BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. You're about to listen to a brand new episode of Steak Knife, the new series of cover. episodes will be released weekly wherever you get your podcasts but if you're in the UK you can listen to the latest episodes right now first on BBC Sounds. And just so you know, the following podcast contains interviews that some listeners may find upsetting and some occasional strong language.
The second one. There, second. So number... 23. 23 there, isn't it? This is Seamus Kearney. 17, 19, yeah, 21, 23, okay. Is that two doors there? We're looking for a house. See, I think, yeah, it's that one, isn't it? 25, 23, it's that one, yeah, the second one. Yeah. Second door. That's it. Can we get out for one second? Is that alright?
The house we're looking for is in Lennadoon, on the edge of West Belfast. So the flats are gone. They were here. The flats are right here. Oh, they're right outside? Yeah, right there. Right there. OK. That small one, see the box window? Yeah. There, that's my room. You've seen everything? Yeah. It's a panoramic view, like. The Kearneys used to live in an inner-city area of Belfast called the Short Strand, until loyalist gangs burned down houses close to their home.
And that was the trigger for my mum to get out of there because we lived directly behind the church and they tried to burn the church to the ground. That was my first real impression of the war coming to us. We didn't go looking at war, the war came to us. you know, from a family point of view. The family moved from the Short Strand to what was known as the Refugee Huts, makeshift temporary accommodation for homeless nationalist families on the Glen Road. So my mum was on her own.
With four of us, there was my sister, Anne. And Anne left. She left once we hit the refugee huts. She says, I'm going to stay in here. And she went to England, never came back. What age was Anne at that time, sorry? 16. And that's where we come to this house, high on a hill, overlooking Lenadoon. This is where 14-year-old Seamus, his younger twin brothers Michael and Sean and their widowed mother lived. It was called squatting. He just squatted in the house.
There's a family leaving 23 Glenway driving on a dune, why don't you take the house? And after a few years, five years or something, she got her rent back. But everybody was doing that. There's so many refugees coming from all parts of the city. They were getting burnt out. We're hoping to record inside, to have a look around the old house and to tell the story of Seamus' family and how everything changed as everyone left, one by one.
I'm not sure of anybody in. But yeah, this is the house. Will I talk? Do you want me to talk? Or do you want to talk? I'll talk. Okay. The two of us stand in the doorway. Microphone in hand, but there's no answer. I don't think anyone's home. There's anybody here. Do you feel good? Memory's been here. Yeah, we're sad, feel like. But... What's sad? Well, I left here and got caught that day, 28th of January, 77. And then Mick left here and was killed.
Seamus's younger brother Michael, or Mick as he was known, was murdered. His body was found lying on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. It's decades later, and Seamus is still trying to find out exactly what happened to Michael. Who killed him, and why was he left on the border? When he first started asking around for information in Republican circles, one person was mentioned.
So he says, just remember one name. Freddy Scabattici. Here's me, who the hell's he? I says, is he an ice cream man? He says, no. He says, as far as I know, he was in the IRA and he was running a unit. Just keep that in your head, right? But apparently he had Michael. Oh, that's your key, sir? Yeah, Jesus Christ. Back in 1979, on one June afternoon, Michael left this house for the final time. Today, Seamus is retracing that final fateful journey of his younger brother.
A journey that took weeks. Literally weeks. I just looked at this this morning. And then... That's him there. What age is he here? He's, uh... He's 19. When Michael was leaving the house for the last time, Seamus was in prison. And there's a few things you need to know about Seamus.
He joined the youth wing of the IRA in Lenadoon when he was in his mid-teens, running roadblocks in the area for the IRA as a 15-year-old. He joined the IRA itself as soon as he turned 18. When I was in the IRA, I wasn't really discussing anything with him. he was more interested in going to the dances going to cars he loved old cars fixing them driving them around in 1977
Seamus was convicted of conspiring to murder a member of the security forces, as well as possessing firearms and ammunition. He was sentenced to 14 years in prison. He later joined the IRA blanket protests as a prisoner. And by June 1979, Seamus was two years into a sentence in the notorious H-Blocks prison. And it didn't seem to be really...
interested in it. That's why I got surprised when someone told me that he was in the IRA. And I asked Sean about that, and he says, he says, you're the reason why I joined. That's the only reason. That was the H block thing. He was upset. So I felt guilty. You know what I mean? I'll always feel guilty. I feel guilty for the rest of my life.
