Cool Zone Media, Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff, your weekly reminder that people can do good things and response to bad things, and also sometimes that people can become better people than.
They started off. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and my guest today is Cavea, who's host of House of Pod and a doctor. And you know, oh hi, yeah.
No, I'm a better person now for having been through episode one of these two parter learning things about how to improve as a person.
Yeah, exactly. And you know he needs doctors a lot, George orwell, oh, I thought you're gonna say me, Well, I'm going to get to that too. Also is a is our producer Sophie, who I would not have said that about on air, but Sophie said about on air, how do you like our sickly hero pop this week?
I don't know.
I think that. Uh, I don't know. I can't get past some of the things, so I just don't like him.
That's fair, that's working fair. I did not like him for a very long time after I learned.
Thought yeah, yeah, but you know, empathy to people who also need to live in a bubble.
Yeah, also in our bubble of social helping create this podcast is our audio engineer, Daniel and Hi Daniel H.
Danel, Danel. I liked it and.
Our theme musical was written forced by unwoman and yeah, no it's Sophie. I like, I feel you about it. I I don't know. It took me a really long time to be like, I'm going to give this man a time a day. Our hero, George Orwell, are complicated here. George Orwell, he's in Spain and he joins a Marxist militia, the Poum Poum. They're a smallish unit and they're like famous in history because George Orwell wrote one of the
main books about the Spanish Civil War. They're not historically important particularly, but they became important because warwells in it. And they're Marxists. But the whole thing is that they're not attached to Stalin. Stalin actually tries to kill them all soon enough, and he wanted to join the anarchists because they weren't but they weren't going where he wanted to go. He wrote quote, as far as my purely personal preferences went, I would have liked to join the anarchists.
And George ends up an officer soon enough, he was a few years older, and he had basically had paramilitary training from being a colonial cop. There was military rank in terms of structure in these militaries, but not in terms of social treatment. He said that quote. There was no titles, no badges, no heel clicking, and no saluting, and everyone from general to private drew the same pay ate, the same food, wore the same clothes, and mingled on terms of complete equality.
Why he wanted to be with the anarchists because he just didn't like the pageantry of the military and being like a cop and all that stuff.
Well, so he had like kind of come from like he had this period already where he had been an anarchist for a little bit. But actually it's this Marxist militia is also like that. The Marxist militia that he's part of is also complete social equality, even though there's a command structure embedded within it, also within the anarchists, or very similar structurally. But yeah, no, I think he just he like kind of likes the anarchists. He's still
not one. He's a democratic socialist. He actually comes there as part of the Labor Party, the Independent Labor Party, distinct from the Labor Party. They move in and out in British politics are very confusing to me, and so these militias fight despite there being no force, making them nothing but class loyalty. Orwell wrote quote in May. For a short while, I was acting lieutenant in command of
about thirty men, English and Spanish. We had all been under fire for months, and I never had the slightest difficulty in getting an order obeyed or in getting men to volunteer for a dangerous job. Discipline was built by spreading revolutionary ideas, not as jargon and most as sloganeering, but by quote, I'm a sneeze. Please cut this whole one, or I'm going to acknowledge them with sneeze, and it's not gonna happen. And you should include it because it's first. Yeah,
just include it. I hope people find it amusing that I sometimes have to sneeze.
Look up at the sun. You can trigger an ocular reflex if there's one available to you. There's a lamp.
Although it is midsummer as we're recording this, I'm sure there's a sun outside somewhere. So they spread this discipline by spreading revolutionary ideas by quote, endless arguments and explanations as to why such and such a thing was necessary, rather than being like, well, come on, man, dialectical marks as materialism says that you should go to run into that machine gun you know. Oh wait, maybe with sneeze again. Who knows gonna happen at any time.
I don't know.
I'm not convinced. Almost certainly, oh, he also wrote quote almost certainly. The main reason why the Spanish Republic could keep up the fight for two and a half years against impossible odds was that there was no gross contrasts of wealth. The people suffered horribly, but they all suffered alike. When the private soldier had not a cigarette, the general
had not won either. The militias held the line while a regular army assembled and trained behind them, but eventually the communist forces, and by this I mean the Stalinist forces,
swallowed it all. After about a year, the militias disbanded or were absorbed into the communist controlled popular army, with all the usual bullshit like officers getting paid a ton more than the regular soldiers, or well described it, The undoubted purpose of this change was to strike a blow at equalitarianism in every Department, the same policy had been followed, with the result that only a year after the outbreak of the war, you get what was in effect an
ordinary bourgeois state with in addition a reign of terror to preserve the status quo. And like when he says preserve the status quo, he means that, like when the revolution first broke out, everyone's like running around and collectivizing farms and stealing land back from the landlords and shit like that. Right, the Communists were like, no, no, you can't do that yet. You're not allowed to collectivize property anymore, and we will fucking kill you if you try.
