Part Two: Ngo Van & Vietnamese Resistance Before the Vietnam War

then I'm like it shouldn't be. This is bad. Yeah, mixed feelings on the on the good weather, I hear. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our future where our seasons are summer, summer, summer, hell Mouth and those are four seasons. Maybe like an ice storm as a tree every like a few years. Oh yeah, totally like during any of the seasons. Yeah. Yeah, that's exciting. I'm really excited about the future. Sophie is our producer. High Sophie, how are you.

I had the exact same conversation with my mom to there. I was like, oh, it's so nice. I'll look at this blue sky and then I was like, oh, ship, yeah, it's probably not supposed to be that way. This is probably you probably want as much rain as you can get in the winter. Yeah yeah, I was like, oh shit, not good. I was like, ah hoo hoo. Yeah, but anyways, glad to be here. Yeah. Is our audio engineer and our theme music was written for us by a woman.

This is part two of our two part series, which, for those who are doing the math, means it's the second and final part about the Previetnam War resistance French colonialism in Vietnam. And of course we've got two protagonists we've declared cool. There's no von who wrote a memoir called In the Crossfire that a decent chunk of this is based on any anything that feels narrative of I'm

probably getting from that memoir. Any other cool person is Vietnamese people who funked up everyone in the world who sucked with them, And don't you forget it? No, I hope, and no one listening this ever forgets it and tries to colonize Vietnam. I don't really want them to colonize anywhere. If you're listening to this, I'm indifferent, Okay, I will come out on the I don't know if it counts this colonization if it's a planet with no living life

forms on it. I've got like mixed feelings about Mars colonization, but I don't think it could be understood in the same context as colonization of people. That's my um wild cancellable take. Interesting. You look like you don't agree with me here. You know, I just when I hear Mars and colonization of Mars, I think about Octavia Butler's Parable of the Sower and Talents Well, and then that's as far as I get, because then I think about that book and then I stopped listening. I'm sorry. Yeah, I

know that's fair. I'm really excited for Elon Musk to lead an expeditionary um mission to Mars as well as he has led Twitter. I hope he dies, Yeah exactly, I mean no, yeah, and it's on tape. Yeah yeah, I want to see it. Yeah. People try and spread around on what's left of Twitter. That's like, you know, you know that man is a dead man switch for Twitter, though, you know that if he doesn't, if he doesn't press

the button once every hour, all of Twitter goes down. Yeah, I felt like you might have been dying yesterday based on how poorly the app was working. Yeah. Is it just like connected to his spinal cord you think? Oh? Probably like like pure Cyder tracks exactly. Yeah, fair enough. Oh, I hope it's a two way okay, And um, so where we left off, resistance, the French Indo China was starting to heat up again, and to be honest, never really actually stopped being hot, but it would, like, you know,

cycle between hot and very hot. Communists and nationalists and religious groups and bandits and just a whole goddamn ton of people who didn't want to listen to the French are doing some fighting. And we've made it up to nineteen thirty. Our hero No Vaughan is about seventeen or eighteen at this time. He's not quite on the main

stage yet, but he's starting to be around. For the events that happened in garrison of Vietnamese troops led by the French mutinied as part of a conspiracy by a secret society more than fifteen hundred people, because once again, secret societies are doing all kinds of ship. Unfortunately, the leaders of this group were guillotined but many of the rank and file fled the country and they're going to come back later. They're like, they try to do this mutiny,

it fails. All their leaders get guillotined because guillotine is

not actually a symbol of working class resistance. And I was just gonna say that last episode we talked about like the French being like no revolutions like are thing we we and so they're gonna bring guillotines, and Okay, I'm just okay, I just want to make sure everybody heard that the guillotine fucking hundreds or thousands of Vietnamese colonial subjects who were revolting against them, um during this time, which I think they've only gotten one king, and so

I feel like one king to all of these codes. Anyway. Yeah, um, I wanted to like the guillotine as a symbol, but I no longer do. Damh. I should maybe get that tattoo removed them. See, I always liked it because I always thought it was the symbol that contained its own critique. You know, It's like being like, hey, sometimes violence and revolutionary situations might be necessary, but we all know it could easily go too far. Because that's what I thought

that we all do. The guillotine meant was revolutionary violence going too far, but instead people just completely on ironically liked it. And I'm like, yeah, there are other means that people used to get rid of tyrants that um anyway, So all of these the rank and file who lose uh and flee the country, they show up again later and just continue throwing down. They just like kind of take a break, come back later, and they're fucking cool.

Peasants are running around torching official records with kerosene. Poor workers in the city are rioting against the capitulation task tax tax that's the word I can't pronounce this time, and being gunned down for it. And news about all these revolts are spreading around by illegal newspapers. Many of them are basically zenes going hand to hand between workers

and peasants. We love a good scene, I know, and between workers and peasants, I like literally mean both directions in a really cool way that we're gonna keep talking about a little bit um. This whole like dichotomy of like the workers versus the peasants. That's like fucking nonsense, And I think the Vietnamese resistance shows it really well. By the end of nineteen thirty is just open revolt

all over the place. Prisoners are being set free, cop shops are being ransacked, Whole villages and then regions where the French do not dare step foot. And importantly to our story, when peasants take over an area, they tend to form democratic councils to administer the region. And there's a word for this type of local rule by democratic council.

That word is Soviet. Because that's what people forget, is that the word Soviet means fucking local control of a reach anyway or upon It's Soviet, excellent, excellent, which okay, but like instead of like saying like say levies, so be it like okay, anyway, so vit. I want to quote no Von directly here. In September, in the villages of Naen, which had been abandoned by the notables and the local militia. Not is this I'm no longer quoting not and is this whole big fucking province in north

central Vietnam, the peasants began organizing themselves into soviets. They took over the administration, and without touching the landed property, proceeded to share out the communal land that had been annexed by the landlords. They confiscated rice reserves and distributed them to the starving, allocated agricultural work, collectively abolished taxes, imposed lower farm rents on the landowners, and launched a

literacy campaign. The Soviets extended themselves to the provinces of Ha, tin Con, Low, thak Ha and home San the French no longer quoting. The French responded by just carpet bombing people's because of course they did. Hundreds of people were killed at a time. But this is like literally the coolest thing that I can imagine in any episode I ever do, Like people fucking taking over their areas and running them through democratic councils and like const remaining the

land evenly. It just doesn't get better than that, No, it doesn't. I mean that's what it really should be all about, like all of our work. Yeah, totally. The cities are fighting too. The revolt is less intense in the cities. I think basically there's like less capacity to actually take and hold terrain strikes in marches and the occasional assassination are happening in the cities. The government being French set up the guillotine in front of Saigon's central prison.

