10. Sea Swimming

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This podcast refers to child sexual abuse and contains interviews that some listeners may find upsetting, as well as some occasional strong language.

Sea swimming. This is the main section of the Sunday Times and it's Justine McCarthy on the front page. New Gibney abuse investigation. Justine McCarthy here writing that Gardaí... are investigating new complaints of child sexual abuse against George Gibney after being contacted by victims who listened to a podcast series about the former Olympic swimming coach. This is the Where Is George Gibney podcast series.

Gardia investigating a number of new complaints of child sexual abuse against George Gibney after being contacted by victims who listened to the Where is George Gibney podcast. Two female abuse survivors have contacted Gardaí about George Gibney. The two women lived in different countries. And the guards are investigating their complaints. This development is so significant. This gives that investigation now something to work on.

Okay, but the interesting point is, as you say, that it was dormant for some time and now it would seem active again. Absolutely.

How's the mic sounding? Sounding good. One, two, one, two. The first thing we recorded for this series, literally the first time we press record, was this moment in Florida. This is our first recording on the road in Florida Cassie. It was 6am and we were sat outside what we believed was George Gibney's house. Do you think there's any indicators that he could know that we're outside? No. We'd only been recording for a few minutes. It was the very, very start of everything.

Almost straight away. Have they come out? No. A light suddenly appeared outside a nearby house. Then a man with a torch appeared, shining it in our direction. It was really strange. Like that's parked right outside someone's house. Should we go and have a look around the far side there, do you think? You think so, yeah? What do you think? Do you think we should just hold tight? Unsettled. We move the car around the corner.

And we waited there for George Gibney. It's just a bit of a coincidence if it's just by accident, you know? A couple of days later, the neighbour of George Gibney, the man in his bare feet, followed us around Orlando back to her apartment and confronted us. He said there was a neighborhood WhatsApp group.

It explained the light coming on and the man with the torch. We didn't know it at the time, but they'd watched us park up. The neighbours were all messaging each other. We were being watched all along.

You were saying that you were speaking to, or the other people in your community know. Our neighbors, all of them, have seen you guys driving very slowly down the street. You scared my wife the other day because you were out front of the house. So I've been watching out for you ever since then. That moment outside Gibney's house.

was nearly the first minute of our first recording. And since then, a lot has happened. A lot. A couple of years have passed, and we've met many people along the way. Come in! Do you recognize this guy? No. No. George Gibney. George Gibney walking over to another side of the building. They look like they're working here. They have some notes in their hand.

But I never really knew the people who lived in that corner house. You're talking about the gray house on the corner? Yeah, that's the one, the gray house on the corner. Okay, yeah. No. No, okay. All right. Is he some bad guy here looking for? That first day, we had no idea what was going to happen with this series.

where the story would go. We didn't realise we were being watched and we didn't realise we were being listened to. I thought it was brilliant. I couldn't believe you guys were in Florida and that you were actually... Outside his house. When I first heard the podcast, I literally stayed in my car in the driveway, crying for hours. I think it was actually my sister's soul.

the fact that the podcast was going to go ahead. So we independently listened to it and nothing, absolutely nothing surprised us. People were paying close attention to what we were doing, listening. People like Fiona. People like Mary. And people like Caroline. I'm not able to listen to this podcast about George. I'm afraid to. I don't want to remember what happened that day. It horrifies me. However, I found the courage to listen to a bit of episode 6 about the Sunshine State and Susan.

But on one particular day, Gibney took Susan and one other young female swimmer for breakfast, away from their other teammates. Gibney then drove the girls to a separate hotel to discuss their swimming. He then brought Susan to a hotel room on her own. and told her to wait inside as he went off with the other girl. I was sitting in my car thinking, I am the other girl in the other hotel room.

Hello there. There we go. We're on my phone now. Oh, we're sounding good. People were listening. People like Judy, who's talking to me from the other side of the world. Judy emailed me after episode three of the podcast. The following week, we spoke on the phone for the first time. Judy was deeply upset. She told me her story, but wanted it kept between us. How are you fixed? Whereabouts are you going to sit today? I'm in my computer room.

