3. Bail

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This podcast refers to child sexual abuse and contains interviews that some listeners may find upsetting, as well as some occasional strong language.

I might go this route again, Cass, and then we can just go up the other way. We've just decided to call it quits for another day. Since just after 5am. We've been parked up opposite the entrance to George Gibney's housing development. Today is a holiday in the US, so not much has happened. Just before we head for home, we decide to drive into the estate and loop past Gibney's house one more time.

Nothing going on, very sleepy, no movement. But still nothing. It's our fourth day out here now, and each evening we've been leaving for home just as it starts getting dark. Do you want me to bang it off for you, have you? Erm... But what we didn't think of was who was watching us. We didn't know it at the time, but as we left the housing development...

we were the ones being followed. As we drove across the motorway, past the lines of outlet stores and drive-throughs, and for the remainder of the 10-minute drive back to a rented apartment, there was a car tailing us.

Just a moment after we knocked off that recorder, we pulled into our apartment block. And as I reversed to park up... We saw an SUV suddenly pick up speed and stop right in front of us. We were blocked in. A man then jumped out quickly and walked towards our car. He was in his bare feet. He wanted to know what we were doing around his neighbourhood.

It was a neighbor of Gibney's. This would have worked here. 5 o'clock in the morning, like that's not the cool thing to do, right? Yeah, well... Do you know the house they're at? I think I know who you're trying to meet. Is that a Hispanic person? No. No? Okay. No. This is my US cell. The person that you think we were looking for or looking to speak to.

You don't know the person? No, there's just a house that has some weird activity going on that's near where you're looking down the street at. So I was suspecting that's kind of what you guys were looking at. We're going to be here for another few days, and let me turn this off.

You were saying that you were speaking to, or the other people in your community know. Our neighbors, all of them, have seen you guys driving very slowly down the street. You scared my wife the other day because you were out front of the house. So I've been watching out for you ever since then. My concern is that... persons who

know the person that we're looking to speak to will alert them. That's not my concern. My concern is my family, right? So that's all I care about. So that's why I'm hunting you guys down because at the end of the day I worry about my wife and my daughter and my family, right? So that's what I care about.

I think you're 100%. If there's someone in our neighborhood that we need to be watching out for, that's all I care about. Yeah, yeah. So is this, I don't want to pry, but is this like drug-related, terrorist-related? Is this something I don't want to... No, it's not drug or terrorist, no. Okay. No.

Like, pedophile type of thing? I know we have some pedophiles in our neighborhood, but... It's along those lines, yeah. Okay. If he's that bad, then, why would not... Why the law enforcement wouldn't be engaged and taken him in? He's never been convicted of anything. Oh.

A senior sporting figure appeared in Dun Laoghaire District Court today on charges of unlawful carnal knowledge and indecent assault on three women, a man and a girl. On April 6, 1993, George Gibney stood in court. charged with multiple indecent sexual assaults on minors. It was a huge moment, one of the first ever high-profile sexual abuse cases taken before the courts in Ireland. The offences were alleged to have occurred between January 1967...

and December 1979. The courtroom was packed, with survivors and their families, with journalists and some fellow coaches. There was no room left in the public gallery. The accused, a 45-year-old man from Dublin who cannot be identified for legal reasons, was arrested on foot of a Gartha warrant issued on the 2nd of April. But the allegations George Gibney faced split Irish swimming.

In the court that day, amid the crowd, were George Gibney's two assistant coaches. One who believed he was innocent, and one who believed he was guilty. Did I think he was capable of it? Immediately I heard it, yeah, I did. The idea that he might molest children was the furthest from my mind. I'm convinced to this day that he groomed the parents before he groomed.

the swimmers that he abused. He manipulated them. He was a master manipulator. This is Carol Walsh. She was George Gibney's assistant coach, and that day as he stood on the dock, she believed he was guilty. He was, yeah. He was a broken man. You know, he was beaten. This is John Mullins. He was George Gibney's other assistant coach. But that day in the courtroom, he believed Gibney was innocent. He kept saying, look, this is...

concocted, you know, I'm perfectly innocent, you know, you have to believe me, you know, pray for me, this kind of thing. One thing was clear. As the gallery watched him scurry from the courtroom that day, Most believed George Gibney was going to jail. Yeah, hugely positive that he was going to get put away. Definitely. I felt a bit sorry for him. You know, he changed completely. I mean, he was...

