11. Case Update

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Hey everyone, this is Mark Horgan here from the Where Is George Gibney podcast series. This is a case update episode, recorded in November 2023, which also features a live questions and answers recording. taped in Dublin last year. This podcast refers to child sexual abuse, contains interviews that some listeners may find upsetting, and some occasional strong language. And what were you hoping for? I really hoped that other people would get hope. That they would hear my story and not give up.

We're in the National Concert Hall in Dublin in April of last year. And I think that with the podcast, I remember saying to Mark, what about people who are listening and want to do something about it? What do we do? What are you going to say? That's the voice of Burke Harley. And he was like, yeah, we're going to give out numbers. We're going to say email. And I said to him, if they want to email me, because I remember that void. I didn't know where to go.

It was an event we call The Making of Where Is George Gibney, and all the proceeds went to an Irish charity supporting adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse. For many of the contributors to the podcast, it was the first time they met each other. It affected me deeply. when the first podcast came out, that, whoa, people were actually going to hear our story because for years our story was told, but it was told by others.

Survivors that you heard in the series join me on stage, like Burr and Trish Carney, who you're hearing now. Twitter blew up with people saying they were so enraged. And I was like, yeah, you're right. But it did mean an awful lot. It was really important.

Burr and Trish sat beside each other for the whole thing, shoulder to shoulder looking out at this huge arena and audience. You can have no justice, but you still... continue to do very well in life you know you know you can relate and we know what we're talking about to each other without even saying some stuff Just feel a connection, shared shit, I suppose. It felt almost like a final step for them in some ways.

Telling their story to me in their own homes is one thing, but going face to face with members of the public is obviously another. But there was one day I was talking to Mark and I literally, in front of Mark, I went, I was a good swimmer. And it had never occurred to me that I was a good swimmer. I didn't reach my potential, but I don't care because I know with hindsight that I got away from Gibney, which was...

Better than anything. Can I just say, Burr was also a national record holder. They're like elite. Like a 10-time national champion in one year and a national record holder. Like they were properly best of the best. The whole night just felt really special. But the words that stayed with me the most were saved for the very end.

that you want to wrap on Mark I think you have a couple of things I actually got some messages from a couple of people in advance of coming on tonight one of them is from Judy one of the women that came forward in the last two episodes who I spoke to a lot in episode 10

And she said, I would like if you could say in some way that talking about what happened, letting the genie out of the bottle as such, is and has been a liberating and cathartic experience. Silence is what allowed the repugnant behavior to continue for so long. That's in deference to authority figures. If anyone listening has suffered as we did, don't feel ashamed or guilted into thinking they were to blame. They are not. Children are not to blame. The offender is the only one that's to blame.

I have planned to travel back to Ireland very, very soon, and I've made the decision to contact the Gardaí when I do. Oh, and by the way, please use my real first name. There's no more hiding behind Judy. You can tell the audience in the National Concert Hall that my real name is Orla. And that letter reminded us that for some people This wasn't the end.

The Garda officer in charge of organised and serious crime says the Gordi are actively investigating allegations of abuse against a former swimming coach, George Gibney, and he has appealed for any victims to contact the Gordi. One of the big historic cases that came to the fore this year because of a podcast on the BBC is the George Gibney case. Episode 10 of Where is George Gibney featuring Judy, or Orla, aired on December 10th, 2020.

We knew at that point that some survivors who listened to the podcast had been in touch with the Irish police, or the Gardaí. Just over two weeks later, on December 28th, the Irish police decided to make their first public statement on the Gibney case. We are investigating that case. That is an example of a scenario where, again, we encourage people to come forward to us. We have the capacity.

to investigate in a manner that perhaps in the past we wouldn't have been able to achieve. And from that point, bar that night in the National Concert Hall, there was total silence on the case of George Gibney. from the media, from the Gardaí, from everyone. And then just a few weeks ago, this happened.

Good morning. It's 7 o'clock on Thursday the 2nd of November. This is Morning Ireland with Anya Lawler and Rachel English. Fresh allegations against swimming coach George Gibney. A file is sent to the DPP. DPP to make a decision on whether former swimming coach George Gibney should face more than 50 new abuse charges.

Let's speak to Paul outside Garda headquarters now. Paul, can you explain just how significant this development is? Gardaí reopened their investigation into the former swimming coach George Gibney after a number of people made allegations against him three years ago. Following the broadcast of a BBC podcast, Where Is George Gibney in 2020, in which a number of survivors told their stories, the Gardaí commenced a new investigation. Gibney was living in Florida at the time.

