7. Christ Renews

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This podcast refers to child sexual abuse and contains interviews that some listeners may find upsetting, as well as some occasional strong language. Christ renews. How long have we been here now? An hour and 15, isn't it? Yeah. No idea we're here. Yeah, I know. That was the same thing, but even the fact that they came down here, he definitely isn't onto us.

Hey, look, look, look. Yeah, that's the boys. That's the two boys. There they are. Just keep your head down. Keep your head down. Okay. George gave me it. walking over to another side of the building. They look like they're working here. They have some notes in their hand.

George Gibney now lives in Altamont Springs, a respectable suburb in Orlando. We continue to wait outside his house, and we watch. We've been here for almost a week. Okay, so they're gone left. We follow George Gibney and his housemate to a local shop. They get some groceries, then they're quickly back in the car. Is that just down there behind, just two behind a dairy cure? Really? I think so.

They went this way, did they? Yeah. This is gonna be bollocks. And then we follow Gibney as he goes home. It's a simple seven-minute journey. So is that his church there, the Annunciation? Yeah, the Church of the Annunciation, yeah. Where he passes the Church of the Annunciation. It's a local Catholic church that we believe he attends. a few cars in that annunciation car park this is us isn't it yeah yeah she's so close to the church isn't yeah as we wait

I make some more calls, trying to get some answers on George Gibney's life today. We're trying to find out how he fills his days. Does he have a job? Is he coaching swimming? Is he in contact with children? What's his routine now? There's a silver Honda. Cassie, that's not it there, is it? The tree back, it's too big. We make contact with whoever we feel could help us.

So local churches, local police, some religious groups, different charities, obviously swimming clubs and different coaches in the area. Most people had never heard of George Gibney, let alone metal. It's quite good that we got a sense. And after many calls, I eventually got in contact with a woman called Nancy. She works in the Church of the Annunciation. She's the office manager there.

Yeah, in fact, I was at Mass on Saturday evening, and he comes strolling in. He always comes in our bookstore, buys candles, and frankly, we don't know where he gets his money from because he doesn't work. But he has a credit card. But we don't know, you know, and it never comes back. It had never been declined. But he comes in and he buys candles regularly. We can't ban him from attending Mass.

but he's banned from everything else here. Okay, so no volunteering and those types of things? He cannot volunteer here at all. He's been inactivated as a parishioner here. When we put someone inactive, it means that they are not a parishioner here. They don't contribute any money towards stewardship. If they do, we send it back. He's just...

determined that he's not allowed to volunteer in any type of ministry here. But I don't think many people know. And who knows if he hasn't done anything here? Who knows? You don't know where he's at or what he's doing, but he's not working, that's for sure. So what's he do all day long? So just like Nancy, we're trying to find out what George Gibney does now.

As I sit there, I think about how Gibney got to this point. How he managed to get into the United States in the first place. How he was helped. And there's a three-decade-old mystery that we'd like to figure out. Who offered him the coaching job in the US that helped him get his visa? Is he going to come over? Then we spot someone watching us. Just standing there, studying our car. Slowly drinking a coffee. He can have a good outlook. Is he? Is he outside the car?

Hi, how are you doing? How are you? Good, you look lost. I am kind of lost, to be honest with you. I'm from the BBC, and we're looking to, we're meeting somebody here for an interview, a resident of Altamont Springs. No, it was just odd. I'm sorry if I... I'm actually really conscious as well of parked in this residential area where people could think, what the hell is that strange guy doing there? That's what I thought.

Oh, everything's good. Yeah, yeah. So I'm sorry. I'm sorry about that. What are they doing here? They're a coach. Oh. As we continue to wait for Gibney, I go over something I tracked down in Ireland. It's an old Trojan swimming club coach's contacts book from Gibney's time at the club. And there are lots of familiar names.

So look at these names. There's Gerard Doyle, Father Ronald Bennett, Derry O'Rourke. All convicted. And then UK names right alongside them. On the line below Gerard Doyle, it's Mike Drew. convicted from the UK. Paul Hickson is convicted from the UK. We investigated a lot of people in this book. Take, for example, a former manager of the Irish Olympic team in 1984.

