4. He Upped and Vanished

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Go to Vivint.com or call 1-855-4-VIVINT. Live intelligently. This podcast refers to child sexual abuse and contains interviews that some listeners may find upsetting, as well as some occasional strong language. Des, this is me talking. I'll be talking around this sort of level. How you doing, Jennifer? Blah, blah, blah. Yep, it's all sounding really good, yeah. Will we give it a go? Yep. Okay.

So you did used to work with him? You used to know him from one of the hotels? Yes, I actually worked for one of the resorts. Okay, well, listen, I've got so much that I'd like to talk to you about, so that's brilliant. It might be best for us to talk about it when we meet up in the flesh. What do you think? Yeah, that sounds great, hon. I love your accent, by the way. Oh, well, thank you very much, Jennifer. Cheers. Thank you.

He had told me personally because I had gone to the resort and he said, yeah, that he was planning this vacation, that he was going to Puerto Rico for a few days and he was planning on having fun and all this and that. You know, we spoke a little bit about it. And then the time came, you know, my friend told me, hey, you know, John never came back. He was supposed to come back yesterday or the day before or something. And I was like, really?

And she's like, yeah, they haven't been able to get a hold of him. I don't know why I'm whispering, but, you know, that's how she was like, you know, they haven't been able to get a hold of him. And, you know, we've been calling and calling and he doesn't answer his cell phone.

You know, it's like he just disappeared. And then that's when she told me, hey, you know, you should Google his name. But she didn't really want to tell me what it was. I think she just wanted me to have the shocker when I saw it for myself. But she's like, hey, Google this. She told me George instead of John. And I'm like, why? And she's like, just Google it. I'm not going to tell you. Just Google it. And when I did that, it popped up. I was shocked.

I mean, I was really, but I think I was also kind of like, yeah, you know, I knew it. I knew it.

We've just come out of the school. We've turned right. We're going down to Newton Park Avenue. So this was the route. Most of the kids flood out of the school at 10 to 4. And this was your way home? This was my way home. This is Johnny Watterson. We're going back to New Park Comprehensive School where Johnny used to be a student and George Gibney ran the sports complex and the swimming club Trojans. And so this is where he drove down, down Eden.

stop at the kids who are walking down the road, wind down the window and ask them if they wanted a lift to wherever they were going. So in 1994, George Gibney, who was unidentified throughout legal proceedings, walked out of court a free man. And the very next day after that high court decision, Gibney was interviewed for a prestigious new job. This time...

In the UK. I'm sure he thought business was usual for him. I'm sure that's exactly how he thought. He was still the Olympics for me, coach. And even if you remember... Nobody knew anything except the swimmers and the people close to them. Not just the fact that Joe Public didn't know anything about it, but people in swimming who did know about it decided not to believe it.

With the help of a reference from a former school principal of New Park Comprehensive, Gibney was interviewed for a job with the prestigious Warrander Swim Club in Edinburgh. In the reference from Dr John W. Harris, Gibney was described as a gifted coach. Ending with the line, I can recommend George as a man of many talents, who throws himself wholeheartedly into all that he undertakes. In a statement, Harris later said he was not aware of any proven allegations against Gibney at the time.

So not only did the public not know anything about George Gibney but the people who did know about George Gibney those people in swimming decided to take the side of the coach. One month after the court proceedings had been dropped. George Gibney had that new job in Scotland. Anyone outside swimming didn't really know the people in swimming. Many of the people inside swimming decided to believe George Gibney.

not to believe the victims. Sorry, will I turn this off? Yes, please. So that's it there. That's the... George Gibney's office was the one in the middle. Straight ahead of us right there? Yeah. George Gibney's office was... is the middle window that we're looking at from right in front of the building. It was in that office where two sisters of one of the victims decided to go and challenge Gibney because their little sister had told them that...

Gibney had raped her. So they confronted Gibney in that room that we're looking at and Gibney sat on the table and pulled out rosary beads from his pocket and apologised and told the two sisters. that he wouldn't do it again. And then he started crying. And he said he'd pray for them and he'd pray for their little sister. So two girls said okay. But if you do this again, we're going to tell our father and our father will kill you. And that's the last they ever saw of Gibney, but he didn't stop.

