She Survived Being Shot, Bombed And Working At Google - EP 58 Anna Prouse

I could also understand why the guy wanted me dead. Now, on the way there he killed every one in the car, So you yeah, you you duck and then you get out of the con I duck and I figure out that they're all dead because then I I have to climb over my dead friend body. And there's chaos around the car and I don't under I I'm like, Oh my god, everyone's screaming and I'm like, Oh God, I don't wanna be lynxed. I mean, I you know, to be to die because they beat the hell out of me, please not. So I

run into a house. And in Baghdad at that time all the w doors are open to let the the air flow. And, you know I I I watch probably too many movies and I ran into a corner because I you know, at least in a corner your shoulders are you something behind you? And I'll I'll s I'll scrutinize what's in front of me.

And I'll wait for the Marines to to come and save me. So my ultra is like, Where are the Marines? Where are the Marines? And that's when you realise, no, this is not a movie. I mean time that anyone knows that this is happening on the streets and

I'll be dead. So I need to figure this out on my own. And instead of the Marines I have a bunch of women in black charters come in and do the classic shouting. You're in somebody's house. I'm in somebody's house. Yeah, yeah. In a corner with a bunch of dead people house. And and so th the lady comes in with all her friends, I guess, and they start it's panic. So they scream, they do the panic, scream.

Yeah. And I'm like, oh God, now the snipers because I still think about the snipers. The snipers will know that I'm here. And then I'm saying, Okay, I am not getting shot at while staring at the person who's shooting at me. If they go if I'm getting killed today, I'm running for survival.

Hello everyone. Welcome to the Core Memory Podcast. This is Ashley Vance, as always. Today We have a different sort of podcast. We're we're we're going there is going to be some tech and and silicon valiness to this um at some point, but but we're gonna I we're going to tell you one of the most extraordinary

stories that I have run into in a long time. Someone who's lived just an amazing life. Um on a prouse is this person. How are you? I'm good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I'm gonna ramble for a second. just to set all this up because it is a little bit different, but we w we share a hairstylist, I think is what they are are called these days. Um and her name is is

uh Jessica Miani, she's lovely. I've been going to her for fifteen years. If you if you live in Palo Alto and you need a hairstylist, look her up. Um and so I'm in the chair, I don't know, it was like two months ago, I think. And She's like, you know, one of my other customers, um, she's live this amazing. life. She's she's just written this book um in Itali. She already had a book come out in Italy about a a memoir, a biography.

About her life, and and then she's she's translating it into English. And any, I was like, Well, what's it about? You know, she's like, Well, she was this. She's this Italian and she was in Iraq and Iran and and was you know, working in um at the Red Cross and then and then got involved with the US military and General Petraeus and all this and had all these near death

experiences it was uh unfolding the story. I was like, I have to talk to this woman. And so we've never met before. No, we've not. Yeah. And I think I emailed you just a few days ago, was like, please will you come in to the studio and and tell your story. Yeah. Here you are.

Um Okay, there's a million places we could go'cause in your book you lay out your life story and I wanna get into it, but I thought we would maybe not go chronologically just because I wanna give people a feel for this incredible career. you've had, which is is harrowing and inspiring and and just extraordinary. Um, so

You're Italian. You've written a book called Honorary Man, which we're gonna it's a amazing title and we're gonna explain what that means. Um, but I'm gonna transport us to two thousand one is where I thought I would start, which is The September eleventh attacks have literally just happened as you were already planning to go to Iran, I think as a journalist, um, and you were gonna cover something else.

But in this moment when probably everybody else would have been like, I'm canceling my flight to Tehran, uh, this is probably not the best time to go. You decide to go anyway. And this sets you up for um, what is it? It's about like a twelve year run in the Middle East or even even more. I still I still have

go out in the Middle East quite a lot. So it's it's been then my my career since then. Okay. Okay. So Walka's take take me to two thousand one, September eleventh has just happened and and you're You're at home or you're at the airport and what were you setting out to do and then and then what what happened next? Yeah, so um

September eleventh happened and on that same morning I had gone to the Iranian embassy, Iranian consular office in Milan to pick up my visa. Now they knew me well because I had been in Iran before to write a book about Iran. And um they give me my visa and then I go home and I see what happens. And you're right, I remember my family saying, Well, of course you're not going and uh my friends were like, No way.

And I was like, No, I even more so want to go. Um It was mainly to understand what was happening in those moments. Um, I already knew that the world would start saying, Oh, s find some involvement of the Iranians. The Iranians are always seem to always be involved in something. Whether they do it or don't do it, they're always in it.

And I was comfortable also because I had been there before, I need to say that. But when I landed in Tehran, I was nervous because I was like, well I look I'm Westerner, I clearly look Westerner. What's next?

And the moment I landed and I arrived at the border control it was like, Oh my God, ma'am, we are so sorry for what happened Which was the difference the time before when I landed, it was like welcome to Iran, welcome to Iran which was always weird because in our in our mentality, especially it was nineteen ninety nine, two thousand It's like Iran is is the axis of evil, uh you know, there's it's it's And uh so already the welcome was weird.

And now this time it's like, My God, we are so sorry for what happened. So I started going out in the streets and again I had an assignment from La Repubblica, which is the newspaper I was a forecor correspondent for for a long time. and I had to uh run down, figure out what the it was the l study, the last uh example of nomads that existed in that part of the world. So I already had someone who would take me in the middle of nowhere.

And you know, you don't know where nomads are, so you have to find them and run after them and figure out from fireplaces. They were here yesterday, the day before yesterday. It's a f it was a fascinating topic. So the Kashkai's and the Bhaktiaris and they hate each other. So it was a whole thing about internally run and uh

And I still wanted to do that also because had I said I wanna then report about what's happening, I probably would not have got into the country. So I I snuck in. And um but then my focus, my main focus was let's see what actually is happening on the Yeah, and so you you you you gotta shift your reportage in the in the moment. Yeah. And and what did I mean what did you what did you find? I found zero American flags being burnt. Zero.

I found people who in the streets would stop me and say, Oh my God, we're so sorry. Are you American? We're so sorry and they all said, Somehow we will get the blame. Although it when then they figured out it was Saudi and Egypt, uh and it was like, well somehow Iran will get some sort of a blame. And uh and again I couldn't find a single nobody was angry, nobody everyone was

Horrified of what had happened. So I went then to the stadium for a soccer game because I like to when I report on countries not just meet the people who in brackets count. I wanna see how the people react on the streets because that is the real deal. Um and they observed a minute of silence.

I had never heard anything like that before. Okay. Yeah. To commemorate the deaths that took place in in the US. So that was heartwarming and shocking, in a good way shocking. So I wrote about it and I'm saying, no burnt flags. This is what I'm seeing. Yeah. And you mentioned that you had traveled a lot before. I mean, you yeah, i in your book people will see you have you have a wanderlust uh from a young age and you you

have a propensity to go into difficult circumstances and and so y you you're not a stranger even to this part of the world. Um and And but like you said, going in, I mean, even you had these preconceived notions about what you would find. And w and I think as our uh discussion goes on, I mean, w there th we're gonna find there is no There's not much black and white. Um uh in this

Okay, so so this happens. You've you've been a tr a travel writer, you're you're writing for the newspaper and and then I was gonna cut, if it makes sense, to two thousand three, which is you've all you you people should also know, I mean, you had experience in your teenage years working with ambulances, like Yeah. I was a volunteer with the Red Cross. I was working on ambulances. And you'd have these ties to the Red Cross. Yes. And so so two thousand three comes चर्जब्रॉश

Zap on a aircraft carrier. It says mission accomplished. Yeah. And so it's right around that time that I think then now you're going to Iraq and and you're joining up with the Red Cross, I believe. Yeah. Yeah, in the meantime I I wanna I became a Red Cross international delegate. Because Iran kind of unleashed something inside me where it was I still believe being a journalist is the nicest job that one can have. I would be the eyes of who is not lucky enough. Yeah.

But I need to be the eyes. I you know, if then what I see, you still need to publish what's happening. And I started figuring out that journalism was kind of transitioning. It was no longer it was like well you need to say what we want you to say. And um so maybe with a bit of presumption I just said, you know what, I'm quitting. This is not what I want to do. I'll freelance.

Now I am not really good at selling myself. That's a problem, isn't it? Yes. Freelancing was excruciatingly hard for me, you know, to go to dinners and pitch an idea and if they say no, you have to insist. I'm used to if they say no I just walk out. It it's uh so then I decided I'll just try another career path and I won this competition with International Red Cross Engineer and became an international Red Cross delegate.

And on June sixth I get this call, two thousand and three. I get this call and saying, listen, we're looking for someone to set up a field hospital in downtown Baghdad. We're thinking about you. Yeah. And so like at this point the Americans are supposed to be kinda like pulling back or or no? I mean they're they're sort of setting up. No, Americans are uh there and it's full fledged still, you know, chaos. Yeah. Actually I think we or the coalition uh thought that

Mission accomplished, we'll hand over to the Iraqis, they will figure it out. Sort of like World War Two. You know, we go there and uh they'll do it themselves. Yeah. And that's not what happened. The Iraqis, you know, country people who are under dictatorships forever. They can't figure it out. And it's not because they're dumb. It's like they have never done it before, so they need coaching. They need help. Now the Red Cross was a burnt unit.

Uh and you know, bad burns was a huge issue, not from bombs and things, but from cooking with kerosene. I read about this in the book. I mean yeah, tell us so so women there were cooking with these these synthetic with synthetic cloth clothes. Fabrics and then with kerosene, which is highly inflammable. and they catch fire, these fibers catch fire and they burn. Was that I was that uh somehow Okay. It's the cheapest way to to be able to cook. So yeah, I mean there's like

right from the get go, uh there's these harrowing stories in your book about these these women with the clothes fused to their bodies. And often the kids are with them in the kitchen so they catch fire too. So It was maybe one of the most horrifying experience that I've ever had. I still remember when I entered the the field hospital that we had to set up and I saw this line of people outside.

I thought, Maybe this time, Anna, you have overdone it. But I do not like to go home with my tails between my leg and I say, Well, it's done. The the f I came in on an old Russian Iluushin. I'm here, let's figure it out. And did you have a sense of

Going into this, how long you would be there? I thought I would stay there for a couple of months. Okay. And y to set up this field hospital. And there was also a the journalist in me who was like, This is also the best way to figure out what is actually happening here because If you're embedded with the US military you'll get one vision. If you run around you know, so it's it was for me also the best way to potentially when I went back to Italy report.

And so what ha w what ends up dragging you um in longer and longer?

You know, what ended up dragging me at first it was okay, it's not done in a couple of months, you need to stay a little bit longer and then when I figured out we had to then move it was dangerous out there, so eventually I decided we need to move under a a structure. So that we don't get rocket we you know, we're under tents. And it was you know, for a few months it's fine, but then when the war is in brackets over, it's no longer fine. So once I did that shift and worked a lot with the Iraqis

And clearly went along with the Iraqis. Um I was invited at the Italian embassy for my farewell party. Which I discovered was not a farewell party. It was a job offer from the US administration. Okay. And the job offer was, okay, we need to rebuild the health system in Iraq. We have seen you in action. And you are accomplishing things that we ha I have no idea how you may Could you please come and help me?