Extremely vulnerable then, when the noose was tied in. In Irish law, complainants in sexual assault cases have a right to anonymity. So to protect this, Gibney wasn't named publicly. So at this point, the wider public had no idea that Ireland's famous Olympic swimming coach was being accused of some of the worst crimes imaginable. And George Gibney was intent on keeping it that way. He very quickly surrounded himself with a powerful legal team.

Judge William Hamill remanded the man on his own bail of £2,000 and on an independent surety also of £2,000 to appear at Donnery District Court on the 20th of April. And that first day in Dun Laoghe would be the start of a bitter 16-month legal case that would get stranger and stranger. It would end with the inexplicable.

Hi there, how are you? We're here to see John, it's Mark and Ciaran. Thank you. I meet with John Mullins at a South Dublin hall. His garage is full of logbooks and diaries from 50 years of working and swimming. That's George's writing. Some of the files we find belong to his old boss. You owe this.

The idea that he might molest children was furthest from my mind. You know, he'd be the sort of man that, if we were in the car together and we were passing a church, he'd bless himself. You know that. Not many people do that, you know, and it was, and you definitely wouldn't, you know, I often use bad language. I'd never swear in front of Gibney or tell him a mucky joke or anything.

Never. You know, you just... It's like being with a priest, really. In a way. Over on the other side of the city is Carol Walsh's house. The size of that bag sounds promising. We found an old bag that contains all her old swimming log books and notebooks from the Gibney era. Gibney's own personal stamp is on lots of the books and diaries.

Because he had so much, he had so much stuff on swimming. Like this is the tip of the iceberg for my stuff, right? There's bags upstairs with stuff in it. Just like John. Carol worked for Gibney at the Trojan Swimming Club, which was based in New Park Comprehensive School in Dublin. And look at this. So it's the incomplete book of training games and gimmicks. Yeah. By Bob Steele. And then inside, we can see the stamps of George Gibney. And then inside it says...

If you see somebody without a smile, give them yours. And then there's a drawn smiley face. My two boys loved swimming in Newport, all their friends. We'd been there two and a half years. They'd made great friends and they loved it. I told them that we had to leave Trojan. I said, you know, it's just your dad and myself feel that it's for your own safety. And Michael said to me, is it, ma'am, because of what George, about George and the girls?

And I said, what do you mean about the girls? And he said about this girl, he tried to kiss her and he tried to, he put his hands up her jumper. And I said, why didn't you tell me? And he said, I don't know. You know, I'm touching you. God, the work I put in. Much more gentle with him now. Yeah.

As I talk with John Mullins about those times following George Gibney being charged, he reveals something. And it's something I didn't know. And it just kind of drops out of nowhere. You know, I suppose people are wondering, well... Did he know anything? Did he cover up? And when I think about it, I stood his bail, actually. And I remember people saying, how the hell have you got a thousand? It was a thousand euro, no, a thousand pounds at the time.

When did you get a thousand pounds? You got a thousand pounds. You know, even his relatives wouldn't abandon him then. But I was still... I could hardly believe it, you know, because I told you, you know, that I never saw any sign of any odd behavior or, you know, child grooming or anything inappropriate at all.

But then did you not question whether you should stand bail at that point when those accusations were so grave? Not at the time, no. I didn't think he was... I thought he was being falsely accused. I hadn't even heard rumours, you see, but I'm just thinking back, that was strange. You know, the phone calls early in the morning. I remember, you know, early mornings.

We'd be training and a phone would ring the sports centre at five o'clock in the morning, half past five for half an hour. Very good. Okay, try and be relaxed as possible, as little splash as possible. Any splash, it's wasted energy. Try and enter the arm in nice and smoothly, and then pulling underneath it. Try once more going out, full stroke, with at least one breath halfway out.

Little things like that, when I think back, were a bit strange. Okay. I'd be at one end of the pool and he'd be in there, take the phone call in a... a room and off the poolside. I just heard the phone ringing, go and answer it. Or, oh yeah, now it all comes back. Yeah, sometimes I didn't answer that phone. And there'd be silence. No, that's come back to me. And I'd say, I think it's for you, George. You know, without... And he'd go and take it, and it was for him.

I'd have gone back coaching the kids and he'd have stayed in that room at the end of the pool on the phone for sometimes a long time, half an hour or so. I remember thinking it was very odd that... mysterious call early in the morning and a long conversation. And it was only looking back that I think those things were odd. And another occasion I went...