Johnny was a student in New Park from 1973 to 1979, and the school memories and stories of George Gibney stayed with him. By the time 1994 rolled around, Johnny was a journalist with the Sunday Tribune. one of Ireland's biggest newspapers. What was in your mind at that point? What was in my mind was that a guy escaped justice.

But I'd known so many people and had spoken to so many people who had known what he did. And I couldn't understand how the courts had come to the decision they did. That victims... Didn't see any justice. I knew legally it was the end of the line. I wondered what, if anything, could be done about it.

How's it going, Johnny? A chance to coffee again. Oh, Jesus Christ. You're going to get fucked out of here. Hi, Peter. Nice to see you. How's it going? Do you want to grab a seat there, Peter? Wouldn't you? Join a paper as editor and you're a director and you're on the board. You're in no illusion at all. You know what the accounts are saying. And the fact is the paper was on life support.

There was a cheque that had to be written every month to keep the thing going, to pay all our salaries. That's the former editor of the Sunday Tribune, Peter Murtagh. At this point, he was pretty much unaware of George Gibney. I didn't know him at all. He meant nothing to me until Johnny came and started talking about the story. And it's really about, without being kind of too...

too pompous about it or that, but it is about justice, isn't it? It's about justice for people who've been wounded, damaged, rolled over by the system, have not had their day. Certainly the victims saw it as a miscarriage of justice. Absolute miscarriage of justice. Johnny quickly had the full support of his editor. His next step was to approach Gary O'Toole. I met Gary in a coffee shop in the city centre in Dublin.

just to talk about it and to see what he thought. He was absolutely cooperative from the beginning and wanted to help and wanted to do something. And then when Gibney's Supreme Court judgment... let him go free. Then we got down to the, how are we going to do this? Will you introduce me to some of the victims? Will you?

go to them first, tell them what I planned to do, which is to write the story and put it in the Sunday Tribune. Gary would go to them and say, this guy called Johnny Watterson wants to write a story about it. He believes. What happened to you? And will you talk to him? And Gary came back one after the other four or five, six times.

The survivors had been through immense heartbreak and trauma in telling their stories in great detail to police almost two years previously. Now they're being asked to go through it all again, despite having entirely lost faith in the system. I remember it took about a year, and it was a slow process because they didn't know who I was. They wanted to trust me, so I met them.

tried to gain their trust, I suppose. They were telling me something deeply personal. We had to make sure that they were behind it. And they were behind it because they felt so let down by the system. They wanted...

people to know and they were aware that Gibney was coaching kids. The survivors agreed to talk and have their stories published under pseudonyms. Johnny put together accounts from four different swimmers, but that wasn't enough. The advice of the Tribune's lawyer Hugh Mohan was that the story could never go to print unless the paper got sworn affidavits.

This is a good time to explain the difficulties with Irish defamation law. Irish defamation laws are weighted heavily in favour of protecting an individual's right to their good name. and restricts what Irish media organisations can publish to a far greater degree than their US counterparts. And in comparison to libel cases in the UK or elsewhere in Europe, Ireland's defamation awards are huge, sometimes running into the millions.

Awards certainly great enough to close down an Irish newspaper. And back in 1994, the Sunday Tribune was a newspaper that was already struggling. I told the victims that we are going to be sued by this man and you are going to have to stand up in court.

that's where the end game is going to be. And can you do that? Are you prepared to do that? Are you prepared to go through your sworn statements and all of that detail, that personal detail, the traumatic detail? And they all agreed that they would do that. Their bravery really drove it. And for them to sign sworn statements to say that they would do that was even a step beyond what journalists normally ask. Yeah, yeah. Huge. Luckily...

The bravery of the victims came through. A final step before the story could go to print was for the paper to approach one of Ireland's foremost senior counsel, Adrian Hardiman, a future Supreme Court judge. was asked for his assessment. At the time, Hardiman wrote, It is calculated to destroy the subject's reputation conclusively, end his career beyond hope and redemption, and probably ruin his life generally. I was nervous.

No doubt about it. I knew who he was and what he had done, and I knew he was going to get clean away if we didn't do that. I certainly remember the moment when, you know... The decision had to be taken. I knew it would be a big story because he was the Olympic coach. On the 4th of December 1994, the Sunday Tribune ran a front cover with the headline, Top Swim Coach Gibney. is child sex abuser.

