that came with being myself. So I believe that as I've grown and developed and stepped further into my identity, there's a balance there, which is between what it means to be a black man in America, but also what does it mean to be nice and fast? And parts of that come down to a creative writing master's student right now? Is that a black thing to do? That's not my decision. That's not anyone else's decision. It's what I'm doing. And I'm black. But then, on the other hand, after George Floyd was murdered, people were reaching out to me to see if I was okay. And at that point, I was a black man and also a fraud. And in that case for them, and being there and being in community, and I remember going to a protest in West Hollywood, I think. And I walked into a room and there's another black man there who had met like a couple times before, but we saw each other in those meters like connection. And that was something that's deeper than just like, oh, this is my name. This is what I look like, if this is more so about my experience. And so I think a large part, especially after I went to college, was really figuring out the divide between what it means to be a member of a community versus what it means to be myself in any situation.

Dawn Davenport  30:32  
Interesting. Okay, that makes sense. When you move to Los Angeles, did you feel automatic acceptance and a part of the black community? Are did you face questions of why does he talk white? Or he doesn't seem like the rest of us? Or Did you face any of that?

Speaker 2  30:51  
Truthfully, I didn't really when it came down to it, I think maybe it's because I came in from a university perspective. And then I also didn't have a car in LA. So I didn't really, you know, go very many places,

Dawn Davenport  31:00  
primarily on campus is what you see

Speaker 2  31:03  
on campus, primarily in the area, like West Side, Los Angeles, going to the beach and stuff like that, too. And I think the university provides such an interesting experience and aspect to because what you're going to find is there's not going to be a monolith of one community. That's only Hey, if you're like this, this is the only way to be. I think that was one of my larger fears coming in there. If I didn't speak a certain way, or know certain things, then it wasn't going to be accepted as myself. But really, when it came down to it, I found it was much further from the truth. Oh, that's reassuring that it really was right. In that setting. I wasn't even like in times where I've been challenged for like standing out for any particular reason. It's not because you're black and you're standing out. It's because you're doing something differently.

Dawn Davenport  31:47  
Yeah. The I'm blanking on his name, the Central Park incident that happened, I believe, in 2020, where the guy was walking in Central Park, and he was a birdwatcher, and he was black. And the white woman called the police and said he was threatening or when he was asking her to put her dog on a leash, and a place that dogs were required to be on the leash. He has just written a book. And it's fascinating. He talks a lot about the fact that it as a bird watcher, you know, is bird watching a black thing to do and how it ultimately had to think that I don't care. It's it's, it's my thing to do. I'm interested in it. I want to do it. Anyway. It's a great book. Rosie, let's talk about college for you and your racial identity formation, and how college played and then after college?

Speaker 3  32:33  
Yeah. So like I said, I didn't grow up with a lot of conversation about race in my home. And we definitely in middle school and high school, we had plenty of conversations where we were all poking fun at each other's race. But nobody was ever taking anybody's race seriously and having like those good conversations. So I actually I went to a predominantly white Christian College in Pennsylvania, the racial divide is 18% students of color. And when I walked on that campus, I was like, Oh, my gosh, this is the world. Like, it is so diverse here. It's crazy. I called my mom and I was like, where am I? I don't know. And then by the time I was a senior, I was like, Yo, I got to see more parts of the world.

