BREAKDOWN- SHAKEDOWN: A Ghost Story

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How do you, folks? Your host double J back here, coming at you live slash live in a deep rain delay from my studio slash RV dining room located directly inside America. Folks of interwebs, once again JJ Vance here, host of Operation GCD right there and perhaps more notably not the vice president. So thanks for joining me here tonight, folks.

Yeah, thanks for having me. It's good to be back.

Absolutely, yeah, thanks thanks for having me. Jj. I'm excited about this one.

For sure, me too. I really, you know, horror films are not my you know, not my favorite genre, but this one, given the esoteric understandings of a lot of the things, uh and uh, just a lot of the elements of the story I found very interesting. So and it wasn't I had never heard of this film. So and we actually had two other parties joining us tonight. We had Davy Wavey and Nick has to be a

Yeah, Yeah, there's an awful lot of stuff, especially in the in the novel, but some of it survives in the movie too, really really conscious references to the Ynker's cult, And it's sort of like it's a version of the story that never mentioned Son of Sam directly, but it references all the other players and locations except for Son of Sam itself. So it's it's it's odd the way he did it, but it was ingenious for the book. It's a it's a really interesting story structure.

Yeah, I agree for sure. I got some ideas on those similar things that I saw, perhaps that more annoyed thoughts I suppose of anything else, But before we get into that, to those discussions, and before we discuss our blog posts. Again, thank y'all both for joining me here, and if I can offer you both, you know, your time to plug anything you're working on or an introduction anything you're working on, please John start us off there.

Sure, yeah, I know you got.

You got some new blog stuff, but as far as and I'll have the links here in the show notes. But if, yeah, if you want to introduce some of your work, and and then Julie, of course we'll let you do that next. And uh, then we'll get in our discussion. Okay, well I'm not cutting out.

Well, I wrote a long essay or a short booklet I guess, or pamphlet depending on how you you know which classification you prefer, called before Son of Sam and in the Substack blog, I'm just elaborating on some of the points that I originally made in the booklet. And occasionally, you know, you run across new information that relates to

So yeah, that's awesome, And I'll make sure these links from the show notes for folks that jack out. We'll be diving into some of those blog posts here in a second, because that death Mask one, that's a I find out a very interesting and important case for folks to understand what's going on with all that. But before we get into that, Julia, thanks again man for joining me here tonight. What have you been working out of the Cosmic Peach podcast?

So, I'm actually working on something that I was talking to John about before we started recording or before we went live, which is program serial Killers. It's one of my favorite subjects to talk about. I actually I've discovered two new program serial Killers that were not mentioned in Program to Kill, but I've put together presentations on both of them and those episodes will be coming out in

It's funny you mentioned that with this film hitting on so many subjects of things we're already working on, because I you know, it's not necessarily relative to the conversation. So I'll bring it up here in a moment of

Hmm.

Now, these ones you were going over, they weren't by name Buffalo Jared Revisa, were they?

No? No, you probably won't even recognize him. If I told you the name, I bet you probably haven't even heard of him.

John Are you familiar with my former stalker and the guy who demanded to be my pr Rep Buffalo Jared Reviza, the parent mind controlled assassin. He went on a multi state stabbing spree.

I think we talked about the first.

I talked about him.

A few months back. Yeah.

Yeah, So I did a show there night about a cannibalistic homicidal kid ddling serial killer. It's like a boy, the serial killer named Nathaniel Barr Jonah Right, would you believe the same Bridgewater Statemental Hospital that let that that looney tune, you know, on the loosse to go murder

JJ. The only thing that's even adjacent to being in a military program, is being in a minial hospital. Yeah, I mean they'll get you either way.

Well, I'm glad you said that. So to this point of how these these homicidal mind controlled you know, you know, hypnosis controlled or whatever you want to call it, serial killers, serial killers, right, you know, the system time and time seems to just you know, inadvertently or accidentally let these

Fucker.

And you know what, you know what the district attorney did on that on that charge that he did when he kidnapped the kid less than month later, and he would he was a three hundred pounds dude, so he would disable the children by sitting on them, right, this is this is his m He did the same thing, kidnapping their kid, did the same thing, and the and the uh County prosecutor there said, you know what, I don't this guy's not a day. We're gonna give him probation. We're gonna give him probation.

So well, that's the same with Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy. They catch exactly exactly. And actually one of the serial killers that I'm covering in an upcoming episode kept getting let back out too. It was like orders from the district attorney's office letting this guy out. I mean, I can't give too much away obviously because you'll have to listen to the episode, but it is crazy. And I did see in the in the comment section they said,

And on these kind of same notes of the mind controlled serial killer, sasas and stuff, when we're talking all these satanic cults and matters relative to the Son of Same or the Process, right it is And one note before I plugged the Anatomy of a Satanic panic series starting tomorrow and Operation GCD Patreon, Nathaniel Barjona, the judge that let him out was the special prosecutor in the chap Aquidit case to let ted Kennedy walk, Make that makes sense. And the woman that died in there, Mary

There's no coincidences.

So that I'll be going over certain aspects of unpacking this is the quote unquote satanic panic and how ridiculous a lot of these concepts are, and how they revolve around a lot of around the psychological operations components, specifically in other matters around this guy. Colonel Michael Aquino, Now, Julie, are you famire? This is a relative to Dave mcgow and John some of his work he did besides the

He had uh interaction with David Oh.

Yeah, yeah, So another one of the books, John, John, you may not be familiar with this one, Julia, you may be familiar with it.

Pedocracy, pedioocracy, Yeah, the pedaphocracy.

There we go, Pedophocracy, the McGowan books. So Aquina read that, saw his name and other associated friends in there, and wrote him an email saying, you're a madman, you're making stuff up. You're you're creating satanic panic. Was a statement of Quino made the McGowan be email. Obviously McGowan wasn't buying it, no, and.

Also he probably read it and knew his goose was cooked because McGowan had all the facts there. He never published anything without having all the facts for sure.

And it's a it's a quite hilarious exchange. And I will be coming going over with some of that and my you know, outline and unpacking of this quote unquote satanic panic. That again, when a man like Michael Quino is accusing folks who were studying facts, and again McGowan you know, provides in the fact states the facts as you were pointing out, Julia, in the email exchanges they have, you know, and it's kind of laughable. His response is because mcgallan has a way of being kind of sarcastic

Mm hmm r I p Dave McGowan. I love that guy. And also, hello Maria, I saw her mentioning me in the comments.

Yeah, so that'll be a good one. Say on. On top of that, I have one more plug before we get we get started here, folks, and I do apologize for any long winded natures. I have a actually we have we have a different a cult esoteric review coming up next week, don't we, Julia, Yes, we do. So I married an axe murderer, right, Yeah, that's not it. I got it here somewhere stand by one.

Yeah, so I married an axe murderers. Next week, yep.

This time. Next Wednesday, we have a different cult esoteric view with the Cosmic Peach returning back along with myself, Jen the Ninja Cain, my Idaho for I Haven't Costello Cohort, and of course Hearty Love from Unfiltered Rise podcast. So that'll be a good one. And then the following week

That's a statement right there, JJ.

Absolutely so on that note, let's talk more serial killers? Did I cut out in my back?

No, you're good? You want John to go first?

Well, I was gonna say, let's, uh, let's me bring up the film first. Yeah, well we'll actually know what Let's let's jump into some of John's work if you don't mind on the Sun of Sam stuff. So I'm sure Julia you'll be knowledgeable in some of these topics. He's discussing here in his blog posts. Yeah, so John,

Yeah, very recent uh story from Westchester County about uh new or recent animal mutilations. Oh interesting that the one of the New York City council women even acknowledges that, you know, it's it's cults that are doing this, so that I don't think this kind of activity ever stopped. I think, I mean, it was obviously was going on well before the Son of sam Era, but it continued, you know, long after Berkowitz was arrested, and you know the case was allegedly over.

So John, color me shock that Westchester County remains adent of inequity today as god back in nineteen seventy seven. But no, it says right here though, right like you said, that these are fringe groups mutilating and killing animals, says New York City councilwoman Joe Anne. And that's a real name, Ariola, Ariola.

So John, is it your opinion that this is accurate or are they giving us more smoking mirrors? Like are they trying to distract us, like, oh, it's you look at this, look at this like you what are your thoughts on that?

I think this one is because when I started to get into like full time research, I had read another story I think was actually in USA today, where similar things were happening to this, like four or five years ago. So it appears to be ongoing up there now you know what it's attached to. Who's in charge of the activity these days? I couldn't say, but and I've spoken to people from the area, and everybody seems to sort of be aware on some level that this kind of

Okay, I gotcha, And it's kind of never stopped if you look at I mean, just from my just from my take on all these matters is. Looking at some of the newspaper accounts, there's records of mutilated animals throughout Westchester, Puttnam, even Fairfield County, Connecticut, so throughout the eighties even yeah, yeah, into the nineties. So it didn't seem like it ever

Yeah, different public parks and things like that, But it's it's it's always in areas where they seem to leave some traces of evidence deliberately so that people will see it and talk about it. And I think that's an ongoing preoccupation of these groups.

Got that. So on that note, What do you think they're doing that for? Is it a psychological terror campaign to scare America? When they're leaving things behind, they could just as easily clean it up as you just pointed out, And I do agree.

I think it's like Peter Strub said in the novel ghost Story, they like to flaunt themselves. They like to leave breadcrumbs. It's it's a perverse thing that I think. It's like people who are flashers or something like it. People just they want people to see it. You know, whatever it is they're doing, I have to have an audience of some type for it.

So it's kind of that that same kind of ego driven kind of thing, right, they're trying other people look at him naked. My math teacher did that in high school. He forced people to do that. It was after high school, but sadly he's my favorite, one of my favorite teachers in high school. But he was driving around after a couple years later, just getting women to pull over on the local highway or whatever and then running out there with an overcoat on, saying, you know, look at this,

It is the kind of thing that it has to be like a deep seated compulsion for people to do it at all, because if they sat and thought about it rationally, that they wouldn't be out there doing it.

But yeah, speaking of this is a nineteen eighty one movie, and I was actually surprised how much full frontal there's a lot in this. Yeah, it's uh, it really was it.

Yeah, I forgot this as an adult because I remember, you know a number My son's eighteen now, but you know, almost almost eighteen. But when he was about seven or so, I was, you know, introducing him some films from my child, and I totally forgot how much full front was in the film Howard the Duck, And then I realized, I'm like, it's PG right, But I realized they didn't invent PG thirteen for a couple more years because there's a lot of full frontal on it. There's duck on there's women

Right best reality at its finest.

But yeah, they got a lot of They got away with a lot of stuff in the early eighties. I feel like in some of these films, this one had some you know, more nudity than I thought was coming in it.

But it is a horrible Yeah, me too, so right, Yeah, you always know somebody's gonna die if their penis or tits are out.

That's I was offended by the cock shot early on in the film. I was offended by that there's no need to show the man's penis falling out of the building.

That wasn't that. It was like a green screen thing and you could see the outline as he fell.

You know.

The whole scene is just really odd looking.

Yeah, it's definitely kind of low budge, I would say, but it's got a lot of aspects of like a classic eighties horror movie.

Which and it's funny you say that it comes off with a budget, doesn't it.

It does come off of a budge, it really does. That surprises me because, like I don't want to get ahead of ourselves here, but like the scenes where it shows the uh, the woman as a skeleton and you know, she's all it looks like something that you could get at Spirit Halloween.

You know.

It just kind of.

It looked worse than that that Minnesota my control assassin over the weekend, right than his master.

Well, yeah, but I will I don't want to get again, I don't want to get too far ahead into the movie or anything, but I will say I did enjoy it because I feel like it's a story. I think it's the predecessor actually to many horror movies that have the same outline. I don't know if it will be integral to anything John's gonna point out, but the idea of the vengeful spirit coming back and attacking the living and like taking them out one by one, it's repeated

It's God, I don't think I've ever seen it.

Well, it's the same concept. I would say, like movies like Grudge, you know, where it's like the bad guys killed somebody and their ghost comes back and kills them off one by one kind of thing, which is what.

We have here in Ghost Story.

Huh right, Yeah, I do feel like it's an idea that's been kind of like, maybe they ripped it off of this movie because it's not as well known as some of the more popular ones, but sure it's older than them, so I'm thinking maybe they ripped it off of this movie.

Because you bring up some good points and I don't want to cut you off there. But before we go any further, this is gonna be the number one Halloween costume of twenty twenty five, I imagine. But this was the the Vance Botler guy, right. He seemed like, speaking of horror stories, should just watch this guy's story of the weekend. That's a horror story right there, the sigh of they try to pass off on folks.

I didn't get to dive too far into it, but I'm sure you've got a lot of thoughts on it.

It's ridiculous, Yeah, I do you talk about some of their time. I just want to make the joke there because it's a fancy boatler. I think that name is ridiculous, and I think that mask is ridiculous, just as ridiculous as the horror mask you're talking about from Ghost Story, you know what I mean. So you know, as far as a low budget where the money went, I imagined it was all cocin hookers. But that's my opinion.

Well, you know, didn't Poltergeist come out in the eighties or am I wrong?

Yeah?

Think think of all the freaking special effects they put into Poltergeist. You know, it just didn't seem like it was upper echelon type of.

Make up.