Michael Kearney was an army volunteer attached to the Belfast Brigade and was stopped by British troops while in active service. On June 20th, 1979, Michael Kearney was stopped by British troops not far from his home in West Belfast. Michael was arrested by the RUC, or the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the name of the police force in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. He was searched and was found to be in possession of keys of a commandeered vehicle.
He was brought to Castlereagh Station for questioning for three days. Where he spent three days under severe interrogation. When Michael was released from police custody, he followed the standard IRA procedure for someone in his position. Upon release, the IRA member must meet with what was known as their OC officer. That's the officer in command of their unit. They would then write a debrief report.
I would have to refer back to his debrief report, which I've got. A debrief report is a document that outlines exactly what happened to the IRA volunteer when they were in custody. What they said, what they didn't say. This is Michael's actual debrief report. It was wrote, he got out on that Saturday and he wrote it that Saturday. Because his OC told him, write out your debrief report.
He wrote it that Saturday. That's it. The only break from interviews was when they went down for their meals and they put me down to my cell for my meals, which I refused to take. During this day, I was constantly humiliated, slapped, punched in the stomach, clipped across the balls and made to do physical exercises. At about quarter to ten, I broke and told them about the flat. They threw me back to the cell.
During his interrogation in Castle Ray, Michael told police where a small hidden stash of waterlogged explosives were in a shop in Lenadoon. At about 12 o'clock they came back and told me they got the stuff from the flat. They then told me that they were charging me with hijacking, membership and conspiracy to murder and kidnapping because forensic they said proved that I was in the car and I was caught with the keys in my possession. About 12 o'clock they brought me up.
and said they were charging me with all these charges unless I give them more information. I told them I wish to be charged and wanted out of Castlereagh. This is when they made a deal. They said... If we let you go, will you become an informer for us? Michael said he didn't know. Maybe. He'd later say he just wanted the interrogation to end, to get out of the station. But simply leaving Castlereagh without being charged with anything raised huge suspicions in the IRA.
He got out half two and he met the OC that afternoon. And he says, write out your debrief report, which he did do. He wrote it. That's it. The OC officer told him he'd have to report to the newly formed internal security unit of the IRA. There's nothing to worry about. So he went up and picked them up. He says, there's two cars waiting on you in the car park at the Glen Owen. This is where we're driving to now, the Glen Owen roundabout.
where Michael Carney was to be picked up by the internal security unit. So our mic's getting dropped off, and this is June the 25th, 79, Monday. Monday afternoon. Straight on. So he drafts him off here. Mick walks there. That's it. That's it here. Yeah, there. And he goes into the car park, which is... Go ahead. You can go right into the car park. There. He drives in. Mick walks in there. Okay, so this... Do you see that? Yeah.
And so two cars are waiting here. There's two vehicles waiting here. Is this where Michael would have first met Scabatici right here? He would have met Freddy Scabatici here, in this car park, near the Glenone. And it would have been Monday the 25th of June. And he probably wondered what's happening here. These are all strangers. At the end of the day, he's only 20. He would be...
wary of these other strangers. You know, he doesn't know them. So these vehicles will be waiting. He doesn't know where he's going. On June 25th, 1979, two cars left the car park near the Glenone roundabout. The lookout car, or the scout car with Freddy Scabattici, drove 50 yards ahead of the second car, which was following with Michael. They drove south out of Belfast. Watch.
Knowing the IRA and security and all that, he didn't know where the hell he was going. He was actually oblivious. I think he was probably apprehensive. At some stage on the journey, they crossed the border into the Republic of Ireland. The fact is that he's now crossed the border and that doesn't look good. I think we're close to it here. I think it's been one of these houses. Ellie says that's where they're all taken. It's like a safe house. We're outside another house.