Dawn Davenport  33:20  
This is diverse, I clearly need some

Speaker 3  33:23  
Glee, honestly. But yeah, like, I definitely had that color shock when I went to onto campus. And so for me, understanding my racial identity was moderately hard. Because there wasn't a lot of people I knew who were talking about Asian American identity at that time. So by the time I went to college, in 2018, a lot of my knowledge of race was based on the Black Lives Matter movement, which on one hand, is like, good, and that they're doing good work on their people of color, and I'm a person of color, but their lived experience is so different from mine, that like, it definitely feels like I started hopping different people's identities and like trying to fit them on like a hat, and then realized, Oh, this isn't the right one. And so then I would switch hats, you know, so I heard back from like, trying to understand the Asian American identity from like, a black perspective. And obviously, I'm not black, so that didn't work, the biracial experience, which kind of fit but also I'm not biracial, so it kind of didn't. Like, when I was going to college, there were a lot of military kids and missionary kids, and I was like, Oh, I kind of fit the trans, cultural, intercultural sort of thing. And then I was like, Oh, I don't, I don't know. So it was definitely a very odd time period for anybody who knew me in college, like bless their soul, if they're still friends with me, because I was going through some major identity shifts, but I ended up being an English major in college creative writing. And so I did a lot of free writing. And then we were doing a lot of literary analysis and focusing a lot on the intersect National Parks about gender and race, and other things like that. And that's where I really got to dive into who I am, and kind of find other people who were my race and going through my experience. And unlike a lot of other people who I think know a lot of people, which I do now, at first, when I was really working through my racial identity, I found a lot of my role models and my mirrors and literary figures and authors and books. So

Dawn Davenport  35:27  
interesting. I hope to come back and talk about mentors. Jessica, how about you? When was your first realization? You've already mentioned? It was when you went to college? Did you struggle with where you fit in with your race? And did that happen in college? Absolutely.

Speaker 4  35:45  
I went to a very when when I was in school, because I went to preschool with the kids, I graduated high school, it was a small school district within a larger area. But I didn't have much exposure, socially acceptable I can to other kids. So when I got to college, and it was this melting pot, and going to school in New York City, and it was, you know, this people from all around the world and trying to figure out where you would fit in, and who you could identify with and who would accept you. And also in that same moment, understanding that it wasn't necessarily a new concept, because I was in college. But you know, as you are moving through adolescence and identity formation in those in those years, between 12 and 17, right before emerging adulthood, you start to realize that the world is going to identify you in ways that make them feel comfortable. And so you have to then kind of incorporate that into how you identify yourself, but how you will approach people for the first time, you know, what are they kind of expecting to think but especially for those of us who are translationally, adopted, who may not have names that match how we look? Sometimes there's this sense of I have to explain myself to this person, because they're going to be looking at me like, oh, Siri, Siri, when is that? Trying to like they're trying to put you into a foot. So imagine doing that while you're you know, having your first experiences away from home, in higher education, trying to make a name for yourself within the work that you're doing in school, and also meeting new people and trying to have as much of a fulfilling college experience as possible. But having to always kind of appease people and make the situation more comfortable by incorporating this assumption that they may be making a balance sheet, as well as trying to present yourself as to who you are and who you're becoming. It's a lot of work.

Dawn Davenport  37:41  
Yeah, it's a lot to put on anyone right? To say nothing about 1819 20 year old. Now, you said something a minute ago about one of the things you had to figure out was who would accept you? What did you mean by that?

Speaker 4  37:53  
I mean, just because I may find a group of people who look like me doesn't mean that I'm accepted instead. And I experienced that. And what it really, again, drove me to do was to not just find my way of putting my feet in the ground and saying, You know what, I do belong here. It was me more saying, I do have work to do. I don't know what these people know about the things that they want you to know about culture. Where's your accent? Where's your language? Why can't you speak Spanish? Why don't you know about Colombian culture, it just inspired me to realize that the world is bigger than I had experienced it. And so I wanted to feel like I could sit in that room. And it didn't just come with saying I was born in this country. I was born in Colombia, it can be in this room. You know, when I used to speak on panels at that time, I would say sometimes it felt like it was false advertising. And people would look at me and assume something. And I may not be able to have all this intellectual relived knowledge and experience to back it up. And I didn't want to have that experience. I wanted to make sure that, you know, I was learning that the expectation from other people is going to be on me from an early age to represent how I look, then I wanted to be able to make sure that I was doing the work for myself to know what this represents out. And it was, again, not for anyone other than me, but also just understanding that there would always be a public perception of who I was. And I would have to account for that, in my own way of identifying myself as that continues to change.

