Episode 15 - Narcissists, Gaslighting and Red Flags

Amy's an investigative journalist and divorce coach who penned a piece on The Tinder Swindler for NBC News based on the same documentary episode fifteen Narcissists, gas Lighting, and Red Flags. This week is a bit of a departure for us. While the story we're highlighting doesn't end in a murder, there are many similar themes that run through the cases usually cover. We're exploring the story behind Netflix's hot documentary The Tinder Swindler. It's a story of love gone very wrong.

For those who have not seen the doc here's a brief synopsis taken from Amy's article. The Tinder Swindler highlights exactly how the hopeful quest for finding love online can turn into a treacherous game The documentary tells the story of alleged international con man Simon Hayute a k a. Simon Levayev and the countless woman who say you ripped them off. With the help of journalists, his alleged victims

were able to track him down and alert the authorities. Haut, who has never been charged in connection with Netflix's allegations, might just have made off with millions of stolen dollars. That being said, he fortunately has been convicted of defrauding other victims. Here's Stephanie. We're so happy to have you here because we talked about this quite a bit and it's really kind of where the conceit for crazy and love comes from, trying to look back and gleaming in retrospect.

What can the rest of us take from a story that ends so tragic. You know, these are extreme cases, but this stuff affects everyone every day. And you know, when we talk about online dating, listen, I know many couples who have met online and have had incredibly successful relationships. So in lots of ways, it's the only way people are dating right now and meaning people. So we're not bashing on that by any means. However, you know that

The Tinder Swindler hits such a note culturally. Obviously, it's trending as number one on Netflix right now. Why do you think everybody is so interested in the Tinder Swindler and how did you get started with it? I think it's hitting a cultural nerve because I think a lot of women like me can empathize with these women because we've been through this in some form before. Well, I'm a journalist and I help women take their power back

during and after a divorce or a toxic relationship. We have a record number of people dating online of Internet users are dating online, so there is that built in interest, right, people have skin in the game. And you know, finally, I think this brings up a larger cultural debate that transcends online dating and overlaps with domestic abuse as well, and I know that's something you cover a lot on

this podcast. This These may seem to be disparate topics, but they're not in reading your article and watching the documentary as well. I thought the statistic that you shared in your article was staggering. Survey that said most people who are online daters, you know, they maybe can create some falsehoods and when really asked about it, those falsehoods and fluted name location appearance like there's literally nothing left,

what else could you possibly be looking for? But the most shocking thing I think is that more than half of respondents, fifty seven percent, admitted that they lied on there. And here's the thing. I don't mean to demonize men. We know that women lie out there too, but these stats show that sixty seven percent of that group that lie, we're married men. So they're on a dating site as married people and lying about it is like tier one terrible.

Sometimes outsiders say why didn't she leave? You know, when it takes the average victims seven times to leave their viewser Right, there are emotions fear, mainly financial considerations. Who is to blame the liar, the perpetrator, and the alleged criminal period, Right, So I reject all the victim shaming in these situations. I think it's a cop out. Mean, let's be better humans and stop the abusers and manipulators

and hold them accountable. Well that's the double edged sword because on the one hand, if you're going online to find love, you know, the number one goal would be that you're vulnerable and authentic and you're putting yourself out there and you're stretching your own boundaries and maybe this is outside your comfort zone. But in the spirit of finding love, you're going to go for it. That's a good thing. However, that also could make you the perfect

target for someone who is up to bad behavior. Is that accurate? Absolutely, that is definitely the case. You know, first of all, it's biological to some degree. You know, a Harvard professor said, love turns on that neurotransmitter dope amine, which is known to stimulate the brain's pleasure centers. Right then there's a drop in serotonin. You have these crazy kind of urgent infatuation feelings. And then during the first love year, serotonin gradually goes down and it's more of

this like moderate mature as it's called. And then also, yes, we're being gas lit simply by the fact that we're also seeing in all of these Disney movies that you know, love is something to conquer and to fight for, and somebody has to fight for you when you were going to get swept away. And first off, while the fighting it shouldn't be this saving journey. That's exactly right, because if you think about it, I mean, think about Cinderella,

all right, we all read that, watched the movie. You know, the prince rescues her against the odds. The same with Snow White and Sleeping Beauty. And some people have gone so far as to say Disney ruined our love lives. Right. Um, not bashing Walt Disney here, but it was a Harvard professor, Robert Epstein, who actually wrote an article about this, saying, you know, these glamorizing fairy tales, you know, lead to

unrealistic expectations. And um, we think to ourselves when we get into a relationship that has some of those characteristics, and you know, it's easy for someone on the outside to say, well that so dramatic. You should have known. Well, you think to yourself, well, if this is the one, this is how it's supposed to be, right, So the stakes are very high, the stakes are too high almost Well,