What's what I'm saying, you know, you got to you gotta look at the Fred Astare situation, and you know he's got a large large amount of money's probably deadic his you know, line his budget line item of cocon hoookers just for himself, right and I and I'm and on that note, before we go any further here on John's blogs, we will go over these characters, the folk, the actors in the film, because there's some interest in folks there. But yeah, Johnny, you were also recovering the

Yeah, I was. I was really interested in that story that I think we've talked a little bit about. Jesse Turner and other Yea or Mickey Rose, the name that Morey used to refer to. I don't know where the name came from. I don't know if that's the name that Turner used for himself, but he you know, he lived with the Process in New Orleans, and he recalled an incident where a fellow Process member was hung up it sounds like on a wall or something, but but

Book that yeah, I'm not hip. I'm not hip to this at all.

But I'm not hip to this either.

I'm very what years we talking here, this crucifixion situation.

This was in the early seventies when when Turner lived with the Process in the French Quarter, they had a house there, and he said that he witnessed this murder and then the Adam and Karen, the mcnutts took the body away in a car. He never saw Karen again, but then he Jesse Turner evidently travels west with Adam after this is all over with and they go to try to set up headquarters for the Process in other areas.

In the United States.

Yeah. Yeah, so it's in the files that we have. He doesn't really elaborate on the incident very much, but it is this is publicly available information now and I've searched and searched in Vain for any trace of Adam and Karen McNutt, So I'm guessing that those probably weren't their real names. But just the fact that the incident, you know, the way the incident is described is it seems pretty significant to me because I would guess that the process didn't do this on only one occasion. I

So what you know, and I'll kind of put a pin in that. But I am interested in your analysis because I didn't read the book, but I'm interested in your analysis and what was included in what was not included there. But it's interesting about the mcnuts I often look into that myself. Is after reading your article, it's the first I heard of it.

Yeah, it's really It's one of those things that when when we got the files that it jumped out at me. But a lot all of the Mickey Rose slash Jesse Turner files are really interesting because he knew firsthand about this process stuff, and then later in New York he became friends with Michael Carr. But yeah, I would recommend everybody go and read the files at the people versus David Berklewitz dot com.

And I'll get a link in their description for that too. So it's interesting you said that he knew about details of the cult. And again, that's what's most telling to me about tonight's movie review is Peter Strob when he wrote that book clearly new Detai tales of this could activity. I mean wrote that nineteen seventy eight, right, because which was arrested in August tenth or seventy seven, and Stroub publishes this in January first of seventy nine, so you know, less than eighteen months.

That's right. And I think that's what's so important about the novel, And wasn't a lot of other Straub's work too, because there are references to this stuff sprinkled throughout virtually every book he ever wrote, you know, right up to the end. But he what's so important about it is it's an entirely separate confirmation that this cult activity actually happened. It's a totally separate confirmation of the existence of the Anker's Cult, because as far as we know, Stroud never

Do you think he was involved in Nicole himself?

I want you know where. I think that there's at least one clue to where he might have found out about this. He dedicates the novel to a couple of different people. What are their names here? Valley shioh s h a Io and Gregorio Cahoone those were they? They weren't married at the time, but they married later. They're

He dedicated this book to the Tavistock to.

Two Tavistock alumni, yeah, Gregoria Cahoon and Valley Shio. And he named his daughter Emma. One of her middle names is Valley, So he apparently these folks were good enough friends with with him and his family that that he named his daughter after Valley Shio. So it gives you something to think about.

Yeah, you've located the epicenter of activity between Peters Strobe and the processed church cold activity via the town.

No wonder if his books are full of shit?

What? Well? I hated to find it out because I love his books. I mean, he there's no writer I love more than I mean. He was a brilliant storyteller, just an amazing writer. So I almost found it upsetting when I always knew there was something about ghost story because all these links just kind of pop up at you. But but to the extent that it is, especially in that book, it really does, once you sit down to think about it, it really is. It's disturbing.

Well, there's no music I love more than the Laurel Canyon scene.

It's the same way with that. It's just like so much of what you listen to and read you look at it and say, oh my god, all this stuff is connected to this, these horrible programs. But but yeah, the links, unfortunately, there.

Are spot on. I got a couple. I got a couple of things on Gradually.

I said, who doesn't love the Beatles? Their Tavistock.

I wasn't gonna say the Beatles, but you were close because I was gonna say Rolling Stones. I got a couple of details on Deckford Tonight's tale that include these some of these bands like like the Stones, right, the Process and Stones, or the Processing and Beatles for that matter, or the British Invasion. What what really was that British invasion? Right?

Right? Well? Yeah, yeah, particularly with the Beatles because that that was the one that that was their flagship group.

Yeah, so I agree because you got Jane Asher, who's Paul McCartney's girlfriend and her brother is confirmed member and owner of the in a good coffee shop there in the Mayfair district of London where the Beatles are convening, and John mutioco And it's funny because Peter Asher goes on to be a major Hollywood music producer involved in the Diddy scandal, just saying, and their cousin, their first cousin is I believe she's still alive there at the

So do you feel like they put aspects of like the important aspects from the book into the movie because there I did have a few questions about one or two things I picked up on from the movie. But do you feel like they left some of it out?

I think Madgie's interrojectal quick, Julie cau we put a pen in that real quick. That's one we'll get. We'll do the story here one second. I's want to close out these one more blog.

Entry with John if you don't know, okay, sure, sure.

So relative to this entry, John and I think that I think I found most intriguing, is my opinion. The first investigator into the process was Jim Garrison, the New Orleans District Attorney, based on his own you know, work and whatnot. When you're saying this, that stuff with the mcnut situation was popping off from the early seventies. He was running office in seventy three there in New Orleans.

Absolutely, there was a lot happening down there, and things were happening in Yonkers at the same time. A lot of children were disappearing.

So yeah, very interesting. So the quick quick highlight of we can on these before we do the film review, John, the true scope of this understand, What what do you mean by the true scope?

Yeah, well that's that's Walter Brown's mugshot or Ace Brown, the notorious Yonkers and he A lot of what we know about these other aspects of the case comes from Walter and he he knew all these other people, He knew Sue Conway and all these important uh uh you know, major figures in the Yonkers cult.

And if I may, he also knew a lot of other folks, like he connects to the Dean Coral situation. But I'm not mistaken, right right, Julia, do you familiar with that? I'm not. Uh what's Coral? H Yeah? But what's the guy in between those two?

Philip Pasky?

Yeah, Norton maybe what's his name?

Oh, you're talking about the guy with the peto island Norman Norman?

Well yeah, so well, Norman's associates with I think Gaysey and Coral, if I'm.

Not mistaken, and also John Norman.

Yeah, look at in a minute, and I don't want to get too diverted, but this dude is connected to a lot of stuff, is he not? He was connected to a different pedo network.

Right, Yeah, yep. It was uh a network coming out of Dallas that they were all connected to.

That moved to Chicago, right, because Norman moved to Dallas then goes He's like the next day he's got a whole new ten thousand note cards full of customers and clients in this Chicago.

That is correct, Yep, that is correct.

So I apologize there the distracted there, John, if you if you may continue on about your uh, you're a blog post. You're aboudyes, Brown, because he is a very important character.

Is he not? Yeah, he was. He It was when Maury typed up what he called his flipper list when Yonkers had sort of uneasily reopened the case in the mid nineties. The people that Maury felt they needed to flip to get the case to a grand jury were well, Ace Brown was number one, Sue Conway was number two. She's my sort of pet suspect. I'm fascinated by her.

And well, so this was you're saying, this was a you know, like a pre existing operation that the Process kind of co opted then.

Right, right, Yeah, the Yonker's cult had been there for many years and they apparently, well, the Process started to call the shots in the late sixties or early seventies. And so by the early seventies when all these kids are starting to disappear, primarily from the Graham School and orphanage in Hastings, which is a a neighboring town. Uh, it's it's the process. Who's controlling the action by that time.

Yeah, so they were if I if I'm here, you aprently they were after orphans.

Yeah, yeah, they've from what John Carr told Paul Raine Eerie, they took a lot of children from the Gram School because they were orphans and they John's rationale for the cult doing that was that the kids wouldn't be missed. Nobody really tried to keep track of them, even the school didn't try to find out what had happened to the kids.

Much like the Franklin scandal. Yeah, with the boys town.

It's like that. Yeah, just convenient disappearances of kids that nobody really cares about it is trying to take care of it. It's it's really it's sad behavior.

Right, Yeah, what's that? What's that?

Julia I said they love orphanages.

Yeah it's true.

Oh well yeah, it's lack of accountability, right, one's paying attention. So I like that you've quote, you've highlighted this. So like this Brown said in December of nineteen ninety six. It's a direct quotation from Maury's files. Ace Brown said, I was told kids were buried there, referring to Untramer Park and Yonkers. And he's not the only person to say that, is he.

That's right. Multiple witnesses or sources told police the same thing. Sue Conway said that too. She said she heard that kids were buried there. I would imagine she presided over at least some of those sacrifices and burials firsthand, because that's the kind of person she was.

But yeah, Conway, yeah, yeah, And.

Multiple sources told the police that same thing, that children had been sacrificed in rituals and then buried in the park. That's true.

Interesting, And Sue Conway met in early demise, right, well, no, she oh that's the one that that's when they died of cancer. Always I always play a guessing game with you, John, Who's who's a lie?

She was? Yeah, yeah, she Sue. She was apparently was very ill in the years leading up to her death. But she had she had lived really hard. You know, a lot of a lot of drugs, a lot of alcohol. But she two thousand or early two, I forget what I think it was January of two thousand and uh. Yeah. She was something else, she really is. She's kind of a movie under herself.

So let me ask you all this. This is John David David Norman, the the Deadler Fellow operation from Dallas to Chicago, who's a saysion with Phil Pasky, who worked for John Wayne Gacy and Ace Brown apparently ties into Norman from my understanding as well, and there and that they have links. And isn't it interesting that John Mnieri would know uh, would would be familiar with uh Jeffrey Dahmer, and Dahmer and Gasey both had uh you know uh uh recruited their victims from the same gay club. What

They're part of a network. I'm just telling John that before we got started today that all of these assholes are part of a network and there's multiple assailants they but all the crimes get blamed on one guy. He's like the scapegoat guy. But there are there are so many people who are getting away with it, and then their crimes just get attributed to Let's say one John Wayne Gase, you are one Dean Coral, one Jeffrey Dahmer.

You ain't kid, and Julia, you ain't kidding.

Yep, It's true, and there has to be a network. It just doesn't make sense any other way.

One hundred yeah, yeah, And you know.

I feel like a network that may be like covered up under the auspices of national security.

Absolutely absolutely, because then the the ben Rose case, the CIA pleaded national security they we don't have to testify before this committee, so that was the.

End of them, you know, And how is that any different than the current Epstein situation with matters of national security? Right right, right?

Oh my gosh. I can't even tell you how much I love being on a panel with people who know what the fact they're talking about.

Well, you're you know, you're always welcome here in operations GCD and John is as well. So I appreciate both your all time and and the folks of Innerwebs, and I got one more. We'll close out actually with the death Mask Murder if you don't mind, John will just jump into the ghost story right because you did this blog post, which is what motivated me to You brought it.

It's interesting because there are some things in there that that are important items from the book that did make it into the movie.

There you go, let's start there, because I know Julia had those same questions for you.

Yeah, yeah, What did survive were the strangeness of the villain or the villain s who is played by Alice Kreese. I think she's the single best part of the movie because all the strange stuff that happens in the book, the really creepy stuff Alice Kreese transmits through her performance. I don't know if she ever actually read the book, but she's she's the thing in the in the film that is most like the novel, So she's her performance is really interesting.

So that's interesting they would leave that out of the book. That's a great comment there. Appreciate that their costs. The fuzz One was another party who witnessed these activities, and that's right, another independent you know, recollection and accounts of these same uh, murderous and ritualistic activities of things being thanks, people being buried in around these parks.

Right right, that's right, And I the testimony is really overwhelmed. I mean, something happened in Undermark Park. People were killed there, People died in that park, and the only thing that that stopped the investigation was the fact that the police and Yonkers evidently felt that an investigation would lead right back to their doorstep, and they were worried about their own skins, so they shut down the investigation.

So it does remind me also of the Finders, because they were spotted numerous times in parks, taking kids, kids in vans, kids being transported god knows where.

But also well, Julia, those are matters of national security.

Right, Yeah, the Finders well too. John's point about Alice Kreeg is that how you say her last name.

I've heard it pronounce Creege, but then I've heard it Prereese various ways, so I'm never sure which one is. I just settled on one, but it may not be the correct one.

She's awesome in this movie. I would agree with you. She's the creepiest aspect of the entire movie. She's She's actually in several horror movies. I think that's just her genre. She's most recently in a couple of Star Trek movies, I think. But so, she was super hot in this movie, proverbial hot eighties chick in this movie. But there was like this weird I don't know if it was like this in the book, but she almost seemed like a witch or something throughout the Yeah, And.

That's what's so great about her performance, because it you get the now in the book, the character that she plays in the film, she's much more than just a person who has been reincarnated or whatever. She has a history, and she has it with these old men in the chatter society, and they never come right out and say that there's an additional history in the film, but just the subtlety of her performance gives you the impression that there's more history there. Like that scene where she's holding

Yeah, gives you the creeps. And he said, like, you know, just touch her, even her skin feels cold. You know, there's just like this weird witch witchy thing yes about her.

Absolutely, And so was.

That not in the go ahead? Was that was that great? Go ahead?

Oh? I was just gonna say that is she fortunately or unfortunately that character had a real life counterpart, And that.

Was That's what I was gonna ask you.

