9. Her Voice is Coming

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Let me just test this here. I hope I can remember everything. This is Lorraine. When making this series, she was the very first survivor I sat down and spoke to. It's just us chatting normally. And you... At any time, you're totally in control of itself. Lorraine Kennedy is one of the original survivors who brought the case against George Gibney back in 1993. She's also Chalky White's sister. She's here with her husband, Noel.

A keen gardener. You know, I'm just thinking, I want to see if that noise comes through a little bit too much in the headphones. Come in, I'll tell you. Because I like it. A little bit of background noise is good. Will you stop doing that? Yeah, he's recording. Sorry about that. Don't be silly. I didn't even hear it. See you in a bit. So, Louise, can you pop this on?

Just like I have like that. Yeah. When you're ready. This is Louise Kennedy, Lorraine's daughter. Let me just test this out. I'll give you some headphones as well. This is a clip of just nothing. It's just of me going into the house. But I thought you might want to hear it because it was kind of lovely, I thought. This will be her at her best, isn't it? Yeah, it was just like arse and round.

Oh, I should say, there was a big rigmarole when I went in the first time. I was, like, parking out the road. Oh, yeah. And she was like, will you come and park the car inside? The first time. She's like, what are you doing, Park? So the second time I just drove in and parked in there. I didn't even ask permission this time. I just drove straight in. Is that all right? You'd be the worst fool of y'all. How you doing? Yeah, flying, not a bother. Nice to see you. You too. Ah, lovely.

Great stuff. Oh, you got a nice little bit of sun in here, don't you? Yeah, it's lovely. Very nice. How are the knees? Yeah. I can hear the crutches. How you doing? I didn't even spot you there. Oh, that just sums them up completely. That was her spot in the house, in the kitchen. That's her, is and always was her spot. Lorraine Kennedy passed away during the making of this series. She was just 62 when she died of lung cancer. She never got to see George Gibney stand trial.

At the moment, listening to this and being part of it is a piece of her that we still have. And as much as I want to hear her and don't want to hear her, when it's over, it's over. But I'm so glad you got to talk to her. I'm just sorry she's not here to hear it. Because she wanted to tell it. It's been hard, first of all, because I know what's coming. I know her voice is coming on it. I've just heard her voice, but I know her voice is coming.

I apologise for how loud this kettle is, but if you've met my mum, you'll know exactly. I'm with Louise in her apartment. We're chatting about her late mum, Lorraine, and watching old videos on her phone. It's brilliant. It's the laugh at the start. Yeah, play that laugh again. That's her laugh. That's exactly it. I didn't even ask permission this time. I just drove straight in. Is that all right?

You'd be the worst fool of Jan. How are you doing? I first met Lorraine over two years ago. It was the starting point of the series and she welcomed me into her home straight away. And I always remember having a conversation with a very good friend of mine saying, everybody has something deep down that they'll take to their grave. And she said to Susan, I go, she said to me, no, that's ridiculous. No, you should never.

And I said, well, I have something that I will never, ever, ever tell. And I guarantee it. So I wouldn't have. If it hadn't come out, I wouldn't have said, you know.

The Guinness swimming pool in Dublin City is distinctive. It's a beautiful old pool with a gallery on each side. It was built in 1960 for employees of the brewery and their families. I went a couple of years ago. But when this all came out, I said to myself, I have to go back down, I have to go back down. So I went down anyway. I was abused. As you go in, before you go into the swimming pool, there's a gymnasium and a squash court. And as you go in there, you go up the stairs and...

there was a balcony you could look over to the squash. And he used to tell me to go over there. And my memory was, you know, my head up against the thing. And so I thought the thing was really high. This is the balcony. The balcony. And I couldn't get over how low it actually was. Now, I tell you, he must have always known because there was never anybody there. But the smell of a squash court, I cannot. There's a very distinct smell. It's like a sweaty type of smell.

Lorraine was a swimmer with the Guinness Club, just like her brother Chalky. At that point in the mid to late 60s, George Gibney was a young coach there. It was the first club he coached in. I'm not 100% certain. I know I was actually, when we started swimming, now it depends, was it six or eight? I think it was six. So... I would say if it was six, then I would have been about eight. Eight or nine. He spotted, like...