Over the over a few years of this revolt, there's twelve thousand political arrests with almost a hundred beheadings, and no Von he's seventeen or so at this point, and he's bicycling back to his village with the zines rolled up in the handlebars to distribute among the peasants, which just fucking rules. That's creative. I know, I would never think to look there, and he's reading them to people who can't read. When he gets there soon he's organizing

with people at his work. They can't even say words like labor union, so instead they build a mutual aid society, one of these things where everyone like takes care of each other or whatever, and they pull money to take care of each other, and they meet at under the guise of like birthday parties and ship because in order to have the French don't let more than like I can remember if it's seventeen or twenty seven, some low number of people. M Vietnamese people meet in one place

at any given time without getting like special permission. That's so funned, because we have such big families yes, kids, one of thirteen. Yeah, like our our family, Like my mom like it's like your fifth cousin. And I'm like what yeah, yeah, all right. Well, and so they can get permission for birthday parties and so they use those.

The birthday parties become the labor organizing meetings, and then the coolies, the least paid people at the job, the at his place, they go on strike, and so he goes up and he's like, hey, our our quote unquote mutual aid fund, it is now your strike fund. Ah sick, yeah, do what you want with it. And then he acts as an interpreter for the strikers and they win a modest pay raise. So this is how he gets into labor organizing. Inasmuch as anyone is organizing the huge revolt,

there's two major players. Both are Communists. Um, there's the Communist Party, which takes its orders from the common turn the Bolsheviks up in Russia and they're already doing some wacky stuff. They had a revolutionary tribunal. It's like, way before they have any power any territory, they have a revolutionary tribunal for one of their own members and sentenced him to death and kill him because he fell in love with another comrade and that took his mind off

his duties. That is at least how it is presented by no Van. The person who ever sees this tribunal is Tom Duke Tongue, who later succeeds Ho Chi Minh and is like this great revolutionary hero or whatever. And one of the other people who was also part of the like murder of this guy, ends up being like second in commando ho chie Men and stuff later down

blood in. Yeah. Um, that's the State Communists. Then there's the Communist Opposition, the Communist Left Opposition group uh not a incredibly original name, and they basically are the communist who don't take order from Russia. I like them more so that my bias is going to be towards them, and no Van is with them soon enough, and they're more or less trout skifts. They are Trotskyists, which basically at this point is like a Communist who doesn't like Stalin.

Anarchists are there and involved in all this struggle too, but not to the same degree. I believe it's isolated individuals and small groups. I haven't been able to find more information specifically about that yet. So the people who are the major players and a lot of this organizing stuff who are like die hard about one ideology or another. They are not most people. Um, most people are poor workers and peasants who are like, I'm a funk up the French and taking care of each other sounds good,

rather than being like specifically ideologically committed. And so you'll see the majority of people who are the actual fighters will shift allegiances back and forth. Um, it's not just like the left opposition, like yeah, these two different communist tendencies like kind of go back and forth a lot. The major players of both parties get arrested and exiled at the end of this whole nine one thing. Um there sentenced to their exile or sense to hard labor

or given the old chopity um. By the end of nineteen thirty one, the revolt is crushed for good and France still rules Vietnam to this day. Just just kidding. They're very chumba womba. They get right back up again and they do something particularly cool that imprisoned journalist on nin he's out now and as of ninety one he gets out and he refuses to align himself to one

of these communist parties or another. Um later after his death, the Communist Party is like, Oh, his whole thing about refusing to align to parties, it's because he liked us. It was just to get people to join the Communist Party. That's why he refused to it. Yeah, yeah, he um. Not only but he refused to join the parties, the left, opposition or the you know the Trotsky story of the Stalinists,

but he was completely down to work with them. And his whole thing was that he kept the two together for years, like long after the rest of the world where the Trotskis and the Stalins are murdering each other, he's holding them together together with the Party, communists, opposition, communists and anarchists. He starts a newspaper called The Struggle. Um it's in French, not Vietnamese. And the reason it's in French is because the French belief in free speech

in French. Oh okay, got it. I'm with you. If you live in Psigan at this point, you can have a journal with free speech as long as it's in French. If it's in Vietnamese, it needs to be approved. Okay. So basically every single article and every single issue is like, please, for the love of God, translate this and tell it to people who don't speak French. And for most of the paper's existence it was legally owned by a white man, an anti colonial Frenchman named Edgar Ganowski, who you to

citizenship to get help them get away with ship. Privilege doesn't save him in the end, he dies in poverty in the early nineteen forties. But he's basically like, there's gonna be a couple um French colonials who are entirely militantly committed to the um anti colonial struggle. Okay, well

they can hang yeah. And this was a particular achievement that it gets the Stalinist and the trotsky Is working together because at this point Stalinists are hunting down and doing the old murder, which is a euphemism for killing um on Trotskyists in Vietnam. There was some piece which really lends credit to the idea that even the party communists there at the end of the day, we're actually looking to free Vietnam more than they were like looking to specifically be like, oh my god, we love the

USSR or whatever the fuck. And the paper starts running political candidates it's like this big central leftist organization basically at this point, and it includes a popular front of candidates from both the Communist Party and the Communist Opposition, and they fund all of this by opening a bar. Interesting I like them. No Van starts writing for it, basically information about what's going on in the plantations. I think through his connections in the villages where he's from.

The peace between the Communist doesn't last. Yeah, the thing about being beholden to a foreign power is that you're beholden to a foreign power, and this thing happens that normally is kind of good. Elsewhere. On May second, Russia and France make friends the Franco Soviet Mutual Assistance Pack, and from their point of view it makes some sense. Right. Um, you know, Hitler is starting to get all hit larry in and history shows pretty clearly that it takes Western

Europe and Russia working together to stop the Nazis. So yeah, that's okay. So like, okay, you you get why why the USSR wants to be friends with friends for a moment, but beholden to foreign power. The Communists are no longer allowed to fight the French part on. Yeah, in Vietnam.

