Cowboys Break: Second Best?

four a while. Where would we be without that? Oh? My god, that year. There's no way we're gonna miss that year. Welcome to latest edition of the Break Well if st WBC Morri Studios at the Star, got Nick, David Amber here with me. We got a full crew. It's been now a few weeks now, we've been rolling with a full crew. So this good. Let's keep this going. Although I won't be able to be here next week, Okay, Yeah, it's up to you, Derek. Yeah, next week, I got

I got something I gotta do. But so I won't be here next week, I assume one of you guys will will host and keep this thing rolling heading into the draft. So but I'll be back for the week of the draft, so that'll be good. Cool, glad to hear it, really, Nick, is that what we're gonna go? Is that? How yay? Okay? All right? Yeah? Because the week of the draft. I mean, it's gonna be like Dave's Draft Show. It's gonna be the Dave Show. Dave tell us about this guy that guy. Sure, all right, good, Um,

here's what's gonna do. We started a little bit of a well not a little bit. We started a conversation last week about the draft and what the Cowboys have done all the last five years. We thought we would get through several rounds. Um, these guys only got through one and so that leaves us with a total of six other rounds that we can talk about today, and we're gonna jump into the second round right off the bat.

We talked a little bit about Kelvin Joseph last time, and we talked about, you know, kind of where his expectations are, where a selling is. But I want to I want to move to the other cornerback, the cornerback that had the phenomenal season this year. And my question for you guys is what are your thoughts on Trey Von Diggs. I know that's a big question, but I think there's like there are these different schools of thoughts. Some people focus on the fact that he's got all

these interceptions. Some people want to focus on the fact that they think he gives up too many yards, or there's there's this a really big range of opinions out there with regards to what Trey Von Diggs is and how good he is as a cornerback. What do you think? My honest, genuine opinion is that the only reason that this is even a conversation is because he plays for

Dallas Cowboys. Like I've never in my life can remember a conversation like this where a guy that was named first team All Pro is being like hotly debated about whether or not he's good at his job or it's unbelievable to me, and it's a valid criticism. He's a gambling type of cornerback. He's certainly was beaten on plenty of occasions. He was still one of the best four or five cornerbacks in the league last year. The numbers

speak for themselves. And on top of that, it's ironic because they got rid of the guy that didn't give up yards but didn't make plays because that wasn't good enough. Like they got rid of Byron Jones for this very reason, and they got exactly what they said they wanted, which is a guy that makes plays. When you play with aggression like that, when you gamble like that, you're gonna

give up some plays. Trayvon Diggs did not give up plays nearly often enough that people are like, he's a liability, okay, whatever, he led the league in picks, shut up. If he played for the anyone, if he played for the Indianapolis Colts, I would be reading think pieces about why are we not talking about the best corner in the league. Trayvon

kind of like Xavien Howard in Miami. People are like, if you're a real football fan, you know who x Avian Howard is, and only casuals don't realize that he's the best. And Treyvon Diggs has an eleven pick season and people are like, is he good? It's ridiculous, and it's just it's one of those things. The Cowboys are the most polarizing team in the NFL, and that's it is what it is. I'll get off my soapbox now, Yeah, Dave talked for three minutes. You should have talked for

three seconds. Sorry, it's dumb. It's dumb. He's an outstanding football player and the only people that don't say that are trying to justify the publication that they work for to look like we dig deeper into the numbers all that. That's a bull Yeah, it's it's ridiculous. He's eleven interceptions last year he scored two touchdowns. I don't know if he gave up two. He gave up maybe two or three. That's a great ratio. That's that's that's exactly what you

want from mccorner. I absolutely love him. I love the guy, love his son too, the cutest. But he's someone that and you guys know that I'm super critical and I criticize a lot of people here on the shop. It is because of the show and the job. I mean,

that's what it is. Whatever but sposed to yeah, yeah, but no. My point is I'm not going to criticize someone that has done things that I haven't seen happen in the cornerback position for the Dallas Cowboys in a really long time, at least not since the time I've been here. I'm not going to criticize someone that has made the secondary of the Dallas Cowboys be exciting and be something that you look forward to in a game. So I take those criticism put it to the side.

I'm happy he's here. I'm glad to see what he's done. I'm excited to see what he can do this year. And I think he's a player that hasn't necessarily reached the ceiling. I think he can keep improving in those areas that people are criticizing. I'm not saying he's always going to have that amount of interceptions and every year or even get more, but he can definitely keep improving

in the areas that he's being criticized for. You look at the second round picks of the Dallas Cowboys have made over the last five years, Kelvin Joseph, Treyvon Dicks, Tristan Hill, Honor Williams, and Cheetobel Woozier, And I want to talk a little about a Cheeto because going on that same thing of cornerbacks, do you guys think that that maybe there is this unrealistic expectation from fans, maybe for media of what a good cornerback is because you

look at guys like the conversation came up with Byron Jones, like is that really a good cornerback? He didn't give up a lot, but he wasn't getting you interceptions Cheetobey. I mean people wanted to say he's not that good. Now you can question how much money he was given, but he had a good gear last year, do you think and then obviously Trey Von Diggs, But do you think there's an unrealistic expectation that either you have to

be Dion Sanders or you suck at cornerback? There always has been, at least since the league started changing over this last decade. Outside of being a great quarterback, it's the hardest job in the NFL in my opinion. I mean, you can't win. You cannot win receivers. You know, we keep talking about how five and six freak receivers coming to the league every year. Kids are playing seven on

seven from the age of eight. Rules basically dictate that the game is going to be passed happy and you have to be good enough to you know, if you give up sixty percent completions, you're probably pretty good. You know, Like the deck is stacked against cornerbacks. It's always been unfair. Cheeto was fine while he was here. He wasn't amazing, but he was a solid player. Anthony Brown, he's a solid player. I mean, we spend so much time talking about him because people think he's a bomb when he's