Gardaí appealed to people with information to come forward and several new victims made statements alleging they had been sexually abused. A file was sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions with a recommendation. that the now 74-year-old be charged with over 50 criminal offences. If the DPP recommends that Gibney face trial, it's open to the Gardaí to then seek his extradition from the USA.

As I record this podcast, a decision is expected very soon from the Director of Public Prosecutions in Ireland on whether George Gibney should face trial. After a three-year police investigation and three years since we concluded the podcast, It's a hugely significant moment in a story that was first made public almost 30 years ago. A number of people have set off on a road travelled by Burr and Trish, Lorraine and Chalky and others back in the early 90s.

and we're limited in what we can report right now for legal reasons. But we think now is an appropriate time to remind listeners to this podcast of the stories and the voices of the people who first stood up. So this is that night in the National Concert Hall in Dublin.

featuring Trish, Burr, Fiona Bennett, Gary O'Toole, Johnny Watterson and presented by the Irish journalist and broadcaster Sinead O'Carroll. We'll speak again soon. Okay, do you go on now? Okay. We're going off the quick introduction from stage. Okay, we're on stage. Thank you. Go ahead. Yep, center stage. Thank you.

We're here tonight to celebrate the actions, the voices, the freedoms, the lives and survivals of this story. We will hear from the spectacular women that you got to know through the podcast. The men who were... imperative to getting George Gibney's crimes uncovered and exposed. But first, I want to invite onto the stage the brains behind this podcast. Please welcome Mark Horgan to the stage. Thank you. Did I try to sit here? Mark, we're going to take you back.

to the very beginning because you told us in the podcast that the first time you pressed record was in Florida and I remember listening thinking oh he didn't do anything before going to Florida not that he didn't do anything but why start in Florida well Every time he's been exposed, he moves. So the quite simple reason was we needed to do as much research as possible, but we needed to keep it completely unknown that we were going over and we're going to pursue him.

The main point of that was that we didn't want to just go over to Florida and put a mic in front of George Gibney. We wanted to go, we wanted to remain in the background, we wanted to know for sure that that's where he lives, to establish what the facts are in his life now, whether he has access to children, whether he's working and all those types of things.

And we couldn't risk that by maybe word getting back to him from people who might be connected with him over here. And we had no idea how kind of connected he still was. What was it like when you were in the background, just kind of seeing him, obviously he didn't leave his house that often, but when you did see him leave the house, going to the places he went to, the shops he went to, what was it like seeing him live that life over there?

Honestly, it was all very surreal because I'm not used to doing a project like this. I think as the people who you're going to hear from really shortly will tell you, I don't think I really knew what I was getting myself in for. So Cass and myself, when we arrived over to Florida, it was in the nighttime and we arrived into Orlando. We went to our Airbnb.

And then at 5 a.m. the next morning, we were going to be outside his house. And we got a lot of information from people who were in Orlando, in Altamont Springs, who said that they thought he lived in this house.

information about what he generally has done in the past which has not really come out very often to when he when he leaves the house he leaves only by car he doesn't walk out of the house so we lots of information but suddenly you know fast forward maybe three hours later, and I was on a highway in strange country. driving quite fast trying to keep up with two old men in a car and we were recording and to be honest with you those those first moments were all

You didn't have time to contemplate anything that was going on. It was like, just go with it and you're in it now. So you have to commit yourself to it and crack on. There was a lot of work to be done then to make a story, like you've done the Florida side of it, but you also have to speak to all of the survivors around the world and try and get that. So there was a few people...

you had to get the cooperation from people like Gary O'Toole, Chalky White, Carol. Were you afraid of getting a no from one of them and the project falling apart? Yeah, big time. And that's the phenomenal thing because... Our plan was to do it on a much bigger scale.

you know not bigger scale because the likes of Justine McCarthy have written an incredible book that was a massive guide for us at the very start of the project but from a bigger scale I mean something that was going to be listened to in a major way outside of Ireland and that his name was going to be spread around

around the world more than it had ever done before so that was our plan but when we were coming to these people like Johnny and Gary and Justine we wouldn't really have known where to start if they didn't you know want to help and the reality is that you know, journalists can be quite competitive and they can be quite protective over their own stories and stuff like that. And it was a really beautiful thing, like straight away.

all three of them were anything that you need we can provide so that's like notes it's advice but it's also getting in contact with people who were abused by Gibney and And, you know, those initial contacts were absolutely fundamental to the whole thing. So we got seriously lucky. Now, there's other people who didn't want to talk to us. And there's other people that wanted to stay entirely quiet. But the people who were fundamental to the whole.

story being kept alive along with some of the survivors and they were just incredible to us. I think it's a good point to remind ourselves, because obviously you've just said there, George Gibney's name is now known across the world, but for a long time... The victims didn't feel believed. So I think we're just going to hear a little clip from Lorraine just to bring us all back to where we were before the podcast aired. And I was talking to a swimmer.

