9. No Harm Will Come to You

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Good food, good friends, and those cozy moments. This season seems to be Proof spirits. molecule for that festive kick. Celebrate freely with the Visit RK Bevery. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. You're about to listen to a brand new episode of Steak Knife, the new series of cover.

Episodes are released weekly, wherever you get your podcast, but if you're in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes, right now, first on BBC Sounds. This episode contains interviews that some listeners may find upsetting, occasional strong language, and some distressing scenes. Episode nine No Harm Will Come To You

It's 1993. A nine-year-old girl is roller skating around the streets of West Belfast. The roller skating in it, I don't remember at the time, but I got an awful lot of slagging. It's more walking than skating, walking on wings. The nine-year-old is being filmed for a German documentary on the troubles.

My name is Shauna Morland. I live in 60 World Beach Mike Group Belfast. Me is his name. The little girl is Shauna Moreland. A child growing up just off the Falls Road at the height of the troubles. It was called Friend the Kinder or Distant Children directed by an American filmmaker called Brenda Parkerson. I can't remember the whole documentary now I haven't watched it in years. This is Shana Moreland, thirty one years later.

She had just been sent over by her producer to whatever to find the kid to do it. So when they took the photos, apparently they're like my foot my picture. The next thing I knew I was doing it. Carefree. Shona roller skates around West Belfast. Despite the war and the unrest, Shauna seems a happy child. Baby take out a tough one. We then meet her mother, Caroline, a woman in her early thirties with wild red hair. She really enjoyed she really enjoyed the kids. She loved us and you knew it.

The house was always just it was always just fellow laughter and fun. Caroline Moreland talks here about her own experiences at the start of the troubles, when she herself was just a child. So I was nine, so I was Sean's age. when it started. Really big here. And we were made aware of it all of a sudden. So we had sort of relatively nine years peaceful li life and then all of a sudden

In the documentary you see quite a lot of Shauna's mum. At the time of the filming, Carline Moreland had separated and was a single mother of three. There's no mention of Freddy's cappuccci or steak knife. That will come later. Much later. I don't remember peacetime, there was always trouble always sorted on the street.

But d I mean, to us it wasn't alien, it was a way of life, you know. I mean we didn't know no better. In saying that it was a happy childhood, I mean we still did a lot of things that children do. Um, it's more dangerous now. We see different aspects of Shauna's life as a nine year old. We see her playing with her dog, playing with friends. And in this scene, it's nighttime and she's on her bed, lying on her stomach, head resting on the palms of her hands, watching and singing.

Not a one At one stage in the documentary, Shauna talks about what it's like being a child growing up during the trouble. Bombings and shooting of people down can be scary. Well especially at Halloween because you hear all bangers and all. And sometimes you think it's just bangers and sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's bangers. Sometimes it's not. Can be shooting in some time. Your family can get put dead.

Shana says sometimes your family could get shot dead. She then says she thinks Belfast is more dangerous than other places, but that she has no choice but to live there. She just hopes no one in her family gets shot. I think Belfast is the worst. I don't like laughing hair, but I have no other choice. I just hope no one in my family gets shot.

Caroline Moorland had been missing from her home at Beachmind Grove in West Belfast for two weeks. The 34-year-old victim was married with three children. Her body was found on a pathway yards from the Monohan border. The IRA claimed she'd been working as an informer for the police for two years. There were like twelve messages on the phone number and all that sort of. No, I did already told him all the F. Oh okay good. It's the life of a head chef.

Roof over there you can just see the yellow fizz and the orange fizzes. The high fizz fair signal. I meet Shona Morland in a hotel overlooking Belfast. The skyline stretches across the city and you can see everywhere from here. Belfast is a vibrant modern city. A city that seems like it's figuring out what its future is going to look like, not defined by its past. But it's also a society trying to reconcile the truth about what did happen in the past.

Operation Canova, the investigation into the agent known as Staknife that we mentioned in our last episode, is one route to understanding that. And Shauna Moreland is a figure that was crucial in Operation Canova's establishment. Right, we crack on. Yep. When Shona was in that German documentary, Belfast was a very different city. In a lot of the shots of children playing, you can clearly hear the army helicopter hovering overhead.