really not. And it was the same thing with Cheeto in my opinion. Yeah yeah, I mean good enough to get a nine million a year. I mean, Cheeto to me reminded me of Anthony Hitchins of like, yeah, I mean it's okay, and we can't afford to pay you. We probably wouldn't mind keeping you, but you know you're gonna get that kind of money. Go ahead. And then he went and went to a team that ended up

doing well and playing in the playoffs. If Cincinnati didn't make the playoffs, I don't think anyone would have been talking a lot about Cheeto. You know, a lot of fans wouldn't have seen him all which And it's it's the Hitchins is a fantastic point because people see and I'm thrilled for Cheeto. I'm glad he got his contract. I'm glad he wound up on a good team, got to make that run. Had a good season. But people see Cheeto in the Super Bowl and it's like, well,

we screwed that up. It's like, no, you didn't. You didn't Anthony Hitchins going to the Chiefs. He didn't put the Chiefs over the top. With all due respect to him, I'm not trying to throw him under the bus, but like he went to the team that had Mahomes and all these like he was a nice piece on a Super Bowl team. It's not like Anthony Hitchins carried them across the finish line. And it's like, oh, we made

a mistake by not giving Anthony Hitchins sixty million dollars. No, and I don't think they made a mistake by not giving Cheeto twenty three million. Yeah, and I don't think they did either. I do think, though, that Cheeto had a bad rap here. I think that fans probably thought of him as much lesser of a player than I think he really is. You guys agree with that, well he was. I mean there was a good while when he was dealing with the hamstring injury and he was out,

and then there were questions around that too. He's he really all that hurt? Or is he? You know? Really trying to get every and get back on the field. I think there were rumors on that around here. But going back to your question too, I think it's a combination of both where you have to yes on one end. You have higher expectations sometimes, but it's like, how do

you combine everything because you're not gonna get everything. It's like if you see Anthony Brown combined with Cheetoba Woozier, You're like, Okay, that's not necessarily the best combination there, but you're gonna need a guy like Anthony Brown on the team, pair with someone maybe like Trevor dix so. And yes, Cheetah was with Byron Jones at a time, but again I can't even remember how long he was hurt for, but expectations went up when he had that run. What was it that he ran like a cheetah? I

guess like twenty five seconds? Yeah, but it was crazy. But I think that after seeing something like that, your expectations go even a lot higher and you're like, Okay, well, this guy is very um talented, not talented, what's the athletic athletic and he can maybe beat this type of player. But then injuries happened and then he just never really we never really got to see it to that level. You realize he had basically the exact same season in

Cincinnati of his normal seasons. Here, I'm looking at his numbers. He started fourteen games for them, sixty four tackles, fourteen breakups, two picks his two. His eighteen and nineteen seasons in Dallas started fourteen and sixteen seventy one tackles, seventy nine tackles, eleven breakups, fourteen breakups, one pick each year. So he had more picks in Cincinnati. It was two instead of one, But I bet it. But and I think that actually tells the postseason. I think he had two at the posts.

But that also tells you. That also tells you my point. It was the Yeah, I think it was the Super Bowl. If you look at how media and fans and Cincinnati talk about him, they think about him as, man, that's a really good cornerback. In Dallas, it was like, man, get this guy. I didn't. He's a bump. And that's my point, Like I do think, and there's probably somewhere in between. I'm not saying he's great. I'm certainly not saying he was great. He had a lot of room

for improvement. But I also think there's this unfair expectation that that cornerbacks have here in Dallas, that fans and media put on them that there's an next pick, it's Anthony Brown. Anthony Brown is not a bad cornerback, but you listen to fans talk, there's a thought that he's not very good. And I just don't think that's actually

because of what you just said. The fans, they a lot of them don't have the middle ground, and they don't have to because the one's gonna hold them accountab you can, I mean, there's you don't have to be you know, are you really angry? Are you really happy? No? No, I'm just if you win games, you're happy and you don't care about any of that. But it's just it's just everything is so black and white all the time. There's an in between. He was a he was a

solid player, right, it was good. It was good player, a second round expectation by paying nine million for him, but he was a solid player. Yeah, that's and that's the thing. I mean, it's okay, it wasn't a bad pick. It wasn't a bad pick. They needed corners they got to that year. One of them, they'll hear the other

one priced himself out of being here. Yeah. Yeah. Jordan and Cheeto both are the like definition of my opinion of like decent to good picks, not great picks, because if they were, well, Jordan did get a second contract, but it was not great. It was a it was like, come back to us, Well, the Cowboys got their price, whereas Cheeto was like, I'm getting a better price than

what you're offering me. Um. Yeah. I feel a tremendous amount of sympathy for cornerbacks and in the modern NFL, and I think Cheeto is a very good player, and I think along those lines, if we're moving on, I mean, I think Connor Williams is exactly the same. Yeah, he started, he played, It wasn't good enough for them, but he was good enough for the Dolphins to make a lot of money. So cut on the same type of deal. I think our sorry, go ahead, no, I just the

holding penalties that will color my opinion of Connor. Uh. I mean his last season was his worst season here, I think supposed to be the other way. Yeah yeah, and I mean that sucks. But back I'm we literally we had. We had an argument about this in the office this morning where it was like, you know what, what dictates the success of a second round pick, like what benchmarks? Well? And unfortunately I haven't had time to

do the research. I'm going to do this because fortunately they changed the CBA and eleven and I think that changed the way you look at the draft. I want to know how many second round draft picks over the last decade have signed second contracts with their team, because I think that is that's the expectation when you're drafted in the second round. I wonder how often that happened.

Hornerstone kind of pieces for your franchise at the Idea or what were you saying guys that you like enough to bring them back and like we're gonna, yeah, we will pay you above market value to come and continue to be part of our team. Because Connor Williams is such a we talked about him a little bit last week.