Orders came from the common turn the high the Communist Party that the Vietnamese Communist Party has to stop trying to become free of France because France is Russia's ally, and the Communist Party is beholden to Russia and can't make their own decisions. That's why tons of the Communist Party go along with this. I think a ton of other people stopped being in the Communist Party because there they were willing to be in the Communist Party as a means to get rid of the French the struggle.

That newspaper it doesn't report on any of this because it's trying desperately to keep the peace. But now the Trotskyists are like, Okay, if we don't start doing our own thing, resistance to France is just going to become bourgeois nationalist. It's just going to be you know, the rich people who want to like restore the monarchy or have a bourgeois republic or whatever. Because the state Communis are out of the fight, so uh No, Vaughn and some others decide to act and they formed the League

of Internationalist Communists. And their strategy, which I really like, is that workers peasants and industrial like workers. Both peasants and industrial workers should form action committees, elect delegates and create a bottom up communist revolution. Okay, I got no notes, Um, sign me up. Yeah uh. He still had to keep

his day job and him at night. He and his friends start building a printing press that of salvaged parts and starting an illegal Vietnamese language newspaper called Permanent Revolution, which supported revolt and condemned Russia's open support for French imperialism. That's so sweet. You know, things get spicy again real quick. Wagon drivers go on strike and the internationalist communists support them.

Repression goes after that. Um, the Popular Front newspaper burn of the struggle and his editors end up going back to jail. The paper keeps going even as it's like main people get thrown in jail. Vaughan and his friends have to move their press constantly. They're weird steampunk salvage parts fucking press. That is honestly so cool, just thinking about, like I couldn't do that now with the Internet and like hive YouTube videos. Yeah no, totally, he's a clerk. Yeah,

oh my god. Yeah, it's it's not a coincidence. How many historical revolutionaries. Background is type setting like, but there's hope on the horizon, and people are actually there's a very hopeful period, partly because the workers in France go on strike two in the mid mid thirties. The revolution

feels so close that they can touch it. They set about pulling together a call for workers to, as van put it, stormed the gates of hell then and then um and then they all get arrested, including including Vom, before they could do any storming or even any advocacy of storming. He's he's twenty two or twenty three. But you know who else is prison? Not puppy therapy. No, no, that's true. Yeah, you know what, let's let's stick to puppy therapy. And what was the other one? Was the

other today's sponsor? Yeah, free hot soup. Well everyone, if you want free hot soup, go to food not bombs. If you don't have one, you should start one. Or if you don't like that particular framework, call something else, sup with your friends, super your family. Yeah, call it soup with your fab for your family. And that is the advertiser that's enough that could support, that has enough money to run this podcast, right, well, if we need

the extra money, will use some other ads. Yeah, okay, okay, okay, And we are back and he's about to go to jail. He's twenty two or twenty three at this point. They come into the offices he's working out of and they drag him off and they make him watch as they raid both his mother's house. Basically, they like, I think he probably planned this with his mother, because he's kind of a um. He gets along well with his mom. He tells them. He's like, they're like, where do you live?

And he's like, my mom's house. And so they go to his mom's house and they like take some of those books and stuff from his old room and then they're like, yeah, but where are your clothes? And he's like a ship, you got me. So if you're planning, yeah, if you're planning to use your mom's house, that's the place you claim to live, you need to keep enough clothes there to make it believable. So then they go to his own house and they raid it as well,

and at this point he's like, I'm in it. This is my life, Like okay, I I mean he's already started groups, he's already been working on this stuff. But he's like, this is this is the moment. And then his quote unquote civilizers take him to jail and torture the ship out of him. Humans are very creative at exactly two things, execution and torture. I'm not gonna read tell you about this particular torture, but it's one i'd never heard of before. It sucked. And then they sent

him to prison, which also sucked. And they while in prison with along with his other prisoners, he started organizing because of course you do. Because I can't stop. We'll stop, Yeah, he said, organizers to prison. You're getting an organized prison. The twenty or so prisoners in a cell elected him Delicate, and he was tasked with making demands of the prison.

First it was we need another drug of water. So when they came in the screws came in the morning, he was like, hey, we need another drug of water and they were like what. He's like, we needed to drug of water, and so they drag him off in front of the head jailer who screams at him, says I'm going to disembowel you, holds up the book of French rules, and then gives them another drug of water. Okay. Every morning thereafter, the prisoners compiled a list of their

needs and delivered them to the guards. Yes, and they do the best they can. Life sucks in the prison, but his family walks all the way from the village to see him. When they can. They all pass news about the prison out to the radical press. And the one upside of the Franco Russian Pact is that it lightens some of their sentencing, probably because communism was no longer considered the enemy of the French people. But he still is taken in front of a judge and gets

a year for running a newspaper. That's, you know, in the scheme of things. Maybe not, yeah, exactly, I mean I personally would not. I'm not like ya, No, I

don't want to Yeah, yeah, no, totally. It's it's I mean, that's one of the things is like the prison system in the United States is so nightmarish that fairly regularly I read about these incredibly horrible regimes where they're perfectly willing to carpet bomb people, where prison is like roughly equivalent or a little bit nicer than the United States prisons, right, And I'm not trying to paint the French colonial prison is nice. I'm trying to specifically say that America is

a hellscape. A lot of prisoners were in there for ship like raised a red flag on a tree in his village or read out a leaflet on a street.

Some of them had five years extra tagged on for every time they shouted down with French imperialism during their sentencing, which at that point, like some of these people were just like just fucking kept yelling at yeah, and no matter how long they got sentenced to French imperialism last at the longest you could possibly pretend forty more years um by most standards, substantially less than that, most standards less than ten more years m. Outside of prison, people

kept revolting. Rice planters, brick makers, sugar refiner, soap maker, street car drivers all go on strike. The rubber plan plantations such as our friend the Michelin rubber plantation. The workers go on strike there, including against the kind of thing that you would not imagine needing to go on strike against. What is it the fact that there are private prisons on this plantation just for workers. That must

be a widely deeply felt issue. That makes sense, though yeah, you imagine if I mean the Amazon whereas also sound like help I amount of they just like literally had private prisons in them. Twenty coal miners go on strike. Coal miners are gonna come back really awesome, A little bit okay. In Saigon, striking workers are fed by peasants from the countryside, because again, ship happens when you get the peasants and the workers working together. Yeah. Uh, sawmill workers,

saw millers occupy their workshops. Oh good old sit down. Yeah. And these revolts take on more and more of a syndicalius tendency of intention and only specifically named as such syndicalist tendency a bottom up communism um, and like largely is being done not necessarily. I can't tell whether it's being done by the opposition communists or whether it's being done with the style of communism that they advocate. Mm hmm, because after all, the Communist Party wasn't organizing against imperialism

at this point. There were buds with imperialism at this point. Um. Now, to be fair, tell that to all the imprisoned Communist Party anti imperialists who are in prison. Like anyway, so Ivan gets out of prison and This is how you know he's a good person. The first thing he did when he got out of prison is he went home to his village and he saw his mom. I fucking knew it. Okay, okay, all right, Yeah that's also really sweet.