There was something in me that he knew I wouldn't tell. But why he targeted me, I think because I was, I obviously was quiet. And... Done what I was told. You know, I wouldn't have been able to articulate it to anybody. As we talked, Lorraine recounted a particularly dark experience. One day after swimming. her father was giving George Gibney a lift home. She was just ten years old when she sat in the back seat with Gibney as her father drove. My dad was dropping him home. And...

I was in the back of the car. But I think I had a funny feeling I was sitting on his lap. But he would just put his hand over and put his hand into my pants. And when I was getting out of the car, he just went. Still see him. In other words, don't open your mouth. That was the only time he ever told me not to tell. You put his finger up to his nail? Yeah, just went, shh. Would give me have been talking to your dad at that time, because...

I would almost think he would have to be still conversing with your dad. I can't remember. Yeah. I can't for you to remember. No, I know I won't remember. I wouldn't be able to remember because I do know my mind was kind of blank. Just blank. I remember not thinking of anything. But why I remember him doing that when I was getting out of the car, that stayed with me to this day. And I can still see his face, those glass.

Just George Gibney glasses. And his beard and his moustache. It was always a real tight beard and moustache. You know, I wouldn't have been able to articulate it to anybody. And I honestly believed I would take it to my grave. If it hadn't come out, I wouldn't have said.

She spoke to me about an incident that had happened with Gibney that was then written about in the papers. So it was in the 94 piece, you know, and then she spoke about this incident, which I thought was really interesting and that I haven't heard about it before. So have a listen. That was in the paper and I was talking to Swimmer. And they said, don't believe that. It was in Exeter. And he said, I don't believe George Gibney abused anybody. And I said, why do you say that? He said, come on.

Imagine somebody getting abuse in the back of their father's car. And I just turned around and said, you know, you're a fucking dick. I was that person. And he just went. And I just got up. It was actually a wedding. But he just, he said, don't be ridiculous. But nobody did believe, you know, there was an awful lot of people who didn't believe it. But there was an awful lot of people who didn't believe it. An awful lot.

They just thought it was, you know. This was after it came out in the papers and all the rest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's what you're up against, you know, at that stage. Because these people still... thought George Gibney was God. Sure, even when he went away, when he went to England, when it all came out, and they were saying it was disgraceful he was running out of the country.

She was such a genuine person. She's not, you know, not a liar, not a fibber. And I think that hurt her quite a lot. And I think it's probably the hardest part at the minute. is seeing people believe them now and the support that they've got. And, you know, there's people out there that have thrown all their support behind them and she's not here to see it or hear it.

And that's horrible. That's the one thing I regret for her. Because I know that the belief thing was a big deal to her because she was such a genuine person, you know, and people didn't believe her or any of them. And my heart breaks that she's... that she's not here to see it. I want to bring in Lorraine Kennedy first. Lorraine, good afternoon.

Good afternoon, Joe. Because I mentioned Chalky White there, who was a well-known Irish swimmer when I was growing up, and he was abused by who? By George Kitsney. And you tell us here you were abused as well. I was abused by George as well. Not for as long as Chalky was. And what age were you, can I ask Lorraine, when this coach, swimming coach, started? I was about nine years of age.

Lorraine was one of the first people to come forward about George Gibney's abuse. She was one of the first to go to the police. She agreed to talk to Johnny Watterson in the Sunday Tribune and signed an affidavit that she would testify in the case of libel action. But she never got to see George Gibney go to trial. And who did you confide in?

I didn't confide on anybody. When Chalky went to Gary, which would have been, but I mean, I've been very close to Chalky's wife and she was telling me that it all came out. And then I came out and said that I was abused as well. And at the time, I didn't know Chalky was abused or he didn't know I was abused.

You didn't know your brother was being abused. He didn't know his sister was being abused. And it was only when you were in your 30s that this came out. My gosh. My gosh. Like everybody knew everybody. But yet, nobody, you know, like Chalky thought he was the only one and I thought I was the only one. Though I think Barry thought, no, there was more. I think she did. For a long time, Lorraine never knew about the others. For a long time she thought she was alone.

