Courage and Integrity with Dr. Roland Fryer

Another time I said , let me ask this If the second part about the police shootings this is a literal conversation . I said to them , if the second part showed bias , do you think I should publish it then ? And they say yeah , then it would make sense . And I said I guarantee y'all publish it .

I know I talk about law enforcement a lot , I talk about leadership a lot and of course there's plenty of cowards there but just in general , when you look around and you see some of the ills of society , the dregs of society and what is happening , the sheer silence of people of not wanting to speak up or take action or advocate for anything that seems to be

good , moral and right , it's very frustrating because that is how things go very , very bad for entire country , cities , counties and , of course , organizations the cowardice in leadership , the cowardice in general .

But , with that said , when I find someone that has been courageous and has ultimately paid a price , I've got to speak about it and we've talked a lot about some folks in law enforcement that's done that . But there's one particular example and I actually wrote an article last week on the sub stack TravisHsubstackcom .

If you can't remember that , you can just go to TravisHorg and you can go over to the sub stack link and grab that article . In fact , if you go over sub stack , you can just put your email in and every time I write an article you'll get notified about it .

And I'm very , very honored that we have close to 1,000 people in the last 12 months that are getting those articles . And that's encouraging to me because you're not gonna sign up for those articles if you don't like what you're reading . So that tells me that there are plenty of folks that believe in what we're talking about .

And what we're talking about on a weekly basis is courageous leadership . Now , everybody knows what leadership is right . Everybody may has a different definition of that , but I think people understand what that is . The shortest terminology I've ever used is its influence .

You know it's people that can influence others , but without the courage around that meaning , when things get tough , when you have something to lose , when it may hurt your career or it may hurt anything or your reputation , you'd still do it anyway . That's why we talk about principles a lot , because if you have principles , you will not back down .

But we really live in a society where so many people will talk about leadership or talk about doing what's right until it could affect them in a negative way .

And there was a 90 minute video that came out on Dr Roland Fryer . He gave a talk at the University of Texas in Austin and I wanna kinda back up and tell you about Dr Fryer . I first wrote about Dr Fryer in my book in 2019 called the Courageous Police Leader .

I was so impressed at the time because I spent about a chapter on it , because Dr Fryer's research on police use of force is the only research I have seen that has been done properly . And I've done a fair amount of research myself . Of course . I have my doctorate in strategic leadership .

I've had to do research , I've had to do dissertation , so I understand , when I look at research , what real research is . And if you weren't aware of this , the academic world's been kinda taken over by cowards . Very few times do you see research on law enforcement that's done correctly . An example is all of the use of force research most people cite .

They compare police activity to the US census . That's not real research . In fact , dr Robin Engel from University of Cincinnati calls that junk science , because you're kinda not comparing apples to apples , so to speak , and I don't have time to go into all of that .

If you come to our seminars , we go into that and talk about how our leaders can actually look at this from a data and research fact-based center .

But Dr Fryer basically saw what was going on in Baltimore with Freddie Gray , saw what was going on in Ferguson , Michael Brown , and , of course , if you remember back to those years 2014 , 2016 , I believe it was pretty outrageous when the story came out .

We all know now , looking back , that it was most of all of that was lies Ferguson especially and many of these high profile stories that the media ran with that affected law enforcement . Such a negative way turned out to be lies .

But Dr Fryer Was really a guy that kind of grew up in a horrible environment and no father , no mother , grandmother raised him , was getting good grades but was not rewarded for that . Nobody thought that was cool .

He goes into this interview talking about this and he admittedly did not like the police , worked his way up from a drive-through at McDonald's to becoming the youngest tenured professor at Harvard University at the age of 30 a very impressive guy .

But he saw what was happening and , of course , you remember the protests , you remember the riots , you remember the outrage and he decides I want to do my part to reform police . And so what's my gifts ? I can do research . He calls himself a data nerd .

So he decides to do research and this research is Called an empirical analysis of racial differences in police use of force . I'll link that up in this document . And fryer Basically said listen , this is gonna be the easiest research ever . I know the police are biased . I know the police are racist . Now it's odd that an academic guy would say that .

But this is sort of what it's out there , right ? He said I'm just gonna grab some data and I'll put it in a database . I'll do my research and I'll prove to the world that police are actually racist . He talks about this in the interview . He has this hardwired sense of he's a truth teller , regardless of what's being said or done or the narrative .

He said he wants to tell the truth . He's an economics professor and he wants to tell the truth . In fact he says in the interview he goes I can't lie to my community . He's talking about the black community . I have to tell them the truth , whether people like it or not .

So what he decided to do , instead of just pulling data or looking at the US census , what everybody else seems to do he set up right alongs across the country . He rode with a bunch of police officers , he figured out what kind of data he needed and he pulled that data from several agencies across the country .

The study goes into that and , according to him , he had Millions of points of data . He hired eight researchers and for a year , they went through the data and the end outcome shocked him and the outcome said that , when it comes to police deadly force , there was no bias . In fact , knowing was there no bias Per the crimes being committed ?