Yesterday the Sunday Tribune revealed details of child sex abuse by the swimming coach George Gibney. The paper carried a denial by George Gibney. He says, I am innocent of all the allegations that have been made against me. I know that I will be guilty in the eyes of some, but I am innocent.

The truth about the country's great Olympic swimming coach spread quickly around Ireland. Mr Gibney has denied the allegations of sexual abuse which were made against him in yesterday's Sunday Tribune and repeated by most newspapers today. Sworn affidavits had been given detailing the alleged...

The BBC has made several attempts to contact Mr Gibney for comment, but so far he hasn't made any public statements. We've been attempting this morning to contact George Gibney, but to no avail. However, we have been talking to someone we are calling Colm, who is one of those making the allegations. I asked Colm, whose voice, by the way, we distorted electronically, to tell me when he first came into contact with George Gibney.

The distorted voice of Colin was actually Chalky White. It was Chalky's first time speaking publicly about what had happened. This has now been published in the Sunday Tribune and been taken up by other newspapers and become something of a media sensation. The only reason that I decided to continue to press...

Gary O'Toole? The problem is not being believed for a child who's been abused. That's just a terrible thing to happen to them. They were never given a chance to be listened to nor were they believed until yesterday and today. You know that George Gibney has denied strenuously all of this? Well, absolutely. I didn't expect him to do anything different. The George Gibney allegations that we made seem to have been...

you know, a wink and a nod attitude within the association itself. And no one ever pursued any of the rumors that were going around the swimming pool. There are detailed reports in the paper today of swimmers that had gone to them and told them what was going on and they ignored or they just refused.

to believe it so i don't think anybody could have looked back if the bottom had fallen out of it nobody could have looked back and and said you know you were reckless you were malicious you were you know you failed in your professional duty We had a moral imperative as well because we were comprehensively destroying a man's reputation. Absolutely. We knew we were doing that and we had to have good reason for doing that. And if you didn't have good reason for doing what we did...

to George Gibney, then you shouldn't do it. Yeah. I mean, I would slightly quibble with that. I think his reputation was destroyed by his own actions. And our moral imperative actually was to vindicate the rights of his victims. But as a consequence of that, you're absolutely right. I mean, this man should not have been able to practice as a coach ever again.

It's perhaps surprising that George Gibney was given a fresh start in Edinburgh by the elite Warrender Club, while he was awaiting the trial that never took place. Unfortunately for Gibney, the story also made it to Scotland. The BBC were alerted to the Sunday Tribune article by parents from Warrandir Swimming Club. They were looking for answers from their club's executive and why Gibney was hired in the first place.

And officials of Warrander have also been reluctant to talk about the appointment. Though in a statement today, the club say their position over the engagement of George Gibney as chief coach is unchanged in the knowledge that no proceedings were being taken against him. George Gibney remains chief coach of Warrander Baths Club. Grab a seat there and I'll... If you don't mind, I'd like to record your reactions to this, if that's OK.

Do you want to put the headphones on so you can see it? Or so you can hear it? Warrender members plan to meet privately on Sunday night. They're angry that the club committee, who've backed Mr Gibney in his post, say they have the parents behind them. Nobody can be certain, in fact, of a man's innocence or guilt. That isn't our place, actually. Oh, bloody hell. It was here. And if there's doubt, the children, in fact, shouldn't be, you know...

So what demands are you making of the club immediately in respect of the coach? That Mr Gibney in fact be replaced. This is Brian Latimer. Brian's children were swimmers at Warrander at the time and he became something of a spokesperson for the parents. Today one couple, after being in touch with Irish police, shared the information they'd been given with other parents from the club.

I think the biggest... Oh, my wife. ...worry is the fact that the executive, in my opinion, are actually, in a way, playing rush and relate with their children's safety. Brian's late wife Ellen was a former swimming coach herself and she organised meetings about Gibney amongst the parents. I have forgotten the meeting took place in my house.