That's what's so spooky. And you find that there's a photo comparison of Sue from its two photos a decade apart. But you see in the latter photo of Sue with the long brown hair, I think you see a lot of Eva Galley, Alma Mobile and a mosstin in that photo of her and In fact, even in the book, physically that character, the description of her is obviously modeled on Sue Conway. I think Stroud must have met her at some point, but I can't confirm that. But he

Do you think the real right she?

Yeah, the picture of her is there.

I was just gonna say, do you think the real person to Conway? You think she's a witch? You think she's sent to some dark ship?

She was? Yeah, she was.

She was.

There was a source who when Maury did an Unsolved Mystery segment about the Son of Sam back in the late eighties, a source called the Unsolved Mysteries UH hotline thereafter and referred to her as he said, I knew people who knew her. She literally was the high priestess of the cult. That's what they called her. So she Yeah, she was. She was actually into all that stuff, and she was serious about it.

She I knew it, dude, I knew it. Just the way that they portrayed her in the movie. There was like some weird witchy thing about her.

Yeah, because there's like a mind control aspect too, right with the two right before, I don't want to go too far, and before we get to all the characters. There's a mind she's got some sort of spell over some some some hood rats, right, that's right, that's right, some hoodlums, you will.

And there she is that that second photo, I believe you a lot of what's strange about that character in the book, in the film, you see in Sue's photo. There she she she really was something else. She was. She made an impression on a lot of people.

I agree, the resemblance is uncanny from the film.

Yeah, well, she I think I think one of the things they did look for in the film when they were auditioning people for the role of Eva of Almah was somebody with that long, straight hair. Somehow that is into to the whole character. Uh. If you had had somebody with shorter hair or something, it wouldn't have worked for whatever reason. It's that kind of hair just goes with all the other aspects of the character for for whatever reason.

I also film she has the eyes, like look at the eyes.

Yeah, well, I was gonna say it's and it's the same color eyes. I mean, they're the same kind of they have the same shape if you will.

Yeah, right, Yeah, there's something about the eyes too. It's like they picked her because she could. She can almost put you in a trance just looking at her, you know.

What I mean.

I think she did, man, I think she did. Yeah, that's intriguing. So let's do a quick since we're going over kind of the characters, let's go back and revisit the storyline we're dealing with here. Would you like to to explain to the synopsis? And and uh, you know, however you see it, they're they're gentleman. You like me to read it from the Wikipedia, the source of all information on the interwebs.

Sure, I can, I can snap size it just briefly. Sure. In the novel, it's a fictional, allegedly fictional town called Milburn. It's supposed to be in upstate New York. In the film, if if I remember correctly, they don't actually name the city, but it was filmed in Vermont somewhere.

What I believe is from from my understanding, what's like one of the locations, one of them.

And there was a real town square that they used. But a lot of the backgrounds you see are just like really elaborate matte paintings, which is another thing that I really like about the movie, really really beautiful backgrounds. I forget who the painter was, and I'm sorry about that because he deserves a lot of credit. But uh, the the town is it's supposed to be like a little sleepy small town, you know. And there there's a group of older men, affluent men. A couple of attorneys.

Yeah, and it's like it's got an interesting dynamico. That's a good explanation, I sir, I appreciate it.

That's sure.

That One of the things I found interesting was this this towing between reality. What is reality and what is not reality? Like what's hallucination? Right, and what's causing these dusts and what's not called Like is it an external force or is an internal force? In their nightmares of their heart attacks?

Right right? Right?

Tows that line pretty well.

It does, it does, because that that's uh, I believe in In the book and the film, somebody sees the first casualty jumping off the bridge, so uh, and then another one later dies of a heart attack. So there are things that could be chalked up to just mental distress or physical illness, and nobody really suspects what's actually happening.

Yeah, so the film starts off. That's a good, good point there, And the film starts off with the first death we get there is the son of one of these characters, right, that's right, that's right, and we're forced to see his dick because he's falling out a building. Terrible.

Yeah, yeah, and that's an odd.

I wasn't expecting the full dick shot. I was kind of again angry that I was subjected to this, especially with that woman.

You know, yeah, that that is probably the weirdest shot in the whole movie, just because you're not expecting it.

There's no reason, there's no point in it right in there, but yeah, yeah, it's pointless. And then they show the body flop. I'm like, well, did we have to do the flop too? Like the bounce?

Right?

Yeah?

Yeah, I guess it was one of those moments that they just wanted it to be a you know, a deliberate shock to the audience.

You know, well that there you go and say, and it does too. It grasped your attention because of that that shock factor. For sure. It got me good and I'm like, wh mother fuckers, did you guys just show me a dick and a dude bouncing off the pavement? What's wrong with you? That was my immediate reaction. I was like, how processing of you folks to do that? Right?

Yeah? Well that that definitely is the point in the movie where you know that really terrible things are going to happen throughout the rest of it. So yeah, it does have that.

It does set the stage properly correct. Yeah, yeah, so I'm now that'll be related the groundwork there on the plot line. I just want to I just want to ask you this one question before we go any further in the characters and whatnot and how this thing's unfold. There was a nineteen seventy four film also name Ghost Story. Mm hmm, Storry Maryanne Faithful.

That's interesting. I'm not familiar with it.

But is it the same story?

No, it's not the same story, but it's interesting. There's some interesting aspects to it, not the least of which Marianne Faithful.

She's process Yeah, she.

And Mick Jagger both and all the growing stones. In fact, John and I discussed an interesting murder surrounding these these folks in Westchester County, you know that den of iniquity north of New York City. Last time we discussed this because we discussed the the and John will have more details for a Julia. Is that but it's the Keith Richards domestic wife or girlfriend related murder, right John.

That's right? Yeah, Anita Pallenberg. Yeah, but all those folks they did the process that they were just like the father Church Scientology. They courted celebrities and uh uh you know the process. They went after the younger, hipper versions of celebrities that, you know, just just like the Scientology did you know, more established, you know, like yeah, room

Mmmm.

Yeah.

And then Keith Richards's wife there murdered a fifteen I'm sorry, a gun went off when she was in bed naked with a fifteen year old, Is that right?

That is correct? Yeah, he was in her bed and his name was Scott Cantrell and he she she got off for that whole thing very very easily. And I know that that the boys family were very upset about that. But it was a very strange incident for sure.

Dude, a gun went off accidentally. Is that the story?

Yeah? Well, she claims that he was he was playing Russian Roulette, that he was upset and suicidal, and that he, you know, just the gun went off and he shot himself. But it doesn't appear that the circumstances were ever examined too closely in court to me anyway.

Sure. Wow, and this was nineteen eighty, seventy nine or eighty or something like that. Yeah, that's right, yep. So after after Burka, which so this is again this falls into the post son of Sam called activity in around that din An equity, Westchester County.

That's right.

Yeah, Sue. Do you think this secret society as they call it quote unquote in the book Slash movie is based on anything real because they call themselves the Chowder Society like.

They just about that. Because there were there was a group of allegedly in the cult during the fifties and sixties. There were a lot of figures of that type involved in the cult. There were doctors and attorneys and judges, and so it could refer loosely to some of those individuals. We know the names of some of them. And when he was writing the Chowter Society yet it could have referred to some of those established community members. I think that's very likely.

Yeah, you'll recognize one of those names, Julia Carlton gadget say you know that one?

Now, who's this asshole?

Oh? John, please let her know who Anthony Fauci's Ssydekick carl T. Gadgertik was relative to the Ankers Cold Yeah.

He well, he he won a Nobel Prize for medicine, uh in nineteen seventy six, something like that. And he was born in Yonkers, but spent a lot of time outside there researching strange diseases in or was he on some of the Micronesian islands or someplace?

Yeah, he brought yeah, Micronesia. He brought about fifty young boys back with him somewhere.

Yeah, he was very interested in boys. And when when the son of Sam case was reopened by Yonkers police department, Gadgetsick became he was a person of interest and then some and he eventually was convicted of child molestations, served a boy a year in prison, then got out, retreated to Europe and died over there. He he was a strange character in a horing to multiple sources, he was present for very specific cultic activities, including allegedly the the sacrifice of a child.

So yeah, god, yeah, why does he look like the composite sketch of the Zodiac Killer.

He was a creepy guy. And there's there's a film where they an interview film where they talked to him and he's he's very He just totally denied reality it, could not admit that he had done anything wrong. But he David Berkowitz was aware of doctor Gadgetsik because he was a He was a major figure in youngers there.

And he Yeah.

From nineteen seventy to nineteen ninety six, Carlton Gadgasik was the chief of the Laboratory of Central Nervous System Studies that n I n DS at the National Institutes of Health, working directly for none other than Tony Fauci.

Oh my god, and they were probably boyfriends him And you can do it, that little fairy fuck. I hate Fauci, I swear.

So you may know Carlton gad your sex nephew. He brought us the first season of Stranger Things.

Ah, stop it and make up. Oh, come on, you guys. This guy's neph what'd you say is nephew?

I believe if I'm not mistaken, this is his brother's son.

Yes, Oh my god, come on.

He was the chief chief writer and showrunner for season one of Stranger Things.

Just saying, oh my god, probably just.

A crazier thing. Yeah, totally a coincidence, Stranger Things. Indeed, the I'm sure is behind all of that. Oh, so to this stuff?

Fucking god, do that?

Just blow up your brain hole there, Julia.

Both of you guys are blowing up my brain hole in here. I thought I knew something.

That's well, you do know stuff. That's what I like to do here. We like to exchange ideas. You know, we all we all have a different piece of the puzzle. I feel like, not to make it sound creepy or nothing, but it is a It is a puzzle of sorts, right it is. I heard it in a song one time. I think it was the beginning of the show The World's a Puzzle. So I don't know why they called this ghost story, but they Yeah, I mean, it doesn't have the same you know, plot lines or nothing. But

Well, he ghost story in every book thereafter pretty much contains some reference to the Yonker's cult and its membership, all the way down to well they have mystery listed there in nineteen ninety. By that time, he was writing sort of like he had He wasn't writing harder novels any longer, but he was writing really really dark murder mysteries. And there's a minor character in mystery a police officer,

Yeah, Well he's so Tavis.

It does that way. It's a hard conclusion to escape, but it yeah.

Oh my god, that's too specific. I'm sorry, is its way too it's too specific?

Well, like I said, it's almost like finding a fingerprint. It's that definite, you know, it's hard to discount that.

But yeah, John, what you need to start a podcast?

Well, John, John's a wealth of information, isn't he.

Julia, Yes, oh my god.

Well strangely enough, and I'm glad we all find this so interesting, But I don't find a lot of interest in it within the community. It's just not one of those things that people seem to have caught onto.

Really, I feel like this is one of the more interesting things.

If I made that, if I met you. Guys are hitting on exactly why I'm doing these as occult esotic film reviews, because I think the one thing that the folks can understand is when they see a picture of these ideas and they can relate to a picture like it makes a lot more It makes a lot more sense to me when I see shit in a picture. Yes, absolutely, that's just me. Yeah, that's not what I'm saying.

Julia, Are you special?

As the pop ups? And I color them myself. Okay.

I saw something on the Wikipedia page for the author though. I was going to ask John if he thought it was significant. Hang on, pull it back up.

Please do stand by, police by. I don't even know what I was doing there. I was just cruising around my tabs. To be quite honest with.

You, Well, it looks like the first book. This isn't what I was going to ask.

But first, right.

Is my namesake Julia nineteen seventy five. But that's besides the point. It looks like he did some work for or with HP Lovecraft.

And Stephen King.

Stephen King.

Yeah, he and Stephen King wrote two novels together, The Talisman and Black House. Black House. That's one of the rare moments in Straub's career that I just didn't It wasn't very good. But the Talisman is really good, the first book. I really enjoyed that one. I think he edited maybe a volume of HP Lovecraft stories for the Library of America, and unfortunately a lot of that stuff has gone out of print. But that was a really a good series of books.

Yeah, I wonder what's in the Talisman.

Well, there's a character. In fact, the main villain in that book is named Morgan Slote, and the surname Slope comes from a roommate of John Carrs when he was in the Air Force. Uh So, yeah, there's just one clue after another in his books, and it's well, yeah.

Isn't there a Laurel Kenyon asshole last name Slopeman changed it to do you know how I'm talking about j J.

Are you referring to Jim Morrison's kindergarten classmate, Gail Slopeman, who would later marry Frank Zappa.

Yes, yes, and changed her last name. That's right, that's right, Gail Zappa formerly known Slopeman.

Yes, ma'am. She was.

She was military, right her family.

Sure for sure, that's why she was in kindergarten with Morrison.

Yeah. No, that that obviously two connections in my mind, because I think that they sneak little stuff like that, and Gail Slopeman somebody wrote it in the comments.

Yep, there you go, Thank you folks of the interwebs. So these are interesting aspects. So with regards to spy Challa, like, I mean, you got to be in the know on that one, right, you know, yeah, because that that my understanding is like like you were pointing out, is like that dude was like you know, you know, no one really knew that name, like that was one of the ones that minderstanding Mary kept close to the best, even right he did.

Yeah, I think Maury was right up to the end. He was trying to learn more about all these individuals because he knew they all fit into the larger picture. But Yell was he's really You read about his history and some of this stuff is just almost unimaginably awful. He's another one of these people. The reason all these people were there is that they hurt children. That that was the common thread, you know, because that that's ultimately what this cult was about. The Son of Sam attacks themselves.

