From Significant, this is Crack It In An Hour.
Hello, and welcome to episode two of Crack It In An Hour, the show that's kind of in the title. We take a problem out in the world, and we try to crack it in, you guessed it, one hour. With me as always are my cofounders of Significant, Jesse.
Hello.
Roman.
Hello.
And I'm Simon. This week, we have Jesse leading with a problem that we're gonna try and crack an hour. So, Jesse, off to you. What do got?
How to bring aerobics back. No. I'm kidding. Obviously.
Well planned.
Yeah. I just didn't think we cracked it. So I
don't I mean, we've been talking about it a lot since.
No. I think we've been working on the business plan ever since last week. We've been spirited see
others too from what I've heard too. So that's interesting.
Guys, this is good marketing for the previous episode.
Yeah. I know. It's a good idea.
It's fun. Called the
callback in the biz.
Yeah. Good job.
Well, jokes aside, I I was gonna bring back the fruit topic, which I'm I'm pretty sure at some point we are going to discuss how to reverse the decline of fruit, because I'm pretty upset about that one Right. On a personal level. But I do have a different topic for us. I'll start the clock.
Okay. You're gonna
start the clock. In The timer is counting.
Okay. Perfect.
Okay. Hopefully, this is fun. I think maybe not as not as excite no. You know what? I'm not even gonna say that. It's as exciting as aerobics.
Great.
In in a typical Jesse fashion, I probably have too much research here. Perfect. So Perfect. Might throw it out eventually. But here's the problem. How do you rebrand the process of getting older?
That's interesting. As someone who is getting older and is really thinking about aging a lot lately. Okay.
Yeah. I I wasn't gonna I wasn't gonna call anybody out on their age, but there you go. And and I I
hear you're at for
the record.
We're all getting older. So I know. I know.
Exactly. Exactly.
Of us are getting older than others is what Jesse's implying.
Well, you said it.
Brian Johnson is maybe not getting as old as we are.
Okay. Shall I give you a little bit of history, a little bit of brief? Okay. So we're rebranding the process of getting older. Can you make the idea of aging exciting instead of scary or bad?
I have a lot of things we can talk about. We won't talk about all of at the beginning, but I want to think about when did it become bad and why did we even become so obsessed or when did we become obsessed with the idea of youth and youth culture? Are some of those, like, habits and culture that have gotten ingrained in our minds over and over that maybe we need to break? But just to give you a little bit of, like, historical context. Please.
So it's kind of interesting. Obviously, like in in ancient civilizations, it kind of went both ways. Some civilizations really valued the concept of youth and beauty and really associated those things with strength and power. Whereas you have other cultures, primarily Eastern cultures that revered elders for their wisdom and and still do. So we kind of it's not certainly not a one size fits all conversation
on aging. It's a Western problem.
I I wouldn't say it's not necessarily. Okay. But I'm just talking the history right now. Like, do we value youth versus value wisdom and aging? Gotcha.
Then we get into we're we're all the way back in ancient civilization. Now we get into, like, the Renaissance, the medieval era. And this is when like Europeans in particular were on the hunt for the elixir of life. Like this was a really big part of history where everybody was searching for literally like the philosopher's stone, the thing that would make you immortal. And people searched for years and years.
And and what's interesting about that, it was less about appearance and it was more about vitality. It was about being able to stay strong and active for much longer. This wasn't like keep me beautiful forever. This was having sort of the the thing that would beat death. And then you get into like the nineteenth and twentieth century, and you sort of see the birth of beauty standards.
So before that, we weren't necessarily like in the realm of physical appearance being the the description of youth. But then but then, like, photography, advertising, Hollywood, like these things in the in the nineteenth, twentieth century really shifted the conversation, really kind of solid
twentieth solidifying aging as something to be fought rather than embraced. Okay. Then there's like a couple key moments. And I'll I'll give you these and then and then maybe I'll I'll pause on the research a little bit. But there's a great there's a couple interesting things. So obviously, you had in, like, the nineteen twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, you had the rise of modern beauty. You had cosmetic surgery. I think I think Botox was actually discovered a little bit later in, like, the early nineties or the late eighties, but you still had a lot of, like like, plastic surgery was happening before that. And then something really interesting happens in, like, the fifties, sixties, and seventies where you have where, like, counterculture becomes a thing.
And counterculture is literally youth culture. It's like the idea of rock and roll and rebellion against traditional values, And all of that made aging feel like a loss of relevance, which is a very important part of this conversation. Yes. Because again, it's not just about beauty standards. This is like, if you are you are losing touch with reality, you're no longer cool.
You're losing relevance. Exactly. But it was the fifties, sixties, seventies version of that. And then you get kind of into really like beauty, like proper billion dollar industry, anti aging industry around fitness, skincare supplements, again, Botox being FDA approved in like the early nineties. And now, of course, we're all the way in the present day where like, we're we're so far past all of that into biohacking and longevity science and all of these things.
So that is like, that is the that is the history. There's also some really interesting sociological and psychological theories around why we fear getting older and why we attach some negative ideas into that. I could go into those things, but I also realize I'm throwing a lot of information. I want you guys to ask questions. You know, interestingly That's mine. And I got a lot of questions on that. But
Is this gonna be a therapy session? Yeah. It could
be. I I I maybe I should make it clear I'm not a certified therapist, but I'm happy to try. Well, there's the Peter Pan effect. That's like a What's that? That's I mean, it's it's basically like
You don't wanna grow up?
You don't wanna grow up. And there there's not necessarily fear of death, but there's a bit of like an existential dread attached to that. And it is a very real thing where people, like feel that their cultural capital is attached to how they look, how they show up in the world, how their age is perceived. And so that you literally The Peter Pan effect, you just literally don't want to grow up. When you get into maybe not all the way to fear of death, but people definitely, definitely fear the idea of decline.
Like, when you start to literally lose your physical sense of self, your mental sense of self. Like, these are real scary things. It's terrifying. Of course. And that's that is very yeah.