That's such a It's a fascinating case study because he's right on the line of like good or disappointing pick, because on one hand, you're like, he started four years for us, he got it, he helped us get to the playoffs twice. And on the other hand, you're like, he's a top fifty pick who had his worst season in his last year and you didn't resign, And so you could say either one. You could say he was a pretty good pick or he's a disappointing pick, and

I think both sides have a case. That's that's an interesting one. If it really if if teams really evaluated based upon do they end up in a second contract with the team that drafted them, and that look good for Dallas. I mean, obviously, Cheeto Connor, you can question whether you think Tristan Hill will be back, but he certainly has been injured so much you haven't really gotten a real good feel for what he can do. The hit. The hit rate in the second round in the time

that I've been here is pretty bad, let's honestly. And let's let's also factor in a little bit too, is that all teams kind of view it differently, and if you want to take it back a little bit more than five years, I mean, we know the Cowboys have used the second round as a as a trying to hit home runs. Yeah, you know, and they swing for the fences. They they're getting the guy that's injured that

it fell a little bit. For whatever the reason, They've always done that, and so they took a risk with Jalen Smith, took a risk with the Tank. With Tank, they took a risk with Bruce Carter who had a torn acl Randy Randy Gregory was a huge risk. Questions about Kelvin Joseph. That's why he was in the second round. He wasn't his athleticism that pushed him to the second round exactly. So this so their philosophy might be a

little different than others, which is which is fine. I mean, but they are trying to hit home runs and I don't know if you would say that they've they you know that that approach hasn't really work. It hasn't paid the type of dividends that you would hope was What was the risk with Tank? That's why I made that face and the injury. I don't honestly, I don't remember that, not not really, I don't. I wouldn't read it up

to go get it now that was the risk. I guess it's the risk that you don't have a third round pick. Yeah, but one was Lyle he wasn't drafted. That was dropt he would be a first round pick. But yeah, I forgot he wasn't drafted. I thought he just dropped back to um. But they, yeah, they liked to. They like to you know, try to, you know, get a home run there, and it hasn't happened. I mean, we thought the ball was going over the fence there for Jalen Smith, but it didn't win, got it? Uh?

That is that is a fantastic analogy of like you just belt that thing to left everyone does that really go to your game? Gone on? And the left fielders like, I think it was, like, yeah, it was. It was. It was to the track because when he made it, when he made to the Pro Bowls, the outfielder had his his heels on the Warring track, but it just couldn't get that extra like six feet and then all of a sudden, that thing's and then yeah, he's not

in the league. I think he's with the Giant. I didn't think he was gone for I saw something the other day where he posted something and a lot of the comments were like, I hope that Giants signed you back. So I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I don't keep up with him, So I can't really tell you for sure. I don't either. What were you about to ask him? I have a question? And this

is kind of difficult. I guess maybe two. But you know, the draft brings me a lot of frustration because we always hear your drafting for the future and all that, But at the same time, it's like, Okay, you gotta worry about the now and this year and this season

and all that. And we've seen and talking about all the draft picks that they've made and all that we've seen, the kind of guys that they've had a lot of success with, and then now talking about these guys that end up leaving or whatever were they're a bust or not. Blah bla blah. But it's like, Okay, how do you really look at what the Cowboys have done over the year and at what point do you say, okay, maybe regardless of the hits that they have had through the draft,

is it time to change strategy? Is it time to do something different? Is it time to go into the draft and do well maybe other teams that have been more successful than the Cowboys have been doing in recent years, or do you focus on the kind of success that they've had with certain guys. You know, what point do you maybe think it's time to really switch gears and take this a different way. That's what we've talked about. I don't, honestly, I don't think they should change their

draft philosophy at all. Um it's working. I think they should change their free agent philosophy and go for more talent to play. And I think and if that means trading a fourth or fifth round pick for a guy that's proven, I think they need to do that route a little bit more often. But they are. What they've done with the draft I think works. I do. Now we say second round, I mean there's some hits and miss is there, but I'll put their track record up

against just about it. I mean, Tocco is the only first round pick that has not made a Pro Bowl, right, and first round picking going all the way back to Tyron Smith looking oh six, yeah, I mean actually more right before, right before Tyron Mo and that was that was a tough one. I mean, I just everyone was was pumped about that. I mean, he was a great player.

And I think I've brought this up before. I was covering LSU the year he got drafted and I'm not trying to sound like the smartest guy in the room, but I was like, oh, he's not Patrick Peterson. But again, like I can't prove that, I felt that would happened. Sometimes like that, sometimes a guy can ride the cotel of a great player and they're good, don't get me wrong, but they another player that was at their position at their school that they kind of go in behind them

and everybody like Carpet, he's that next guy. MO was in. Well, forget being the next guy. MO was in a secondary with Patrick Peterson, Tyrone, Matthew and Eric Reid. I mean they were those were some floaded defenses. Wow. I didn't know Eric Reid was in that same secondary. Wow. Yeah. So, I mean, I think he could have been a much better player if he'd had a better run of luck with injuries. But I never bought the hype that he

was worthy of six overall. But anyway, not to get derailed, but for the most part, their first round picks have been have been pretty good. I mean it'd be pretty high in the Zeke and the Parsons hiring, and then even low in the first round Byron Jones, Travis Frederick. They've other than Taco and more and mo, I just I don't think there are more than three or four teams that you could argue are better than them at drafting.

I mean, like the Ravens come to mind. It seems like the Ravens always do an incredible job in the draft. What do you think I mean, what do you think they should change it up? Change up? I mean the well when it comes to the draft. I mean, and we've always looked at like Will McClay and his whole team, the excellent job that they've done. So I'm all up for it. But I would go back to what you said.