I know his his dad has died. His dad died when he was like a ten or something like that, and his mom isn't increasingly retreating into the invisible world like um. And she you know, practiced an ancestor worship and she spends more of her time talking to spirits and hanging out with spirits than the human world, which fucking fair at this point, you know, Oh yeah, that

that makes sense. I can't blame her. Yeah. Another thing that happens is the Stalinists, who are part of that common Front newspaper, the Struggle, they get a letter from their higher ups saying they can't play nice at the Trotskyist anymore. In fact, they're all actually kind of in trouble for having played nice with the Trotskyis for so long,

which is why you shouldn't have higher ups. Yeah. Uh, the Stalinist left the paper, they started their own paper, and then they said that all the Trotskyist are fascists. It's like Twitter but with more guns. Oh my god, which is saying something based on current Twitter. So um. Meanwhile, the French have their Popular Front government at this point that is ostensibly socialist. So they changed the colonial code because the socialists are in charge of France. They changed

still have a colonial code. Oh yeah, literally all they changed the language. Um. It used to say that colonial subjects had to do quote compulsory public service work, but they changed it to quote community work canceled canceled. No, yep, sorry six France, You're all right. This time period of France is about to get canceled hard, but in a different direction when the new Popular Front colonial governor shows up. So when the new popular Front colonial governor shows up,

the cops arrest and torture all the protesters. Thanks Western liberals who pretend to be leftists. Hashtag in our Vietnam? Did they have the stickers back then? Yeah? I think so. Um yeah, hashtags were a big I'm trying to come up with like a way of I got nothing. I can't come up with a weird, old timy way that

hashtags could come up with. I'm sorry, maybe people carving them into I got nothing, Okay, So Von sets himself up editing and at another paper for a living, and he goes on to make pamphlets because at this point he's like basically a newspaper guy, and he goes on making his own zines and pamphlets and stuff, and he basically is discussing how to organize syndicates and how to do bottom up communism because this is like a huge way that they're doing the organizings, telling people how to

how they can do their own ship. Right. So the cops kick in his door and drag them right back to prison. Classic, Yeah, that'll teach you magazines about syndicates. So he gets out and he funks off to Cambodia for a few years. He's like all this because Cambodia

it's just still part of French Indo China. I like spent a while reading about the relationship between Vietnam and Cambodia at this point, and it's basically it's like the Vietnamese folks living in Cambodia were like seen as a privileged class and therefore in some ways resented by the Cambodian folks. But he is just fucking trying to lay Low, as far as I can tell, for a couple of years in the middle of this ship he is being constantly watched, and he still writes for papers in Saigon,

but honestly, he's just trying to work. And the political differences between Communists and Vietnam are getting more and more intense. As the nineteen thirties come to an end, both sides are running candidates for the colonial government. It's no longer a slate between the two. Um. The Stalinists have a collaborationist set of candidates that are support the French. The Trotskyists have a slate of candidates that oppose the French. Okay, choice seems pretty clear here. It was a fairly clear

choice for the public as well. The Stalinists are pushing for support in World War Two. The Trotskyists are like, no, we should not be taxes, be in like, be conscripted to fight in Western Wars. We tried that, it sucked. And so the trotsky Is win um very clearly and strongly. And I doubt it's because people were like I specifically care about this Russian political difference, and more because I know I just don't want to go fight a war I don't give a funk about Yeah, exactly. The French

colonial guy, the governor general. I think he's the popular fronts ostensibly socialist guy. He put it bluntly. While the Stalinist communists have understood that the interests of the animite Vietnamese masses require them to ally with France, the trutsky Iss have not hesitated to incite the natives to revolt so as to take advantage of a possible war in order to gain total liberation. Don't you hate it when people manipulate the political situation for something they want? Oh?

I hate it on that, I know, like freedom for themselves. A fucking tricksy Trutskyists forty Unfortunately, the candidates that they're running in are basically the local elections. They don't have any power in the colonial government as far as I can tell, I haven't read the details, but they clearly are not exerting enough power to stop the fact that forty thousand Vietnamese or script can scripted anyway, two of them as soldiers, of whom six thousand die, and twenty

as laborers. One interesting cool thing about conscripting a bunch of laborers from your colonial government right before you're conquered by the Nazis. Is that those labors have to work for the Nazi war machine essentially pretty quickly mm hmm. Then Russia switches sides again and joins the Hitler's side in the old Molotov Ribbon trap packed and Russian, Russia and Germany invade Poland. War is to get declared. Everything

starts happening faster. Now the Communist Party is allowed to fight the French again because Russia's on Hitler's side and hates the French. Okay, yeah, and it's going to go back and forth so many times. It's just the Vietnamese people are just ping ponged by which side Russia's on so many times. And no Van is deported from Cambodia to Vietnam without any particular new charge. He's just rounded

up as a troublemaker basically. Um. A friend in Vietnam had written him and been like, Hey, what Trotsky book should I read? And he was like, read these two and then like he was, um taking him prison. Damn. He just cannot catch up, right, he absolutely cannot. For the first thirty eight years of his life, He's held in jail for months and then it's taken for trial and then to check off a box on the cool people. Bengo.

He defends himself in court, but not because he's cheeky like all of the other people who defended the seals in court, because they don't give him a lawyer. Ah right, okay um. The only evidence against him is that in all of his letters that they've been reading all of his letters he at one point mentioned to Trotsky books

by name. He gets eight months in prison for this, wow, and he's and then in with the political So all the political prisoners are sort of kept in one area, which is I know, I mean, I'm here for it, but that's a that's a rookie mistake, is amateurish. There's a new crew in the political prisoner camp, the Communists who have never actually been the only people on the scene, but now they're like extra not the only people on

the scene. You have the cow Dietists and cow die is Um is a syncretic religion that was developed in the ninet twenties that has millions of followers today and it's a I can't do it justice. It's a monotheistic religion that seems to pull from everything that was present in um in Vietnam at that period, and they kept getting thrown in prison because they burned their tax cards and refused to cooperate with the French government, which is

a cool first move for a new religion. And no Van writes an article about why communists should be in solidarity with them, and then goes through a fair amount of work to get that article smuggled out of prison and with a guard bribed with opium. Nice, okay, I know, I like this guy. Yeah, he serves his time, he's let out, he's re arrested that day, Oh my god.