Those things are are quite difficult. Yeah. I mean, there's there's a lot of things that we could, like, we could get into around how to talk about the shifting cultural attitudes towards aging, how to we could talk about loss aversion. I could go so many directions, but I feel like you guys probably have questions.
I got a question I got a question of clarity Yeah. Roman, if you don't mind. Okay. So it's how do we rebrand aging? It's not necessarily, like, how do we rebrand aging more gracefully or anything more specific.
Because I'll give you the that there's two theories attached to this. My theories, not not proven sociological theories. One is if there is a like, let's take the let's take the capitalist approach to this conversation. If there is a multibillion dollar industry in antiaging, there's probably a multibillion dollar industry in aging.
In proaging.
In proaging. And then there's
the other
that looks like? I'm just curious. And I don't mean because that's an interesting conversation right there. Like, for example, like, bad example, but an example is, like, really, really wonderful like like, senior living that's, like, an awesome place to live. Totally. Do you know what
I Like Disneyland for adults permanently.
What's the one down in Florida that's that giant village? Do you guys know that one?
Disney World?
No. No. No. There's, like, a giant senior and then there was like know exactly
what you're talking about and I
can't remember the name. Problem for a while.
Oh, yeah. Because they were all
hooked Yeah. Yeah. But but wait, like, making aging exciting and help me. Let me frame this as a question. We're trying to make aging exciting. We're trying we're not trying to make find good ideas for people in their retirement age.
Exactly. Okay. Like, I I of aging,
not the process of
being old.
Because here's the other the second theory. The second theory is we're all gonna fucking die.
Not true for me.
It's gonna happen.
Not true for certain people.
Guys.
I'm messing with you. I'm pretty sure. I agree with that theory.
I'm going to die. So there's no point. It like, we've been fighting this forever and So, no, this is not about, like, having more joy in your retirement years. It's how do we stop fight how do we rebrand the idea of getting older to be something that is exciting rather than something to be feared?
So so first of all, I think it's I think it's a It's a great topic. It's a beautiful topic.
Love the topic.
Because, like, to your last point, we're all gonna die. Might as well make it fun. Yeah. Might as well make it exciting. Let me ask a question. Do you think you can so I loved your, like, rundown of the history of how we got to today. Yeah. The society that's obsessed with beauty, anti aging, the supplements biohacking, tracking everything about your body, all of this. Right? Do you think you can dissociate the question from that part of society?
From the aesthetics, the obsession with the aesthetics part of society. Does that make sense? Because there's a Yeah. Because there's to me like an the obvious path about this that we need I think, to discuss is like maturity, knowledge, experience, all of this.
Right? Older.
Yeah. Exactly. But but most people, given it's, like, part of modern culture, will take it immediately back to, well, I I have bye bye meat on my arms despite working out, like, you know, two hours a day, and that's just biological. That's it. So do you think you can dissociate it
from The the negatives are literally staring at you back, like, anytime you look in the mirror.
And so my question is, how do you make those not negatives given that it's part of today's culture? Like like, to to me, it's an inherent part of that question. Because, like, most people will go to, like,
how do I look? Yeah. Yeah.
So I asked myself this question, and I go back and forth because I think the truth I mean, I'll just even speak from, like, tackling any sort of strategic challenge, I would always ask the question, well, what's the real root? Like, what's the real root of the fear? Is it death we fear? Is it missing out knowing that people we know will continue to be there when we're not? Is it just the unknown as we get older and older, we just don't know what's gonna happen?
Is it being irrelevant? Is it being undesirable, which is mostly linked to the physical side of things? And I don't know. I don't know. And the truth is, I think you probably can't separate the two things, but I think you have to find a way to make the other half of the conversation more interesting and more important.
Not to not to pretend the one side is is forgettable Yeah. But make the other half of it equally give it as equal of attention as we give the physical side, and maybe maybe you could get somewhere.
Do you think antiaging is trying to sell desirability and relevance? I'm just picking up on two words you said there that I was like, oh, that's interesting.
I mean, definitely. I think I think people put their their value, their personal value in how they look, how others perceive them. It's it's feeling that goes back to the youth counterculture point. Like, I think that's a pretty deep rooted even though it doesn't look the same today. Yeah. I think you wanna stay relevant, and I think you want it's a core human need to feel desire.
Because can I give you, like this is a slight tangent, but I think it's just somewhere where my head goes to that's not anti aging,
but is interesting to me, which
is like, I always admire people who age, but also still have a sense of style? Do you know what I mean? And the reason I'm bringing that up is because I think there's something interesting in relevance through fashion, relevance through other means that's not necessarily just going anti aging. But, like, for example, like, John Malkovich is an older dude. He doesn't try to not look like an older dude, but he wears he wears really smart clothing.
He's got good outfits, this, that, the other thing. You know what I mean? And I'm always like, there's something to be said for that. And I'm not saying that can be like, hey. Look at the pros of aging. But it's like, when you turn that thing slightly away from antiaging, what can you take and still make part of the beauty of aging? Does that make sense?
It does. I don't know what to make of it yet.
I don't know. I don't either.
But I did take a note because it might be part of the end thing. I it does. I think it it means that you let me try to unpack it, and maybe I'm completely off. But it means that you can still find your own find your own relevance.
Does that make sense? Of maintaining relevance that don't necessarily require you to try and claw back youth.
Yes. Exactly. To your point,
desirability, let's put that aside for one second. But as far as if relevance is one of the things, I think that like, it's it's kind of like I know this is this is too binary. It's not this simple, but, like, sometimes the best way to figure out what how to brand something is to figure out how they're branding the opposite of the thing. Right? And what can you steal? What can you take? What can you leverage? What can you reposition? What can you deposition? All those sort of things.
And if relevance is one of those things that's like people are people think antiaging is an opportunity for relevance. It's like, okay. How do you put relevance into aging?
I think it's a really inter I mean, first of all, I love the process, and you do it often of like, well, let's look at the opposite thing to see either if you can use those things on the other side or just what not to do. And I think it is. I think it's really interesting because to understand relevance, you have to understand irrelevance.