A man called Billy Moore. So he was the guy, months after it came out in the papers about Gibney, in the Tribune, months after it became public knowledge, he was inviting him to coach kids in Monaghan. So he was seen alongside, poolside alongside Gibney and Monaghan. That's after the... That's after the Tribune story. And he also questioned the mentality of anybody who came forward with accusations against Gibney.

Charlie Wilson. Charlie Wilson. Big Team GB names. Charlie Wilson was a Team GB coach at the Olympics in 1976. One of his swimmers, the famous Brian Brinkley, got a bronze medal. Is that the guy in Bedford, is it? It's a Bedford-Madernian's head coach. Really big name. He and Gibney would have gone way back. When news of the allegations against Gibney broke...

we learned that Wilson was a big defender of his. Documents we traced show that Gibney was actually living in the Bedford area for a period in 1995, and that Charlie Wilson, along with other families connected to Bedford Modernians, took turns in putting Gibney up. Families with young swimmers. Gibney also coached kids at the club during this time. And then look at the name right beside it, Sammy Smith. So the man that helped him get that job in Warrander in Edinburgh.

and the UK Team GB coach again in the Olympics. Hammy Smith. That name again. At the Warrender Club in Edinburgh, where he was appointed in August to coach talented youngsters, officials knew all about the allegations and went ahead with offering him the post. The man who got him into...

or helped get him into the Warner Club in Edinburgh after the news had come out. Making this series, we also learned that 10 years after getting George Gibney that prestigious job in Edinburgh, Hammy Smith's son was putting up George Gibney in California. at the request of his father. So his son put Gibney up in a house in California. So ten years later? Ten years later.

But what I think is really interesting is the amount of US names that are here and the US contacts. You see 001 numbers all over here. Well, it's tremendous. They've really recognized the standard of Irish swimming and the improvement.

because we've been to Florida once or twice. As I go through the diary, name after name and coach after coach, I come across an Irishman, but an Irishman with a Tampa address. But then there's this name. Peter Banks. Yeah. So Peter Banks, Irish name, Florida address. Peter Banks is from Dublin. He was George Gibney's assistant coach at the Trojans club for 12 years. Gibney was his mentor. And they were synonymous with each other as George rose the ranks of Irish swimming.

But then in 1989, Peter Banks got a big swimming job in Florida. Banks went on to have the career George Gibney would have dreamed of. He coached Olympic gold medalists. He became a Hall of Fame coach internationally. and he still coaches in Tampa. Peter Banks agreed to talk to me about Gibney, and I was somewhat surprised because he's never been interviewed on the subject before. And I had a lot of questions.

about the job offer for the visa application, how he feels all these years later about his mentor George Gibney, and about why he never spoke before. We meet in a hotel in Rocky Point in Tampa, in a... pretty stuffy hotel room. No problem. There's a lot of misinformation that's flying around. This might be a good way to put my two cents in and tell the story the way I understand it. It will probably be a good way of getting...

my story out there, whether it's right or not. But, you know, it's my understanding of what has happened over the years, you know. And the last, actually the last time I met George Gibney was the day, the time he came out to collect his green card. He had to fly out here to collect his green card. And he called by the pool. And a friend of mine, Dave McCullough, who's since deceased, called me and he said, just so you know, this is all just broken in the news. And...

Because, you know, there was no internet and stuff like that. So Dave called me and George walked on the poolside and I pulled him aside and I said, George, this, Dave has just called me and he said, I want to know, is this true or what's going on here? And he never answered me. And I said, I guess by not answering me, is it a mission? Or what? I said, but I don't want anything to do with you. I said...

This is my life out here now, and as far as I'm concerned, I can't remember the words I said, but basically I said I didn't want to see him again. And that was Poolside. That was, he called into the pool one day. He was over here, he had to come over here to pick up his green card. And I've never seen him a day since.

It's interesting that he never said anything back to you. No, he literally walked, turned on his heel and walked out the door. And from that time that you spoke about when Gibney came to the pool in early 93... Did you have any communication with him since? No. Not one single word. Did he attempt to get in contact with you? No, never did.