Wait till you read Program to Kill. You're gonna you're gonna go so far down the rabbit hole you're gonna be begging me and JJ to pull you back out. I mean, it's it's it's absolutely mind boggling. But I agree with you. I think children are a currency in these cults. They're traded and they are used for blackmail, among other things, sacrificial.

Well, there you go. You know, you hit it right there, the way I look at it, the way I look at the epicenter my apologize and mean to cut you off.

Julie, No, yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

I look at the epicenter of the activity of these spooky blackmail operations, and you know, I've read enough cruelly and I'll be going that on unpacking my Satanic Panic series. Literally again, I'm not trying to inform my own opinions, thoughts, or ideas against their judgmental on all these people. I'm using their words to describe these things. And there's a lot of kid diddling stuff that comes out of what

Well, you should talk to William Ramsey about the West Memphis three too, because that came out of the Satanic Panic and that was all weird Crowley worshiping stuff.

So I mean, and I'll be using that as an example of my series, but I'm actually gonna be going over the cases and comp comparing the Satanic Panic around these major events, but using cases emphasized this is a greater deal, just like John's doing here in the son A Sam series. There's a greater number of cases that are not being depicted in the conversation because this is a larger pattern of behavior the cult activity.

M hmm, well, I mean even in this movie. I think they reference in the movie, uh something about occultism several times or like cult activity several times they do.

And on that note is is this is this an accurate statement that we hear from the chat? I appreciate this statement. There, Wallhead Rex so car was O T O O t O Roade Strub's attorney, and Strub edited out the OTO reference.

Strup did, in fact edit out a reference to the OTO in the original hardcover version. That's right, No, she.

That that's a fucking barn burner, right there, folks.

Yeah, he changes the name of the group to the XXX, which has a convoluted Latin it means something in Latin. But he changed the name in the paperback to the XXX. But he also rolls into that multiple references to the Processed Church. In fact, that the villainous who is she keeps coming back with the initials a M. Those are just the initials of Marianna Grimston reversed. So there's a lot of cult references in their conscious references. But yes, that's true.

Blown up a brainhole, John, You're blowing up a brain.

Hole reference in in the in the original edition of the book.

Yeah, and to the person who left that comment, uh, Wayheadrex, is that how wyhead Rex? Who the fuck are you? Why do you know so much? That was awesome. I mean John obviously was gonna say, but still, that was awesome.

I didn't. Yeah, that's great stuff. I didn't know that at all. That's that's as I mean, it's an interesting aspect to understand when you you see the folks that get but hurt about their names appearing stuff. I had referenced earlier that creepy fellow Michae Lookino email and Dave McGowan saying how dare you and McGowan basically just laughing them off with.

Facts, Yeah, with facts, literal facts like hello.

Yeah, I'm really glad that people are coming about the things because this is a discussion that people have so seldom. I mean, it's this stuff is almost never talked about, especially in relation to the fictional references to real life people and events. I just, well, like I said earlier, it's it's so obviously a separate confirmation that the Yonkers case actually did happen, that this cult existed, but people

Well, I found John, I'll give you my and I don't want a tangent or anything. But I just talked about this on a podcast recently, and you might agree or disagree, but I find it interesting the willingness of people to listen to podcasts but not to read anything.

Yeah, right, it's sad.

It is sad, But I think that's why it's so cool, like when we can talk about it in podcast form, Because obviously I love to read. I don't have any problems sitting down and reading The Ultimate Evil or Program to Kill Strange Things from the Canyon. I have no

I like your approach though. That's a pretty solid approaching out there. What you're saying, you're reading books and then trying to you know, instead of realizing folks don't read books, and then you try to digest that into a format. Then I did digestible podcast podcast.

Yes, yeah, that's I mean, that's what I like to do on my show. That's why I think John would be successful at it, because it's obviously something that's very interesting, but people just don't want to read. Isn't that sad? People don't know one I want to take the time.

Well, on my substect that's what I try to give it to people, Like, like you're talking about indigestible form, you know, you give them just a few paragraphs and hopefully it's not so complicated that it overwhelms them, but it gives them enough to think about and maybe that'll part their interest and then they'll go read a couple

Events, real life shit.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a great blog piece, Specs. You definitely check this out. Isn't be in the show notes for folks to check out.

Joy doesn't Susan Conway remind you of Tuesday Weld a little bit?

She plays a very similar role in the in this scene that I think is Tuesday Well plays overall and especially in the Hollywood scene.

Yeah, and they're both like priestess level. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. You gotta look into Tuesday Well if you haven't, John, because she's another rabbit hole that just never ends. But it's like the ones, the ones in these these who are actually the upper echelon, They actually get kind of shielded or hidden or occulted from mainstream view, which I.

Come on, are you sing?

Very interesting? What are you talking about?

You mean to tell me people aren't how accountable for their activities? Is that around these these colts?

Right? Yeah?

What you mean is that what you want me to believe?

I do want you.

Now that is the pattern time and time again.

Right mm so this this uh in the in the movie actually too. I wanted to get your thoughts on this.

May I just make a point on your book booking on your statement there, Juliet, relative to national security on our left and relative to process church folks who walk on our right. Cocaine Bob here walked on trafficking charges in cocaine in nineteen eighty no time, and he walked on murder charges in nineteen eighty eight of the Roy Raidner her courtesy of Charles Manson's friend Ira Reyner, then

But you know how many people know that you that's true? Like and like whoever's listening to this podcast right now, Well we.

Gotta yeah say we got we got one hundred and seventy plus folks that are learning these things right now. So that's again, this is all right, definitely a barn burner. I appreciate. I just I got to bring in the cocaine Bob factor in my back. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean that.

He's an I never leave.

You cut out for like a second.

The uh so, Yeah, I mean I just think, you know, again, we're we're kind of drawing patterns of these activities and people. But you know, these people don't get held accountable, do they.

No, No, they really don't. There was a handful of people in the case of Son of Sam who were members or affiliates of the cult who died in odd ways, you know, in the few years after Burkewitz's arrest. But the people hire up the ladder. Yeah, there very rarely are any consequences for them, unfortunately for sure.

And I just want to highlight this before we move on. Peter Strobe, unless yell have anything else on Strobe, but he says he wrote ghost Story. The reason I chose to write scary books was because at the time there were only three horror novels and they'd been enormously successful, The Exorcist, Rosemary's Baby, and the other. And I just like to remind everyone Rosemary's Baby was a process outfit

Yeah, I would I wish I knew more about him personally, because it's it's just so obvious that he had a first hand source, you know. Yeah, but it's the kind of thing that he was never going to talk about openly. I mean, he he talks about certain influence, you know, literary influence and stuff on Ghost Story. He talks about you know, uh, Nathaniel Hawthorne and Henry James and all that. But but those are the obvious things. What's not so obvious? Hey?

There you go? What do we don't know that we don't know that? We do they know that we don't know?

Yeah, And I just I wish I wish it was a wider discussion. I'd like to bring more people into it, you know, because somebody's going to know something about this somewhere. We just have to bring him into the circle and and get everybody to talk about it.

Well.

To add on to your point really quick about this author and why I feel like it's significant is because someone that I comment on constantly that I actually have a poster right here, Stanley Kubrick. He put into his movies things that were not in the novels, right like the Shining Clockwork Orange Lolita, you know. And the guy who wrote a Clockwork Orange actually ripped off the idea from a conversation that Stanley Kubrick was having with someone, and then.

He ended up directing.

Yes. Yes, So Stanley Kubrick was at a party one night with a bunch of like weird German people like Warner von Braun and shit like that, and he was talking about the idea of a clockwork Orange. The guy who wrote the book was there, wrote the book and then had Stanley direct the film. But the reason I bring all this up.

Ark, No, it's Anthony Burgess. Like you, He's also got a weird a lot of weird stuff in.

His stories, right, Anthony Burgess. So why I bring that up is because Stanley Kubrick was supposed to direct the Exorcist, but he passed it up. He said he didn't want to do it, and so they got William Friedkin to do the Exorcist. But then because he passed up on the Exorcist, they asked him to do the Shining and he took it and flipped it and made it a cult and esoteric and it it is what we have today.

I would all books.

And making them, you know what I mean. It's like they're all kind of connected. They all know that they can slip stuff in there.

Yeah, for sure, I would argue it's them trying to basically a public initiation of some of the cold ideas. Because you mentioned freaking he ties into the gay club s and m scene with this tale relative to the Son of Sam story in the early eighties in New York City, that death mass story, the death mass story that John wrote about would be this environment here and Cruising. In fact, freakin knew the guy that was doing these.

Murders, but see how they slipped that.

Shit in Yeah, and freaking's it's I just friends with this guy who's a gay, gay S and M club serial killer. Don't worry about it, folks, don't worry about it and go cocaine Bible star his buddy Alvil stars the you know in the film about it, right, because these idiots are just telling that they're bragging about their Speaking of the Braggs we talked about earlier, John, they're just bragging about their ship in my opinion, but yeah, well I'm just the garbage candidates. Who am I to say?

Well, I'll tell you And I hope this is not going to sound like Bragdon because it really isn't. But it's just such an inescapable connection I have to mention it. In reference to Cruising, the Los Angeles punk rock band The Germs, they did a couple of songs for the sound Actually they did about half an album's worth of stuff for the soundtrack of that film, but only one of the songs wound up being used. Uh, there is cult history there.

Yeah.

In in in Darby Crash's background.

Thought came from that band.

Yeah, no ship, Yeah, George Ruthenberg, Yeah, I don't. A good friend of mine knew Derby fairlywell. She was involved in that scene, and in fact she was Nicholas Shrek's first wife.

That's right, you told me about that.

But we were good, good friends. And uh, I learned a lot reading about Darby because he I believe he was almost certainly programmed. Uh And that's probably a story for another time, but but.

He was a story from our time because I just put a pin in that there that' stuff. This is all very interesting, please continue.

Yeah, Actually there's a lot of strange history there. He very early on, when he was still in high school, he had people from scientology and est and all these organizations actively messing with the heads of the kids that attended that school. So yeah, that that's something we could talk about another for.

Sure, dude, that we exercise into my speaking of weird McGowan's weird scenes inside the Canyon. I took the framework of his story, the salient characteristics and points that he identified theirs. That was the framework of that operation in Laurel Canyon. I applied that same framework to Seattle runs counterculture and it's the exact same fucking thing. And Pat's mirror is part of that counterculture. That's interesting.

Yeah, the Nirvana you know weird.

Yeah, he came in there, Nirvana I love. Yeah, well yeah, yeah, that's yeah, there's a lot of a lot of a lot of weird. Tana have been getting on with those topics. But back to the ghost story here, the tonight's topic you can hand which I do appreciate your folks time at the interwebs in of course John and Julia and your conversation. I'm learning a lot here, as I always do with both of you all in conversations and podcasts,

Fellas right, I'll I'll do. I'll say that doctor Jeffrey is the disheveled guy in the Chef's Hat Douglas character.

Yeah, yeah, he's my favorite one out of the bunch. He's my favorite one out of the bunch.

Ricky is the teddy bear faced one. I think maybe Ricky is the chef's hat guy.

I think Freda Staire's Kerman. I could see him, you know, cutting a rug.

What's the last one's name?

Well, it started out as Gonzo. He went through a couple of morphs, you know what I mean in the GCD Muppet Factory, so it didn't come out as Gonzo, but he started as Gonzo.

No, but the guy, the last guy in the movie, the fat guy always.

Sits in the chair. Yeah, that's a good question. So we got fred Astaire, right, and start these four old muppets that you all see there. I'm depicted in the My Muppets take take the Ghost Story Invasion. There, we got the cast of Fred Astaire, Ricky Hawthorne. Right, we got Melvin Douglas. Y'all just mentioned doctor John Jeffery. He's trying to out out JJ mee, that son of a bitch Douglas Fairbanks Junior Edward Charles Wanderley, and John Houseman sears James Okay.

John Houseman is the teddy bear faced one, all right, fair enough?

I think that's yeah.

And then obviously Alice Krieg is Miss Piggy for sure.

So when, uh, was there anything about the director or executive producer? I mean it's all a little bit about the executive producer, but the director, he didn't really do much of note or of colts or anything that's seemingly of significance, to be quite honest with you.

Besides, yeah, I forget how he was assigned to this project. I know the screenwriter, uh, Lawrence and he had done the screenplay for Carrie, the film version of Carrie. Yeah, really really great job with that. Yeah. And you can tell that he read Ghost Story because quotes from the book pop up here and there, you know, throughout the film. So it's the book is so long and involved and has so many different characters and situations that you can see why they had to kind of fold some of

My only question with this guy, and you all may have the same kind of Julia maybe thinking the same thing as well, there with your processed church understandings. What was this dude doing in London in nineteen sixty four, Because I'd be curious to them be saying out in the Mayfair district that would that the plot was thick and if he's if he's linked with the process in the Mayfair district in sixty four, that's all I'm saying,

Yeah, well he's the right age range, so it could yeah.

Right, he'd been twenty four years old the time he'd been right in their wheelhouse of crew. I would imagine, yeah. Now, and I just say that because like he's doing stuff and broadcasting film Ember in BBC. Looks like in that timeframe, right see made for TV films over there and whatnot.

Yeah, it says something about Christopher Walking in the eighties he made.

Yeah, so this this was his first movie. Yeah, this was his first movie in America and then Ghost Story was number two. But yeah, dogs of.

JJ you cut out jj uh Oh he's froze, are you there? Yeah, you're back? You back?

Yeah. He also would do raw deal with that shitty the shitty Belushi in Schwarzenegger.

Yea, I remember that one.