Lorraine was the very first survivor I spoke to. It feels apt now. Since we talked, and as each episode was broadcast, more and more people have contacted us. As we ended episode seven, Five women had contacted us recalling incidents where George Gibney had sexually assaulted them as children, all of whom had never spoken before.

kind of gave me his cheek so I said okay thank you and I went to kiss his cheek and he turned he put his hands under my chin and he started to kiss me now like a french kiss but not a proper one because I didn't know how to do that but And then, of course, he called me over, asked could he have a look at it, put his fingers under the elastic, I remember, on the leg to check that the elastic was right with his fingers right up on my bum.

And we knew that this was wrong, but nobody actually really said anything. The adults never said anything about it. But I just remember being absolutely terrified. It seemed like a minute, but he was in the room for a long time. But he did go very quick when I started screaming at him. I went in to get flippers.

And the next thing, the lights went off and he grabbed me and went to kiss me. I remember him just walking in the door and the door closing and just getting such a fright when he closed the door. So many questions remain about the movements of George Gibney. One major question is about his time in Waterford in the southeast of Ireland. Chalky White mentioned it in a previous episode when Gibney suddenly disappeared.

I was just about to start the school in September, to make that move in September. And then all of a sudden, I heard he was gone. Nobody knew where he went. He just left Marion College. Didn't know anything about it. I was like, that's strange. What's happened here, yeah? And then we found out he went to Waterford. Gibney got a job as Bath's manager at the Waterford Crystal Swimming Club in the summer of 1971.

By 1972, the local newspaper reported that he was working miracles with his young swimmers. But unlike all the other clubs Gibney coached in, no victim from Watford had ever come forward. So little was known of his time there. oh, if you have been in any way affected, I'd say, oh God, will I, will I? And I'd say to my husband and he'd say, do whatever you feel you do. And then I'd say, oh no, I'll leave it.

So then I did write, at the third one, I wrote a long email and I'm like, this is too much information. And then I just abandoned it. Time went on and there was no mention of Watford. And the last podcast, I could tell most of the women talking were dubs. Yeah. And I knew they were mostly Glen Alban or Trojan. And there were so many, I couldn't get over it. And I was like, oh my God, his pattern is just exactly what happened in Waterford. And I said, God, there's nobody from Waterford, I wonder.

And then just last week, something hit me. Because I knew the podcast was coming out again in December. And just one particular day, I said, you know what, I'm going to do this. Hi, Mark. I've been listening to your amazing podcast about George Gibney. I swam under George from the age of 10 to 12 in Waterford Crystal Swimming Club.

I would say I'm a victim of his predatory ways. I'd be happy to talk to you. Regards, yeah. This is Fiona Bennett. She's the first person to ever come forward from George Gibney's time in Waterford.

His name gives me the heebie-jeebies. His name. When I heard his voice on the podcast, I jumped. I was like, oh, God. I found that difficult hearing his voice. I really, really did. Just that it brings back memories? Yeah, just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just a line on top of you and that voice. You know. Talk to me just first of all about how George Gibney came into your and your family's life. The Waterford Crystal Sports Club set up and they had a swimming pool and George was the first coach.

to be hired. And I suppose I just took a complete shine to the sport. I absolutely loved it. And he was encouraging, of course, very encouraging and thought I had potential. He was a friend of the family's. He used to come up for dinner. Actually, my sister recalled the other day that he used to be up for dinner quite a lot.

I think he was driving me home from swimming, or he was driving a few of us, and left me to last. And he was rubbing my leg. He said, sit in to the front, and he was rubbing my leg. But this is all very vague now. And then I remember him holding my face and kissing me. Sure, I didn't know what. Part of me was like, oh my God, he really likes me. You know, I was actually a little bit chuffed. Not scared. I wasn't scared, funny enough. At what age were you? Gee, Chris, I think I was 10.

Yeah. A baby. Oh, my God, a baby. In Waterford, it was mostly in the car. Daddy would touch me and kiss me. And then I moved from Waterford to Galway because my dad's job. And then I went, I was in Galway Swimming Club. But I still, I will be honest, I still... Did not think there was anything wrong. Which is terrible. Like, I'm disappointed in myself. But you're a little girl. I know. I know. Yeah.