Okay. The door locked, so the cat, well, not locked, but closed. So the cat's cat gets in. Over the next three months, we chatted regularly. Sometimes for hours. We had a regular time. 10pm mine, 2pm hers. usually on a Monday or a Tuesday. Just give me one second to mess around here a little bit and get the levels up slightly. I'd be sitting in my spare bedroom while she sat on her porch talking about Ireland, about Gibney and the other survivors.

Smoking the odd cigarette. Right. Can you hear me okay, Ian? I can hear you perfectly. Oh yeah, I can hear you perfectly now. You're coming in loud and clear. Okay. Are you ready to go now? Yeah. After episode eight was broadcast, Judy decided she was ready to tell her story publicly. We made the arrangements to sit down at the usual hour on different sides of the Atlantic. But this time, I'd be recording.

You know, some people may wonder why is she speaking now and why didn't she earlier? Well, I tried to and wasn't heard. And for me, it's very simple. It is to expose. what Gibney did and the depth of his depravity. And for me personally, this is to give a voice to that inner child, that nine-year-old who wasn't heard. I took up swimming. I was at Glen Albion. That's when I first came into contact with George Gibney. He saw weaknesses in people, in families, and he exploited this.

And he picked his victims very carefully. I was nine years of age, just turned nine. And it started at then album. And then sometime after that... I don't remember exactly when, but he moved to New Park. We followed. And his abuse continued in New Park? Yes. A couple of times a month. more at some times, but it went on for years. And it wasn't an everyday thing. You know, it was... There were times that it was weekly. Basically about three years.

When you're either not believed or not heard, then you end up in a situation where you get to the stage that you believe this is supposed to happen. This is normal. This is. This is the way it's supposed to be. And... That's why it went on for so long. The... got you to a place where you felt that this was okay and it wasn't until later i got more and more fearful and

I was older, bigger. I was beginning to understand how bad this situation was and I just snapped. Judy would break away from George Gibney, from swimming and from Ireland. She'd emigrate to the United States, start a new life, a new career and family. Where I was in the 90s, in the late 90s, there were no Irish papers, you know.

There was no tribune. There was no internet that I could go on and read about what was happening back home, you know? When I found out about the court case, when I found out... you know that there were other people who had suffered you know because of what Gibney had done it was an eye-opener I mean, it was a confluence of events. My daughter turned the same age that I was. I found out about his other victims. So you find out.

you know, after 30 years almost, that you weren't the only one. It was shocking. And then to see the response from the Irish judicial system. It just reinforced for me that justice and recognition of what he did was not going to be forthcoming. It was... both eye-opening and a slap in the face. It was like you had all these brave people who had stood up and filed affidavits and sat down with guards. And he walked off scot-free. And that was so demoralising.

I need to stop here. I need a cigarette. I'm sorry. It's okay. Absolutely take your time and have a cigarette. You okay? Yeah, I just... That's literally the word I've been looking for. All right, you're going to get some ambience now because I'm walking out to my... Good. Yes, excuse me, sweetie. The cats are very in tune as to where I am. I'm the only person in the house.

Are they respecting the fact that you want your distance? Oh, they know not to come into the computer room because I can't have cat hair flying around in computer parts. What was the word you said you were looking for there? Demoralising. That's the one I think you want.

Well, I know George is on number one, so... Almost every day, someone knew males. A different perspective of what happened. This time, an ex-coach with Gibney from the 70s, who has some old archive. Look at this, but that's... I think that's the one you'll need. From a good family. Was I just stupid? You'd feel that you were fucking thick. Like, why didn't I spot this? That's me. That's it. Yeah, that's George.

That's George. I watched the grainy Super 8 footage. It was haunting. Lorraine's words were in my head. The tight beard. Those George Gibney glasses. You like the head to be held just a little bit higher and keep the extended arm extended as long as you possibly can until the back end finishes the stroke right through to your leg. And then when that's finished right here, then start on the alternate stroke.

More people continue to contact me. More stories of George Gibney. And George was by the poolside bank with a swimmer in the water, a female swimmer in the water. Young, young girl. He said something to her, then he leant down and she came up out of the water and he kissed her full on the mouth. But that has stuck in my mind for a very, very long time.