Totally.
And I actually think, like, this and and redirect me if this already takes us to a place we don't wanna go. But even when you look at the the terminology around the process of getting older, all of the language takes you to a place of irrelevance. Retirement. Retire.
Yeah.
That is, like, to no to no longer matter. Like, talking about and and, like, this is a this is also why people I mean, that the the most outward expression of fearing getting older is obviously the physical part because that's what our culture obsesses over, and that's what the business side of our culture obsesses over. But even like workplace ageism is a massive fear for people because most people have put their majority of their identities into their careers. And when I mean, you hear it all the time when people retire, they're like
They don't know what to do.
What do
I do with myself? And so there's a lot of fear as you lead up to that point in your life. I'm getting I'm getting a little off track, but I think the the language itself contributes to the idea of of feeling irrelevant. That's something that has to change.
Were you gonna say something Roman before? I apologize.
No. No. No. I I I still think, like, the like, as we're getting older, like, two of us around this table, I will not name names, are, you know, over 40. And, you know, there's that thing when you're, like, not 40 yet, that 40 is, like, a tipping point Yeah. That you're getting old, that it's that thing. And, you know, it's culturally admitted that that's it. You're an old person.
You're over the
hill. I mean, over the hill. Not an old person. I'm exaggerating. But you're over the hill is a good way to put it. And I actually think it's much better in real life than what culture is I agree. Is portraying. Like Do
you think that's exclusively for us? And I mean I don't mean just the three of us, but I mean, like No.
No. I I I think, and I think it will get better over time. I think over 50 will be
Oh, two.
When I say get better, like, I I am talking about, like, just the ability to just take a step back and understand what's happening, having a bit more experience in approaching the situation, having certain knowledge of certain things. I think I guess that's all that's all maturity wrapped up under one thing. And and I'm not saying I'm mature today, but I'm more mature today than I was ten years ago, and I will be more mature ten years from now than I am And I think that's not not spoken enough about. Like, on the same subject, that article that made, like, the headlines in the New York Times about Gen X women having the best sex of their lives is, like, it's fucking amazing. It's like we're we're talking about people who are above 50, and everybody says, oh, your sex life and fun is done when you're above 50.
Whatever. This is just, like, culturally accepted that it's that way, and it's actually not. Yeah. So it's like there's so many things, whether it's maturity, whether it's, understanding yourself, your body, whether it's ways to have fun that are, like, amazing. So you're bringing
bringing up an interesting take here, which is that the the PR about aging does not match the experience of aging. Right?
Yeah. And it's true. It's kinda what I said and heard like this as a as a one liner. It feels maybe back to your point of like, is it us? Because, yeah, we're lucky.
We're privileged. We have access to health. We have we have the resources to have fun and to, like, go on vacation and all of this. So, yes, it it might be, you know, a a small portion of the population, but I still think there is an opportunity to show a part of aging that everyone, most people can have access to Yeah. I should say.
I agree.
That is just miss Brendan.
I think, like, if I think about the things that are, like, really great about aging, and, I'm like, for anyone wondering, I'm I'm not that old. I'm 96. But, what I've learned so far is, you know, you're not as, like, on you're not as emotional as you were when you were younger. You're a little more kind of, like, controlled. You have a little better understanding of things.
Wisdom is real. You know what I mean? Like, understanding experience is real, all those sort of things. You have a better sense of self, hopefully, by this age where you you kind of know who you are, what you like, what you don't like. But on the flip side, I think the thing that a lot of people struggle with is sort of a calcification of who they are.
Like, I still think, especially in North America, that there's a lot of people who sort of, like, still define their identity by who they were in their twenties. And I think part of having to rebrand aging is rebrand the process of continuing to evolve, continuing to learn, continuing to grow as a means towards relevance. Why? Because if you keep accepting new ideas, you keep accepting new things, you're always gonna have and be a part of the conversation. If you're talking about that thing that happened fifteen years ago because that's the only part you sort of identify yourself still still as, that's where the that's where the relevance disappears right away.
Can I throw a wrench in that? Sure. Alright. Because I agree, but human the human brain is is tricky.
It is.
And there I you guys knew I was gonna bring some behavioral psychology to this conversation. But there there is a cognitive bias called the peak end rule, which basically says that we tend to remember the peak and the end of an event of, if you put that on the timeline of a life. I mean, think of any experience you've had. You remember the peak and you remember the end. And so the problem I mean, even the term over the hill suggests there was a peak
And now you're on your down.
You're on your way down, and so you assume that everything between the peak and the end is just a decline because that is the physical image that appears in your head.
But do you think everyone associates the peak with a specific time in their life?
I think that our culture has really muddled the purse it it's it's it's a sense of time. I mean, like, your your midlife crisis over the hill, like, all of these terms yes. Go ahead, Roman.
Yeah. But that's real. That's not marketing. There's a biology to it. There's, like, there's a life, you know, whatever it's called, life expectancy. Like, we're not most of us are not gonna live beyond a hundred of our generation, the next generation. So when you reach, like, four forty forty forty five, yeah, it's kinda like midlife. Right? This is not mismarketing. There's a reality to some of it.
I okay. And, these are some people, and I'm I know I'm in the minority. I don't look back at my twenties as like, that was the best. I'm like, it was good. Thirties were better. You know what I mean? Like, that's just me. But
I agree.
Yes. But you are living in that moment now. So when you're we're talking about how do you make the how do you rebrand aging? How do you make it so it's something that people stop fearing and actually start
Okay.
Getting excited about? So when you're when you've gone past it, you have the wisdom to look back and say, oh, actually, I love where I am now. How fun, and I can appreciate the experiences I had back then. But if you believe and this is I bring up the peak end rule because there is a there is a there is, like, a part of life that we don't pay enough attention to as a culture, which is the the part between the peak and the end or the supposed peak and the end.