And they said, don't believe that. It was their next word. And he said, I don't believe George Gibney abused anybody. And I said, why do you say that? And he said, come on, imagine it. Somebody getting abused in the back of their father's car. And I just turned around and said, you know, do you fucking think I was that person? And she just went. And I just got up. It was actually a wedding. It was a wedding.

But he just, he said, don't be ridiculous. But nobody did believe, you know, there was an awful lot of people didn't believe it. But there was an awful lot of people didn't believe it. An awful lot. They just thought it was, you know. This was after I came out of the papers and all the rest. Yeah. Yeah. Is that the legacy of this podcast for you, that now everybody is believed? Yeah, I think that's one of the things.

Just before we go back to that, that's Lorraine Kennedy, and I know her daughter Louise is here, who Louise featured in episode nine of the podcast, and her voice is coming. And Lorraine, you know, I know that this is...

When Louise spoke about the voice of her mum who passed away during the making of the series and spoke about how it's a beautiful thing that her voice is being heard now, but it's... so difficult that she didn't get to share in an event like this that she didn't get to share in you know this outbreak of support generally just like a lot of love for everyone who took part in the podcast and told their story

Lorraine also would have been amazing on a night like this because she was really funny. She had a brilliant laugh like you heard in the podcast and she's just a brilliant personality and she was so kind to me. The reality is, like she said, is that when the story came out in the Tribune in 1994, that many people didn't believe the survivors and many people didn't believe the likes of Lorraine. and that continued for quite a lot of years and that's what was so surprising is that

George Gibney was believed for many years by other fellow coaches, international renowned coaches from all over the world decided to believe Gibney. So yeah, I feel really happy that... The survivors are now believed, clearly. But also, I feel sad that Lorraine isn't here because it would have been beautiful for her to have been here in front of an audience like this.

And I think that's why a lot of us are here tonight, to hear from... the women that we heard so brilliantly from. And this is the part of the evening that I was most nervous about. I'm like, how do you introduce two women like this appropriately? How do you welcome them to a stage like this appropriately?

to acknowledge their strength, their determination, their courage. Like it's all these words that come to mind and I just don't have enough words. So let's listen to the podcast and then you can welcome them on. You know, I can see all my friends around me, my sisters around me. I'm kind of thinking... That is a funny kind of bubble that you're locked in. You know, it's not like a situation where you're locked in a bunker and...

And nobody, you know, that you're fed through a window. I was living. I was going to school. I was, you know, whatever. Babers were so careful. So, like, it was always just a wee tiny column. saying whatever. And I did wait. I remember waiting all right for my charges because my charges weren't put to him initially. They gave the first lot and then there was another. And then finally I saw a little tiny thing of there was more charges and I saw the dates and I knew they were mine.

And that gave me joy just to think, there you go, you bucko. Now you know that I've come forward and that you know that Patricia McAhal spoke up. Please welcome on stage Trish Kearney and Bert Carley. Nothing to be nervous about. But when this fella came to you and said, will you do a podcast? You were an initial yes. Why? Yeah. I think really the lineage.

of men that were before him, Chalky initially, then Gary, Johnny. I trusted them all and I immediately trusted Mark. I don't know, I just immediately thought, yeah.

Yeah, I'm going to do that. And I was in a good place myself. I'd done a lot of work. I really felt well. Yeah, yeah. And what were you hoping for? I really... hoped that other people would um get hope that they would hear my story and not give up um and i think that with the podcast you know i remember saying to mark What about people who are listening?

I want to do something about it. What do we do? What are you going to say? And he was like, yeah, we're going to give out numbers. We're going to say email. And I said to him, if they want to email me, because I remember that void. I didn't know where to go, apart from obviously shared with those that I loved. And so I hoped that it would, I didn't know how they put it together. But I hoped that my story, my recovery, my healing would help somebody. And Trish, you were an initial.

Absolutely, hell no. No, I wasn't really interested. I couldn't understand why would anyone want to do it. And, you know, I was always looking for the motive. And I'm happy. My kids... Barely knew the story. I didn't see why I would visit it on my family. I didn't see the point for me personally. And so that was my initial, no thank you. And he came down and...

I think for the first two hours that probably was still all he got. You know, and it was, instead of, you know, kind of welcoming him, I think I was, I was happy smiling. Oh, hello. But we were only talking the last day. I put him at the end of my table and I sat at the other end. And Mark is going to get very disappointed if he comes back to my house because he thinks the table was huge and it wasn't. He was getting nothing. But you know what?