I mean, anybody who got into that car was in danger. Anybody who got into that car was in danger. Like, he was brazen enough to try and assault me twice in front. with four others sitting two or three feet in the back. And then when he gave it to me, he kind of said, you know, basically, you know, how are you going to type me? And then he just leaned in and gave me what I would have considered a long, lingering kiss, which I would not have experienced before in my life.

tears. It's very hard to understand that in a camera or in a swimming pool. But I remember her swimming in tears. They were rooming together, and as soon as they got to their room, they moved chest of drawers in front of the door to stop them from coming in. And they sat up all night, one of them with the back to the furniture and the other one looking out the window to make sure he wouldn't try and come in a window or whatever. And she gave up swimming then.

And a lot of people contacted us about the episode with Susan and that trip to Florida. A donut or something. And he was very directly trying to grope to the point where she was saying, you know, George is doing this to me, whatever. And I actually... turned his little dingy thing on him. And then I realised the guy could hardly swim. The Florida episodes seemed to affect the listeners more than any other story in the series. And people wanted to talk about Susan.

I remember Susan and a friend sitting on a wooden bench in the shade and you could see their body language. She was emotionally upset. She was crying and being consoled by her friend. Episode 6. Sunshine State. Susan's story. I can't really. I remember going into the hospital and I remember her room. There were no blinds in the room. And there were no curtains. And there was no sheets. There were no sheets on the bed. And she had no, there was nothing that she could use.

to, like, try to commit suicide. It was when I got the call to Gwyn and see her, and she told me about it then. Susan told Carl what happened to her on that training trip to Tampa, Florida in 1991. The team of young swimmers all stayed with host families for the duration of the trip, and they'd return to these families each morning after training.

But on one particular day, Gibney took Susan and one other young female swimmer for breakfast, away from their other teammates. Gibney then drove the girls to a separate hotel to discuss their swimming. He then brought Susan to a hotel room on her own. and told her to wait inside as he went off with the other girl. He later returned, castigated Susan about her swimming, before raping her in the hotel bed. She was seventeen.

A second swimmer who went to the hotel had been mentioned in some accounts. A throwaway comment here or there. The other girl that was there that day. Early on in the series, we asked the Trojan assistant coach John Mullins about it. He was in Florida in 1991. Afterwards, he was accused of raping one of the swimmers. You know, and that has been brought up since. I mean...

He wasn't brought up at the time, but later, he raped this girl actually on that trip. And I do remember that girl, you know, that... You know, from the point of view of a coach, I remember her swimming comfortably and enjoying the new environment, swimming well, and then another day she was so bloody miserable. you know and i thought just one of those female things you know that you know but i do remember a change in her demeanor one day to the next

I remember it did strike me as, you know, one day to the next she was kind of a different person. At that point, as an assistant coach, would it ever have come into your head, I should approach this girl and see what's wrong with her? Not really. No, it was a tough club, you know. You didn't really moddy coddle them. You know, they were tougher, you know.

Ethos was, you know, if you can't take it, you know, get out of the kitchen. That kind of... It was very committed, serious kind of... I try and clarify some of the details.

And I asked, does he remember a second girl? All I remember is we had some sort of mini-coach, I think, and arriving at the hotel where Gibney and obviously those two swimmers, whoever they were, I remember we... That day we arrived at the hotel and I don't remember any register or roll call or even thinking, well, where has she gone or why isn't she here? Then the other girl.

in the other hotel room of Florida, contacted us. She's called Caroline, but that's not her real name. We email each other over a couple of weeks. She couldn't do an interview. She's not in a position to. But she did want to contribute. I asked if she'd like to write down her account, what she remembers of Florida, and tell her story. This isn't her voice. But they're all her words My name is Caroline

And I'm a survivor of George Gibney's abuse. I began swimming in the top team at Trojan New Park when I was 11 in 1989. George Gibney was my main coach. Every morning, my alarm went off at 4.45am, togs on, school uniform on, and the training session started at 5.15am. Our session ended at 7.15ish, just enough time to get home. eat breakfast and get to school. I'd just started first year in school. Our evening session started pretty soon after school finished. It was another two-hour session.