Gibney collected his US visa from Tampa and saw Peter Banks for the final time in early 1993, which means his application was granted in 1992. He was a step ahead of the case. and his timing was extraordinary. Gibney's application in 1992 coincided with the introduction of the Morrison visa program in the US, where at least 16,000 visas yearly

were given exclusively to people from Ireland. More Irish were granted lottery visas to the US that year than any other time in history. And George Gibney was one of them. To get his US visa, Gibney needed an American job offer. And just to be clear, the job offer was made before the allegations against George Gibney became public in the press. We were able to access a redacted copy of the job offer.

after a journalist called Irvin Muchnick won a Freedom of Information case to access Gibney's immigration file. But it's heavily redacted, and all names and dates and addresses have been blacked out. There's always been a mystery about who wrote it, even 30 years later. No one has ever admitted to it. The job offer that was with his visa... Did you write that? I don't think so. Quite honestly, I don't think so. This is a redacted version of it you can see there.

So it's associated with a team. I don't know if you can read that out here. We'd be very interested in your services as a coach to do their team. I don't ever remember doing that. I mean, I don't ever remember that. Do you think you could have? I could have, but I don't ever remember ever I've been asked to do it.

But it would make sense if that was, if it was you who put it together prior to anything, allegations or anything like that. It's almost to understand the path here. But also that he would collect the visa. associated with this at an address near you or at your swimming pool? Yeah, I mean, I don't ever remember that. But... Again, you know, in passing, a time when he was putting his application together, maybe he asked me for...

Yeah, again, I can't. It doesn't ring a bell with me. It doesn't say, oh, yes, I remember doing that. Yeah, he had asked me to do that. I don't ever... But he might have. He might have. Yeah, of course. He could have. It is unusual that you don't remember whether you wrote that job offer or not. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I could have done it. I'm not saying I didn't do it. I could have done it, but it could have been in a... He could have been over at the time in one of the training camps and said, by the way, I'm doing this. Can you write something up for me? And you don't remember the club? Well, the club was...

I mean... Blue Wave. Blue Wave, yeah. I mean, it would have been Blue Wave. Are you interested in the services of... Yeah, yeah, it would have been Blue Wave if I was going to say anything. It would have been where I was, you know? You know?

From various people that I've spoken to who are from the coaching side of things, the assistant coaches and from people who were survivors of the abuse of Gibney and also just people who were associated with tuning at that time with Trojan. But can you understand why I suppose the people that were... around at that time and you had spent a really significant proportion of time with Gibney. Yeah. That you hadn't, I suppose, publicly condemned him. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I was out of the situation. I suppose I got on with my life. I was in America. I wasn't part of, you know, what was going on. But... I mean, I'm not sure, was that my role in this whole thing? Maybe some people think it should have been my role, but maybe at the time I didn't think it was my role to speak up publicly, because I don't think...

I was aware of any of those things that were happening when they happened. And maybe people think, well, you should have been. Well, maybe I should have been. But at the time, I don't. ever consider any of those things that happened. I can say hand on heart that I don't ever remember seeing anything that I would have constituted as...

you know, abuse in that way other than him being on the pool deck, you know, being aggressive and, you know, demanding a lot from athletes and being controlling and those sort of things, you know. And it might sound very... you know, innocuous in some ways or says, well, that's stupid. He should have easily known that or he should have easily known what was going on here. What kind of moron is he? He didn't know what was going on here. But until you live those things, until you're part of them.

Who knows how you're going to react? Who knows how you're going to say and what you're going to say or what you're not going to say? You know? If we knew what we know now, yes, most likely we'd all be different. But... You know, you do things because it's the environment you're in, it's the environment you were brought up in, and you treat them different ways. I mean, it's not about, at the time, it is about right and wrong.

But you don't think of it that way when you're standing there living it every single day, you know? And you don't think about what's right or wrong. I mean, you know, in the sense of I was there every day for 12 years, yeah, but so were a lot of other people. So were a lot of other parents. So were a lot of other people around the whole place. I mean, so why does it come down to me? So, yes, am I sitting here being nervous about talking to you about it? Yeah, of course I am.

I wouldn't be normal if I wasn't. You know, why does it come down to one person that's, yeah, I was on the side of the pool every day and I was working hard and doing, you know, is it right that he gets away with this? No, it's not. But is there one person to blame? Or is it the whole system to blame? Okay. Did you get everything you needed out of this? Yeah, I think so. I think I've got it yet. Okay. I leave Peterbanks.