Dawn Davenport  39:30  
So what Jessica, what tools do you wish their parents had? Or was your parents even able to have given you the tools? What tools would have been helpful? And maybe another way of asking that is what tools have you developed on your own?

Speaker 4  39:42  
You know, I think what my parents gave me laying that foundation of openness and willingness to talk and to be there and to say, what we don't know. We're happy to learn with you and try to teach you and it gave me this experience of learning about my culture, jumping into college. classes kind of redirecting the major to learn about Latin American Studies and take all of these courses and bring it home to them. And they were open, and they were willing, and they were listening, and that openness, while you're trying to figure out who you are, and having all of these other simultaneous experiences, being able to come home and look at my parents and have them understand that I was becoming somebody else in front of them, but with them was such a welcoming and calming feeling, they embraced the new friends that I would bring home, they would embrace, especially all the new food I was bringing home to them, they really were a part of this journey for me. And I think openness was the real key. I think openness is always the key, because not only were they teaching me about their own openness, but they were teaching me about how to be open for other people. And had I have not had that experience. I don't know if I would have even taken on the emotional and mental and spiritual lifts, trying to connect with my culture. If they hadn't laid that groundwork for me,

Dawn Davenport  41:03  
what I hear you say is they weren't threatened, by the way that you were growing, some parents would say, Oh, she's growing away from right. But they didn't do that. They said, She's growing, she's growing into the person that she's meant to be. And they sounds like embrace that new person that you are becoming. But I think that's also

Speaker 4  41:22  
the misconception. I think that when people are growing into themselves adopted or not, it's not growing away. It's about the foundation that you made out of parents that, you know, my parents never treated me like I was the adoptive child, I was their kid. So because I never felt a difference. I never felt this feeling to have to prove them closer or further away, if anything, and they knew that they were right there within there. My mom was my mom, my dad is my dad, you know. And, you know, I don't think that they ever had a real worry that I was going to grow in a different direction and not be mitten. Hmm.

Dawn Davenport  41:56  
I want to circle back to mentors. I loved what Rosie said about finding mentors in literary characters that is such a creative when faced with not having a lot of mentors of your race, what a creative way of finding them. Nathan, you said that you went out of your way to find mentors, I assume same race mentors? How did you find them? Not just in high school, but just throughout life? Well,

Speaker 2  42:24  
I think the most important thing for me was recognizing who I was first, and then looking for people in terms of at least around my identity, in terms of looking for people who are going to be able to speak to those things. So I love playing basketball, I still do. And so when I got to high school, I joined the basketball team. And there were two older black guys on the team. And so I made a Cognizant effort to really just be around them. I didn't specifically ask them what what does this mean? Or like, Well, how do I do that?

Dawn Davenport  42:55  
Will you be my mentor?

Speaker 2  42:58  
Yeah, it's just about being in the same space as someone with the same identity as me, who also had a shared experience. And so I think what that really showed me is that in any space that I'm going into, I can be myself. But then from there, if someone's coming in, I'm going to be able to be there for them in that space. One of the times that stands out to me the most was when I joined my fraternity in college, where I joined a social fraternity people from every race were in the fraternity itself. And there was an older black guy in the fraternity as well. And he took me aside during the recruitment process and just said, Look, even if you don't join us, there are going to be questions you have about being in a fraternity in this college setting, especially like looking as we do. So if you have any questions, this would be a fantastic time. And so there have been times where people have like, taken me up, pulled me aside, and I've done that I did the same thing for all my years of college as well, whether or not a person joined our chapter, it was just during the recruitment process, there's going to be questions that you have, that I'm guessing other people here aren't gonna be able to answer. So this is a time for that. And so I've had like a fantastic opportunity. People give me those chances. The same thing with professors as well, professors, teachers, really, when I find a person who looked like me, but who also had a common interest. It was that that I knew could bring us together. Because in that space, it's not just also black, this is going to be fantastic. It was I know we're in this space together, centered around something that we both like and enjoy. Because in that case, it speaks to them as an individual, not just me, seeing another person of color and believing immediately they're going to be the perfect person for me.