He was very sincere and there was no push. It was very respectful. So when he went away, I kind of... I was a possibility. And like my own kids said, well, you must have liked him. You brought him to the train. Because I had told him, if he gets a taxi to the train, that's it. You eventually became a yes. So reflecting on that decision, are you happy?

Oh, absolutely. We've often said that myself in a bar like that. You know, wouldn't we be kicking ourselves if we hadn't? You know, because number one, for me personally, my biggest thing that came out of it... wasn't you know it actually surprised me because what what I thought I didn't want or need was to be heard um because I didn't care if he did the story or not but actually it affected me deeply that

when the first podcast came out that whoa people were actually going to hear our story because for years our story was told but it was told by others and on behalf of others. Like, I unashamedly hid behind Gary O'Toole in the sense that, you know, I was dead happy to be anonymous. Gary was out there getting killed. for telling the story. And I wasn't at any moment going to go, it's true. I said nothing. And for all those years, I was happy. And then, as I say, the podcast came out.

You know, you could feel it. At the time, I wasn't even a huge Twitter person, but Twitter blew up with people saying, you know, this... you know, they were so enraged. And I would say, yeah, you're right. But, you know, it did mean an awful lot. It was really important. It is one thing sitting and talking about your stories to Mark after you've built a relationship and trust. But then...

It's a totally different thing to listen to it knowing that actually there's loads of people putting on earphones and listening to it all over the world. What was that listening like? Oh, I think that was very hard. Mark was very... I have to say, you know, he's charming, got us all on side, but he also was extremely sensitive and he sent a recording of my bit beforehand and literally said...

the exact minutes that Gibney would be speaking. And I remember leaving the house with my earphones because I didn't want Gibney's voice in my house even, you know, that would contaminate the walls of my house. I went out and listened to it. And I suppose I was also conscious that my family were going to listen to it and hear it. And I had always felt, oh, look, you know, you know that something happened there. But I mean...

it's very different for them to actually hear me speak it because they've never heard me speak it. And, you know, I found that I, from that point of view, I was very kind of private and like my friends. heard it and I found all that very very difficult that

you know, family and friends in particular, you know, other people outside of that, you know, oh, yay, yay, Team Trish and Burr and support us. But family and friends is, especially for someone who has really stayed pretty quiet about the whole thing, I found it very... difficult and I can even remember like at one stage Eamon said

It was a tough listen. And he said, I always knew something had happened. I just didn't know what that something was. And he got an awful lot of it then in the podcast. And, you know, my children.

I remember my friends one of my friends got really emotional and she was in tears and I said like do you know what I told you and she said well you didn't prepare us enough I did feel that um but you know And I was also afraid of, like, I hadn't spoken, so I was afraid, like, every time Mark went away, I was going, why did I talk so much?

And I didn't know what he was going to put in. So I did find that, you know, that lack of control of it. But he was so respectful. Yeah, being out in the public is a bit scary, but it was so well done. I was proud of it. And it was nice, again, to just openly speak about something that it's not my shame. You know, it's on him. A lot of people would say that. It's not on you, it's on him. And it did reinforce within me.

That it wasn't my fault. Yeah. And I think a lot of people who maybe weren't old enough in 94 to know about the injustices, but were enraged again, not just by his crimes, but also with...

how it was dealt with initially by the people who should have been protecting you, but then also by the courts. And this idea of justice, and I talked about it in the intro, Trish, you think about... justice in a different way now that this is kind of a new type of justice being formed that people are you know know the story believe you is that a new thought in your head or what was justice to you before this? No I suppose for me I you know

So it kind of went up and down, up and down over the years. Oh, he's coming back. No, he's not. Oh, he's going to be tried. No, he's not. And so after a while, I was just anyone who said that, I just go, oh, that's ridiculous. And I moved on. And I suppose. You know, maybe when people heard the podcast, Gibney became a big thing in their minds, like he was for us over 30 years ago. And so they were as enraged as we were 30 years ago.

which we'd mellowed, and life had moved on for us, but it was new for the audience, and they just couldn't get their heads around it, just as we couldn't once upon a time. So I suppose in that sense... I had really come to my peace that I keep my way over there now and I'm okay over here. That to me, I suppose people call that justice, you know, justice is prison or whatever. I've never, you know, once he wasn't going to prison, I moved on. And, you know, for me, I've always said like...

