Lies, Deception, & Minneapolis with Dr. J.C. Chaix

It's not about self-righteousness , it's not about politics , it's not about this utter myth of racism .

Now we had Liz Collin on earlier and she talked about some details about that documentary , but Dr Chaix was behind the scenes during all of that , during all the book they're lying . It's probably one of the last interviews he's going to give on this topic . We're gonna talk about that a little bit later .

But , man , what an honor , J C , that you would kind of spin one of the last times you're gonna speak to the media , so to speak with us and with our audience . How are you doing , sir ?

I could use a lot of adjectives here , verbs , here or whatever , but it is shocking , it's amazing , it is heartbreaking . It's just simply something that nobody ever dreamed would occur in this country .

A lot of people are successful in this world , but the things you have done have really not even been for monetary value , but they have changed the trajectory , I believe , of society , and we're gonna get into some of those things a little bit later , but this documentary is earth-shattering , so just explain to our audience how in the world , out of all of the

documentary makers and all of the journalists on the planet , it was you and Liz Collins that decided to take this on .

For me , I think the fundamental thing that has perhaps positioned me to be able to do this , and Liz as well , it's a fundamental moral commitment to the truth , above and beyond , as you mentioned , all other things like profit , like making money .

Those motivations don't put you into a situation where you say I see lies after lies after lies and you come to this part of yourself that needs to be reckoned , that just cannot accept that for what it is , for lies and untruths to just go unchecked . And I think that more than anything else , is what brought Liz and I together as collaborators .

Your influence as well we run around in kind of similar orbits here Definitely

led to that . But I think fundamentally , when you have two collaborators who are committed to telling the truth and truth-speaking , this is precisely what happens .

This is about letting lies control the universe , so to speak . I mean , the entire planet changed based on this lie . And if anybody's listening and they ran across this and they go , what are you talking about ? A lot , just stop what you're listening to . Go watch the Fall of Minneapolis . This documentary . There's no doubt . There's no bias in it .

There's no opinion in it . There is no question what happened . The book is the same way . They're lying that obviously Liz Cullen wrote and you edited , jay . So there's no debate here . We're not gonna debate that on this show .

But what we wanna I wanna talk about more than anything is the dangers of us letting this go without holding power accountable and what that can do to the future of our sons , daughters and future generations .

So we have someone who had a combination of methamphetamine and fentanyl , who had heart diseases , including hypertension , the silent killer blocked arteries , overexerting himself , a delayed EMS response , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera .

Four Boy Scout police officers executing what is basically a textbook example of an in-policy technique called the , you know , maximal restraint technique there's , and for reasonable doubt to disappear and say , yeah , all those things aside , yep , it was Derek Chauvin and his homicidal intent that killed George Floyd . That's not even a .

You know , I was willing to have that debate two years ago or three years ago , not anymore . But yes , it is this string of lies . And more importantly , travis , perhaps the best critique I received is that the documentary doesn't show anything new . We've seen all this before . The body cam was out , whatever . And then people criticize .

The best criticism , what I'm really actually very proud of , is folks say well , this stopped right when you know the other video starts , the Facebook video starts , and you know it doesn't go into the whole thing . I'm very proud of that criticism .

If you're thinking strategically about all this and again , the moral circumstance , the morass of American society that we're in right now undeniably is that people were comfortable not knowing the whole story , not questioning it . So when folks criticize me and say , well , it didn't say the whole story , it didn't show everything , yep , it didn't .

And that's deliberately the point , because we stop it right at where this you know viral Facebook video picked up and supposedly showed the world everything we needed to know to convict a racist , homicidal police officer and his three fellow officers who were aiding and betting him , all of that together for that to happen . Travis is a failure of leadership .

It's a failure of our so-called elected representatives . It's a failure of just morality to say this is not right , there's something wrong here , and to do something about it .

And I think where that ends and begins , in a way , travis is with the sort of apathy of our generation Gen X not really giving a darn to do something beyond their immediate concern and purview .

Police leaders everywhere will tell you the faults of letting a viral video dictate the narrative , but in this particular case , we all seem to have done that to the point to where I was the crazy person that said I really can't make a judgment here because I'm only seeing this viral video .

I like to see all the other information and all of a sudden I was a Russian stooge and a white supremacist , and you can go on and on , right and so . But the other hypocrisy is this whole idea that we don't . We want to just ignore everything that we know . Now , like I'll give you an example where's all the social justice warriors ?

And no peace , no justice , and we have innocent people in jail , so we're gonna fight for them all the way to the office of the president . Where are those folks at Jay ?

