8. Talk

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This is the story of the one. As a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility, he knows keeping the line up and running is a top priority. That's why he chooses Grainger. Because when a drive belt gets damaged, Grainger makes it easy to find the exact specs for the replacement product he needs. And next day delivery helps ensure he'll have everything in place and running like clockwork. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

This podcast refers to child sexual abuse and contains interviews that some listeners may find upsetting, as well as some strong language right from the start.

Talk. Is that not them? That's fucking them, is it? No. It's the same car. No, that's not. No. Oh, it is. Is it? Yeah. Is it? Yeah. You're joking me. I'm not. It's the same colour. It's a Honda and it's a... You are kidding me. This red light's coming up now, so you're going to find out. After we saw George Gibney volunteering at the hospice, things suddenly got quiet. Very quiet. Hi. in there. No? For a couple of days, nothing happened. There was no movement. It was strange.

What lane they're going in? Yeah, it looks like they're going left. I don't think it is. Yeah, that's not them. Gibney never even left his house. We wondered if he was even there anymore. There was no sign of him. It was worrying because suddenly we were running out of time to talk to him. I think we just had a bit of bad luck today.

Yeah. Well, you know what? I know I'd agree totally. But I was thinking about the first day, you know, like where we were kind of, what's that there? No, it's, it's, it's, it's. Just before we'd lost sight of George Gibney, we'd finalised talks with the BBC on how best to approach him for an interview. We'd just been given the clearance to go ahead. The irony. It had been going on for weeks. It's a big housing community.

We want to talk to him to give him a letter asking for an interview, the right to reply. But there's a catch, and it's a big one. Yeah, yeah. US states have differing laws around privacy and recording. In Florida, it's illegal to simply doorstep somebody at their home. The law deems that the individual has a right to expect privacy in that situation.

Add to that Florida's liberal gun ownership laws and very clear self-defense laws when you're in your own residence, and we can't just go and knock on his door. So we have to wait until he's in a public place, on the street, in a public park, in a car park. But he hasn't left his house now in days. No, he's going to one church. You know, that'll be his church, which is across the way. But, you know, the thing is that...

George Gibney moves a lot. Since the High Court decision in Ireland, he's moved from place to place, usually when his past is identified. It's only a matter of time before he gets wind of our series, and when he does, he may well move again.

It's now our final full day before we fly home. And we haven't seen Gibney now in days. It feels strange as well. Coming to bed when it's dark and then getting up at night and it's still dark, you know? Yeah. We sit and we wait. Hour after hour. And has been helping couples sleep for over 18 years. It is... The number one selling anti-snoring medicine in the U.S. Number one. You saved my marriage. For the breaking news this morning, the FBI has arrested the president's political advisor.

After over 11 hours in the car... It's getting dark and it's not looking good. There's no sign of George Gibney. There's barely any traffic. First one after fucking night. Ten minutes, is it? Whoa. No. The same thing has happened for three days now. It's gutting. We start to think, does he know we're here? Has this neighbour who confronted us said something to him? Did somebody at the hospice spot us? Or are we being paranoid? We wonder, where is George Gibney?

How are you getting on there, Mark? I think you're struggling a bit, are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no opportunity for us to do anything today, but it is. Like, we've been here since 7am, so that's... That's Marcus. You know. I'm happy to go on more light or whatever. It's just more difficult now, you know. I do take, like, the key to this.

He's actually just going up tomorrow morning. Yeah, so do I. You might get them at 9 o'clock or go into public afterwards. OK, this is kind of last chance of doing it before we go back to Ireland.

Stretch for a sec, is that okay? We're flying home to Ireland this afternoon, but we decide to try again for just a few hours. It's our last chance. We park up outside the housing complex. Our packed suitcases are in the back of the car. Whatever happens, our next stop is the airport. Then all of a sudden, a CRV that looks like the car Gibney has been using. drives out of the entrance. How are we doing that side? Nobody.

Okay, if that's the case, we're in a very good position here. Okay, it's going this way. Usually the car goes left or right and we follow. But this time, the car catches us out and goes straight through the junction, driving straight past us. We spot George Gibney in the passenger seat. He's being driven by his housemate. So I've gone that way, okay, so I'm going to do this. Come on, buddy. Please let me out.