Dawn Davenport  44:37  
In some ways that's limiting is just because of the color of your skin, we will automatically have something in common we will automatically want to be together. That's stereotyping of another store.

Speaker 2  44:47  
in some capacity in situations it works like that. Where I mean, I was at a conference a couple of weeks ago and didn't really know a lot of people and then I saw another black guy and was like, this will work and so just wandered over because we had something in mind moments, but then also at the same time, that's not how every situation is going to be. And so in some cases, it's not safety, per se, but comfort in the sense of okay, here's another person who shares this with me, here's another person who, even if we're incredibly different, has gone through the same or a similar experience in being in this space. But also at the same time, when I'm going to space for a longer period of time having someone there with that specialized experience that I was able to connect with that was incredibly beneficial.

Dawn Davenport  45:28  
Hmm. I hope you are enjoying this conversation as much as I am. I'm learning a lot as a transracial adoptive parent. So if you appreciate this content, you'll be happy to hear about 12 free courses we're offering at Bitly slash JBf. Support the I T dot L y slash JBS support. Jockey being Family Foundation are sponsoring this library of courses. So check it out today. Okay, I want to ask y'all each a question. That's a little awkward. But were you ever and again, this is probably going to be post high school? Maybe not? Were you ever embarrassed if your parents showed up in some type of gathering where you weren't already known? Because it meant that you would have to either acknowledge that you weren't 100% of the false advertising, as Jessica said, that your parents would bring that to the fore? Or that you would have to go through explaining, you know, who are those people while they're my parents and have to go through it? Was that ever embarrassing for you, Rosie?

Speaker 3  46:32  
Well, it's so interesting, because yes, the answer is definitely yes.

Dawn Davenport  46:36  
Thank you for being honest. When I was younger,

Speaker 3  46:39  
I had a mom who was pretty involved in my school, I went to public school, but like, my mom was like, volunteering and stuff like that. But like you said, everybody knew my family. So it wasn't like, oh, okay, this is weird. Like, everybody was just like, okay, that's her mom, whatever. But then, like you said, when I went to college, you know, you get the start over as a new person with a new identity. And you kind of just get to like, create yourself how you want yourself to be as an adult. And I had like, never experienced that I never even had a second thought about like doubting what my parents looked like and what I looked like. And then the first time I met my parents at college, they came to visit, and we were walking around Target, and we bumped into some friends. And I wasn't necessarily embarrassed, but I was like, Oh, my God, these are my parents. And they gave me this look, thing was like, oh, and I was like, why are they looking at me? Why are they looking at me? This is weird. And then even more. So I will said, I've made this joke. We haven't done it per se. But my dad is a tall, white man. And I am a young Asian woman. And I always say I couldn't take him to the bar with me, I would love to, because he would buy my drinks. But I can't take him to the bar with me. Because it's going to be a weird situation where everybody's like, backs the young Asian guy with an all white guy. He's not that old. But you know, it's like situations like that, where I actually do have to be kind of cognizant about it. And it's like super humorous from like an adoption daughter, Father lens, but also like, super, super awkward and not a situation that either of us want to put ourselves in.

Dawn Davenport  48:16  
Yeah, and I know adopted dads are very aware of that. Jessica, boy about you. Were you ever wishing you didn't have the explanation that had to come with? Or that you felt that challenged or knew your fledgeling new identity you were trying to create? Yeah,

Speaker 4  48:34  
he was let me know. Like I said, I grew up in such a small community of people that like my whole life, I had my parents and people knew who we were as a family. And I didn't get to have my shop with my parents after my early 20s. So I didn't have those experiences, even in meetings with people, people that when they were meeting you I was mentioning before, knew I was adopted. So it wasn't it there was no like, I felt like I had to explain myself to people, people already kind of knew that part of me and knew

Dawn Davenport  49:09  
about that. You didn't have the opportunity in a new place to because you're right. When you're where you're growing up, you would not

Speaker 4  49:15  
right. And even when I got to college, again, no, those people who are coming into my life at that time is the reflection of the people that I had found. But again, who had known that that was my backstory. So they weren't surprised when they see these two white people in my house or like introducing themselves as my parents.