Was three years after the Sandy Lynch arrests. Danny Morrison was in jail. Freddie Scapatici had returned to Belfast. And we'll get to Freddie Scapatici later in this episode. But for the moment I want to talk about Shona and her life at that time with her mother. We are asking all people to provide the support and the arms to be selected. Thank you.

It was also the beginning, the first steps of the peace process. A car rides around West Belfast asking people to come out in support of a peace initiative by attending a rally.

While all this was happening, Shauna lived in Beachmount Grove, West Belfast, with her mother Caroline and her two brothers. But you describe to me your mum as as you remember her. Chris? Chris. I mean, um Caroline was 32 at the time of filming. While Shauna's only nine, she's not oblivious to the war that's happening all around her. Her mom asks here what happens when there's troubles. What happens when there's troubles? People get held. Thank you. Bye, people.

At one stage in filming, you can even hear gunfire. Despite everything happening. Shauna says she always felt safe with her mother. Whatever was going on in the outside world it wasn't touching us. We were we were okay in there with her. That was the security that she gave. But that that was the security that came from her, that was the security she gave it in the house. Inshaama. Hey what? She goes. No way. Inshawa. Hey what?

Caroline talks to the filmmakers about how women in West Belfast get involved with power military. growing up I mean in this situation d to get involved in paramilitary paramilitaries or any other sort of organisation like that, I think the risk is equal for boys and guards concerned. Most people seem to think it's a big boch macho thing. I think probably the women of Belfast are underestimated, or the women of N Northern Ireland. Um Which probably makes him the more dangerous weapon.

Caroline Moreland wasn't an IRA member. Her daughter says her mother was an IRA supporter. She was a single mother in West Belfast. If certain people were asking her to do things, she would have done them. Apparently there was meetings and stuff held in my house.

I can never remember being strange men sitting in my house having meetings. You know, I I have no recollection of this. Any of the people that room my house were my uncles, aunts, you know, it was family, it was friends, it was there wasn't anybody. I never walked down the stores one night. out of bed and there'd been a group of you know w it just wasn't I must say it didn't happen, but if it did we we were very well protected from it.

In her interview, Caroline Moreland talks about a turning point, something that happened to her. Something that would change her life. It's ten to four in the morning and they came to the house. Um the RUC came and robbed the side of it. And proceeded to search the house. And they on two plain clothes. Detectives came and confirmed I was, how I said I was, asked me, was I sure?

Yes. And they said they were arresting me under the Special Powers Act. I think it was twelve and sixteen, I'm not sure of the numbers. I asked them to explain and they told me I was being arrested on suspicion of P no arrested on possession of explosives. suspicion of causing explosions in Belfast, the greater Belfast and Lisburn areas. Caroline is brought to Castleray police station. Shana never knew anything about it.

I must have arrived there. By the time they searched the house and all I must have been in Castleway for about six o'clock. And I was brought straight into um an interview. What they call an interview room, it's really an interrogation room and that's where you're questioned and Um they kept me there for seven days. The noise you hear in the background is Shona sitting in her mother's lap. Um no one can get in to see you. It's like being in prison.

Shauna looks up suddenly when her mother mentions the word prison. You're kept in a cell with just a bed which is chained to the ground and a chair which is chained to the ground. There's no windows. No one knows for sure what exactly happened to Caroline Moreland when she was in. Castle Ray for seven days? I was being interviewed nonstop with five and ten minutes of a break just. The R interviews was the shortest I had ever got with a five minute break in between.

The only thing we are certain of is Caroline Moreland, a single mother of three, was vulnerable. Any charge, any sentence, she would lose her children. There was quite a lot of things. on, abuse spent on. Um, they would slap me about. The women were just as abusive as the men, if not more so. And this is how Caroline says her time in Castlere ended after seven days. I had actually seen one of the interviewers watches at one stage and I knew it was after six o'clock.