We follow, always two cars behind. Okay, I can't get any closer or else... So if we miss the lights here, we miss the lights. But they're within our sight.

Okay, there are two cars ahead. So, we'll see where this takes us. They turn suddenly into a shopping centre. A public place. Okay, they seem to be going into Oak Grove Shopping Centre. They're going into a new shop. I'm nervous and I'm already thinking ahead of what to say. when I drive up onto the curb. Okay, as you can probably tell, that's what they're banging onto a curb, just as we pulled up beside them.

George Gibney and his housemate have gone into a department store. We spot where they've parked their car and we get ready. Okay, the two of them are walking in together. When they leave the store and walk back towards their car, I'll approach him.

Okay, Cass, you just listen to this, okay? I'm going to walk over and you're going to just see if you can hear me, okay? Yeah. Just I'm going to talk now. We've thought about this moment for so long now. Run over this very scenario many times. I'm going to walk towards him alone. I don't want him to think there's a crew or cameras. I want to give us the best chance of getting a response. He's known as John, so that's how I plan to get his attention.

to not immediately shock him with George. No one calls him that here. There's rosary beads, there's two sets of rosary beads hanging out the car, the wing mirror. Two sets. Yeah. We've parked our car three spaces away from theirs. We can't miss them. We stand there and we wait. It feels like he's been in there for an age. Okay. Take a little deep breath there. Get it into here. This is good and this is meant to happen, okay? Yeah. Perfect timing.

Then, George Gibney walks out of the store. Okay, we're on. You ready? Give me one second. Gibney and his housemate are walking back to their car. OK, one second. I'm going to walk towards him now, OK? Mm-hm. I walk towards him alone with my interview request in my hand. Excuse me, John. Hi, John. Can I give you this, please? My name's Mark Horgan. I'm a journalist with the BBC.

I'm recording audio at the moment. This is a request for an interview. Gibney won't take my envelope. His housemate says, forget it, forget it. We're going to be broadcasting a... A documentary series, a podcast series based on your life and the allegations against you. And we'd really like for you to be able to tell your side of the story. Gibney is thrown. He's panicking. He staggers away from his own car.

He's momentarily dazed. He's wandering in a circle. Do you have anything to say? It's a strange sight. You've been quiet for about 25 years, George. I think the survivors deserve to hear your voice. His housemate gets into their car and starts the engine. Gibney cautiously walks back past me, not once looking me in the eye. We're gonna FedEx this over to you. He gets in and they drive off suddenly.

George Gibney says nothing. He's mute throughout the entire encounter. It's like an involuntary reaction. When you call out his name, he doesn't say hello or greet you. George Gibney's natural reaction when approached is to say absolutely nothing. A strategy of literal silence. We're joined, as I said by...

George Gibney. George. George Gibney. Our great Olympic coach. Exciting times, really, at swimming. She moves great, really does, George. How old is she? Oh, 17 now. George, have we built the swimmers up too high? Realistically, we've been our best ever ranked swimmers prior to an Olympic Games.

We're very hopeful. Well, pardon me if I'm a little bit cynical, George. I mean, is that realistic against that kind of a field? You can't just go along with the wave if you want to make exceptional progress. George Gibney, it's been a very good gala. Oh, there's no doubt. First time we've ever managed to get medals at that level.

George, you're salivating at the prospects ahead. We seem to be taking leaps and bounds, and certainly the bond opportunity will be another one. George, good luck for us all. Okey-doke. Thanks very much, George. George, best of luck there. Thank you very much indeed.

You happy? I think the initial reaction when I approached him, first of all, he wasn't sure for a second, you know? But then I think he heard the accent and I think then he realised what was going on. I don't think many people approach them full stop. I don't think they have many interactions apart from when they go to a shop like this or when they go to the supermarket. I don't think they talk to many people.

So I think when anybody approaches them, they feel something could be up here. And why do you think he came up this way? Because he thought that I was going to, he had a panic. So he walked past the car, he thought that we didn't identify his car, so he just had a momentary panic. He went back, got in the car, he realised there was nothing he could do. So he obviously just had to panic for a second. It's been a long time since anybody's done this.