Like literally he walks out and there's this woman with his bicycle who's like, hey, you should follow me, and he's like what, He follows her and they arrest him. Wait what that's in traumant? Well not that that whatever, there's no charges, just arrest him. Oh okay, okay, that's where we're at in this particular. Uh, they stopped trying.

They're like, you know, they're like, oh, we only got eight months when we arrest him for writing letters, So they send him they call it house arrest, but it's exile. He gets sent to a distant rural town called Travin, Okay, and he's allowed in the whole town. He has to not he's not allowed to leave, and he has to check in every two weeks with the authorities. Like I literally don't think there was any charge besides people screaming

communists in his face. Okay. He sets about making his money making rice cakes and selling fish in the market. Plus he's now also making and selling traditional medicines that he learned how to make from fellow prisoners. Somewhere along the way, and all of this, he has three kids, which he does not mention until the second to last page of his memoir. Well, you know, they can write

their own memoir, I know. And it's like I've gone back and forth about whether he's just pulling a misogyny and just being like, oh, family doesn't matter, or if his wife is like our partner baby mom or whatever. It's like, lea me a funk out of it. Maybe I don't know. I mean, he loves his mom, I know exactly, And he talks about his brothers and ship all the time and his sisters. So anyway, somewhere along the way, I don't know if it's an hour later, but here's where I chose to throw it in. He

ends up with some kids. Meanwhile, while he's an exile, You'll be shocked to know what the Vietnamese people are doing. They're fighting the French. No, what you haven't mentioned that? Yeah, I know it's coming out of nowhere. So Japan has sort of invaded Vietnam. People are still salty about that. Yeah, and at this point they're sharing it with France. UM, I think this is when the I think there's old

I don't remember. I couldn't figure out whether there's overlap with the VICI, the the Nazi French and the Japanese, like, whether it was only ever them, or whether the Japanese ever shared Vietnam with the estensibly socialist French. I'm not sure. But at this point Vichy government, Nazi of Nazi Frances, now the controllers of Vietnam and the viet and the Japanese show up. Okay, and yeah, people are salty at first, They're like, Okay, the Japanese are going to help us out,

but then the Jabs don't help them out. Instead they just conquer it, right, so people revolt. This time it was primarily organized by the Communist Party. UM. Most of their leaders are in jail, but um, that doesn't really matter at the end of things. Um, and they've got some solid networks. Uh. One article I read referred to them as more as like surfing the wave of revolt, rather than being the direct organizers of it, and that

might be accurate. Also, oh interesting, but to some degree they were directing ship that was going to happen anyway, some degree they were organizing it whatever. Um. A lot of the fighters during this uprising are not communists. They're more religious than political. You have the Cawdietists that I mentioned earlier, and you also the how how who are

a Buddhist sect formed? It is kind of what I was talking about where I was like, every religion is getting into this fight and like really interesting in different ways, you know, Yeah, that's cool. And so the how how are Buddhist sect formed? In nine and them in the cows are some of the main people fighting in the French for decades? Um? The how how hold large swabs

of territory? They end up fighting the National Liberation Front alongside the State Communist until the final victory of State Communists. Of course, as soon as the party came into power, they outlawed cow die is Um and it wasn't relegalized again until but the revolt itself November ninety against the French and the Japanese both The whole western half of coach in China is revolting. The southern region of Vietnam.

Peasants are storming the barracks to steal weapons. They're singling out and killing all the torturers like at whenever they yeah um, and they're starting to set up autonomous regions and they're succeeding for for short periods of time. And because patterns repeat themselves, they get carpet bombed and machine gunned and hundreds of them are guillotined in the streets. Okay, survivors are put into prison barges and have to die.

And the whole uprising failed for a bunch of reasons, one of which is that they planned it around the French being busy invading Thailand. But at the last minute, the French didn't invade Thailand. You know who did invade THI No, um, let's just stick to the soup thing. I really am really excited about the soup free hot soup and turtles. I like turtles turtles can support the podcast, I think, so all right, anything else? Any any sponsors were missing snow, I don't think so. Okay, you're looking

around on your desk trying to find something sponsible. I don't know, sponsored by Bao Fang. The easiest way to commit sec crime, Yeah, only if they find you. Yeah, that's why it's so easy hard to get caught. Anyway. Here's some as So Okay, you're wondering with this, uh, this failed uprising, whether the Communist party like lost their ship and started killing a bunch of their own people,

like a bunch of cartoon villains. The answer is yes. Yeah. However, here's where it starts becoming really important to note not nearly to the same degree that the French and Japanese

government was running around killing everyone. Um. And I feel like that's where some of the biased stuff of my own bias and I should be really careful about is because when I'm like going forward, the stay Communists are gonna do a lot of pretty awful and indiscriminate murder, and it's not going to hold a candle to the indiscriminate murder of the colonial powers that they're fighting, right. Vaughan for his part. He's an exile near the edge

of this uprising. He doesn't hear about it until it's over. He just gets to see the carts full of dead peasants rolled past town. That's devastating, I know. And he's also getting sick after nine months in exile East its spinning up blood. My god, does he have tuberculosis? Are you reading the script? Yeah, he has tuberculosis. He gets leave to go to Saigon for medical care out of the blue. He didn't expect this to happen. His mom shows up to escort him back to Saigon. You know,

I started crying when I was writing it. You know this mom, the peasant who prefers the company of the dead to the living. Her son is sick and just out of prison sort of, So she comes by herself across the country to bring him back to Saigon on a boat. He spends a month in the hospital. Yeah, because he's got tuberculosis. I was good. I had this whole drum roll thing he caught on early. He recovers partly, he recovers partly he doesn't die of it, and he

has to get a job. He's allowed to no longer be an exile somehow, or maybe he just doesn't go back. I'm not quite sure. He gets a job processing Buffalo High it's to send to the Japanese, which is terrible for his lungs and means he's like literally helping out his fucking occupiers. And basically it's like it's this or dive starvation. So that's got a fucking sucked. And then his memoirs fast forward through the entire fucking World War two. What I know, I like literally got confused and like

had to keep scrolling back and forth, scrolling. It was a physical book. But ship is happening, Yeah, especially up north how Chi men the leader of the vietnmam. Um, they're fighting guerrilla style against the Japanese and VICI France, with the help of the US, of course, because the US has armed every single person we fought against. I'm actually curious this was anyone that we that the US fought against in the twenty century that they didn't arm first but themselves. Mm hmm. So near the end of

the war, Vietnamese folks are starving. Um, we're talking about earlier likely a million people. I've seen up to two million people ar in Vietnam during World War Two due to a combination of famine and how the Japanese just stole food for themselves. Um, you were talking about how this is something that your family talks about. Mm hmm. Yeah.