So you think just just because sometimes my caveman brain can't keep up with your intelligence. Are you saying that part of this is also just literally, like, the way we feel about aging as a society is partially just a product of our own biology that can't really process that moment in our lives.
Yes. And I think we haven't found the right language as well for for shifting the conversation, because I'll give you the second the second sort of little bit of behavioral psychology, which you guys have heard me talk about before, which is loss aversion, which applies to many, many things. But in this case, the fear of losing your youth is more powerful than the excitement of gaining wisdom.
Yes.
You can sit so it's a really tricky, really tricky behavioral, like psychological bias that you have to overcome, which means you have to change the way it is marketed, way it is talked about because that you're right. Everyone is right. You do feel more mature. You feel more excited. But the fear is such a powerful behavioral driver that it is always I'm gonna talk like we're in a capitalist business here because we are.
Fear is always gonna be more powerful at getting people to buy something, AKA anti aging products, then the promise and hope of gaining wisdom would be as a behavioral driver. So how do you actually I don't think the idea of making people feel like, hey, it's going to be amazing. You're going to feel more mature. You're gonna be more self confident. You're gonna have all this wisdom. I don't think that will work. I don't think that's the way.
So where do you start?
Oh, you tell me.
I'm trying to figure this one out. This is hard.
It's kind of the fear of the unknown that you're talking about. And I I I feel like some of it is very, personal. Totally. Like so I'm definitely not solving anything here. I'm just stating what goes in my head.
I
know. It's it's like it's extremely personal. Some people have, like you know, some people stay in jobs they don't like their whole lives. Mhmm. And it's not just because they like being comfortable. It's fear. It's the fear of the unknown. Yeah. And and I've that that's fine. I respect that.
It's just what Jesse's talking about is that. It's like it's if I know the past, you know, it's the power the and the power of nostalgia. Again, like, it's back. It's gonna make a comeback every single time we talk, I think. It's like, why?
Because it feels comfortable because we knew exactly what it was, what it felt like. But the future is always scary. You know, it's scary today because everything that's happening. It was scary twenty years ago because everything that was happening. It was scary forty years ago because everything. It's always
But how how has like, I mean, there's companies, there's entire, verticals that try to that that sell and do immensely well on the promise of the future.
Okay. That's a good point.
Let's let's talk about that. Yeah. Because, like, there's there's tech. Right? Like, I mean, I think tech for the Internet, literally, like, the funniest thing is when you first Internet came out, it was literally like, man, stuff is gonna be so cool, and they couldn't really put their finger on any of that stuff, but they sold a lot of stuff that worked.
Do you know what I mean? And then I think there are other I think there are other verticals that sell on hope and potential. You know? I think that's, like, if you look at I don't know whether we all, like, it's always comes true or not, but, like, I think fitness uses that quite a bit. I think Yeah. Nike is a good example of, you know, just do it, become the thing, all that sort of stuff.
I think hope and potential are really interesting words because what it feels like now is trying to trying to find the positive trying to find the silver lining in the silver years, if you will. Like
But but I I think to your point, it's not even the silver years necessarily.
Totally. Right? It's but but I mean, like, hey, it's gonna be not the best, but you're gonna feel you're gonna care less what other people think about you. And that's not the same thing as giving somebody hope or saying, you actually haven't even reached your potential yet.
But I think you can I think there's an angle there?
No. That's what I I'm agreeing with you. Yeah. I'm I'm saying that that's a very different take.
Seen that in the world. But if you said, like, hey, you haven't even answered all your own questions yet, and you haven't even figured out your own potential yet. And guess what? Like, it's hard to think you're gonna reach your full potential at 24 or 23. It's gonna take some time.
And to your point about okay.
So Keep chasing.
So, yeah, keep chasing. Never stop until you die.
And then die. Keep chasing and
then die. Chasing.
Okay. So there no. Before I go there, I actually wanna stay because you're talking about industries that actually promise a future that sell the unknown in an interesting way. There's also another thing to look at with with some other industries that maybe could be interest interesting, which is there are industries where the concept of aging is actually aspirational. Wine.
Right.
Classic cars. Maybe even luxury, which is a little bit of but we talk a lot, I think, between the three of us around, like, origin stories and, like, heritage as a real lever of luxury and, like, experience. So is there anything that we could take from some of these industries? It's interesting because they're not industries talking specifically about aging and vitality, but they take the concept of age.
I didn't go there because it's used in a different way. It is. You know what I mean?
Does it I don't know. Does it serve any any potential purpose? I
I think it's interesting. I think when I think of how you're gonna sell people on aging, you need to reframe you need to find a way to reframe the experience of life. Do you know what I mean? Go on. But, like, I I think you do need to what we've talked about a little bit in in our very limited time, is okay.
So far, the expectation hasn't met the reality. The reality is actually much better. On the flip side, some people get stuck by the idea of being afraid to take that next step. And I think the the, the thing I keep going to is, like, this is this is this is weird, and this is maybe a little too personal. But, like, aging is a privilege if you do something with it.
But for a lot of people, they don't do anything with it. And and I think, like, that's kind of, like, the the thing that I always find is, like, Roman, when you were it's funny when you interpreted my question of, is but but is it just us and and you? And you were like, yeah. We have access to health care and all those sort of things, and that was true. But the way I was thinking about more was that, like, the three of us are always still interested in new ideas.
We're still interested in new experiences. We're still interested in kind of exposure to different things. And I think that's the privilege of age is when you continue to keep that mentality, but you have the wisdom to know some of the pratfalls that you've you've fallen in the past. And I think that's kind of what where my head goes to with when I think about what's really great about aging is it's like if you never stop being excited about stuff, now you just have a way bigger user manual on how to operate it. Yeah.
But you could see
it both ways. It's it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. It's like, are people not excited about stuff because culture puts them in a box? Totally. Or is culture put them putting them in a box because people are just not excited
about because they're personally afraid of going out and experiencing new things.
I think if culture didn't put, like, people getting older at whatever stage, like beyond the midlife, let's say, in a box, then you'd probably see more people being just more curious about things.
Mhmm.
Because they'll be more, like, invited to do it. They'll be more accepted. Like, we do put people in boxes, generally speaking, right, of the culture.
Do you think culture puts them in a box? Do you think people put put themselves in a box or both?
I think that's the that's what I'm what I don't know. And, like, it's it's probably a mix of both, but there's definitely a component of Like, oh. Like, being a certain age, like, I don't want your opinion on what's on what's happening with this or that. Yeah. Well, actually Yeah. You know? I don't know where I'm going with this.
No. No. No. You you push back or I respect your pushback.
No. No. It's it's just I think I think you're bringing it back to the to the to the the first question by saying this. Which is Which is like how do you make aging exciting? I think if we make aging exciting, you'll have less people doing nothing with their lives Yeah.
As they get older. The com the comparison with, like, some of the industries I also, like like, I'm not sure. I'm like, I can't really process it because it is about I think I guess the one thing I could I shouldn't say one thing we've gotten to. One thing that stuck in my head is if you wanna make it sticky, you gotta make it about the benefits of it. You gotta make it about the experience.
You gotta make it about all of the things Simon has been talking about. But that's kinda like the opposite of wine and whatever luxury goods and, like, Birkin handbag. You see what I mean? It's like Yeah. This is literally just about
Totally.
Age. Yeah. There's no benefit to age. It's just it's old, therefore It's good. It's more expensive. Heritage. It's good for wine. Yeah. But but for humans, it's a little different because the more you grow, the more actually you just become more knowledgeable. You become
better at living.
Yeah. You become better at living. Yeah.
That's a pretty good that's a pretty good wine. The older you get, you know, than better.
Can I on that, can I can I reposition all of the things I hate about aging as positives?
Absolutely.
If if we were to say the the process of aging is getting better at living, So why does it mean that, hangovers are worse? Well, because it's your body telling you it's not going to make living your ability to live any better. Why does it say that sleep is going to be more important? Because it's reinforcing, if you wanna get better at living, that you need more of sleep. Look at that. I just turned a negative into a positive.
Into a positive.
You're welcome, God.
That's
It Wow. That took
a really huge Yeah.
That was a Simon special.
No. But that's I I do think that's really interesting trying to actually and and look, you're not gonna be able to convince I think this is this is one I guess we'll find out at the end if we think we've cracked it, but I don't think I don't think you'll ever be able to convince everyone No. That, aging isn't scary. But I
do don't think so either.
I do think that what you're talking about is a really interesting way to try to at least reframe I think there's two things that could be important. Reframing the conversation, reframing the negatives as positives. Yeah. But also, what would happen if you just give equal weight and importance and time in the cultural conversation. I'm not even saying decrease the anti aging talk.
I'm just saying increase the aging talk. Make it fifty fifty. Talk about both of these things as much and have as much conversation about it. And I just wonder if creating comfort around the topic already starts to reframe some of the fear and makes it feel like something people want to talk about.
I think that would help with the throwing people in the box thing too that you were talking about, Roman. Right? Yeah. I I mean, I
think this is what that New York Times article is is doing.
Absolutely.
But also you touched on something which we as marketers talk about too much and, you know, maybe sometimes shouldn't talk about it. But let's talk about it this time. Who are we talking to? Because it's like you gotta start somewhere. And if we wanna start with, like, the people who are gonna be the biggest advocates of aging, you know, you probably wanna start with the ones we were talking about who are, like, not afraid of the unknown, like, the curious Yeah.
Whatever. Yeah. Whatever we whatever they're called. Like, they don't have a name. I don't care what they're called.
People who have a curious mindset. A natural curiosity.
Exactly. If you start somewhere, again, like anything, you build your belief with a mindset, a set of people that have a shared mindset, then you'll get somewhere. And I think with the people who a curious mindset, you can probably get somewhere because because that's what we're talking about. It's like less fear of the unknown, more excited about the future, etcetera, etcetera.
I think that is really interesting because if you just treat the entire conversation of aging as one of curiosity versus one of finite solutions or something you can buy your way into or something that you just have to change your mind about, but instead treat it as a curiosity, I think it becomes so inviting for so many people to even just to begin to question, even if you are at the same time practicing anti aging, buying creams, doing whatever, but also practicing curiosity towards the process of aging, I think would have an immense impact on the cultural conversation around it.
It's a lifelong pursuit too, curiosity, which is interesting. So okay. So I like this because now okay. We're starting to build something here. So our target isn't everybody.
Our target is let's call it people like, there there has to be a certain level of I don't know. You call it wealth or whatever that we'd have to talk to. Because, like, you know, if you're struggling to survive, I don't know. Is it just too tough to like, we're talking about the world here. We're talking about billions of people. There's probably certain entire areas that wealth
Wealth is stronger term. I I I
think Wealth is stronger term.
I think I think, you know, the middle class is definitely part of, the Great.
You sort of mentioned. With that. Yeah. And then we're speaking to we're gonna start by targeting people with a curious mindset. And we're gonna tell them about the possibilities that aging informs towards your curiosity. Is that where we're starting?
I'm not even sure that you tell anyone anything versus open up forums and cultural conversations, and you find the people who have been having this conversation far longer than we have and turn them, give them a platform, you make it a I think if you jump straight towards, you know, just like we always tell our clients, you can't you can't tell people your quality because then they'll be like, yeah, right. We can't tell people, hey, aging's awesome. You're gonna gain wisdom and be They're gonna be like, please shut the hell up. Yeah. I don't wanna get older.
But if you simply open the door to conversation, and there's so many ways that you can do that in obviously an interesting this doesn't have to be an academic platform, but open the door and invite people in to be just purely curious about it without trying to convince them anything feels like the way, the way to start chipping away at the problem.
So would you say instead of selling people on aging, we're selling them on a mindset towards?
On a curiosity towards the unknown.
Yeah. And because this is interesting. Because, like, let's pretend the three of us, we start aging.com tomorrow, and we decide, like, there's
real Is that available?