Because if that's what they stand for , it's clear from the documentary you have four innocent folks in jail right now as we speak , but nobody seems to be saying anything nobody in police leadership , nobody on these national organizations , no politician , nobody that is advocating as a nonprofit to get innocent people out of jail . They're not saying a word .

So the hypocrisy there is pretty damning and I have my opinion I wanna get yours first about that .

And it's , however , that damages your ego to say I think I got it wrong . It shouldn't be . We're human . We can make mistakes . We can gather new information and change our perspectives . That's what we should be doing .

But we put ourselves in this kind of strange socio-technological circumstance with all the social media and everything else , where , hey , it's either we're living and dying by thumbs up and thumbs down and it's one thing after another , where we are just a reactive society . We are not the contemplative , rational society we were even 40 years ago .

It's completely changed . And fighting crime , altruistically , making a real difference , making people who are gonna spend one of their checks when they're on limited income and 80 years old to hire a handyman to take the bars off their windows because the neighborhood's safe again , that kind of work .

To do that kind of work , it's not hard , but it takes effort and it takes leadership , and it's easy . You and I both know this . It's easy , but it's not politically convenient , it's not opportunistic , it's not helping someone gain some advantage . In this weird kind of charisma world we're in , nobody cares about the character of individuals anymore .

We put such a value on charisma and what people say . So it should be no surprise that we have this hypocrisy run amok , travis , where today we're gonna stand for this and not that , oh , and tomorrow . Oh , now something new just popped up we're gonna stand for this .

If you look back at anything in the last three years , travis , that's exactly what's been happening and it doesn't matter what it is fundamentally , but this bizarre self-righteousness that's just allowed to go unchecked .

And now today , they have to know , the governor has to know , ellis has to know I mean , these aren't , at the end of the day , dumb people . They know , but it's been interesting to see their response . Their response has been silence . Now , to me , that is much worse than falling for a lie .

It's much worse to then fall for a lie than know it was a lie , than just to say nothing and let the lie continue . What is your take on that ? Because I'm not sure if you've sort of thought what the reaction would be .

But the sheer silence from police organizations and union organizations and I mean there's nobody saying this I mean it's so odd to me that we are permitting this to occur and not trying to correct the lie , because my concern is Jay , that means it's going to happen again .

It will happen again , we will fall for it again and we're right back here talking about this in a few years .

And now I love the fact I've done a couple of interviews , which are difficult and uncomfortable for me , being introverted , but I've done them and this will be my last on this subject . But okay , so we're Nazis and it's really interesting .

We have a German scholar , Victor Klemper , who said way back then in his analysis of how the Nazis and the Nazi regime took over and how they did it with words and it started off small , saying , you know , using one term for something , then another , and creating this kind of really strange new vocabulary .

And what's important there , klemper did phenomenal work on what the Nazis were saying and doing . He touches on it briefly by what they didn't say . And if you take that idea further , that's exactly right now . It's , it's definite , it's blinding what the mainstream media is not saying about this . There've been no corrections , Travis , not one .

I'm not even talking about a redaction , I'm just saying a correction , not one that I've seen . I have yet to read an article where somebody says the four officers called for an ambulance within 36 seconds of George Floyd being put on the ground .

I have yet to read that in any mainstream article and , more importantly , direct to your point and to answer your question . I have heard few , definitely few , almost silent , nothing being said from police leaders . I think I got this one wrong .

If they are not coming out now and apologizing and saying I got it wrong , who's to say they wouldn't do it to you ? Because they made a comment , jay , on an incident that didn't happen in their community . They had no skin in that game .

You don't see superintendents of schools come out every time a teacher's arrested for rape and going this is never going to occur in my school and I've done this and I've done that doesn't happen because they have a brain and they think to themselves well , that happened over in town X , this is town Y , just doesn't apply to me , not in law enforcement .

They all ran out there in virtue signal at the highest level .

Well , if they did that and you're working for them today , or you're working with that politician today , or you're working with that prosecutor today , and they have not come out and said , hey , we got this wrong , we're gonna be a little more diligent in the future before we make these kind of statements and treat people like this .

Then you're in trouble , because if they had no skin in the game doing that , what are they gonna do ? If it happens to you and they now have skin in the game , they're gonna do the same exact thing . And nobody seems to care , jay . The nobody seems to care that this is going to happen again unless we , unless we , discuss this once again .

This is not about George Floyd per se . This is about letting a lie , letting a lie completely wreck this country , and nobody can argue that . Where's violent crime now versus them ? Where's where's employee morale now versus them ? Where's police recruiting now versus them ? Where's police retention now versus them ? Nobody can tell me this helped anything .

