Episode 3: 40 Minutes

Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. Every Monday, me and my best friend Britt break down a new case, but not in the way you've heard before, and not the way. You've heard before. You'll hear stories on Crime Junkie that haven't been told anywhere else. I'll tell you what you can do to help victims and their families get justice.

Join us for new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday, already waiting for you by searching for Crime Junkie wherever you listen to podcasts. This is episode 3, 40 Minutes. A quick note, if while listening to this season you recognize any of the names or locations that are being discussed and have information you'd like to share, send me an email at counterclockaudiochuck.com.

On the morning of the Lame Bryant murders, the killer benefited from two very critical, very lucky breaks. Lucky Break number one. As I mentioned in the previous episode, there were no security cameras inside the Lane Bryant that showed the crime taking place. And lucky break number two, he somehow avoided crossing paths with a Tinley Park police officer who was responding to an unrelated call inside Brookside Marketplace at the same time as the Yeah.

We had an officer within three hundred yards of that store when we got when the call came in. and he obviously dropped everything, jumped in the car, and went over. And there is a feeling that he and the killer crossed. We missed this guy by seconds. You know, I I go down maybe thirty seconds. Difference in time would have made what a difference. What a difference. There's no way they coulda even known or thought to see who are they looking for. You don't have a description yet.

This killer had every possible break that he could. A police officer is in the shopping center, responds in a minute. This guy had a lot of things break in his direction. The fact we're still talking about the case nearly 18 years later. Tells you that he's he's either lucky or good.

The killer managing to slink out of sight so quickly was unfortunate, but authorities weren't at a total loss. In his wake, the offender had left several clues that were of immeasurable value. There was a living eyewitness who knew what he looked like. He'd left behind partial fingerprints as well as shell casings from a 40-caliber semi-automatic handgun. And there was a camera in Brookside Marketplace that he likely had no idea had a line of sight of the Lane Bryant storefront.

Investigators are hoping this video helps solve the Lane Bryant shooting case. This grainy black and white video shows a dark-colored SUV and a dark sedan near the suburban Chicago clothing store around the time of the deadly February 2nd shootings. A surveillance camera at a target store about 100 yards away captured the images.

That's right. Not far from the unmistakable bullseye logo on the super target about 200 yards away from the lane Brian. There was a panning surveillance camera mounted on top of the building. I clocked it when I was at Brookside Marketplace a few months ago. I can look over and actually see where the surveillance camera would have been in 2008. It is unreal how close.

the target is to the site of the former Lane Bryant store. Like if I did a swift run, I could probably get to the front of the super target in in less than 45 seconds. According to sources I spoke with, in 2008, Target's security camera was a panning camera, meaning that it panned across sections of the parking lot at certain points in time. So leading up to and after the murders, there were blind spots where the camera did not show what was happening in front of the Lane Bryant.

However, between 10:30 and 10:46 a.m., it had panned toward the parking lot in front of the strip plaza that housed the women's clothing store.

And that specific timeframe, 10:30 to 10:46 a.m., was crucial for two very important reasons. 1. Rhoda McFarlane dialed 911 at approximately 1044 a.m. Shortly after that is when the murders occurred. And two, the dash cam video from the first responding officer's police cruisers showed that they arrived at 10:46 a.m., about two minutes after the 911 call was received.

Now, assuming, as authorities have, that the timestamps on all the recording devices were accurate, the killer had less than two minutes to shoot all six women and then escape. In the weeks after the crime, Tinley Parks Police Chief Mike O'Connell told the press that his department initially considered the video insignificant when they discovered it.

But they gave the footage to America's Most Wanted anyway to see what they could do with it. And the show's reporting team, led by producer Jenna Griffiths, got to work trying to deduce as much as possible from it. Fox TV's America's Most Wanted paid a NASA scientist to enhance it. For the surveillance video, we went down to Hudsville in Alabama. We had a man look at it from NASA. We were trying to isolate the grainy video to see what best you could find. Dr. David Hassan.

Invented a method of Clearer images from the first time. While we were working on the first time, we're going to be able to do Dr. Hathaway, we made a crucial discovery. So that looks to me like some sort of dark colored If I can ask you. Minivan or SUV, right in front of the store, right about the time that the killings would have happened. That's amazing. Yeah, it's definitely not there now. That's what we're gonna want to look at. That's absolutely amazing. See another vehicle here though.