And this if I'm i I could be getting my timelines wrong, but this is coming from David Petraeus. David Petraeus was after that's later. From the senior advisor this came from uh you know Ambassador Bremer and his senior advisor, uh Jim Haveman. And um I couldn't believe it. I was on my first but I'm not American. I can't work for the American government if I'm not American. They had already set it all up. They had already asked the Italians, you know, to pay for my checks.

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not really taking sides. I mean, you're working for the Americans ostensibly or the Red Cross, but you're you're kinda helping whoever needs to be helped. You're trying to find um some I guess peace isn't the right word, but some some dialogue between both sides so people trust you, let you do the job you need to do. So even in these these first few months. I guess these these traits of yours obviously were standing out to word was getting around

get there and I mean clearly I think at that point, you know, the Americans I did not have the best reputation. Um I mean where where were you mentally on were you still at this point where there is no black and white or w were you going in Like when the Americans come to ask you to help, are you like Okay. Um, you know what? There's a point where you can keep on pointing fingers. But that doesn't achieve anything. I mean I can keep on saying America should have never invaded Iraq.

There's a mess. Someone needs to help. Everyone should you know, we whoever can should pitch in. And if they believe that I'm the right person, and after a few months there, I actually started believing too. I actually this is kind of my comfort zone. Interestingly, it was my comfort zone. I got along with the Americans, I got along with the Iraqis. Again, not taking sides. At that point it's no longer taking sides. It's just helping whoever needs help.

Were this Iraqis, and in this case it was the Americans. To their credit, admitting that they're not getting it right is huge. You know, I you know, I'm Italian and I'm proud Italian, but an Italian government would have never hired someone from America, but not because it's America or from someone from Uzbekistan or from Portugal to work to rebuild they would only hire Italians, probably someone who's part of a the political group who is in charge.

America didn't care. I mean, James Haveman and the whole team knew that I was against the invasions, and we had bunch of I would really say heated discussions, sometimes even intellectually stimulating, sometimes not intellectually stimulating. But that did not affect my job and didn't affect what they thought of me, nor what uh I thought of them.

Yeah. Yeah. So d in in w okay, so this is still two thousand three. Two thousand three. And now you're being put in charge of of trying to set up this health infrastructure. Yep. And and so w what is your what is your day to day Why are you in y you in Baghdad? I'm in Baghdad. Okay. I I I was actually in Baghdad from two or three to uh summer, autumn two or six. Okay. And I One of the reasons why I accepted was the fact that the health team went out into Baghdad every day.

So they truly believed. Now whether they or we made a difference, that's for the others to say. But we truly believed in what we were doing. Because I remember back then I mean uh you would always hear about the the green zone this this safety place where the American troops would be. So you are you're living with I am living in the green zone. With American troops. With American troops and also American civilians.

Inside of what? Like what you have like a room in Saddam's palace? And then my office was On the second floor or first floor, depending if you're Italian or American. of uh Saddam's palace. You describe it a bit in the book and we've all seen pictures, but yeah, can you can you tell us what Saddam's palace looks like? You just you know, there is I still remember bathrooms everywhere. And with you know golden uh False hits. Yeah.

And uh this is a kinda funny story. B days and Americans were like what what what what What is this obsession of Iraqi is with Bidet? Yeah. And then being Italian there was you know, w how do you use those? Google it and tell it me. But it was uh so there was one part of Saddam's palace that was reserved for high level military and the other one was for the high level civilians and there was, you know, double doors guarded by Marines and

It was it was like being in a in a movie. You know, there was Saddam's throne, Um so it was uh then you get used to it. Like everything in life it becomes routine. What was the weirdest thing in Saddam's palace that you remember? I I just think, you know, the oh, in in the in the hall that we used to go, you know, the dining facility there was this massive you know, painting of a clear attack upon the US.

With rockets. And they you know, it was up there and I don't know. I think it was it was again the symbol of Saddam Hussein. I think also to remind uh who he he was. Um there was the the busts of Saddam Hussein were on the top of uh the presidential palace. I remember when they took them down. And I also remember when there were American soldiers urinating on Saddam Hussein, which I thought

was not understanding that this guy was not a knucklehead. Yes, this guy was a monster. I actually met him. Um this guy was smart. Yeah. He stayed in power against all odds for decades. He was not dumb. He was he was very intelligent. Now, one would prefer intelligence to divert it into other areas rather than murdering your own people if they disagree. Yeah. Um

But it was uh you know, it was i all in all it was a very interesting experience for me. Also, I'm civilian, I'm Italian, and I'm a woman. I stood out like there's no tomorrow. I mean if people aren't watching, you've got you've got blonde hair, you're you're yeah, you you look Italian. I did not wear combat boots on purpose. I mean We all have roles and my role is not to pretend that I am Rambo. I am a civilian, I'm rebuilding trying to rebuild the country.

Um but to be surrounded by military people and you know, when my room eventually got blown up, stay with them, live with them, I I specifically when the senior advisor Haveman gave me office space in his office. Well that was the elite office. It was all s you know, four or five civilians. And I was like, No, I need to be with them and then was the military. Yeah. Because they need

to respect me. They need to understand who I am. Not again, not because you're dumb, but it's kind of weird to see have an Italian disembark and say, what on earth is this one doing?

So okay, so like in the mornings you're going out with these this military personnel and they're escorting you to to health to the Ministry of Health. Okay. Every day. And they had been attacks on the team. I still remember, you know, we didn't have private security yet and it was the health team providing for its own security and most of them were um reserve military in the reserves. So not h full fledged military. You know, I I know how to drive. Again.

from where I come from, you better know how to drive. And I never had done stick shift before. And in Baghdad no one does. It was all you know they do gear. R so you the Americans were used to automatic cars. Automatic cars. But you you had to do manual. And Iraq has only manual cars. And I hadn't realized that Americans do not know how to drive manual. So I kept sitting with these Rambo. with, you know, guns on their laps and the driver with a gun and looking out and in full battle rattle.

And it was a constant up and down and up and down and I was like Jesus, I hope I hope they shoot better than they drive. Because this is awful. And that's where I figured they just don't know how to use the clutch. Yeah. And at the end of the day I I went up to Colonel Goreber, who was in charge of, you know, the operations, and I said, You know what, Colonel? Maybe I should drive.

And he looked at me and said, Really, Anna? And I was like, Yes, first of all I know how to deal with chaos because Baghdad is chaos and I'm used to chaos and second I know how to drive. So then I became the official driver. looking in the way I look of the whole, you know, convoy of people who are going to the Ministry of Health. What are the people on the street too when you're driving? They must have been, right? I mean you've got all these dunes with guns in the back and there's this

Blonde drive around Yeah. Um amazing. And so okay, and then and like I would imagine every day was probably quite different. So maybe there isn't m you know, something really to grab onto for what

A normal day looks like. But I I can't even wrap my head around you're trying to add some sort of order and infrastructure in the middle of chaos. How do you w what did you do on a daily basis to even there was an interim, you know, Iraqi minister. So interact with h him and his staff.

To you know, th what I always did and also later in my life, you already need to think about how do we make them walk on their own. So yes we can rebuild the whole ministry for them, which we did because it had been completely looted. Um, but then how how is this going to be sustainable in the r long run? How how do they understand a health system? What medicines are there on the ground? What are not? What do we need to bring in?

So figuring out what are the priorities. Uh one thing that the Iraqis were completely unable of doing, and again, not because they were dumb, but because they had never done it before, priority. If you ask a minister, or a later in my life a governor, what are your priorities, they don't know.

And they come up and I'll s we'll speak about it more with the most extravagant ideas where you're like, Yes, but what about electricity? I mean, you want a floating restaurant in the middle of the marshes But you don't have electricity, you don't have running water and then they're like, Yes, but I saw a movie about Venice last night. And if I build things correctly the marshes c look like Venice and true tourism comes. And you're like

You're shooting still at people. Yeah, and this this is mostly kind of like Iraqis shooting at each at each at each other and and and the US. Yes. But it was also a lot of again, we always focused on how many Americans lost their lives or how many Italians got killed.

Uh it was at a certain point in two thousand four or so it became a civil war. It was Iraqis on Iraqis. And uh you know, because w we I and I say we I didn't, but we made the mistake of disempowering the ones who had been in charge until then. So uh taking power out of the Sundis, who were the only ones who could run a country. Right or wrong, we disempowered them.

And we gave power to others who had never had a role, had been massacred throughout decades, and were even afraid of airing their opinions. At the beginning I was like, Well what do you think of this? And you could see them all were like what do you think? Well it's not really important what I think, it what you think so that I can build upon what you think and your priorities are. They were not capable, they were so afraid.

Of coming up. They and the brain was not trained. You know, Saddam Hussein had just flattened. You were not allowed to think with your own brain. Right. Well they did not know how to think with their own brains. Okay. And that was something that I discovered which was fascinating. It's it was it's a muscle. You need to train it and you need to gain confidence. You need to also trust your interlocutor. Trust is the key word here and that is something that the Western world often forget.

We tend to go in a place and it's not just about Iraq and we'll speak later about my experience with Google and it takes time to build trust. You can't just parachute or be parachuted in the country and say, Oh, here I am and this is how it's done. No, you gotta build a rapport and then slowly together you do

So I spent a lot of time sitting down with the Iraqis at every level just to figure out what what how can we actually rebuild this this system. And then there was the issue with the internally displaced people. And that came up after a couple of years that I was there. And that is where my experience also as a journalist came in, because as a journalist I knew that usually Arabic cultures go prefer to go to family members rather than into internally displaced camps if they have the possibility.

And and all of a sudden the international community is donat a hell of a lot of money to the the Red Cross Crescent. Telling us stories about thousands of people and we don't have enough equipment, we don't have enough tents, etc. etc. And no one went out to check, because by then it was also it was civil war. No one did go out. So I decided if we really want to know what's happening, we need to have eyes on there. And that's where I you know, I went out on Blackhawks with the military.

I must have been s you know, in the middle of nowhere, whether it was Fallujah or Kerbala, because that's where they claimed all the displaced people were. And so I would hey Perception, which is not a perception, is true. Soldier are allowed to die. God forbid if something happens to a civilian. Hell is unleashed. And my point was always I signed up for this.

I need to be as exposed as anyone as a soldier. It's my job is to rebuild and if to rebuild I need to go out to the Ministry of Health or I need to go out to IDP camps. That's what I have to do. I can't just sit back and trust reports who usually come in from people who yes, they do take pictures and who knows where those pictures are taken. Hello geniuses.

Let me tell you about E1 Ventures. They are a venture capital firm in Silicon Valley, a longtime supporter of this podcast and a longtime supporter of big, fantastic, world-changing ideas. If you have such an idea, hit up e1 ventures or send me a note and I'll put you in touch with e1 ventures. It's uh it's quite a quite a deal for listening to this podcast. Um, thank you again, as always, to UN Ventures for their support.