This is this is we're on the path of destroying this profession factor . There are now agencies that don't exist . Based on this , there'll be agencies , larger agencies , in five years that won't exist . Minneapolis , as I speak , is down 400 . There'll be down 500 . There'll be below 50% of the original staffing .

They won't exist to be a sheriff's department running that place . This is where we're tracking and nobody to this day seems to care .

So I say , please take this policy , the maximum restraint technique policy from the Minneapolis Police Department that was in effect when this incident occurred , its policy 5-316 .

If you follow that policy and policies and procedures exist for law enforcement officers not to just check them off , mind you , to actually follow right if you take that policy and you apply to this instance , you know there is no failure . They were not out of policy , they did everything that was in that policy .

Now you could say things like well , they should have done this , they should have done that , they should have got off them , great , I can think of a thousand things . But again , according to that a policy and applying it to this incident , there's no policy violation .

So I'm willing to accept and I've said this a lot that policy is flawed , tremendously flawed . That's a whole other issue .

But what that does , travis , and this is exactly why everyone in your audience and I don't care if you're a rookie or you're been chief for two or three years why this matters because , exactly , we had a police chief get on the stand and basically commit perjury . Not my opinion .

These are other officers who said that Under his command have said that that was perjury .

It was tough to hear someone lie like that on the stand and when we had that happen , officers following policy and there is no mea culpa , there is no accountability from the higher levels of leadership and there are everyone else who was let's just call it what it is Travis shamed and terrified into being called a racist or having anything to do with look like

racism when BLM is , you know , going full blast . Does anyone want to donate to BLM , by the way , today ?

I think a lot of folks got it wrong . I think we didn't have all of the information , like the body cam videos to watch and I say that with emphasis on the plural , because you do need to watch all of them in their entirety , ideally together , but that's another thing .

If we have that type of failure , we have that type of lying Travis and we have nobody really effectively coming back and say to their departments or to anyone else , to the public we got this wrong . That is a really profound moment where I think we're staring at never mind systematic or systemic racism .

We're looking at systemic failure because the things that we believed about public safety are obviously no longer in effect .

And those of you that aren't law enforcement this I'll just tell you when you're in the academy , they say this to you about a thousand times hey , if you follow your policy and follow your training , nothing else matters , doesn't matter what someone says about you , doesn't matter what the complaint says , doesn't matter what the media says .

We are tasking you to following policy and following training and you will be okay . Well , that is now an abject lie and it's an abject lie to every police officer working for anybody that works for anybody that said these guys need to go to jail , and that , to me , is highly dangerous .

I don't want to stay on this forever , jay , because we have so much to cover , but I'm just going to ask this to I maybe open up Pandora's box like where do we go from here ? Like how do we come back from this ? Because this is not just this lies , not just with George Floyd .

You got to remember , you know , just a few years ago we had a US Capitol Police officer shoot an unarmed lady that had , at most , committed vandalism and trespassing . Right , and that's not me saying it , Washington DC Metro did an after action report on that and they talked about that . There were Washington DC officers in the background of that shooting .

They were just as shocked as anybody else that it had occurred . They were standing right there next to Ashley Babbit . And this is just . This is just washed away like no . She killed an insurrectionist , totally fine , totally in policy . Run the officer to 60 minutes . He's a hero .

Nothing else is said and to this day I cannot get the Capitol Police to release the use of force policy . They've hidden everything and and so . And I could go on case after case after case . Eliza McClain , we just saw those paramedics go to jail . Well , literally here's what the Aurora Fire Rescue Chief said this is this guy's boss .

Alex Oughten said said this I am discouraged . These paramedics have received felony punishment for following their training and protocols in place at the time and for making discretionary decisions while taking split second action in a dynamic environment . So these two paramedics are going to jail for following policy and training .

That case actually wasn't about them , it was about the police department . But the coroner did not help help out the prosecutor , because the coroner totally dismissed the fact that the vascular neck restraint would do anything to anybody . He said that in his report , like this you know , this is done in martial arts all the time .

So trust me , if that's tenants would have been changed from the corner , those guys would probably be in prison too . So these are , these are all individuals that did their policy , followed policy , followed training not me . Their boss said that and they're in prison . So this is not just with George Floyd . This is happening not just in law enforcement .