S yeah sort of s tried to work out it was the seventh day. Um I went into the doctor and he just said to me, Will you sign this before you go?

From the moment she left Castlerey, suspicion hung over Caroline Moreland. Two years passed, two years where the documentary crew visited and Caroline was interviewed. Despite the peace process developing momentum and a matter of weeks from the first IRA ceasefire in July 1994, Caroline disappeared. But I remember she was in the house and she told me she was going on a bus trip. Um, so she told me she was going on that and I was gonna stay with McGurney.

I was walking over and the dog, our big doopy dog, Juke, was following me. So it turned to bring him back down home. And my mummy was in the kitchen at this point, Iron and And I remember just saying I love her true goodbye and stuff, but there was something in me, and I had never ever because I loved going to McGrannies, but there was something that just wanted me to tell her not to go and ask her to stay. And that was the last I ever seen her. For 15 days, Caroline Moreland just disappeared.

There are reports that shots were heard hours before the body was discovered. The security forces spent the day searching for booby trap devices. Caroline Moreland's body was discovered laid across the border in Rosley, County Fermanagh. These people who talk to us about peace with justice, they take this woman away, they interrogate her. God knows how much she suffered under their so-called interrogation and they end up shoot her like an animal.

Her body lay there for thirteen hours as police check for booby traps. We do not know if her judges were also her executioners. For the murder was a heinous crime which cannot be condoned and must be condemned. As her coffin was carried away for burial, many questions remain unanswered about Caroline Moreland's life and death.

Shona was only ten when her mother was murdered. Their justice is the justice of the bullet in the back of the head and the body lying on the border and three young children today joining the many other children in this land without one or two parents. But for a long time I blamed I blamed myself for doing that on why she was killed.

For some yeah, for some reason. I th I think just because I was a young kid and I didn't understand everything, I thought because I had done a programme about the troubles that killed my mummy because of it. Everything changed after the murder of her mother. She never stayed another night in her house in Beachman Grove. Just everything at that stage in my life was just revolved around her. I mean, when my mummy died, the only thing in my life that stayed.

And the only reason the GP said the same was because um was w that he worked out of two surgeries and one of them's just across from my daddy's house. So that was the only reason that that that didn't have to change. E everything uplifted? Shana moved from West Belfast to North Belfast to live with her father. Her whole life was gone.

I I also used to have myself convinced. I remember I used to sit in school and just be like, I'm just gonna go in and wake up and go and tell my mummy about this and she's gonna tell me stop being so stupid and go get ready. You know, I tried to convince myself for years that I was just dreaming. This was all just a dream, and I remember some nights crying and asking God to give me back my mommy but But I think it it just that's just the child trend you understand.

I mean I think I think as we got older there's different things have affected us that are not being here. You know, um for me it was going chanting from my first bra, my first period, the you know, g guard stuff. Didn't know how another four. Had one in a bra for years.

You know. Um, not these be stupid face tops and these be thing bras, I wanted a real one. The class and all at the back. So I just remember being excited about it, but I remember going home and when I was putting it on it it just I cried.

It would be eight years till Shauna found out what happened to her mother. I was told it was a mistake in the dent today. We weren't told the whole truth and stuff, I was so young. But I have said it before, um I was very lucky or stupid or naive. Um that I never felt the stigma of my mummy being a tutor or an informant or whatever the the one of the labourer is. I never felt that stigma.

For eight years, Shauna, living in a different part of the city, believed her mother had been murdered in a case of mistaken identity. Now at the start of her own career, she had a job working in the kitchen of a restaurant. So I was in work. um and a friend that God was friends with at the time. She came in and she was like, You alright? So I was working on my channel, You alright? And I went, yes?