Well, you know, Christopher Walking is a whole nother podcast topic, especially his weirdness with.

What's name Natalie Natalie would yeah, Natalie.

Oh yeah, for sure. This is this is a this is a weird movie. This is weird. I'm reading this synopsis. This is a fucking weird movie. Dude.

It looks like he has black face on.

Based on the Angola mercenary situation.

Like, why are they making this movie in the first place? What's the And then they say that they based it off of a phrase from William Shakespeare. I just feel like there's a lot more to this film too, Right.

William Shakespeare looks like an interesting one, and I would wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that, you know, a lot of those mercenaries that wound up in Angola, they were trained at Jonestown, the same grounds there.

Right, you know exactly what I'm talking about, stir This is the interesting details you're picking You're picking up what I'm what I'm talking about there, Johnny, You're a very smart man. You know exactly what I'm talking about. I've just been on that same note, on that same note that that creepy sygh op situation or whatever the hell it popped off in Minnesota over the weekend with those lawmakers up there getting marked in the middle of the night.

Yeah, Yeah, things are still happening. I think we live in much more interesting times than people might generally think. You know, all the crazy stuff that happened in the sixties and seventies, we still we get our own versions of that even today.

Oh, I tell you, I don't think that. I didn't realize John Irvan did this film. I love this film.

I don't know if I've seen this one.

I have not seen this one.

To give you an abridged version, US Army Airborne Ranger raised an Appalachia Truman Gates migrates Chicago to become a police officer. That's Patrick Swayze. Oh, hal breaks Lucy starts battling with the mob, which is Ben Stiller was like the son of the Mob and in the of the Uh. I don't know whatever mob was in Chicago at the time. I think they were taling about. Remember but Liam Neeson comes in there and he gets murked spoil alert, and

I like that.

I like that.

Well, you know, I love Bill Paxton, but I will just say a lot of excitement, a lot of excitement.

Yeah, Bill Paxman, you got Baldwin.

Which bald is that?

That's not no, it's the non bald When Baldwin, he'll recognize his face.

I was like, go ahead, I was just gonna say if he was part of the Baldwins. I just learned something very interesting about them today that their bloodline includes all kinds of weird upper echelon, including like several presidents, Hillary Clinton and like some weird inbred.

Like wait, wait, who was this? Who were we talking.

About the Baldwin family.

Oh, I'm not surprised by any of this. This makes sense to right, but.

I mean they were talking about it openly on this podcast thing and shit like bragging about it, like, oh yeah, we're related to you know, upper echelon and like these old in bread Fox that used to have klut palettes and stuff like that. And somebody wrote in the comment section Bill Paxton is dead. I know, and I'm really sad about that because I really loved Tim.

Well now that I'm now that we're considering John Urbans works and he's more of an esoteric understanding here. I also love Bill Paxton, by the way, he's great actor. I see Joey Rosalini here is the name listed as this character that kills Liambnest in that story. And that's interesting because you know, Johnny Rosselli was the famous mobster out of Chicago associated with the JFK Biz and a lot of the other characters were discussing here within these this processing kind of element, right.

Johnny Roselli was also tied up with Marilyn Monroe.

Well, that's what I'm saying. His sidekick was Frank Sinatra, and Frank Sinatra and the entire rat pack. In my opinion, we're involved with the process, not just Mia Farrow's wife, not just Sammy Davis Junior. Right, the stars of who starred in Bob Cocaine, Evans and Roman Planski's cinematic shit show to Satanism Rosemary's Baby. But there's more connections, and

No, I don't have anything to add.

How about the executive producer, Bert Weissberd.

Is he an asshole or not? Yeah?

Again, he didn't really like these guys, didn't really seem to do a lot of significant stuff after this film.

M Yeah, I just remember seeing his name in the credits of the movie. But I don't know anything about him.

There's not much. Yeah, I couldn't find much about him either, to be quite honest with you, looks like the film.

There was Sam Sheppard, which is interesting because he was he had a thing with Patty Smith for a little while.

So well as you say that he started and that's Sam Shepherd and he starts with with Sissy SpaceX. So what do you got on Sam Shepherd?

Yeah, he was just he he had a brief affair with with Patty Smith and they they wrote a play about it, Cowboy Mouth. But they're both actually performed in course that's named after Bob Dylan lyric but yeah, mainly just his his association with Patti Smith.

There, hear me if I'm wrong, One of these cult nicknames for Ronald Sisman was Sissy SpaceX.

Right, that's right, Yeah, that's right.

And Sissy SPACEK was a fore momb was she not? I believe she was, And I guess my my other quote, I let me let me rephrase that this would not be the only Ford model connected to the sun of same situation, right right right?

That?

Yeah, yeah, I believe that's where she starts off.

Though.

I was working for the Ford Modeling Agency, and if I can unfuck my ability to click links here and move my dubie out of the way, I'll let us know that for certain. But I'm pretty there were some there were some wasn't Wasn't there a Ford Modeling Agency connection? What am I thinking of, besides possibly her? What was going on there with that?

There?

I've heard something about that, but I'm I'm reaching back years to figure out what I heard about it, and I can't remember exactly what it was. But there was there was.

Let's let's put a penn put it for a future one because well, future one is in two seconds from now after I read this, because in nineteen sixty under the stage name Rainbow, she recorded a single John You Went Too Far This Time, the lyrics of which Chida John Lennon and for his Yoko Owner his new album for two versions. So that's interesting. Basic worked as a photographic model represented by four models. There you go, Oh, there it is and is an extra Andy Warhol's right,

Next, he knew Patty and he played with her on stage a couple of times.

Uh.

I'm not sure exactly how extensive Lou's involvement in this stuff was, but he must have known about it, because all these people were doing this stuff at that point. You know.

Yeah, they're they're, they're They practiced at the Andy Warhol studio that was there, much like the Birds did Polkas the studio, right, Julia the the the Velvet Underground did Andy Warhol studio. So we see the more comparisons.

Did you.

Watch men? In Black, the Third Men in Black movie with.

With Josh Brolin, with Josh Yeah.

Do you remember how they said Andy Warhol was a CIA agent and all the models were, Yeah, they were extraterrestrials, which I know, but I do think they were making a reference to Andy Warhol being c I A for sure.

I don't want to do Yeah, I don't want to derail this too much because you just brought in a connection with his stepmother back to all these these characters that brought barbart streisand however, and that was with her with Warren Batty, the Young Turk. So there's a lot of these connections with these with these people. Right. So well, we've I think we just put a pen at least in my brain hole for a future couple of conversations here.

But see, yeah, I've never heard he's he's I've never heard any particularly bad stories about it. The interesting thing about him for the role is that in the novel, Peter Straub says he describes Ricky Hawthorne as looking like Freda Staire, so presumably that's that's why he and Peter Straub himself said that that was one of his favorite things about the movie was that Freda Staire played the role.

Wow, Okay, you know the main star is of this whole story is actually really just the author, Like he made this what it is, you.

Know, Yeah, I think it's the story could have been told by somebody else, but but being told by him made it special.

I think it did.

Yeah, because it's it's a really really great book and it's uh, I can't think of a single more brilliant author of popular fiction than Peter Stroud. But it just man to know that he was aware of a lot of this stuff is just uh, well, yeah, came out for a couple of years. Yeah, it was hard to to see it in a different life that way.

But yeah, sure, Well I think one thing I thought was interesting with Hysteric, especially because I think it's good for all four of the main cast members. This is their last film, right, that's.

True, Well except for John Houseman. Yeah, he did a couple more. Okay, he was the growth angry guy.

Oh, okay, and bring that up for you. I don't know why. I don't what happened to him here hold on stand By Police. Yeah, he's he's a pretty notable voice and face right in Hollywood and Housman over the years he was.

Yeah, he did a lot of commercials and he didn't act until later in life. He was an acting coach for a long time. He worked at UH I think at Paramount. He was a good friend of Raven Chandler. But he didn't act until fairly late in life.

Well, that's interesting, Paramount. You say.

He died on Halloween.

That's yeah, Yeah, that's weird.

Let's see how I don't know enough about him to tell you how that went down, so essentially, well, I mean, sorry, eventually, we'll get down there.

I think he looked pretty bad the last time I saw him.

I can remember him, but yeah, oh yep, spinal cancer.

See. I didn't know he was married to Zita Johan, but she was. She had a really odd mystical quality about her. She was in the Mummy with Boris Karloff. I had no idea that John Housman was married her, but she was interesting. Interesting.

Yeah, he appears with some scientologists as his last film looks like, yeah, yeah, Priscilla Presley and Orenthal James Simpson scientologists.

God, he was the driver's ed instructor in that.

Yeah yeah, well, me and JJ just did an episode on OJ Oh.

Folks were loving that. Julia again, I have to thank you again for even suggesting that, because the folks have been enjoying that one. For sure.

That was a real born I enjoyed myself. Actually, that was a really fun episode. I was gonna say, you know, just I don't know if it's the right time to bring it up or not, but you know what I thought, So maybe you guys. Obviously John's going to disagree because he read the book and he already knew what was going to happen. But JJ, didn't you think that they

Yeah, I mean it is the eighties. It seemed like the rape the era of films.

So I agree with you, but like, you know what I'm saying, there there's another I mean, like you couldn't.

Make Porky's in this day and age, right, you know what I mean?

It was very rapey, right, right, Well, it just it looked like all all of them had a crush on the main character, right, and they all wanted her, but she was only interested in one of them. So that scene at the end where they're all trying to take turns dancing with her, I was like, Oh, I know what's gonna happen. They're gonna take turns rape in her, They're gonna accidentally kill her, and that's gonna be why her ghost is coming back to get revenges because they

Well, I don't know though, if I made just interject when they were dancing with her, I took that as them having sex with her. So you saw three of the four have sex with her in my opinion, because three of the four danced with her, right.

But it didn't show them having sex with her, right.

But I'm saying it was a metaphorical I think that to me, that was the metaphor that they were all hooking up with homegirl and they're passing around because they were all you know, it's like the song from the eighties with the Billy Idol dancing with myself. It's about masturbation, you know what I mean.

Well, yeah, but there is another horror movie. That's why I say I feel like this book that got turned into a movie obviously was the predecessor for the idea of several several several future horror films. One of them is called Stir of Echoes. It actually has Kevin Bacon. It's one of my favorite horror movies.

Kevin Bacon, ma'am the Kevin.

Yeah, the Kevin Bacon. And it's basically, this girl gets raped by a bunch of dudes and they accidentally kill her, and they hide her body somewhere and she comes back as a ghost and haunts them all and is trying to kill her.

That sounds very very ghost story in a novel, she's much more predatory. She gets drunk and she insists that they all drink and dance with and they're like starting to recoil from her, but she's being really vicious and awful, and she grabs Jeffery and says, kiss me a little toad and all that stuff that she says in the movie. And then one of them pushes her away, just like, you know, because they're all awkward and young, you know.

Yeah, Yeah, that there in lies their curse of this lady, not the curse of Robert the dollmind you, which I you know, like a curse nonetheless, And and before if I may, before we go deep dive into the full storyline there and how these things unfold, if we could just finish off going over these four actors that comprise these roles. Here we mentioned Melvin Douglas. He's one of the he's the next guy. He's the doctor, right, he's the Jaffery guy. Yeah, what are your thoughts on why

Uh, I'm guessing he was. He had been in The Changeling, another horror film, yeah, a year earlier, and that's they were probably thinking about the casting for that film. That's a really good one.

Is the Is that the same Changeling that would that would later get remade with uh Angeline and jo.

Lee I'm not sure, Oh that I don't know.

Same name though, right, yeah, it's the same name. I'm just curious as to if it this was the original and the one that Angeline and Joelie did was a remake because the one that she's in was about child trafficking and program serial killers.

That's this one, right, Yeah, it's a different plot line.

Yeah, like a straight haunted house movie.

But it was written well, so Melvioln Douglason that that'll be an interesting one to check out. And then was was there anything else that jump out you with?

The with old mill here, he's like a classically handsome guy for the era.

Do you mean handsome.

Handsome?

No, you know what I mean, like Rock Hudson, you know what I mean. He famously joined scientology of the same kind of era of acting, and you know, hide his homosexual activities.

Right, you know that cod of down there's definitely some of the There's always going to.

Be some of that, right right. He just kind of he struck me as a very rock huts and type of character, is what I'm saying.

Mm hmm.

So the one thing I found most interesting about this guy is he did a film called Be There, Be There with Peter Sellers, famously of the Ciela Drive Manson Tate. Plansky processed church situation out there in Siella Drive that culminated the Manson family murders. Peter Sellers was the regular and so was the director of this film. That was Ruman Plansky's best friend, Jerry cool Zenski.

So he's Besti's with all those fucks.

Huh, Jerry Kazinsky. Right here you go. This was this was the best friend born and Paul and this is best friends of old Ruman Polanski. You know Rouman Plansky, friends with old Cocaine Bob Roman Plansk.

Oh, here we go.

I saw being there, but it was years and I would have been a little kid when I saw it. So I don't remember much about it, but I do.

Yeah, I don't know much about either. I mean it says it's a satirical comedy drama, which is an odd phrasing of a genre of words in my opinion. So Peter Sellers, y'all know about him relative to the Manson situation in the process seeing out There and La in sixty nine sixties.

Yeah, I've read about it in Dave Mcowan's work.

Well, there you go. What do you recall from that? Because he was very tight right with this is? This is Peter Sellers with Sharon Tate and Christmas is sixty eight.