It's happening in other professions , ie paramedics . This is going to keep happening and it's going to get wider

and broader . So , jay , I know you've done the documentary , I know you've done the book . You've done well and above and beyond what you can do . But where ? What can everybody else do about this ?

behind me , my higher-ups would look out for me and they would assume the accountability . In this case , when you have a policy failure , is that on the person following the policy , or the person who wrote it , or the leaders who affected it ?

And let's get back to this If there really is a law enforcement agency , the idea of people of different ranks working together , then those commitments need to go both ways , and I think it's one of the great ideas you had in your principles of courageous leadership , travis and yes , I've actually read them and paid attention to them where there has to be a

different kind of contract between everyone in the ranks of law enforcement and it can't just be the scapegoating that's been going on for too long . And that's exactly what we should learn from this incident . With the George Floyd arrest , they scapegoated four officers , but if you look at it in the big picture .

Why are we not holding everyone in every ranking , between up to the chief , up to the mayor , accountable for the failures that occurred , if this was such the worst thing ever ? If systemic racism exists , well , if it's in law enforcement , that's a problem everyone in law enforcement needs to address , and I'm presuming that there's truth to that .

I do not believe that , but if that's the case , as we're supposed to believe ostensibly , then that falls on the shoulders of everyone with a badge . So I would say this , travis , what needs to happen ? We can't have leaders , we can't have supervisors , we can't have chiefs just making demands , demands , demands and demands . It needs to go both ways .

Officers need to make the same demands . I think something you mentioned they should be demanding , or unions should be demanding hey , if I follow policy , if I follow protocol , where's the contract that says you're gonna back me up ? Where's that contract ? That needs to happen . We all need to work together to make things better .

It seems to be a pretty easy answer , right , and from what I can hear right now , which is nothing , no one's answering that question for anybody , jake is , nobody said I'm sorry , nobody says I got it wrong . They're just continuing about their day while this lies out there and continuing to affect people .

And , Jay , you obviously have so much more information in the book and the documentary can tell us . You got the court of thrust into this and I'm sure once you found out what was happening , you couldn't turn away . I know you are a principled person , you believe in truth , and I'm sure this must have kept you up many nights when you found this out .

Give us an indication of what we don't know , like what didn't make it in the documentary , what didn't make it in the book , what would completely blow our mind beyond that which is hard to believe , by the way , if you've watched the documentary , read the book , but what didn't make the cut , what really pressed on you the most after doing these projects ?

You and I wrote some articles early on and you certainly suffered tremendous consequences for that Me being the ghostwriter that I was at the time hardly , but I was right next to you watching that unfold . So that stuck with me and it'd be hard to say I'm a dad , I have a daughter , I care about her and her generation . It's gonna keep me up all night .

That's more than just the Italian Polish grandmothers and me . I care . I wish I can get rid of the empathy and not care about the truth and being moral and getting along with people and trying to do the right thing . I wish I really could replace that with something .

But there were so many things Travis that bothered me , kept me up at night , put more than a lump in my throat completely . Just .

I walked around maybe last year for about a week in utter disbelief and by that I mean the lies , and I don't wanna identify them as we might be doing some more work there because there are so many of them . By disbelief . I mean I almost convinced myself .

Well , if all of these things are true but have been told as lies , then there really is no sense of truth . I mean this got into like deep philosophy here . I mean I had to back up to Rousseau and stare at my hand and go well , all right , I think I had a handle . Maybe I am . It was bad .

But to your point , travis , the documentary , if it achieves anything else , is not just how George Floyd died . It really is . Please , america , look at the series of lies , look at the continuity of manipulated truth and falsehoods that are here and how we all fell for them and how we are all suffering for them .

And there have been many , even just ones , where we said well , this lie is huge , it's significant . Take , for example , how the autopsy was manipulated , how it doesn't mention the word homicide at all . Yet everyone still walks around and said the ME determined it was homicide . Actually , no , he went out of his way to not say that . It doesn't say it .

We only have a case title that hints at something , that took days to sit down and stare at something empirical evidence and say there's the truth , and then there's everything else . And how do I make sense of this , and then the hard work Travis was . Well then , how do I portray this ?

How do I do this in a way that makes sense for people who've been lied to make it accessible for them , because even if , when you just show it , that doesn't do it . But I'm sorry I can't give you an answer of like . Here's my top 10 lies . There are so many of them , there are plenty of them that are in the documentary .

There are , unfortunately , dozens more that will probably , in due time , getting them out there when the time is right . I'm a big fan of the idea of Kyros , the idea of doing the right thing at the right time , so I don't mean to give you and your audience a non-answer , but I can't say this . There was a lot .