My grandma like, well, my great grandma and great grandpa were alive until I was like twenty something, like early mid twenties, and so it was just like in their scene all days, they would mention stuff. And my grandma still mentions every now and then that like the siblings that she that I've met, Um, they're like twenty plus years apart. Yeah, and so there was like a bunch of siblings in between that just died. Yeah, mm hmm.

I just can't even really wrap my head around being in this country and having to work for and having all your food stolen by your occupier and like, I don't know. Then two days after Germany surrenders fucking overnight March nine to nine to ten, the night between the ninth and the tenth of March, Japan ended French indo China. There's debt. They're just fucking fucking arrested all the French. Oh okay um, they created the independence that quasi independent

State of Vietnam uh and then immediately occupied it. The Nationalist Party, along with the how How and the cow Diists, they called for big demonstration of gratitude to the Japanese for their liberation, and the Japanese were like, hell, no, you can't demonstrate um, even though these people would like literally, actually, the how How and the cow Dists have helped Japan do the actual rounding up of all the French and ship like that, you know, and then Japanese started looting

the place and murdering people and kidnapping women for sex slavery. H None of this lasts very long because on August five, Japan surrendered and then they should cause fucking messy or somehow. Still France is like, but we want our colony back. How Cheamn's like, no, you can't have your fucking colony back. Fuck you. And that's how you get the first into China war with the Vietmain versus the French. It's actually

a diverse group of nationalists and leftist versus the French. UM. At first, before they'd even taken real power, they start rounding up and killing and torturing all the opposition groups. I want to quote von about my favorite action during all of this, which is not not the this not meaning the Stalinist murdering people, but about all the peasant revolt, all this stuff that's happening. Thank you for clarifying. Yeah, yeah,

knowing my favorite time that the Stalinist murdered people. Okay, So a burst of wild hope filled us when we learned that thirty thousand miners in the hong I Comfo coal mines had taken their fate into their own hands in the left to worker councils to manage the coal production themselves. The miners were now in control of the public services in the area, the railways, in the telegraph system. They were applying the principle of equal pay for all

types of work, whether manual or intellectual. That even begun a literacy program, setting up courses in the in which those who were literate taught their fellow workers how to read. In this working class commune, life was organized with no bosses and no cops. I fucking I want to read entire books just about this, and I want us to talk about it as much as we talk about ship that had the label anarchy attached to it, because that's really just like that. I would just want to know,

like read someone's diary from that time. I know, I know, just like what was like the average daylight, because I think this kind of stuff really just gets really glorified, like you were just saying, and what really interests me is just like the everyday aspect of it. Yeah. Within a few months, the Vietmin arrested the leaders of this working class commune forced a rigid hierarchy on the place. Why Yeah. In Saigon, the Vietmin held a big rally

declaring the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. One of their old friends from that newspaper the Struggle asked that this rally, well, who elected you? Yeah, good question. He was found shot dead a few days later in the streets. The people's army they had in the south consisted of river pirates and the people who had served as the riot cops

under the French and then the Japanese. So basically the people who are like, as long as we get to crackheads, don't care or cracking heads for And this was actually probably um just going around going we're we're yeah yeah.

And this is even before this particular meeting in Saigon, is before the French came back and tried to rule it again, and the vietmain said, no one is allowed to carry guns when the French come back, except cops, which is actually a weird mirror of that time that the dynasty, the new dynasty refused to arm the populace and then they lost. Yeah, the trutsky Is and the people themselves were like, hey, we should carry guns when

the French come Yeah. Absolutely, And fortunately no one listened to the Vietnam about this particular thing, and specifically they said we should organize ourselves into people's militias, and so people started doing that, and then people started setting up people's counsels based on neighborhood self organizing um, and then but but doing organizing all across Sigon, and no Van is running around buying weapons on the black market and stashing them uh in various places of the different people's

militias can get access to them. This guy just like does not stop. No, he is fucking and he's disabled. He is like like he is a very sick, long affected tuberculosis patient as he does us and he still does this and has three kids. Yeah, yeah somewhere and that's all of this at some point. Yeah, I hope he's a good dad. I don't know. I don't know. We'll see the French show up. The Vietmin are like, hey, Bud's welcome back. We're pals right, and give up a big,

warm welcome. I don't quite understand this part. The French, with British soldiers backing them, order them to dissolve and have everyone and everyone's disarmed. No one goes along with it, but in order to appease the French and maybe negotiate as equals. That's my best guess about what's happening in Saigon with Vietmain. I don't think this is like Ho Chi Men's strategy. I think this is what the Vietmain you're doing in Sigon. But I don't know. Um, the

Vietmain blame the people's militias and the people's counsels. They're like, oh, they're the ones who didn't like you. And since the Vietmin run the prisons, because of course they do, everyone else is like listen a people with councils, and Vietmins are like, yeah, we Vietmain are like, we're gonna get the prisons. They start rounding up and arresting the people's counsels. Classic, classic, classic, and this was they didn't like the French. This was

them attempting to like negotiate power or something, you know. Uh. Soon enough they call for a general strike, which leads to martial law, and the city hall is stormed by the British and the French, and so are the prisons, and now all the political prisoners, all the people counseled prisoners who are arrested by the stalinists are now in the French hands. And the whole I mean, the whole country is in revolt. The city puts up this desperate resistance.

They barricade the streets that met my machine gun fire. The French left calls this the dirty War, in part because most of the people in the colonial forces were colonial subjects themselves, Like the British are there with their Indian soldiers and the French are there with their Algerian soldiers. So it's basically like making people of colorified people of color mm hmm. The colonial forces hold the city center, Vietmain and their coalition UM and the people's militias UM.