Yea, I somehow, maybe I'm fucking this up. But wasn't he also somehow friends with the Wonderland Avenue people too?

Oh? That that would be interesting. I'm not sure that would be interesting though.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

Maybe I'm remembering the whole scene. That's the whole scene now, I mean, that's those people were integrating the whole scene come the seventies, right, Yeah.

Like he bought drugs from them or something. I don't know.

That wouldn't I wouldn't be right, Yeah, I would say most people, now go ahead.

I was just gonna say. Somebody put in the comments. Yeah, Peter Sellers was a cruel psychopath behind closed doors, much like how they describe Frank.

Zappa among other same scene though, right these guys, right, I mean sailors, I mean sellers. So amongst these, uh, the various videos and pornographies, et cetera that we're allegedly filmed at Seela Drive, Sellers was deep in that mix, apparently along with folks like I mentioned before, Josh Brown, stepmother's old boyfriend, Warren Batty.

Oh, Warren Baty, don't get me started on him.

Best Buds Kissinger and cocaine Bob national Security never looks so sleazy. I like that. I like that phrasing. Todd Miller appreciate that. So yeah, I think it's odd you see this deep connection with all these kind of even within this film, right, you got these people that you know, you got Jerry because thence you in the orbit you got Peter Sellers in the orbit of of uh what's his name, Uh, Melvin Douglas.

Well, it's kind of like guilt by association, right, Your friends circle is got it's weird, you know.

The Beatles and Stones and Keith Richards living next to h John Phillips and yeah, yeah, m hmm.

So the next the last guy we got here is the main the main four old dudes is Douglas Fairbanks Junior.

Yeah, ned the mayor.

Yeah, I got something interesting please. It says his first marriage was to actress Joan Crawford. Isn't she the one that beat her kids up and locked him in rooms and beat him with hangers and ship?

Ship?

Okay?

Yeah, yeah, you've never seen Mommy Dearest JJ. No, well you're fucking up, because that is an amazing movie and there's a lot of quotable lines from that movie. But yeah, she adopted two kids and then just beat the shit out of them their entire life, just beat the ship and she would handcuff them to the bed at night, all kinds of stuff. A psycho and I always.

Thought she was one of the people that you could tell just looking at her that something was a little off, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, JJ, you need to watch that because I even put I even took something from this movie and I put it into my intro for my podcast because it's just so iconic. But anyways, yeah, she was horrible to her children who she adopted, and she was in the Have you ever seen a weird horror movie from back then called Baby Jane.

I've actually heard of that.

Yeah, whatever happened to Baby Jane?

Whatever happened to Baby Jane?

One of my fav're talking about.

She's in it, And the first time I watched it, my mom was like, oh, do you know the true story about what she did to her kids? And then we hadammidarist after that. But yeah, Jill Crawford real fucked up.

I'm definitely gonna be watching that. I appreciate that, thank you.

Mm hmmm.

So what else did her? So what these weren't This wasn't the dad of that right now?

Uh?

No, no, you talked about her kids?

Yeah, her kids?

Yeah?

Okay, oh that's right. You just said that. You just said that.

Well, that's what makes it worse is because like she hated kids, So why the fuck would you go and adopt two kids?

I think that public image because she was seen as kind of a brittle, unpleasant sort of person, and they told her, you know, if you had some kids, it would improve.

Your public image, right, and so she basically jj she would like John Banam and like dress them up in Christmas outfits and stuff, like parade them around like they were so happy, and you know, and the kids were just getting tied up at night and beat with hangars and all kinds of stuff. It's it's crazy, it's crazy.

Word out huh yeah mmmm, worn outer kids. So this is what I found interesting about Fairbanks. During World War Two, he served as a commissioned officer in the US Navy and enter World War two and assigned a Lord Mountain Batten's commando staff in the United Kingdom.

And he married a psychopath that beats her kids.

Right, Oh, you'll like this one. Also, he was he was later implicated in the Profumo scandal.

That's yeah, yeah, that's pretty much a direct connection to the process.

Yeah yeah. I mean it's long been suspected that Marianda Grimston was one of the prostitutes in that scandal, but it's not been confirmed, but there is heavy suspicions of such. Yep.

So he's the most interesting actor thus far, between him and Douglas my.

Opinion, you know those two.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

So we get back into the plotline of the film. As we said, these four old men, uh sensibly at least metaphorically speaking of the film, seemed to have raped this young woman and she John. As you mentioned, she falls down and and they think she's dead because she gets her head right, that's right. Yeah, this is the witchy woman that looks like Suzanne Conway, right, Alma right right, or or.

Eva her name is at that time, right, And it's I hate to keep bringing this up, but it's just so there are so many points that there was a real Eva, and the character who appears later in the Who the Chatter society consults to see if he can solve their problems is done well, there were a real Don and Eva. In the book, they're called Don Wanderley and Eva Galley.

Yeah.

The real Don was Don Warner, the guy who directed the play that Suzanne Conway was in, and he had a wife named Eva. That's how specific Straub's references were.

You ain't kidding, dude. That's that's like on the money, on the money.

It really is. Yeah, yeah, and that's right, Marie, it was yeah.

Yeah, yeah, dude. I mean at some point, like what, at what point in time did you consider like that Strawb obviously knew a lot about this, like how many details of these before you're like, wait a second, this is something's going on here.

You know, it was maybe late twenty twenty. I was rereading it for Halloween, like I do every year most years, and it was I was sitting in my chair one night and he was talking about neighborhoods in different places in this fictional city of Melbourne, and because I had been doing research, I just realized that every place he's talking about is just a Yonker's reference, like all the street names. There's a minor character the book named Venudi.

Well, relative to that Wanderley guy you were just talking about there, it says you're in your blog post. In the book's prologue, a man named Don Wanderley has kidnapped a young orphan girl from a park in Melbourne. It's down in New York State. He drives her to Panama City, which is the location of where John car was station.

It says, that's right, that's right. Yeah.

I just wanted to say this comment you got posted, Todd said, I learned everything about the Dutro scandal from Julia's show. Great work, Julia, just want to say that comment means the world to me because I worked tirelessly on that presentation for Program to Kill. I spent months pudding that presentation together. So thank you, Todd. And the stuff we're talking about today is no different. I mean all of this, this stuff, this the references he's making

They think that it really is. Yeah, they think it's funny.

You'll laugh about it, right, Yeah. They think I covered all this in Dragnet. I didn't know. I'm sorry, go ahead, Julia.

No, I was just gonna say. They think it's absolutely hysterical that we just watch movies and read books and you know, it's right in front of our face and we'll just never know, especially what John was talking about earlier with that guy's last name, Like, who else is going to put that together?

Yes, Pacaula, Yeah, so I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you. So the I did a Nicolet esoteric review a number of weeks back on Dragnet. So folks to the interwebs or John or jolly of you folks want to check it out.

Uh oh j Keith Frousin, Yeah, he'll probably be making a second yep.

In my back, My back, my back, Yeah, you're back. It's a nineteen eighty seven cinematic masterpiece, Dragnet and Cult. An esoteric review where we go over the elements of the process being told there. And I'll just use to emphasize my point, I'll bring up one one character from the film and show you the murder of Roy Raidin. Right, So back to back to my favorite character here at Operation GCD, not Cocaine Bob Boy. He was the unindicted co conspirator in the murder of Roy Raiden, so the

He had along, he had a background. He apparently was pretty serious about his occultism.

He was.

He's been alleged to have been involved with Son of Sam, particularly the Christine Freud murder. He was supposed to have been on the scene there, if not the actual shooter. And he's well, he has a he's another one of these people. He's a movie into himself.

That you ain't kidding.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was mentioned in Program to Kill as being like they linked him somehow to being an offshoot of like after the Manson family murders went down, there was the Common Club, yeah, and then this guy yeah, uh huh, all process offshoot kind of weirdos.

So one of the other things he was notorious for was being the security guard and chauffeur of Larry Flint. Yeah, And in the nineteen eighty seven cinematic Masterpiece were introduced to jack O Hallahan's character Imo muzz He is the security guard and driver of the pornographer in the film, which is part a machination of what I would argue is Larry Flint and and uh Hugh Hefner. But he he's also a major figure in the cult that is Siege that has taken a siege of Los Angeles and

Somebody who wrote the stuff knew exactly what was happening, and they knew who the players.

Were to speak. You see what I'm saying, how much you no, I agree to her, but you see how much these dudes look. I mean, they played the same role.

Ash, come on, and they're playing like the same he's playing the real guy.

You know what I mean?

And oh, haller hand don't look anything like like they had. This is all made up with the hair and the mustache they gave to him there So and it's interesting because this is what I like the joke when you this is what reminded me of this You all were

In my froze my back, my back, so I didn't know if it was me or you. Yeah, you're you're back.

Yeah. So Evans makes both de Niro in Hoffman's careers. Hoffmann's playing a ceturial take on I just think that de Niro is doing the kind of a cterial take on Henry Kissinger there. But nonetheless he walks out of the theater and says, I thought it looked great. So when this film came out in nineteen eighty seven, I often wonder if this fellow, who was not arrested until August of eighty eight, walked out of that same film and said, I thought I looked great on the big screen.

I bet he did, you know, because they said too when he was when he was arrested, they found a copy of Maury's book and it had his parts underlining the book. And he told somebody that they in this book they described what I did as a perfect which wasn't actually true. But he he had that conscious vanity about himself that when he knew he was being written about or depicted in the movie, he was he knew about it, you know, he was, he was happy about it.

Somebody had seen something in the commons here, hang on, is.

It Kane b He was friends with the box fast Eddy.

The one before that. He's somebody's talking about a movie that rolls of dan Aykroyd.

But fast Eddie was the mina somma bitch I've ever met in my life. I think Kane's actually telling you now an actual story here. He used to work for a tourist trap restaurant in the eighties. Oh so, because Kane used to live in San Diego in the eighties. That's interesting, Kane, so he was friends with Bill, your old boss was friends with Bill Metzer. Huh, that's we

Yeah, you're good, You're good. I was just reading the comments over here.

It looks like I don't know, Oh, go ahead.

I was just gonna say, look like Headless is in the comments. People are on fire tonight. We got all kinds of stuff coming through. This is awesome.

It's good stuff. I appreciate the folks of your webs and joined the show and commenting here on the on the chat, So where did we leave off? Before I went on a cocaine bob excursion, we.

Were talking about how she basically they kill her.

No, was that what we were talking about. Yeah, we were saying how it was similar. They were bragging about these stories, right, But no, they killed the woman on accident. And then the next thing we see, right is one of the character's sons falling out of a building was showing us as dick.

And you don't realize at first that she's they get you. The woman he's with is the one that's the central figure.

Right.

That's a good point too. I thought you meant you don't realize at first they're going to show you his dick because I didn't realize that.

They show you plenty of of tit action too.

And but from this, no, I had no idea dan Ackroyd bought Mama Cass's house. Get the fuck out of here. That's awesome stuff. Come on, because he already he's already he's already questionable enough. Starring Opposite Tuesday Well, the nineteen ninety five film starring Keanu Reeves and Courtney Love Feeling Minnesota.

Yeah, and that Dan he has a serious interest like in ghosts and UFOs and just the paranormal.

Well, absolutely, John, and I cover that. You'll you'll enjoy this comparison. I cover that in that Dragonet film that he, you know, went into some of the Ghostbusters activities. I think he has raised a cult. Bookstore was based upon the Magic Child.

I wouldn't doubt it. I wouldn't doubt it.

And Mama Cass's House makes sense to me.

Hey, look, if you start opposite, they will makes sense to me.

That's like Jared leto buy and lookout Mountain Laboratory. Yeah, and he's doing some kind of cult.

Activity that was originally Natalie Woods house. Holy Masicious, that's some great stuff.

You got that.

I didn't know that either.

Holy Ship.

Who is this? It's Masicious. That's not ship, It's totally Masicious.

She has a lot of good information. I know her. She research.

Thank you man. That's a that's some awesome stuff.

Yeah, some awesome stuff.

I don't know. Nicholas Roorck, who's that?

Oh, the Russian painter, who's that mystical?

Is he a weirdo child diddler, Cannibal little really just just sort.

Of known as a painter of like mystical and occult subjects. Thank you made glad you're listening tonight.

May I need to get you on my show. What the fuck? Geez? People in the comments are going, John, you brought the best audience tonight. Holy crap.

That's not that?

Is that is that?

May? May?

May Zech? Do I know this Maze? Is this one of your followers?

Well, we're just fellow researchers and nice.

It sounds like I need I need to know this person.

Yeah, it's both interested in the same kinds of things.

And I'm so glad I didn't know dan Aykroyd bout that fucking house. That's I mean, I don't a lot of these details.

I didn't either. But it's so great that people are talking about this stuff because it really is. It's not. This aspect of it has not discussed a whole lot, I don't think, or maybe it is privately, but I've just never been able to engage a whole lot of people in the Son of Sam community in this.

I'm hope to see the interest down. I hope to see the interests.

I'm gonna have to put my email in if you could. I email JJ at the end of the show so people can reach send me an email reach out and I want to get may on my show. Only crack throwing out some crazy info like that, I need to know more.

It's a real barn burner here, Julie. It's a real barn.

Burner burning down the barn. Holy shit.

So after we see the unsolicited dick pic of one of the main characters sons that jumps out of the building because he sees the ghost, right, the ghost comes on him. What's that about? Why is the ghost aunting the man's son.

Well, he's one of the two sons of Ned, the mayor and the the guy that Eve I actually liked in nineteen twenty nine or whatever it was. He's one of the two sons.