And I never told anyone, anyone. My parents, nobody. He came to Galway, probably through Dad, and they had dinner in our house in Galway. And he actually came into my bedroom that night. And I remember vividly, I remember where my bedroom was. I was in my bed. And he came and he lay on top of me and kissed me. And that is when I thought, oh my God, this is, Jesus is what. So anyway, I still, of course, never said a word, never did anything, never, just, I don't know, just didn't do anything.

And then I'm like, here I am, 60 now, and your podcast comes out. And I would love to see him pay the price. And you know what? I've done it for my girls as well. because I was eight. If anything like that had ever happened to them, I'd kill the person. I would, I'd be up for murder. Anyway, listen, thank you for your time. It's lovely to meet you. Likewise. After our interview, Fiona and I talk in the car park. I actually can't believe he's still alive and getting away.

Because he doesn't deserve to be. He doesn't. When I think back at the fact that you were the first person from that club... now who's come forward to say this was happening in Waterford Crystal as well. How do you feel about the fact or the likelihood that other people could have been affected in Waterford? What's the likelihood of that?

in your own mind? I think it's highly likely. Highly likely. Absolutely, I wasn't the only one. I was 12 when I left Waterford, but I have no doubt about it, I wasn't the only one.

I wasn't the only one. For years, Lorraine thought she was the only one. And the question remains, how many other survivors are there? Also on the front page of the Irish Times, Johnny Watterson reports that swimming coach John Mullins has resigned from the board of Swim Ireland following an interview he gave to the BBC podcast series Where is George Gibney?

Now, where is George Gibney? It's a question many have been asking. We're going to talk about George Gibney now. We're going to spend some time now talking about the BBC podcast, Where is George Gibney? As more episodes of the podcast went to air, the series began receiving quite a lot of media coverage. Over the course of a few weeks, more and more people were getting in contact.

Hey Cass, do you have a second? Yeah. These two came in and they kind of came in together. Can I read them to you, these emails? Yeah. Hi Mark, I was a swimmer Trojan coached by Gibney when I was very young. He groped me and my older sister while giving us lifts to and from the swimming pool in the late 70s. One two, one two, one two, one two.

And the emails and calls and messages kept coming after episode 8. Hi Chris, how you doing? How's that sounding? We got phone calls from ex-swimmers, adults who weren't abused themselves but are still trying to make sense of the things they saw as children. There was one day that I particularly remember when we were in the pool. And two of the more senior girls were always very concerned about the young ones.

Suddenly, in the middle of a training session, one of them suddenly yelled out, George is in the girls' changing rooms again. And everyone stopped. It was one of those moments. you don't forget. I remember making my way over to see if she was checking in if she was okay and she was crying and being consoled by her friend and hugged. But I thought nothing of it.

I thought boy trouble or missing home as I was told at the time but retrospectively you know hindsight and over the years and what I know now because that image It hasn't haunted me, but it is, you know, as I said, I see things very clearly from years ago. And there's an incredible podcast on at the moment called Where Is George Gibney? The man in question.

George Gibney. In the series, Where Is George Gibney? That email address if people want to get in touch is whereisgeorgegibney at bbc.co.uk. It wasn't just a swimming pool. Old friends and old neighbours of George Gibney now contacted us. This one's a little bit longer. Thank you for your podcast and for still trying to track George Gibney. I'm not sure why we as kids don't raise the alarm. I didn't.

George and his family were our neighbours. I remember as kids. There were Spanish students who stayed there. Girls. My age. I was 13, maybe. George would be in the back garden, standing in his cold bunker on the other side of the wall. I don't know why, but I climbed the wall so he could tell me he loved me and squeeze me so hard that it hurt. I wish I could remember anything else. The meetings in the garden were regular.

So there's the swimming one. Oh, wow. Yeah. Is your mum there? That's my mum. Oh, God. Yeah. Louise and I look at some old photos. A beautiful old black and white print from the Guinness Swimming Club with the old tiles in the background. Her mum as a little girl is smiling in the front row in her swimsuit. Yeah. I wonder what year that was. What do you think? Yeah.