This routine went on from Monday to Saturday. If I remember correctly, we only had one session on a Saturday, and then weights training. This became my life, and I feel now it was the beginning of being groomed by George. He told me I would become an amazing swimmer and told my parents that I was going to be the next big thing. He came to see where I lived and spoke about moving into my estate. I was probably thrilled by this at the time.

He was my hero, and I would have done anything he said. On trips to galas in different parts of Ireland, George would give me a lift with others, his hand feeling my leg in the back of the car as he drove. At the time, this didn't strike me as odd or wrong. He was singling me out and making me feel special. Soon after I started in the top team, a voice developed in my head.

Go faster. Don't eat that. Keep going. Et cetera, et cetera. I had so much time on my own up and down the pool with my own thoughts. Food became something I could control. I began to limit my eating, became obsessed with calories and how much I was eating. This was the start of anorexia. I remember chats with George on the side of the pool during training sessions.

telling me I was going to swim this race and that race at galas, feeling special. On one occasion he got me out of the pool in front of everyone and asked me to lie on my back. He got me to do backstroke with everyone watching. I remember feeling very uncomfortable, but again, he was singling me out and making me feel special. I was chosen for the Leinsters, Irish schools. Our team were the best in Ireland. We were winning galas all over Ireland.

I was chosen for a trip to Italy with the other girls. I was getting really good. The next big trip was Florida. The chance to train in a 50 meter pool. George had contacts there and everything would be easy to set up. He was friends with Peter Banks who coached a team over there. I was chosen for this trip. I was 13 years old.

Not everyone was chosen to go, and of course, not all the parents would be able to go. I remember I stayed with a family very close to a shopping centre. The girl I was paired up with had no interest in me, so I ended up hanging out with her sister. I was 13. It was 1991. I only remember snippets of the trip. Feeling very lonely, wanting to go home, not eating, and always very, very tired.

In Florida, I remember training in a thunder and lightning storm, and it was an outdoor pool. Some of the parents were confused by this, as it was dangerous, but no one said anything. I was terrified I would get struck by it. Our hardest session ever. I remember being in a hotel room watching Wimbledon with a few of the other girls. George was calling us in one by one. I can't remember why, but I'm thinking he may have told us he wanted to go through our training diaries.

I remember a trip to the Wet n' Wild theme park and the back of my togs ripped on one of the rides. I was terrified that George would see and ran back to the lockers to get my towel. In episode 6... Susan tells the story that one day we were taken from the group to have breakfast with George and he brought us to a hotel. She was taken into one room, me to another. I do not have vivid memories of what happened that day.

I remember a hotel room. A man standing in front of me. Another person outside, walking up and down, perhaps keeping watch. I'm not sure. Nothing is tied together. It is all a muddle. I've tried very hard to remember over the years with no success. However, my body remembers and has kept the score.

When I returned from Florida, the grueling routine continued. The voice in my head got louder as I swam up and down, up and down the fucking pool, watching that continuous line on the ground. My eating became a problem. I'd lost a lot of weight. My mother brought me to see a nutritionist, a sports one I think. He told me I would have to start eating or I would have to stop swimming. I ate a little more, just enough to get me through.

My behaviour in school deteriorated. I was continuously in trouble. Nobody joined up the dots. Then in 1994... George called a select few of us and our parents into my friend's house, explaining that something was going to break in the papers the next day and it wasn't true. They just wanted to take down the best team in Ireland. I never saw him again.

I remember feeling very sad. What was the point in swimming anymore? I gave up shortly afterwards. I was 17. I changed schools in my final year and this is where I started to take drugs. Every weekend I was out partying. Looking back now I can see that this numbed the pain and helped me forget. I felt so guilty. I knew Susan was not well.

I was called and told that she was calling out my name in a psychiatric ward, but I couldn't help. I couldn't remember what happened. I was so guilty, and it hurt. The drugs took that all away. I was still not eating much. I couldn't after the drugs and this suited me. When I did eat, I made myself sick and this continued late into my 20s and early 30s. My anorexia turned into bulimia.