And I leave with a clearer idea of what happened when George Gibney first came to Florida to pick up his visa. The very next morning at 7am. We return to our spot across the road from Gibney's housing development. There's a lot of police cars patrolling the area anyway. There's another car going past. And then, just before nine o'clock, George Gibney leaves the house in his car. The car, like before,

is driven by Gibney's housemate. He's around the same age as Gibney, maybe slightly younger. OK, Cass, I'm going to stay very far away here, OK? Because we don't know... I think it would be very unusual because they were even bluffed. Okay, they're going into Florida. Ah, they're going into the bloody hospital. For fuck's sake. Gibney's car disappears into a raft of buildings. There are lots of different premises here. Hospice of the comforter.

They might have been going in there to work. We wait in the car park for them to return. It seems to be a hospice. Does it sound like it's got a kind of religious connotation? It does. Certainly does. How long have we been here now? An hour and 15, isn't it? Yeah. And we ponder questions. Are they sick? Do they work here? Or are they just visiting someone? They have no idea we're here. Yeah, I don't know. That was the same thing, but even the fact that they came down here...

He definitely isn't on to us. Then we spot the two of them, walking from one building to another, carrying what seems to be notes. George Gibney walking over to another side of the building. They have some notes in their hand. They then suddenly go back to their car and drive out. Going around this way. OK, you ready to go? Yeah. After leaving, George Gibney goes straight home. But we go back to the hospice to investigate more. So if you're coming up this way...

Like, that's where we saw them walking out there. Yes. And that door says on the employee entrance only, okay? Okay. If you see them, they went down here to the left. Yes. And if you see down there, that entrance, and see that in their 605, that's an employee entrance only. So... The proper entrance for patients is around the front of it. So why was Gibney wandering around the grounds of the hospice? Could this have been a once-off? Was Gibney just visiting someone?

Or was he an employee caring for some of the most vulnerable people in his community? It turns out that one of those names we contacted in the area messaged me back. To play the message information, press 5. Coach Clay Parnell works with a local swimming club in Altamont Springs. It's called Patriot Aquatics. And he had met George Gibney. And it wasn't at poolside.

Hi, is that Clay? Yes. Hi, Clay. Good afternoon. It's Mark Horgan here from the BBC. How are you doing? Hi, just fine. Just fine. How are you? I'm great, thanks. Thanks so much for sending me on your number so I can have a chat. Really appreciate it. No problem. How did it come to pass, Clay?

I guess it's only some... did that, he approached me and so, you know, something to the effect of, you know, so you're a swim coach and I'm like, yeah, and he was, I just recall he was very sheepish, but you know, it's kind of sheepish about it. feeling me out to see if I knew who he was or recognized who he was. But then we got to talking a little bit about swimming, and he seemed to know a lot about it. And I just thought, that's kind of an interesting guy. I didn't know who he was.

It might have been... Very disturbing stories. Do you mind me asking you what the men's group was? I'd rather not say... I really don't think that this group... Nobody in this group knew anything about swimming. You know what I mean? I would rather not say what it was because I don't want them.

We know that he had at one point some quite strong religious links and that we just want to piece those things together. What we're, I suppose, trying to figure out is the trends of... the organizations that he's still involved in because from early days he tended to be involved in organizations that had religious links but also had trends into volunteering and that he could have access to children in that regard. So that's what our concern is when I'm asking that question.

Let me ask you this. Have you found any organizations in this area that he's been a part of? Yeah, we know that he was part of the Knights of Columbus. and we know that he was part of the Church of the Annunciation, which is a church that's in Altamont Springs. I don't know if it's connected. Okay, well, since you know that, that was the men's group.

There was a denunciation. I'm a member of denunciation. And that's the men's group where I bumped into. And we were doing a very long course. It lasted for months. Wow. You know, you would meet once a week and then there would be a long weekend and all this stuff. And that's a men's group with enunciation. And that's where it was. year later after I found out I think I saw him attending church or something like that and I'm like oh man I just you know really made me feel pretty

You know, I was like, oh man, he seems to be involved in the church, you know, a little bit. But I have not seen him in church for probably eight years. You know, there's multiple services. I go to the morning, he may go to another one. I don't know. I got the idea he was involved in some kind of, like the Knights of Columbus. I don't know which one, but I got the idea he was.