I'd forgotten there was a camera there as well. And my wife was around as well. Dear God, I forgot all about that. I knew vaguely that... I knew vaguely, in fact, there was a meeting somewhere, but I'd forgotten I was here. Dear goodness. The time I was in my old people's home myself, actually. I think you look very similar to what you do then. I think you've aged very well. Oh, God, save us.

How would you judge your media performance? Terrible. Awful, dearie me. I do talk in shorthand and everything. I'm from the police show, in fact, down there. Everyone speaks very fast about that because life's so short down there. You've got to speak quick to get it all in. Cheering me. How was, maybe there was a sense that people were starting to be uncomfortable with how Gibney was coaching. How did that come to pass, as you remember? It wasn't so much coaching, in fact.

As I said earlier on, all these kids have been friends. You know, for years, in fact, they all joined when they're five and six years old. And when they're 11 or 12, they've been friends for five or six years. And the first thing Gidney, in fact, did when he arrived at the club was to break up some of these friendships and the girls. He'd pick them out, pick out one or two girls and take them away from the group.

they no longer were friends in that group. He saw them as differently. And those are the ones that he befriended. And that's really what the parents were initially up in arms about. He'd broken up all the friendships amongst the girls and the younger boys too, in fact. And he began picking up one or two of the girls.

for special treatment, you know, away from their friends. And that caused resentment in the friends that had left and the people that weren't picked. And that was really how it all began. That was how he started, you know. It feels like when you're saying that to me that he was...

almost in the steps of doing what he'd done before. It was in the process. Oh, definitely. I mean, that's obviously his, what do you call it, motus operandi. In fact, that's how he performs. That's how he does it, you know. So it's not, that's what grooming's all about, for goodness sake, isn't it?

That's how you groom. You know, people make them feel special. And that's what he was doing. And as I said, that was one of the first things that the parents noticed, that, you know, he'd broken up the friendships that had been going for years. He appears in fact.

Takes that one or two from the herd, that's it. You know, you're now my favourites and that's it. You know, you don't need to be friends with these people because you're better than they are. The kids feel good and, you know, the ones that are left in fact feel hurt. and the parents kept in arms and that was really how it all started.

One of the parents behind Sunday's meeting was on the appointments committee but voted against Mr Gibney being taken on. It's emerged that Warrender offered George Gibney the chance of an interview before the case against him was eventually dropped in the Irish courts.

and the club's committee were fully aware of court proceedings against him when he was appointed. Indeed, the allegations were discussed at his interview. I don't myself, in fact, see how that Warrander Swimming Club, after knowing the man for three months, can form opinions. and such strong opinions on his past life, wherever it was, and completely disregard the advice we've had, in fact, from the Irish people and Irish swimmers who say, in fact, all is not above board and all is not kosher.

I find this strange, the fact that they are not prepared to listen to anybody else other than the man himself. We knew nothing about this. The parents knew nothing about that at all, actually. The committee, in fact, obviously, as it says there, in fact, knew a little bit.

I knew all about him, but the parents weren't told. We knew nothing about that. Which part specifically did you know nothing about? About giving his past. It wasn't until I phoned Ireland and found out from the police, in fact, that he had been in...

Although it had failed, we didn't know there had been a prosecution case in Ireland at all. Nobody told the parents that. I phoned the guard, again told them I was a concerned parent, and asked them what the situation was, and they explained as best they could what had happened. our executive, because they've done this quite, you know, as easily as I did. He came as a personal friend of Francis and Amy, simple as that. They knew him.

They told us that they knew him in Ireland and he was a well-respected, you know, wonderful chap, simple as that. Francis and Hamilton Smith were the high-profile friends Gibney needed to get the job in Scotland. He came in with the best of recommendations. Hammy and Francis, you couldn't get better than that. Warrander, that was it. Hammy and Francis, who ran Warrander, you know. And again, that's the scary part, you know, if they were recommending him for goodness sake, you know.

Why couldn't they see whatever else was on? Hamilton, or Hammy, was one of the most successful coaches in British swimming in the 70s, 80s and 90s. As well as coaching alongside Francis at Warrander, he developed 10 Olympians and 30 international swimmers in his career. They included the famous British Olympic medal winner, David Wilkie. And the same in, you know, if a paedophile like...