I don't want this to be uh sensationalistic. I mean th there's some Incredible moments you go through. So I'm not doing this as kind of like disaster porn or or life risking porn. I want people to have a sense of the stakes of what you're talking about that you you went through. So uh and I know you write about it so I feel I feel like it's okay to ask about so I mean'cause there's Absolut it's quite difficult stuff. Um I mean some of'em Very difficult.

lighter in with with time or or something. I mean, there's you you wrote about this one incident where um Saddam's sons are I I'm trying to remember that. I mean they're captured and they're they were captured and killed right there. And and and so and the people are celebrating. And I mean tell me tell me the story. Well I at that point I was still kind of cut out from the world. I'm you you need to imagine Baghdad, the summer heat.

And uh dancing. This is this is mid two thousand three. Yeah, yeah. And and uh And we don't have there's no cell phones. Thoraya satellite phones. You had to point the antenna towards Mecca to figure out if you could get a signal or not. So we're cut out, we're just dealing with a constant drama, night and day. You know, during the day it was a bird unit, at night it was a

take out bullets out of people's bodies because that people who could couldn't go into hospitals because they would have got arrested or got in trouble would come to us. And being superpartists, we just took care of everyone. And so you need to imagine this chaos where you you're you know, and you're in the middle of town. Yes you have Twoles and barbed wire and we had the the carabineris which were the equivalent of the marines guarding us, but that's it.

And so all of a sudden w one afternoon we s I started we started all hearing shooting, like but not a couple of shots, like massive shooting. And I was like, okay, they're attacking. Which is something that I remember the UN told us you'll eventually get attacked. Interestingly, the UN got attacked a few months later, and we hadn't got attacked, you get attacked. So I it was in my mind, oh my god, and this was on my shoulders. I was taking the decision.

So immediately the first the first thing is like we need to r take cover and the first thing you run into the tent. This is it's like a field hospital. It's a field hospital. And there's the carabineris on the loudspeaker say do not run in the tents because then you'll get a bullet and some plast plastic in your not only the bullet. So it's like dangerous. Do not. So go under the truck.

So we had to all run on the trucks and everyone was like and it got worse and worse. You could hear screaming, you could hear the gunfire was worse and you started hearing the bullets. Because bullets c w were flying in.

So then they were all like call the ambassador, figure out what tell them to come and rescue us. Yeah. And so I try to call, nothing happens, and finally I managed to get hold of an Iraqi who's a friend of mine and say I say they're attacking us. Could you please help? But while I'm on the phone I hear from the phone I hear gunfire. And I was like, but it seems like you're being attacked. What's going on?

And he's like, Oh no, Doctora, it's friendly fi it's celebratory fire. We're celebrating the killing of Udai and Kusai. So everybody shooting their guns. And everyone's shooting and and i it was it seemed like a full fledged

Yeah. And then and then not too long after that if my notes are right. Still in two thousand three, um, you have this this ambush directly on you. Um I was reading about this in the book. I mean i the W it's it's I mean, please tell the story. It sounded like your your bodyguard kinda sold you sold you out. Yeah.

Well and that was right at the beginning. I remember it was in September, the October. Uh right at the beginning when I had moved away from the Red Cross and started working with the US. And um I had to go and that's where things had started also getting worse.

the words started coming out, civil war, civil war. No one pronounced it and to me it was like, Why aren't we discussing this? Because this is this is bad. More and more civilians stopped going out into the red zone and we kept on going out in the red zone. And um I had to go to medical city. I was at the Ministry of Health and had to go to medical city.

And um again, we're Westerners, we're always in a rush. And I had, you know, waited a day, two days, three days, and I said, Well, we really need to go. And so they set up a mission for me. At that point we the message was still we trust the Iraqis, so we'll give Anna a Iraqi bodyguard.

How on earth they picked them, who knows? Because you know you make an interview and you do not know what allegiances they have. And so I get into this uh pickup and uh I have my good friend from the Red Cross that I had brought over, Ahmed, who is driving. an Iraqi medical doctor, a lady was the passenger in the back. There was another one, a doctor. And between me and the doctor in the back was this Iraqi bodyguard. And I still remember he was s sitting

And he had his Kalashnikov between his legs and he was he was nervous. And I remember saying, Oh my god, if he's that nervous, how nervous should we be? And I we pulled jokes and um so eventually we we took off and uh when we arrived at Medical City I saw an opening, a parking space. Opened. And uh and I tap on the shoulder of Ahmed and say, Hey, you know Italian Park, Park, you want some help, you know? And that's where the bodyguard got out.

We stopped and the body bougarde climbed out of the car, climbed over the doctor, and I said, Well maybe he's not as weird as I thought. I thought he's trying to help us park. That's not what he was doing. Now I did not know what he was doing. I figured it out. They told me after But the next thing I know uh it is a full fledged gunfire. So he turns on you. He got out, got behind the car, and from I would say half a meter.

unloaded his on all the the four on me because uh because the shots then were were against my head. And I heard a click. You know, you can call it luck, you can call it fate, you can call it God. We all call it in a different way. But it's clear that it was not in my cards to die.

that day. But you're sitting in the car, he's behind you. He's behind me. And you're his target. And I'm his target. And he un he starts unloading and you hear this this click makes you duck. D you just had this instinct. I had this instinct. Yeah. I duck down. And I remember apologizing with my family.

Like in that moment. In that moment. I was especially with my dad who had always been worried about my extravagant. We'll talk about the blob later. And you know, and and there I was like, Oh god, I'm I'm dying. Yeah. This is it. And I and then I thought, How did they know that we were coming? Because this was a last minute mission and I thought these are snipers on this side because the shots I knew that much. They're on my side.

And so it's snipers on this side who are waiting for us and just waited for us to park and started shooting. But it was the bodyguard. It was the bodyguard. Yeah. And then why did he want to kill you? Listen, I even understand why. Here comes the invader. Now again I want to point out it's not all most Iraqis welcomed the American invasion because most of them were Shia.

the minority was Sunni and they were the elite. So they of course were against it. A lot fled. A lot joined the Islamic State later in life. But the the Sheah were like hallelujah, we're liberated, we are now in charge. Um but this guy, who knows who he was, who knows And I am a woman. I look the way I look. I was in charge in the car. I was also being very warm. with Ahmed. I was European. I was American. I was uh and he I'm sure he thought I was American. Doesn't matter. I was

it was something that he didn't want in his country most likely. And you know what I learned is um we need to stop judging people who I don't need to stop judging, but often people who are violent are violent because they have only known violence in life. And I I learned it throughout the years. It With you have never learned compassion, you have never learnt love, you have never learnt trust, you don't you solve your problems, I disagree with you, bang, you're dead.

It was there's no debate, there's no so I could also understand why the guy wanted me dead. Now on the way there he killed every one in the car, So you yeah, you you duck and then you get out of the car. I d I duck and I figure out that they're all dead because then I I have to climb over my dead friend body.

And there's chaos around the car and I don't under I I'm like, oh my god, everyone's screaming and I'm like, Oh god, I don't wanna be lynxed. I mean I you know, to be to die because they beat the hell out of me, please not. So I d run into a house and in Baghdad at that time all the wo doors are open to let the the air flow and, you know,

I I I watch probably too many movies and I ran into a corner because I you know, at least in the corner your shoulders are you know something behind you behind you and I'll I'll s I'll scrutinize what's in front of me. And I'll wait for the Marines to to come and save me. So my ultimate is like, Where are the Marines? Where are the Marines? And that's when you realise, no, this is not a movie. I mean time that anyone knows that this is happening on the streets and I'll be dead.

So I need to figure this out on my own. And instead of the Marines I have a bunch of women in black charterers come in and do the classic shouting. You're in somebody's house in the world. I'm in somebody's house in a corner with a bunch of dead people out. And and so th the lady comes in with all her friends, I guess, and they start it's panic. So they scream, they do the panic, scream

Yeah. And I'm like, oh God, now the snipers because I still think about the snipers. The snipers will know that I'm here. And then I'm saying, Okay, I am not getting sh shot at while staring at the person who's shooting at me. If they go if I'm getting killed today, I'm running for survival. And that's where I got out of the house. And at that point they were beating the hell out of someone, right behind the car. Of course I didn't stop and check and I'm like, Oh my God, what's going on here?

And I managed to I got and I thought if I run away looking the way I look, uh it w it won't uh it won't be a long run for me. Yeah. So I thought the only way to get out of here is in the same car. And Ahmed was the driver and I I still wonder how I could be so cold blooded. He was dead. I pulled him off the car, left him on the on the road. So you're like sitting in a pool of blood of your friends and then you have to

Two dead bodies. Try to drive back to the grid zone with the while you're pumping full of adrenaline and shock and checking if the snipers from the rear mirror if the snipers are following. And like no

cheap no real idea of uh how you're gonna get to where you're yeah you're going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it must be I mean uh d y you write about it in the book a bit, but So you were able to be clear headed in the I was extremely clear headed. No and I had no training. I don't think you can really of course you can train but there's you r everyone reacts in different ways to and I was as cold blooded as it gets. There was I was calm.

And uh it was it was shocking to me to realise how how I had reacted. And you kinda instinctually get back to the the Ministry of Health and all everybody wants to um question you about w I'm sure they wanna know what had happened, but you you're you're like, Look, I need I need a specs. Yeah.

And it was also then they wanted to you know, f I had then to drive from the Ministry of Health to the green zone in the afternoon. And so they had set up a new car for me and I was like, nah nah If I didn't die in this car today? I but I'm not supposed to die in this car today, so I insisted that I drive in the same vehicle that I had been shot at. And what was

shocking was uh when I went back into the garage, you know, the truck from the morgue had already arrived, had taken away my two friends, and uh the gardener was already hosing down the car. So To me it was if s I had died or some one of us had died it would have been a huge drama. And now two Iraqis die.

normal. Yeah. And it was it was mainly the Iraqis. Like, hops let's talk, let's go to the morgue and uh let's move on. They were so used to and it wasn't because of the invasion. They were just so used to the concept of death. That there was like, Oh, let's just hose it down, prepare the car for Rana and let's get going. So this is just a few months into your new job. Are are you s certainly at this point you must be like, Okay, maybe maybe now that's enough.

No, I again I a lot uh especially in the group that I was was all military guys, they all thought this one won't make it. the same day I went out, because I had seen people f for way less decide to go home, which, by the way, is fine. It's not if you do not feel like it, it's not a like uh uh you don't make a s hero statement. Actually you're dumb if you stay, if you're scared.