Dawn Davenport  49:31  
Yeah, are showing up. Nathan, what about you?

Speaker 2  49:34  
Honestly, the same is Jessica Not really. I mean, my white parents pick to adopt a black child. So that's their own fault if they refer themselves in that situation. But also I honestly just trusted by parents that in any situation they were going to be in. They 100% have thought this through as well. And I'm very open about being adopted. It's something that I just kind of, if you've known me for about for 10 minutes, you'll probably hear me alluded to it in some capacity. Just not even though it's like a prep thing just was kinda like, this is my thing, in like the situations where I am, but if people have questions they can ask. But I think the human experience, especially through the advent of the Internet, and being able to see like all the different facets of human life around the world, I think that when I say these are my parents, if people have follow up questions, they can ask them, but otherwise, I think people just gonna go, okay, and then discard this roll with it.

Dawn Davenport  50:30  
Yeah, that may be a way that our society is changing, and a good way more accepting more options, I want to come back to something that Jessica talked about at the beginning, and what she has made her life work as well. And that is finding community amongst other adoptees and specifically, probably transracial adoptees, Jessica, when you were first talking, I picked up if that was something that was very important for your development, then now that is, what you do is create space for adopted people. So let's talk a little about, we've talked about racial identity, but Nathan just alluded to this as well, that is one identity, but the other identity is identity of an adopted person. And then a sub identity to that, I guess, would be that of a translationally. adopted person. Where does that identity fit and overall identity formation? Now start with you, Jessica.

Speaker 4  51:25  
Yeah, I mean, finding community is a powerful thing, regardless of where you're finding that community, or in what you're looking for that community. And for people who are adopted, you know, we have a lot of experiences and thoughts and feelings and moments in life that we may go through on our own. You know, as much as we could have had, like I had parents who created a very open space, there are still things that I held back from them, because I wanted to protect them just as much as parents want to protect us. And so when I had the opportunity to become one of the founding mentors in our mentorship program, at the organization that I work, it was a very powerful idea to be able to give back and kind of heal younger versions of myself, by being that example for other people by giving that space creating those spaces to have difficult conversations, find that commonality in younger people who are looking to connect with one another and who are looking to have that feeling of aloneness be a little bit less. And I think that as a trans racially adopted person, finding other translationally adopted people has been huge for me. But what I also realized in talking to as many adoptees as I have, is that we could be from anywhere. But we all share the same, this one like very deeply rooted experience. And it kind of levels the playing field in so many ways. So the trans racial piece of it is important, but because there's a lot of other layers, just like you said, there's a lot of other things to kind of consider. But at the same time, it doesn't make me feel that much more different from a domestically adopted person who may not have some of the challenges of being disconnected from birth country or, or culture or language.

Dawn Davenport  53:19  
commonality being the true, are adopted is strong.

Speaker 4  53:24  
And it's impactful. I mean, it's to be in a space where we're able to have conversations and hear from one another and just listen, it's, you know, it is a very big and life changing experience that I've had to deal with for 20 years. And continue to and it's been Yeah, it's been really wonderful.

Dawn Davenport  53:44  
All right, now we're going to do a round robin of tips because most of the audience who will be listening for this is going to be parents so they would like to hear a tips it What would you tell parents who are either considering transracial adoption, or in the midst of already raising their transracial adoptive child? Rosie, we'll start with you.

Speaker 3  54:04  
Yeah, so step one, which if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably already doing is to listen to adoptees. So listen to their stories and their experiences and their thoughts, even if you don't agree, just so you know, they exist. And you know how you can work through how to respond to those personally, because I don't think you want your first experience coming up with like a really hard topic. You don't want your first time you ever hear about it to be with your kid when they're asking you about it? Yeah, so yeah, that would be my first thing. But more importantly, or I guess not more importantly, but for me like something that's more comes to my forefront is look into the history of adoption in your home country and the country you've adopted from ethics international as well as the history of your child to racial and ethnic group in the country that you live in. Because there are so many discrepancies just honestly in place politics about different people groups and stuff like that and like so many These problems maybe couldn't be solved, but at least could be understood better if everybody just knew their history. So yeah, that's it, I would say about that.