And it's been a really long time since maybe he thought people had forgotten about it. It's been a long time since he's been confronted. So it's an incredible sense of frustration for people. If they're looking to hear something from this man for such a long period of time, for so many years, and people feel like they want answers of some kind from him, and that any time he's approached, he just, he shuttles off like he did there.

He ran off and then he turned back and ran in and then saw where he could go and that was it. It's kind of just an unusual thing in that in some ways you wanted to hear his voice, you want to hear him speak for a little bit. Because I think it is haunting. I think 25 years to think that man hasn't spoken when all he did was speak on chat shows and speak on...

press conferences and speak as a TV analyst. That's what he did. He spoke, he got his message across. And then he waited 25 years, he can't say anything to anybody. And he refuses to, he stays mute when somebody approaches him like that. Did you want to just hear his voice now? Yeah. I wanted to hear his voice. And maybe we did. Maybe we'll be able to hear his voice. Maybe you'll hear something when we listen back to it. I listen back afterwards and there's nothing.

Just the atmosphere of an outlet mall in Orlando, Florida. The hum of traffic, the sound of trolleys. No sound of George Gibney. Not even a murmur, a greeting. Just silence. George Gibney. Mute. There's nothing else I'm missing here now.

So George Gibney didn't want to talk, but it turns out others wanted to talk about him. Voice messages. First message received today as 13.56. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so I just go for... Yeah, no, just... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can. How are you? Can you hear me okay? Yeah, I can hear you fine, actually. That line's a bit better than yesterday. You can hear me a bit better than yesterday, can you? Yeah, much better, yeah. Okay, great. Just give me one sec.

Okay. Sorry to keep you. Jeez, it must be all hours over there now as well, is it? No, it's only 8.30 or something. Oh, okay. Okay, okay, good stuff. Throughout the course of this series, people were reminded of incidents in their own childhood.

Children who were coached by George Gibney in the 70s, 80s and 90s began contacting us and they were called memories that had stayed with them. Suddenly there I was, like from nowhere, he just appeared. He had me cornered and he said, I'll give you a lift home and I...

always had an excuse and that day i said no it's okay honestly it's okay i'll be home in 10 minutes and he said no i insist i am not letting you go and walk in the rain so he said you just get into that car there was little room between the shop and the swimming pool And I wouldn't have walked through that way because that wouldn't have been my route. But he asked me in there or pulled me in or... And he called me and he said, I think you're a good swimmer.

and he said and i have the tugs for you i think you should get the tugs and asked me to come around behind the desk he said i wanted to try on the tugs My sister actually has a really vivid memory of him just appearing at her bedroom door when she was playing so he actually managed to get up the stairs. And then my next memory is being in the hotel room. I remember him just walking in the door and the door closing and just getting such a fright when he closed the door.

All of these voices had never spoken before. They spoke of former teammates. They asked after people who'd vanished, and they never knew why. They spoke of the silence that they'd shared as kids. And they spoke of incidents where they were sexually assaulted. but i just remember being really scared as well like when even when i think of it now i can feel how scared i was you know he would stand by the showers when we were showering

and I can still see him standing watching us in the showers. I just remember when he kissed me. My first kiss was with him, so of course that's always been an appalling thought. I went in to get flippers. And the next thing, the lights went off and he grabbed me and went to kiss me. And I got into the car with such a heavy heart. And then I saw his daughter. And I remember thinking, OK, I might be OK then. You know, she was just strapped into her baby seat in the back. She was maybe one or two.

One morning I remember our new Trojan leotards had arrived and it was very early in the morning and George managed to get myself and another gymnast into his office and insisted that we change into them right in front of them. We already had our own leotards on so we had to change out of them.

into the new leotards, so half naked, while he just stared at us. Kissed me on the lips and put his tongue in my mouth, and I remember feeling that his wife and children were outside, so the whole thing was extraordinary.