And she just kept going on and on and I was like, why do you keep asking me, Am I alright? For doing my hair, then. I was like, no, because I seen the paper today and I'm just like, why what was in the paper? Dream I took the newspaper down and I read it. And

And I just remember, jeg var in der inbecken kitchen cutting potato or sådan, but jeg havde dem i mig hand and I was slicing the hand of myself, but it wasn't even feeding it and the tears were running down my eyes. Og jeg went down into the toilet and I locked myself in the toilet for two hours.

the restaurant opened at five and the manager was in going, Seanny you need to come out. The restaurant's opening, we need you out, what is going on? And at that stage just I think she had told people, you know what was And at that stage I couldn't even talk. And the next day I went down to the newspaper library. And I got I found every article that I could find from 1994. It was the worst thing I cut it on the scene and we just went to the case.

the the field and stuff and um It was horrible, like it really was. Shauna learned about the body left on the border. The bullet in the back of the head. She learned her mother was accused of being an informer. It's edict never it's because it's not It's not who she was to me. But it's not who she was. It might have been something she'd done, but it's not who she was. It's just illegal people put on her to justify her murder.

She also learned something else. There was something left behind from those 15 days that she disappeared. The first time I had heard her voice was the confession tape that the IRA had given to the family when my sister had it. And when they let me listen to it, I I didn't know her voice. And that was really, really hard for me.

Before Caroline Moreland was executed by the IRA, she made a confession tape. Just like Joe Fenton, Michael Carney, Kevin Coyle, and so many others. The IRA gave the tape to the Moreland family. It was harder than what I was hearing or say because I didn't know her voice so it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't real to me, it didn't affect me in that in that way. Shauna listened to the confession tape of her own mother. Her name Moran about three children. Um at the beginning of the tape.

Caroline introduces herself and says she's a mother of three. Um I haven't voted to make mistrait. Um I haven't been mounted mounted mistreated. Caroline was held for fifteen days. We don't know what day the confession tape was recorded or the full extent of the pressure she was under. I've been able to wash and aid and sleep. Okay. Um and make an SML for you all. Caroline says after being arrested by RUC Special Branch.

was put under a lot of pressure but still denied him. Then on the fourth or fifth day, I think it was of detention, I was taken out and fingerprinted and brought up and left into the cell. On the fourth or fifth day, she was taken out for fingerprints. Then I was taken out into the interview room again and they said that my fingerprints matched a bomb in a bar at the law courts and they knew that I did this and that I was going to be charged with the three bombs.

They told her she was going to be charged and she was facing a 25-year sentence. And that we children would be taken off being put into repairs of Caroline was told her children were going to be taken off her and put into the care system. That was at this point that I agree to work from. At this point, I agreed to work for them. At one stage, you can hear the tape recorder being switched on and off. I've been working as a civilian with the IA for roughly ten years now.

Um I broke roughly about eight eighteen months, year and a half to eighteen months ago. And I've been meeting these people once a week. some never any longer than once a fortnight. And the payments would usually be fifty pounds. The leg of Christmas time they'll give you a hundred and on one occasion it'll got two hundred. Caroline talks about the information she passes on to Special Branch. It's clear as she talks, it's all very low-grade intelligence.

The kind of information you would associate with somebody who's not an IRA member? Um, the type of information that I asked on will be when the power was when my house I was asked. to go and get keys of a van at the leisure centre. But when I went up there was a load of soldiers and stuff about so people didn't weigh in with them. Caroline says she wants to add that she regrets getting caught up with these people.

Um, I'd like to add to this that I really rebuck it and cotton with these people. Um, I really regret what I've done. I regret what I've done. I wish I hadn't. I wish that I had of been caught sooner. But I really would advise anybody else that's in this situation to come forward and tell. Caroline says she would advise anyone in this situation to come forward and tell.

And not to listen to the things that they tell you, the fear that put in me about what's gonna happen to you, just come forward and tell what you're doing. No harm will come to you and you'll be helped. No harm will come to you. You'll be helped. The tape then ends. For the first time as an adult, Shauna had heard her mother's voice.

But the start of that tape was her saying her name, which was Carline Moreland, and a mother of three. So I used to just loop that bit over and over again. Just the start of it. Just rewind the play. Mm-hmm. And w wh where would you be doing that? Is that is it is it uh w did you have it on a uh No, it just had the cassette. The cassette. Well bet they and uh the So just used to keep rewriting it on that.