So I said I'll need to see I need to if I wanna have a chance to get out again I need to get out immediately and see what hap And um that evening I had an invitation of at the Italian ambassador's house. And the carabineries came and picked me up. And that's where I also learned that there was a journalist at the place. And I was like, No, I am not. Speaking about this. This needs to stay in house. And it's interesting how it took me years actually to. Speak about.

and to write about it because er i when you write about it i it goes even deeper in the bones. And uh there were a lot of people who wanted me to tell the story and I I I s I just started sweating and I just decided I I won't tell the story. Yeah,'cause we went kinda quick, but I mean Ahmed is uh he was a friend of yours. Very good friend of mine. Yeah, dear friend.

And and also from there, you know, before I heard the gunfires, I heard and at night when they went off because it was, you know, people who had to kill their neighbor who had pissed them off for decades or who knows what. And uh Then I started when I started hearing gunfires, I started panicking because I would relive the moment. That's where you know, I was forced to go through

But this thing of those trying to try to try to crack you open. You r you're resistant. Um yeah. Okay, I mean there's there's honestly th there's so many incidents it's it's hard to even know which ones to pick. I mean, in the middle of this I I'm not gonna spend a ton of time on this'cause I want the ones where you're you're Directly in it.

you know for its subject wasn't it's a lot of it's like so they just decided let's just hit the hotel with a bunch of rockets and of course one hit my room. And the night before I had decided to go and check on the State of the clinics in prisoned. And I I I said, let's start with Kurdish Iraq, which is the comma part. So I just jumped on a flight and went to Kurdish Iraq with no there was no task. It was just like I'm going. Yeah.

Destiny. Yeah. Do you end up staying back in that hotel? No, it was blown up. So we had to when I and then it was another you know, when I came back we were all put into e everyone went to what we call the chapel, which was in inside the the palace, a huge room that was used as a chapel. And being a woman and being very few women, um they reserved like a special treatment the women could get a trailer. And by then I had uh I've always been a team player.

I thought, you know, if my whole team is in the chapel and stays up at night because they can't sleep, because there's hundreds of people in there. I'm with them. You're sleeping like a what on a on a side. We were sleeping, they put bunk beds everywhere. We're talking about hundreds of people in bunk beds. And that's where you slept. And that's where I slept for quite a long time. Yeah. And I still remember I like bunk beds, I like to be on top.

But then I realized being a woman, if I want to have a little bit of privacy when I change my shirt. I'd better be on the bottom and put towels all over so that I can have those you know, twenty seconds of privacy where I can change clothes without having too much attention.

You mentioned meeting Saddam. You're at his trial after he's captured. There's you talked about the celebration when his his sons were killed, but it's more muted when Saddam is captured. And and I guess intuitively you might think, Oh, well the celebration's gonna be even even bigger because because Saddam. Tell me about meeting Saddam. Tell me, you know, why

How people reacted when he was captured and and what it was like in his trial. You know, I I think we foreigners tend to categorize these dictators as like, oh, they're crazy. Um Meeting him I had heard a lot of stories about Saddam. And a lot of these stories were so gruesome. I mean, I I'm talking about, you know, Ahmed Maybe one of the worst stories I've ever heard in my life. Yeah. Like having do we want to tell it? I I I you it's up to you, but I can also s you know having

Yeah. I mean you tell me that you you tell in the book about you learn some of these stories that take place during these poker nights and and things like that. But y uh so okay, so Ahmed is a very good friend of yours. You're you're spending all this time with him and so one night

he's recounting the story of what happens to him at one of these poker games, right? Yeah. Yeah. And they were y that you couldn't you couldn't you like in every dictatorship more than three, four people cannot gather, especially after a certain time. And they knew that sooner or later You know, the Republican guards would uh hunt them down. And um One night someone knocks at the door, so they say, Okay, that's it. So one poker player gets up and decides I'll be the first one who dies in this.

And so he gets up, opens the door, and um Saddam's guys walk in, you know, all in black. And they don't shoot. They have uh Ahmed recounted this vividly, um a large yellow plastic bag. And they walk in and they set it right in front of Ahmed. And they tell him open it. So Ahmed opens it and it's pretty dark in there, so he starts putting a hand in the plastic bag and feels like there's other plastic bags in there. And he doesn't he has no idea. It's kind of mushy and

Until he bumps into something that he clearly recognises. And it's an ear. A human ear. He his sixteen year old son had been uh arrested for plotting against I mean, uh seriously, sixteen years old. thrown into jail. He hadn't seen his son in a very long time. H kept on asking, Saddam, please bring my son back, give me my son back.

And Saddam gave him his son back. And so when you listen to all these stories, you start having you start understanding the Greys. You start like, hmm, this guy was actually a monkey. Now a smart monster. So when I met him when I saw him at the trial, I've met a lot of monsters in my I will never forget those up.

He he was in charge of the rune. Although he was handcuffed, although he had the Quran. I mean he was never had been never been religious and he was commanding, still commanding the room. And um So what kind of eyes like like uh dark. Yeah. Dark. It was in Iraq they always talked about him like Satan. And you know, in spite of me being someone who's against the death penalty. They needed to kill someone. Because

He had super in the eyes of the Iraqis, he had supernatural powers and they were convinced he'll come back. And the Americans will eventually free him and he'll come back. So if I work with you, if I s do anything. He'll hunt and he's dead. Which is why when he was captured there was not celebration'cause you might be caught celebrating and then he comes back. And then he gets back to So and I made a huge mistake at the

at the at the trial. You know, in in Iraq you are not allowed to show your shoe soul. So you say, Well, of course not. Well, we Westerners always sit down in a way that, you know, we p put one leg on top of the other and and One shoe sole is pretty visible. Now if you look at me now you will notice both shoesoles are looking down. It's so engraved in me that I sit down and manage to keep both feet looking downward.

But at some point the trial went on and on and on and I got and I was on the upper floor and I just laid back and Showed my shoe soul. You crossed your legs. I crossed my legs. Yes. And they stopped the trial. The judge started screaming. Saddam was staring at me. That's where the eyes was like it's Saddam. Had this scornful look.

on him and and I you know when you would like to disappear and say, I was wrong. I I made a huge mistake. And then at the end I think they I got up, they came to get me, and they must have seen that I was sorry. I hadn't done it in any attempt to to be insulting of any culture or anything. I was just really sorry. So they eventually had me stay there. But that's where I kept on having Saddam keep on staring at me and and and uh

You know, so people who underestimate that kind of smart evil um have difficulties in understanding the world. Yeah. Is there yeah, I mean Do you think his brand of control over the people I guess it's it's probably on some level similar to other

dictators over time or w was there something really unique um he was because I you know I was I was in all these countries. I was in Libya, I was you know, and his level he's he had stepped it up a notch compared to all the other Now there's a lot of dictators in the area and w we'll get there uh uh probably, but it's also an area who understands uh strength, uh courage. uh violence. So having a leader who is n pleasant and kind and A listener who doesn't kill people.

Uh that that's not in the DNA of the people on the ground. So I remember once telling to down the road when I was in charge of the reconstruction of southern Iraq. Telling to my US State Department deputy saying Iraq didn't Iraq needed a smoother dictator. In those countries you go from there's Saddam and just a little smoother, a little smoother, a little smoother, so that people get used to it. And instead you can't go from a full fledged dictator to smoothness.

The smoothness will never survive.

With in uh we talked about this a little bit, but let's so as the years are going by, you're doing this work, eventually, just as you mentioned, you're gonna end up in the southern part of the country, um, after David Petraeus asked you to take on your next mission. Is but like as all this is playing out, I know you said it's not black and white.

Um the US was trying to do s some things apparently right. But I mean, God, I mean like as you're as you're watching the way this is getting reported around the world, um, I suppose on some level by this part, the rest of the world isn't paying as much attention as they used to and they've kind of lost interest in the story. Yeah. Um, but like what's your

What's your reaction? Uh y w what's going through your mind as to same thing, as like there is no right side, we just have to fix this thing, or was it obvious to you that some people were really fucking up and some weren't and Um or is just chaos and it was utter chaos. It was very clear that we were going around it in the wrong way. And so when Petraeus the idea of the surge came up. I didn't believe in it. I wanted to go home. I you know, it's I have never had a death wish. I stayed there

Not because I get my adrenaline from getting blown up or shot at. I get my adrenaline from thinking creatively. Let's let's figure this out. Let's figure this out. And after a couple of years I was like, there's nothing. We civilians need to get out of the way. Because they you know, I the ones who stayed were all locked up in the green zone. So I I'm not one of those. I don't wanna stay locked up. And if I keep on going out, I'll get killed.

And it's not my country. So I I I might you know, now I'm also American. I'm happy to get killed for either Italy or America. But Iraq is not my country. So I was like, I'm out. This is it. And when I first was offered the job, I declined. And it was a huge honor. So this is a couple of years later. It's kinda like oh five. Two thousand six. Two thousand six. So like three years. And so okay, so you've kind of had enough.

Yeah. And and and you're ready to go and then and then Petraeus comes and he's heard about your skills. So you're you're like a victim of your own success in in a lot of ways. And and he's he's saying Um, so it's the southern part of Iraq, I mean, and I learned all this from your book, so please correct me. I mean, i i it's it's controlled by Iran to some degree at at this moment in time. So there's like a whole bunch of extra complexity. Yeah.

And the US knows that it's pretty much sucked at like doing the kind of um the kind of on the ground work you would need to do to build trust, to to sort of maneuver and you've developed this reputation as someone who's uniquely good at these types of things. And so Petraeus is coming and saying

Can you come add some what? Some order to Southern Iraq. No, it was um you know, the surge. Everyone thinks it's a surge of troops. Yeah. Yeah, there was a surge of troops, but it was also a surge of creative ideas. And that's where I got picked. Okay. It's like we need to start thinking creatively because if we keep on building the brick and mortar, okay, you need a hospital, oh we'll build it for you. We're not going anywhere. They're just using us.

you know, for our money. But we're not creating a society that will eventually change in the right direction. But to do that you need to I had no idea. I still remember I was on these flights and I I had these bullet points. You need to tap into rule of law I mean, go out there and say, Oh please could you just chill out torturing people? I mean I had absolut it was such an abstract

Concept. It's like, where do I even start? And then agriculture. I say, well, agriculture, I can figure something out there. And uh interestingly, there was no health on. And I was like, You're talking about the hearts and minds. I am not gaining the people's hearts and minds if I am tapping into rule of law right away. I need to figure out a way on how to get the population to like me. And then the population will probably also take care of me.

Which is then what actually happened. Now this is not a thing that happens in one day or two. Um, I at first said no, I don't believe in any effort anymore. We need to get out and you do whatever sort you're doing, but I'm out and I might come back when you figure this this shit out. And then I was convinced, okay Do it and then and I said figure out find someone who can do it. I'll I'll set it up. I'm good with setting up teams, I'll set up the team. But also my main point was uh I'm a woman.

And you're sending me in Deep Shia land, where they're all voting for Muqtad al Sadr, who is the famous clergy that we all know who had started the Sadrist movement and in the hands of Iran Women, you know, in Baghdad went a lot without scarf. If they did they had one. A few in some parts of the town had the black gown. In the south they all had the whole battle rattle black thing. Uh so it was like you need a man because a woman m won't manage to get where you need

the team lead to go. Right. So it's like a impossible situation to begin with, plus Yeah W with all this extra baggage. Impossible baggage on top of it. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I said, I'll do it a couple of months and then you figure figure out who else can take over and then I w I wanna go home. Yeah. And um And that's where I started seeing how things started working. It took a while, but just the fact that I could pick my team

and uh you know and and you know, do things the way I wanted to do them. And I did stuff that was frankly quite dangerous, you know, and uh Reach out the way I want to reach out. Um what does that mean? I mean uh to paint effects. Like what are your techniques? trusted advisor to the man who is in charge. And the man who is in charge is Philo Iranian. He fled.

uh during Saddam's time, the South, and fled to Iran. Like a lot of people know about how much the Kurds uh what the Kurds went through mm caused by Saddam. Not a lot of people know that The marshes used to be called the Garden of Eden. when I was there and still nowadays c slowly coming back but whereas desert. In the it's in in Southern Iraq. Southern Iraq. Okay. Because Saddam Hussein, the the marshland Arabs had um rioted against Saddam Hussein. And um

President Bush had promised air support um if they did so. For some reason that air support did not take place. So Saddam crashed. the riot and not only he wasn't happy to just kill the guys who had, but he decided I'm just exterminating the entire population. and to do so, they have to stop being able to hide in the marshes, behind the reeds. So he d uh he had his engineers divert the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers.

And made the marshes a complete desert. Wow, okay. So that he could spot people and kill them. So your option was either I stay here and get killed or I run to Iran. And the governor of the southern province that I had been appointed to was one of those who ran to Iran. So he hated Iraqis and he he hated Saddam Hussein with a vengeance.

Now but then when Saddam was toppled, his second priority was America. And no one had ever met him before. He refused to meet with Americans. And what I was seeing was the civil affairs people, American, were doing a great job. But they were try to w they were catering And I was like, We're w well, that's with again with US taxpayers' money. You you're building something which has no future because there's no doctors, there's no nurses, there's nothing.

So I I had this uh the the the luck also that the you know Petraeus and his team said no no project will get implemented unless Anapraos signs on it. So I get the whole list of projects and I the first one I say this needs to be cancelled is the hospital. And I remember that You're like a personal doge. Yeah. Yeah.

And so the Americans like he'll kill you. Yeah. And I knew it. I said I will. But I need to start I'm not down here. I haven't not been frankly a huge honor, because I take it very seriously, to be in charge of rebuilding something and then I don't do something which is frankly the right thing to do. Yeah. And so I had I met with the governor. Sorry, that was a terrible joke.

I met with the governor. They were the old military was there because they had never met him before and uh you know, they they were scared. It was like this one and the governor could not believe that I I just stood up and said, I will build it for you, but after we trained a bunch of people. And he's like Yeah, you're trying to carry favour with this guy but you're being tough. I'm not yeah I'm tough. And uh he he marched out, slammed the door

And he was he looked like he was a s you know, everyone he looked like Saddam, miniature Saddam, the black moustache, the Kalashnikov, the black dyed hair and he he he played the role really well. And um And so either you know, a couple of days later he invited me at a ribbon cutting ceremony of one of the gazillion.

Schools we were building for him, and we were never allowed to go to ribbon cuttings. This time he invites me, but it's in it's in Sukashuk, which is was one of the most dangerous places in the world. And I hadn't no military had even leaved to Sucusyuk. And they tell me you gotta go, and I'm saying I'm not going. And so at that point there was also the Australians were also present in southern Iraq. So there were the Italians, Australians, the Romanians and the Italians had actually pulled out.

And uh so I go in this huge convoy, half American and half Australian, with them telling me they won't know in which If you are in a w which Humvee or which, you know, MRAP you're in. And that's again underestimating the people on the other side. Of course they have people on base who watch. And of course they knew in which convoy I went in, so when I entered Sukashio, bam. Your your car was hit with an ID. My car was hit by an ID. I um can't hear from in ear thanks to Governor Aziz al one.

Never made it to the ribbon cutting, made it to the hospital. Um and a couple days later he calls me. He has his man call me to invite me for um hunting trip. It was Friday was coming up. Actually it was the next day was Friday and he said, I would I'm going hunting. Do you want to come with me? And you're you know that he's just trying to kill you. And yeah. Yeah. And I say yes. And I think that's a good thing.

He they stopped there because they they expected to know. So as to probably blame it all they don't have the courage that's needed, they don't have and I said yes. And then they're like, Okay, tell me where and when.

And that's why it's like, well I need to go I need to call you back later because they were just being you know, being aggressive as they are always. And I set up a whole plan without involving direct the military because they could not the he also made it clear you're coming alone, you're not coming with that whole convoy and everything. So I walked out of a military base in a black chador, no one knowing that he was on a press.

And you like drove yourself or you picked me up with his man. Okay. Took me in out there. Um and I w had no idea whether he w it was just uh finishing the job mission or testing me. And when he took out the rifle from the booth of his car and he pointed it at me, knowing exactly he was he was the cat playing with the mouth. Then I just stood up and looked at him and then he said Let's let's go, let's go, I'll teach you how to shoot.

And of course we it was wild boar hunting. We didn't even see a wild boar got even close. I mean there was nothing happening. And then he said, Okay, it's time for lunch and that's where I see a bunch of pickup trucks come from the desert. And I was like, Okay now maybe he's having someone else do the dirty job for him and that was his private military. And they laid out uh, you know, blankets on the floor and pillows and a sumptuous

It's very nice. Lunch and I sat there for a couple of hours. And that's where he started trusting me. He told me about himself things that no one knew about. That's how I got into his graces. Yeah. So I I mean oh You do a lot of things I would not do. Um, I actually wish I had some of the as a reporter, some of the courage to do many of the things you did. Um but like in that I mean you talked about it a bit, but it's like

I mean, do you really like why would you did you y did you care about Iraq that much at that point that you're I guess. I think more than Iraq. Because I thought about it a long time, because it's uh it's the values that we brought to the tables table. And I had by then seen that it maybe was not a mission impossible. But you bring values to the table not by talking about values. You have to show Okay. So there was I always thought

I need to be out there with them. I need to show the friendly face of the Western world. Because They right now are used to seeing soldiers in full battle rattle, the same way soldiers are used to seeing terrorists. They're not used to seeing normal people. So I c sort of started being the bridge between two cultured cultures who hated each other, but I think they hated each other because they didn't know each other.

And I was like, Okay, I need to show the Iraqis that we are actually nice people. You see signs of hope that you could actually make a bigger and train. Yeah. Unbelievable. Um

I d like the night before you do that, do you sleep? No. No. No, no. That one that was probably the worst night. Also because I had to set up a whole if I disappear So I couldn't tell my own team because they would have rated me out immediately and I would have done the same by the I couldn't tell the military because if they say, Okay, Anna will cover you, whoever covers me and something happens to me, it's court martial.

And I can't inflict that on someone. So I told a colleague of mine, State Department, US State Department colleague, who w worked on another team. And he was also a a a f uh uh a former marine. So to me it was like he told me, Don't do it, it's crazy. It's but the whole plan was like if I do not show up at this time in front of the Nasseria prison because I did ask the military the the to come and be in front of the Nasseryah prison.

At a specific time on that Friday late afternoon. And I didn't tell them anything else. So as you didn't know what I was up to. And um But I told the other guy from the other team, if they don't If I don't show up at this time, you need to tell them that I have gone out with Governor Aziz and this is it so they can at least hunt down the governor and see what happened. So there was a whole plan in place.

But then I also noticed that I got stuck in traffic in a traffic jab coming back from the hunting trip and it's like Oh my god now we'll have the whole forces unleashed to free me and I am stuck in traffic, banal traffic. But you know when you don't have phones

Yeah. It's kind of hard to communicate. It's all things you don't think about when you live in this part of the world, but when you live in that part of the world, it's like, well and I just pick up a phone and call. That's not how it works. Yeah. So you've had so at this point you've been You've been almost shot by your bodyguard. Your hotel room has been blown up by a rod. My my beloved governor. A few months later, I had him over for dinner.

And he tells me, you know, they called me doctora because they were sure I was they were convinced I was a medical doctor. And I told them I'm not but it it's useless, you know, they're pretty stubborn. When they decide that you're something, you're something. So he looks at me and says, You know, doctora I am so happy I didn't

succeeds in killing you because you're a very nice person. He confessed it. Wow. Oh my God. And it was what do you say to that? Where you know, he wasn't here hiding behind anything. It was like, Yeah, we kill people here we dislike and I tried to kill you but I was wrong because you're a nice person. Did you say thank you to that? It's like, well I'm also kind of glad you didn't succeed. Uh there's one incident I think I'm gonna have to like

Fast forward over because because there's a bunch of other stuff I wanna get to. You end up Solomane's controlling this part of of Iraq at the time, you end up having a fatwa placed on you by somebody else. You've your reputation now has gotten to this point where you're able to get word to Soleimaney to call off

The fatwa. So y you you know, you're one of these very few people who've been in in that circumstance is uh unbelievable. And then and then y you know, you you've earned this title honorary man, which is, you know, it's both um endearing, respectful, and hilarious and and and you know, and it's it's such a it has comes with so many um undertones and meanings. But yeah, can you I mean explain explain this title on a little bit of It happened? You gotta understand that

Again, we humans are very adaptable. One thinks, oh, she did all this stuff. You know, if you live in that part of the world, eventually you adapt. And I had so got used to mm My role. that I would just take helicopters, have at that point I had bodyguards and they'd take me places and they would often have me sit at the head of the table or on the right hand side of the general in charge or the governor,

And the tables are these long tables full of guys with they put their c A Ks on the table and these moustaches and it's all it's all about violence and strength. And here comes Anna

if I had a flat jacket on and I would embellish it with plastic flowers you know, just to just to show that I I I'm not Rambo, I I don't have guns. I gotta wear this because uh you know, for safety reasons but And some French journalists came and visited and stayed for a while uh with the team and then w became quite friends with one of them and after one of these large meetings he said, Listen Anna, do you even realize?

how weird this is. Because whether it is also with Americans, also Americans, it was all American soldiers, three star generals and me briefing General Odierno or Petraeus and and it's just me and a bunch of guys. And he's like, D do you even know how we this looks so weird? And I was like, Does it really look weird? And he was like, Yes, it looks weird.

And you're the only woman. So I was like, Yeah, let's let's try the woman question here. So I went to one of these big meetings, all military guys and the chief of police of Nasseria and and I said I just said, Listen, just to f end up the meeting and there was journalists there, I said Why me? I'm a woman. Why me? And why not others? And uh Oh it was like it was There was a a r a true brainstorming session around the table, everything in Arabic and then

this three star general comes out and says, Because Doctora, you are an honorary man. So they had fixed the issue. Not a woman. The title is that. Let's move forward. Yeah.

And you know, it was you know, I I I I said that to a few colleagues when I used to work for Google and they was like, Oh my god, that what an insult. Uh that again, the Silicon Valley view. Yeah. That's a tribal view. That's how it works. If you really want to change that world, show your face. That was my whole point. Let's not talk about women's rights. Let's implement them. So by seeing me every day out there and not only the men, but also the women were like, Huh, maybe we can get there.

And also in m within my Iraqi team at the beginning there were very few women, then there were more women, to the point where then I picked my deputy as a woman. And I like to say that. It's like she was the most qualified engineer among all. So I picked her also because she had she had the right numbers. I didn't just pick her because she was a woman. But it it was so it I slowly transitioned to a very mixed team of men and women. But that's how you

do make change. You need to show it. So y y I mean we've touched on some of this. I d the Anytime okay, I remember reading um No Good Man Among the Living. Have you have you ever read that book? It's it's this guy who he goes to Afghanistan on the motorcycle and he's a kid, I think, if I remember right, he was like at MIT and he just decided

Screw it. I wanna find out what's happening in Afghanistan. And he goes on a on his motorbike and he's driving around or a bicycle. I for I think it was a motorbike. And um, you know, so he ends up getting this It's it's it's like one of the best books I've ever read, honestly. And and he gets this um this un oh I don't it's a biased view, but he he's getting this uh un unfettered view of of um what happened from the American occupation and

You know, it's all very similar s you y there were similar themes, right? It's it's like all this money comes in and there's good intentions and then things just go awry as people try to grab all the money and nothing you know, it it feels like so hopeless. Um and and clearly this just like repeats again and again, right? And and

um countries have done this forever, but the US is is sort of the main one now who like goes and tries to set up shop and fix things. Um I mean from your experience you you outlined some of the things you did. But like is this Is this universally just a hopeless thing to do to go into some country and try and establish order. Are there are there like any clearly you had a a means of operating in this total chaotic environment that was effective. Um

I'm sort of changing my question on the fly because maybe it is just hopeless for some some country to come in and try to establish order. But certainly there must be lessons to be learned of um effective things that can be done in dramatic situations like this. And and so you did highlight a couple, but I just I wondered if there's any other lessons to get to Yeah. I I I think one of the first things is um Uh we all speak about involve them, involve them, involve them. Um

But at the end of the day we involve them and then they come with a li a shopping list. I need four bridges here, I need eight schools there. And then you look at the bridges, it they all go from some prominent person in the province or in the city to drive to the main it's all favours. Now I understand maybe initially you need to do a little bit of that, but then you gotta stop. then it's needs to we need to change the way people do business. And that's what I did with the governor.

Governor, you if you wanna be successful, you need to start making a difference in the province. You need to stop that's where then the rule of law comes in. You really think that you can lock everyone up. He would um how do you say, you know hammer. Hammer uh you know, when he knew that his opponents would gather in the evening in specific places, he would have his militias go there

close all windows and all doors and burn people alive in there. I know there's like, oh my God, this is horrible. Oh yes, it is horrible. It happens everywhere. Now, I can't go up to the gardener and say, Oh, come on, stop doing He'll just Oh, he will first thing he'll deny, oh it's not me and we all know it's him. He needs to understand what is on the table if he stops doing it. And my my argument was um If you keep on being seen as the murderer, we're going towards elections.

They won't vote for you again. So you need to start governing the way and as I do like I had set up a complaints day so that people would bring in the complaints to me. At the beginning I would look into them and see what can I do here and there, but then it was like, Governor, this is what your people need. And by the way, it would be much more effective if you took a day from your schedule and sit there and listened to your constituents.

And he did it. And then the head of the provincial council did it. Interestingly, the head of the chief of police did it. So you need to be in touch with your people because now it is a democracy. You are going people are going to vote. Saddam is no longer here, so and he did not get voted again. So, you know, you'd need to get them to train them in thinking different.

And like I used to have a huge amount of I mean, I y you just mentioned the fatva. It's the Iraqis who saved me from the fatwa. Why? Because killing me would have been counterproductive. I was seen like she's the only one out here. Mukhtad al Sadr preaches anti Western but he's in Iran studying to become an Ayatollah. I never see him here. She is in the slums, she does stuff, she brings in medical mm teams from all over the world to help us.

So all of a sudden and I went regularly to the amusement park. Now we pay very little attention to normal life. We speak about oh lack of electricity, oh lack of water. Lack of normalcy, lack of fun, lack of spaces where you have a picnic on Friday night. And that's where I decided I'm building an amusement park where women can also walk around because after you know, when the sun goes down, women are all locked up in the houses.

Let's build a place where they can walk with their husbands, their kids Go out and flirt, we exchange little tickets is how I saw how d how do you actually date in a country where you can't do that? Tickets going out, love notes, phone numbers. But if you don't create that space, that life stops. And I created that space and regularly went on Fridays And there's actually a video about and I hadn't r where I come down from this catapult where you're with the legs up and the head down.

And that's where I realized this is probably more dangerous than anything else I ever did, knowing the engineers who just, you know, screwed the things like oh my god, this is so But when I go down, the whole park we're talking about hundreds. of people were cheering my name. Yeah. And this is how We need to start thinking about rebuilding. I don't want to go into the whole Gaza thing, but you need we have created a gazillion of new terrorists out there.

We need to bring them back on board. W how do you do that? Hope w we need to bring back hope. We need to involve them in whatever is going on. It will be uh you you say mission impossible, I don't like that word. But it will be not something that you do in one or two years. It will be a lifelong thing where groups hopefully of smart people take over and then at the end do it behind the scenes. Because the big work that I did was never slammed out there.

Yeah, I mean it sounds like it was this mix of like going out in the field, having relationships. Don't be on the media bragging about the last great thing that you did. Well this is the I this is the heart of my question. I I mean i the I know you don't want to hear the word impossible.

the care and nuance of what you're talking about and somebody who's lived through this and now has this experience and this knowledge, this does not strike me as like, you know, it seems like a much cruder, broader brush that is usually applied. to these things and it it's inevitably gonna be military led. And so so I mean how yeah, how

How does that change? I mean, how do you get how do you get not just one Ana but, you know, like a hundred who Yeah. And it was also in Iraq it was military led, but then you gotta you know, the military listens. The military are at the end of the day also the first ones who do not want to do reconstruction. They invade countries. So they would be more than happy to have civilians jump in and do that work. But a lot of civilians do not want to put their life at risk to do that work.

And and so it's it's it's it's really because also when I would tell and often, you know, I had tell them the m US military I remember once there was a high level official from the Italian government and it was during um I think Dalema's uh mandate and he was, you know, central left. And uh one thing I'm quite proud of, I survived everyone. That's the fact I am a political. Now of course I have my political views, but I am a a a technocrat. I do this.

for a living. So when this person, high level official, came, um, she was like, I I don't want to s want to see a single US military In your teeth. And we were on a US base in southern Iraq, so it's like you will see plenty of but then I went to my team members, the ones who were embedded in my team who were military. And I just told them up front, it's it's not my choice. I would have everyone in here and say Everyone is I I am the face of this, but everyone is working it.

Whether you're Iraqi, whether you're American, whether you're Australian, whether you're Italian, you're which was also the difficulty as a team lead to bring all these different mentalities in one shop. Yeah. But she it was anti US military. And so and they all left. I said just stay away from here for the whole day and let's just pretend that it's just So there's the military listens, if if they're treated with respect, they'll respect back. Yeah.

We the w w how are you h do you have f are you hearing from friends um about Iran right now? Oh yeah. Yeah. Well I mean what are you what what's your what are you hearing? How do you what do you think? Tracey. This is again we like the black and white, the bad guys and the good guys.

Let's not forget that the regime that is in place has been in place for decades, and this regime has come out of a revolution. So they have put in place everything to counter exactly what we're seeing Secondly, when uh Yatollah Khomeini took over, He had a whole cabinet written out, he had a whole plan. For years he had worked with the mosques. He had worked worked with the bazaris, which are the ones who work in the bazaars of the

uh you know, the people who do commerce. He had it all planned ahead. I find it amazing that we're talking about the Shah's son replacing and he lives he has lived for 45 years in Virginia. He's rich. the Shah got toppled because he was more often in San Marit skiing. He was never in his country. We're talking about I mean also a lot of Iranians who live in the US are all former Shah supporters. Um I know Iran well. the Shah used to impose Western way of dress code.

So if you wore a Chador during the Shah's time, they would hit you. You had to wear a skirt. Well that's not democracy. Frankly, of course the Western world likes that. They have, you know, they're they have makeup and they have mini skirts and they've travel and But that was imposing a way of life to a population that is Persian.

It's you know, whereas for example Iraq, we struggled in getting Iraq together. Iraq is all tribal. They don't there's not even an Iraq. God forbid we get against Persia. they will reunite against the common enemy. There's no tribes there. They'll get all together and then they'll start fighting again. So I really hope that there's no vacuum. Also because this is not I've watched all the I've actually worked in all the countries where the Arab Springs

were unleashed I was in Libya, I was in Egypt, and I had welcomed them all. Maybe because I came from Iraq it was so damn hard, it's better if it comes from the inside. Well none of those countries have succeeded. Libya, I go there, it's in hands of militias, ruthless militias. It's uh is more dangerous than Iraq at its peak. No one speaks about it anymore, but Syria shows that A dictator can stay in place and be the dictator of a bunch of ashes for ten years. That's what happened in Syria.

Tunisia, they voted actually democratically. They had a uh they have a president, and after ten years of democracy, he dismantled the parliament and everyone's clapping because finally we're back to a dictatorship and it will function. The only country that actually somehow functions is uh Egypt. Well Egypt has L C C. He's a general and he's definitely not democratic. But we're fine with that, because he's the friend of the Western world.

I would love to see a transition like that in Iran. To me that's the only way where you go. As I had said in Iraq, you've gotta go from the extreme and slowly, slowly chill. So s someone who's something of a a d dictator but more more moderate and yeah. And maybe not so religious, you know. Start being, you know? probably a custom suleymani would have been kind of the perfect fit in there, although he's you know, but he was a general he had

He had the buy-in from the population. He had fought in the Iran-Iraq war, so he was the strong man, but he didn't have you know, he wasn't religious. It it these slow transitions need to happen in those places. So what do you make of of MBS? MBS. In in Saudi Arabia and trying to make, you know, f I mean Cosmetically or or I think not even cosmetically, like some some actual changes. But he I think he is. I haven't been to Saudi. Um I hear that it's improving.

Uh but again, uh we also need to be careful not to align ourselves because now if we align with Saudi, of course we are disaligned with Iran. Because one is Shia and the other one Sunni. I I always wondered why are we aligning ourselves so closely to someone and why aren't we just taking a step back and understanding what can we do with a country in the world?

You like I I actually wrote um um a post last week on on on um on LinkedIn. Do you know that anyone There is it it's Iran is the second country in the world that that performs uh sex changing surgery. I did not. So I didn't either. But number one is I think uh Thailand. No i number one is Thailand, number two is Iran. And it is sponsored by the government. Now I'm not saying this is just to shop.

But this is a government that if it manages to work around the religious rules, which in that case is you are a woman in the wrong body. So you're not you know, whereas they throw gay people into into prison. If you want to change your sex no, because it is black and white. You're in the wrong body. We will help you get in your right body. So now there is a law that allows Iranians to change their sex and the government pays for part of the

Operation. So this shows that if they find some loopholes They will go for those loopholes. We need to find the loopholes. We need to sit around a table with them and say, Okay. It's in Italian we say Mettere Acquanvino. We need to put some water in our wine reciprocally, and come up with something that is diluted for both.

But is works out initially as a stepping stone towards something else. Yeah. Are you doing are you okay on time? I've I'm fine. All right, I've kept you over what I promised already. Um okay. The um well we we're not a m Middle Eastern politics show. I w I I'll I'll I'll pull back for a second th um and then I'm I'm just grossly fast forwarding through a ton of stuff because obviously you you stayed um in country for for a number of years longer. Um the

People are gonna have to read your book, which which we should say. I mean so it's it's been published in it. Well right now the title is uh Della mia guerra della mia pace of my war of my peace. Okay. And it's uh published in Italy by Harper Collins. And it's had a huge success.

Yeah, it was it was a bestseller. Yeah, and you're on media and everything. So and then okay, so maybe I was wrong. I mean Honorary Man was the title I saw. Honorary Man is the title that I always loved, but it translates awfully bad in Italian. Okay. So I have now rewritten it trying to you know, in English. Yeah. And the title that I like is Honorary Mag.

I I need to find an agent and then then hopefully pitch it in the US market. I mean it's incredible. I got to read the English translation. I mean it's just it's uh th there's parts of your story. I mean, you kind of start chronologic uh chronologically and y you're born in Italy, um, I'll be honest. Well I'm because I want to kind of come back to to contemporary, more contemporary times, but I mean it's a I'm a

Your mother sounds like quite um a a difficult uh person to grow up with. You you go through some of the travails of her um judging your weight all the time and keeping this This constant watch on you being very hard on you, um, kind of like undermining everything you you try to do. You um you were a tennis. Prodigy growing up, I I played competitive tennis when I was identified with all that. You come from this

This tennis family from a um it was either an uncle or a grandfather who built my grandfather and was the founder of the most famous Italian tennis racket, Maxima. Yeah, yeah. W you know during World War Two. And through about the age of sixty.

sixteen, you're you're winning all these tournaments, you're you're heading towards being a professional tennis player. You have a s horrific knee injury and then and then a series of of surgeries that that go wrong that kinda e ends that and then and then like we talked about, I mean you end up um doing

Working with these ambulances in Italy and then becoming a journalist and a traveler. And I might add, you know, I it took me a long time to write the book. Not so much because of the Iraq stuff, but because of the mothers. I'm shortchanging it but it is it's very and it wasn't just it she was ex it w she was brutal. I mean I don't go in details because I don't like uh but it's you know when you're

thirteen and your mother takes you to a plastic surgeon because she hates your face. She didn't like your chubby cheeks. And I needed to change my face and wade me every day and beat the hell out of me because and I never was overweight in my whole life. it was never pleasing someone and hum it was the daily it wasn't so much just the beating, but the daily humiliation. So one of the messages that I like about that I try to give out is uh

capitalizes on bad juju. We all get hit by shit in life eventually. You know, whether it's this and my my my childhood was extremely hard and uh but use it as a trampoline to do other stuff. So s a lot of people ask me, How did you survive in Iraq? And you know, when you are a small kid and your mother hates you

y you just don't don't understand, you don't figure it out. It's just a conundrum. You go in your room and I I I I was th I was I would think all night through. And then you go to an Iraq One plus one makes two. You know, my bodyguard didn't like me.

I it makes sense that he didn't like me. He tried to kill me. Period. I actually w wanted to meet him. They didn't want to meet him or didn't want me to meet him because they thought I w I'll beat the hell out of him. No, I wanted to sit down and have a chat. It made sense. Instead if for you know decades you live think why why why it It was important. I mean it prepared me for what came after. So I say sometimes Iraq was a a walk in the park. It wasn't a walk in the park, but at least

mentally it was compared to everything that I had to endure when you don't have the tools to fight. Well you so where do you think this part of you Like this that sort of realization that you're talking about, first of all. I mean, is that something that you have when you're a teenager? I I find um

You know, there's so many people that bad things happen to them and they let it kinda control their lives and then there's a whole other class of people who like you're talking about. I mean, I remember my my mother was battling cancer for years and years and years and years. Horrific. She's she's uh well, she's seventy eight now, she's the most like active uh you know, pro generally. Happy person. I know and and like always um Tyler was like, Yeah, it's not gonna get me down and and um

Um you know, there's just people who kind of react to these things differently. Did you so was this like a do you remember a consciousness? No, it wasn't conscious. Okay. I I I think I I always had the fighter instinct in me. it wasn't conscious. But I would, you know, always try to maintain my integrity. I I r I always tried to please my mom. had to cut it off with her because this trying to please would then I would eliminate myself.

Well she does some crazy shit. Yeah. You know, so at some point ten years ago I was like, This is it. Yeah. And she still can it's a mother. Yeah. So she still has the can get in my head. So the only way to get away with it was like, I I can't do this anymore. I tried for forty years to please you. I tried and tried. It's not working. Let's just quit. What about this like wanderlust, this um almost uh uh maybe I'm wrong. It feels like you almost have like an addiction to to uh or um uh

uh thirst to like feel this these dramatic situ to put yourself in pretty dramatic sort of spots. Or you you know, you're okay with that. Uh okay with Yeah. D like is that um 'Cause I've always had a wander less it was clear from how much you're traveling at a young age. I mean, you've got that inward both journalists. I mean, there's that I wanna see the world, I wanna see how this thing actually functions and meet all the interesting people. That part I get.

I think there was inside and I did travel a lot with my family with all the pros and cons. I mean with my dad and he was a famous mathematician, went a lot to to Russia. I travelled a lot. I think the main thing that I have is I'm curious. Yeah. I have this deep curiosity that I wanna stick my nose in stuff that I don't understand. And I I hate judging what I don't understand.

So I don't like to sit back and uh watch what's happening in Iran and say, Oh and just listen to the talking heads. I wanna go there and figure it out myself. When you you know, like when I do and I have not been in nearly as dramatic situations as you have. It's like a few that are a little harrowing and, you know, even just doing the job of like we make this t travel, um T V show. I mean, th there does become something of like a addiction though to to like

living these these very full dramatic days. Sometimes you come home and it just feels it feels so much more sedate. It's a little um hard. Like d did you did you start to ever question like maybe I'm

I am I'm just pushing things with I I I had that and I was my husband was really happy about it. It didn't last long. We went to Pakistan on a motorcycle. And it it was the most undangerous punt country I've been to and everyone thinks, Oh, it's all Zama bin Laden. It was maybe the nicest trip I've ever had it was a year and a half ago I've always wanted to go, yeah. It's a m gorgeous country, but more than gorgeous, you know, the whole Karakotam highway to the China border.

Extraordinary. And that's where I also learn We always look at people that oh they must hate America. People have more important things to do than hate America or hate the Western world. They have to put brut bread bread and butter on the table. So going there, especially with a husband who is American, looks American, he was scared of shit. Yes. He's like, I can't I you know

And then they all wanted selfies with him. They wanted it was a completely different vibe. So we often get also scared of what we see on T V and of course we only see the flags and a lock bar, but people are different. And I think that Experiencing that and Talking about it and writing about it is still something that I feel very deeply about.

No no I have the same experience pretty much everywhere I go um universally everywhere I go. But on a motorcycle in Pakistan eventually it was so dangerous. Yeah. And we I went to India, it was way less dangerous. I mean in the mountains and sliding on ice and everything and trucks. And tuk tukks and everything. One the first I think the second evening I t I told my husband, it's like I think What a good I I I reached the age thing. Uh there's an age for everything.

I should know this'cause it's in the book, but I was looking your husband up earlier and I saw Air Force and Marines and and a couple so I wasn't sure. I met him in Baghdad, he was um a fighter pilot. In Baghdad he was an advisor to the Ministry of Finance. And now he works for Google. Yeah, the two of you get married, you don't you you end up in

Hello Alto, this is supposed to be the kind of relaxing, uh uh more sedate portion of your life. You um almost immediately um get a brain tumor at the age of forty six. I think. Yeah, so still very, very young. And and the doctor first tells you this is pretty much inoperable, it's behind your eye, you're screwed, and then some other doctor kinda gives you what might be

Better news, I suppose he's like he's like, I have options, although one of them, you know, is that you'll be a vegetable um after this surgery is done. And so you take this really high risk surgery. So I mean that must have been shocking. You've lived this insane life. It's very s it's very uh Finally. The weather's nice. It's it's pretty easy going here. Yeah. You're working at Google, you're getting free lunch. Yes. And then you get a brain's room. Yeah.

Well that was uh again, it was uh I had not looked after myself for a long time. So even when I went to the ER and they said, But this is a golf ball, I mean you did you have migraines? I had had migraines for years. Yeah. And I was going blind. And finally I had time. So I said, Okay, let's go and get a pair of glasses. Now I have time to go get myself a pair of glasses and they were like, Mm, you need to go to the ER.

And all of a sudden I have this and they tell me there's nothing we can do. And then again, luck, God I get this call from you know from doctor Chang, who is one of the gurus of experimental surgeries at Stanford, and but again, even after the surgery, of course I thanked him profusely, and then he said I I have never seen anyone fight so hard to live.

Yeah, and you're trying to get on a plane to like Kenya the next day or something. So uh again, there is definitely and that's also a message where Fighting helps. It's not just some rumor that is around. I mean, if you really hang on to life there's up there's there's your options uh Yeah go up. I mean you mentioned God. Are you religious? I I'm spiritual. Okay.

So you're not a you're not a hardcore Catholic. No, I'm not. Although I met with the Pope. But I'm not this uh I'm like

Whoever will read the book. That was a very good thing. I I should say I don't want to go through everything'cause I hold I want people to read the book when it comes out. Um all right, we're gonna do a couple of just last stories. Um I mean there is there's uh for me it was hilarious. It's that you end up working um for Google X and um, you know, they they used to have this this project, oh, and now I'm blanking on the name Project Loon and you know it was to

fly these high altitude balloons balloons where they would deliver internet to to places that were struggling to get high speed internet. So is in some ways Fantastic job for you'cause you're gonna have to go to these these countries, these difficult spots and arrange the the the politics and everything to make make

make this happen. Um without getting shot. Without getting shot. But I mean and we'll get into the mechanics of that, which I thought w were quite amusing for me just know knowing tech companies so well. But you know, one of your first First moments at at Google. I was talking about the free lunch is uh well, they're having these like, you know, the Larry and Sergei um sort of gripe sessions where the

workers could go actually this was with Astro Telers. I had Google G I F Google X, yeah. And so so you've just come back, you've you you've almost been blown up like eighteen times. You've had a Fatwa called against you and and the people at Google are complaining about the quinoa the quality of the stuff. What is that?

It must be a project name. So you think this is a code name for some some project that's not going quite right, but really they just they want better they want better grains in sushi at lunch. Yeah. So that must have been a massive culture shock. Yeah. It was you know, and it it's um It it it it it was and I have to say I still struggle with that. Yeah, we're not we're it's not like we've approved on that.

You know, Loon was great, oh we are saving people around the world, but then the one who went around the world was me. And then eventually I started because I am not a deeply technical person, so if I can if I can speak big picture about the project that's good. But then if we gotta go into the technicalities, I need engineers. And the first chapter of those engineers were really interesting because, you know, they're like you know, then I I I I I saw myself s sort of like the the mama.

It's like do you have a suit? Oh, I never wore a suit, not even at my wedding. I don't care about your wedding. You have to wear a suit if you're meeting with a minister, a prime minister, a president. a a hum a common human on the African continent or in Indonesia or

And tie. No flip flops and Bermudas and it gotta clean up and it was it was a battle. It was it was this whole uh But then again, it's not knowing the world because then when I finally traveled with them and always said, We need to go there a couple of days sooner, because it's not about having a successful meeting. It's about trust. Yeah. And it's a PowerPoint slide for them up there. Who cares about the logo a little more upright, a little more left this this is just what we c focus on.

It's about is there the right warmth around the table? Do these people actually care for us? So how do you showcare? Go there a couple of days before. I would have would toured the slums of Dar es Salaam on a bicycle with the engineering team. Just these are the people that you claim you want to help. You need to meet them, you need to stop and talk to them. I went to mass with in a Catholic country and I don't go I don't go to mass either.

But it's in the cathedral, you meet the people, they will see you. Probably a lot of ministers will be there. So on the Monday meeting they will already know you and you showed respect. Also after Mass was You usually get invited, they won't they won't let you they'll invite you over for lunch. But you also had to see the f faces of the Africans when you get to Mass and it's like, but you should go to the Anglican Mass. It's like, No, no, no. I I want this Mass And it's like but

Do you speak Swahili? No. I was like, well then why? It's it's it it's a different mass. The Anglican mass, I know it by heart. It's frankly pretty boring. And then interestingly when you show ymwneud â'r cwllture. Ymwneud â'r cwllture ac mae'n ymwneud â'r cwllture ac mae'n ymwneud â'r cwllture ac mae'n ymwneud â'r cwllture. Yeah, I mean do you think this is uh clearly a flaw of Silicon Valley? I think it's

I don't wanna besmirch an entire nation. I think it's kind of an American flaw, if I'm honest. I mean, I I I think we're always in a rush to do so many things and business and and um I should I I don't know if we are wired to like take care of these kind of details, you know, and and we we shortchange all Yeah, it is. I mean it I

I th I I am afraid that the world is kind of taking That was that was my next question. Yeah. Maybe it was initially an American trade, the workaholics, everything needs to be done by close of business. Well that or, you know, what's the the motto of uh Google X, uh Astro is like uh Break build and break and uh do the go fast. If I break a relationship, it's over. I need to wait for a a coup

or the guy to die or so I cannot break it. So I really need to do my homework well. I need to dress appropriately. I mean the homework that's done around it is you just don't walk in a place like that. You need to know Everything about your interlocutor, at whatever level he or she is, also to be able to do small talk, if they go biking, if they swim, if they do that. I mean

anything and it takes a long time. So well, and you're a consult you're a consultant now, right? Now I'm consultant. Yeah, so did you find was it um I you know I don't know how freely you want to speak about this or not, but I mean did you find Google Could internalize some of these lessons you were trying to teach, or do you find that the the culture here is just is just never gonna get it? Well I think either then they gave give up on all the

projects that are worldwide and that need uh human approval. You know what really shocked me, you know, at Loon there were, I don't know, a hundred and fifty engineers, up to two hundred really smart engineers. I was the only one. And only one in charge of relations with government. Right. Okay. And and I'm like We I had to be everywhere because to fly those balloons the you f we flew them out of Winnemucca in in in the US. Yeah. To get to

Africa, Kenya, they have to fly over a bunch of countries. Yeah, I should describe it maybe a little bit better. I mean these are these are kind of persistent balloons that are flying in the stratosphere. In the stratosphere all the time. And so it's like another country's airspace and you're trying to provide infrastructure, you're trying to provide Internet.

to to consumers um and institutions and and so you know it's it's infrastructure. I mean this is this is like uh a thing a country's gonna care about, right? Oh yes. Oh yes. I mean the telecoms are gonna care. Everyone's everyone. And You know, Google is one of the largest companies in the world. It is American. We have balloons flying on top of their heads. The question is

Do you have cameras? Are you spying on us? Yeah. Well, and you're like in most cases they were trying to do it for free often, which I'm sure the local Telecommunications companies that are. Okay, okay. So m you know, those are hard to get. So for example to get to Kenya we had to fly over Congo and Tanzania and Those don't get anything. So I had to go to these places and usually talk to the secret services and the aviation authorities and say, Can we just fly over? Because we're serving

Yeah. The Kenyans. Well, for example, Tanzania hates Kenya. I still remember when the last CEO of of Loon said, Well, just tell them that you're serving their Kenyan brothers. They hate each other since centuries. So he'll kick me out. Done. So I am trying to get to fly over systematically over countries that don't have anything. In you know, they're just like, Well, you're just spying on us. You just still remember I met once uh President Museveni, who's another full fledged dictator in Uganda.

And I had met with everyone in his for two years, everyone in his cabinet and had everyone on board and finally I meet the big guy and he says, So who's kicking the can? Because with dictators you often get to the point, Who's kicking the can? It's like, well I I don't know who but the can is being kicked. And it's like but what's the concern? And it's like the concern is that we spy on you and we do not have cameras, but I can't really prove it.

And you know, most second he just laid back and said, But you already spy on us. If do you wanna know how much sugar I put in my coffee in the morning, you already know. If you want to know, you d and I said, Yeah, that's what I try to say. We don't do balloons in the stratosphere flying with the winds.

To spy. We already have satellites for that, yeah. Yes, satellites, easier ways. Uh yeah, I mean Uh I could see a world where I bet the Silicon Valley approach was sort of like let's not talk to these people, let's just do this because it was at the beginning it was. too large and we had to scale. And then there's like the civil aviation authority, ICAO, you know, they all wanted to know, okay, end of this, we need to, you know, have

things in place that allow you letters of agreement that allow you to do this. Yeah. So frankly, pretty much from the get-go, I knew it wouldn't work out.

So are you like are you cynical about sil I mean, you know, silk the cliche here is that everybody's trying to save the world or they say they're trying to save the world even if they have, you know, the shittiest, um, most rudimentary app for like, you know, whatever, ordering sandwiches or Something um d are you When you have your step back.

Do you find Silicon Valley um I guess it's not black and white, but you know, yeah. I mean, does it drive you crazy or or is this an inspiring place with a With interesting thinkers. It it it has interesting thinkers. Not too many in my line of work. Um but it does, you know, this whole close of business. And there are countries where and I had to explain it. Um

actually to to it was Mike Cassidy. He was an extraordinary human being. Thank you, Mike. But it was like you know, I I finally another thing that was hard hire people on the ground. It's like, well, no, you go no, I need people who are also have the right connections with the right person. Because it's all about, you know, knowing people. Now when you are in places where, you know, there's a dictator and h the dictator would never pass Google's ethics and compliance.

So if I'm trying to hire someone within the circle to get me to and get you know in the door and of course he doesn't he or she doesn't go through ethics and compliance. But I can't if I can hire an eighteen year old student, it helps the student, but the student doesn't help me. Yeah. I need those people. So to even get Google to understand, I need those dodgy people to move forward. Because the governments that we interact with

are dodgy. Yeah. To start with. So either we say we do not work with dodgy governments, well then you don't you stop working because every government is in some shape or form dodgy. Uh then you have to you know, put water in your wine. Yeah. Yeah. I rem And when I was at Bloomberg I'll probably get someone in trouble, but I don't care. I'm not there anymore. So I remember we'd film somewhere like uh Nigeria, you know, and it it's like, uh

Yeah, we would take our annual um little automated H R courses on bribery and things like this. And it's like it's like okay, well I'll click these boxes. I'm not sure you guys understand the mechanics of actually filming. Have they signed an NDA? I'm in the middle of the desert and I gotta have MDA signed news. Money that needs to change hands in some circumstances in order to

For things to happen and you probably want to ask fewer questions about Yeah, just to if just don't ask questions if you don't want to be told lies. Yeah, yeah. Um uh well Uh uh is so fast. Uh w we could I mean, I could badger you with questions forever. Um, the I cannot wait for your book to be translated and out in the United States. This one hundred percent all needs to be The television show or a movie. I kept picturing um oh God, now I'm gonna forget the uh

Zero dark thirty or something like that. Except uh the heroine is is like helping p people and not not torturing and and kidnapping people. Yeah. I mean that I would like to avoid that. That was how I was picturing you um going through all of these things. I feel like uh well it's very nuanced. You know, I have very good friends and I don't who have tortured people. Yeah.

And we have discussed it because I discuss things, but I also think people feel that there's no judgment. So it's like explain to me Yeah why. And you know y then I might disagree or in some ways agree on some things, but it's the whole thing when people feel comfortable, then they are I remember the chief of police of Nasseria knew that I had issues with this whole you know

torturing stuff. And he would tell me, you know, I'm chilling out. Great progress. I'm in therapy. We're we're we're tortured less than it's it's okay. Um yeah. I mean I I think I'm like y you on some sense I'm v I'm just a very open minded person. People are often put in extraordinary circumstances and have to have to navigate those and and the world is complicated and and um, you know, far more

dramatic than day to day stuff in Silicon Valley quite often. But um it's extraordinary life. I'm so glad um Jessica about this. I did not I I kind of a crazy thing while you're just sitting there getting your hair cut. Yeah. To hear about all this. And so Um so I'm really grateful. And then I think you're off you're off on um on a fun trip or something.

And I always wanted to go to uh inauguration ceremony of the Olympic Games. And now there's the ceremony Olympic Games opening ceremony is in Milan. I am from Milan. I still have my one bedroom little apartment there from when I was a student. So I'm off to Milan tomorrow. Okay. We'll see it there. We're ending on a positive note. Where people actually fight for the flag without killing each other. Yes. Um

Well thank you so much. I hope we stay in touch. Um'cause I I think you live you probably live I live follow up yeah not too far from the office. So um and thank you so much for being generous with your time. Well thank you. Thanks a lot. The Core Memory Podcast is hosted by me, Ashley Vance, and or Kylie Robison, or both of us together. It is produced. by me and David Nicholson. Our theme song is by James Mercer and John Sortland, and the show is edited always by the

Swartland. Thank you so much to Brex and Ewan Ventures for all your support and thank you most of all to everybody for listening or watching. We love you. Leave us a like, a review, a subscribe, all those trades. things. Thank you and we'll see you again.