The Elijah McClain Case with Graham Judd

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They're all dealing with very , very similar issues as law enforcement . What brought my attention to Graham was an article he wrote called the Elijah McClain Case , convicting paramedics for following training . Graham Judd , how are you doing , sir ?

They've been throwing cops or arresting cops , throwing cops in jail for following their training and policy for some time , and now , all of a sudden , it's crossed over to the paramedic world and I just wanted to get your thoughts on when this occurred . Was this something that shocked you ?

Was this something that you didn't think would happen , or what were your thoughts when you saw this occur ?

They're human . So if somebody makes a mistake , whether it's me or one of my brothers or sisters in EMS , why are we being criminally prosecuted for something that is historically considered malpractice and negligence , for example , historically has been considered a civil issue , right Right ?

I don't understand how in the world someone can criminally prosecute a paramedic simply for going into work and doing what they feel is best for the patient at that time .

But before we do , graham , I mean this is a pretty courageous stance . I mean I haven't heard a whole lot of people speak up on this issue and there should be right . And that was sort of the problem in law enforcement . When this began in law enforcement , nobody in the profession spoke up , nobody said what's going on here , nobody said what you just said .

And that's why I wanted to bring you on , because this is a similar moment in the paramedic world or the medical world , because if this is gonna be the pattern , you need to get involved right now to make sure it's not the pattern , and is that why you're speaking up ?

Every instance that I can think of in recent history where someone has died in law enforcement custody and the law enforcement officers had been prosecuted , no one fails to mention the fact that that all started with the person who died not following a lawful order of a police officer , or that all started with someone who was being combative or fighting with police

officers . Nobody ever mentions that it's always the law enforcement officer that gets the blame . It's the technique the law enforcement officer uses that gets the blame . And now in this Aurora case , as I was reading through some of the literature AP and Reuters and things of that nature essentially what happened is the cops involved in this case were acquitted .

Well , who else is there to go after ? The only other folks there were the paramedics . And that's exactly what happened . They wanted to hold somebody accountable for this death and they did , and ultimately it ended up in the prosecution and the conviction of two paramedics on negligent homicide charges .

And when I was reading through this just there's so much information out there , travis , but when I was reading through it , the initial autopsy of this young man , this young man's death , actually occurred in 2019 . And the Associated Press reported that social justice protests drew renewed attention to the McLean case , prompting the indictments .

So the indictments weren't prompted based off what the paramedics did . The indictments weren't prompted based off their behavior , not off the negligence or anything like that . In fact , when they decided to reopen the case , there wasn't even a civil trial . So this wasn't done because law enforcement did anything wrong .

This wasn't done because paramedics did anything wrong . This was 100% a media driven prosecution against two paramedics who were attempting to do their job .

The pattern is an incident occurs , people lie about it , the media lies about it , they get everybody stirred up and then it's almost it's too late because nobody in the front is telling the truth . Well , here's the truth Officers in a war get a call of a suspicious subject wearing a full face ski mask , waving his arms wildly

. Now this is August in Aurora it's safe to say that wearing full I'm talking full face ski mask with just eye holes . Right , it's pretty odd and that's a legitimate . Now I want to call some citizens . Sees that and goes this is weird . They call the police .

Now this is where a lot of number one comes in , because the big lie the media told you is the police had no reason to stop him . Illegal stop , completely a lie . Obviously they have a reason to stop him and they do . Once they stop him , he becomes combative , he resist . Nobody talks about this . The officers get him under control .

They have to use a vascular neck restraint or carotid artery hold to do that . The paramedics show up . He's completely out of control . Still , they court of , size him up on the weight . They see his behavior and they do what they've done .

Up 10 times before they shot him with ketamine and the ketamine dosage , if you were in a hospital , setting by weight , was up to like 425 . And I forget what the M or the L's are , but up to 425 , they ended up shooting him with 500 from their experience and training and it worked . But unfortunately he dies and they actually .