Shana decided she needed to learn more about her mother's death. Like Seamus Carney and many others, she started investigating what happened. She started asking questions. When I first started this the the the thing that I wanted was um was the investigation. That's all I wanted. I was always just focused on getting an investigation because it was just for me it was just someone to stand up and say, um, it she mattered, her life mattered.

So just because somebody labelled her an informer doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve an investigation. Shona began her own investigation. She took the first steps on a campaign that would eventually lead her to the truth about who killed her mother. So that's cabin monters. And he told me he'd be interested and he could do it and I spoke for about ten, five, ten minutes on the phone and before he hung up, he said, Sean, I just want to make you aware that I was your mummy's solicitor.

So I didn't go looking anywhere else, I didn't go, that was it for me. I think I kinda took that as a sign from my mummy that, yeah, go, you're doing the right thing here.

Around this stage, a name began appearing in the public over and over. People were talking about informers being sacrificed over many years to protect a high-level double agent. A man connected to the IRA Internal Security Unit called Freddie Scapatici. Some families privately came together, their cases all linked to the agent's stake knife. Because when I first went to Slister's I hadn't named nothin, absolutely nothing.

Um, I think it just came along the the time of whatever investigation the solicitor whatever they were doing. I think it just were different people coming in and speaking his name was put in the mix. The confession tape, the body left on the border, all hallmarks of stake knife, and a single eyewitness alleged a further connection. So he was seen with your mum or seen leaving the house? Yeah, so someone no, someone said that they were brought up for a debrief.

in a house in St. James's and my mummy was in the house when Freddie Scappettucci was there. And the next thing I knew was that he was the one we were looking for. So that I think that was when I first um I think that was when the steak knife or Scapati first come known to me then I think.

Shauna decided to do what few people had ever done previously in Northern Ireland, to come forward publicly as a family member of an alleged informer, and to tell the story of her loved one. And Shauna wasn't only asking questions of the IRA, but also those who were running agents. Because I've always taken the stance that the state are as much to blame us as the Republicans, as the IRA. They made the bullet and the IRA fired for them.

I didn't lose an inform, I lost my mother. Oh that's all she was to me, was Carly Morland. She was my safe place. At ten years old I lost my safe place, it disappeared. Um I was so nervous gonna do that it was I felt just So out of place and that I shouldn't be there because everybody was there, their their loved ones were innocent. They were all innocent. But there I was sitting there whose mummy was a accused informer, accused tout.

Did I really deserve to sit on a palm were Kate and Janet. Their family were innocent. I can't say the same about my mummy. Was my mummy connected in some way to the IRA? Was she an informer? Did she give information? I can't a hundred percent say no. Then the Moore thought about it Dare themselves claimed that my mother's only offence was her feet the dumping ground and one rifle.

Um they claimed that no one was hurt, injured, or arrested or murdered by any information that she gave, so she wasn't a victim maker. She was indeed a victim. She was used in a vulnerable position in her life. In twenty fifteen, Shauna became a prominent voice asking questions about the role of Freddie Scapici, looking for answers. Fredy Skapaticki still hasn't been brought in for questioning. They announced that almost 6 months ago Fredy Skapaticki still hasn't been brought in for questioning.

Um to say he's not a protected species. The media can't print an image of spread, Freddie Scrap C past 2004. We don't know where he is. We know he's in the UK, but we don't know where. There were media appearances on TV and radio. She was my mummy. She wasn't Carline Moreland, the IRA informant, she was Carline Morland my mummy. No matter what goes on or what goes through, I will not let anybody change my views on that.

There were many newspaper features and talks and conferences where Shauna told her mother's story. In my eyes very much, the state made the bullet and the IRA part of it. They're both equally to blame on my mother's death. Along with some other families, Shauna was instrumental in lobbying for the formation of the Canover Inquiry into the activities of the agent's take knife, which would become one of the biggest police inquiries in British history.