I think it's several factors. One is the biology of it, right, that takes over and that dopamine high and kind of can cloud your your judgment. Right. Two or these cultural things where we're told this is how it's supposed to be, you know, and you feel like you're starring in your own fairy tale, and if you've had a trail of bad relationships, you kind of feel like the universe owes that to you, like, Oh, it's finally happening to me.

They told me to wait, and I waited, right, So here he is or she is right, So I think I think it's that. And then also the third part is that these predators and manipulators are so good at what they do. You know, if you could be the most highly educated, I mean, I'm a former investigative reporter, I have an Ivy League degree from Columbia Journalism School.

I've uncovered crime, scams, corruption, you know, I think I'm somewhat with it, right, and I have fallen for some of these people, right, So I really like to bust that myth that it's someone down now who gets themselves in a dangerous situation, which you talk about a lot on your podcast. It all starts very magical, you know, in some scenarios. You know you had mentioned gaslighting. We talked about that word a lot, and it has been coming up quite a bit even on the podcast. What

is the actual definition of gas lighting? It's when someone is telling you something's not true and you know that it is. Um It's based on a movie called Gaslight where the husband was tormenting his wife and telling her that these actual gas lights in their home, we're not flickering, and she said, they're flickering. They are and he said, oh no, they're not. Oh no they're not, and he was out too. You know, make her insane, And that's

what this does. And that's one of my top five you know, red flags to look out for when dating, you know, when you looking for these narcissistic types who are predatory. And before we even get into that list, can you give us your definition of and it doesn't have to be by the book, but just you know, we also hear the word narcissism a lot. It gets used a lot, I'm sure out of context sometimes, but

it's a real thing, which really does make a narcissist. Well, first of all, I have to say, of course, I am not diagnosing anyone, but you know, I've certainly been with people who exhibit those traits and had counselors tell me they believed that this person was a narcissist or a sociopath. And um, basically one of the defining characteristics is a lack of empathy. You know, and and that is a red flag as well, that this person you

know really doesn't care about other people. They're really out for themselves, and you can you know, really be a detective and look for that. Um. There are many other characteristics of it, but they basically see the world as a game and a chess game. All of the behavior, the crazy, the roller poster ride of the relationship all makes sense when you realize they were doing what was best for them all along and pretending that they cared

for you and we're looking out for you. So they're presenting themselves one way really to meet all of your expectations from the jump. That could be male or female, right, it often gets thrown around for men, but women are just as capable of being narcissists, right, absolutely, absolutely, And what you are talking about is the number one red flag, which is love bombing, you know, and that goes hand

in hand with these romantic fairy tales we're talking about. Right, when someone comes on fast and strong, and you know, it seems like it's out of a movie, and uh, you know, they're whining and dining you, they're buying you things, they're the perfect person. You know, it's hard to decipher in the beginning. I have to say, though, you know, you could have a good person who does that and then one who doesn't. And so the biggest thing really is to let it play out. Don't jump right into it.

You can appreciate it, but you know, kind of keep a healthy distance, and time will will show. These types cannot wear the mask forever. Look at the alleged you know Tinder Swindler, right when when his back was against the wall, he went from being you know, prince charming to you know, really nasty. I love you has happened very quickly. And again all of those things are lovely.

But in the same article they said that you know, no man or woman will really not love you deeply if in fact you're their first love and you meet them on a whim, and it's meant to be. If you sort of slow the brakes and give it some time, your true love is not gonna not like you because you're playing a little harder to get. In fact, that's healthy.