He would have expected more African Americans being shot by police . He literally found no bias . Now you got to remember the narrative . In 2016 and 2017 , Dr . Fryer was about to put out a research report that went against the narrative .

Now , this narrative had no fact basis , right , that's just what people said , and this was Very well done research that said the opposite . Now Fryer was so shocked by it he decided to hire eight more researchers and Redo the study and it came back exactly the same . It's a very interesting study . His colleagues told him not to publish it .

His colleagues told him it would ruin his career , and Fryer was really confused by this . He said well , this is research , this is what we do . We don't dictate the outcome . This is why academics exist or it used to be , of course and Fryer put the study out . I want you to hear directly from him on Exactly how that went down .

I'm not saying that people shouldn't protest , go for it but seemed hot outside I just didn't want to do it and so I thought I want to do something , and only thing I know how to do is I'm one of the world's biggest data nerds . So I said this is going to be the easiest paper I ever write . I'm going to go get some data .

I'm going to go show that the police are biased . Finally , people are gonna like me and my grandmother is gonna go . You show that the police don't like black people . Really , what are you doing up there ? Right , like this was .

I had it all laid out and then I had dinner with a colleague of mine and I was telling him about my plan and he says you know , roland , when you work on schools and other stuff like that , you really just are in the schools , and so it's weird for me strange that you would just download police data and not understand more about the police .

He says I wonder what the police are maximizing . A very Econ kind of thing to ask I wonder what the police are maximizing .

And it dawned on me in that moment I Didn't know , nor did I think I cared , so I said , okay , fine , I didn't give him credit in the moment , but I left and said you know what I'm gonna do , I'm gonna go figure out what police maximize . So I set up ride-alongs in Camden , philadelphia , houston , some places in Massachusetts , to ride along with the police .

Now , back to 1991 , I don't like the police very much .

Granted , they were selling a lot of drugs , but , again , not the greatest customer service . So I was biased against the police , that's obvious . I went and I don't think I've received a better education since my grandmother taught me to read . It's a hard job and I know that sounds obvious . Sitting on a stage , it's a really hard job .

I am a terrible police officer . After four hours everyone looked like a criminal to me . I don't know if I was angry . I don't know what it was . I'm telling you I am serious . They were like you could never be a cop Because I was like hey , let's pull over that kid's got a basketball . I don't like it .

I participated in these weapons training not real weapons , relax , but these weapons trainings where there's simulations and some guy like I'm in the building , the guy walks out , he's got a baby . I shoot the guy right in the head and they're like what was about the baby ? I said sorry , I didn't see the baby .

I wasn't bad Police officer , but what I really did , I'm serious . I realized the job is really hard . It was the end of a 12-hour shift in Camden and we get a call for a potential overdose in a row house . It's an abandoned building . We bust in .

A person dies within six feet of me and it shook me up a little bit , and so I looked at the guys I was with and I said yo , how about beers on me ? And they said what do you mean ? Beers are on you . I said I don't know . I don't know how to say it . Do you want me to speak in Greek ? I mean , I don't know , it's , beers are on me .

We should leave here , Let the paramedics take over , we should go . And they said we got to go back to work . And I said but we just saw somebody die and the police chief overheard me and he was incredulous .

He says , roland , if I gave everybody a break every time someone died , I wouldn't have known I'm a cover the shifts and I was like , wow , it is a hard job .

And so through these experiences , long story short , I collected a lot of data , and those experiences helped me understand what types of data that was going to be , and those experiences helped me understand what types of data to collect . We collected millions of observations on everyday use of force that wasn't lethal .

We collected thousands of observations on lethal force and the key question I alluded to it earlier in a bit of a joke , but the key question is not just this arbitrary , silly snapshots that some journalists , not named Barry , do a lot is black people are 13% of the population and they are 50% of the police shootings .

I'm sorry about that , but I don't know what that has to do with the question . Right , and it was in this moment in 2016 that I realized people lose their minds when they don't like the result .

Right , and so what my paper showed you'll see tomorrow , like some of you was that , yes , we saw some bias in the low level uses of force everyday pushing up against cars and things like that . People sent to like that result , but we didn't find any racial bias in police shootings . Now that was really surprising to me because I expected to see it .

The little known fact is I had eight full-time RAs that it took to do this over nearly a year . When I found this surprising result , I hired eight fresh ones and redid it to make sure they came up with the same exact answer and I thought it was robust . And then I went to go give it and , my god , all hell broke loose .

People lost their minds . I mean it was like colleagues of mine were going well , I don't believe these results . He's using regressions . I'm like well , what the hell has we been using ? I mean , we've been using them for ever . That's what you use . And I had colleagues take me into the side and say don't publish this , you'll ruin your career .

I said what are you talking about ? I said what's wrong with it ? Do you believe the first part ? Yes , do you believe the second part ? Well , it's . The issue is they just don't fit together . We like the first one , but you should publish the second one .