It's like free agency. It's like something needs to change and you can't keep saying or waiting for people to lower their prices and be waiting like waiting for the scraps leftover what's on free agency, And up to this point, we keep things, Oh, they're gonna what are they gonna

do with that money? Who are they gonna bring to maybe add some depth in certain positions, especially the O line, prior to the draft, so that you don't get to the point where you're forced to pick which a specific position. But they haven't done that well, you know, what's funny is Rob and I were arguing. Rob Phillips and I were arguing about this this morning. I'll take his point right out of his mouth because I thought it was really good. Is I was like, well, you know what

you got. What you got from Connor Williams is a pretty good pick. It's not like he started four years everything I just said. And Rob was like, yeah, well, when this is your free agent strategy, you need better than that from your top one hundred, like you need better production from your big draft picks if you refuse to spend money the other way. And I was like, holy crap, that's a really good point, right, And so

Will and his guys do a great job. We say it over and over again, and I truly believe that. But I think I said it on the show a week or two ago, like you put a tremendous amount of pressure on them when you're like, great job, do it again. We have to have another Mica or we have to have a guy that's better than Connor Williams if we're gonna be better this year, and it's on

you to find him. It's not realistic because that's the thing the Cowboys do a great job in the draft, they still miss on a somewhat regular basis because guess what everyone does, because it's really hard. Yeah. But here's here's the tough part too, that that I think has to be factored in. There was a time when Dallas had the strategy of we're gonna go spend big in free agency, and they still have the same ultimate results. We all know, we all agree that that's not what

we want them to do. No, I get, I get, I'm saying My point is, like they have it seems like they have these wild swings. Like at one point there was spending big, Like Nick, you remember when, well they had like three free agents, three big free agents they sign on the first day of free agency, Like that was the kind of stuff they were doing. Yeah, didn't work. And then you go to other extreme and you're like, well, we're not gonna really we're gonna only

go for a bargain basement type deals. We're not gonna really sign big guys. We're gonna resign our own guys, And that still has the same results. It's almost like you kind of want them to say there isn't in between, like you don't necessarily have to go to one extreme of the other, find one really really good free agent that can change the complexion of your team, and spend on him since and then go to to to to

the draft to get the rest of your guys. Since two thousand and five, that day that we talked about, they drive that they signed three guys in one day. They did it again. I believe in like twelve or thirteen one of those years they got like Brandon Car might have been twelve, they got like big deal. They got like big deal all in like right at the start of free agency. But in those that eighteen years,

seventeen years, that's about it. Just two times they've really just like huge splashes and and and think about it, two thousand and five Anthony, Henry Marco Rivera, and I forgot the other guy, um, Anthony, Oh, Jason Ferguson. Yeah, none of those three were that great. And then the next time they really did it, Brandon Car, I know, Kyle Orton was one of them. Um, there's a couple others and they weren't. I mean, they were like Nate Livings and Vickers. So when they did, when they do

make big splashes, it hasn't worked out either. That's my point. Like I think they look at it like, well, we tried that. But my thought would be, this is mean you gotta go all or none, right, there isn't in between. Maybe they're did pretty good last year, you know, they kind of bargain hunted, but they did pretty But I'm saying it is there one guy out there that is a bona fide among the best datist position who used to who You're like, we're gonna go out there and

we're gonna make him a target. We're gonna bring him into our team, and then all the rest of them are gonna be bargain basement types. But but is that an option? You know at some point you know, yes it is. And I think this is the time I'm gonna throw out this other point that I think fans forget a lot. And I don't know one likes it either, But it's like a lot of the fans that are like,

what are they doing with this money? They have all this money, those are the people that maybe get their whole paycheck and spend it all, you know what I mean? Because because the part is that the cowboys are saving their money, it rolls into next year. We'll forget that Jack is making forty million a year. He's not made forty million yet. This he counted like twenty, he's counting like fifteen. So at some point it's gonna really really hit. And these they keep rolling these in and so that's

what they're saving for. These moneys are about to go up, and people forget that. They're like, what are they doing with this extra fifteen million? Yeah, rolling it into next year because it's going to be worse than this year, you know. So that's something you gotta remember. The writing seems to be on the wall in my opinion that

they're I don't want to say they're more focused. I think like I just I think they have their eye on twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four in terms of like, this is where the cap jumps, and we can do this and that and the other, and that's all well and good. What about twenty twenty two that's my thing, and not like it's a wonderful point. I don't think fans should have to care about that. No, they shouldn't. It's not DeMarcus Lawrence said it perfectly when

he was like, that's not my problem. It's not my problem. For like helping you figure out how to get DAC under contract. It's not the fans problem for you to figure out your books. People are still talking about the rant you went on a couple weeks ago because they liked it so much. Wind it didn't do anything. No, of course it didn't do anything, but like, and you're one hundred percent right, and it's they have to worry about all of that, and the four year pictures just

as important as right now. Fans don't give a damn and they shouldn't have to. Here's the question, though, if we're gonna take it back to the I said, push the chips all in, what do the Cowboys think that they they're holding? We're gonna keep the poker reference, you know, do they think they've got so you say? Is it a question of do they think they actually have a team that they are that they can't just push on That's what I'm saying. Or do they think that or

do they think that they've now are now are t? Yeah? Or do they I think the Cowboys thing I think could be good, but it's not worth pushing at all. Maybe nothing, yeah, yeah, I think again, would they say any of this on the record, No, But I think that they are more along the lines of like, all right, like, you know, you can win the East this year because it's not very good, but we're not you know we we I'm not good at poker, Like it's a pair

of eight's really good. Um, yes, eights. I know enough to know that pair of aces you're gonna play, You're gonna play. All right. Then they got less than that, That's what I'm saying. It's like they're like, all right, we could win, but I don't buy that even a little bit, just because and you guys have all been around him to Jerry is the most optimistic person on the planet. There's no way anybody can convince me that Jerry doesn't go into every year saying we got a shot,

like we legitimately got a shot. And I think he honestly accepted the year that they actually what he said, it's gonna be tough, right that one year, that one year twelve and four, And I think that was more about him kind of hedging his bet publicly, but privately, I bet he was saying we got a shot. Like I think every year he thinks they got a shot. Jerry also says every year. All you gotta do is