There's a real business model here. We're going to make this a thing. Not all of our stuff is going to be about the act. Like what we're not saying is not just curiosity about the act of aging. We're talking about the ability to harness curiosity and use that to fuel a fulfilling life that's really exciting as you continue to age. Right?
I think curiosity is, like, more of a mindset you're targeting. I hate to say this, but it's I think that's the case. It's not necessarily what you're marketing. It's the people you're talking to. I think it's a bit of a it's a bit of a show, don't tell kind of a kind of thing.
Like, again, that New York Times article, the reason I talk about it is, like, on that daily newsletter, the morning newsletter that I read every morning from the New York Times I also read the Wall Street Journal for the records just as to, like, I'm not You're
a learning man, Roman. We get it.
The the the they have a thing now, which I actually love, and it's really good clickbait. Actually, it works with me. Every day, they tell you what what the most read story of the previous day was. So that's massive. Photo play. Fantastic. Yeah. And one of them this week was that story about having the best sex of your life when you're a Gen Xer. You could like, sex is obviously one of the big reasons of the fear of aging.
Totally.
For men, women, whatever. But there's many of those. Like physical ability Totally. Mental ability Safety? Safety. And you can find a gazillion stories
of
people who are better off now in those areas than they were twenty years ago. Yeah. So there is a component of, like, let me share my experience on this as a normal human. Not I'm not talking about, like, a 72 year old woman who's run, like, hundred two marathons in her life.
You know? Like, you can run a Ironman even that old. Yeah.
And I I I go back I'm gonna go back to the language thing. It's it's relevant to your point. But, like, there are there are you could basically point to so many different, language structures, and I guess I can only speak in in English. I'm sure they exist elsewhere, but things that we say that have for have helped form our perception around aging that could almost become topics. Like, I'll go back to the retirement one.
So many people are now, like, having what I think culture is calling the second act career. Like so many people are realizing, I can have a second act. I can have a third act if I want to. So that's a whole pillar of curiosity and conversation that also reframes the concept of retirement. Or, hey, the the I'll give you another bit of language, like, you should dress your age. That's just something that we started saying. Why? I don't I have no idea.
Yeah. Simon was talking a bit about that at the beginning. Yeah.
Yeah. Like, what and so, yes, you bring an Iris App full type person. Like, how do you have a conversation on like, but what does that even mean and why? Yeah. Or one of like, one of the ones I can't stand is just the concept that like, the concept, I don't even know I wouldn't even call it a trend, but just, you know you're old when
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Why did we even start saying that? I don't ever feel old. Maybe I will at some point, but like I just choose not to even consider using that language because I don't even want to convince maybe I'm just digging my head in the sand.
Could I make an argument? Those people aren't part of our target. I think a lot of those people aren't part of our target that we're talking about here. Like, you've got to start from a small place because I agree with you. Like, you can't just go, like, old people, not anymore. You're, you know Totally. Part two living or whatever it is. You know what I mean?
What I'm suggesting though is not that you try to convince those people otherwise, but that you use these pockets of culture that have sort of, whether you know it or not, have been buried into the back of your mind use those to create almost topics and pillars. Like, you take some sort of influencer and you you attack this entire conversation around, you know, you're old when.
Right.
And you have the opposite conversation and anyone who's curious about it.
You know you're old when you can afford groceries. Because when I was poor, I could not.
Or you I mean, you see, like, the, you know, you're old when you're excited about buying a new pan. I don't I'm just excited about buying a new pan. Why does that make me old? I just it's a nice pan.
Yeah. Because you're gonna afford sick pans.
Yeah. It's gonna cook really good stuff. Yeah. I wish it would do it by itself, but it's still a cool pan.
It's tough. It's really tough. Because, I mean, I think, like, again, for me oh, we have fifteen minutes. Oh, man.
I don't know. I forgot. I forgot to be there.
Are we gonna crack this?
Got too excited. I forgot about the timer, but, yes, we are I still think get
better at life,age.com is Yeah.
I think we gotta do this. But you object?
I prefer to keep chasing.
Keep chasing.
Well, that's for, like, the go that's the young go hards, the young to old go hards.
Sounds like it.
It's a little, like, you know, like, some people have some people like, Miller Lite, other people like Johnny Walker. You know what I mean?
I think it should be aligned for a wealth management company. Keep chasing. Like, it's never gonna
you're never gonna get there, buddy.
It's like FOMO marketing. Oh. No. That's pretty good.
But I think, like, again, I think, if you could re if we were talking about, like, the dream of this, the dream is you rebrand aging in such a way that it affect it effectively changes the way people live. Right? Because they're no longer I think what we've talked about a little bit is, like, getting stuck in your ways, no longer trying new things. Even, like, some of the getting pushed into a corner by others, that's not your fault sort of thing. Like, if there was a different approach to how we feel about aging, how we do this thing, some of those things would probably disappear.
And I maybe I'm speaking for myself, but I think I've always subscribed to the idea that we're we don't have a lot of time. We're here for a very short period of time. But if you yes. You have all the time in the world. Actually, you technically only have fifteen minutes and four seconds.
But I've always thought that way, and I thought that that was really motivating to be like, hey. You're here for a good time, not a long time. You gotta do everything you want. But actually, this, even like researching this started to make me think, well, what if I started to see my my life, and I don't know how long it's gonna be, as a lot of time, a lot of time to try a lot of different things. Two careers, three careers, I don't know.
Live as many places as I feel like living. Try different things. It's if you reframe it as many, many beginnings instead of a three story
act That's interesting.
That's when you start to undo the peak end problem. Yeah. Because it's just a cons it's not like you we look at life as a as a literally a whatever three, four act story. But maybe we have more time than we think, and maybe we should start to see that as a long time. Life is long. Life is long.
Do stuff. Because I
think that's the second part.
That's the second part that
you're getting to, which is the do stuff part.
Dostuff.com.
Because you dostuff.com.
We did it. We cracked it. But, like, what you're talking about is
the fact that you it's twofold, which is like, you're like, there's a lot of time, dot dot dot, a lot of time to figure out what to do with because I like doing stuff. And that to
me keeps being the part that I wanna, like
The curiosity. Pull through.
The curiosity, the go out there and do stuff. Because, like, I think that's whether that's people doing it to themselves or society doing it to people, I think the saddest part about aging is how many people just stop doing stuff.
Totally. I I really, really love life is long. Because, like, we've heard I've heard it a million times. You said life is short. Right. Life is short. And even the minute you say it, like, my brain short circuits because I'm like, oh, wait. But actually, life is kind of But in
the wrong hands, that means the opposite of what you intend.
That's where I was gonna go. The reason people say life is short is for you to do stuff.
I totally I know. Absolutely.
I many beginnings more personally than I like life is long because many beginnings means more opportunities. Again, for the curious. I think it's a it's a way to activate a little bit the curious the curious mindset. Life is long has a risk of being taken the other
way.
You get lazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But but I also think that this comer
told me once that humans, are more motivated by fear than, opportunity. Life is long falls into the opportunity trap, Jesse.
Our second callback,
which is now
technically the third callback. So, yeah, there you go.
No. You're right. I mean, it is there is obviously a reason that we say we're we're here for a good time, not a long time. But but I do think shifting the concept of time in people's minds, talking about not one continuous act, but many
Yes.
Could be the way to start peaking that curiosity.
Well, a lot of it is sort of entrenched in really traditional like, I mean, like, it wasn't that long ago that it was like you got out of school, immediately got married, had kids, and, like, kinda, like, you know, by 60, it was like, man, hope you're living for a while because there's no guarantees on you know what I mean? Like, things were a lot more expedited. And, also, like, the opportunities as as much as, like, I'm this isn't like a a a podcast to break down the socioeconomic situations of generations right now or anything like that. But, like, even just an understanding of the world compared to even thirty or forty years ago with the Internet and stuff like that and knowing what's out there and stuff like that, mobility, all of those sort of things, like, you used to what was what was he like, wasn't it, like, in the sixties, like, people typically had one or two jobs their entire life?
Oh, totally.
You know what I mean? Like, the whole thing is flipped on its head, and there's two ways of looking at it, which is it's all unstable and it's terrifying. Or there's nonstop new beginnings, nonstop new opportunities if you figure out how to leverage aging and chase it with a curiosity. I'm Simon Bruin. Thank you very much.
Is that your, like, unofficial mic drop? Here.
Okay. That was pretty good.
No. I I and I'll add I'll add maybe one other it's it's a slightly different motivator to the idea of curiosity, but I think there are some people that very much subscribe to the thought that in order to truly live, you have to embrace death.
I do not agree with that whatsoever.
I knew you wouldn't, but there are many people that say the only way to, like, truly, truly make the most of your life and to live to the fullest is to understand or at least accept the fact that it is going to end. Okay. And so
That's a little different.
It is different. And it
is the same thing. I don't know how I said it the first time.
I completely agree with the second part. Yeah. You And it probably deserves its own podcast, like reframing death in people's minds. Oh, man. Because death is inevitable, and no one wants to talk about it.
I don't like talking about it.
There you go. It's like that sacred thing that no one wants to talk about it. It's inevitable. No. Alright. Let's Let's
park ten minutes. Let's park let's park that one. Okay. Great. Let me let me bring that subject to
that topic as when next time I'm the host and see how that works with Simon for an hour talking about death. No. I think it I
think it'll just be a Jesse Roman podcast. Simon will be hushed in the corner somewhere. Exactly. Okay. Okay.
So I do think we're on to something with curiosity. I do think we're on to something with new beginnings. I'm gonna be a broken record that I think in that process, there's so much language that has to be, like, reshaped, redefined, recreated around the idea of aging. I think we've also talked about the idea back to your question at the beginning, Roman, can you separate the concept of the physical component of aging with all the other components? And I think no.
No. And maybe we're not trying to separate these two things, but maybe we're just trying to give them equal weight. So for as much conversation as there is around anti aging, let's also have as much conversation about aging, which is where we can get into forums and influencers and content and conversations around all of these new beginnings and stories.
I agree. If you if you don't have a good counterpoint, don't even bring it up. You know what I mean? That's kinda where I am with some of that stuff. Like, if someone's like, yeah. But, you know, your skin's not gonna be as soft. I'm like, moving on. You know what I mean? Like, we're I'm not gonna be
like, well, actually, you won't miss your skin that much. You know what
I mean? Like, that's always a dead end. So I agree with you. Because, like
All I know is my skin's a lot better now than it was when I was 16. So I'm pretty happy about that.
But no, I like this. It's it's So we're going after the curious mindset with this idea of when this isn't the right language for it, but life is long, there's a lot more beginnings ahead of you. Beginnings is a weird word just because it's been used so much in Yeah.
But it's fine. We're not we're not to make ads.
Yeah. We're not trying make ads yet. But this idea of life is long and there's a lot more to do is interesting.
Yeah. Let me ask a question. What what kind of brands or even categories do you think should embrace this entire conversation?
Well, I know one.
Go on.
The ones who are helping you, like, track your your your health journey.
Yeah. Yeah. I would say even athletics in general.
Athletics in general? Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Which is interesting because it it is
both,
physical and mental. It is. Back to the conversation we were just having.
Like, if Hoka made shoes that were for people of certain ages.
Well well, you know HOKA's story. Right? No. Originally made for runners, not like French guys in the Alps. But then the way they exploded from a business standpoint and what I believe don't quote me. What I believe gave them the financial stability to then grow in, like, beyond that is older people.
Interesting. That makes sense.
Because I hope I'm not gonna get quoted because I don't have sources for that one.
We'll we'll point any lawsuits directly to you. You are the CEO.
So Now they're cool with the youth. Now they're awesome. Yep.