I said to him, you know, George, and I had my hand on the door and I'd unlocked the lock. I said, George, I'm going to get out. And he said, no, no, no, I'll bring you home. And I said, no, no, I'm going to get out. And he said, well, you have to thank me. I said, thank you very much. He said, no, you have to thank me properly. And I said, I kind of looked at him. I thought, oh, no. And then he said...

You have to thank me like you thank your father. And then, of course, he called me over, asked could he have a look at it, put his fingers under the elastic, I remember, on the leg to check that the elastic was right with his fingers right up of my bum. And we knew that this was wrong, but nobody actually really said anything, and the adults never said anything about it. And he kind of gave me his cheek, so I said, OK, thank you, and I went to kiss his cheek.

And he turned, he put his hands under my chin and he started to kiss me. Now, like a French kiss, but not a proper one because I didn't know how to do that. But... But it was my formative teenage years, and this was our whole experience of growing up. And yet we thought it was normal because none of the adults said anything, and we assumed that they knew that this sort of thing was going on.

scared me of men for a long while I think it actually did affect me through my life in men in general or men in a party or We just figured that, you know, he was a privileged man and privileged men were allowed to do that to young people because nobody actually stopped him. It's always been with me what he did.

To me, it was a shocking experience because I felt I was in a safe environment with all my wonderful girlfriends doing what we love doing. And as a kid, you can't explain it, but you know it's not right. Looking back, I'm amazed. I'm amazed. I'm told he's not allowed into my room, but my mum wouldn't like it. But I just remember being absolutely terrified.

It seemed like a minute, but he was in the room for a long time. But he did go very quick when I started screaming at him. And I remember him just running, getting up and just running, and I can still see the back.

We get back in our car and leave the car park. Our last journey before we go home is to put our interview request through Gibney's letterbox. Let's go home. Yeah. George Gibney didn't want to talk to us. But former swimmers of his, people who now lived all over the world, the United States, Singapore, Australia, the UK and Ireland, they did. They wanted to talk. They had something to say.

The final two episodes of Where is George Gibney will be produced and broadcast in real time, taking into account some of the correspondence and coverage we've received over the past eight weeks. Episode 9 will be available on Thursday, December 3rd. with episode 10 coming a week later. Thanks to everybody for listening so far, and to all of you who've gotten in touch from around the world.

If you'd like to join the many people who've contacted us, people with their own stories and memories and questions, please do get in touch to whereisgeorgegibney at bbc.co.uk. That's Where Is George Gibney, all one word. at bbc.co.uk and you can find us on social at Second Captains. If you've been affected by any of the issues in this series please contact support organisations in your own country.

For a list of organisations in the UK that can provide support for survivors of sexual abuse, go to bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. Where Is George Gibney is a Second Captain's production for BBC Sounds. The series is written and produced by me, Mark Horgan and Ciarán Cassidy. It's co-produced with Maria Horgan and editing is also by Ciarán Cassidy.

Research and fact-checking is by Cillian Downe. Our composer is Michael Fleming. And sound mixing is by Jer McDonnell. Our theme tune is by Aaron Desner. The executive producer for the BBC is Dylan Haskins and the commissioning editor is Jason Phipps. Once again, you'll be able to listen to episode nine of Where is George Gibney on Thursday, 3rd of December.

In the meantime, there'll be a Q&A special on the series, available in just a few weeks' time exclusively on BBC Sounds. You can listen by downloading the free BBC Sounds app wherever you are in the world. Thanks again, and I'll talk to you then. Over the last 13 years, I have met really memorable people. If you were convinced about something...

To be silent about it, it's cowardice. Join me, Stacey Dooley, on my new podcast where I remember their fascinating stories and revisit their extreme situations. All we can do is look at who she is right now today. And forgive. To find out where they are now. I am so excited. Stacey Dooley revisits. Listen on BBC Sounds.

In 2017, a huge news story brought me back to my hometown of Huddersfield. A man has been shot dead by police. You want to know why he was killed? I'm Ruben Azhar, and what I uncovered was gang violence, money laundering and drugs. There's been another incident. Sounds like something out of The Godfather. Hometown. Listen on the BBC Sounds app. Make sure your catfish is U.S. catfish.

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