Gibney, in fact, has taken the court in Ireland. And then he's reintroduced in Scotland by one of the major voices in Scottish and British swimming, in fact, as being a good guy. People with responsibility in fact for children shouldn't be taking any chances whatsoever in fact with anybody's reputation, you know. The support from the Smiths came long before Gibney arrived in Scotland.

In a letter to Trojan Swimming Club that we tracked down from September 1993, Francis signed off with, We shall be thinking of George in the coming weeks. Gibney's lawyers were attempting to stop the trial from going ahead at the time. And their support continued even after the Tribune story. Hamilton described Gibney in the media as a man of extreme integrity, and Francis said that he 101% had her support. When contacted, Francis Smith told me she didn't want to talk.

that it was all in the past and that she no longer has any contact with George Gibney. Last night, as youngsters arrived for a training session, Mr. Gibney was apparently hiding in a nearby supermarket before being smuggled in. I called again at his house today, but so far he's refused to comment except to say there's a vendetta against him. Alan Mackay reporting Scotland, Edinburgh. Over the course of just five days and three BBC Scotland TV reports...

it seems the pressure of the parents finally took its toll. The decision to sack George Gibney was made by the executive committee at a meeting yesterday. Until then, the club had stood by its chief coach... it was aware of allegations of sexual abuse of children made against him the allegations which surfaced in ireland have never been tested in the courts after the meeting a statement from the club said following further information received

The committee decided to terminate the engagement of the chief coach, George Gibney, with immediate effect. This decision was taken in the best interests of the club. I've almost asked you everything that I needed to ask. What I think is, I'm not clear about is that we saw in the video.

There was a statement saying that Gibney had been removed by the club. But to me, from the people I've spoken to in Edinburgh, he walked from the club. He just disappeared. Yeah, I mean, you know, removed. There was no sort of meeting, you know, sort of formal. And with that, George Gibney had disappeared. Today, at the Edinburgh address where George Gibney was known to be staying...

The BBC was told that he's now moved away. Nobody came to do the kids at his coaching session. He just wasn't there, you know. We weren't told, in fact, he's left, you know. He just didn't bloody appear, you know. He just disappeared, that was it. And when they phoned around asking where he was, he's gone. That's it, you know. Just up and vanished. Swimming's George Gibney.

the confident character that loved to appear in TV studios whenever he could, was gone forever. Many decisions have been made by me over the last four or five years, and I think that's what has brought Irish swimming through. We're joined, as I said, by... George Gibney. George. George Gibney. Our great Olympic coach. In his place, he'd assume a new character. All references to swimming would be removed from his resume.

He'd be the mass-going volunteer who travelled with rosary beads and who made a new life for himself in America. He'd become John Gibney. Today, at the Edinburgh address where George Gibney was known to be staying, the BBC was told that he's now moved away. Charlie Kepala, reporting story.

If you've been affected by any of the issues in this series, please contact support organisations in your own country. For a list of organisations in the UK that can provide support for survivors of sexual abuse, forward slash action line. If you were a former swimmer with George Gibney or have any information, however minor, that you feel could help the producers, please contact us confidentially

That's whereisgeorgegibney, all one word, at bbc.co.uk. And you can find us on social at Second Captains. Where Is George Gibney is a Second Captains production for BBC Sounds. The series is written and produced by me, Mark Horgan, and Ciarán Cassidy. It's co-produced with Maria Horgan, and editing is also by Ciarán Cassidy. Research and fact-checking is by Cillian Down. Our composer is Michael Fleming. And sound mixing is by Jer MacDonald.

Our theme tune is by Aaron Desner. The executive producer for the BBC is Dylan Haskins and the commissioning editor is Jason Phipps. You can hear episode five of Where is George Gibney? It's called Land of Opportunity. from next Thursday, 24th of September. You can subscribe on the free BBC Sounds app. I'm criminal psychologist Dr. Julia Shaw. And I'm stand-up comedian Sophie Hagen. And this is a trailer for our new podcast, Bad People. Stories about people that most of us would consider evil.

People that do the unspeakable. We are speaking about the unspeakable. And the stories are so good and often unexpected. And most importantly to me, it's not just about the gory details. Subscribe to Bad People now on BBC Sounds. There'll be a new episode every week and each is an independent story so you don't even have to listen from the beginning. Just dive in wherever.

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