Everything that in the documentary is there to see was a representation of at least days , if not weeks , of just utter disbelief , where I couldn't even fathom that this was actually the reality of what I was working with .

Like what our government is telling us ? Is any of this true ? And it really , I think it goes against what we've all . You know , I grew up . How did we go from Rocky III and Rocky IV of God bless America to where we are today in such a short period of time ?

Right , because that was , you know , you go back to the 80s and even early 90s , man , there was just pride in truth and freedom , and you name it , right , and we've gotten here rather quickly , and it almost . Your worldview has to change , and people don't want to . I don't want my worldview to be this . I don't want to walk around going .

Everything you're being told is probably a lie , but if I don't walk around and think that , I'm gonna be fooled . And so I think you've got to convince people that you know that Heather Haddoness and her raising her kids are going to work . They're not paying attention to this . That , hey , what you think this world is isn't necessarily so .

And I think , more than anything I've seen in my lifetime , jay , this documentary does that Because , you know , unlike some of the other documentaries out there that kind of have a sort of an angle , hey , this alien sighting was in this country and although we don't have videos of Bigfoot within a video world , trust me , it happened .

No , this is plain and simple . It's as easy to get One of the biggest lies that wasn't just about Minneapolis . That reverberated around the world , jay , we didn't have words like DEI before this . We didn't have words like equity before this we didn't have DEI consultants at universities making a half million dollars .

We didn't have well , I'll just say it , the Harvard president before this . Right , that's the little timely going on right now . So this changed the world and it's put this sort of lexicon in our mindset that America's wrong , all because of a lie that was told .

And so you've got to get across to people that and we're not going to get across to everybody , right , I think , from the popularity of the documentary , what millions and millions of views already . We're about a month out . The book we don't have exact sales on the book .

That we know from some of the data that we know is done very , very good for first time . Author still doing very , very well . Number one of the charts is a few weeks ago still , so I think people are getting an understanding of it , but will that transition Jay into them not letting this happen again ? What are your thoughts on that ?

. Unfortunately , this backs up to just the basic idea of right and wrong and it can get confused with all the DEI stuff Sorry , I go back to my acronyms or D-I-E . It makes more sense in so many ways and that's not just being cute . All of that nonsense . Get all that , get all the politics out of the way . Go back to the basic right or wrong here .

People have to care about that . And am I gonna conduct myself ? Am I gonna have my own character ? Is there a leader , just a human being , to say I'm gonna treat other people the way I wanna be treated and that's gonna be my standard in everything I do .

Once we start to get back to that and start calling BS on all the other BS cause that's what it is we're not gonna get very far . And just to point out , I think this morning not that I watched this , but in preparing for this interview Liz's book they're Lying is actually the number one bestseller on Amazon at the moment in law enforcement and biographies .

So that changes , but it's still relevant and people are searching for the truth and I think the key thing here , Travis as well those who know better , those with the wherewithal , those who have the gift of being able to lead , those who take on the responsibility of leadership , need to do better to help people get through the misunderstandings , to get through the

falsehoods , to overcome the disbelief and get back to just some solid footing and say , yeah , you know what . It's not about self-righteousness , it's not about politics , it's not about this utter myth of racism Sorry it is .

And get back to I'm just gonna treat other people how I want to be treated Simple stuff , the stuff you talk about in your leadership seminars . That's what makes the difference . And what makes the biggest difference is when we have those leaders . Take the Responsibility they claim for themselves and act upon it to help others do that . That's how this changes .

But we sort of live in that society where it takes that and you mentioned , you know how I've been treated in the past and and obviously , yeah , there's been some pretty brutal things that occur . A positive with that is , once you get stung , it doesn't hurt so much the next time and , of course , but this is where I land with that .

I know you land with it too . Do whatever you want to me , as long as I'm telling the truth , I am going to live and die on the truth , whether you like it or not . Come after me with all you got , with one exception you come after my family . That changes the rules a little bit . So I would very I would caution anyone from doing that .

But you can come after me with anything you want Because at the end of the day , I'm telling the truth . I think Tucker Carlson has probably encouraged me a lot because you know he's been called , you name it right and he just he's almost . He laughs about it .

I've seen him laugh about it several times interviews he's like yeah , yeah , whatever , I know I'm not a racist , I know I'm not a white supremacist , I know I'm not a Russian agent . These people are nuts . He just sort of laughs about it .

We almost have to get in that mindset , because I think we've let a lot of this go , j , because we are concerned about getting called a name , but the problem is that name doesn't mean anything . Right , they have muddied down the word racism so much where it should be comedy right now , and it's unfortunate because we do live in society .