Dawn Davenport  55:08  
All right, Nathan, you're up tips for parents,

Speaker 2  55:12  
I think the biggest ones that come to mind are first and foremost, if you're choosing to adopt trans racially, that is a larger choice than choosing to adopt. Because in choosing to adopt translationally, what that means is that you are going to introduce many different cultural experiences that you may not have had. And so keeping that in mind, and coming at it from that perspective, not oh, I want to adopt a kid, like really, overall, it can't be focused on you, it has to be focused on the child and their well being. And if you may not be the best to give them that well being, that's not a reflection of you as an individual. That doesn't mean you're not going to be a fantastic parents someday. It's just, I'm bad at math, I'm not an engineer, a leads to B. And so like if you're not equipped. And if you don't believe that you're ready for this challenge, then I would recommend looking at what you are ready for, because this is someone's life. And it's really important. And there's going to be so many fantastic people out there who your love can go to. But if you don't feel fully equipped to do this, it's not a bad thing to recognize that. How would also follow up with that is by saying, educate yourself. But also, it's completely fine to say I don't know, let's figure it out. There's going to be so many wonderful, fantastic people out there. Again, I'm not an engineer, if I need help with engineering, I call an engineer, I'm not gonna be able to do everything. But it goes back to that, like proverb, it takes a village to raise a child, and especially in this case, it takes a village, because some people are going to have more information, some people are gonna have a lot more information. But also at the same time, you bring things to the table that only you can bring. And those are absolutely fantastic and lean into those. But your child's going to be on an adventure, they're going to have questions and making sure that from the beginning, they know who they are, they know their different aspects and you know that them being different from you does not make them any less loved any less valued as an individual, and also look into very specific like skin and haircare like skin and haircare essential, I did not understand the kinds of things that my skin and hair needed in comparison to my parents. And then really it was after college when I started taking care of myself properly. And the quality of life that has emerged from me doing proper skin care has been off the charts. And so don't force a mentor. Always be there to answer questions or say you don't know. And now you're ready for the challenge. It is a challenge but more than anything else, it's worth it.

Dawn Davenport  58:06  
Excellent. Okay, Jessica, you get the last word tips for parents.

Speaker 4  58:11  
I echo what my fellow adoptees have said. But I will also say You know, it's very important to find community, find your community find other adoptive parents understand the importance of incorporating identity and culture into your family. Even lean into your own culture and your own experiences. It will make your family richer. And, you know adoptees adoptive people are not the world. We are all different. We have different experiences and different stories and we have different interests in our own connection to our adoption story. And the ebbs and flows are there. They're real. And you know, creating that foundation of openness and willingness, I think makes a very big difference in helping your child become who they're going to become. While you're also becoming the parents who are going to continue to support them doesn't have these these years of education don't just exist when your kids are in school. There's a lifelong journey of education, as you know what it's like to be a parent and what it means to be a parent of a transformational leader or that just an adopted child. So I encourage everyone to find their community find strength in numbers, and just know that there's also sometimes spaces that they may not be able to be in to best care for their kids, by finding community through their children. So there's a lot of wonderful opportunities out there for families and encourage everyone to look into those for themselves.

Dawn Davenport  59:39  
Thank you so much, Jessica Lucero, Rosie Jones and Nathan phallus for being with us today. To share your wisdom with adoptive parents we truly appreciate creating a family is a nonprofit. We are dependent upon the support of organizations who believe in our mission and believe in putting their money behind their actual Leave one such organization is children's house International. They are a hay accredited international adoption agency. Currently placing children from 14 countries with families throughout the US. children's house also provides consulting for international surrogacy. So check it out at children's house international

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