get into the tournament. Well, nine and eight win in the East gets you into the tournament, and then it's I would to say, you never know what's going to happen. I mean the Niners were a hair away from getting there thinking of you never know what's gonna happen. I know, we got to go to break just just Chris is

over there probably legend his mind. But yesterday as a prime example, when we were sitting at our office of you never know what's going to happen, you know, and what an odd pairing of that showed up in our office yesterday Charles Haley, Oh, Quincy Carter? So random? Hey, when just happened? I don't know, so random? Nick. I'm in my office, I'm on a call, and Nick's like and I'm looking out like, is that Quincy Carter? Like? Yeah, just random, just random out of nowhere? I mean we

were downstairs shooting something. What okay? In the afternoon, I don't I don't know. Yeah, I had a nice little conversation. He's doing well, he is, Yeah, yep, it was. It was an interesting conversation for sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's last time we talked to him we did a documentary with and he was like, good job on that, and I was like, oh good, then we're so ship what he thought. I don't know what you thought? Yeah, wow, yes he

liked it good. I mean, I'm standing there and Nick and I were talking discussing this Mexico stuff, and then I see this guy walking by trying to get mixed attention. He's like, I'm like, hey, this guy's calling you. I had no idea. Who oh, yeah, this guy's calling you. I don't know who he is, but he's all right. We're gonna take our first break week come back. We're gonna move to the third round, talk about some of these third round picks, and hopefully get to the fourth round.

We'll see if we can get there this week. We'll do when we come right back. This is Dallas Cowboys dot Com Radio at ATNC. Everyone new and existing customers get our best deals on every smartphone. Why because you deserve it for turning your living room into your office and your gym. We're teaching. Grandma had a video call and teaching her again. It's the button on your left Nana, okay,

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you at Stetson dot com. Slash Cowboys. Back to the Break Esler Lenses let you see every exciting playbook, an appointment at your local Esseler Experts, and find the perfect Essler lens for you. Seymour Dumore Esseler, Welcome back. It is the second segment of the break Lift in SWBC Mortgage Studios at the Star. We did find out some a little bit of sad news over the last week. It's actually been man. You think about Miss Mariland who

passed a couple. Was that a month or two ago, three weeks ago, and then now last week we hear about ray phil Right who passed away on Thursday, I think it was, And then over the weekend we hear about the death of Gary Brown, who was a former running back coach here with the Cowboys. I never really spent a lot of time with Brown rayphiel Right, so I can't really speak to him. But Gary Brown was

a guy that I really enjoyed being around. I tell people all the time how he used to give our team a hard time before games because he would inevitably ask, did y'all pick us this week? And and then he would be like, we're gonna kill him, like we're gonna get him this week. And of course if they didn't win, he was not the kind that would run from it, and he's kind of be like, hey, get him next time. Like you know, he just he was a good dude.

He engaged everybody that was around. His smile was just one that was infectious. You just wanted to be around him. He was a good dude. Yeah, you appreciate that and that little look change that we had for a couple of years there. Um, you appreciate it for a couple of reasons. Number one, he kind of would get onto us if we didn't pick him because he's he's a coach. That's it. That's They spent all week doing that. He also understood the business, he understood where our stands. So

it wasn't a person No, it wasn't. It wasn't at all. And so you anytime you get people that that you know, I think you're wrong, but you know I respect what you do. Like that's that's the perfect time type of coach or you know, front office personnel or whatever that you know they respect what you do, whether or not they agree with it or not. And he was that way. And he was so so fun to talk to and

always in good mood, consistent. So that's the thing with UH with Gary was like, um, he engaged with us, which like a lot of people, a lot of coaches and even and players as well, is like whether or not they viewed the media as the enemy, Like a lot of them are just like the media is not there, you know, like they'll look right through you or look right past you. I've brought this up the other day.

Like a training camp, you know, like guys run out they act like there's no fans in the stands, nobody's doing anything, Like just pretend like nobody's there. Gary was the opposite. Like Gary would come out early and like say hi to the fans. He's all like he's joking with Clarence Hill or ribbing people about like oh you look hung over, Like what were you out doing last It was one time he said, yeah, exactly exactly. He was just he was a lot of fun to be around,

and I was. I was really disappointed and sad to hear that. And for fans who maybe don't know much about him, there was a piece that you guys did that we did a few years back that was highlighting this was around training camp that it was kind of highlighting the running back group and you got to see some of him on the personal side and how he invites players for a cookout. He will invite them with his own family and all that, and and just the

relationship he has with people. And honestly, this news it was so unexpected to me. I had no idea what he was going through and dealing with at all, and

it was very shocking. And it really hurts when I see people that have that kind of energy, that kind of positivity, the smile, because you think in your head, man, that person can fight through anything, and when someone's so positive like that, you just it was very heartbreaking for me to see someone so great like him as a person and the energy that he has and just kind of not be able to finish up battling what he

was dealing with. Yeah, you know, when we're talking about him the person, which you know, that's where it starts as the coach though, and I mentioned this to you guys, I think on a text, he was here seven years. In seven years, they had six one thousand yard rushers. The only one that didn't rush for a thousand yards was Zeke in twenty seventeen when he was suspending six games and still ran for nine seventy three. He had Marco Murray's best two years? Where was his first two

with Gary Brown? Darren McFadden comes out of Oakland and goes for eleven hundred yards. Zeke had, you know, great years, and then he goes to Wisconsin dealing with health issues. The guy gets hurt. A freshman comes in with the last seven games and rushes for twelve hundred yards. The guy can coach gootball. He played it, he knows it, he can relate to them, and also, like you know, a pretty damn good player in his own right as well, Like I'll never I knew that he went to Penn State.