As long as society is made up of human beings , there are going to be legitimate racists in that society . We should root those racist out . But it's actually hurt the cause when you call everybody that right , and especially calling someone a racist because they have the audacity To tell the truth .

Boy , I can't think of a worse stain on the civil rights movement than that right that we have people like that . But but I know that you have that attitude or you would not have done this right . This is next level truth telling and then I applaud you for that .

Now , j , you mentioned the FBI and the documentary , and this hasn't been talked about a lot in some of the other interviews . By the way , you went on the Glenn Lourie show and John McWhorter I got to give you kiddos .

Nobody really would have the guts to do that because these are some of the smartest men in our generation , right , these are very smart individuals , both college professors .

Mcwhorter's a linguistic professor , right , and here you are with your little PhD in communication going toe-toe , right , I was , I loved it , man , and we'll put links to all these interviews in our podcast .

But those guys hit you with some really tough questions , man , because I think they , legitimately , are trying to get to the truth and they know tough questions gets to the truth . You've been , of course , on the Megyn Kelly show and a bunch of other stuff before we get to the FBI stuff , just that's . That's new to you , man , like that'd be new to me .

Like , what was it like ? Don't get in that environment and speak into some of these folks that we all know .

I am an introvert . That was really difficult for me personally , but it's not difficult . Telling the truth should never be difficult . It's liberating . I don't have to keep track of lies , I don't have to worry about what the second . You get back to truth and you just go with it . It's easy , it's not hard .

And I'd love to sit here and say , oh , yeah , you know well . In my dissertation I basically told the world you know , hey , how everyone's been reading the revelation for the last 400 years . It's kind of wrong . And then I come along and say , yeah , everything you know about this whole George Floyd incident world . Sorry , you're wrong .

According to the mainstream media , this is completely wrong . Some people would say , yeah , it takes a lot of moxie , it takes a lot of Cajones , if you will , to show up and Stand there .

And when you have experts , when you have geniuses of our day and age , ask the tough questions that you One's a theoretical economist who understands society in ways that I can barely even track , and then you have a linguist who overlaps in the field I am communication , you know grilling you on , basically , the falsehoods and wanting to get at the truth .

On one way , the perception could be wow , you really need strength to do that . I would say this it was just telling the truth , it was just looking at empirical evidence , with concern for the truth and nothing else . Not profit , not ego , not getting more views , not getting more likes , not appealing to the masses , not getting more votes , just the truth .

It's easy , and if more people did that We'd have a lot less complications going on . I'm pretty sure about that .

It was a good 30 minutes of exactly proving the point how YouTube and all the other social media platforms are not technology platforms as they claim now . They're absolutely involved in editing and , more over , they are absolutely involved in censorship , undeniably .

That was refreshing to me to see that example unfold right while I was trying to check out the video and it was . It was quite . It really was funny to see , as , like , this is just proving my point .

Course , it's just much easier to let the truth stay on your platform , but that's a whole another topic . Jay , pretty good , you , you mentioned the FBI in the documentary , yeah , and you've sort of not many people have dove into this in your previous interviews .

But I want you to just kind of briefly discuss their role in this , because to me it's always strange . I've been the FBI National Academy . I've spent many , many weeks and months with FBI agents , most of them good people , but the upper echelon of the FBI , the management , like the FBI , highly , highly political .

I think everybody today knows that , without a doubt on what's going on , we almost have two tiers of justice and it's very clear to see once again , it's weird how people aren't outraged by that . I mean , some people are , but it's weird that you aren't outraged by that .

But but they got , they played a role in this , a pretty big role in this , which is always strange

to me . Local police work is Traditionally always sticks with localities . You know you need the FBI for some things . You know you have an international case or or maybe it's across state lines .

But for them to interject themselves so early on into this case , kind of tell us what you found out , what was telling them , sort of what you think's going on there .

We do have Chief Aradondo , in some form or another , saying that either he or we , meeting himself along with the mayor , reached out to the FBI to get them involved because of the so-called optics and the viral video and the way it looked Well you know I don't want to stop you , but there was another way here , like that was get back to what we just said .

Okay , people misunderstand what happened here . This is obviously a very viral video with a lot of information missing . Let's tell the truth . But instead of that , yeah , they call the FBI to help them .

That changed within days due to the ongoing Re-interviews , let's just say , between the ME , between the prosecutors and special agents from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and the FBI , all together in the same room or collectively on the same zoom call , exerting pressure and influence here . That's bizarre .