And eventually, after so much campaigning, Shauna would get answers. New Year, New V. Warmth of a drink, that smooth little kick. Also, want to wake up tomorrow feeling amazing. That's where R. K comes in. RK is the world's first. Burn of whiskey or Start to your strong. So you can celebrate. Keep your resolutions on track. Zero Proof Resolution at RKBeverages.com.

Caroline Moreland was the last alleged IRA informer killed during the Troubles. And only the third woman ever to be killed as an alleged informer, after Catherine Mahan in 1985 and Jean McConville in 1972. Caroline was killed within weeks of the IRA ceasefire in 1994. In the German documentary, there's footage of Caroline and Shauna attending a rally for peace. Mother and daughter with banners marching alongside each other. Which banner would peace or more than that?

Caroline would never see peace in the world. For a lot of our adult life. Shauna will be campaigning to find out what happened to her mother. Just before the ceasefire. Why did she miss out on a life of peace? So I was nine, so I was Shauna's age. When it started. Really big.

And we were made aware of it all of a sudden. So we had sort of relatively nine years peaceful life and then all of a sudden After years of keeping her mother's story alive, Shona would eventually meet the Canova Inquiry Team and learn the details of her mother's murder. The timeline that I know is um she was took from her house in Beachmount. She was held in a house overnight in St James's.

Miss Belfast, then she was transported in the bit of a car across the border. She was hailed in a caravan. Shona would learn that three people were involved in the abduction of her mother. One was a female, a friend of Carline's who she trusted and played a key role in her disappearance. I had to leave the room, which I've never done in any of the meetings. Um because when he told me who had took her, I knew I knew one of them.

it was one of her friends and I knew I knew them. I was I went down to their house and stuff. So that was really hard. Are you able to express what was going through your mind when you found that information out? Betrayal, I think, would have been the I think I betrayal the the m the my mummy or friendship, the my mummy. Um a betrayal than me because I went down and out of her home. She's seen me on a regular basis, she's seen me interact with my mum and my.

And just unbelievable hurt and sadness. When she took your mum away, was she doing it alone or was it with somebody else? Two other people. Another person in the abduction, a male, was described as an associate of Carline's. One of them loaded in the area but I can't remember I can't remember him. Um my brothers do. I can't. Funny though my brothers remember him but don't remember her. But I remember her and don't remember him. Um, but my mummy knew them. My mummy knew all three of them.

Another male, the person who shot Caroline, is now dead. So they didn't give me the name yet of that person? Right. But he is dead. Yeah. But it's just I j I really just don't know. I I don't know how I feel about it. I don't know Caroline was held for 15 days. One of the reasons she was held for so long was that IRA member, after IRA member, refused to execute the single mother of three. Why murder her, they said, so close to a ceasefire?

I felt it felt as if the only way I could describe it was as if I was at a wick for weeks. It was heavy. Well, that's the only way I can describe it because it just felt very heavy. And Shona, as someone who was so connected to the Canova Inquiry, would learn something that surprised her. Freddie Scabatici was not involved in her mother's death.

And I don't think it was just before Christmas. That told me that he had nothing to do with it. So Canova then had to get permission to keep investigating my mummy's murder. What's the dead, thankfully? It was who just saw it? Ironically it's not from the do-room. Freddy Scapatici, as we know, after the Sandy Lynch arrests, had been stood down from IRA activity. By the time Caroline and Shauna are marching in this footage, Freddy Scapatici is no longer in the internal security unit.

But the only thing is, the campaigning and things were done, you know, it wasn't just me done it, there was many other families and that done it too, but it got the investigation into state life and get other people answers as well. Ultimately that's what you want, as many people who can get answers as possible. Despite the fact that Stake Knife had been connected to her mother's death for years in the media.

Despite believing that Scapatici was involved and finding out something entirely different, Shauna says Operation Canova still provided her with the answers she was looking for. Did you feel anything at all about it not being scapatecci or not being steak knife?

almost every time he's in the media, she's in the media. And I really thought that that really annoyed me at the start and it really got to me because it wasn't really that it was well it was annoying me because they kept putting her image beside him, but it was annoying me in the aspect of There was fifty plus other families out there. There's fifty plus other people dead because of him. And they weren't getting this media cover.