He died a couple of days later , I think . He went and some . He had a couple of heart attacks later on that day and so obviously this goes to the autopsy . The autopsy comes back . We don't know how he died , which is the truth . Right Law enforcement medical professionals . They deal with an unhealthy population .

This kid had actually had an LSD episode two years prior to this and was hospitalized for manic behavior with the LSD overdose . So this is something for some reason this had happened in the past and it happened on this day as well . The difference was there were cops and paramedics around him when it happened this time . Last time there wasn't .

So the autopsy comes back and the coroner says I don't know how he died . He does address the vascular neck restraint and said , yeah , this happened because , remember , you gotta remember after George Floyd , anytime you touch someone's neck , graham , it became some serious attempted murder charge , right , and obviously that's ridiculous .

Nobody's ever been hurt seriously or died from a vascular neck restraint , including the up 10,000 people in the gym at lunchtime as I speak , doing it right now , and then including the UFC that you watch on the weekend . So it's ridiculous . But once again , law enforcement has left this narrative play out and so they came after law enforcement .

They make no mistake , this wasn't about the paramedics . It ended up being about the paramedics , but they did not like the vascular neck restraint . Well , the coroner didn't help them . His coroner said that that's not what killed him and so this case went away , which is what should have happened , because nobody killed him .

George Floyd happens in 2020 , the very next year . If they what you just said , graham , this case comes back up . The coroner actually amends his report to enable the prosecution of them . He basically said something in the effect of that . Police restrained him , paramedics used ketamine and that was somewhat the cause of his death . He did . He did ask VNR .

They wanted him to say the officers killed him using the VNR . But he at least had some assemblance of ethics , you know which . I got a question . Anyway , you already did one autopsy . Now you're changing it based on pressure .

And he said , yeah , the VNR did happen , but literature says that this likely didn't kill him and plus , it's very popular in the martial arts . So he sort of put that to bed . So the officers really came . The officers were ended up being acquitted , but that's not what I think they wanted , and then that left the paramedics , as you said , with the ketamine .

Now the autopsy is important because the coroner could change what he said in the autopsy , graham , but he can't change what's in someone's body . So explain to me why that charge on the ketamine is so ridiculous . It's beyond laughable and it's just crazy what's happening , to sit here and talk about these individuals in prison right now .

So this is pre-COVID , this is pre-George Floyd , this is pre anything that's going to get attention , really . So in November of 2019 , the district attorney declined to press charges on this . It wasn't until July of 2020 , almost a full year after the incident took place . Now , I believe in 2019 , they had some elections .

They got a new mayor , they got a new city council . The NAACP got involved and started working with the city council . So there was some political pressure and things like that . The George Floyd case happened . I believe that was May of 2020 .

It was July of 2020 , during that time , when there was just turmoil , where there was animus , when there was a lot of pushback on law enforcement just a really , really bad time in our history that they reopened this case . Now , it wasn't until August of 2020 that the family finally decides they're gonna file a lawsuit .

Now , they didn't file a lawsuit against the police department and they didn't file a lawsuit against the paramedics and they didn't file a lawsuit against the officer because they didn't have a lawsuit . And they didn't have a lawsuit because the autopsy said , hey , this is an undetermined cause of death . Well , the autopsy so that was when the lawsuit was filed .

The autopsy was revisited and amended on July 15th of 2021 . This is almost two full years after the initial autopsy . Now , it's not like they went and dug Elijah McLean up out of the ground and reassessed the body or anything like that . They pencil with .

It is what happened , and they pencil with it because of the political climate in the summer of 2020 , and because of the lawsuit that was filed against the city .

And it wasn't until September of 2021 that they actually indicted the officers and indicted the fire department , the paramedics , and essentially what they indicted the paramedics for is the amended autopsy report said something to the effect of acute ketamine toxicity , or something the medical examiner said I believe this tragic fatality is the result of ketamine toxicity .