So I'd say she's probably... I don't even know how old she'd be in that. She looks... could be about kind of... I'd say maybe 10 or 11, which would have been... 66, 67 maybe? Yeah. It's taken around the time she was in the back of the car with Gibney as her father drove. A long time ago. Lorraine never got to see George Gibney go to trial. And because of that Supreme Court decision in 1993...

and a thing called the principle of legal certainty. Her case and the cases of the other complainants back then, like Trish and Burr, can almost certainly never be tried again. I don't think I could have, not to the extent that she did. She went through far too much and it's hard knowing how much she went through and not getting justice and not getting... Just not getting justice for it. I think she was dealt a really, really cruel blow at the end. It's just unfair, I think.

Like, obviously the fact that he's alive and out there and, you know, with no repercussions for what he did and she's not here, that makes me angry. I don't understand how it could... Wouldn't make you angry. But I think the truth of the matter is it's been so long. I can't see anything. I can't see him facing any.

charges or anything like that for what happened a long time ago. I can't see them getting justice for that. So I suppose the only thing we can hope for is that he's on the run for the rest of his life. Or that he faces charges for something else he's done, maybe. Are you ready to go now? Yeah. Okay, great. Right, well, listen, let's just start. Since our series began.

18 new people have come forward saying George Gibney sexually assaulted them as children. Serious allegations. Including two women from the same era who call from different sides of the globe.

I'll just show you about where she was standing. She didn't want to be seen. She was trying to be, she was trying to get herself together. She was about here and she was... standing up like this and she was just in the tears were rolling down her face and she was shaking and i approached her and i said are you okay and i put my hand on her on her shoulder here

And she jerked back and she couldn't talk. She couldn't talk. And I said, do you want me to wait? And she couldn't talk. And I was getting a lift and I had to go. And then you're saying you've thought about that subsequently. When the cases came out in the 90s, she was one of the first people that came to my mind. I always wondered. I always wondered.

How have you found the past three months and how have you been since the podcast came out? When I first heard the podcast, I literally stayed in my car in the driveway crying. It was so painful. Everything just came back in a rush. It still is painful, but not as painful. It has given me an opportunity, for instance, to talk to a family member to disclose what happened. It also drove home to me the point that...

Even though he tried to isolate us and make us feel this, or me feel, that I was partly or to blame for this, that I wasn't alone. One of the worst things about being a victim at the time is that you feel so alone. You're isolated. And so hearing Trish and Bear and other people talk about what happened, it just brought home the reality that I'm not the only one. Like everybody knew everybody. But yes, nobody, you know, like Chalky thought he was the only one and I thought I was the only one.

Though I think Barry thought, no, there was more. And all those tears, the anger coming out, being able to speak to a family member. Being able to speak to you, I mean, a total stranger, just sort of opened the floodgates.

Welcome to the programme. Today, the podcast Where is George Gibney leads to a Garda investigation into new allegations against the former swim coach. For a list of organisations in the UK that can provide support for survivors of sexual abuse, go to bbc.co.uk. forward slash action line. You can still contact us at whereisgeorgegibney at bbc.co.uk if you've any information you'd like to share. And you can find us on social at Second Captains.

Where Is George Gibney is a second Captain's production for BBC Sounds. The series is written and produced by me, Mark Horgan, and Ciarán Cassidy. It's co-produced with Maria Horgan, and editing is also by Ciarán Cassidy. Research and fact-checking is by Cillian Down. Our composer is Michael Fleming. And sound mixing is by Ger McDonnell. Our theme tune is by Aaron Desner. The executive producer for the BBC is Dylan Haskins.

And the commissioning editor is Jason Phipps. You'll be able to listen to episode 10, our final episode of Where is George Gibney, next Thursday, 10th of December. And you can subscribe as ever, wherever you are in the world. on the free BBC Sounds app. We had a great life. We did everything together. How did an American woman end up at the heart of the Islamic State group Caliphate and then make it back?

My story? Oh yeah, absolutely. It is very hard to believe. Sam Sally says she was tricked into taking her children. I feel sad that they would do that to a child. But was she? Anything I've ever done is only with the intention of something good to happen. I'm not a bad person. I'm not a monster. I'm not a monster. A new podcast series from BBC Panorama and Frontline PBS. Listen on the BBC Sounds app.

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