Another time I said let me ask this If the second part about the police shootings this is a literal conversation . I said to them if the second part showed bias , do you think I should publish it then ? And they say , yeah , then it would make sense . And I said I guarantee you I'll publish it , we'll see what happens . So it was .

I lived under police protection for about 30 or 40 days . I had a seven day old daughter at the time . I remember going and shopping for it because when you have a newborn , you think you have enough diapers . You don't . So I was going to the grocery store to get diapers with an armed guard . It was crazy .

It was really truly crazy and yeah , it was a really phenomenal experience .

It was incredible what he had to go through . But Barry Weiss , who is interviewing him , asked him and this is why I wanted you to hear this . It's very important for you to hear from Dr Fryer and not me today , because it's so encouraging what you hear from him . She asked him .

She says this listen , leaders come to a decision point and when that decision point comes and what she's referring to is you can go right or left , you can go with the narrative and you're gonna be just fine , but if you go the opposite way , you could be destroyed . And she says she said most people go with the narrative . That's the safe pick .

By the way , that's what we call cowardice . Right , that's what we call cowardice . She said what made you different when most aren't ? Why would you make the choice you make ? And , folks , you gotta hear his answer .

I think it's what's in all courageous leaders , it's what's in all of us that know who we are , that know our identity , that knows the truth matters . Here's what Dr Fryer said .

You were the golden , I mean , you were a golden boy at that point . I'm gonna preserve my popularity , my ability to get along with my colleagues . Someone nice to sit next to me in the cafeteria , like every incentive , to use an economics term , would be pushing you to make that choice . What is it inside of you ? What can everyone here learn about ?

What allows you to make the opposite choice ? To make the choice that would force you to suffer all of the consequences you would come to suffer , some a direct result and some adjacent to it .

So not every incentive was pushing in that direction , because every day I have to look myself in the mirror and say what are you here for ? What did you leave behind ? I did not grow up wanting to go to Harvard . I didn't . I really didn't .

I wanted to do something and I , like many others in here I wanna acknowledge that have suffered a lot of losses in my life . My grandmother's no longer here . My father is dead . I don't know where my mother is . I have they're all gone . Every single cousin is gone . My favorite cousin .

The day he got released out of prison after 25 years , someone walked up behind him and shot him directly in the head . So I have to make this journey worth it . I am here because I want to solve problems . I am here because I have seen so much talent in these neighborhoods and I know they know bullshit when they see it .

So I'm not going to lie to them . I wouldn't be able to show my face in these places If I told lies to them like , oh , I heard this result from you .

The thing about it is , if you do a result , what has happened with the actual police departments is that because they actually believe the results and they're willing to reform on the lower level , uses of force because someone told the truth about the others and you know it's , the importance of being thought of someone , of being an actual truth teller , is so so ,

very important . Maybe not in the moment , but I don't . I didn't go to Harvard to have Chardonnay at 10.30 in the morning . I just don't want to . It's not my thing and it's okay if it's someone else's thing , it's just not my thing . I came here , came there , I went there to make a difference Truly .

I know that sounds naive to many of you , but , as I tell my students , remember when you came to Harvard you had lofty dreams of change in the world . It wasn't downside risk protection , right , everybody I know who I've seen walk through that those Ivy doors rocks the boat until they get in the boat and then they say steady now .

I rocked the boat until I got in the boat and I said let's see how fast we can go and I've fallen out . The boat got run over by the boat and it is what it is . But you got to be for something Right , and so I . I mean , I actually don't understand those other people . I don't know what they're maximizing .

If you have those deep rooted principles , you can call them moral compasses , you could call them your personal credo , you can call them knowing your identity , knowing who you are , not letting other people dictate who you are . If you have that value system , you don't change .

Nobody's going to sway you , doesn't matter what chaos comes your way , doesn't matter what cancel culture comes your way . You know who you are , you know who is important , you know what is important and you know that the truth can change everything . See , cowards will never change anything . They may have a comfortable life , but they'll never change anything .

At the heart of what courageous leadership is Is what you heard Dr Fryer refer to several times being a truth teller , is what it's about being a truth teller ? Okay , that's what courage can change the world , and I hope you're encouraged by that . Now , I find it odd that telling the truth is courageous . That's the , that's the area we're in , folks .

I want to encourage you , no matter what can happen , no matter the fear that you have , because you don't have courage without fear right , it wouldn't be called courage . It matters to stand up for what is right . I hope you're encouraged by Dr Fryer and I tell you we all in law enforcement owe him a debt of gratitude .

Can you imagine , without this study , where we could be today ? It's the only study , if it's kind , and I wouldn't expect another one , because everyone looked and saw what happened to Dr Fryer and they would not dare do another study like this . But you can't poke holes in it . He made sure of that and we owe him so so much .

So thanks for listening , thanks for being here , and just remember lead on and stay courageous .