But they can show their true colors. Yes, with the weight staff people who they cannot benefit from, and they don't have an inherent interest in impressing or love bombing either. So when when they act a certain way with them, it is a telltale sign of who they really are. And often people say at the end of the relationship, that's who they really are, because when the mask comes off you challenge them or you are leaving, they might beg and try to love bombing and and we're going

to take a quick break. We'll be back in just a moment. So a narcissist versus a sociopath, what are the key differences there? Because they often get lumped together. There's a spectrum for narcissism, right, experts say, we're all narcissistic to some degree. Right, it's when it gets into those dangerous levels that it becomes what clinicians can diagnose as mp D or narcissistic personality disorder. Right. A sociopath is someone who has antisocial characteristics in addition to like

the narcissistic characteristics. Sometimes, you know, a narcissist is just someone who is kind of into self aggrandizement, you know, material things, being the loud life of the party per person, and and doesn't have more of the antisocial sociopathic trades. Right, So it's always on a spectrum. They will test you

in a way. At the beginning of a relationship, it's kind of like a trial balloon, like they might do something or push one of your boundaries, and once they see that you are malleable in that way, those tests and those boundaries will keep getting pushed and pushed and pushed, like the you know, alleged victims of the Tinder swindler. Right. You know it's easy for someone to say, well, I would never give that money. But you know, they started with a little something, and then it grew, and then

it grew, and then it grew. And we're taught that a good partner is supportive understanding what if this was happening to me, wouldn't I want him to help me? Right? And that's all going through their minds, which I think is understandable. You know what it is all about power, right, whether it's an online dating scam like this, or its domestic abuse, you know, it's it's a power dynamic. And what these types try to do is maintain power over

their partner. It is not an equal playing field, it is not an equal relationship because they are constantly maneuvering to keep themselves in the power position. And you know, in this case, the alleged Tinder Swindler. You know, he he used this crazy story of being in peril and needing money, but he was manipulating these alleged victims all the time. And it's almost as though certain narcissists are

almost grooming women from the start. And that's why there's such crossover between this story the Tinder Swindler, and the many others along with it. Along with you know, normally we have cases that you know, end in death, but the beginning of those cases often start with the exact same grooming process us you're talking about. So it's important that we all listen up. But I mean, look at Dirty John right that story, it was the same thing.

You know, you have the love bombing, you have the gas lighting, you have another red flag future faking, the you know, Tinder Swindler allegedly did this too, right, like, oh, I see you as the mother of my children and all these things that we're gonna live here and all of these things. Um, that's very intoxicating. We all want that. They also don't respect boundaries, you know, they keep pushing them. They always find a way to get what they want right.

And then you know, lastly, which really is the number one thing. The lack of empathy. You know, it's a tell tale sign um when they don't care about other people and they don't have friends, like long term friendships. Also, Oh, that's a big one. That's a huge tell and something that's a commonality we see a lot and perpetrators in the crimes that we cover, is this mysterious non life they apparently ever had, you know, they don't have long

term friendships oftentimes. That's so interesting. So those are the top five. You know, as you were talking earlier about the science of it, if somebody is falling in love or is being loved bombed and the dopamine increases, I would imagine if you're a narcissist and you lack empathy, that must be very intoxicating as well. To also know that you're kind of giving a rush to somebody and maybe for that mere moment you get the same rush and then you're onto the next, you know, because that's

so fleeting. Yeah, I could see how that is so dangerous. There. There's a term used by many people and experts and clinicians and narcissism is that they're really looking for fuel, right, and when you think about it that way. They're getting fuel for them from the relationship, but when the relationship ends, they're also still getting it. Every bad interaction, whether it's a fight over children or money or whatever going on, they're still getting fuel from it. If you engage, right,

that is excitement and power to them. Uh, they're empty in many ways, and that's what bills them up because at their core, they're really very insecure people with this you know, shell and mask of bravado, but really deep down they need this fuel in order to feel important. And you know, that's why there's something called the gray rock method where you you become like a rock or a stone and you don't react, and then you give them no fuel, and that's when they don't they you know, go,

they go find another source. So if you feel as though you're in a situation with a narcissist, or someone's gaslighting you, or you've been love bombed, or someone's calling their ex crazy and now you're realizing this person's crazy making you should just cut all contact off and the less you give, that's the only real cure, right right, And they like to kind of heap back up forms of supply for this fuel, so they will keep xces

on deck. They may say, well, let's still be friends, and then they think they can call you whatever, block and any contact. It's only going to lead to more emotional torment for you. Look for these red flabs, look for these warning signs that you are being taken advantage of a predator. And that's why I'm writing the book I am because I feel so passionately that women need

to be educated in this. We see that time and time again, not just on this podcast, but on any of the true crime projects we're working on, where a family member or somebody may come in and say, look, you're not seeing clearly right now. You have loved goggles on, and this guy is dangerous. You know. Immediately, as a sign of solidarity to their partner, they cut the family out or cut the friends out. That's a big piece we see two isolating a potential victim or tar get

is you know, game on. If you don't have any friends and family to step in and sort of raise their hands and say red flag central over here, lose this person, guy or girl, then you're sort of left to your own devices. And if you're being gaslight the entire time, making yourself, you know, being made to feel that your air quotes crazy. That's why that word is so dangerous, and I'm so glad you bring that up.