Yeah, it was called Christ for News. Christ for News was the name of the course that I was involved in, the men's group, Christ for News. and just go away. So the very next day we once again sit and we wait for George Gibney. If nothing else from today, we get 18 seconds of fire engine. As we wait... Let me tell you a little bit more about the group you heard Clay mention to us. The Knights of Columbus. It's a conservative, men's only Catholic organisation, and it was founded in the late 1800s.

And on the local group's website in Altamont Springs, they highlight their volunteering and fundraising for groups like the Scouts and the Special Olympics. Gibney's housemate is a senior Knight of Columbus. He's a former Knight of the Year. So it's perhaps unsurprising that George Gibney was also a member. In 2010, when his past was revealed, the Knights said that Gibney had left. But after searching through all their monthly newsletters over the years...

We found a photo of George Gibney volunteering with the Knights at the Florida Classic college football game in December 2014. So almost five years after they became aware of the allegations, there he is. George Gibney in a photo alongside 11 other knights, including his housemate. Again, at almost exactly the same time. George Gibney and the man he lives with leave the house. We follow them, and they look like they're going in the same direction as the previous day.

OK, so they're going back into the hospital, the hospice of the comforter again, at exactly the same time. It's 9am. We wait in the car park. Here, there we go. So they're absolutely working in here. So I can see George Gibney. I can see them. walking with a shopping trolley. And they're walking from one wing to another wing. And they obviously have materials from the hospital. within it, and their walk into another wing of the hospital looks like it's a full shopping trolley full of file notes.

So they're volunteering here for sure. They're either volunteering or working here for sure. You don't walk around as a patient with a shopping trolley full of files. George Gibney was still volunteering. Afterwards, the hospice of the comforter, when contacted and told about Gibney's background, said he now no longer volunteers there.

They also said they were not at liberty to give any more information on George Gibney. When contacted, the Knights of Columbus in Altamont Springs told us George Gibney is no longer a member. But they wouldn't say when he stopped volunteering. In some ways, nothing has really changed. What jumps out to me about the Irish and UK coaches, Billy Moore, Hammy Smith, Charlie Wilson, is that people continue to help Gibney even after they knew about the allegations.

And still today, people like Gibney's housemate, and certainly for a time the Knights of Columbus, continued supporting George Gibney despite knowing what he'd been charged with. Going around this way. Okay, you ready to go? Yep.

We now knew where George Gibney volunteered. And we knew where he lived. It was time to speak to him.

If you've been affected by any of the issues in this series, please contact support organisations in your own country. For a list of organisations in the UK that can provide support for survivors of sexual abuse go to bbc.co.uk If you are a former swimmer with George Gibney or have any information, however minor, that you feel could help the producers, please contact us confidentially at whereisgeorgegibney at bbc.co.uk.

That's whereisgeorgegibney, all one word, at bbc.co.uk. And you can find us on social at Second Captains. Where Is George Gibney is a Second Captains production for BBC Sounds. The series is written and produced by me, Mark Horgan, and Ciarán Cassidy. It's co-produced with Maria Horgan, and editing is also by Ciarán Cassidy. Research and fact-checking is by Cillian Down. Our composer is Michael Fleming. And sound mixing is by Jare MacDonald.

Our theme tune is by Aaron Desner. The executive producer for the BBC is Dylan Haskins, and the commissioning editor is Jason Phipps. You can hear episode 8 of Where is George Gibney, which is called Talk. from next Thursday, October 15th. After that, there'll be a break before episodes 9 and 10, as new information continues to come forward. We'll produce these last two episodes in real time. More on that next week. In the meantime, subscribe now on the free BBC Sounds app.

I'm criminal psychologist Dr. Julia Shaw. And I'm stand-up comedian Sophie Hagen. And this is a trailer for our new podcast, Bad People. Stories about people that most of us would consider evil. People that do the unspeakable. We are speaking about the unspeakable. And the stories are so good and often unexpected. And most importantly to me, it's not just about the gory details.

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