Not one, but two vehicles parked in front of the Lane Bryant storefront one minute and then gone the next. Yeah, 1044, there's uh a car here in front of this. or a van parked straight on into the store. A minute later, the car in front of the The other banner still there. after that, SUB your van that's parked straight on into the store.

Despite the poor quality of the surveillance footage, it was clear that at 10:39 a.m. and 10:40 a.m., two dark-colored vehicles, one which appeared to be an SUV with an off-center license plate holder, and a dark sedan, Parked in front of a vacant storefront to the left of the lane, Bryant. Then, at 10.44, one leaves, immediately followed by the other at 1045 a.m.

we were excited that we felt, yeah, there might really be something here, especially with like the location of the license plate. We thought this could be nothing or this could be something, but at least it's something. Jenna and her team brought what they'd found to the police's attention, but they were met with mixed reactions. Some folks in the war room were unimpressed and deemed the images too inconclusive because they were grainy and didn't reveal any license plate information.

Former commander Rick Bruno told me he's still unsure what he thinks about the relevance of the footage. They could potentially mean that that was him or his accomplice. It could also potentially mean that it was somebody that was done shopping and left. I wanted to dig as far into this video as I possibly could, mostly because of how suspicious the timing of the vehicle's arrivals and departures were.

Tinley Park Police would not approve my FOIA request to get a copy of the raw footage, but we were able to procure licensing for America's Most Wanted segment. Images of the video that the NASA expert analyzed are on the blog post for this episode. One big reason why I have a hard time buying the cars belong to unassuming customers theory is because, well, it doesn't make sense.

When I interviewed Marie, the Sally's beauty supply employee who overheard the murders, she told me something that piqued my interest. Between when you heard the clang sound, which we know was the gunshots, and when you heard someone into your store, you guys didn't have any customers come in. Correct.

Which means whoever was in the two mystery vehicles wasn't at Brookside Marketplace that Saturday morning to shop at Sally's. And because there weren't more than six victims from the Lane Bryant, I think it's I think it's safe to say the occupants of the cars also were not at Brookside Marketplace that morning for full figured women's clothing.

In the Target surveillance footage, it's obvious there was ample parking in front of the strip plaza that housed the Lane Bryant, like a lot of open spots. But the cars parked in front of a four-lease storefront. So whoever were in those vehicles were not shopping at your retailer. They weren't shopping at the Lame Bryant, which would have left at y'all's side of the plaza what other retailers? There were unleashed units. Mm-hmm. Around you and Elaine Bryant.

Now it's possible the occupants of the two mystery cars could have been shopping at the other retailers on the opposite end of the strip plaza as Lane Bryant and Sally's. But then my question is, why didn't they park closer to those other stores? Why did they park in front of a vacant storefront next to Sally's and Lane Bryant?

It seems more likely to me that the drivers of those cars chose where they parked for a reason. And it's logical to at least consider that reason might have something to do with the crime that took place that morning. Officially, though, Tinley Park police have never clarified if the two vehicles seen in the target surveillance footage are connected to the suspect or a possible accomplice.

However, they've also never said that they aren't. So absent TPPD's input were left to deduce only a few things about the mystery vehicle. The most interesting of which is the placement of the license plate on the one that appears to be an SUV. It wasn't centered, it was like on the left. That detail suggested the vehicle could be a specific make-and-model, perhaps a Land Rover Discovery, or an older model Jeep, or even a Suzuki depending on the year.

To this day, no one, but maybe the police, know for sure what kind of vehicles the SUV and sedan were or who they belonged to.

And when it comes down to it, there was a far more crucial piece of evidence that was recorded at the time of the crime, which police deemed intrinsically more significant. The killer's voice. Thank you. In episode one, I told you that the full 911 call Rhoda McFarlane made while she and the other women were being held in the Lane Bryant store has never been publicly released. And that's true. It hasn't.

But in 2008, when police gave America's most wanted the target surveillance footage, they also gave the show's producers about 37 seconds of the 911 call. The audio was spliced and heavily edited so that background noise, like the victims' voices, couldn't be heard, leaving only the offender's voice audible.