He had a decent Penn State career, Like he never had a thousand yards season in college. He had two in the pros, so like he had a better pro career than college. And I'll never forget. I think it was the it was the Hail Mary game season finale against the Giants in twenty eighteen, which I think would have made Sequana rookie. And they you know, they won on the last play in YadA YadA. They were going

to the playoffs. But like we get off the bus and we're going to get on the plane like we always do, and Gary had say Quon's jersey, which I was like, holy, Like I was like, that's pretty damn cool man, because and like he knew him from Penn State and he was very he was very proud of him and et cetera. But I just was like, that's really cool. I'm sorry, are you talking about the Beasley catches? Yes, Okay, okay, I'm sorry. We can't just say Hail Mary and I'm

just like, it took me, remember, hey, old Mary to win. Yeah, I think that's what it's called. Yeah, I mean it was like a desperation throw. It was. It was I'm sorry, no, it wasn't stop. No, sorry, I'm not trying to. I just think I knew what you're talking my day, did you, because I was my brain? Yes, yeah, okay, fifty yard throws to win games happened too often in thirty two yards, but whatever he was, it was a far throw alright, anyway, No,

it's cool. Just just wanted to mention and give him some time and some do because he was a really, really good guy and in this business, as Day said, you don't always necessarily those kinds of personalities on the football side. And by the way, a lot of it is just like there's a mistrust, that thing happens between you're a freaky man. What it was the thirty thirty

two yards best the same thing. I'm like, oh okay, but he was like he was behind the line of scrimmage though, and Beasley was in the back of the ends, like, oh yeah, so he was nine and a half yards into the end. Ze Yeah, so it was like a forty something yards throw. But it was on the record, on the record thirty two. That is Scott Nicole forget Nicole forgets something. He told me this tested him in the middle. I texted him at ten forty fives, like,

what you're doing anything? Yeah? On the Draft show, ass brought us yesterday. I called brought us literally. While he's on the show, trying to catch up with him, He's like, I'm doing your show, Like, oh my bad. Sorry, he might have said, as he might he might have mentioned that word. But yeah, but but Nick, Nick knows the score of the Jets. The Jets game from nineteen ninety four or whatever played him at ninety three. They beat him. Yeah,

I know you got it. I know, I really twenty seven seven Beam, you want to get there first or me? Twenty seven seven is the is the the answer? Is it? The answers right? That's right, dang it. I'm mad now. Kevin Smith scored a touchdown in that game interception for a touchdown on boot off Boomer as siasin, But I don't think twenty eight to seven. Oh no, you're so make your extra point, Eddie Murray, No, probably, yeah, all right,

we're gonna take another break. When we come back, we're gonna I think this time we really are gonna talk about the third round, talk about some of the picks of the last five years. I wanna come right back. This is Dallas Cowboys dot Com. Are you hi. I'm Clint Tillison with man. I'm Jay Nobacheck, and we're both

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deserve is finally here. Back to the break all right. Twenty twenty two Draft is just around the corner here. Head to the Star and Frisco for the Draft Party presented by Miller Lite's Thirsty April twenty eight through Saturday, April thirty three day event. Enjoy live draft coverage entertainment for youth camp on Friday, the Draft Day five K presented by Baylar, Scott and White on Saturday morning. From

more details was the dallascots dot com slash. You know, I actually think we should set a time on that day, can't cafindry? We got set a time on that day when Dave and Nick and Amber go out to the plaza where the party will be and sign some autographs and take some pictures with fans and just let them know them we'll be out there at that time. You guys, go out and spend a little time with this. I'm live streaming from like ten thirty am until six pm

on Saturday of the draft. But oh yeah, what if we be out there like a nine thirty guys knowing in their right mind, would be there. No, not that early, right, I don't know? All right, y'all, text me let me y'all tweet me, let me know, let me know if you want to. If you want Nick and Dave and Amber to come out, two people are gonna tweet Derek and he's like, the people have spoken. I do that all the time. You're like a lot of people were

really mad about that one one else. No, if we look if we get if I get ten of them, you guys do it. How about if I get ten tweets saying I will show up to spend time with those three, then you guys do it. Right? Wait, check check whether these people are located, because it could be like North Carolina. If they're gonna come in, let's go, they're gonna tweet you and not show up. Right. All right,

let's talk about third round. Dave, give me a quick synopsis of your thought on what is a third round pick? What makes for a successful third round pick? I have always said I view the top one hundred as like those guys need to be um significant contributors for you. I think I've even in their round. Yes, okay, top one hundred picks um. I I used to think if you're a top third three pick, you need to start right away. I've kind of adjusted my thoughts on that

a little bit. I think in a lot of cases maybe that's unrealistic. But if you're drafted in the top one hundred, I expect you to have a pretty clearly defined role right away. Weather it's Green messed it up for you, it's me, And it's not just the Cowboys, I think just over the years, because I think that's the third round I think is really where the draft starts to get wonky in the sense of beauties in the eye of the beholder, flavor, but also like fit

on your team. Well you know, like this is an extreme example, but like if you desperately need a punter and there's a good punter, like one team could screw that whole thing up for everybody, or um, maybe you need a specific role player for your scheme that other You're like, really, you're drafting that guy in the third and it's like, well, I'm not asking him to do all of this right away, I just need him to

do this one thing. So I just think I think there's potential for things to kind of get sideways there. But even having said that, I mean, let's where where where are you're talking last five years? Is that so so here're the guys. You got OsO Diggi Zuoa last year with Chauncey Golston both was selective four and Nashan Wright at ninety nine. You had Neville Gallimore at eighty two. You had Connor McGovern at ninety, Michael Gallup at eighty one, and Jordan Lewis at ninety two. Those have been the

third round picks of the last five years. That's largely pretty good. It's pretty good, bad at all. Jordan again picked eight spots outside the top one hundred. He's still here. He's he's actually he is. His arrow continues to go up because if you're he was hurt as a rookie, he got time here and there, and then in Chris Richard and Rod Marinelli's scheme like they didn't favor him, like they didn't give him a lot of opportunities. He decided to stay. It paid off. I think last year

was his best year as a cowboy. It credited them also, they usually do this in the second round. It's been a long time, but you remember Jordan Lewis had some off the field concerns that a lot of teams decided not to even to take him off the board, and they did their homework on him, talk to him. They were very confident that whatever accusations were against him were going to be dropped and they were false, and that they were right. I mean, he's one of our favorite people.

And you never want to I've learned this lesson the hard way in a few instances, Like, you don't want to speak too firmly about anybody because at the end of the day, we only see a sliver of these people. But like, the thought that Jordan was a quote unquote character concern coming into the NFL is almost unbelievable to me from what we've learned about him over the years. Like, I think of him as one of the highest character

guys on this entire team. So yeah, but but that was just one of those that they, you know, took a little bit of a risk because they thought they were getting good value there. And it has been Michael Gallup too. Gallop is a freak Gallup home run. Yeah, that's probably your best third round pick of the last five years. Wouldn't say, yeah, easily one of the best third round picks in recent memory. Really, I'm like Terrence

Williams JJ Wilcox, DeMarco DeMarco was really good. And I let's just ask this question before the show about is there a theme for third round picks? I mean, have the Cowboys had some really good ones? And because it was our social media team, I gave him four names over the years and DeMarco Murray probably would have been the fifth one. And so but it's very hit or miss. I mean, you got some really you got some bad ones in there, so not all Jason Witten. In fact,

they're every five bad ones. You can find a really good one. Which the looming, the unseid thing is that at this point in his career, Connor McGovern is that's that's a bummer. And maybe it's unrealistic to expect a guy picked ninetieth to start right away, but yeah, he's he's started fourteen games in three years. He missed his rookie season to due to a peck injury. He was benched when he did get his opportunity last year, it didn't work out well enough that they wanted to keep

going with it. And then on top of that, we know that they had him much higher graded, like they picked him knowing they didn't really need a guard because that's how much they liked him, and that's that's kind of the stain right now, because I mean, you feel pretty good about where Neville is at this point in his career. And then Osa and Chauncey both were again like they had defined roles, like Osa was a rotational guy. Chauncey made plays on special teams and did something. It's fine.

Both of them were amazing in like September and October, and they like they were very classical, very like Rookie wall. I did a rite up on Osa right after the season, and I was like, seventy five percent of your TfL's came in the first like six weeks of the season, and you can sort of see it nose dive after that. But you still feel good about what they were on

the field contributing fair about it. Though Neville Gallimore didn't play earlier in the year and neither did Tristan Hill, and then they both kind of came back into the mix and and you know, played and all that. But you know of what's going on with Tristan Hill, Dave, he's entering a contract year and probably words a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is this is the time when he's got a

kind of he's a step up there. He's tough to Tony Pollard is really the only thing holding that twenty nineteen class together, which is it's hard because they didn't have a first round pick. You said that for years. It's weird. It's weird you don't have a first round pick for some reason, your second and your third round, fourth round was sucked too. Well, it's just it's just that you put so much pressure on that pick to

be right. Usually, you looking at the history of the Cowboys, you just mentioned it earlier, they win in the first round, so it makes everything. It colors the rest of the draft where you went in the first round and seconds kind of wonky, but third is pretty decent. Then you kind of feel better about it. Let's assume you don't have a first round pick and now seconds kind of walky,

and third you feel pretty good about. That gives you a bad feeling about the overall draft, the worst draft's ever in Cowboys history, or when they don't have a first round yea, which I don't even steal a third or fourth. You know, Jason Witten's not coming out of that. He's coming out of the one with Terrence Newman in the first round. Yeah, the production that they were getting

from Amari made it worth it. In my opinion. That's that's not my fault that they decided didn't have a first round that had already experience it was a veteran and that they'll definitely resign. I mean, if if you look at it and keep if you look at it and say, like, well, you know, Mari's still doing his thing,

getting thousand yards seasons. We found Tony in the fourth and Donovan Wilson's still kicking around, and I mean Tristan and mc governor are still on the team at least like they aren't so bad that you had to cut them. If Amar's on the team, you're like, I can live with that. But now that Amari's gone, you're like, man, that looks like crap. Yeah. If you guys, if you guys look at the draft picks from this last year, in the third round, they had three of them, uh

Osa and Chauncey and Nashan Wright. Talking about Osa and Chauncey, first, do you think which one? Do you think based on what you saw, you more excited about what they can become, really really, because I think that think also too. But Wow. That's why I wanted to say it first because I think, No, I think he's got this position flex that that's that's intriguing. And if and if they wouldn't have resigned Dorance Armstrong, I think I think that Goldston could have could have

been that guy. Um. I just like the fact that he missed all of camp and he came in and he was pretty productive based off of a guy that really didn't have any preseason games or anything like that, a rookie. Yeah, I'm excited to see if he if he you know, all off season, get some good training camp, get some good coaching, preseason games, I think he has a chance to kind of make that second year leap as big as anybody else on the team. So this is what I pulled up his game logs. This is

what I was talking about. Uh yeah, from like from week two to week we'll say week five, he tallied eight quarterback hits, three tackles for loss, and both of his two sacks in though in that like three or four week stretch. Now, that's pretty good for a defensive tack It's very good for a rookie defensive tackle. Now,

they were playing pretty bad team. I mean, Carolina and New York are in there, Philly's in there, but he even I mean, he had two hits on Justin Herbert in the win against the Chargers, and I just again, he's a rookie draft in the third round, Like, I don't expect you to do that weekend week out, but if you can do that, and I mean it, it fell off a cliff after that, like he had the rest of the year. After the games I just listed off, he had three quarterback hits the rest of the way.

Do you happen to have his the number of snaps he had in those those games, those two to five kind of going to Knick's point of kind of his his playtime may have declined, it didn't fall off as it trade crazy as you as you want to think like whre he was. It hovered around sixty during that stretch, and it did get into the forties later on in the season. But he's still I mean, he played sixty three percent against Denver, he played fifty six percent against

New Orleans, fifty three against Arizona. It was still getting plenty of time. It dipped, but not by like this crazy number. Um. But if he can do that on a consistent basis, that is, that could be very impressive production. Now moving on to the other third round pick from last year and n Sean Wright, did you expect more from him than what you saw? No? I think he looked exactly like what he was billed as, which is like a developmental guy who's rare traits aka being that

long while still being pretty athletic. Y'all were shocked, right, we were, so maybe the most shocked I've ever been. Okay, so really yes, So here we are fast forward a year. I mean again, like you say, I take time to develop, but y'all look more correct about where he was than the cowboys right now, which really, let's not say y'all because that's the funny thing, and he's not always right.

He'll be the first person to tell you that. But Dane Brugler is so incredible at his job, Like he watches so many prospects, he's got an idea of all of these players. And when they called his name, the first thing the rest of us did was open Dane's book, like, who the hell is this guy? Dane? What do you got for us? Do you know anything? And Dane's like, I think all the color went out of Dane's face.

He was like, I have a seventh round grade on him, and we were all just like, okay, I guess we need to learn about Nashan Wright during this commercial break and so that, but we we had a whole conversation about it after that day. Is like, the pick is immediately colored by what the analysts know, because that's what you can go on, right, So people are like, well, Dane thinks he's a seventh round pick. This is a terrible pick. And Dane will be the first one to

say it doesn't mean I'm right. We got to see how this thing plays out. And he does the grade for thirty two teams. He says, this is what this player would be for most of the teams, but he's not dan Quinn, and dan Quinn has a vision of what his guy is and there could be other team

that had a seventh round pick. But having said that, coaches can be just as wrong, because Rod Marinelli is the reason why Tristan Hill is here and Taco Charlton got drafted probably, and what was the safety that Kansas City took instead of taking there was like Thornhill, who's been a pretty good player. So it's I mean he played thirteen games. He started the BS game against Philly at the end of the year. He did make some nice contributions on special teams. Nashan Right, Yeah, so I

mean scored a touchdown. Yeah, he was one of the twenty four, but two. I twenty it wasn't twenty four. Two. I look at it as a red shirt year for a guy that needed some seasoning. But I am I'm you know, I'm curious to see what it looks like in year two, that's for sure. And here's what's interesting. If he has a really good offseason. Um, I don't like saying this because I mean, the guy could be here all year, but you know, something's got to happen

here with a cornerback position. And so you know, Anthony Brown with his five million dollar price tag, I mean, you get to the end of the season and I mean end up training camp and all that. If if Joseph, if Nation right have made these leaps and all that, I mean, it could happen where they maybe make a trade or something like that, because because that's what you

hope for, that's what you hope for. Because we talked about progress stoppers all the time, and they don't want to have anyone that's gonna be if it's the same, and then definitely not making the same You want to get these guys on the field, but they they would I mean, they talk so much about saving money against the cap. It would be their dream to be able to shed some of that veteran salary. And I talk out of this side of my mouth, and I think

you start cutting your depth at cornerback. And then he ended up signing the Richard Robinson from you know at the end of the season, and the Chris Westy's who's still in the league playing well. But but you signed the starting I've seen you. Yeah, but you signed this guy for Baltimore. They had no one else. Yeah, So you know, cutting cutting depth at cornerback's kind of trade. Yeah, that's one position where I'm like, I can't have enough. Yeah,

keep You're right about the people. I want to keep those guys here, all right, screw that, don't make that trade. But because he'll get on the field, Nahan right, will get on the field. Think you could if right, if Kelvin and or Wright was good enough, you could deal one of those vets. I don't think it would be smart to get rid of both of them. I mean and Kelvin Joseph and you know, Jordan Lewis and Anthony Brown. I mean that's one, two three on the roster right there.

They all change numbers. Yeah, what two three? What all the numbers that are saying? I know, oh time for this there? Those are the those are the significant ones. Kelvin Joseph is one, Jordan Lewis's two, Anthony Brown is three, DAK is still for Dak's still four. Yeah, I mean Chauncey Galston's ninety nine. Now, Fowler's gonna wear fifty six, which he's worn for most of them. For Washington eighty three, I believe, so eighty three eighty okay, yeah, um, and

mcquama went to twenty four. Yeah, but from what I hear, it might not last very long. Hooker, Yeah, Hooker might want to that's that's gonna change again, I feel so. I'm telling about the receiver though, that they draft. There's dude, there's only like there's one number available for what now and it's Ninember nine. But see that's but like they'll they'll make t J. Vasher move or something if they want to that's I love the new number rule because it's fun and guys get to wear what they want

to wear. But I feel sorry for Mike, like no, no, and Jordan Lewis, how many times is it gonna change numbers? It's like, is it three times already? I was kind of surprised by that because I believe twenty six was his college number, So it's weird to see a guy get out of his college number and into something new. But what the single did just do? Look cooler? They do, not admit than they do six. It's it's a cooler looking. I'd keep a couple open though, just for the draft. Yeah,

but like you never know. Before this rule, the equipment guys really only had to worry about this, Like around draft time. It's like, okay, we drafted this guy. We got to rearrange this. Now from like February to June, it's like, hey, Mike, Mike, how do I get into how do I get the It's like, oh my god, dude, leave me alone. I got enough stuff going on. All right. We appreciate you, guys, Jonas. We'll be back next week.

At least these three guys will be back. They'll I'm sure we'll be getting you guys ready from draft until then for Nick, even Dave helm At amber Garci'm Derek Eagelton. This has been to break live on Dallas Cowboys dot Com Radio. This has been a production of Dallas Cowboys dot Com and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club