He arranged accommodation for me and a female swimmer again in the States. I found myself in an apartment in a motel. This woman was in the bedroom and I slept. in the lounge. You know, there were just the two of us. You know, that just would not be allowed now in any circumstances. What age would the swimmer have been at that time? About 15.

You know, whether these were traps, that would be... I don't know. Have you thought about that? Yeah. How would they be traps? Pardon? How would they be traps? Well, traps, you know, for me to put a... You know, so you've got something on me.

Right, I've brought a long arrow here to demonstrate the front crawl arm action and breathing and the head turning to the side with the chin into the shoulder when she's taking a breath. Just pillowing her ear on the water there each time, pulling underneath her. I find it really... The element of Gibney coming and asking you to post bail was really interesting. Well, he sat in there with me, in that room, and he was very humble.

You know, as if he'd had the stuffing knocked out of him, and he was kind of desperate. He wanted me to believe he was innocent of... malicious charges. And it was very convincing too. I felt a bit sorry for him in some way. Not only because I thought he was being... Pre-judged. You know, also, he seemed to have had...

He thought he got some sort of help from some sort of religious order too. Some conventers, you know, that were praying for him or saying masses for him. You know, this kind of thing. It was definitely a shock. How do you feel about being the man who's done that now? I think I'd have done it again in the same circumstances. Well done.

As a result of the charges, George Gibney was suspended on full pay as head coach of Trojans. John Mullins was chosen to take over his duties. But Gibney was still influential in swimming, and he'd still be seen poolside at galas around the country. And there was a growing divide between the people who believed him, Ireland's great Olympic coach.

and people like Carol Walsh, who believed the survivors. Just pillowing her ear on the water there each time. Pulling underneath her. I remember every single Irish coach... sided with George. And I remember even, I remember walking into the Guinness pool and I had a guy who was on a Rotary scholarship from Harvard. And I remember walking into the Guinness pool, right, with the team. We walked in, we went upstairs, sat at the front of a section of the pool and...

Every coach behind me stood up, walked over behind George. All the other coaches. I was left. sitting with this poor man from Harvard, not knowing the ins and outs of Irish swimming, looking over at George Gibney, Derry O'Rourke, Gerard Doyle, all the coaches from... all over the place, all going over and siding with him. And it was a public display of, you know, you're doing this to this poor man. You're doing a great job.

As we continue to go through box after box, John Mullins finds a letter from June of 1993. In it, he says that he feels that he too is on trial. I would like assurances from you particularly that I'm not suspected of being involved in the sort of actions and abuses that George Gimmie's been charged with. Yeah. So that must have been something you were feeling at that time. Oh, yeah.

But, you know, it's just sort of... Well, obviously the parents must have felt let down and it's clear what was going on, you know, there's a lot of bad feeling. Then my husband had just changed jobs. And he got a lovely car. And, of course, I wanted to drive it. Took it over to early morning swimming. And when I came out...

somebody, it was a big flat rock, and they put it on the boot of the car and they dragged it across the whole boot. And that was just, you know, shut up and leave them alone. So let's try and follow it up now and simulate that by pulling underneath you and a nice quick breath to the side each time. So front crawl, arms and legs from there right into the wall. Ready? Go.

So by the end of 1993, Gibney and his legal team were attempting to stop the trial going ahead at all. Well done. Well done. Cases of historic sex abuse like this were quite a new problem for the Irish judicial system to deal with. Gibney's lawyers brought an appeal to the Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, to argue that their client couldn't receive a fair trial. And so Gibney had bought himself some more time. Elsewhere.

things seemed to be getting stranger and stranger. I got a phone call to say, you're ruining a good man's life, you know, and it's none of your business. There were anonymous calls. I was getting phone calls from this man. I presume it was a man. It could have been a woman, but I think it was a man. And it was, they had something over the phone. It's really cloaking a dagger over the phone. They were talking into it.

And they would say something about one of the parents of a group of swimmers was in Opus Dei and he was helping George. During that time, I got a phone call to say what time my kids were out of school, you know, and it should just be the time that the kids got out of school. And I'd be like a mad woman, you know.

It was, like, just mad, you know? It was an awful time, a really awful time. You know, somebody actually put flyers on the car windscreen. Yeah, this is it. This was on the cars. George had given us... charged at Dunnary Court last July week with 17 charges of perverted child abuse from both girls and boys. There were two charges of statutory rape. One of these victims was 11 years old.

Mr Jay Mullins has gone independent bail of £2,000 for Mr Gibney. As the same people are still involved in New Park poolers were present when these sexual abuses were taken. That's kind of insinuating that I was there. Can you guarantee the safety of your child? As divisions between those supporting Gibney and those who believed he was guilty increased, so did the rumour and the speculation and the tension.