This time we're 15 minutes across the border into the Republic of Ireland, in a town called Undark. This was once an old IRA safehouse used regularly for interrogations. Bit run down looking. It's fanced off now. In June 1979, Michael Kearney was driven to this house. So they move on to here. He hasn't spoke to Skepp because he's in the other car. He's in the scout car. And all they've been doing is following the scout car.
Michael was held and interrogated at this house for 17 days. Now he's with Scap here. Yeah, he's in this house. From Monday, looks like Monday, June the 25th, right through until... The 12th? That's a long time. In the secret car park recordings. Freddy Scappettici outlines that by June 1979, the time of this Michael Carney interrogation, he was in the IRA for 10 years. And did you start as, you must have been a young man going back to early 1970s.
Scabaticci grew up in the markets area of Belfast. When the Troubles began in 1969, he was a married bricklayer. 23 years of age. How long were you in the organization? 23 was older than many IRA volunteers, and he quickly rose through the ranks to become a commanding officer of the markets. And when the British government introduced the highly controversial policy of jailing suspected IRA members without trial...
He was also one of the first IRA leaders to be captured. Jailed on the day internment without trial began in 1971. When Scappaticci was released in January 1974, he became the OC of the Belfast Brigade of the IRA, but was re-arrested just a few months later. a capture celebrated in newspapers in the UK as the jailing of a top-ranking terrorist. He was eventually released on the day the British government ended the policy of interment without trial, December 5th.
1975. After almost a decade of war. the IRA was developing a serious problem with informers. Recruiting members of the IRA became a major tactic for both the special branch of the RUC, which is the Intelligence Wing of the Northern Irish Police, and British Army Intelligence. Ever since last December, the Northern Ireland security forces have had one secret weapon in their struggle against the provisional IRA, the Informa.
200 people have been arrested as a result of informers, or as the police prefer to call them, converted terrorists. Well, do you think this information is being given voluntarily? Well, a lot of it's... Depends what you mean by voluntary. A lot of pressure has been put on people to become informers. When I was going with one girl, they even told me I was two-timing, which I didn't think anybody knew about.
So they knew a lot about your background and about your associates. They knew an awful lot about it. That the informers are dominated not by idealism, but by fear. Fear of the IRA and fear of the police, who, he says, or blackmailing them. To counteract the issue of informers, the IRA formed an internal security unit in the autumn of 1978.
The modus operandi of this new unit was to hunt down informers within its ranks, to interrogate suspects and to deter others. They would famously come to be known as the Nutting Squad. due to the way suspected informers were executed with a bullet to the head. By 1979, Freddy Scappaticci was second in command of the IRA Internal Security Unit. Also by 1979, and something we'll discuss in much more detail later, Freddy Scappettigi had become an experienced agent for British intelligence.
detailing to his army handlers exactly what was happening to Michael Carney. In those secret car park recordings. Freddy Scappaticci describes what happens when someone like Michael Carney is brought to a safe house for interrogation. The standard procedure was to strip them, debug them. to see if they're wired up. Just weeks previously
An IRA arms dump containing over 40 bombs was found in the Short Strand area in the city. But I think when they came in and said, Gap said, what about the Short Strand bombs? That's the alarm going, what? You were involved in that, weren't you? Yeah, they were caught. Yeah. You're the informer. So Michael was being interrogated by a British military officer in the shape of Freddy Scappaticci. We also know.
On July the 6th, it was Scabatici who told the handler that Michael was court-martialed. Scabatici has told the handler that this guy here, Michael Kearney, has actually... At his court-martial, he's been found guilty. But he's put in an appeal. But says, it is unlikely that the appeal is going to succeed. That's the exact words. It's unlikely that the appeal is going to succeed.
Scabatici's British Army handlers were aware of the IRA court-martial and the interrogation of Michael Carney in Dundalk. In fact, we now know that British military intelligence and the RUC special branch were informed on three separate occasions over this time that Michael was to be killed. On July 11th, Michael is told he's leaving.