The drink and drugs were a big part of my 20s and 30s. There were times during this period where I tried to stop and take a look at what had happened in Florida but I couldn't remember. I travelled the world and ran and ran away from it all. But it never left me inside. I was always unhappy and never trusted myself or anyone else. In all my relationships I was trying to please. Unsure of how the other person would react and always worried I had done something wrong.

Then in 2009 I broke down. I got pneumonia and was admitted to hospital. Flashbacks and muddled memories flooded my brain. I moved back in with my parents, trying to piece it all together.

I began therapy and started the very slow road of reclaiming my life. It took me a long time to find someone who really understood what I'd been through. It was when I took the step to get in touch with one in four that the real healing started for me. I've been with the same therapist in there for many years. She's amazing and from the start knew what to say and how to be with me.

Life is a real struggle at times. Constantly managing myself. I check the front door is locked many times before I go to bed. I have to manage what I watch on telly. I find it very hard to trust people. Even those closest to me. I used to constantly feel like I was being watched. This comes and goes. When I'm back in the horrors, I always feel like I'm being followed. And I have a strange, eerie feeling when I see belts.

I look at my life now, and after many years with one in four, I understand why I did what I did. The bad behaviour, the drugs, the eating disorders, the running away. My memory shutting down and not allowing me to remember. It's been like having to relearn how to be in the world again. I do have a good life for myself now. I have learned to live whatever happened to me.

I don't feel I need to remember specifics anymore. I feel I couldn't handle them. Although I do feel guilty that I can't remember in case it could help other victims or bring George to justice. I do still swim and I have to say I've learned to love it again. I am good at it. All those years of up and down have actually given me something I can do and do well. The sea is where I swim.

The odd pool session, but I can find happiness in the sea. The pool holds too many memories. I remember one occasion returning to New Park for a swim before work. We met John Mullins on the way in. I got a fright. I think he did too. He said he was glad to see me back swimming again. I did some lengths but always feeling like I was being watched. Then later in work I had a huge panic attack.

My whole body began to shake uncontrollably. I'm speaking out now so that people understand the depths of what abuse can do. How it can take your life away. Your confidence. Trust. Self-belief, your sense of self-worth, leaves you in a mess. And also in the hope that George will one day pay the price in this lifetime. What a fucker. I'm not able to listen to this podcast about George. I'm afraid to. I don't want to remember what happened that day. It horrifies me. However

I found the courage to listen to a bit of episode six about the Sunshine State and Susan. I was sitting in my car thinking, I am the other girl in the other hotel room. The horror has returned again. I'm back with my lady in one and four and managing it all again. Hoping it will go away. But I know it never will. I just want to be okay.

Hello there. So I'm doing this on my iPad. You need to let me know whether or not the sound is coming through, okay? We'll go back to my phone. I'm back talking again with Judy. Me in my spare bedroom. Her on the other side of the Atlantic. Will you talk to me there? Tell me what you see so I can just test the line. What do you mean, tell me what I see? Oh, no, just chat away. Anything. Anything. You could chat.

Got cats at my feet. So, and I got to get my cigarettes. Do it. And of course, as I said, my coffee. As we say here in America, a coffee. A coffee. So it was painful. And at the same time, it was like, it's now no longer a secret. Yeah, it's not as secret as such anymore. I am in my late 50s. I've had decades to process what happened for myself. I have... talked in general about it to a couple of people. So over the decades, yeah, I thought I had packed it away neatly, as it had been.

dealt with, processed, incorporated, however you want to phrase it. But then it was just reared its ugly head again. The fact that more people have come forward, even on top of those that attempted to take the court case against him, just shows the... length and breadth of his depravity because of how many people he affected. Would you consider taking this further and reporting him? I have considered this. Yes. You can't change the past, but you can...

can take control now and you can change the future. What Gibney did, I can't undo. It has impacted me, but...