Because the Vietmam's coalition includes I think a lot of the other religious groups. I'm not. It's just so fucking messy. They hold the outskirts of the city. Meanwhile, they go around and kill all the trots Kists they can find. No Van has to flee. Him and his friend. They're smuggled out of the city in a riverboat. So he goes home to his village, arms his brothers, says goodbye to his mother, and goes and joins the people's militia. You know, I just love that he loves his mom.

I know, like he could. He's like, I'm gonna go like kill some motherfucker's but also I love you mom. Yeah. Yeah, And I'm gonna give everyone in the family a handguns too, because we're gonna need that. I mean that, honestly. I can't say that I haven't had that day dream whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So in the city, other people people's militias, all the non Vietmin fighters, they stay and fight. Hundreds of them die,

including the workers that the newspaper the struggle. Uh. They form a like hundreds strong block that I think is like gunned down by the French, not the vietmain I believe.

On a on a bridge out in the countryside, Vaughan and a few other folks from his people's militias are arrested by the Vietmin and the Vietmain at this point are using local bandits and local ex colonial cops, and they're rounding up any prisoners they can to look good to their bosses, including every Catholic they can find, deciding that all Catholics are working with the enemy and executing them, plus just torturing people into false confessions of working with

the French and then executing them. And no Van spends several days in the Vietmin jail in the countryside, listening to people being tortured and executed. One of his fellow prisoners is a surveyor who had been arrested for helping divvy up land that the peasants had stolen back from a rich landowner um because the Stalinists had decided to make common cause with the rich against the poor. That seems fucked up, Yeah, it's not so good, no, But then he's rescued. The rest of his unit finds him

and they have negotiations with the Vietmin. The negotiations are basically, there's more of us, we have more guns. Let them the fuck go, Yeah, that's compelling. I think it is. It's a strong negotiating position. And so he gets out and he rejoins the People's militia, and when he gets out, he finds out that three of his friends had tried to get into Saigon to help. They had been arrested by the French, released and then we're executed by the

vietmin oh. And at this point Van he can't keep up with the militia, is tuberculosis has ruined his lungs, but he's like gott to be of use, so he heads off to Saigon, where he literally just heard about three of his friends fucking going through hell and then dying. So he hides from both sides of the war. Even though he's a he himself is on one side of

the war. Along the way, he sees how the French during the recolonizing they are brutal, and they are they are in order of magnitude, are more more brutal than the VIETNMAM. And that is the thing I do need to feel like like at one point and try not to go with too many of the specific descriptions of bad ship, but at one point at least they're like booby trapping dead children, so that when people go to go find their dead child, they're blown up by a

hand garnade. Who's doing there? Okay, that's what I thought. And one of the reasons I include that is because like part of the Western demonization of um of the Viet Cong is like booby traps and ship um, and so like we learned it from you. Dad is like a pretty freaking valid. Anyway, his own village was attacked by the French. His brother had been shot in the knee but survived. French colonists who sided with the Vietnames

were rounded up and beaten. One woman was stripped to the waist and marched to the streets with a sign around her neck that says I signed a Marxist resolution. And it's worth noting that I think overall, the French aren't murdering the French citizens who are siding with the Viet the Vietmin, but they are absolutely beating the ship out of them and arresting them and subjecting them the

weird torture. He's also hearing about more and more people killed by the Vietmin, about doctors and comrades, about a teacher killed by his own former student, and people hide him. He spends several days lying flat in a fishing boat, talking with the fisher. When the fisher takes it out to go fishing, um, he spends longer in a series of safe houses. Once he gets the Saigon, his own brother,

brother number ten, was murdered by the Vietmin. Yeah, and so he just keeps hearing terrible news all across the country. Peasants had redivided the land under the slogan the land to those who work it, which is a pretty reasonable slogan and probably better than the used the French to prug or s our society or whatever, only to have Ho Chi Minh make declarations that it was illegal to, you know, make communism. The various religious sects that had

fought for the revolution, we're getting persecuted too. And by persecuted, I mean murdered at least a ton of their leaders, plus all the non aligned nationalists. The how how after the after Vietmin tried to assassinate their leader, and I forgot to mention that his name was the Mad Monk. They held their territory and they killed the Vietnamin who tried to enter their territory because the Vietmain were trying to kill them all the while they stayed fighting against

the French. But then, in a master stroke of giving a huge chunk of people over the enemy, the Vietmain successfully assassinated the mad Monk. On the next tr and the how how it started fighting for the French instead on what? Okay, all right, I will say that of all these people, the communist opposition group is the one that, even when the Vietmain were killing them, did not go and then join the French. Because the cow diists did

the same thing. They were part of the resistance until the Vietmin arrested their leader, and then they moved to support the French. The pirates. They've been working for rebellion for the rebellion Um, but demanded autonomy from the Vietmin. So they were followed into the swamps and murdered, and the few survivors went and joined the French. The nationalists were executed by the Vietmin. And I am certain that the Vietmin used the fact that these people switch sides

after being murdered to retroactively justify the murder. Well yeah, that's usually okay, Yeah, that said, despite all the enemies of the Vietmin made the French never retook Vietnam. Yeah, racked with tuberculosis, constantly under threat from both the French and the Vietmin. Like he's like opened a bookstore and Saigon that's getting like rated every fucking just like constantly,

And Ship Vaughan decides to funk off for good. He doesn't have a passport, but he pulled strings for three months travel visa to get to France, and he goes into exile in Marseilles, which makes him the second person in two thousand twenty three on this podcast to go into exile and Marseilles because as Babar Heart did the same thing after the colonial forces in Algeria tried to kill her. He left his kids in someone's care without telling us the reader, who hopefully a good person, I

don't know. So he goes to France by every one of his friends from his opposition from the opposition party who stayed in the country were dead. Oh my god, that's so sad, I know. He describes a torture that several women friends of his were subjected to in a new creative way that I'm also not going to relate and he moved to Paris and he took badly paid work as an electrician. Um he stayed involved and left his politics his whole life. He tended to avoid ideological

labels going forward. He was no longer a Trotskyist. He mostly rolled with the anti authoritarian communists, especially what are called council communists, which are communists who even bottom up communism built out of workers councils. He wrote a ton of history books. He also wrote his memoirs, and he wrote books about the connections between Taoism, anarchism, and other liberatory ideas through time and place. And that's more or less where we're gonna leave it the cliffhanger, but here's