He's told he's gone home. Michael's told he's gone home. And they take him to the Imperial Hotel. And there's a guy who comes in and sees him. He had a pain to heart in front of him. Or Mac. Says he thinks he's going home. We don't know exactly what Michael Kearney was told when he left the safe house. We just know it was July 11th. And there's the last sighting of Michael having a drink with two men in a nearby hotel.
Maybe they got Michael drunk before I bring them over here. Yeah. Yeah. I was told that about them. He says they usually get them drunk. So they're not really sure where they are. You know, they're chilled out. It's sort of an anesthetism of the drink. We're back in the car on the final part of our journey. We've been in the car together for five hours now.
And he must have been saying to himself, he's that stupid, like, where are we going? Michael is being driven along these windy country roads. He's going west along the border rather than north and back to his home in Belfast. And he's not blindfolded on that leg. He's wondering, what the hell are we doing here? Why are we going this way? I think he's anxious. You know? I think he's worried.
While Michael is being driven along these country roads, another car has left East Tyrone in Northern Ireland and is journeying south. This car contains the shooter, the man who pulled the trigger. I've seen that. Everybody thinks, oh, everybody in the RA were shooters, they weren't. There's actually a fairly small amount, you know. That is a bit out of the way. Normally, they don't go this far.
You know what I mean? It is a bit out of the way. Seamus has told me he's done this journey in his head a million times over. That he thinks about it all the time. When he's actually travelled to where Michael was shot. He followed the location details of a newspaper report at the time. But something extraordinary happened as we approached the border.
So do you know the route from here or do you want me to pop it into the... I'll put it in, will you? Yeah. And we came the other way. We came from Newton-Butler. Gotcha. Yeah, I'll just pull it in here. So it's the Newton-Butler to Clovis Road, 50 yards. Michael Kearney, body shot in the head was found 50 yards from the border on the road.
between Newton Butler and Clonus at two o'clock yesterday morning. That's it. Newton Butler and Clonus. It's found 50 yards from the border on the road between Newton Butler and Clonus. You're saying it's on the way to Newtown Butler? Aye. You sure? I realised Seamus had never actually been to the spot his brother was killed. And not 100, no, because we went with that. It says 50 yards. That's the only thing we used, me and Sean. Was there another route? Well... In the days before our journey...
I found original old video coverage filmed by the BBC at the scene of Michael's murder. It's raw footage, no audio, most of which has never been broadcast. Towards the end of the old film... The front of a bar called the Leggy Kelly Inn comes into shot. And a turn in the road where the body is found seems to match with the Google Maps of a nearby road today. But this location is nowhere near where Seamus had gone before.
Does that ring a bell for you? Leggy Kellyanne. Does that ring any bells? No. The Leggy Kellyanne is on the footage. Is it? Yeah. And it's beside that? Yeah. That car park? I believe it's just further on to the right. Yeah, okay. There's... Do you want me to drive to Leggy Kelly Inn and then take it from there? Yeah. Can we do that? Yeah.
The newspaper details he'd followed all these years were wrong. And so now the plan has changed. No longer are we following the route Seamus knows. We're now looking to find the place Michael was shot dead for the very first time. As we drive towards the Leggy Kelly Inn, Seamus is still unsure. No, that's not the road we're on. See, it says 50 yards from the Clonus border.
I know it said 50 yards from the Fermanagh-Monaghan border. Did it? Yeah. The roads are incredibly windy, and they're new roads for Seamus. He's never been here before. I've never seen that laggy county in this way. Yeah. He's seeing what we think is his brother's final path for the first time. We're in Monaghan now again, see? Monaghan? Yeah, so we're crossed in and out. She's very interesting. Seamus' manner changes.
He's now more anxious, he's more upset. Now I'm starting to feel anxious. I didn't get it at the Imperial, no. But I feel it here. Why do you feel it here? It's just like a feeling of sickness. Like, what the hell is he going through? You know what I mean? It's sickness. We cross four times over the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland in the space of eight minutes. County Monaghan and Cavanagh in the Republic of Ireland and County Fermanagh in Northern Ireland.