Shana Moreland was the first family member of an alleged informer to speak to me about what happened to their loved ones for this series. So many others were worried about the consequences. But since our first episode was released, Those other families that Shauna mentioned began contacting us. the biggest part of the battle of me.

reaching out is because you feel so alone and then listening to the coils it I think Yeah, that that one broke me and it just struck me that that there are people like me around out there and you know that the shame of being an informer's daughter, um, there's other people like me. Contacting us to speak for the first time. We as a family from the very start. have never been public.

We were always a kind of family. Still are, it's this is our business, not yours. Which is why even me doing this with you It's kinda it's me, it's our whole family stepping out of the comfort zone. But I feel we as a family are at the point where We kept quiet enough. Here's the truth. Byddwn ni'n ei wneud, byddwn ni'n ei wneud, byddwn ni'n ei wneud. Byddwn ni'n ei wneud, byddwn ni'n ei wneud, byddwn ni'n ei wneud.

I realised that it was because my dad had done something big and We We were never gonna go back to what was home and see anybody else. And people contacting us to say Freddy Scapatici was involved in the murders of their family members. Okay. Yeah, when you're ready. I wrote Hello Mark, having listened to episodes on your investigation into Steak Knife, I want to let you know about my brother Eugene Simons, disappeared in nineteen eighty one.

and recovered by accident in nineteen eighty four. Having listened to Seamus, my brother Eugene's path to his murder has so many similarities, Including stake knife letting his handlers know that Yujin was to be executed and the security forces did nothing to stop it. Well I'll never freely be able to be free. And that's a real struggle. Imagine living your whole life and never being able to be to be ye. But I wouldn't feel comfortable.

Go in right over there. It's not safe to do so and I've been told that to this day, you know. You've been told that he's still in danger? Yeah. We should be given lots of opportunity as a family members to speak because everybody else gets to speak. But we're all quiet because we're afraid or there's just that sense of can I speak? Are there gonna be any repercussions for speaking?

And as I said to you, I just got to the stage I thought listening to the people that you've spoken to, I thought, Well if they can speak, I can speak too. And just deal with the consequences, but I'm not gonna be quiet anymore. People need to know that people let us down the whole way through. And even now we're we're we we will be let down again.

To the best of your knowledge, was Freddie Scabatiti was the one named. Was it in relation to the direct murder of your father or was it The murder of my father?

If you've been affected by any of the issues in this series, please contact support organisations in your own country. If you've been affected by the troubles, details of organisations offering information and support are available at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. Episode 10 will feature people who've come forward since the start of this series. We're currently still producing and editing the episode in real time.

But you can still contact the programmakers at cover at bbc.co.uk if you've any information that you'd like to share. That email again is cover at bbc.co.uk. And that final episode, episode ten, will be available on Friday, January 31st. In the meantime, if you're enjoying this podcast, please do check out our previous series, Where is George Gibney, which is a case that continues to evolve and a story that I think is really worth your time.

Steakknife is written and produced by me, Mark Horgan, and Kieran Cassidy. Editing and sound design is also by Kieran Cassidy. It's co-produced by Paddy Fee, our composer is Michael Fleming, sound mixing is by Jerry MacDonald, and our theme tune is by Lancombe.

Assistant Commissioners for the BBC are Lorraine Okafuna and Sarah Green, and the commissioning editor for the BBC is Dylan Haskins. Steakknife is a second captain's and little wing production for BBC Sounds, and I'll talk to you all next week. In the shadows of Glasgow, two crime for To power. You're either with the Daniel family or you're with the Lyons family. There's no in-between. A brutal war for control of Glasgow's lucrative drug trade that still rages today. Police think it's the worst.

Join me, Livy Haydock, as I investigate. They just slashed fireballs. Vanalyzing people, whatever they want. That's almost of biblical scale. Sure of the Daniels and the L. Listen on BBC Sounds.