That deserves a whole , you know set of questioning . But another interesting thing is the DOJ , on the request of the FBI , goes to the office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner and requests another autopsy review not an actual autopsy , but a review of the autopsy to give their version of it . So the FBI and the DOJ can now scan on that version of it .

They literally watched a video or read the original autopsy and then gave their opinion , which is nothing compared to someone that actually does the autopsy .

So they sort of made it seem like , well , yeah , there's just one autopsy out here that says this , but don't pay attention to the actual autopsy , pay attention to what everybody is saying , that read the autopsy , which is nothing more than a personal opinion , so to speak . Everybody can have .

We know how that stinks , so but see how there's a lot of misunderstanding about that .

Like , imagine if you write this down on paper , travis and this is where absurdity comes in . And this is how I check my own beliefs or ideas , because I don't . I try not to believe everything I think , so to check it , I just write things down . So check this out , autopsy .

Do not look at body , do not examine body , do not look at actual tissues , do not look at actual blood samples , don't look at actual toxicology and blood . Just come up with your own ideas . That should sound insane . Yet that's what we're supposed to believe .

And , even worse , I can understand that when Ben Crump , the attorney for the family , gets an independent autopsy review , fine , I almost expect that he's running game trying to make money for his clients . I understand we should expect that .

But when the Department of Justice does the same thing , we need to be deeply concerned as Americans about what our government and our government representatives and officials are doing , supposedly on our behalf , when they're doing that same absurd thing that I just mentioned . So wait a minute . The DOJ is saying they just did an autopsy by what ?

Oh , let's ignore the body , let's not review it , let's not look at the bed . But here's our autopsy report . That should be alarming , that should be terrifying , that should bring on a plethora of questions that everyone should be demanding answers for . I'd even go so far as to say there should be riots over this .

There really should , because this is the absolute worst kind of administrative bureaucratic absurdity . And yet we're just sitting here like , oh yeah , and it's not even talked about . I guess I could say . Travis said that that would fall in line with one of the lies that wasn't in the documentary . It was highlighted for a second .

I made the decision of not to go into it so deep because it's a whole other layer of complication and I did want to avoid some of the political aspects here so people could think for themselves and see evidence . So we did deliberately avoid that , but that is nonetheless absurd .

They just kicked a door in of a reporter who was present on January 6 reporting and they just arrested him . Three years later , they've got people in prison for years for trespassing charges .

Once again , I know people start getting triggered when you talk about January 6 because the media has made you get triggered , but if you look at that for what it is , nobody's in prison for years for an insurrection . For the most part A lot of vast majority are trespassing charges , which is fine . That's a $100 fine in most cities , two days in jail .

But you have the DOJ getting involved treating this completely different than they treat I don't know burning down federal buildings in Oregon or killing police officers or a whole host of other things that have occurred . There's a different treatment and we should all be concerned about those two tiers of justice .

I don't care what your politics are , because even if you're on the right side of this two tiered justice today , as politics change , if that institution stays that way , you're then on the wrong side of it . So , as we speak today , you've got a lot of Democrats going .

They're down for censorship , which is odd , considering they used to be the party that wanted open freedom and expression , but they're down for censorship until it starts happening to them , because in other countries it's happening to Democrats . Facebook just figures out politically how they want those countries to go , and so we should all be alarmed by this .

But it's so hard to look at this without the political lens , because we've been made to think that everything's political . I want to get everybody back to what is right and what is wrong . Forget your politics . Right and wrong affects everybody , jay .

That's not for public safety , that's not in the vein of good representation for the American public . I'm sorry , I cannot see that and I cannot follow that . And back to those tiers . Clearly they are operating in concern with a different level or different kind of means and ends .

And , travis I will say this as part of being my last interview on this whole subject and again saving the best for last man I feel comfortable speaking with you and more than that , we have a shared history . So this part this isn't conjecture on my part , being the black sheep in my family .

So I'm the one who didn't go into a federal or an FBI sponsored service for witnesses . I'm not the one who was involved in probably , let's just say , a dozen or so murders . I'm not the one who was brought up on RICO charges , and what I'm saying by it's not conjecture .

I watched how this unfolds at arm's length across the dinner table at Thanksgiving , at Easter , all of this with members of my family , and to know what they did , what they got away with , sanctioned by our FBI for a different set of means , toward a different end , that would probably offend our sense of public safety and any idea of justice .

For all of that to go unchecked and a good 15 , 20 years later for them to suffer absolutely no consequence whatsoever , that offends my idea of truth , that completely offends my idea of right and wrong , and I'm talking about my own family .