Almost 45 years since Michael took his last journey to here. You know what I mean? For doing what? For what? He hasn't done anything. A cardinal sin like has it? He's spoken way into them. He's put his trust in them. This is what they're going to have. This is going to have they're going to repay him. You know what I mean? And still we're traveling. His head. His head will be away. Or Mike's head will be gone by now. He would be wondering, where the hell are we going, boys?
Seamus is coming to the end of his journey to find out exactly what happened to Michael. This is a journey that began when he was released from prison in 1986, seven years after his brother's death. One of the first things he did when he was released was to meet up with his mother. And she had a request. Something she wanted to ask him. Want to get out of prison? Got out on Valentine's Day, 1986.
Went for a walk with my mum. She was saying about, I want you to go back in time and find out what happened to my son, Michael, your brother. I says, Mum, I wouldn't even know where to start. And I'm with the IRA. The IRS shat him. He was an informer and he probably deserved it. I probably would have shat him myself. He says, I stood by you for nearly 10 years and them H-blacks in that blanket protest.
over four years on that blanket protest. I stood by you every day, even when Meghal was executed. I still stood by you, which she did. So I need you to stand by me now. So that's how it began. Seamus started to investigate the death of his brother. An IRA man investigating the IRA. He said there was mutiny? Mutiny? Among the volunteers over what happened to him? What the hell's he doing, Len, on that border?
Seamus would hear about the Glen Owen roundabout, the safe house in Dundalk. Was he involved? He says, yes, Freddie Scabattici was involved in the court-martial and execution of your brother. He was told about the notorious enforcer Freddy Scappaticci. So, I smelled a rat then, there's something not right here. Scappaticci, who he also learned, was a double agent, called Steakknife.
So basically, if he was here today, he would say, yes, Seamus, I was involved in execution of your brother. I played a role. But I wasn't the only one. Seamus would learn that British intelligence knew where Michael was and where he was being taken. And crucially, they knew he wasn't an informer.
We arrive at the Leggy Kelly Inn. They have Matt here. Do you know what I mean, Mark? Yeah. The pub stands alone. There's nothing nearby. It's one of those rural pubs with a large car park in the middle of nowhere. So where we are on the border here is we've just crossed back into Cavan from Fermanagh. So are we in the Republic? We're in the Republic here. If you go 40 yards there...
We're in Fermanagh. Oh, eh? So, from the footage, you can see a... Going this way, it's a welcome to Cavan, and it will be a Fermanagh sign that way. And I think there's a turn-off to the right. Do you want to walk down there? Which I think is where Michael was killed. Right. Are you bringing your phone? Yeah. Michael Kearney was driven to the Leggy Kelly Inn on the Cavan-Fermanagh border on the night of July 11th.
It would have been dark when he arrived. Everything closed. The other car already waiting ominously on its own. I didn't see the lag of Kellyanne. I've never seen that in the film. So it's close to here. We're working off the old archive news report. The rushes also contain footage of the welcome to signs either side of the border. That sign for the Lakey Kelly Inn. The empty car park. And a body. Michael. On his back on the side of the road. Is his face bloodied?
We look at the old footage, but it's difficult to get our bearings. I think that what kind of throws it a little bit is how the hedges have been cut down. Aye, back then. But... If we were to go over at this angle, can we walk over to this angle? Is that still there? Seamus spots an old tree in the footage. Is it? Yeah. It's a marker. Look, there it is. Isn't it? Yeah. That's it. Yeah. That's it. It's directly there. That's it. I think we've got the spot.
After his mother had spoken to him, Seamus, as you know, started to investigate the murder of his brother. With his IRA connections, he managed to talk to the shooter, the man who killed his brother. The guy comes down from the East Ternal. He's the shooter. Two cars are coming in different directions. One's coming from McGuire's Bridge, Liston Ski, and the other's coming from Clonus, from Dundalk to Clonus.
He's told, you're going to shoot an informer. That's all he's told. And he gets out of the car with the weapon. He says, this big lad gets out. He says, this guy's tall. And he was, I remember, 6'3". And he says, the big lad wasn't hooded and gagged. And he says, I was surprised that he wasn't wearing a hood. Or he wasn't gagged. I think they had to shoot an informer. But the two with him said...