I live a really happy, contented life now. A lot of people don't ever get that, and maybe they weren't abused. You know, so I feel, you know, I remember saying that to Mark a few times. The first time he came down, I feel so lucky. And the car on the way to the train, Mark says, you know, you keep saying you feel so lucky. I'm sorry. I know your story. You're not lucky. But I was.

feel I am lucky and I think he knows now what I meant you know and the idea of Gibney being in your kitchen has that lessened now for you Definitely not. And for all those years, Eamon will always cut out his picture if it's in the newspaper. And I suppose now, in the last two years, I'm a bit more hardened to it because second captains would have it out, you know, it would be kind of in the preview. And I suppose to a degree, I would sort of make myself look at him.

you know, kind of a bit just, you know, kind of so you're not so freaked. But yeah, I did find over the years, maybe before the podcast in particular, that I found it very difficult if I opened a Sunday paper and there was a... you know, a hole in it, and I'd go, oh, what is it now? Because it never went away. You know, it never died. And so, you know, you'd reach a point and you'd be skipping through the meadow, and next minute...

There's a hole in the paper again. And somebody's talking about him. I found that very much that it was like he was still in my world. And I never... was happy with that ever which makes total sense and it makes sense that you're able to celebrate this podcast a little bit now because it's it was your world like and you've made it your world and burr's world and now you guys know each other yeah

And that's not something you didn't know each other before this? No, not at all. And I think we had the same kind of vision for ourselves. Like, you know, both of us have worked very, very hard in life to be well.

And you don't, and it's the same as being happy. You know, you don't just be happy. You know, it's an active process. And we both, from the very beginning, that we both chatted to each other. That was hugely important to both of us, that, like, you know, that... we would it wouldn't be a story of like you even said it there a wee minute ago you know that it wouldn't be a story of two victims oh here they go god love them do you know justice do you know that like

You can have no justice, but you still continue to do very well in life, you know? You know, you can relate and you can, you know, just really... We know what we're talking about to each other without even saying some stuff. Just feel a connection, shared shit, I suppose, really. Trish, you were a brilliant swimmer.

If you look back at some of the articles about Trish, like 10 national medals in one. I suppose that if you say things we got out of the podcast, I was a coach, a coach swimming, loved swimming. eventually. But there was one day I was talking to Mark and...

He said something like, I didn't even know you were a good swimmer until Gary said it or whatever, and I said, I wasn't a good swimmer. I said, Gary and others were good swimmers, and they went to America, and they were brought to America because they were good swimmers. Sure, like, honestly, it nearly knocked me out when the penny dropped. Sure, they were going to America so that I would stay at home. And they were going... I was a good swimmer. And I literally, in front of Mark, I went...

I was a good swimmer. And it had never occurred to me that I was a good swimmer. And then subsequently, when I was looking up to the stuff online, and I would see my name mentioned. you know, Gary and another one or two swimmers. And I was thinking, gosh, I was a good swimmer. So I did get that out of the podcast. And I do, I still haven't fully grasped it, but I would...

consider myself a better swimmer after the podcast. Why did you not realise you were a good swimmer? Because I went off to America. I never got to go to America. It wasn't that Gibney was trying to undermine you and flatten you. Totally, 100%. Okay, okay. 100%. I just didn't get it until I was sitting in my kitchen one day.

But what are your feelings about swimming now? I got away from swimming very early and very quickly. Saw a gap and ran. And so... I didn't reach my potential but I don't care because I know with hindsight that I got away from Gibney which was better than anything you know so I was quite young.

When I escaped. Can I just say, Burr was also a national record holder. They're like elite. Like a 10-time national champion in one year and a national record holder. Like they were properly best of the best. Pretty interesting.

Your voices are obviously the most important part, but there was a couple of men who were really important to kind of unlock it all and allow people to know that they weren't the only one. So please welcome on stage Gary O'Toole and Johnny Watterson. The scene in the podcast where Gary comes to your house again and Mark and they're recording this time. The first time he came to your house and he's told...

We've been expecting you. Were you expecting Gary O'Toole? Or were you expecting... We had photographs of him everywhere. Or were you expecting someone to come and say, George Gibney did this? We were relieved that some... was there and it's very difficult to realize with all the social media we have now that like it's kind of a secret it's locked away but I didn't know what to do

I was really relieved that he was coming to do something. I had no clue, you know, what. But I was really delighted to... you know do i don't know it's like an energy you have or something within you that you don't know that you're like yes there's somebody going to just start the train in motion yeah and i don't think i don't think people and i don't think gary himself has any clue

for me personally anyway, how much, you know, I felt he was like just taking it on. It all happened in one go and Gary had taken it on and I was just, oh, thank God. I think most people who are listening will think that actually when Chalky White told you what was happening and your instant reaction was to do what you did and not to think about your swimming pursuits or your swimming dreams.