So when I see that unfold right in front of me , no further than my nose , right there , it's not hard for me to realize that what went on in this case , when the FBI was called within three or four hours of this event taking place , to take on a completely different form , a completely different purpose , a completely different set of means toward a different end

, unlike justice we would expect . It's not hard . I've seen it happen , so maybe I did have a little bit more wherewithal to make those kind of connections . But it's clearly going on . And again , that's not opinion , that's not conjecture . I've seen it before and I can recognize clearly when . I see it happen again .

It's going to build community trust and use all these words we talked about words earlier and they go into these cities and these cities are effectively destroyed . Not my opinion . You can look at the data 12 of the top 20 murder cities , capitals of this country , are run by the DLJ under consent decrees .

An article just came out that the most dangerous cities during the holidays half of those cities are run by the DLJ consent decrees cities . New Orleans is their violent crimes up 97% after the DLJ came into town . Cleveland's up 50% after the DLJ came into town .

It is designed to actually destroy these cities , and so their involvement is doing that , and so American citizens are experiencing this , but they may not understand why , right , and so they have to pay better attention . They have to do what the media was supposed to do in a democracy , which is to hold power accountable .

We don't have a media that does that anymore and , jay , you've done your part , liz has done her part . But now it falls on individual citizens that every time they see a lie they must respond . Even if it's every time we celebrate George Floyd's birthday on Twitter from our politicians that are all copy and pasted and they all send it out .

We hit them a reply with the follow miniapoliscom . You know we shamed them and we anybody telling a falsehood . We must no longer just shake our head , we must respond . It falls on American citizens . If you love the country you're in , or the love of the country you used to be in , you must hold truth to power and hold them accountable .

Systemically racism exists , no escape , despite all these do good in leaders who are telling us otherwise , and they're wearing the same uniforms . Okay , that aside , this is precisely the operation . This is what working , the machinery of different means to different ends looks like . We have these consent decrees happening .

They're not making cities any better , like you said , travis , and when you compare cities that are under , you know , police departments that are under a consent decree , with crime rates , and you start to notice these really strange correlations that do not be speak outstanding public safety and low crime and citizens who are thriving and not vulnerable .

There's something else going on here , and I think Minneapolis looked like a wonderful opportunity from folks on the other side with some other ends in mind and other purpose to absolutely run into this . This was a gift . This was like hey , we don't even need the Trojan horse , it's just given to us . Let's just follow this narrative and away we go .

Oh , and hey , by the way . If we can get these four officers all hooked up on civil rights charges , all the more better and get them federal charges , all the more better . There's a problem there . It's not helping , it's not improving , it's not making cities safer .

And back to what you said , Travis , whether it needs to be advocacy , whether it needs to be taking action or whether it's just ignoring people who are lying and calling them out for lying and not being willing to accept myths , truths and say no , I don't disrespect myself . I demand and expect the truth , because that's what I want to give to everyone else .

We'll start to get out of this moral morass that we're in . Otherwise , this is what's gonna happen the DOJ is gonna run , rip shot over every major city we have in this country , and it's already happened , travis , this is well underway .

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist that I also get called and everyone says that's what I am , so I'm a Nazi conspiracy theorist . No , this is here Again . It's empirical Again . You can look at all this stuff .

You do that on law officer a lot when you , when you're talking about these things , the articles that your writers and contributors bring up . This is empirical evidence and this is . Our so-called government agencies , who are supposed to represent us and help us and protect us , are doing the exact opposite by so many undeniable measures .

Yet leadership and everyone else seems to be sitting back as if this is all fine and dandy .

Leaders fed the lie . Leaders are going to keep using the lie . We have to stop them collectively as being our own leaders . Right , we have to stop putting our trust into these maniacs that have done this , and you've gone above and beyond trying to point this out , and that's what we try to do every day here with courageous leadership .

It's kind of weird to go courageous leadership . It shouldn't be courageous to tell the truth . It shouldn't be courageous to do the right thing . It shouldn't be courageous to treat people the way you want to be treated . It's so weird that we have to call it a special name , right , but that's the society we're in and that's why we do this podcast .

That's why we wanted to bring Dr Shay on to encourage you listening . You're not isolated , you're . You see this . But we need you to take actionable steps towards it , and we're going to work throughout the next year to give you those actionable steps . Dr J . C . Chaix , I'm so honored that you came on .

As you said , you kept the best for last , and I think you probably did , although you're probably on much high profile shows . I certainly appreciate you using our platform to kind of give your final parting words on such a tremendous work that you've done here , and I wish you all the best and success in the future .

So thank you so much for being with us today .