Mike, you're not going home. He accepted it. And he was brave. He says he was brave. And he says, can I say a prayer? Because that would be typical of him. He was allowed to say a prayer. And he started praying. And he says, I come up behind him and shot him twice through the back of the head. He dropped. So you know the man, the child? Yeah. Yeah. How was that? What was that like talking to him?
I work within a context, so does he. It's very hard to explain that. See if you step out of the military context, you may as well just hang yourself. You can't live here, there's no point living. and that I work within a context, a military context, and so did he. He says, I heard there was controversy after that. He says, that was my job, close-up shootings, and I did that.
And he says, I just moved on to the next one. I have a job to do. And you're the same. You're saying, yeah, you were going to shoot your brother yourself as an informant and probably could have, yeah. I'd say, Mike, you fucking betrayed me and betrayed the army. in the Republic, I want to shout him. Because I have that capacity. And so did he. He actually believed I was shooting an informer. That's what he thought, that's what he believed.
That's what it was all about. You know what I mean? There's nothing worse than being in a... Death is nothing to us. It means nothing when you're in a war like that. What's even worse than death is the stigma of an informer or a traitor. That's worse than death. I feel sick, Mark. I'm sorry, Seamus. Imperial Hotel meant nothing to me. But this does.
Seamus is still not sure that we found the spot where Michael was shot. You know, this is just unbelievable. Fuck's sake, he ends up down here. Middle of nowhere. We spot an old petrol station in the distance. It looks like it's been around for years, so we decide to walk to it on the off chance that somebody might remember something. There's a young man at the front of the station. The young man suggests that we talk to his boss.
Is that him? A man in work gear. Boots, a baseball cap appears. He looks to be in his 60s. Hiya. Hiya. Is the garage here long? He looks at us suspiciously. My brother. was shot dead over there. I mean that's 12th of July or something. Incredibly, he remembers the date straight away. 12th of July, 1979. Yeah, he's my brother. And he was told to get out of the car. And when he got out of the car, they shot him.
He confirms the exact location of the shooting. I shot him twice in the back of the head. It was the IRA, but they were actually British agents. Freddie's kept a teacher, yeah. I was in Longcash at the time on the blanket protest. Well, I remember him. I went down, I'd seen him. Did you? I did. They gave him a bit of a hiding. Did they? As far as I mind. You didn't discover him, did you? No, no, no, no, no, no. See that house there straight across?
There was an old man who lived there, and he heard the shots at night. That was it. There was two shots. Yeah. Through Scappaticci, then? Yeah. He was set up by Scappaticci. I remember it was 12th of July, all right. So they said, would you come down and take a look and see if you know him? And you went down? Yes. And when you went down, he was just lying on his back? Yeah. So was the Brits that took him there? He was set up by the Brits? He was set up by the Brits.
And then internal security picked him up on that Monday. Yeah. Freddy Scabattici. So they took him across the border and kept him in Dundalk. You know Steakknife? Steakknife. He's one of the top fucking types for the fucking Brits. For the Brits. The man casually mentions the agent's steak knife. We only had mentioned Freddy Scabattici, but this man knows his code name. He was the head of intel security for the IRA, but he was a double agent.
He got away too handy. Didn't he? And for so long? Nobody touched him. Steak knife got away too handy, says the man. Thanks, Ben. Cheers. Good luck. That's it. We say our goodbyes. After confirmation of the location, Seamus wants to go back. 45 years later, he wants to do something that his brother did. in this very spot. I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to do it. Thank you.
Oh, my God. Mark out. I feel so sad. I really do. I feel it all over the show here. All the way down. I know. I don't know what way to think. It'll just be all. It's such a long journey. And it brings... What I was saying was on the blanket and it just... He's standing in front of that governor that's a fucking day. He said, your brother's dead. He's lying like a dog on the border. He's in Fremont. Oh my God. He says he's fucking lying like a dog.