He's uh, do you take it as being like Ricky right? Ned and Ricky right? Because the next thing we see is the father chasing after Ricky. He goes to see his dad for the funeral of his brother and tells his dad, Hey, I would sleeping with that lady too, right, yeah, he tells his dad, right, yeah.

But do you take that kind of freaks out right lamb kind of thing, like the firstborn son, like, I'll get you and your firstborn son kind of thing.

That's what I was thinking, kind of right, a little curse. Yeah, well, Robert the Dolls curse.

I'm not sure how they actually were thinking about it in in the film and in the book, Alma Till's done really specifically that, you know, when we get married, I want to go back and get married in the town where you grew up, and I want all your father and all of his friends and everybody in the town to be there, and I want them to see me.

And then the next phrase she says is the phrase she repeats at the end, right, that she's gonna make them all kind of like she's gonna make them all pay. They're all gonna feel her or something like that.

That's exactly it. Yeah, it's revenge for what they did to her, albeit accidentally. Now it's funny because in the movie they really it's sort of inadvertently I think, turns the men and the chatter society into the villains because they just kill this woman who has no she's just a normal human being.

You know.

In the book, there's already something wrong with Eva, and she already is this sort of inhuman other worldly figures, so that they they think that they have killed a human woman, but what they have actually done is just anger, a an other worldly sort of spirit being that just keeps coming back at them over and over at various points throughout their history. But she's even at the point where they kill her in the novel the first time as Eva, she already is not a human. She's something else,

I knew it.

Yeah, it becomes people or animals or whatever, but it's always in the disguise of a physical creature, but it's not. It's not actually a physical person or an animal at all.

Right, She's like a siren. She's like a yeahs figure, yeah yeah, and can lure you in with like her good looks and stuff.

But then she turns right.

Yeah, but think of it like JJ, like in the Shining, you know, when it's like a beautiful woman in the bathtub, and then he goes to kiss her and she turns into like some weird hag witch thing that's like laughing and cackling like that's Eva, Like she's like some kind of weird siren.

Which we see that a lot. Though that same sequence you just described from The Shining, we see that same sequence play over here in this film as well, with this this witchy character, right, this this Eva Alma character. But it is it's that's the call of the siren, is what she's doing. When I think when she says, I will take you place you've never been, I will show you things that you've never seen, and I will see the life run out of you. She repeats that numerous times in the film.

It's like a chance. It's like the priestess thing, you know, it's like a spell.

Yeah, yeah, but she's learning these men in with especially Ricky. She lowers Ricky in with that statement, right, m.

Yeah, that's right. And the our real life priestess, that is the the image she consciously affected. She she was like that Sue Conway, right, yeah, that was very much her her persona.

You know, yeah, that's I mean, you bring up some good points there. So then we see we see Ricky and is it Ricky Senior? Right, he falls off the bridge they're chasing Ricky Jr. Right, Well, yeah, but but yeah, yeah, I'm.

Sorry, falls off the bridge and he sees uh Almah's or Eva's figure. They're approaching him just as he's about to jump off.

Yeah. Yeah, And then and then and after that is when we start getting into the bending of reality, right, because when they go when fred Astaire goes to the house, right, well, that's is that the next scene, right, is that the next part.

It's it's somewhere early in there. I forget exactly when he goes to it. Uh. Now, incredibly too that that whole house is a matte painting. It's not even a real hat. That's it's an amazing painting there. But that's uh. I wish I could remember the name of the guy that did those paintings.

For the for the Yeah, I'll look that up here in a second. So we are just looking at the Oh, that's right, So doubting his father committed suicide. Don then the remaining three friends and tells them a ghost story, right, approaches the remaining three friends. So then that's when the son is trying to get into the club, right.

Right, right, and he uh, they talk to each other because he's a horror author, and I think Riky or somebody suggests or not it's not Ricky. Maybe it's Sears who suggests well edward Son and knows about all this weird stuff, so maybe he could tell us something to sort of calm us down a little bit and keep our imaginations from running away with us. So they asked him to come to town, and he uh. He attends one of their meetings and yes, Sears is really grouchy

Now you're that's spot on, that's what. And the next thing we see is them and he's recounting this story, right, But that's when we meet Alma, right, So that's when it started blurring the boring the reality situation, right right.

Before Alma knew his brother who dies at the beginning of the movie, she knew Don and uh, she approaches him when he's teaching at some university in Florida somewhere.

And I may put it in that statement because I got an interesting, little weird thing that I saw on that whole Florida thing. I'll bring us at the end, but please continue.

Yeah, well he he uh. He falls for her, and initially they're planning to get married, but she just gets weirder and weirder, and he has more of these strange experiences where her he he's it becomes impossible for him to ignore that something's wrong with her, and eventually, one day he tells her that he's breaking it off, you know, And.

So she and this is all going on in the past. He's now retelling in the present based upon his brother already hooking up with this girl. Right, so it kind of it's suddenly the whole When I was watching, I was like, holy shit, did this stuff this all collapsed on me at once? Dude, I didn't see it coming.

Yeah, And that's one of those things that's very much like the book is it's different narratives woven into each other, different time periods, and yeah, it starts to get pretty complex at that point.

Come, it comes at you real fast, because then you realize the opening sequence when he saw his brother falling out the building and the dick pic. The lady that he saw was this Alma ghosts. Yeah, I'm sorry's sleeping with Alma, but he sees the ghost of Eva in her and then falls out the window. And then you find out his father is doing the same. And then his brother's like, wait a second, I've been banging this broad for a while, guys.

So time he talks to his brother, he's in a bar and he says, David, don't don't marry her, something's wrong with her, and yeah yeah.

Thereafter yeah, wild ship man, wild Ship. Yeah, what was your taking all that? Julia?

Well, I just wanted to note two things I thought were cool from this part of the movie. The fact that he knows Don knows that he has to quote unquote like blood his way into the cult. Right, He's gotta pay his dues. He's gotta tell this story to get into the Sea Great Society.

Right when he says the series, he's like John House, He's like, hey, I want to get in, and there's John Sten is kind offended, and then he offers up his blood sacrifice.

Right right, Yeah, so I felt like that was symbolic. And then when it shows him at the university talking to his class full of students, the only thing he's really talking about is is being seduced and someone seducing or him seducing someone else, or he's talking about like a short story, but it's all about seduction, and like the weird siren thing, you know, So it's it's weird weird.

Tiren things are I'm spinning because I was You're making a great point, I want to comment, and I was also trying to actually it thumbs up and talk at the same time. Apparently I can't do all at once without spinning on myself. So that's a great point you.

But yeah, no, those were two things that I took out of it. Also just a funny part from the beginning of the movie when the dad goes to pick up the sun from the train station. He's like, look at you. You look horrible, and he's wearing like a sweater vest in like a button Like if you saw somebody wearing that outfit, you'd be like, oh, he looks nice, where's he going? And the Dad's like, you look like shit, he.

Wasn't dressed right. He was dressing you know, really you know, put together as far as style and whatnot goes. You wasn't doing flannel and headbands what I'm saying, you know. And again it kind of that was an interesting scene to me because it's like he didn't want to the son didn't want to go back there. He already knew that, he already knew the dynamic that they didn't know that he was banging his lady already. He didn't want to

So well I did that. It was another testament as to the elitism of the family, because.

That's what I'm saying, Like he's getting heat from his dad no matter what he does.

Sweater vest looks like ship to the dad, Like what's the dad on?

You know.

Yeah, So it's like another testament as to these high elite Secret Society members and their kids, right dying mysteriously accidentally killing people in their past.

And covering it up like total accident. Yeah, while we're on the topic, and you bring us some great points. While we're on the topic, was there anything important about the scenes that we see that are the actual scenes, right? And like not the obviously you've made all those correlations between Yonkers and the fictional town of Melbourne with the namesakes of roads and whatnot and people's But we see a couple interesting places like Saratoga Springs is one of

Yeah, I believe that's right. Yeah, I'm not sure if there was any particular reason that they chose those locations, but for the town square, it it looks and sounds a lot like the wheat Row of the book, the on Square of Melbourne in the novel. So that's uh, that's it's very close and tone to what what Straw described in the novel.

How about during the Son of sam Era, was there any connections to the Kipps Bay area of Manhattan, Not to my knowledge.

Although a lot of those members did sometimes go to hang out in the city, so it's possible that that there's some that one of them had a connection to to Kipps Bay.

Yeah, I don't as much I know about New York City when I used to hang out there all the time. I never I don't know anything about that region of Manhattan. I was, you know, I was normally found in mcsorley's, the oldest bar in Manhattan, with Sorley's Old Ale House, a bunch of old surly Irish dudentes. I highly recommend the place, great spot, but I don't know much about

That definitely was was an area that I think everybody when you go there you have at least one sort of strange experience. You walk past some place and you realize that it's a place that you've read about. You weren't consciously seeking it out, but there it is, and you realize you're standing next to it, and it just you know, because there's so many places like that in New York. But mine was the place where William Burrows

Well, well, John Sara, you just signed yourself up for another show here in Operation GCD, because it is William Burrows who institutes the smiley face as a chaos symbol into the Neo process movement.

Yeah, yeah, Burrows was, he was, he was something else.

I as always absolute your refforts and all these things. I learned something new. I I did not know these these Boroughs connections. I do need to learn more Burroughs stuff.

Clearly, it's spooky. He was involved in some and he admitted, you know, he said I had CIA acquaintances, which I think you're underplaying it a little bit. But at the very least, yeah, he heed.

And a scientologist, John, and a scientologists that's.

Right, that's right, very dedicated scientologist. And one we sure, and that's right DeLand, Florida. And you know, May another thing about DeLand is I believe that's where Burrow's son of Billy Jr. He died in DeLand, or somewhere just outside of the land. Strangely enough, just as we're we're talking about Burrows.

Yeah, that's.

Yeah. But Billy or Willie Junior, Yeah, guy.

Die his number three, William number three dies March third, nineteen eighty one, survey says DeLand, Florida. Yeah.

He was a very good writer in his own right, and I to his credit, ultimately, I believe although it caused him a lot of pain in his life. He was not a part of his father's circle. He was very much outside that and was was frustrated and didn't understand all the the weird you know that that weird group of friends, and you know that his father had all the strange stuff that he was involved with. He I think a lot of that was was a mystery

He did die at thirty three.

Though I'm not gonna, y'all rather blow my brain all here, and I don't want to. I don't want to. You're you know, make some great points and I don't want to direct you from them. But yeah, I do have to get us back on track here with the chapter society.

Yeah, well we'll yeah, well, we'll go ahead and sun ups as the rest of.

The Oh, I assure you you have both of you receiving emails from me tonight with these various notes of things that come back in the future of an invite. So I do appreciate your time and for blowing my brain. Though I just like to try to keep this their have gone because I you all just made so many comments that I've been my tongue on. We'll just we'll stay we'll stay the path here. We'll definitely be doing these in the future though, these other things.

Yeah. Absolutely.

So the next thing we see is Don there getting engaged to Alma.

Huh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, That's probably my favorite part of the movie is when he starts to realize that something's wrong with her. It's it's really creepy. You know, there's very little dialogue, but she's acting so weird, and they keep flashing back to the looks on his face and he's just it's that.

I really like that part, said Don. I meant David, so Don to learn that he was horrid to become engaged at Alma. So Don then shows the three elders, right, yeah, he.

He shows them a photo and they say, oh my god, that's that's Eva. We remember Eva.

So yeah, so we have three we have three old muppets at this point, right, because Don's dad's dead.

That's right, that's right. He's the one that jumped off the bridge.

Yep, Don's brother's dead because he was banging Alma. Right, we saw his dick at the beginning of the film, right, stay. Unfortunately, good point. I'm just reiterating. That's so, folks, you go watch this film. Can expect the they want to watch it, that's up to them. At least.

Scary part of the movie.

Dude, I only jumped at one part and that was that part. Like there was another jump scar.

It's an unflattering shot for any actor. I think.

Inappropriate.

They didn't even like slap it around and get it kind of half chubb or something like. No, it was full on baby dick.

It looks very awkward. Yeah, it must have been an awkward day on set.

Well, I mean, you know when there's a lot of awkward days and a lot of sets, you know what I mean.

And his bush on the first.

The so the next day we lose the second and we lose our next muppet.

Yes, yes, that's doctor Jeffery.

Yeah yeah, huh yeah yeah. So then and then after that, then the other the two remaining muppets, fred Astaire and the other guy the Ricky and Sears right houseman and Freda's Staire, right yeah, yeah. They tell they kind of bring Ricky in on the scene or I'm sorry, don in on the scene at that point, right. Yeah.

They explained to him, just just like in the book, to everything that happened. They in the book, when it's just the two of them left, they're sitting in Edward's house, uh, and they're they're saying, you know, we're we're gonna explain to you what happened and what the history of this is, and we're not proud of it, but we killed this woman and we didn't mean to.

Yep. Uh so yeah, and that's when we see the scene and that they flashes back to when they were dancing. Right, that's right, that's right. It says after the four were uh oh, that's not it. After the four win Hammond became drunk. They returned to the houses of the dilapidated house that we see in the future. Actually we skipped over that part, and I apologize. So, yeah, it's town fred Astaire, mister Ricky there, right, he goes over to that old mercy and right what happens there in the

Yeah, well, he sees Gregory and Finny. Their roles in the film were a little murky. There's not any real reason for them to be in the film other than to just add another horrific layer to the story. But

Uh.