It does not define my life. He does not define my life. We're not sure how much this series has impacted George Gibney's life. He's still living in Altamont Springs, where we found him that very first recording day. He hasn't responded to any of our requests for interview. He stayed silent. But the Irish police have confirmed they're investigating fresh complaints against Gibney. Complaints from survivors who listened to this series.

The Gardaí told us that they encourage all survivors of historic abuse to come forward and they will listen respectfully with sensitivity and compassion. A week after my call with Judy, I'm outside a house in Kildare. It's freezing. The first thing I recorded for this series was sitting in the car at 6am in Florida. The light's coming on. The torch. This moment now is the last thing I'll record. This is the journey.

Hello. Doesn't seem right here, does it? I'm at Burr's house. You'll remember Burr from episode two and when Gary O'Toole and I visited her. How are you? I'm really good. It's good to hear your voice. And yours. It's nice to hear a voice from back home. Burr is talking with Judy. Judy and Burr have been emailing each other. They talk on the phone.

They don't know each other. They've never met. I've been there. And so I just wanted to be able to hold your hand and just give you the strength to do it. The survivors are now talking with each other. Nothing to do with me. You could call it sort of an unofficial support group. We were now being given that permission to talk about this and disclose in detail. The effects, the after effects. It's like dropping a pebble in the palms and the ripples, you know? I just felt a gathering of strength.

As we went along, it was kind of like building up to like an army of people kind of getting behind us. They talk about sea swimming. But yeah, I like jumping in the sea. I like that feeling of resetting. We're still in factory settings. I love sea swimming. Well, there's no chlorine. But that, for me, it was that smell. Yeah. And they talk about George Gibney. They talk about justice. It was kind of like I got a better picture from other people's eyes of how awful it was and how awful he was.

You carry this burden. Yeah. And you can talk about this. I've been in therapy. You can talk about this, but it is not the same until you hear that someone else has... Gone through the exact same thing. You can't change the past, but you can take control of now and affect the future. Yeah. Oh, that was really nice to talk to, Judy. And you too, Bear. It was really, really, really good. We'll do this again just on our own. Yep. Yep, definitely. Yeah. Talk soon. Cheers. Stay safe. You too.

For a list of organisations in the UK that can provide support for survivors of sexual abuse, go to bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. Our email address, whereisgeorgegibney at bbc.co.uk will remain open even though our series has come to an end. So you can still contact us if you have any information you'd like to share and you can find us on social as always at Second Captains.

I'd like to take this opportunity on behalf of myself and all of our production team to thank every single survivor who contacted us and spoke to us throughout the series. I want to say a particular thank you to Bear Carly, to Trish Carney and Chalky White for their trust and support and providing so much inspiration for others. Where Is George Gibney is a Second Captain's production for BBC Sounds.

The series is written and produced by me, Mark Horgan and Ciarán Cassidy. It's co-produced with Maria Horgan and editing is also by Ciarán Cassidy. Research and fact-checking is by Cillian Down. Our composer is Michael Fleming and sound mixing is... The executive producer for the BBC is Dylan Haskins and the commissioning editor is Jason Phipps.

A special thanks to Johnny Watterson, Justine McCarthy, Evan Daly, Carol Walsh and Hugh Ormond, to Susan Oak and Matthew Eltringham in the BBC, to Owen McDevitt, Ciarán Murphy, Simon Hick and Ken Early in second captains, and to Amy O'Connor, Sirica Pollock. and Gary O'Toole. Thanks too to everyone around the world for listening and for getting in touch over the 10 episodes. Finally, this series is dedicated to Lorraine Kennedy.

Had a great life. We did everything together. How did an American woman end up at the heart of the Islamic State group Caliphate and then make it back? My story? Oh yeah, absolutely. It is very hard to believe. Sam Sally says she was tricked into taking her children. I feel sad that they would do that to a child.

But was she? Anything I've ever done is only with the intention of something good to happen. I'm not a bad person. I'm not a monster. I'm not a monster. A new podcast series from BBC Panorama. and Frontline PBS. Listen on the BBC Sounds app. With thousands of homes close to the slopes, you can easily get epic POW, freshies, first tracks, and more. No need for months of planning. In fact, you can't even plan POW. POW is on its own schedule.

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