Yeah. You talked about fashion at the beginning. I think all fashion's already made a lot of, like
I I got a weird thing about fashion. Hot take. Do you think fashion is already mostly targeted towards a lot more towards wealthy older people than it appears on the surface? No. You don't?
No. Yeah. I don't think fashion can have different meanings in that case because look at what's happening on the runway and who's, like, obsessed with what's happening on the runway. And, like, where do you think Kendrick got his, like,
jeans from? Yeah. They're Celine, aren't they?
That was a runway. That that was, like, a big trend of this year. It's like, I don't know if which don't quote me on which fashion show, like, Yorkers, whatever. And it starts there Yeah. And then it goes in culture. Floods. And then Yeah. Just wait for it till I rock, like You're wearing bell bottom flood. Bell bottom flood on on Monday.
You're breaking back boot cut.
Yeah. Boot cut. Alrighty, guys. Yeah. That's a choice. Don't necessarily agree with that that take on on fashion.
Yeah. I I yeah.
No. I think I do think in some areas, fashion has already made headwinds in terms or or progress in terms of, like, cool, older like, positioning older influencers or even designers as, like, cool aspirational. So they've kind of crossed at least the the bridge of, like, it doesn't only have to be cool young people looking cool and being aspirational. So I think they've made some progress there. But I I think as a I think as an entire industry Like,
if I yeah. Fashion's a for me, fashion's a tough one because fashion is fashion is it's about it is about youth.
Well, fashion is cyclical, like, also. So it just comes back around and around.
I I I I don't
know if it's about youth. And I don't know. Maybe we have to make a distinction between fashion and style.
I think we do.
Maybe they're two different We do. But if we're not, then I don't think it's about youth. If we are, then maybe.
I said the opposite of the thing I maybe have said before, so I think I'm just spun out.
But the but the to go back to your question about which categories, which brands, there's two ways to answer that question. There's, like, which brands who are currently marketing to, let's say, 30, 40 years year olds telling them it's gonna be awesome. And there's also all the brands currently marketing to, like, people above 50, 60, 70.
Totally.
And they're like, hey. It's actually mean, not all of them, but you see what I mean. Like, a lot many, many of them. And then you get to what we wanted to avoid, which is a conversation about how to market to, excuse I'm sorry to use that language, retired people, Jesse, but we'll change that that work.
On that.
We'll work on that, and then have a million ideas about that community and that that target audience.
Yeah. Like. Yep. I agree. Okay. And then maybe the last thing I'm curious about is we just as I'm as I'm recapping the conversation and circling back on all the things at the very, beginning, we talked about the benefits of aging, feeling more confident in yourself, having more wisdom, but to some degree, those things are maybe not as motivating as we think they are. Or have we uncovered other benefits to aging that we could talk about? I mean, really, it's the new chapters, the new beginnings.
Yeah. But it's like the thing, it's it's sharpened curiosity. And by that, I mean, like, when you're young, the reason I did a lot of things I don't do anymore is because I didn't know I didn't like them yet. Do you know what I mean? And it's like, as you get older, you're a little more like, well, I like that thing.
I think I'd like this thing. You know what mean? Like, I don't spoiler alert. Don't go to nightclubs. But, when I was younger, went to nightclubs and was like, I don't like going to nightclubs. Know what I mean? Fun here. Exactly. You know? And so it's like, you learn a lot about yourself. So what do you do at that time instead? You do things you like doing. You go to awesome restaurants or whatever it is that you find that you actually really get joy out of.
This whole subject isn't about revealing anything. It's just about finding a way to communicate something that's real and flip perception. Yeah. It's it's slightly different. But
I think that's the that's the big realization for me in this conversation and the thing I love the most because the I've obviously thought about it slightly longer than you guys have as I was bringing the topic to the table. And I could not think about like I could not find an answer to be honest, of how you reframe it until we started talking about purely curiosity.
Yeah.
So And with
all due respect, we have been thinking about it a little longer than you have.
Okay. Yeah.
Just just
I meant in terms of this conversation we're having. But sure. Yes. As you just reminded people, you're both older than me. Congratulations. Okay. We are down to our last minute and thirty seconds. Any does anyone wanna throw a bomb in the conversation? Any final questions? Or we Yeah.
That's what we gotta do at the
last minute. Alright.
Well Jesse.
I start answering. Do I think okay. Yeah. Roman, do you think we cracked it?
I don't think we did. I I think we're onto something. I think there's very good conversations happening, but I wouldn't say we cracked it. I think it was it's a phenomenal topic. I love it. It's cultural, societal, human, biological. It touches, like, so many subjects. Like, cracking that in, like, an hour is a is a tough one, but I'm quite sure we're gonna keep talking about it. Yeah.
Simon?
No. We didn't crack it. It's huge. It's massive. If the aging client called us, I'd be begging someone to give us a few more days to keep thinking on it because we haven't cracked it yet. But to your point, we got some interesting starts. I think we got some interesting starts. I think we got some interesting thoughts. I think we got some interesting approaches. What do you think?
I'm I'm in full agreement. I mean, I do think we have a couple of URLs to purchase after after we
stoppedcom. Yeah.
Keep chasing?
Keepchasing.com. But, yeah, I think I think even
at life, I do like.
The get better at life. Life is long, Com. I mean, come on.
We got a we got
a couple ways to go here. But I I agree. I think even this hour has already opened my eyes, I think, to some other ways to to talk about it. But I don't think we cracked it yet. No. I'm very excited to keep talking about it. That was obviously the alarm. The hour Yeah. The hour is up.
That's it.
Someone I know really well would say, we're well on our way.
We're well on our way. Should I close this
out? Please do.
Well, thank you for listening to crack it in an hour where sadly we did not crack it this time, but that's part of it as well. Kinda being being realistic about whether we did or we didn't. If you would like to ask us questions, reach out, please do. You can reach us at hello@crackitpodcast.com. In the meantime, thank you so much. Tell your friends, follow us on all the places you follow podcasts. And anything else, gang?
Goodbye.
Farewell. Thank you so much. Bye.
Bye.