Now , when you look at that and you hear that one statement in and of itself , it sounds like , well , you know the ketamine probably killed .

Now can you imagine if a law enforcement officer did that Like three years ? Two years later , you're about to go to trial . No , you know , wait a minute . I know that original report . I know my original statement said this , but no , now I think it's this .

Nobody on this planet would let them get away with that and we are permitting this to occur in this country . And , by the way , the reason we're talking about it is this isn't just for law enforcement . It's been happening there for a while . It's not just gonna be for paramedics . It's now there . What's next ?

You're accountant , you're lawyer , you're a medical doctor . That's actually the third leading cause of death in America . They call them medical mistakes or those now crimes . This opens up Pandora's box that nobody's talking about . We got people of court is cheering , okay , somebody's held accountable . That's justice , folks . This is not justice .

This is a travesty of what's going on in our country . Thank God we have people like you , graham , that are speaking up , because I see no one else speaking up . That is what is mind numbing to me . That's what courage leadership is about .

It doesn't matter what the narrative says , doesn't matter what the media says , doesn't matter that you're gonna get canceled if you say it . What matters is what's right and what's true . And you tell me ketamine toxicity . How does that change ? In two years ? His blood didn't change . What the results of his blood work didn't change .

How do you come up with that ?

Now that sounds good from the prosecution standpoint . But he also says I cannot rule out that other metabolic abnormalities contributed to his death . He can't say that they did , but he can't say that they didn't . So he reiterates his initial findings in his report I still contend that the appropriate manner of death is undetermined .

So he doubles down on the undetermined part . Even though he's pencil whipped and thrown whatever language in there that the district attorney's office wanted , he still doubles down and says I think it's undetermined . Well , now the prosecution at least has something they can move on .

They're getting sued by the family and they're gonna try and hold somebody accountable to make it look like they're doing the right thing , when the fact of the matter is the medical examiner's initial report that undetermined . His amended report still says undetermined .

And then there's some really interesting facts in the autopsy report and you gotta read beyond the headlines to get this stuff right and some of this stuff is . You know , it's medical terminology , it's medical language . Not everybody is very well versed in this . But there were other complications .

For example , his ejection fraction , which basically means the amount of blood that he's pumping out of his heart , is only 25% . The average ejection fraction is 52 to 72% , which means his ejection fraction , the amount of blood that his heart pumps out in a minute , is 50 to 65% lower than the general population .

Well then they went in and they measure his left anterior descending artery . It's a coronary artery . His measured one to two millimeters in width at the widest point . The average left anterior descending coronary artery measures 3.7 millimeters , which means , again , his heart is 50 to , or the arteries in his heart are 50 to 75% smaller than the average person's .

They note that the left anterior coronary artery is atrophic , which means it has retracted , it shrunk , it's small . So there's some things in here that when you have a little bit of medical knowledge you go . Well , wait a minute , this could have been a contributing factor . We don't know .

We don't know that it was a contributing factor , but we know that his heart's not normal . Then we read a little bit farther and evidently during this tussle , he vomited and he actually breathed those contents , the vomit , back down into his lungs . Well , your lungs are supposed to house air , they're not supposed to house anything else .

So we look at his brain and they note what is called anoxic encephalopathy . In other words , anoxic means without oxygen . So he's got brain damage , and he's got brain damage from lack of oxygen . But we don't even know when that occurred , right . So in the public domain we don't have access to the patient care report .

So we don't know whether or not they used a bag valve mask to provide oxygen to the young man . We don't know if they intubated the young man in the field . We don't know if they waited until they got to the hospital to put in an advanced airway . We don't know any of that stuff . That's not told .

But we do know that if your brain doesn't have oxygen you die . So you've got an anoxic brain injury . Who knows when that occurred ? You've got a bad heart . You've got vomit or emesis aspirated into the lungs . And then we've got some research on ketamine .