a short version for anyone needs to know. I'm kind of cutting it before the second end of China War because that's just so much more covered and understood. The Vietmin fought the French to a draw in nineteen fifty four and in what's called the first end of China War, and it left the country divided. There were supposed to

be a country wide election to unify the country. Um the Vietmin and the Soviet Union wanted the election to be overseen locally the US, who I have no idea why they should have had any any say in any of this, said that it should be supervised by the U N. Instead, this was rejected. There was no election. The empire in exile. Who's the French puppet? Mhm. He appoints a prime minister instead of having an election. So

the communists in the south rose up. This triggers the Second Indo China War, what the US calls the Vietnam War and the Vietnamese I believe called the American War. And that war peasants kicked the ship out of the US and along and bloody war, and they win in the country's unified and global capitalism wins brutal decline. McDonald's does what the French in the US failed to do When Vietnamese state capitalism turned into private capitalism, no Van

wasn't surprised. The two were. He felt blood brothers. Near the end of his life, he went home and visited his village for a while. His extended family was like, hey, you should stay here and die among family, and he said, no, I'm I'm a wanderer. And he lived until two thousand five, into his early nineties and he was undefeated, despite the best efforts made by all of the major antagonists who have ever been on this show, capitalist colonialists, authoritarian communists,

and tuberculosis. Writing about that experience with his Emily and deciding not to return back to his village, he wrote, it's life. The instant of life that is eternity. I feel immortal, I feel eternal. You may die tomorrow or right now, but when you really immerse yourself in some project, you're living beyond the hundred revolutions of the earth around the sun. Actually, time has nothing to do with it.

When your eternal, your eternal. Wow, that's really beautiful. I know, I really liked it, and I feel like it's like it comes it's like so good and useful and also comes from such an obvious like you can you can see how that comes from his experience of discussing eternity

with his family. You know. Um yeah, so reflections, uh some nations, slight cliffhanger there, I know, it's I'm ready for part three, four or five, eleven twelve, Like I'm it's interesting because like I can't remember if I mentioned this in the last episode, but just like the U the wow, oh my God, I'm tired. Um. The history that we see in the diaspora is never like this comprehensive,

and it's usually skewed towards capitalist, colonial perspective. Like my like I spent years going to a Vietnamese school on Sundays, and conveniently this kind of stuff is not taught, you know, And so like I see so much of myself in Govan and like, I don't know, I I'm gonna be chewing on this for a while, but like I've always felt like I don't know, I have I don't know a lot of other like specifically like Vietnamese leftist specifically not like anti authitarian, and so like hearing this and

like it feels really heartfelt. It feels like maybe I'm not so far from home in my spirit. Yeah, it makes sense that like you have this, you know, we end up with like histories one but written by the

victors or whatever. And like, from a Western point of view, you have the capitalists, and from a you know, stay socialists of Vietnam point of view, you have the communist party, right and like, and it seems so funny to me because it seems so obvious that it's like, well, actually just people working together and fighting to like be free and equal is like clearly the cooler thing and like and neither side could neither side comes off looking so

great in this version of this story. You know. So it makes sense that they don't want to talk about it, but I don't know. Yeah, and it you know, and I really worried, Um, we talked a little bit about this um off off mic earlier. I really worried about, like, it's still worth absolutely celebrating the fact that Vietnamese people like defeated every fucking major power, yeah, you know, um, and like and in the end, that was done in the name of state communism, right, and that's like messy

as hell, but like still worth. There's still something amazing there, you know. But then, yeah, so that's that's what I worry about by telling specifically this story about someone who, for very good reasons, absolutely hated the Vietnam you know, mm hmm. I mean it's you know, war is ugly. I think I said this already. You know, war is ugly.

Nobody ever wins, blah blah blah. And I think it maybe could be a lesson for folks who have like a really idealistic idea of like what collapse will look like, and that like they're them and their affinity group will be the ones in charge, and you know it's always it's never never going to be that simple. Yeah, yeah,

just sad. I feel like most episodes of this unfortunately follow this like you know, and then these really like like for me, the most high point is these thirty thou miners living in a like communist society, right, you know, and so so that's like part of why they're de feet is like extra sad is because like because we're like it could have been so beautiful and I'm sure it would have been absolutely messy and complicated too, right, you know. But like, um yeah, well, uh, anything you

want to shout out or plug uh yeah. If you like my cheesy jokes, you can hear more of those, um somewhere on the internet. But more specifically, um, I am part of Yellow Peril Tactical. You can find us on Instagram at Yellow Underscore Peril Underscore Technical, and we are also on Twitter y p t Actual and we also do a podcast, Tiger Block Podcasts, where those are actually more even more specifically where my bad jokes are. But you can hear us do weird interviews and us

talking to each other? Um, and yeah, that's where to find my my ship posts as well on the internet. Hell yeah, I want to shout out that people should consider reading UM. I read a lot of history books for my job. This is my job. You're listening to me do my job. I read a lot of history books from my job. And In the Crossfire by no von n g O space v a n was one of the most readable and interesting UM books I've read for this and so I really recommend people people read it.

And also just as informative and meaningful is Escape from Insul Island, which is about an island of insults that the protagonists wants to not be on, therefore they must escape, which you can order directly from wherever you order books, or from Tangled Wilderness dot org or from a k Press. So if you have anything you want to plug, I want to plug the UH. Some resources for the earthquakes

that the earthquakes happened in Syria and in Turkey. UM. Check out the White Helmets that's white Helmets dot org. Check out this Syrian American Medical Society Foundation that's s a MS DASH USA dot net doctor Doctors Without Borders Doctors without Borders dot org. And then uh, the Kurdish Red Crescent and that's their website is h E y v A s O r uk dot org. Yeah, and uh, you didn't listen to the episode that Shrine Lenny Units did for it could happen here on What's what happened there?

Please check it out. Yeah that's what I got. All right, Well, we'll see you all next week with more tales of people. Who is the first surviving of tuberculosis tale? Actually, I mean I think there's are you sure? In our podcast it subreculous is about death rate? Um yeah, that's not good. Yeah, but still means there'll be a lot of people who survive it. Um but yeah, in terms of this, in terms of this show, it is it usually goes in and kills everyone. The state doesn't It's usually like and

uh they died of TV. Yeah, all right, by everyone Next week By Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts,