Whole Zone Media.
Hello, and welcome to Cool People did Cool Stuff show that comes through your headphones while you're walking the dog. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and my guest today is Sarah Marshall. Hy Sarah, Hello, I'm.
So happy to be here, especially as someone who grew up as a tween ignorant about all of this but wanting to find an excuse to live in a tree for over a year.
Earthworce would have been the better group than the Earth Liberation Front the thing that you can live in for a year, as the Earth Liberation Front of solitary confined.
Oh god, I our producer, you're getting straight in it's me Hy Sophie. Sophie.
Sophie's kind of a big deal around here.
That was really that was really funny.
Funny list than the audience listeners.
I won't know why it's really funny, but just know it's really funny.
Yeah, And that's what's fun is having inside jokes that. Oh wait, the whole point of a podcast doesn't make the listener think that they're part of the end whatever. No, the point of the podcast is education and entertainment and helping us do that is our audio engineer danel Hi danel Hi, dannelh. Danel Our theme music was written for Spyon Women and this is part two in a two part are about the Earth Liberation Front, a group, a leaderless group that did an awful lot of damage to
Earth destroyers that was very contentious at the time. It's probably very contentious still. But it's kind of interesting to watch the way that mainstream media talks about it these days, because it's a little like, well, maybe we're all about to die and we should do this, you know, Like even like mainstream media's was just a little bit like, this is probably not the right way to go about it. I'm running out of my is like that's they could
see the facade crack. I don't know, I'm grinning while I say this, maybe because it's.
Kind of funny. Yeah, I mean, the question of who gets called an extremist in American media is very interesting, right because it's clearly all about what kind of an extremist you are, and they're like certain extremists who were in favor.
Right now yeah, no, totally, And there's like all this the FEDS who are currently leading and I'm completely ill to get to that at the end all right, where we last left our heroes, they were being hippies tagging we don't like America on rest stops. They were tagging five hundred and four years of genocide around Columbus Day, and then burned down a truck, and so they hadn't
really done much yet, but they were starting to. The fires at the Ranger Station were started by people from Warner, and soon they expanded into the largest and most prolific cell of the ELF in the US and possibly the world. But I'm not entirely certain about that, and I've seen an awful lot of narratives about exactly who did this,
or rather who was behind it. On some level, we like kind of know, right because almost everyone involved has pled guilty, But some of them have basically said I pled guilty to some shit I did and some shit I didn't do, because they're like, hm, I was going to go to prison for the rest of my life unless I said I did it, including things that I didn't do. And that's a whole separate thing about the
way that the judicial system makes people lie. But in the end, there are almost twenty people arrested in connection to this particular cell of the Earth Liberation Front most about ten years later, and every narrative picks a different sort of like ring leader or whoever to blame, partly because they're all like, who's the leader, who he was in charge? Because people can't wrap their fucking head around anarchists.
It's hilarious. The narrative I find most convincing is that this cell started from late night talks at Warner Creek and about what was happening to the planet and what needed to be done. That's the one I've been going with. But I've heard a lot of narratives around this, And in that narrative, there's this punk guy, Jacob Ferguson. Sometimes he's called the leader. He was. Certainly it's undoing, so if that's how we define leader, we can go to that.
But generally.
He was a quiet man and sort of a bad boy. He did drugs and he played punk rock, and he was angry, and he had like a lip ring and septim ring and stuff. Imagine a bad kid, white kid from a rough background in the nineteen nineties, and you have successfully pictured Jacob Ferguson.
All right, yeah, I see him.
Yeah, And supposedly it all started when basic. It was like, y'all talk a lot of shit, but are we gonna do anything? And his nickname was a donut.
Why I don't know, because cops can always find him.
Yeah, it should have been a sign to everyone all along.
Oh no.
And then there was this older hippie anarchist. His name was William Rogers, also known as Avalon. I think his name is face, yeah, right.
Like because it was his favorite Brian Faerie song Avalon.
I actually don't know that reference. But Avalon is a mythical island lost in the fog. Sometimes uses like a shorthand for the old ways, for the pagan world before Rome civilized England and start all the fucking nonsense we're dealing with today. And I I like it. I don't know, because I'm a sucker for mythology and magic and shit, and I'm really good at blaming everything on England. But I'm going to go a step further and blame everything on the Roman Empire.
Fair enough.
Just look at him, I know, look at them. Avalon was a venerable old man. He was thirty years old in nineteen ninety five. All the media is always like the old guy who led it, because he's the one who gets pegged as the leader of everything because he's older than everyone. He was thirty years old in nineteen ninety five when Warner Creek started. He'd already been involved
in Earth First for a few years. He'd been living out of his truck, going from protest to protest to organize, and at one point he lived in a snow cave with three other people in Idaho as part of an Earth First encampment shortly before Warner Creek. So he was one of the more experienced people who showed up to Warner Creek. He gets called the mastermind of the whole
thing by the government. It's possible. We don't know. And one reason we don't know is because everyone well, cause there's assatual limitations on terrorism, and even the people who've confessed are a little tight LittD about some shit. But after his arrest, Avalon kills himself in jail, and so we don't know his position on a lot of things. The government, they're pretty old fashioned, and I've seen the oldest white male be assumed to be the leader before.
It Just you know, there's a group of people, you're like, who's in charge?
And you just like I was gonna say, it's like when you're at dinner and people get like, give give the oldest man there the check, when it's when it's me, the tiny blonde person.
Yeah, absolutely don't.
They don't even like look at the name on the credit card. They just they just automatically assume it's like the eldest white man there.
Yeah, like hello, mister Sophie.
I like that.
And in this case, it's kind of interesting because like, if I die, don't do that. You can blame anything that I would consider ethical on me. You can just like whether or not I did it. Like I have a friend who once got convicted of like doing all of the black block destruction at this protest that probably like thirty people where I'm making this number up. I wasn't there, but probably it would have taken a lot
of people to do that much damage. And one one person got convicted of all of it, and he's just like, yeah, sure, totally I did all of it. I'll take I'll take the social capital. I already did the jail time, you know. Christ Yeah, anyway, avalon the government, you know, decides this, probably him, but I don't know. However, the cell started. It started. They burned up a truck at a ranger station because they didn't like the forest services complicity and
old growth logging, and that was their first fiery thing. Right. Soon enough, this group gets called the family, and there are almost no references to the actual people in this cell referring to it as the family. This is what the Feds and the media refer to it as it is. It's possible that they occasionally call themselves the family, but like in all the discovery, there's not a lot of that.
And do you think that's because the media knows that something sounds more sinister if you call it by something that in the recent past has been preceded by the word manson.
Yes, I genuinely think that that is what's going on. There's this whole thing later where some of the defendants like are just being edge lords and start playing into that when they're like already in prison. But whatever. So they are the most successful cell, their liberation front, and their security culture is top notch. They took their shit serious across dozens of fires and actions. There wasn't a single bit of DNA evidence that was ever brought back.
They wore socks over their shoes to disguise their footprints. They wipe down everything for their fingerprints. In order to assemble what they needed. They'd build these clean rooms like they'd rent a hotel room and then put a tent inside the hotel room, and then put on painter suits and then go into the tent.
Wow.
They took their work very seriously. Someone probably avalon the government alleges as much. And I see no reason why to let anyone else take the credit or blame for this rode. A zine called It's very evocative title setting fires with electrical timers, which I.
Love because that could also be like somebody's MFA the asso say uva yeah totally, and like movement, yeah totally.
And so this zne was a modern dance masterpiece, and it talked about some dance moves that I am one hundred percent not going to talk about on air, and that I have avoided even reading the zine. The zine came out and suddenly it was harder for the government to map out which cells did which action because they all used the same technology. They also didn't all know each other, or they didn't see each other very much.
Most of them dropped out of the movement to avoid putting anyone else at risk and avoid drawing attention to themselves, and it was a lonely life. They passed notes to each other by all getting the same book and then like building ciphers that are like open the dispossessed and turned a page blah blah blah, line number word, blah blah blah.
You know. Wow.
Yeah, they were early adopters of encrypted email. They used PGP, but more than that, they would leave notes for each other in the drafts folder of a shared email address that they would log into only at public libraries.
This is real, like mission impossible type stuff.
Oh. Absolutely, they're one of these people who was on the run for twelve years has like some wild shit. We're going to get to one of them at least lived in Canada the entire time, and we just sneak across the border for actions and then sneak back home, which is probably a good like alibi. I wasn't even in the country. It is a pretty strong.
Yeah.
In all their actions, no one was killed or harmed. They went through elaborate efforts to make sure of that. And on Beltane nineteen ninety seven, pretty early on They released their sort of inaugural communicae, and I'm going to read it. Welcome to the struggle of all species to be free. We are the burning rage of this dying planet. The war of greed ravages the earth, and species die out.
Every day. ELF works to speed up the collapse of industry, to scare the rich, and to undermine the foundations of the state. We embrace social and deep ecology as a practical resistance movement. We have to show the enemy that we are serious about defending is sacred. Together, we have teeth and claws to match our dreams. Our greatest weapons are imagination and the ability to strike when least expected. Since nineteen ninety two, a series of Earth Nights and
Halloween smashes as mushroomed around the world. Thousands of bulldozers, power lines, computer systems, buildings and valuable equipment have been composted. Many ELF actions have been censored to prevent our bravery from inciting others to take action. We take inspiration from the Luddites, levelers, diggers, the autonom squatter movement, the alf, the Zapatistas, and the little people. Those mischievous elves of lore authorities can't see us because they don't believe in elves.
We are practically invisible. We have no command structure, no spokespersons, no office, just many small groups working separately, seeking vulnerable targets and practicing our craft. Many elves are moving to the Pacific Northwest in other sacred areas. Some elves will surprises as they go. Find your family, and let's dance as we make ruins of the corporate money system.
What I love about that is how it, you know, brings in the legacy of you know, the we folk and the fairies of.
Avalon.
I guess really where we have this, you know, contemporary idea of fairies is like very cute and feminine, and I guess, you know tinker Bell is part of some kind of heredity because she'll kill a bitch. But that really, like the legacy of the magical creatures that folklore told of was that they were part of nature and if you turned your back on them at the wrong moment, they could destroy if they felt like it, and that that was part of their mischief. And I don't know,
I love that. I mean, I feel like the earth needs protectors, but sort of showing where you are in the legacy of that not that not that the goal is to convince the people who are trying to arrest you of the righteousness of what you're doing. But it's it's it's convincing. It's literature. I think, you.
Know, it's really well written. Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. I really actually when you're saying, how like, you know, fairies in such a scene as like feminine? Now right, but one of the really the more I read medieval history, the more I realize that the feminine was terrifying to the medieval year of mind. It was the feminine claims a lot wildness. It was unpredictability and violence, and like you know, it was cool.
Yeah.
And the other thing I love about this is they specifically say we have no command structure. The FEDS spend They're still trying to wrap their head around who is in charge.
Augh, I love it.
In nineteen ninety seven, the ELF moved on to not what they're most famous for, but what they're best at, the thing that you can point and say they accomplish their strategic goals. Here, the Elf saved horses. You see, thank god. Yeah, there are these wild horses living all over the US. Especially out west in Nevada and Wyoming in particular, and kind of like eastern California, like all the high, dryish parts of the country that are kind
of flat. And I've read eighty two thousand horses currently. I've read two hundred thousand horses currently, probably the answers in between those I don't know. And this population of horses is under management of the Bureau of Land Management,
which is not my favorite governmental institution. Their population is managed by them being rounded up and theoretically adopted out to loving homes, right, because there's only so many wild horses that can live in the planes and stuff, right, so they you know, the nice version of the story, the version of the story that's like, oh, they plant six trees for everyone they cut down, is that they round up these horses, the extra ones, and they adopt
they find adoptees, and they you know, the government's like, oh, we make them do all this paperwork. We show up like three times before they can resell, like you know, ah blah blah blah.
They go to a nice farm up state.
Yeah, that's what was actually happening, according to an awful lot of journalism, but not according to the BLM. What was happening was that they were basically being adopted and then turn around and sold to slaughterhouses. Yeah, mostly they were being sold to one slaughterhouse because there was more or less only one operating in the US at the time. It was called Cavel West. Horse meat is not served in the US Traditionally, it is outright banned and a
ton of states. This didn't stop slaughterhouses from slaughtering horses and selling the meat internationally. Even though there was no national you couldn't sell the meat nationally. Eventually, this was officially stopped in two thousand and seven. It wasn't actually technically banned, but what happened was all the slaughterhouses had to be inspected, and the government didn't put money aside to inspect the hot orse slaughter houses, so it was effectively banned.
That's interesting.
So what happens now is that tens of thousands of horses that are exported alive to slaughterhouses in other countries.
But oh okay, so wait are like are French people eating wild caught American horses? Not to pin it all on the French.
But American horse meat is often considered a delicacy in countries that eat horses.
It feels kind of wrong when it happens to us. I mean, it's fine for Americans to plunder other countries because that's a natural order.
Go to war against France.
Let they know that all the things put in American foods, I don't think. I don't think you want. I can't even imagine what's an American horse food.
Yeah, the wild cut, that's the thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, they've gorged themselves on soda cans and.
And all the things we put in our soil that we're not supposed to put it in our soil.
And you know what, they don't gorge themselves on because all of these things are carefully constrained and don't litter. All of them are totally an Yeah. But I'm also lying because we have no knowledge of whether or not they're environmentally sustainable. The things that we're about to.
Talk about, no idea, but here they are anyway.
And we're back. So overall, the US shares the English language country taboo on horse meat. However you feel about horse meat, it's still fucked up that people are opting these horses just to sell them to slaughter houses. Yeah, and if you're only judge for moralities. Legality, Well, it's
also not legal to do so. The FBI put together a team of three hundred agents working around the clock to get to the bottom of the corruption within the BLM and their complicity and the illegal horse slaughter programs. Just kidding. In the end, they put three hundred agents together to arrest the people who stopped the illegal horse slaughter program, the Earth Liberation Front. They decided to address
this problem directly. On July twenty first, nineteen ninety seven, the elves went to Redmond, Oregon, to the only West Coast horse slaughterhouse I've also read the only one in the country, I'm not certain, and they burned it to the ground. No horses or people were injured in the process.
This slaughterhouse was never rebuilt. On November twenty ninth, nineteen ninety seven, elves led about five hundred horses and fifty burrows, which were donkeys for US East Coast people let them free at a BLM wild Horse Corral and Oregon in the fittingly named town of Burns, Oregon, and then they
burned that corral to the ground. A Syrian American software engineer named Joseph Dibbi designed and planned the incendiary that destroyed the wildhorse slaughterhouse, and later in two thousand and one, he would burn another BLM wildhorse facility or he only did the one, and he's one of the people who later pled guilty that says that he did some of the things that he pled guilty to. And yeah, across the West, the ELF set wild horses free in direct
response to the slaughterhouse pipeline. I've read a few different accounts that claim that these actions forced the national conversation on the issue and led to the two thousand and seven ban. That might be true, but I also know that they specifically and directly saved thousands of wild horses lives and stopped the only place that people were selling their wild horses to illegally. And then then they did
the thing that got them famous. Yes, if you've ever thought about the Earth Liberation Front a radical environmentalists, and you picture a picture of building on fire, there is a photo from Veil that is the picture that you're thinking of. They burned down a huge chunk of veil, the busiest ski resort in the country. Oh wow, Yeah, without hurting anyone that's impressive. Yeah, this is their big one.
This is their biggest is twelve million dollars fire. Most of their fires willow half a million million.
Yeah.
In nineteen ninety eight, Veil was set to expand eight hundred or two thousand acres. I've read both into Lynx habitat, and there was this huge movement against it all the like grassroots local people like getting together to be like, hey, don't you think your ski resort's big enough and maybe the links and the natural world get a little bit of stuff. And they were like, we don't think that, and so environmentalists sued and they lost. The court sided with.
They were like, white people love almost dying, so yeah, you know.
And then Robert came in and was like, well what if they actually die sometimes and then just make it slightly more dangerous self correcting problem. But on October sixteenth they start cutting. On October eighteenth, smelves arrived. They actually I think this one they actually showed up earlier and tried to do it, I think probably on the sixteenth, but they didn't succeed for one reason or the other and had to go back down the island and then
come back later on October eighteenth, Samelves arrived. They got snuck in a snowstorm, but regardless, they made their way up the mountain in the middle of a fucking snowstorm and they burned twelve million dollars of buildings.
Wow.
Two hunters had been sleeping in a free standing restroom on the property Avalon, according to the Denver Post, opened the bathroom door to check to see if anyone was inside. He saw the hunter, So they didn't burn that building,
which implies that they checked every building for people. The fire absolutely could have spread and killed those two men, but it was also the night of a wild snowstorm and none of the fires spread at all, And so a lot of the allegations by the government, which are understandable, is that fire is notoriously uncontrollable in some ways, right,
and it absolutely could have spread. However, there are thousands of actions over the years that this is happening in which no one was injured, So I think it's not a coincidence. Yeah, the first responders knew it was arson because these were individual fires that were not connected to each other. There was not one big fire that destroyed
everything was very carefully done. The only evidence that they left it all was some quickly melting footprints, and they probably had socks over the shoes, and they sent a communicate the next day from a Denver library. However, this fire did not stop Vale's expansion. What it did stop up was the local environmentalist movement that was working to
fight veil. There were people planning civil disobedience on the mountain that night, according to one thing I read, And it never happened, right because the buildings caught fire, and the local environmentalists had their houses raided, and everyone got paranoid and divided and just did it fucked things up, and the family and the elf attacked timber companies and paper mills, they attacked genetic engineering research facilities, they attacked
suv dealerships and logging machines. Other cells across the country, burned subdivisions under construction and like McDonald's and shit like that. All the while, the anarchist movement in the Northwest is ramping up, and then it kind of kicked off onto the world stage with the World Trade Organization protests in Seattle November nineteen ninety nine. And at these one day, I'm going to do a hole thing on WTO and
the anti globalization movement. But today's not that day, but environmentalist teamsters, hippies, punks, and everyone descended on the city of Seattle to stop world leaders from carving up the world to exploit basically these free trade agreements that are basically like, how do we avoid economic protections and developing nations so that the developed nations can more effectively extract their resources, which is a thing that has a direct
and calculable body count. And I think that's worth understanding because then, like what ends up happening, right is the infamous Black Bloc entered the American stage, anarchists wearing all black and masks directly attacked corporate property, smashing at McDonald's and shit like that. And before that.
When Americans pictured an anarchist, that they just have a mental image of Sacho and Vanzetti.
I think so. I think that the overall assumption about what an anarchist is was like mad Bomber until nineteen ninety nine when it became punk in a throwing a brick at a Starbucks.
When it became day to night.
Look, yeah, and both are things that anarchists do. Both are tiny portions of like like anarchists back in the day would be like, I have killed a king who had personally overseen three hundred of my friends shot in the streets, which is why Katano Breshi went and killed King Mberto too, one one of the amberdos.
You know.
It was like and so people are like this violent anarchists, and you're like, the man who killed a king who had just killed three hundred of this man's friends. Yeah, that's where the violence is, is the anyway?
Whatever?
Well, and you know, and then they are the anarchists who are just filling in potholes because the city of Portland doesn't feel like doing it.
When I think of the average anarchist activity, it is food, not bombs. That is the activity that I can say more anarchists have done than anything else is give free food to people who need food, which is, to be fair, something the American government treats is incredibly dangerous, inexplicably, but
it's true. I was reading that in Houston they're having trouble with the court cases against the food nut Bumbs defendants because they can't find enough jurors who think that arresting the food nut Bumbs people with made any sense.
Well that's exciting.
Yeah. So the wto protests, some people wearing all blacks through some bricks, through some windows of corporations that were killing people in other countries. And plenty of current and future elves were at these protests. Some of them met in the streets and fell in love. A bunch of them grew and sold weed to finance all the arson So if you're wondering, the only thing I found about how they financed the arsen Some of them were like software engineers, and some of them were like growing and
selling weed. One activist who got involved around this time was Daniel McGowan. He's one of the more famous elves because a camera crew followed him as he awaited his trial. So there's this documentary called If a Tree Falls from twenty eleven that tells his life story. In the year two thousand, they reached their peak. It seems like in terms of membership and or actions, I count fifteen actions by one list across the country. Only some of them, maybe most of them were the family, but I'll run
through some of the other folks. At least some of the other folks who were caught a lot of people who did this stuff just were never caught. There's a man named Trey Arrow. Did you ever hear about Trey Arrow in Portland as a kid. No, let me talk you about this local celebrity from twenty years ago.
It's our cool name.
Though I know he legally changed his name to Trey Arrow. He chose it.
That's even cooler.
He chose it. And then like as he would get in court, they would keep being like, whatever his old name is, and he kept being like, I have already done all the legal paperwork. My name is Trey Arrow. Like the legal entity you're referring to is not on trial anyway. East he was famous for three things, at
least famous in Portland. In July two thousand, there was this protest downtown outside the US four Service office trying to stop logging at a place called Eagle Creek, And so Trey just free climbed the building with no ropes or anything, on the spur of the moment, and then lived for eleven days on a nine inch ledge on the building. What.
Yeah, the LEGE party is shocking to me. The climbing. I'm like, yeah, people do that sometimes. Why not have fun? The LEGE is stressing me out?
Yeah? No, I think in the end people like got him ropes and stuff, but I'm I actually don't. I don't know, okay, that feel. But I moved it town shortly after all this.
Yeah, yeah, Well it's funny because in the end I was yeah, oh, I was just gonna say it. Yeah, it's funny because I was born here and then we lived in Honolulu and came back here in the summer of two thousand and one, so there's this like five year blank spot where I don't know, but it yeah, I guess remember coming in like anyone cool was living on a lege. I know that was how I got out of my uh my, my, my, my service.
But no, you have this is just your all aspect.
For someone who wants to live on a lege. Yeah yeah, really, I was sneaking back and I'm the one who rides the containers back and forth across the Pacific. It's not for sex trafficking victims. It's for people who need an alibi.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so you you got out of your service, but but other people didn't. And Eagle Creek was saved not by him alone, but his actions did draw fuck ton tent of attention to the cause like every day's newspaper was like, is the hippie with no shoes still on the ledge? Yes, he's still on the ledge.
Uh.
The next thing that he was famous for is that cops dropped him out of a tree sit in October two thousand and one. He was tree sitting. I've talked to some people who knew him, and he wasn't up there with like ropes. He was like, oh shit, this tree needs saving. I'm running up this tree. And then he's like jumping from tree to tree as people like try and cut down these trees and stuff, and they would like blast shitty music and stuff at him to keep him from sleeping. And he fell sixty feet and
he survived. He broke his pelvis in his ribs.
Yeah God.
And then he became famous for a third thing that wound up overshadowing the other ones. He and three other people burned some logging trucks and claimed it for the Earth Liberation Front. One of them got caught and snitched out the other three. Two of those remaining three got caught and then Trey Arrow I think was like a broken pelvis, but I'm not sure the timeline here. He fucked off up to Canada and lived on the right. He was on the run for more than two years.
But then he I guess he just couldn't help himself. He saw injustice and he had to do something. So he got arrested in Canada while shoplifting bolt cutters. And look, if you're on the run, gets someone else's shoplift your bolt cutters.
I mean, and why didn't he already have bolt cutters?
I think you, I think you get rid of them after each action. Ah, and then you can't buy them because then there's a record of them havn't been bought. But yeah, I know you think that this man is just made of bolt cutters.
He he gives big bolt cutter energy. Yeah, totally, Like come on.
And so he was arrested and he was eventually extradited. There's a big fight. He was like, I'm not going to get a fair trial in the US. What are you talking about? And they were like, we're sending you to the US for Canada. We don't give a shit. And he spent a year in federal prison.
Oh god, which from what I understand, can be even worse than the regular kind.
Another arson case was more Eugene tree Sitters, Critter, and Free were their names. I don't think they legally changed their names to these. And they burned some trucks at an oil company and some SUVs at a dealership in the year two thousand, but cops were surveilling them already and caught them right off. Critter got five and a half years in prison. Free got for doing some damage at a dealership, got twenty two years and eight months in prison.
Oh my god.
Yeah, this made almost no one happy. Like, people weren't like, we love this punk anarchist kid who sets things on fire that he doesn't like very p people were of that point of view, and awful lot of people were of the point of view of like, twenty three years in prison for this, you know. So there was an eight year campaign and in two thou eight his sentence was reduced to ten years, and in December two thousand
and nine he was released. God there are more cases like that, but that's just to give some sense of it. The family was the biggest sell, but it wasn't the only one.
I feel like it's ridiculous to act like there's very much rhyme or reason to overly harsh sentencing a lot of the time. But is the idea that like, if we crack down on suv dealership crimes, then we can stop them from doing anything more impactful than that.
I think, So like this is around, Well we're gonna talk a little bit about the cases against them, but basically, like the whole thing was the government was like, this is the biggest deal in the country. Within a couple of years, the FBI is going to say outright that the ALF and the ELF are the biggest domestic terrorist threat in the country. And this is like shortly after nine to eleven. The not free. He was arrested before then, but like they come out and say, our biggest terror
domestic terror threat is the ELF. That's never heard anyone, and like everyone who like lives in New York City is like, I just saw people jumping out of a building. What are you trying to tell me is terrorism right now? You know?
Yeah?
And there's actually there's actually some interviews with FBI agents. There's one FBI agent who is a big part of doing their case in particular, was on this podcast series called burn Wild that the BBC did, and she talks about how it was politically motivated. The sentencing and the whole thing, just like how much attention was put into it, And there's other people who are saying like, yeah, like
it was industry lobbying. Basically, infrastructure is the stuff that is like we don't realize how much of a fence they put around it, Like we don't realize how much you're not, Like, I mean, we see it a lot with what's happening right now with pipeline protests, right and the the crazy sentencing that people are facing for civil disobedience to try and stop fossil fuel infrastructure that is literally killing us all. But the oil must flow is like the foundation of the American state.
Yeah, apparently, which I as a little kid, you learn all this stuff that you're like, I guess grown ups, no more complicated stuff, And then you grow up and you're like, no, they don't. They just ignore it. Right, there's a finite number of dead dinosaurs, but let's not worry.
About it totally. And that is what all of this is around, is like people trying to grapple with whether or not they're taking seriously. Like if we sit there and say this is happening, global warming is real, what can be done and this is not necessarily the answer. Like, one of the reasons I wanted this episode is to talk about what did and didn't work, about what they did, what they did and didn't accomplish, how it did and
didn't impact different things. But considering like, the thing that we are up against is apathy slash like sticking your head in the sand. But the only way to save the planet is to buy things from advertisers.
God, it's going to be something horrible. I just know it. I just know it.
Yeah, I hope it's an ad for buying a new car. Here you go, and we're back from cynically engaging in the thing that pretty much everyone does, which is whatever. In two thousand and one, the family hit two more targets on the same night in two states, and then they stopped. They called it quits, not because they got caught. They quit because, as best as I can understand it, they fucked up. They still never hurt anybody, not physically, but they weren't all happy with what they had done.
On May twenty first, two thousand and one, the Elf burned an office and thirteen trucks at a tree farm in Oregon because they believed that that farm was growing genetically engineered poplar trees. They were wrong. That had been the previous owners. The current owners used traditional methods. They also burned down the office of a genetic engineering researcher at the University of Washington. The fire spread and destroyed
an entire and unrelated research library. Burning libraries and terrorizing random tree farmers was not on their agenda. Everyone is a bit cagy about exactly how it went when they met up to talk, right, because everyone wants to only say what they say and not what other people said, because people have decent security culture.
Right.
But near as I can tell, the group was split. Some folks wanted to keep going, maybe even escalate, and other people threw in the towel and the group disbanded. In the end, about twenty people had done about forty five million dollars in sabotage wow and destroyed the only horse packing plant on at least the West Coast. Other cells and individuals carried on for years across the country, but the peak had passed before September eleventh, and before
the crackdown against them. Pretty much the FBI didn't forget about them their elephantine that way, they announced that the ELF and the ALF were the number one domestic terrorist threat in the country. Terrorism. Of course, this is shortly after nine to eleven is the biggest boogeyman word in the English language. Funding for anti terrorism is at an all time high. So by labeling this terrorism, two things happened. One they got a fuck ton more money, and two
they had to show results. And now you might think, oh, I don't know, the far right movement that I just killed one hundred and sixty eight people in Oklahoma City in nineteen ninety five might be a place of direction some energy, or the anti abortion extremists who were killing doctors. No, okay, well hear me out. Those are all Republican types I know. Okay, but what about environmental arson like the nine thousand acres
of old growth that had just been burned. Nah, No, it was aimed at the anarchist group that had never heard anyone and had already stopped.
Well, I guess if you have to show results, it's ideal to pick people who aren't currently doing anything, because then you can allege that you were the reason for that.
Totally God. The FEDS called this operation Operation Backfire. The activist called it the Green Scare a period of heightened and almost cartoonishly evil repression of environmental and animal rights activists that absolutely filtered out to like those of us in the above ground environmental movement.
You know.
For example, there's this alf guy, Animal Libration front guy. He's an Indigenous man named Rod Coronado. He'd sunk some whaling chips in the eighties. He'd fire bombed a ton of shit and spent five years in prison in the nineties for it. So he'd done it, you know, and then he kept doing it. He sabotaged a lion hunt in two thousand and four and did eight months for it. And in two thousand and three he was giving a talk.
Someone from the audience asked him how he'd built the incendiary devices that he had used, that he had already been convicted of and served time for. Is the kind of thing you're supposed to be able to talk about once you've done the time, you're allowed to talk about the crime. That's why it rhymes. He answered the question. Three years later, in two thousand and six, during the height of the Green Scare, he was arrested for having answered a question from the audience. In two thousand and
three and he spent a year in prison for it. What, which is why I'm not going to talk about how they did any.
Of the shit they did.
Yeah, God, later this man will spend four months in prison because he accepted a friend request on Facebook from Mike Rozell, one of the founders of Earth First.
This would also be a great thing for people freaking out about the First Amendment to focus on, but obviously instead they're bothered by their nieces disliking their Facebook posts.
Right totally. One kid, Chris McIntosh did five thousand dollars of damage to McDonald's by like lighting the roof on fire, and he was given eight years in prison for five thousand dollars with a damage.
Well that McDonald's. You know, there are our culture's most vulnerable subjects.
Di Irish they said, I hate crime, and then there's this other group of people who are a story in and of themselves that I'm not gonna The short version is the FEDS put an infiltrator into the anarchist movement who built up her own cell of the Elf. They never did anything. She bullied them into making plans to
blow up a dam. Over the course of years, and you can see in all of the transcripts that come out because she's tapping everything right, She's like basically like, come on, don't be a pussy, and everyone's like, we actually don't want to do this, and she's like, you're gonna do it. They're all arrested. One of them, Eric McDavid, was sentenced to twenty years in prison. He had literally
not done anything. After nine years in prison, his conviction was overturned when it was revealed that the FBI had withheld thousands of pages of evidence from the trial that would have potentially been like, hey, this is clearly a frame up. You know.
I do not claim to have a nuanced understanding of this, but the way conspiracy chargers work in this country feels very counter toed sort of the basic facts of human nature, which is how a lot of our law operates, you know, but the right because like the basics are that, like from the second that a criminal conspiracy becomes like from
the second you become implicitly part of it. Like if I'm in a room, if you and me and Sophie are like, let's j walk, yeah, yeah, if so, if Sophie's like, I want to make a run for it to cross the street, and.
I am from Los Angeles.
Well I'm thinking of like that's.
I'm like, I'm like, I'm from lah.
Yeah.
That sounds like.
Right, It's like it's it's fine. Yeah, But like say that we go on a on a road trip with our scariest friend who starts talking about, you know, a plan to rob a bank, and we're doing the thing that human beings do where you like don't necess really take something seriously, or you look out for yourself and are like, maybe you're going to do that, but I'm not going to be a part of that, or maybe this will blow over. I don't know, but we don't
affirmatively remove ourselves from the potential conspiracy. And then if they rob a bank all by themselves, then we can be co conspirators in that, you know.
Yeah, or even if you take legal actions that would be otherwise legal in furtherance of that, Like if I was like, h hey, wouldn't it be cool if we reached up into vending machines and took the soda out, you know, and then like later you become a vending machine repair person and you look up a schematic, you know, you can, you can combine two acts of free speech
and create a conspiracy. Not a lawyer, but I have done a lot of research about this particular thing for some reason, Like I was around during the goddamn Green Scare.
Yeah, well yeah, right, And and that's probably a more a better working understanding of the law than you could get in a lot of law schools. Yeah, it's actually news you can use.
Yeah totally. But yeah, so this had happened to Eric McDavid. Eventually his conviction is overturned and he's released after what nine years in prison and all of that started happening. Well, actually the infiltrator joined in two thousand and three, but the two thousand and six is the arrest, which is after the family case is cracked. But just to paint a picture of the Green Scare, the family, though, is
who the Feds really really wanted. They had no idea how to find them, they had no evidence, and they started out with about a dozen agents on the case and is ramped up to three hundred agents working on this case. People were refusing to testify in front of grand jury and spending months in jailer as a result. Someday I'm going to cover grand juries on this and
it'll be one of the most infuriating episodes. In two thousand and one, in March, a punk show in Portland was raided and the attendees were arrested and questioned about the elf. Some of them were like charged initially with kidnapping an officer because of like I think they tried to keep the cop out, or someone closed the door after the cop came in, or like some fucking nonsense. That case fell apart.
Cops can't open doors. Everyone knows that.
No, they need help.
They're very fragile.
Punks in Portland in two thousand and one were being harassed in some case attacked by cops while walking around the street. Cops would be like, are you an anarchist from like their patrol cars, and then like Jesus, sometimes jump them. But the Feds had nothing. Nothing was going to happen unless one of the arsonists snitched. One of
them snitches. It was Donut the bad Boy. The Feds had a suspicion he was involved, and he'd been arrested for car theft on one of the nights of one of the arsons that wasn't him, Like one of the I think one of the arsons that Free and Critter had done. And so they brought in Jake, mister Donut himself, and they lied to him. Cops and feds lie, it is literally their job. It is probable that the arsonists would have been caught if everyone had remembered that cops
are lying to you if they're talking. They listed off all this stuff they had evidence against him about, like the car theft and drugs and stuff he did hard drugs, and then at the end they were like, and the arsons, you will spend the rest of your life in prison if you don't tell us about the arsens, which we totally already know about, and you have to wear a wire and go around to all your old friends and get them to confess to.
It.
Took him twenty minutes to decide, and he gave in.
I think there's something very statistic about, you know, a country where you know, the FBI sort of law enforcement agencies. Generally, the culture and or cult of masculinity that we have is so obsessed with solidarity and not betraying your buddies, and then when you know, when they've decided to marginalize a group of people, as less than a human. The first thing they do is, you know, basically make it impossible for people to not betray each other's trust. No,
that's a something quite evil about it. Yeah, and they're like proud of it.
In a tree falls, you can watch one of the FEDS who is involved in this. He has a shit eating grin on his face as he's talking about what he did. He thinks he is so clever, and he was like he succeeded, right, But it's yeah, it's just so interesting to me that like pretty big into honesty as like an ethical concern, because I think that everyone needs to be able to make decisions with the best
available information. And we have completely accepted not just that police use violence obviously that is a contentious issue, but how much it is a crime to lie to cops and it is not a crime for cops to lie to you, and that's just like normal and accepted that the state is constantly lying to us like it's his job.
Yeah, you know, and that is the kind of thing that if you accept that as part of a functioning society, then you can accept a lot of other things. You know, totally none of it good. Yeah, So they put a wire in his baseball cap, and they send them around the country to talk to old friends, and he gets them to talk about the crimes. He's less like, hey man, what do you think we did on the night of
you know, blah blah blah nineteen ninety seven. He's like, oh, man, I got a hangover almost as bad as the night the morning after the night of July seventh, nineteen ninety seven.
What were we doing in that night? Yeah, what were we doing? Instead he did it kind of like he was like he would just get people to say things like, hey, stop worrying. They don't have any DNA connecting us to anything. The only way that we'll go down is if someone talks. So he gets them to confess. But not like I carried the jug up that hill or whatever the fuck I mean. I haven't read all the transcripts. I've read like bits of them, but that's what I pulled out
of it. M On December seventh, two thousand and five, six of them were arrested across the country all at once. It soon was thirteen indictments, six women and seven men. A bunch of people fled avalon the supposed leader. He was arrested. He was also the first to get out of prison because on December twenty first, the solstice, he wrote a note and then put a plastic bag over his head, and his note read to my friends and supporters to help them make sense of all these events
that have happened so quickly. Certain human cultures have been waging war against the Earth for millennia. I chose to fight on the side of bears, mountain lions, skunks, bats, cigarros, cliff rose, and all things wild. I am just the most recent casualty in that war. But tonight I have made a jail break. I am returning home to the Earth, to the place of my origins. Bill twelve, twenty one oh five, the Winter Solstice. I almost did that without crying.
Of the ten initial defendants, six took cooperating plea deals. They snitched each other out. Four of them did not. Nathaniel Block, Daniel McGowan, Jonathan Paul, and Johanna Zacher all refused to cooperate, or rather, they took non cooperating plea deals. They didn't take it to court. They said, yes, I did it, and I will tell you everything that I did, and I will not tell you anything that anyone else did.
And here's the thing about cops line. The ones who turned on each other for later sentences did not receive later sentences. There is an excellent analysis in a proper spreadsheet form available from the publisher Crime Think, in an essay called Green Scared that's worth checking out, and just google Green Scared Crime Think and you'll get it. The non cooperating defendants got an average of almost seven years
in prison. The cooperating defendants got an average of seven and a half years and they had to do those years in prison without the support of the movement that they had sold out. In essence, they sold their souls, but not for pennies, but for checks that bounced. Suzanne Savoy, one of the cooperators, later told a doctor documentary team, I never in my life thought I'd be cooperating with the FBI. I always thought I would be able to stay strong and stay true to my values and beliefs.
But I guess sometimes you aren't as strong as you think. And I say these things because I'm not trying to point a finger at her and be like, see she's weak, she sucks, Like am I right? Rather, she's right when she says that when no one knows what they would do in that situation. It's the classic George Orwell, rats in a cage on your face situation. And that's why it's worth pointing out cops are lying. The deal they are offering you is not the deal they are offering you.
They'll say they'll take the rats in the cage off your face if you just talk. They don't. The thing that gets the rats in the cage off of your face is movement support, prison support and movement lawyers, the kinds of people who don't tend to work with people who have cooperated with an investigation. Daniel McGowan was sent to a special terrorist prison, a communications Management unit or CMU, and he was He was convicted of being like a
lookout twice. That was his big thing, you know. So he sent a special terrorist prison and in special terror prison you get one fifteen minute call per week and you get one visit per month behind class. Later he got out and he was in a halfway house and he wrote an article for the Huffington Post about CMU's about contact communications management units, and he was arrested for it.
Political pressure got him released the next day later. In two thousand and nine, Justin Salons was arrested in China for making hash out of wild marijuana. He was like, on a family trip to Italy and he was like, shit, I'm going to come back to the States where doesn't like the US, And so he went to China. But you know, a boy's got to eat. So he was
making hash and wild marijuana and selling it. He spent two years in Chinese prison before he was extradited to the US and then he served the sentence.
Better than making hash out of wild horses.
That's right, that's right. Rebecca Rubin self surrendered in twenty twelve from where she'd fled to in Canada. Both took plea deals, but neither informed on anyone. Both took that non cooperating and I'll tell you what I did. And then Joseph Dibby, he's the most recent arrestee. He's actually out again too. Though he told his father what he was facing, right, He was like that I think him in trouble, and his father was like, well, it's time
to go home. So he went to Syria, which had no extradition treaty to the US, and in order to get out, he fucking mission impossible, this shit. He gave his cell phone to someone to drive to Canada with, and he like got in another cart. I think he had more than one car as a software engineer. And he got in another car and then like took off and I think like had to like lose a tail by like driving. He says, he was like, look, I was a piece of delivery driver. I know how to drive,
you know. He like loses a tail and gets himself to Mexico and I think crosses on foot into Mexico, and ugh. He boards a plane to Syria. He lives in Syria and he's doing all this environmental engineering work. He does amazing work and like biodiesel and this all this stuff right, and then the Syrian Civil War breaks out and he's like, this is not safe. I will die if I stay here, and so he goes to Russia to wait out the war. But the war in
Syria keeps not ending. In Russia, he did environmental work. He wound up married, but then at one point he leaves the country. He like flies to South America for business I think, to help like a worker cooperative of
some kind. And then on the way back through Cuba, flying back to Russia in twenty eighteen, biometrics pick him up and the Cuban authorities arrest him, oh God, torture him just like almost kill him from dehydration, and then hand him over to the US, where while he was in jail, a white supremacist broke his jaw and permanently
disfigured him. In the end, Joseph he wound up sentenced to time served in November twenty twenty two, and he never informed on anybody, and he the judge's speech about it is actually really interesting and it's kind of like, hey, like fire is not the solution, but mass incarceration is pretty bad. And also you're doing all this like work where like he was developing these carbon capturing KELP buoys
in coordination within indigenous communities in Alaska. He's a fucking cool guy as far as I can tell him.
Never met him.
And there's one woman, Josephine's Sunshine Overacre, who is still on the run the fedes of no clue where she is. Her mother once helped host fugitives in Canada, men who are escaping the draft from the US, and her mother is proud of her or wherever she is. Jake mister Donut didn't do any time for the arsons. Instead, in twenty eleven, he was arrested for possession and manufacture of
heroin and sentenced for five years. And I haven't mentioned all of the non family prisoners, but there's one ELF prisoner that I'm aware of who's still in jail in the United States, and he's a trans man named Marius Mason. He was I believe the first person to transition in federal custody, or at least the first man to transition in federal custody. He was arrested for arsons in Michigan when his husband, with whom he'd done those arsons, snitched
him out. She was married to this man named Frank Ambrose, who was caught disposed evidence in a dumpster and he rolled right away on his spouse. There's an active support campaign for Marius that's worth checking out. Long term prisoners
are often forgotten, and they should not be. Most of his support comes from the anarchist community, which makes sense, but I would argue, at the end of the day, all of us live on planet Earth and it is getting hotter, and there's an awful lot of people who've tried to address that in whatever ways.
They know how.
A lot of people have given up everything in the fight for the earth, and they deserve our support, whether or not we specifically think that their tactics are what should be emulated. But I would argue, right now, no one knows what the fuck will work. Yeah, that's my rousing conclusion.
I feel like if we knew, we would be doing it. Yeah, this is like a very random citation, but you know how things get stuck in your head, especially if you encounter them around her before the age like twenty one. Yeah,
there's the movie The Constant Gardner. Okay, it has a dedication I know, has a dedication in the credits, which you know has been long enough that I forget who this is about or why, although I once knew, But it goes for a Vett Peter Powley, who lived and died giving a damn, And that like has stuck in my brain, is like the idea of like living and dying giving a damn, and that you know, if we're talking about activism of whatever kind, it's always about or
it should always be about giving a damn, And that it feels like you know, whatever that means to you that we are currently in some kind of ideological war between giving a damn and not yeah, which is maybe overly simplistic but feels true to me.
No, because I think we're it's sometimes we want to not give a damn, partly because we don't know. There's the things that we think might work but are dangerous, and then there's the things. But then on some level we're also like, we just don't know, we don't know what will work.
You know.
There is one way of looking at these folks is like the only reason it didn't work is that it didn't keep going. There's another way of looking at it as saying this disrupted and broke up a growing radical environmental movement, you know, or a grassroots environmental movement like
what happened with Veil. But on the other hand, you could also it just it galaxy brains up and up and up and keeps flipping back and forth, and you know, because you're like, oh, well, it disrupted the environmental movement in Veil, and then you're like, well, yeah, but that movement didn't succeed. It had already lost and the cutting had started. And then you're like, yeah, but this didn't succeed either, you know. And the thing that is a no brainer for me is not playing into the division
between above ground and underground movements. The people who deserve the blame for environmental destruction are the people who are destroying the planet, not people who are fighting against that destruction, even though some of those people are fighting against it in ways that we don't approve of. And that goes in all directions. You know, that's the part that I feel clear on. But I absolutely, I mean one, never get your advice about strategy from fucking talking head in
your ears. I'm very aware of how parasocial, Like, of all of the I have avoided talking about shit that's happened in the past twenty or thirty years. I usually talk about things that happened a long time ago. And one of the reasons is that I don't want people to think that they listen to a podcast and know
what to do, you know, yeah, oh yeah. But I chose to do this episode because I think that it is the kind of thing that is like, it's worth people thinking about what is necessary to try and address the problems we're facing.
But I don't know, yeah, or or you know, or to question the assumptions we have about what does and doesn't work, because yeah, you know, I think that the time has passed for looking for a single answer because we don't have a single problem totally.
And I mean, in some ways it's also just how do we want to live? How do we what was the constant gardener living and acting like you give a damn yeah?
Live, living and dying giving a damn yeah.
And I think overall, the slow hard work of day in and day out movement building and the slow hard work of I think that overall, that is what I choose, and I just I want to not choose to condemn people who pick differently as long as people are living and dying like they give a damn, they get it wrong.
Right, And that's you know, I mean, that's the thing that if we fall into the sort of FBI versus activists quote unquote legal versus quote unquote illegal mindset, then suddenly it becomes respectability versus caring totally.
And then yet, like you know, people like no one's no one's an angel in these stories, you know, like people are doing things like don't burn libraries down, you know, yeah, they knew it too, but they knew it too late.
Yeah, I don't know. And yet, you know, you compare that to somebody like the Weathermen, who I feel like blew up quite a few people, and it's like, you know, that's intentionality is still very important.
I think the Weathermen only ended up blowing up themselves.
Okay, see, I'm just my history here is very casual. I'm sure you're right. I know you're right.
I'm only eighty percent on this, but I believe that the only I get.
My history from Forrest Gump.
So yeah, now, I'm like, this is the kind of thing I, of all people, should know off the top of my head.
But but it's it's definitely there's more all over your head than in my.
But they certainly were less directly caring about Like the social movement that they came out of had far less of a problem with armed violence than the social movement that their celebration front came out of. But it's also like, I don't know, I could talk about this all day. Yeah, what is dead we should talk about? Is you wrong about?
What?
A segue? Thanks?
Yeah, you're wrong about I hope is sometimes about cool people and sometimes about people who tried, and sometimes about people who you just don't know what they were thinking, but they had to have been thinking something, and so I'm like in an overly philosophical frame, So I'm like, what is your wrong about? But yeah, I do a
podcast calls You're wrong about. It's a show where I have rotating guests where every couple weeks somebody comes on and tells me about a chapter in history that is commonly misunderstood, or I tell them about a chapter in history that is commonly misunderstood and that I have stayed up late too many nights thinking about. And it is very preoccupied with the question of how do we live
and die? Giving a damn? And I feel like my answer is that, or one of my answers is that we study history because the questions were trying to answer now are the same questions often that have bothered people for as long as we have a written record of people being bothered by questions. And one of the other themes is that you don't have to be smart to deserve a nice life, which is a thing that we don't realize we believe in America until you argue against it.
I think, and then I have a show called You Are Good, where we talk about movies and the feelings they give us and how we learn how to define ourselves by watching whatever we could find on VHS or on a random streaming service, and how we shape ourselves with little bits of culture like a hermit crab. Those are my shows.
I love that concept and I think about that all the time, about the way that we see who we can be based on the heroes that we see in media and how they define us and how we become them as we age. And yeah, that's cool.
Yeah, yeah, And I feel like you know, there is it's nerve wracking to make media and want people to hear what you're saying and also not put too much stock in it and to find, you know, answer their own questions and not act like any one person talking in their ear has the answers. But yeah, yeah, you're making that media that can help people find the people that they can model themselves after on the show. So it's so nice to come visit and be a part of it a little bit.
Well, you should listen to the person whispering in your ear when she tells you to go listen to Well, if you like this, podcast. You'll like Sarah's podcasts, and you should also give all of your money to our animals, not animals as like a general concept, but specifically the three of us, just our pets.
I've been influenced by this YouTuber who's giving like chicken hearts and freeze dried muscles to her cat, and I really feel like my cats have probably been suffering in silence on their mediocre diet. So yeah, it's very true. It's an issue facing our country.
My dog eats the fanciest kibble that's still kibble that I can still buy in the town I live in, and is really picky about it, and it's like, really the fancy kibble again. And I told the vet that he doesn't like his food all that much, and she's like, what do you give him? And I was like the following that I'm not being paid to advertise, I'm not going to say. And she's like, but that's the good stuff, and I was like, I know, I can't even get it at the grocery store. I have to go to
tractor supply. I've probably told this story on this podcast before, but I think about it all the time because I feed him every day. And every day is like maybe later when I'm hungry.
So funny, but if.
You want to hear me write about my life, and I actually, for example, I did a substack post a couple weeks ago as you are looking for this, called how can we Stare at the Sun or how to confront the Unimaginable? And it's about, you know, it's the stuff that I try not I try to keep it mostly like history focused when I talk about this, whereas this is an essay where I talk more about how do we look at mourning the death of winter and how do we look at what actions we feel are
appropriate to take? So you can check that out on my substack that's free. Half of my posts are free. The other half you have to give me food with which to buy dog food for my dog, and those are the ones that are more personal. And then I'll also say you should listen to Hood Politics with prop which is on cool Zone Media and is one of my favorite news shows because cool Zone Media doesn't miss
and they don't pay me to say that. Well, I guess they on some level pay me because I am hired by cool Zone Media, but I just actually genuinely like the shows that we produce and I'm proud to be part of it. So if you guys think to plug that.
Yeah, all right, that time's too perfect.
We'll see you next Monday. Bye, Ronye.
Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.