That is something that I think in the podcast you came across as if that was the most natural thing to do. But I don't think it is. Well, it kind of is, to be honest with you, Sinead, because people... Especially elite sports people get so involved in their sport that they think it's the be it and end all of life and it's not. When Chokie said it to me that he had been abused by George Gibney...

I looked at him and said, yeah, that makes perfect sense. Yeah, I can see how that would happen. I realized when he said it to me that I was this close to it happening to me. And that's... what made me turn around and say, right, you got away with one there. And, you know, Trish was saying and Bear was saying earlier on, you know, that they were lucky.

No, I was tremendously lucky. And I remember my mother saying to me, when Johnny wrote the piece, she said, you know, this is far better than anything that you could have done in the Olympics, no matter what happened. And that was empowering. She didn't often say nice things to me, but that was great. was very happy to work as a conduit for people to try and get some justice.

And never for one second doubted Chalky, not one second. And I contacted a lot of people that didn't want to talk and didn't want to have anything to do with it. And I remember one particular time being in a house and speaking to a girl who was going through a terrible time. And it was quite obvious why she was going through a terrible time. She denied, flatly denied to me what was going on. And there's nothing you can do. You just have to walk away.

They were hard. The ones where you're mining down, trying to make sure that they're okay, letting them know that there are other people out there. They were the harder people to visit. And the first three people I went with, one of them ran me out of the place. They wanted to hear no evil of that man. Because I went to parents. I went to parents whose children were being groomed.

and sat down in front of them, took a tremendous amount of abuse from them. I just said, look, he's a child abuser, he's a pedophile, and he will be ousted as a pedophile eventually. But your daughter is in trouble and you need to look after her. And they did nothing. And that was hard. But then I could move on. I could go to the people who were out of his clutches then. I did my best for the people who were in his clutches.

And then went to the people who were out of his clutches. And all of this time, I wanted to stop swimming. I wanted to retire. But I felt that I couldn't stop whilst I was trying to do this. I wanted to do it from the inside.

But if it wasn't for Johnny now, I don't know what would have happened. It is quite remarkable. I think that that is a... Absolute stellar moment in the print industry in Ireland, what they managed to do. The Sunday Tribune, which no longer exists, they had marvellous journalists in there. I was in there that afternoon when they were about to print it. I saw the chaos that was ongoing in there, the legal people. But the impact that you made, Johnny, was absolutely marvelous. Thank you.

Johnny, that's where you came in. Do you know what was different about Mark's proposal? Can you pinpoint why? Because you wouldn't have known each other too well, right? Sinead, if you even go back to when I wrote the story originally, nothing happened afterwards. You know, nothing. It came out on a Sunday. None of the other papers would go near because they were concerned about defamation. Not a word about it. They were terrified. And the only reason was I had sworn affidavits from you all.

really happy. No one else did. So the point being that it sort of was one story on a Sunday and then that was it. It flatlined. And the podcast was completely the opposite of that. And I know it was certainly...

When Mark came to me to talk about the podcast, there were lots of people who came to me to talk to... This was my executive decision, by the way, to talk to Trish and Bear, and I said, no, I'm not giving you their phone numbers. It happened loads and loads of times. And the reason was...

I know, you know, if you keep going back to the well and Gibney's spotted in Colorado, Gibney's spotted in California, Gibney's spotted somewhere else. And so you get phone calls, talk about Gibney, talk about Gibney. It becomes this. treadmill of quotes just to attach it to Gibney. So Mark came. It was different. And, you know, I was straight away.

really interested in what his proposal was and had no problem in bringing it up. I just thought it moved on 30 years and I've been listening to podcasts and I love it. It's what I listen to when I'm out walking or on my bike, which I shouldn't do, I know that. I thought it would bring it to younger people. It wasn't just telling a boring story, the music, the narrative.

It was slightly dramatized, but it wasn't dramatized beyond the facts of the story. So, okay, I found that out after the podcast, but I knew the second captain stuff, and I knew it was going to be good.

The BBC had been involved, gave it a global reach as well. So everything about it, I thought, could be really exciting and interesting. It turned out that it was. The reality is that it would be impossible for us to do the podcast if it wasn't for Johnny's story. That's just a direct fact because... When we were pitching this to the BBC, it was known as a high-risk production. The fact that you could...

even remotely think about doing a 10-part series about somebody who hasn't been convicted of anything and directly call them a child abuser, it just wouldn't happen. But what... The realities are that Johnny did that story. It was an incredible risk and an incredible risk for the Sunday Tribune at the time. And then it allowed all those years later for us to do what we did because it was just quite simple. It was, well, he hasn't sued and this is what.

happened back then and from that point then you know there was there were other stories but it all started from from johnny's i think there's you know that was the 1990s you know i think Times have moved quite a bit. I think people talk about it a lot more. I think because they realise it's important to talk about it. It's important to say things are wrong and it's important to point them out.

It's maybe something I wouldn't have been able to do. But yeah, look, hopefully it has empowered people to be named and not be anonymous. And hopefully it will allow other people to be empowered and to... come out. But also, the really big thing that I want to mention, and I know Dylan Haskins from the BBC is here, one of the main things that made this work was the amount of time that we were given.

So time to speak to survivors, time to do it in a respectful way, and also find the time to eventually allow for other people to come forward and speak. And that was the key thing for us. There's eight episodes, and those last two were... you know maybe there's some sort of chance that some people might be affected by the series might want to talk or

you know might want to come forward and that was the amazing thing and a lot of that I think is down to the amount of time the project was given and like Johnny knows as well just journalists don't get the time obviously you as well Sinead don't get the time to invest you know, for long, long periods in one particular thing. And we're really grateful that we got that opportunity.

And always the pro, he's giving me a good segue there to get Fiona on stage. We obviously have one chair left. And there was someone who, there was a lot of people who heard the podcast and came forward. And we heard that in the last two episodes, the people who...

who contacted you, who contacted the guards afterwards, and delighted to have Fiona Bennett here today, who was one of those women who you heard on the podcast, who decided to come forward with her story after hearing episodes one to seven. By the way, I've no national records. And very bad swimming times. Took us a while to get you out, but you came into the podcast...

After hearing the first episodes of the podcast. Yes, yeah, episode nine, yeah. When I heard the podcast initially, I was shocked at what I'd heard. I wrote down some notes myself and I was going to email Mark and then I just abandoned it and I just said, no, I just didn't want to go there really. And then I knew there was two more podcasts to come out.

And just something hit me one Friday afternoon and that's when I made contact with Mark. I emailed him. And one of the things he said was that... His Waterford crimes didn't feature. All the women that you heard who had come forward after, they all had Dublin accents. Yes, yes. And you thought... That was very prevalent, yeah. I was Waterford Crystal. Where are the Waterford Crystal? Yes.

Yeah, yeah. And I just said, you know what, why not? Because I was nine. I started swimming and water for it at 10. I was there from 10 till 12, the age of 12. And yeah, I just kind of said, no, go for it. because maybe there was other people in Waterford that would have come forward as well you know so I just said I'd give it a shot yeah I actually didn't give it much thought you know when I emailed Mark it all happened so fast really

And he responded, of course, immediately. I was like, oh, what am I letting myself into? Why did you make the decision to listen to it in the first place, knowing...

Well, George Gibney just never left. He was coming up. I read Justine McCarthy's book and his name just wasn't going away. And it was my daughter that told me that the podcast, a BBC broadcast, was... podcast was coming out and I in fact I knew George I said I have to listen and I just wanted to hear I was shocked when I heard to be honest Trish and Burrs and Susan's and

I was disturbed by it all. How do you feel about your decisions now to listen, to contact Mark, to do everything that's happened since? I'm delighted. I did what I did. And I did it as well for other people and for my daughters. You know, just, I'm delighted. I have no regrets at all. And Mark treated me so respectfully. And I just had great faith in him. And I met him, never met him before. But, you know, he just, I felt very comfortable with him.

And the idea that there were other people there, like Trish, like Burr. Like Lorraine, you mentioned. Yeah, I know. I was privileged to be part of that podcast with Lorraine because I just listened to it over and I listened to her gorgeous laugh. She's had such a hearty laugh. I wish I'd met her, to be honest. Yeah, but I know Louise is here somewhere and I'm dying to meet her. And you guys have stayed in touch in some ways, even though you haven't... I've never met anyone until tonight.

And we got a flavor of that with the podcast. And I think we'll listen to a little bit of Burr talking to Judy in the US. So Judy was one of the women that came forward in the last two episodes who I spoke to a lot in episode 10.

and uh we talked to each other um you know we've been talking to each other for actually a couple of months and it started with an email in like you how you got in touch fiona and then we got back in touch and she was really incredibly upset and we'd talk at the same time every Tuesday I'd pop up I think it was 10 o'clock my time and we'd chat for honestly we'd chat for hours

And when she spoke first, she was really a long way away from, I think, from coming on the podcast. We didn't even discuss it. She was just telling her story. And she was, like Fiona, really impacted by... the accounts of burn trish and chalky and then as i went on um she i don't know that the tears kind of left the conversations um and she said that she wanted to come on the podcast and

she gave the most I think incredible interview it was hugely powerful and what I thought was absolutely gorgeous was I'd like you said to me birds that you said a lot of times when I met other survivors or new survivors that came forward that let them get in touch with me and when I said that to people and when they'd heard what you'd had to say they really

you know, jumped at that opportunity to do that just as you guys got to each other and chat to each other. So this clip, yeah, is me going back to Burr's house. It's another one of those annoying scenes where I had to ring the doorbell, Burr. Sorry about that. And we were sitting around the kitchen table and I shut the hell up and let Burr and Judy talk. This is how it went.

I just felt a gathering of strength as we went along. It was kind of like building up to like an army of people kind of getting behind us. To talk about sea swimming. But yeah, I like jumping in the sea. I like that feeling of resetting. Restore factory settings. I love sea swimming. Well, there's no chlorine. For me it was that smell. Yeah. And they talk about George Gibney. They talk about justice. You can't change the past but you can...

take control of now and affects the future. It was kind of like I got a better picture from other people's eyes of how awful... It was and how awful he was. You carry this burden. Yeah. And you can talk about this. I've been in therapy. You can talk about this, but it is... You can't change the past, but you can... take control of us now and affects the future. Yeah. Aw, that was really nice to talk to, Judy. And you too, Bear. It was really, really, really good.

We'll do this again just on our own. Yep. Yep, definitely. Thank you. Cheers. Stay safe. You too. Slán. Bye. Slán, lad.

And you're part of that now, Fiona, too. Yes. Yeah, I've made some lovely friends. I love it all. It's wonderful. It's an amazing feat of journalism. It's an amazing storytelling feat. Is there anything that you want to wrap on, Mark? I think you have a couple of things. I'm so honoured to be here. I really am. And it's beautiful to share the stage with all you guys. I really mean that.

springs to mind is is the people that aren't here and i mentioned lorraine but also lots of the people that i spoke to throughout the course of the series um chalky springs to mind straight away and these these are people who you know either are out of the country or aren't able to make it or aren't in a position in their lives where it's the right time for them to be in a place like this. People that spring to mind are Susan and Caroline.

who just gave absolutely incredible, either anonymous accounts or their stories were beautifully told by their family in Laura. I actually got some messages from a couple of people in advance of coming on tonight. One of them is from Judy, who we just heard from there now, and I'll come to it in a second. But the first one's from Laura.

who is, as I said, Susan's sister, and she said, I just want to say that we as a family are very grateful for enabling Susan's voice to be heard and for providing a space for other victims of abuse to come forward. Wishing everyone in the National Concert Hall tonight the best. Love, Laura.

And then this is from Judy. And she said, I would like if you could say in some way that talking about what happened, letting the genie out of the bottle as such, is and has been a liberating and cathartic experience. Silence is what allowed the repugnant behaviour to continue for so long. Death and deference to authority figures. If anyone listening has suffered as we did, don't feel ashamed or guilted into thinking they were to blame. They are not.

Children are not to blame. The offender is the only one that's to blame. I have planned to travel back to Ireland very, very soon, and I've made the decision to contact the Gardaí when I do. Oh, and by the way, please use my real first name. There's no more hiding behind Judy. You can tell the audience in the National Concert Hall that my real name is Orla. So yeah, that's a really beautiful thing to get that message today.

Yes, that's certainly something to celebrate and these people appearing on stage with us today are certainly something to celebrate too. I think we'll end our celebration there on that really fitting note and just to reiterate again to thank everyone for being here because... Everyone up here wanted to have this night, wanted to have an occasion to meet each other, to be able to connect on a level and to thank an audience, a representative audience, for the power of...

being able to speak out. We've talked about the print industry, but what this podcast has done has brought that even further to a new generation, to the whole world. So just congratulations to everyone. absolute I think we all stand in awe of you all thank you very much For a list of organisations in the UK that can provide support for survivors of sexual abuse, go to bbc.co.uk.

forward slash action live. Where is George Gibney is a second captain's production for BBC Sounds. This episode was written, produced and edited by me, Mark Horgan. Our composer is Michael Fleming. and our theme tune is by Aaron Desner. The National Concert Hall event was co-produced by Cillian Down, and the commissioning editor for the BBC is Dylan Haskins. The Where is George Gibney series is also written and produced by Ciarán Cassidy.

people who knew me a story about lies you used a terrorist attack to run away from your mess and fake your own death and love are you proposing to me in the face of death i'm paul I'm six weeks into chemo and I have no eyebrows. An original drama for BBC Sounds. Yeah, something's up. Starring Rosamund Pike and Hugh Laurie. Happy death anniversary. People who knew me. Listen.

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