And as you can tell, it's very difficult to delineate anything he's saying. Which is why America's Most Wanted sought some expertise from the FBI's forensics audio unit when they got a hold of the clips back in 2008. What do we think they're saying there, or he's saying there? It sounds like he's instructing the victim to put uh something in the bag.

We didn't just want to take the elements that the police gave us and just show them as they were. We really wanted to have experts analyze them much better than, you know, my eyes or my ears could hear. For the audio we went to Kwanico in Virginia to try to isolate the audio as best as we could.

really not clear what the perpetrator is saying. So we were trying to isolate his audio and also maybe, you know, a relative of the perpetrator would recognize the voice or did the voice have a specific accent to it. I think that he's saying Set up you. Oh, set up, like sit up. Right. That could tell us something though about his dialect.

As the experts at Quantico slowed the clips down, removed background noise, and played the audio at varying speeds, they concluded the perpetrator had uttered some specific phrases while yelling in the background, seemingly unaware he was being recorded. For example, in this snippet. It's believed he might be saying, Don't be a hero, all right? And in this clip. It sounds like he's saying, I'm losing.

Now, no one but police know the full context of the call or how long it lasts, but they've confirmed publicly that the fatal gunshots were recorded at the end of it. Marking the victim's times of death as somewhere between ten forty four and ten forty five AM. Here's Michelle Tallos, Jennifer Bishop's sister. I believe I was told that you can actually hear the shots fired, but of course they're not gonna let us hear that.

It's assumed that when the offender discovered Rhoda was on the line with 911, either via her Bluetooth headset or an actual phone, he began shooting. And there's credible evidence that supports that sequence of events. During my interview with Don Palichek, one of the first paramedics who was on scene, she mentioned an interesting detail about the position of Rhoda's body in Lane Bryant's stockroom. Her body was not with their own. the other side.

Meaning, the four victims and the survivor were all together, but Rhoda was slightly across the room from them by herself. Rhoda's head wound was also different from the other victims. She was shot in the front of the head. She was shot uh executioner style. All of the other women were shot in the back of their head. Investigators have never publicly said if Rhoda was the first person to be killed, but her boyfriend Stuart Gibbs told me that in private, police confirmed to him that was the case.

She was first. I know she was first. To further corroborate that detail, I visited the dispatcher who took the 911 call, but she declined to do an interview expressing to me that it was still too traumatic to talk about the murders, even this many years later.

From speaking with other victims' family members, I learned that at least some of the women were shot in the head more than once. But for the sake of not compromising anything investigators might be working on now, I'm not going to reveal which one. And it's that same sentiment, the desire to protect the integrity of the world. In the world of true crime, the real story isn't always in the headlines. It's in the evidence. I'm Brandi Churchwell, host of Thirteenth Juror Podcast.

And I'm here to take you past the news cycle and straight into the courtroom. Every week, I'll break down the investigation, the prosecution, the defense, and everything that unfolds beyond the jury box. We'll examine every testimony, every exhibit, and every hidden motive. Listen to 13th Juror wherever you get your podcast.

case that prompted Tinley Park Police to edit the 911 call so heavily before giving some of the audio to America's most wanted. Here's former Tinley Park Mayor, Ed Zebraki. And the general feeling was release everything we possibly can except.

a couple things that would be unique to the killing that only the killer would know. And so they kept back some things from that standpoint. But otherwise we released as much information as we could Reason being is that the more information is out there, the number one, the less rumors you have, and number two, the more likely you are to get people to help. The hope was that someone who recognized the killer's voice or speech pattern would contact authority.

Whether anyone did that though is something only the police would know. To this day, the 37 seconds of edited 911 audio remains on a web page that the Tinley Park Police Department has dedicated to the Lane Bryant case. You can listen to it as many times as you want. However, back in March 2008, when America's Most Wanted aired its segment, that was the first time any of the victims' loved ones heard audio from the call.

And ever since then, Michael Hudak and Tony Chuso, Carrie Chuso's brother and her husband, have never been able to unhear. Clearly you can hear him screaming and there he's obviously st struggling with something. He's somebody's son, you're right, somebody's nephew, somebody's uncle, he's he's somebody's family member. I've listened to it tons of times. Why did you listen? I wanted to see if I can hear if I can hear Carrie like if I can hear Carrie or if just if I can hear anything.

Jennifer Bishop's sister, Michelle Tallos, has listened to the audio numerous times too, and spirals on what it all means. when the guy starts talking, he says, I'm losing it, I'm losing it. Nobody else has said that's what he's saying, but that's what I keep thinking I hear and that maybe That just makes sense to me because then he got so angry, maybe he freaked out and got so upset that that's when he killed them.

And he was really surprised that somebody was able to make a phone call and so, you know, I think he did lose it. I always have this picture, my sister was a take charge kind of girl and Maurice said hi you know, his sister was the same way and so I I could see'em all, you know, giving each other eye signals or something like, We're gonna do this, we're gonna you know, do that and kinda fightin''em to the end or whatever.

What's excruciating for the families is wondering what was likely going through the victims' minds in their final moment. Is this really happening to me? Is this going to happen? How do I get out of this for my kids, my family? How can I get back to them? I can't imagine what was running through her mind. From what I understand, their hands were bound with duct tape and so were their their mouths were tied, so I don't know even if she got to say anything, if there was even an opportunity to.

Rhoda McFarlane's brother Maurice and her boyfriend Stuart believe Rhoda, the eldest of the victims, likely sensed the other women's collective fear, and that's why, even when she got the chance to escape, she didn't. Chi dialed 911 Rhoda. Yeah. Cherice Hamilton McFarlane was not leaving that store without them other women. It was talked that she could have ran out the back door, but Rhoda wasn't going nowhere without him. The kind of person she is, if I go, they go too. That's just who she is.

Can I play the tape and say that? Damn, I wish he could have got out and went to go seek help. I would've got a chance to see you. But To go the way she went, you know, I just knew how she is. that call meant a great deal. That at least started the ball rolling, so to speak, and I y you have to admire uh Miss MacFarlane for doing that. She risked her life doing that and obviously was taken after that.

During my interview with former TPPD Commander Rick Bruno, I got a sense that the killer's words and actions during the forty minutes or so he was with the victims still haunt. I thought that's the enemy. This is who we're going to find. He is the bad guy.

As we sat together at his kitchen table, I couldn't help but notice that as he discussed the inside information of what he knew about the 911 call and what the survivor had relayed to police about the offender's behavior during those forty minutes. His expression began to change. I could tell he was thinking deeply about something, but trying hard not to show it. It was like he was back in 2008 all over again, back to a moment of pause I suspected he hadn't thought about in a very long time.

So I trusted my gut and I asked a simple question. Do you think that this shooter was from Tinley Park or outside? I don't know Do you have a thought? A hunch? Only one. Retired Tinley Park police commander Rick Bruno is convinced there's an important clue about the Lane Bryant killer, hidden in the way he said one specific word. I can tell you that he referred to the town as Tinley. And if you're from Des Moines, Iowa, and you come to Tinley Park, you refer to it as Tinley Park.

If you're from the area, you might refer to it as Tinley. He said Tinley, and that kind of made me go, hmm. It would make you think maybe is he from a a surrounding suburb? Right. And uses that sort of colloquial phrasing. Right. I suddenly understood exactly what Rick was saying, and it made total sense. During my investigation, I've spent a lot of time in Tinley Park and other Chicago suburbs with two-word names. Places like Orland Park and Homer Glen.

And as someone who isn't native to Illinois, I almost always refer to these places by their full name. However, nearly all of the locals I spoke with didn't. People I interviewed in the city, in the northern suburbs, in the south suburbs, and everywhere in between often used abbreviated names like Tinley, Orland, or Homer whenever they referenced two-word townships or villages. So when Rick told me how the offender referred to Tinley Park. He said ten layers.

It felt significant, especially when you consider the fact that the killer made such a seamless escape. Could he have been familiar with the traffic arteries that led out of Brookside Marketplace because he'd been there before? Or at least driven by on a regular basis? I think he knew the area. I think he knew the store that he was going to hit. I don't think he just walked in without planning. Do you think he would have had to have cased that plaza prior to this crime?

Yes. Based on what I know, I tend to agree with Rick. Remember, the killer came to the store armed with a gun. He brought his own duct tape, and he posed as a delivery person to gain access to the store. It's that last part that stumps Erica Karsdens. Thanks.

She was off work on the morning of the crime, but she knew Rhoda McFarland and the survivor well. Not to mention the store's protocol for interacting with delivery drivers. There was a back door because that's where we had to take out the garbage. If it was opened, we'd have to use a key to open it from the inside. The only time we really opened it was if there were deliveries and they would buzz if there was a delivery. Very rarely the

In the world of true crime, the real story isn't always in the headlines. It's in the evidence. I'm Brandi Churchwell, host of Thirteenth Zero Podcast. And I'm here to take you past the news cycle and straight into the courtroom. Every week, I'll break down the investigation, the prosecution, the defense, and everything that unfolds beyond the jury box. We'll examine every testimony, every exhibit, and every hidden motive. Listen to 13th Juror wherever you get your podcast.

would come through the front. If it was mail, they'd always come through the front. But it was like a special like a delivery of like stuff for um the store, it would always be in the back. Same situation for the Sally's beauty supply next door.

if we had our weekly restock shipment, those would go t to the back.'Cause there was kind of a driveway passage in the back. That's where the trash was and that's where our back delivery would come through. And that guy would typically just knock on the door. According to Marie and Erica, there weren't many delivery drivers who serviced the plaza who employees didn't recognize.

There was definitely some people that we knew would be our repeaters and they wouldn't we would usually know them by name. If they were new, they'd be like, Oh, I'm taking over for so and so. And even more interesting, Saturday morning deliveries were unheard of. On weekly deliveries for your retailer, but also if you ever saw for the neighboring store, were those ever occurring on Saturday mornings? No. Yeah, almost never. That would have been unusual even for another retailer in that plaza.

So that's why Erica can't figure out why her coworkers would have let someone in that they didn't recognize on a day that getting a delivery would have been unusual. Maybe, like journalist Ben Bradley surmised, the killer really was just that good. He's either lucky or good, which is also scary, isn't it?

When I first visited Brookside Marketplace to get a better lay of the land and see the same routes the killer had taken, it was a busy Saturday morning. I've just arrived to the Brookside Marketplace here in Tinley Park and looking directly at the super target. And if I turn a hundred and eighty degrees and look the opposite direction, about a hundred to two hundred yards away, is the former side of the Lane Bryant store, which is in like another strip mall plaza.

The first thing I noticed when I walked over to the former side of the Lane Bryant store was how close the building is to a major thoroughfare called Harlem Avenue and Interstate 80. I'm gonna walk to back of the plaza where Lane Bryant was. Yeah, I don't know if you're gonna hear that. Those are the sounds of the trucks. Not too much has changed since 2008. A few new stores have come in and additional outparcels or two have been built, but that's about it.

You can actually walk back here. It's it's basically like a single road that, you know, like trucks and stuff would deliver to the back of the stores. There's trees on the right, there's a chain link fence. I don't know if that fence was here in 2008, but there's a chain link fence

some greenway, like just brush really. There may be some water back there and then immediately it's the highway and highway ramps. So somebody that's leaving this plaza could very easily go out the back of any of these stores, go over across this sort of small greenway ditch, and then out onto potentially a car or just onto the highway and like be out of sight within within minutes.

If the killer didn't leave on foot and had a vehicle or a getaway driver waiting in the shopping center, his pathways for escape were limited. There's only two exits and they're both on 191st Street. Yeah. There's no other way to go. If he'd turned right out of the plaza's back access point and gone west onto one hundred ninety-first Street, he would have been driving mostly city and residential roads. However, if he'd turned left onto one hundred ninety-first and gone east,

He would have risked sitting at a traffic light at the intersection of 191st and Harlem Avenue. But that risk would have been worth it. Probably went out the east exit because almost immediately you make a left hand turn and you're an I eighty. And that's both a a a curse and a blessing with that shopping center. On one side it draws people to it because it's easel access. On the other side, whether it's a murder or shoplifting, somebody could get out of there pretty quick.

You had every pathway in America to get to where you was going. You could have went to Memphis, you could have went to Iowa, you could have went to the south suburbs, all them highways that lead you right up out of there. I've created an aerial map with notes on it of Brookside Marketplace and the surrounding streets, as they appeared in 2008, which will help you visualize exactly what I'm talking about.

It's on the blog post for this episode or available right now if you're listening in the Crime Junkie fan club app. How exactly the offender got away from the crime scene so quickly and which road he traveled on are two big question marks in this case.

But regardless of how he managed to pull off his getaway, the bigger question that still plagues a lot of people, including me. Is if he was at all worried about acting fast and not being seen, why did he stay in the Lane Bryant store for as long as he did? That's the part that's weird, is why you took out forty minutes of your time to sit here with six women and then you try to murder'em all. What were you doing in there for forty minutes?

You could have ran away. You could have ran away and left them all to go, and then you would have been fine. But instead you took their lives. I've always thought it was weird. To me, I always felt like there was something more to the story. The press couldn't help but pick up on the offender's puzzling behaviors too. Shot five in the head, killing them, and left another for dead, and what authorities say was a botched robbery that has shocked this town.

A women's clothing store at 10 a.m. on a Saturday doesn't have a ton of cash for you to rob. They said the motive initially robbery, but I find it hard to believe that the the the total motive behind this crime would be robbery. Something else has to be involved. It was pretty obvious that it was more than just a stick up.

But what was going through his mind, whether it started out to be more than that, or it just you know, he started to get confident because, you know, he was in there, he felt powerful or whatever, I don't know. I don't know if we'll ever know. A week or so into the investigation, the police learned that the offender had spent at least some of those 40 minutes he was in the store sexually fondling one of the victims. Which was a detail that seemed really far out of left field for a robbery.

It surprised the FBI too because uh their people came out and, you know, had access to the information that we had and is like, this really doesn't fit anything. I don't know if he had mom issues or something like that, but that's why none of this made any sense. New game. Got to be one sick individual just to sit around conversating with somebody and then you go ahead and take them out.

I don't think someone that was just gonna rob a store is gonna line people up execution style and and that just seems excessive to me when he could have easily escaped. Maybe somebody said something or did something that made him trigger. In a formal press release back in 2008, authorities emphasized that fondling was the extent of the perpetrator's sex assault. It didn't go beyond that.

How they knew that, I have no idea. Presumably the survivor told them, and as far as which of the six women was fondled, that's also never been released. What I can tell you is after the autopsies were done, Connie Wolf's family revealed, without being specific about why, that she put up one hell of a fight against the perpetrator. Here's Aaron Wolfoke, Connie's brother.

They told us she fought back'cause she did have somebody's DNA up underneath her fingernail, so I believe that that's what their belief was that she fought back. It's my understanding that one of the women was actually able to scratch him. Connie Wolfolk had some blood under her fingernails. Hopefully they can analyze that DNA and make a match.

The Wolfolk family knew Connie's final act of defiance was important to the case, which is one of the reasons why they told reporters what they knew about her physical struggle with the offender. My guess is she was thinking about her two kids. You know, she fought back. I mean, if no other women up there fought back, I know my sister would fight back. No doubt.

Nine days after the murders, the Woolfolks filed an emergency petition in Cook County Chancery Court to make sure that all evidence, including physical evidence, was preserved and protected. If Connie's sons ever wanted to seek civil litigation against Lane Bryant's parent company, this was a necessary step. On february thirteenth, the family's petition was granted, which signaled to everyone that the Wolfolks, like Connie, were fighters.

Now, here's what's super interesting to me. For years, Tinley Park police have confirmed that they have DNA in this case. They've just never said where that DNA came from. Here's Michelle Tallos, Jennifer Bishop's sister. The police did were specifically saying we do have DNA. We know we have DNA. And I'm like, Well, how do you know? Well, we can't tell you.

It's logical to assume some of it likely came from Connie's fingernails, but it could have also come from somewhere else at the crime scene, or even from the bindings on the victims. We just don't know. This is one of those things authorities have been very cagey about. My sources told me that in addition to DNA, police also have fingerprints and hair from the crime scene.

but it showed up nowhere. Fingerprints showed up nowhere. They went through I know they went through armed forces to see if they had'em. I mean, this guy just didn't have a being. We can assume that the person who did this has not committed any other crimes in the years leading up to it or after, because I'm told they have his DNA. So he would have popped.

So the forensic evidence the police have hasn't been linked to a known offender, but that was information that took months and even years to learn.

In early 2008, investigators on the case had to work with what they had. And what they had were five victims and one very shaken-up survivor, whose lives had to be questioned, as well as the Could this perp have been connected with the store in the past? Was there any relationship between he and possibly some of the employees that work there now? Told them this boldly. That's coming up on the next episode of Counterclaw, episode four. Listen right now.

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