Shanae. Shanae, as Seamus says. That's that. We leave and start to make our way back to Belfast. I was surprised he wasn't gagged. Isn't that bound? I always found that a bit strange. He's the only one I know. You know why they're usually found on a border road with a bag over their head? They're taped. That didn't happen here. What do you think of that? I never really found that one out. I think part of it is perhaps the fact that this was the first one.
Michael was the first, one of the early victims of steak knife and Freddy Scappartigi's internal security unit. The official investigation will almost certainly confirm that he was brought here from Belfast, hands tied behind his back. shot several times in the head and then left beside this country lane, just 40 yards inside Northern Ireland. Mr Branagh's body was found here in Odessa Street. He had been shot in the head.
The provisional IRA said they killed him because he was an informer. According to this statement, the IRA alleged that Mr. Traynor had been passing information to the police and to the army since June 1976. The spot was deliberately chosen to occupy the British Army and the RUC in the painstaking process of recovering his body beside this country lane, just 40 yards inside Northern Ireland.
They claim that he was passing information to the police until last Thursday. They don't say what happened to him between then and his death here last night. Over the next 18 months. The IRA Internal Security Unit and the British agent Freddy Scavattici murdered more alleged informers. It really was the beginning. My brother was no informant, never has been.
He'd done more work for the H. Black. No way was he an informer. Aye, there's nobody knows a child like his mother. I was Anthony's mother and my Anthony, and I repeat, we've got no proof, no nothing. My child was no informer. How do you feel towards the people who did? Very better indeed, towards them. And all they are is a pegging animal to don't tell them. That's all I can say.
And I hope they get caught over there. All these murders of alleged informers, all the time, there was a British agent watching on. And Skep was regarded as doing good at his job. He was very good. That's what they were saying. You know, he's getting results. What do you think good at his job means?
He's putting bodies on the border. So here, Scap's already working through them. He's cleaning out the touts. Including Arbegal, they're all touts. Scap's already doing a good job. That's how I'd seen. At that point, were you probably agreeing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I would've said something. They're not on that border for nothing.
The idea that Scappaticci was good at his job was an opinion that wasn't just held by people in the IRA like Seamus. I was very conscious all the way through about the chap we call steak knife. And I was not prepared. I did not want to jeopardize him. Because I'd grown up for the fact that that was one of our best secrets. It was our best asset. And our most important secret.
It seems it was also the opinion of Scappaticci's handlers in British intelligence. What exactly did they know? And crucially, when did they know it? If you've been affected by any of the issues in this series, please contact support organisations in your own country.
forward slash action line you can contact the program makers at cover at bbc.co.uk if you have any information you'd like to share or if you or your family have been affected by the steak knife case or similar cases that email again is cover at bbc.co.uk. You can also stay up to date with this series and read more information related to this case by visiting the Steak Knife podcast website. That's bbc.co.uk forward slash steak knife. You'll also find the link there for series one of cover.
which is Where Is George Gibney? And that's a series we're very proud of. So you can catch an episode of that whilst you're waiting for the next Steak Knife, which is out on Friday, December 6th. Steak Knife is written and produced by me, Mark Horgan, and Ciarán Cassidy.
Editing and sound design is also by Ciarán Cassidy. It's co-produced by Paddy Fee. Our composer is Michael Fleming. Sound mixing is by Ger McDonnell. And our theme tune is by Lancome. Assistant commissioners for the BBC are Lorraine Okafuna and Sarah Green. And the commissioning editor for the BBC is Dylan Haskins. Steak Knife is a second Captains and Little Wing production for BBC Sounds. We'll talk to you soon. These stories can't be told in a few minutes.
They need depth. Who can you trust? What can you believe? What are you hearing? Is it right? Like, how would you get to the bottom of something? Listen to World of Secrets. Exposing things that powerful people want to keep hidden. Beauty Boys. I think that investigative reporting is more important than it ever has been. When you have a breakthrough, you think, is this the moment when everything changes?
Delve into a world of secrets. Global BBC investigations and gripping storytelling. World of secrets. Listen on BBC Sounds.