Rumours went around that George was working in a camera shop out in Dun Laoghaire, right? And then I got an anonymous letter in Glenelg. It was left on the notice board for me. And it was that... I think I found it recently. I found a photocopy of it, maybe. That... photographs would be circulated of me, this is exactly what it said, me being ridden by a swimmer.

and an underage somewhere or something. And I brought it down to the police and they looked for fingerprints. There were none on it. And it was typewritten. And... And then I was thinking, like, if he's in a camera shop, he'll superimpose my face or something. And, you know, who knew what could... Oh, it was awful, yeah.

How are you doing? Yeah, good. Good to see you again. This is the journalist Paul Kimmage, and we've gone back to Dun Laoghaire in Dublin to retrace some steps he took back in 1993. Not really familiar with Dun Laoghaire at all. And I'm looking at it now, and it seems much smaller than it was, and the road seems much smaller than it was at the time. Before following the case in the courts, Paul had actually interviewed Gibney at the start of his own journalism career.

where Gibney regarded him as one of the best swimming coaches in the world. It wasn't in Ireland. But a man who wasn't sure to belong his own trumpet. Paul is one of Ireland's best-known sports journalists. He's renowned for his work in exposing drug cheats in cycling. But many years before he helped bring about a lifetime ban for Lance Armstrong, he was in the courthouse to see a major figure in Irish sports sit in the dock.

My most vivid memory of it is obviously when we were inside. It's a small courthouse. And the people who were there, I remember Gary, obviously, I'm pretty sure his dad was there. Chalky was there and Chalky's wife was there. I remember that, sitting with him. And the tension, I suppose, on their faces as Gibney was brought in and for that very brief hearing at the time.

You wanted to make eye contact with Gibney. You wanted a sense of how he was feeling at the time. You know, finally. Well, because this absolute bastard, what he'd done, you wanted a sense that it was fucking hurting him. He had been untouchable for such a long time. I certainly did. I wanted a sense of how is he feeling now? He's not alone. He's not in a small room.

with a vulnerable kid anymore. He's facing now the full weight of the law and the full weight of what he's done. How does that make him feel? So you're looking for that. And then obviously the outstanding memory then was coming outside and the car. I mean, I'm looking to see where it came out of. My memory is that it came out of the side street.

and hit another car that was coming down or up the road at the time. I'm trying to figure out actually where it came from. This might help. Have a look at that. Okay. Gibney left the court that day in Dun Laoghaire via a back exit. And as he was being driven away, with his head down to avoid photographers, his car smashed into some oncoming traffic. Oh, right.

And there's the railings. See, there's the railings there on the other side of the road here. There's that pillar there with the railings. I don't know. And as the crowd predictably gathered around, Gibney had to sit there and wait in the back seat. his head covered by a pile of coats until the police came.

Okay, yeah, that's it, that's it. That makes sense then. He obviously was parked in the police, beside the police centre. They had the car parked in the police centre. So just at the back of the courthouse? At the back of the courthouse. They would have taken him out the back of the courthouse and he would have come out the side of the police station and hit the car.

as he was turning left up the road here. It looks like he's turning left there. But my God, I'm just looking at the damage on the car. I mean, that's a surprise because I hadn't realised there was so much damage to the car. Jesus. But again, interesting that the sense of our pursuit that has lasted, what are we now, 30 odd years later? That was the first day of it, and he's been running ever since.

But presumably you thought Gibney was done at that point, did you? Oh, absolutely. 100%. I mean, you know, you had, from what Gary had told me, the testimony of the... People who dealt with him and I just thought, well, there's no way that he can get off of this. I mean, that was absolute astonishment that he did afterwards. Absolute astonishment.

I still to this day do not understand how that happened. I do not understand. It is absolutely incomprehensible to me that some judges could sit round and make the decision.

that they did. It's incomprehensible. In other news today the High Court in Dublin has ruled that a senior sporting figure facing 27 charges of indecency and carnal knowledge of young girls can prevent his trial going ahead. When I got that final call, my youngest was, or my little boy at the time was six weeks old and I took the call and I was actually feeding him at the time and I took the call and...

Whoever had said it to me said that, you know, it's over. They're not going to pursue it. It's finished. Trish Carney remembers where she was on July 21st, 1994. As we know, Trish was part of the case against Gibney. And on that day, at the High Court in Dublin, Gibney's lawyer successfully stopped his trial from going ahead. I remember them saying, I'm so sorry, I'm so, so sorry. And as I say, my little fellow was feeding away at the time and I just...