The word crazy, which is you know, in part why we chose it for this title, because it's such a word that is thrown away by people up my ex as just crazy, and chances are that's probably not true. The first question we should ask is what drove them crazy? And so people get embarrassed to say, oh, my goodness, I was pushed to the edge, and I'm too embarrassed to ask for help. At this point, I'm in over my head and next thing you know, you're in either

a con situation or far worse. You know, you're a victim of murder. So where I live in Connecticut, we have a new law that took effect October for twenty anny one, and it's called Jennifer's Law Jennifer's plural. Maybe some of you have heard of the Jennifer Doulo's case. He was a woman in New Kine in Connecticut, we believe was murdered by her strange husband, who later killed himself. And there was another Jennifer in Connecticut who also went

through Magnano went through domestic abuse and was murdered. So it's named for these two women. And what it basically does is expands domestic abuse laws to include coercive control. So what is coercive control. It doesn't have to be physical. It can be emotional abuse, Financial abuse is something that is seen a lot um. It can be you know, sexual abuse, right, intimidation withholding basic needs from someone, um and resources. So all of those things are makeup coercive control.

It's just starting to be used in our courts here. We're hoping that other states will follow, and this is something that the UK has actually lead on. You know, a lot of the coercive control experts I have talked to here and interviewed for many articles I've done for Miss magazine and other outlets about this say that all

abuse starts with some form of narcissism. So it really ties into everything you talk about on your podcast because these violent situations and these murders we hear about that our domestic violence situations start with a power and control dynamic at their core. Certainly, if you're in a situation you fear that maybe nobody will believe you, or that's not enough abuse to constitute help. And I'm thankful that you're bringing that to everyone's attention because it's that's stage one,

get the help. That's exactly the case. And you know, in in family court situations and domestic violence situations, there's been this history of say, oh, she's just being emotional, or we don't want to get into any of the emotional stuff. I mean, that doesn't matter. So what this law and this movement that's starting now says is, yes, what that does matter. You know, that really does matter, and that ties back to online dating and privatory practices.

It does matter if you're deceived online. There are real consequences, There are real harms to you. And I think more and more people are validating all victims point of view on these issues. Yeah, thank you for shutting it light. You want to know the red flags. But then sometimes you can overcorrect and think everybody's you know, just like them. You know, you're kind of like, are there good people anymore?

Or they all that? You know. The reason it is so devastating is it messes with your entire view of the world and part of the cycle. You know, it's the love bombing, which is the idealization phase. And then the discard phase is not so much always just a quick clean discard, you know, them discarding you. It is a painful process of intermittent behavior where they're nice to you and cruel to you. And when they're nice to you, you want to go back to the fairy tale and

you want all the nightmare to go away. And that's a human emotion and it's normal. And but this whole thing is called cognitive dissonance because you can't kind of wrap your head around this person you thought was so amazing and wonderful and had your back. It's the person out to get you. And um Actually, Cecily in the documentary says that I didn't know that someone could be

so fucking evil. I think that's why it's so important that we're even talking about it today, which is a little off format from a typical episode of Crazy in Love, but it's very important as we are in you know, Valentine's Day month, arguably the first Valentine's Day ish that the world is opening and people are stepping out of quarantine and you know, in some ways have been starved for love and affection, which makes so many more people

clean targets for you know, dangerous behavior. You know, people have been locked away. Now they can get out there and start keeping people, and we need to be reminded of the tools to do it safely. Let's stop here for another quick break. So here's one tip for that. I mean, the number one thing, honestly is to trust your gut. Sometimes you want to believe what you see and you want this so badly that you don't listen

to your gut. I'm so glad you said that, because again, that's such a mixed message for single people out there, which is three dates is the rule. You should know you know right away when it's the right person, When it's your person, it's it's instantaneous. And again, even if that's the case, it still takes time to get to

know a person. So if somebody, although that you might be fantastic, tells you that you know you're the one they've been waiting for their entire life after a coffee, that is, although might feel good, not a good sign. They don't even know you yet. How could they possibly know that much? And it's really easy to want to hear that so deeply that we fall for it. And also, you know, These same rules also can apply to relationships

that are happening right. You could be married and in a relationship with a narcissist or a sociopath and just really didn't see the signs and may feel in over your head now. So a lot of these things that you talk about, the love bombing, the crazy making behaviors that can happen when you're already knee deep in something and there are way is to get help. The biggest piece of advice I have is to work with someone like a coach or a therapist who understands what you

are up against. And obviously the women I help who are going through divorce, it's essential that they have an attorney who understands what they're up against. Even some brilliant attorneys who have not had experience with these creditory types don't understand the chess game going on, right, And so you've got to have somebody protecting you who gets it. And also, to your point, make sure you trust your gut.