The research on the ketamine shows that the therapeutic range in the blood is 1.0 to 6.3 milligrams per liter . That's the therapeutic range . The autopsy results showed that Mr McLean's ketamine level was 1.4 milligrams per liter . He was well within the therapeutic range . If anything , he was on the very low end of the therapeutic range .

And people are asking well , how long was this blood drawn after he died , whatever , whatever .

There was no indication in the autopsy that the blood was drawn post-mortem , which means that when they got in and they were doing his initial lab at the hospital , they likely drew the blood at that time and did the toxicology at that time , which would have been within an hour or two of Mr McLean getting to the hospital .

So within an hour or two of getting to the hospital . He is well within the therapeutic range for the ketamine . Now there's some argument about the initial dose . They say well , the the firefighter allegedly administered 500 milligrams ketamine For his body weight .

500 is a little bit high , but when you look at the blood , when you look at the serum and plasma levels , it was therapeutic all day long .

So they took a look at him , saw his behavior and they made a judgment call Right in the , in the heat of this , which is exactly what the fire chief said , because he , the fire chief in the war , actually said after that they were convicted that they were convicted for doing their job .

They follow policy and follow training , and the fact that there's not an outrage across all first responders Is very worrisome , because what you described is the absolute truth

. And and they've made ketamine sound like some evil monster drug . Graham , ketamine's a schedule three non-narcotic . It's so safe . They prescribe it to people for anxiety and they take it daily . This is not something .

But that's what they've done . They've got a conviction in court and this is Dammit . I mean this there . I cannot believe to me . People are going to work in a paramedic row , in a law enforcement row , in a firefighter row , going to these type of calls all the time , and they're not scared out of their mind , graham , of what's happened , are they not ?

Do they not see this and go ? This could happen to me . Is that what's going on here ? Listen ?

Even the uh firefighters said that they believe that he had excited delirium and check this out . This is this is just blows my mind . They're now trying to get rid of an excited delirium diagnosis Because it is disproportionately applied to the african-american community .

But they've used race to bring in the emotion to then say let's get rid of this excited delirium that's been around for over a hundred years , by the way , documented over a hundred years of medical journals . This is real . But then once they get rid of that Graham you've , you've alluded to it . Well , now you .

Now it's well , if you die with police or fire or paramedics around , you didn't die because of anything other than the fact that police , fire , medics are around .

The men typically have a history of substance abuse and prior to the Excited delirium or prior to the cardiac arrest , the patients are always hyper agitated with a rapid pulse .

Well , listen , man , it doesn't matter what you call it , psychosis is psychosis is psychosis . When you're out there getting it's not beat out of you by some nut job we live in a .

You doctor possibly a body camera footage or camera footage . You keep lying about it . You put political pressure on prosecutors and you maybe you get some riots in the streets or protests in the streets , although most of this all happened in a war or following this .

Then you can get weak leaders like corners to change their mind , weak prosecutors to change their mind by by putting this pressure on them , and then you just keep lying and then , if you get lucky , you get a judge that doesn't let the right evidence in . This is a repeat of what happened in the george foyd case . Those guys follow policy to follow training .

Uh , they weren't able to put that in evidence and the jury didn't get all the information . They were the convicted . And you don't . You don't have to say , oh my gosh , travis just said that . No , don't believe me . Go watch the follow manyapolis . The fall many apples dot com .

And there's no way you'll think that these guys aren't innocent after watching that . There's no way , there's no possible way , because they show you the autopsy , they show you the policy , they show you the training . And here we are talking about it in the paramedic world . So grand .

What advice do you have To those paramedics going to work today , those firefighters going to work today , or anybody going to work today , because this is going to start Hopping around all sort of different professions and all they have to do to make it work is Lie and bring race in for emotion . And then you're there .

I promise you , there's not a single cop , there's not a single paramedic who goes to work and thinks I want to hurt somebody today , right ? We don't want to have to do the paperwork . We don't want to be in the spotlight . We don't want to be on youtube . You know , we don't want to get prosecuted . Certainly we don't want to go to jail .

You know , just go to work , do the right thing , and that's what these guys did , and I think they've got some appeals and ultimately I think that they'll end up getting off

on this . But the the problem is is the narrative that was fun and the narrative that was sold . It's easily refuted . One of the things I had some some gomer comments on one of my posts who said well , if you don't believe this was homicide , you shouldn't work in a profession .

Well , first off , if I left the profession every time somebody said I should have left the profession , I'd have been gone a long time ago . They said it during the covid vaccine . I didn't want to get a covid vaccine . Well , if you don't get a shot , you're killing people . You should go home .

Well , I didn't get a shot , I didn't wear a mask and I never caught covid , so so I'm kind of I'm glad that I've made the decisions . I have to stay in this career field and to do what's right by the patient . But the the the guy who's saying that has has two very dangerous things .

Number one is paying attention Just to the media and just to the headlines . Right , when there's when , when the prosecution , not the defense , not any objective measure that I could find Nobody .

But the prosecution said that the patient wasn't monitored , when , when you watch the body cam footage , you can actually see the paramedics say , hey , we need such and we need oxygen . That's as soon as they pick this young man up off the ground and put him on the stretcher .

They're already talking about managing the airway , they're already talking about providing care . So people who are walking around saying , well , they didn't monitor the patient , they didn't do this , they didn't do that . First off , we don't have the patient care report . Second off , we don't have any video footage from the back of the ambulance .

That's people who are talking strictly out of ignorance , and an argument from ignorance is the most dangerous argument and in this case it was the most damning argument against the two paramedics who were doing their job , right With them , accusing these paramedics of not doing their job too .

They're also ignoring the fact that the cardiac monitors that we use record everything . The time are all recorded Minute by minute by minute , second by second by second . So whatever these guys did to monitor , the fire chief looked at and said you did the right thing .

Moreover , the medical director , the doctor , the physician , md in charge of that service looked at what these guys did and said y'all did the right thing . Well , I can promise you , if I screw up , medical director is not going to put his license on the line . Right , that's going to be on me .

In this particular case , the medical director did put his medical license on the line . He said y'all did the right thing , y'all followed protocol . You tried to treat the patient .

That indicates that , contrary to the popular narratives , they did monitor the patient , they did treat the patient and they did do the right thing , and that's why they ended up getting in trouble .

It's titled the Elijah McLean Case Convicting Paramedics for Following Training . What kind of feedback did you get on that ?

. And in lots of people , though , as you mentioned earlier , we're saying I'm scared to go to work , I'm scared to administer these medications , and the bottom line is this with any medication that we administer , we don't know how a person's going to respond until we administer it .

We know the pharmacodynamics and the pharmacokinetics and we know how some of these medications work at the cellular level and we know what they're supposed to do , but some people have an exaggerated response . Maybe you provide a very small amount of sedative to one person and it knocks them completely out .

Other patients you can give them massive doses of sedatives and it doesn't touch them . You can give people blood pressure medication . Some people , their blood pressure will fall into the tank . Other people , their next blood pressure will be even higher .

So with any of these medications , you run the risk of having patients who just don't respond the way that they should or the way that the textbooks tell you they ought to , and the bottom line is that's not my fault . God made all of us different .

Theoretically , the medications are going to work this specific way , but it doesn't always work in that case , and that's why , when you see these pharmaceutical commercials on television , they're always like , well , this medication is going to treat ABC , but , by the way , you may die and develop cancer . Oh yeah , 100 percent .

What I'm trying to say is is you're right , when you blanket an entire population , you're going to have some side effects , and drugs do work differently in all people , and we have to acknowledge that .

And and I'm going to go a step further in the advice you gave is I want all of our paramedics and even law enforcement or firefighters , take a look at your policy on ketamine administration . Take a look at it .

If there's anything that's ambiguous , anything that's not clear , you need to go get something in writing from your superiors , and I because you don't want to be wishing you did that later , because if they're going to expect you to do your job and ketamine plays a role in most of those jobs you don't .

You don't do this in the back of your mind , and you need to make sure you have support from your superiors . I'm not talking about just a head nod . You need documentation that if you follow policy and you follow training , you're not going to get treated this way , and I'm trying to work , work away in my mind of how to do this .

It may be some sort of pledge or policy for these leaders , but these leaders need to be held accountable . And thank goodness , the leader in Aurora , the fire chief there . He came out and said these guys followed , followed their protocols , they did everything right . Why are we even setting here ? But he's he's one of very few that said that , by the way .

You know , if this young man would have just said , hey , I was just listening to music and waving my hands , I'm , you know , I think they said he was carrying a gal in a sweet tea , I'm just taking the tea back home , that would have been , that would have been it . You know , there would have been .

There would have been no neckhold , there would have been no ketamine , there would have been no aspiration , there would have been no death and there would have been no autopsy and there would have been no criminal trial . You know this whole entire event is unfortunate .

No , no , the last thing you want to do is fight someone , have to forcibly inject drugs in somebody . That's the last thing you want to have to do , but it's being forced upon us as this is growing and growing and growing , and so this is not going to go away . This won't be the last time we hear about this .

This sets a precedent that should be very concerning , and if you're doing that job at any capacity , you better get clarification directly in writing from your leaders . I'll tell you one example that didn't used to make people very happy , but it had an officer that said hey , I'm not getting trained appropriately .

I've been trying to get to this training and my superiors aren't letting me . I would have that officer write a letter to the chief of police saying it's basically saying that I'm putting you on notice that if something happens to me because you have failed to train me .

My wife's got to copy this letter and here's your copy and , by the way , that seemed to get their attention , and so I'm not so sure we shouldn't do something like that here , where we know exactly where they're coming from , because when the pressure comes to these leaders , so many of them just cower and do things just like this , and it took a lot of cowards

to make this happen . If we would have had one corner , we would have had one prosecutor , we would have had one person in that chain of events just stand up and say , no , this is not a homicide created by these guys . This is sometimes what happens , unfortunately . It's tragic , of course , but it's not a criminal homicide .

If somebody would have just did that by the way , the coroner did do that in 2019 , graham then he changed his mind when the pressure came .

So being a courageous leader is about not changing your mind because of pressure , but just doing the right thing , and it's something you need to be practicing right now , because you never know when this could be visiting a community you're in .

In EMS we have what are called standing orders . Right , those are our protocols that we follow . If a patient has knowledge that , we give them this medicine . If the patient has a heart attack , we give them this medication . If they are having a stroke , this is how we treat them . Those are our standing orders .

We do have one extra layer of defense and it's called online orders . So if you're transporting to a hospital , you can call the physician at that hospital and say , hey , this is my situation , here's my patient , here are his vitals . I need guidance on what to administer to this patient next . Or you can say I would like to administer this medication .

Do I have your approval so we can throw that buffer in there ? But again , it's document , document , document , document . People always you know I joke around People say , oh , I don't need the protocol book , I don't need the protocol book .

I joke around and tell everybody I use the protocol book to write my reports , because that is the instructions that we are allowed to follow and if you make a mistake , you need to own up to it immediately . I was looking in the drug box yesterday and we have a blood pressure medication that is identical in appearance to a nausea medication .

Okay , the blood pressure medication requires an entire , or requires half a milliliter . Okay , that's half of a vial to get to the maximum dose . So you get , and that's 10 milligrams . Well , the other medication the knowledge of medication requires two milliliters . You draw up the wrong medication and you're like well , this should be two milliliters .

Oh , they must have changed the packaging . You draw up two milliliters of that blood pressure medication and you have mistakenly administered four times more blood pressure medication than you should have . First and second , you weren't supposed to administer the blood pressure medication in the first place . Now , if you drop the blood pressure , that person dies .

Does that mean that you murdered them ? No , not at all . It means that you've made a mistake . It means that that was an accident , it was a medical mishap . The vials , I'm telling you , are identical , but that's why you know . It also calls upon us to make sure that we are doing the right thing for the right patient at the right time .

And we've got to verify those drugs , we've got to verify the medications , we've got to verify the route , and then we've got to consult our protocols , our standing orders , and then we've got to follow up with the on-call position and say , hey , do I have your permission to do this ?

And then we document in our chart permission received to administer X medication , x route , x time to X patient and note that physician who provided those orders for you .

I mean you could have easily just said actually I've actually read the science and I've read the evidence and so , yeah , you're full of it . But no , they didn't do that , and so we need to address this now . I'm so glad that you came out immediately and addressed this . I wish law enforcement would have done that years ago . So many of us still aren't .

But we need to be paying attention to this and we need to be acknowledging this and fighting back against this . And , by the way , speaking of courageous leaders , why did anybody in our wars show up to work the next day ? That was a paramedic . I mean , maybe we ought to be thinking about that .

Why would you show up to work in Aurora the next day when they just treated your coworker like that ? I mean that would get their attention , but I have a feeling that didn't happen right .

So I think we need to all be thinking about what we can do if this starts happening because I can guarantee you that's if you don't start playing the pressure , the other side , only one side wins , and there was no pressure to not file . That's the problem here .

All the pressure was too foul , when all I'm asking anyone to do in positional leadership is to look at the evidence and look at the facts and make a decision on it . But that's not what's happening and that should scare every American .

We need to recognize that everybody in this job whether they're black or white , or Hispanic , or male or female or homosexual or whatever , anybody , any of us , anybody in public safety we're not doing this for the accolades , we're not doing this for the glory .

We're doing it out of a genuine love and concern for our fellow Americans , and so the leaders need to step back away from anything that can divide one another in the workplace , anything that can divide one another in the community , because all that is is politics , that's to get votes right .

We need to step away from that and instead of trying to get votes by dividing people , the politicians they need to be the courageous leaders and they need to step up and they need to get votes by doing what's right for the community and that will eliminate so much of this tumult and that will reunite the community , and then we can start treating each other

like Americans . That's the bottom line .

He wrote a great article on courageous leaders in the paramedic world . But if you're still listening to us , I don't know 35 plus minutes in , you're going to love my last question , and I don't know if everybody caught it , Graham , but your father is Grady Judge , the Polk County Sheriff in Florida , and anybody in law enforcement knows who Grady Judd is .

The guy is 69 years old , been in law enforcement for five decades . He's a legend . I just got to ask you is we're getting off here ? How was that like growing up around Grady ? To you it's just your dad , but you got to understand to the law enforcement world he's something else . So just kind of tell me about that experience .

Now he's in the limelight , right , people know him . We can't go out to eat lunch because everybody wants to take pictures , so the food gets cold yeah , well , that wouldn't impressed .

That's the way that we need to lead in EMS . We need to recognize mistakes as mistakes , so we need to use those as training opportunities and learn from them .

But what happened to those paramedics was wrong , and what's been happening to law enforcement for years is wrong , and we've got to work together as a community , as a public safety family , and we've got to make these things better . But I wouldn't have been able to do that without the influence of my dad . I'm grateful for him . I'm , you know .

I speak to my dad a couple of times a week , except for when he's busy , and when he's when he's busy , I just watch him on Facebook .

I see your dad went through the ranks and my dad did as well , reaching the rank of captain , and I grew up around that environment and he was in the military as well , so he sort of set the foundation for me . I'm very , very grateful for that . But , man , you got a big job ahead of you , graham . I'm so glad you're on board .

We need fighters in all professions . Thank you so much for being here and , if you're listening , just remember , lead on and stay courageous .