It was like such a weird thing. It was like, that's then, this is now, it's over. And so, with very little fanfare. The whole case against Gibney collapsed. The man's legal team successfully argued that a delay in initiating the prosecution infringed their client's right to a fair trial. The length of time which has elapsed between the date on which the offences were alleged and the date of any trial raised a presumption of prejudice which could not be avoided or cured.

Gibney's lawyers argued that too much time had passed since the alleged offences took place, that the dates of the offences weren't specific enough, and that Gibney couldn't hope to find witnesses to establish an alibi. Some of these offences happened just 12 years previously. Courts in Ireland now regularly convict child sexual abusers for crimes committed decades ago. In fact, in 2020.

A man was jailed for child sex offences going as far back as 1968. That's the very same year as Gibney's earliest charges, in 1994. He's going to get away on this technicality. A thing to point out is that there was only 27 charges. And the reason there's only 27 charges is because those days you had to have specifics, you had to know dates, and you had to know places.

So like you had to be able to say it happened on this date or this time. Perhaps the most striking argument advanced successfully by Gibney. was that he had no diaries or documents that would help him remember his whereabouts or his activities at the time. No diaries and no documents. And that really annoyed me that... he couldn't remember. This was a man that had diaries for everything, right? So I couldn't understand how this could be a defense.

No, it hasn't got the stamp on it. Both John Mullins and Carl Walsh agree that George Gibney kept meticulous records. He actually had a room full of diaries and logbooks. The whole thing about the room, you know, and all the diaries.

And the logbooks were a huge part of his whole ethos as a swim coach. And he had all his own diaries. So, like, how could he, was he allowed use that he had no... recollection and he didn't keep a diary when he had them he had a room full of them you know and you're certain of that 100%

I do remember feeling gutted, absolutely, like, punched when it was said, no, it's over. Because, you know, despite being... that belief that he'd never, there's always a part of you hoped and wished that it would happen. So I do remember just that. You know, I do remember my silence. And that was that. It was decided that George Gibney couldn't get a fair trial. He was a free man. And as people were wondering how he'd managed it...

He was already planning what he was going to do next. He was never convicted. So do you feel as certain today, as he did back then, that he's guilty? Why would I not? You know, I talked to people that he raped. I talked to... People that were abused by him, you know, and I've talked to people whose lives are ruined by him. So, yes. And if he's not a paedophile. Why didn't he stand up and say, what you're saying is wrong? Why didn't he do that? That's what I would have done.

Do you feel when you think back at that, think back about Gibney now, do you feel a sense of bitterness towards him directly? Or is there any sense in your head that you think he mightn't 100% be guilty? Oh, no, I don't feel any bitterness, but I'm sure he's guilty. You know, when I think back the way he was, you know, manipulative. When did the moment come where you... Change your mind from this guy, I believe this guy, to I think this guy is guilty. When he disappeared.

For a list of organisations in the UK that can provide support for survivors of sexual abuse, go to bbc.co.uk. forward slash action line. If you are a former swimmer with George Gibney or have any information, however minor, that you feel could help the producers, please contact us confidentially That's whereisgeorgegibney, all one word, at bbc.co.uk. And you can find us on social at Second Captains. Where Is George Gibney is a Second Captains production for BBC Sounds.

The series is written and produced by me, Mark Horgan, and Ciarán Cassidy. It's co-produced with Maria Horgan, and editing is also by Ciarán Cassidy. Research and fact-checking is by Cillian Down, our composer is Michael Fleming, and sound mixing is by Jair MacDonald. Our theme tune is by Aaron Desner. The executive producer for the BBC is Dylan Haskins and the commissioning editor is Jason Phipps. You can hear episode four of Where is George Gibney?

It's called He Upped and Vanished, from next Thursday, 17th of September. And you can subscribe in the free BBC Sounds app. I'm criminal psychologist Dr. Julia Shaw. And I'm stand-up comedian Sophie Hagen. And this is a trailer for our new podcast, Bad People. Stories about people that most of us would consider evil.

People that do the unspeakable. We are speaking about the unspeakable. And the stories are so good and often unexpected. And most importantly to me, it's not just about the gory details. Subscribe to Bad People now on BBC Sounds. There'll be a new episode every week and each is an independent story so you don't even have to listen from the beginning. Just dive in wherever.

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