And even if your partner is presenting themselves to you and you're scared or in any way feel unsafe, but the rest of the world doesn't see that side yet, you know, I would imagine that narcissists are also very good at hiding bad behavior went around work, colleagues or your family or friends. So you know, you may feel like you're in a little hole by yourself, you know,

make sure you seek help. Absolutely. I started kind of googling pathological liar, which led me to narcissism, which led me to learn about and then I devoured every book and anything I could on it. When I was going through and I went to a support group at my local women's shelter where I, you know, had gone to their fundraising breakfast. I never thought I would be using their services, and I did. And actually, a couple of years later, I spoke at their annual fundraising breakfast telling

my story. And so it's it's really important because other people don't understand what it's like. A lot of times, these perpetrators do have this amazing public image. That's wonderful. Right, they could even be public figures, they could be successful in their fields, they could get that kind of adulation where it validates to you that, oh they're a decent person. Right, they can even be faith leaders. I've heard of that.

You know, people you would not suspect the worst thing for them is for you to pull that mask off and for them to be closed. Then they're they're naked to the world when they've been spent their whole lives building up this false image of themselves. And keep your friends close. You need that support group. And if any relationship tries to separate you, male or female from your your circle of people, and that could just be one person, you know that one person could ultimately be your lifeline.

Can I just say one thing about the Tinder swindler women who spoke out in the documentary, Yes, coming Forward was extremely brave because they knew that some people were going to say, oh, it's their fault, right, they got douped. How stupid are they? Some people even put comments over did you notice they're all blonde? I mean, you know, really nasty comments and what they've been through. You know, use a little empathy yourself. I mean us Alsa, you know,

had to check herself into psychiatric ward because of suicidal thoughts. Yeah, that's so true, and yeah it does require a level of courage that is so easy to underestimate. And yeah, very grateful that they did. It's an amazing documentary. If you haven't seen it, to any of our listeners. Please do on Netflix right now. It's it's a really worthy watch. Anything that you want to share with listeners, Well, I'm

a journalist and a divorce coach. I help women take their power back during and after a divorce or a toxic relationship. My coaching practice is called Freedom Warrior because that's what I and all the women who escape these relationships are. So you can find me at freedom Warrior dot info. That's my website where you can find out about my coaching for women before, during, and after divorce or a toxic relationship. I offer a free thirty minute

consultation if you go to the contact me page. I also did a virtual workshop in January which was called have a Nark Free New Year, and you can get the recording there. It was a half day all on narcissism with eight different speakers, so we had women on from across the country. I'm on a mission to educate women and then about these predatory types and that's why I'm writing my book called Don't Fall for a con How to Spot narcissists in sociopaths before It's too late.

And also follow me on Instagram at Freedom Warrior tribe and on Twitter, Amy Paloco p O L A c Ko as a takeaway. Here Amy Paloco's cliff notes and top five red flags to look out for when dating so you can protect yourself from predators. Number one love bombing. This is when someone comes on too strong, too fast. It may feel great, but you just have to watch it and let the relationship play out. Two gas lighting. That's when someone tells you something is not true when

you know it is. This is a favorite tool in the narcissist toolbox, so go with your gut and trust yourself. Three is future faking. That's when your partner makes larger than life promises about your future together, the children you'll have, or where you'll retire. Four calling all of their exes crazy. Finally, the telltale sign is a lack of empathy. Anyone can look for clues to this if someone you're in a relationship with doesn't really care about other people and aren't

able to experience this emotion. If something comes up where you say, oh, that made me feel bad and they look like a flatline, that is a red flag to you and a hint that something is very wrong. Shameless plug. If you're enjoying Crazy and Love. Leave us a review To view our recent documentary Murdered Missing in Montana. You'll find it streaming now on Peacock. Follow us on Instagram

at Katie Underscore Studios. Crazy and Love is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Grieves and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ta. Crazy in Love is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Stay safe, lovers,