But their roles in the film are are much diminished compared to what they do in the book.

But oh yeah, yeah, Well, the one thing I did pick up on there was, especially after fredis Stare gets chased out of there by them, you hear Alma's voice and them going to room like she's got some sort of mind control spell on them.

That's right, She lasts, and she says, I've got something for you to do or something of that effect. Yeah, and the the the police dispatch. The guy on the dispatch phone says, tells the sheriff, well, we've got this weird guy in town, Gregory Bate. He was involved in some cult or something back on the West coast and he's he left, he got out of an asylum or something, and he's, uh, he's here in Milbourne now, and uh, they're there is that verbal tie to all the cult stuff in the movie.

So two questions. One I just forgot while I was asking you that, and uh, secondly I forgot the second one. So I will get back to you points about bateson and there were both relative debates and whatever it was.

He had some odd concepts and he was a huge influence on already Lane.

Yeah. Yeah, not the comedian, No, the Oh so did the mill Milburne? Was that any not to mil Grum.

You know, I'm not sure. That's a good question.

It may have been, you know, the milgrim experiment.

Yeah, yeah, and that's that's a good point. It may have been that.

Uh.

I would have asked Peter Strout if I could have asked him, you know, and sat down with him and said like, sure, wow, man, you really packed the references into this one book. It's just it's incredible hardcore.

Yeah, this may have been his opus. I don't know about I'm not a hundred on that JJ.

When they were convincing folks to shock, they thought they were getting you know, deadly levels of shock therapy, but really they were just an actor holding the things like they were getting shocked and the person didn't know the whole thing was an experiment. But they realized that they could get other people to kill people because they were being told to do so. Oh shit grant on paper. At least allegedly, they weren't really killing folks. There was

Well, I mean this is a psychological operation.

That's what I mean. So this guy, That's what I'm saying. So if we're doing baits and stuff, right, why would Milburn not be a nod to mil Groom?

Right?

Ah, for sure?

Yeah, yeah, those were the thoughts of the circle back of my brain hole there.

That was.

I appreciate you all stand by for that one. But yeah, So the next thing we see, after we see the four, the three out of the four dance with the Eva. She hits her head. They put her in the car, they sent her in the pond, but she's alive when she goes in that pond. So that's a very to me, that's very indicative a ritual human sacrifice.

And water same and the fact that she's a siren.

There you go again with the sirens. I wasn't even considering that the first time I saw it. With the siren stuff, that's even Yeah, brings it all right into the same same conversation.

And it's like she draws her power from the water because water is a conduit for Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. So they call him Gregory Bait, which yeah, I was like, wait a second, that's a little too on the nose, Gregory Bates and yeah, yeah. So then we go back to present day, right, and then that's when these fellows start, you know, after they flashed back to yesterdayear remember the time they killed that lady and they're like, wait a second, and that lady is the new lady? What's going on here?

Right? Right? And then you have a long flashback scene with the with the young versions of all the members of the Chatter Society, and we see how they meet Eva like a summertime, some sort of social gathering, and then they she's had a tea or a dance or something, and they all become fascinated with her. But it's it's ned who's the best looking of the bunch, and it's

They put in zero efforts and watching.

Like oh wait, she's alive, you know, drooling and punching, and looked at each other and they were like, wow, fuck, I guess she's dead, right, And.

That's that's that's supposed to be, Like, look at these horrible, spoiled rich kids. Look at what they did, had a chance to save somebody's life, and they, which is in the book is is the way they think of themselves all throughout their lives. They think, God, we just killed somebody. We murdered a woman, and then Don tells Sears and Ricky in the book, you know, she never was a woman. There was always something wrong with her. What you did

Families and killing their sons.

And the audience to see their sons dick because they're falling out of building. Yeah, so that I'm obviously upset about that or anything.

We flashed back to present time.

He flapped He what I said? That guy flashed something all right in that in that scene falling out the building.

Yeah, his baby asparagus.

What were you saying? The flashback to the present when we see them concluding that Eva and Alma are the same person, right.

Yeah, and then they're like, all right, what are we gonna do? And they decide to drive back to Eva's old boarded up, old scary house.

Yeah, where fred Astaire got Ricky got chased out by the goons, the goons squad, yep.

Yeah. And in the meantime, here Sears he has left Ricky's house alone to sort of divert attention because he thinks if he can draw the bad guys away from Ricky and Don, that he'll sacrifice himself to do this. So he does. Sears dies when Gregory and Finny magically appear in his car. So they kill Sears in his car out in the snow, and then there's just Ricky and Don left and they go to Eva's house and yeah, Don hurts his leg and.

Uh stairs in the old lap and instructure. Huh right right, and then we see them going uh and he suddainly has a go ahead.

Oh yeah, I was just yeah, the interior that is really nice that they convincingly recreate a broken down house from that period. It's that's really nice.

And maybe that's where the main thing. Yeah, yeah, we see, we suddenly see, after watching all his friends die, that he's something that old Ricky here suddenly gets a conscience about himself. Huh he does.

Yeah, And while he's going to get help for Don, who can't move because of his injured leg, he gets the idea that, well, maybe if we pull the old car up from the pond. And it's not real clear how he thinks this is going to solve everything, but he wants to make it the nineteen twenty nine incident, right, So he tells the sheriff what he and his friends did to the woman back then, and that they pushed the car into the pond. So they go and they get on.

The pond routine and he thinks that the woman is that he thinks the woman is in the car or not in the car.

He thinks somehow if he can dredge up the body and expose the body, that the ghost will leave Don alone. And it's never really clear how that works, but he gets a tow truck and a crane and a wench and everything, and they they dredge the pond and then.

The old pond the car of the pond. Magic trick with the car.

Right, Yeah, Yeah, it's it is kind of an unexpected that, like that's not where you expect the plot to go, you know. But Done is waiting in the house and Eva's ghost is right there and she's reaching out for him and she's like a skeleton hand touching his throat and he's screaming and and so. But just at that

Yeah.

Well yeah, it was like every she needed everybody to know what happened to you.

Yeah, And and just by their dredging up the car and exposing the body somehow or other, her her visits satisfied. Right, Yeah, yeah, that puts you, Yeah.

Which you know, to a certain extent, I feel like that's kind of these tropes and that that that you know, there's some sort of you know, something attracting keeping these uh, these you know, this isn't the first time we've seen some sort of a priestess of a witchcraft type of deal sorcery kind of being that's haunting folks until they can get something back from the person a heart or

Right, like a pound of flesh?

Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Yeah.

So I'm trying to remember why I saved this from the film, and I just got distracted because, uh was that it? We're I'll give you all some closing statements, but that was I thought that was a great recap of events. But I had saved two notes from earlier I said that were really weird and creepy synchronistic events for me when I was watching this film and reading

Oh Patrician Neil. Yeah, I almost forget. Yeah, she was Ricky's wife.

Yeah, that's right, she was Ricky's wife, Thank you, sir. I knew there was some reason why I saved this.

Yeah, and why can't I think of her name Stella?

Yeah? Yeah, so she was married to the old diddler Roll Doll. Because them Snosberry's from Willi Wanka turned out to be dicks and not candy.

Yeah she was. At one point she was Dashal Hammett's girlfriend too.

Oh interesting, Yeah, when roll Doll was telling folks that the Snosberry's tastes like Snosberry's according to them kids. He would later just crib to Snosbery in the later book as Dix.

In fact, according to one of Nashal Hammett's daughters, Hammett warned her, uh, don't get married to him. He's not a good person, or something to that effects. So that that's interesting.

Yeah, that is interesting. Well, can't be the purge there. It's my Abin Costello Cohort and Idaho. Four conversations we do over there on his show, and he's gonna love this one. So as you can see her. Patricia O'Neil was a member of Phi Beta Pie, the sorority girls up and around that Idaho. For murder, we're all Phi Beta Pie. Interesting. Interesting And the man, the male, the male victim was Sigma Chai. And in the film we hear them singing this song Sweetheart of signay Chais.

Yes, that's what we're singing it down down below eas window.

Yeah. Yeah, the Snisberry like Snilesberry's. Yeah, according to these guys, and eat a bunch of dicks. If you asked me to believe this is somehow just weird circumstances.

I would not put that pass role though at all. He was a very peculiar person.

I'm just saying, like, it's weird. It just weird to me that in the future past all of these things. Again, I don't want to get into comments of questions of time and concept of time, but it is weird to me how some of these things work that, like you can have such you know, elements where an actress as a member of the same sorority as these victims, and they're singing a song about the other victim and the fraternity he's from. It's just a weird concept of the

Man?

Gil Bill Searns went off in my brain hole, is what I'm saying.

I think all of this stuff is absolutely conscious. I mean, it just doesn't.

It's you know, yeah, well, I'm what I'm saying about time and magic. It's like and again I want to this is a conversation for a different day. But I think part of this and Peter Lavenda, the OTO member, brings us up in his book relative to some of the son the same matters right, talking about time and centers for forces and whatnot, and how you can how

Yeah, yeah, And these people they do, they're very serious about what they do. A lot of them, well, this this stuff is silly that they're into, but it's but they take it very very seriously.

Right, I say that all the time. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, when when, for example, when people try to try to suggest to me that the Church of Satan and Antonavay was just a carnival barker and it was all bet it is all a gambit, and I'm like, all right, dude, well that's hilarious, but I don't buy it.

Yeah, And that's exactly what they want people to think. It's all just a joke.

Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, we're we're just we're just agnostic. We just like the Lares devils and weird shit.

Like the Larvest devils. You know what it is to This is something that I always bring up when I cover these type of topics is if they weren't results, why would they keep doing it. They've been doing it forever and obviously they're getting some kind of results, so you don't have to believe in it, but they do. And obviously it's working for them, or they wouldn't do the shit that they're doing.

Oh yeah. And when I say this nonlinear aspect of time, where ideas come from, especially for writers, and again suggested by Peter Leavenda, where I even came up but started going on this path, not just his ideas, but he's the one who sent me on this path. I believe he mentions it in Sinister Forces. There was a book written, I believe in eighteen eighty seven called The titan which was about an indestructible cruise linership that went between Europe

Yeah, no, absolutely, oh yeah, you get in, Julie.

Get something obvious, just for at least for the advocation of the folks of the interwebs. Who have missed my you know routine and you know unsolicited tirades on time time, then you know there's part of it on right there. I appreciate both of your all's time and night speaking of time, Julia and John both, and for blowing up my brain whole a number of times.

Which thanks I just got.

I just started getting walk in that cycle for a moment. There are things you suggested to me and I didn't know. I'm like, wait a second, I got to close the show out first before I start doing that. So I appreciate both of your all time.

Yeah you yes, Yes, great to meet you. John, I always love go ahead, thank you, No, that's all I had. JJ.

Go ahead.

I'll make sure I connect y'all with the emails and I'll put your email Julia in the show notes for folks to reach out to you, especially maze Iss, who I again love to hear more thoughts there, ma'am. That's

I thought this movie was really awesome. John obviously reads the book every October. It sounds like it's just a part of his Halloween ritual thing that he does. I have a similar one. I watch American Horror Story season one in three every October, just something I like to do. I think there's a lot of conspiracy stuff within American Horror Story. And so yeah, it's just nice meeting people who know what's up and having a good conversation. JJ,

That's awesome. No, thank you, ma'am. And I definitely one thing I was thinking, and we'll turn over to John for an answer, but i'd like to get both y'all back on to discuss Program to Kill after John gets a chance to read it.

Absolutely, I'm down for that anytime.

What do you say, Johnny? Gunny close statements, we walcome back and I'm sure you're walking back any time to talk any of these things. But you know, I would love to get your input on the Program to Kill once you get a chance to read that. And I don't knock over my micro front with the karate chop.

Yeah, I look forward to that. Yeah, I'm gonna start reading it tomorrow. So yeah, and and thank you guys. And I'm just uh, I'm still working on the book. I don't know when that's gonna come out, but it's it's gonna be a big one. And it's uh, it's taken me a long time because I'm doing all the editing and all the drafts myself. So I'm just working on it bit by bit, but it'll it'll be out eventually.

It's good to have a better uh probably like you you know, you can stand behind rather than one that's timely, you know what I mean.

Right, Yeah, I want to I want to take some care of it.

So so it.

Passion project.

Yeah, that's great stuff. And like I said, I have all your all folks in the inter webs can find Julia's stuff, John stuff and the links and their show in the show notes. And uh, I don't have any closing statements myself other than I greatly appreciate your all time conversation, all the time of the and chad of the folks of the interwebs, and tune in for Operation

I would believe that one hundred. I think McMartin Presidio, I mean they're just uh, you know, drops in the bucket. Yeah, if you if you can imagine. And just as a closing thought, this is a closing thought anyone who has read Program to Kill Her or they're familiar with McMartin preschool scandal or the Presidio daycare scandal. I just recently saw something saying that the movie with Robin Williams Missus Doubtfire, that character, Missus Doubtfire is based on the preschool teacher

Go and look it down. I'm gonna look at it as we get off of here, in fact, but yeah, that's just for sure, no, thank you. And from Presidio to West Point at that same time in the eighties there was more than one diddling scandal. So that's from coast to coast, that's my point. We were so as part of the propaganda and magic show, we're sold these one off incidents and say everyone, look at this incident.

Yeah nope.

So folks want to check out more of that business, please check out Operation GC Thursdays and uh. On that note, and if he yelled on anything else, I thank you all both for your time and folks of the interwebs, thanks a lot.

Enjoyed it.

Thank you.

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