So I'm look confused, though, Yeah, you're confused, so he said a little bit. Yeah, okay again, I'm I'm not socially just asking.
But I feel like that would have been a Communist thing to do though, or were they There's like, no, we're the ones to do that, not you people doing it willy nilly.
So there's this thing that at this time the Communist Party was kind of the right wing of the left because they believed one they were like totalitarian right and they believed in Stalin and all this stuff, right, But they specifically were like, we can't have the revolution yet because we don't want to piss off the rich, because we want to consolidate power. They were specifically around politicking
and playing power rather than having a communist revolution. So they're hypocrites and they are like counter revolutionary, is how I Everyone who listens to this podcast knows, I have a very low opinion of the USSR. But yeah, so they are running around preventing the revolution in the name
of the greater revolution. Basically. Part of it also is that Russia doesn't care about Spain except as a chess piece on a global board, right, and so Russia is afraid that if Spain goes communists too soon, the UK and France are not going to have it, and they're going to like try to stop Russia.
Got you, right, gotcha.
They're playing forty chess with yeah, people's lives instead of having ideological consistency and trying to, you know, create a communist society. Everyone else's trying to create a communist society except the communists, is what's happening. The Labor Party is down there trying to fucking cause a communist society because the left wing of the or the Independent Labor Party is to the left of the Communists.
Is the Labor Party back then it all similar to the one that exists now.
No, So okay, so I'm gonna get this a little bit messy. So there's the Independent Labor Party and then there's the Labor Party, and then they kind of intertwine back and forth every now and then. And I think by like the mid nineteen forties, the Independent Labor Party becomes the left wing of the Labor Party, which comes
into power. And it's around then I think that the Labor Party starts getting a little bit more boring centrist, even kind of sometimes center right, and that's like Or will die shortly there after, and like, so we actually don't know what he would have kind of done politically, whether he would have like kept fighting for the left wing of the Labor Party or whether he would have peaced out on it. But he's down there with the Independent Labor Party.
At this time.
So it's it is distinct at this time, and there's no official English intervention, like the government is of Britain is not intervening, but individuals are like, we gotta go stup fascism. Yeah, I'm also going to just out of nowhere. Read my favorite quote from this book because I like it. Quote. I have no particular love for the idealized worker as
he appears in the bourgeois communist mind. But when I see an actual flesh and blood worker in conflict with his natural enemy, the policeman, I do not have to ask myself which side I am on.
Wow that's pretty. That's a. That's a. It's a major character arc from where he started.
I know he was a cop.
Yeah, wow, Yeah, that's pretty.
It's pretty interesting. I mean, we're going to get to it, but I'm I'm like bummed to hear that he died at forty six, Like I really wonder what would have happened if, like, you know, he kept going.
No and everyone conjectures and they would have been like, he would have been on my team. And I do that a little bit too, But like everyone's wrong, you know. Right soon after he gets down there, Eileen comes to and we don't have as much of her words. He didn't write much about her the famous war. His book on the war, Homage to Catalonia, doesn't mention her by name anywhere in it, and doesn't talk about what she's doing. Really Some have read this as evidence of him ignoring
her and taking it for granted. Again, my read of the situation, which could be wrong, is that it was private and that neither of them wanted her dragged into it. Yeah, but she went down there, and she was coordinating logistics for all the independent labor union soldiers, and so she's running supply and communications and financial stuff and producing a newspaper and a radio show. And there's like photos of
her on the front lines and stuff. She's not fighting on the front lines, but she's making it happen.
Sounded sad upon the radio. Sorry, I had to get into Dixie being that runner.
Nice, well done you.
Eventually I find a way.
I only know, come on, Eileen, that the chorus you know, Oh.
God, I don't know. I love that song so much. It is the greatest one hit wonder, even better than PoCA Bell's canon. It's that good a one hit wonder. That's how much I love that song.
It does something really well, which is like be a like upbeat sad song. Yeah, exactly, that's right. Yeah, I do like that about it. So, while George is fighting at the front, a fascist soldier shoots him through the throat. There's so many people who hate Orwell who write about Orwell, And there's like this one writer who writes about everything bad that happens to orwell's his own fault, and like how he died of sickness as his own fault because
he kept being like dumb, you know. And so this author whose name I genuinely forget, was like, oh, he was really tall and he stood up and so they he got shot and he should have known better because he was tall and not to stand.
Should never have stood up in that war.
Yeah, and he's like the same versus like he he was slumming and that's how he got sick and destroyed his health. So fuck him. And I'm just like damn. And it's not even one of the people who was writing about the bad thing he did.
Yeah, that's right.
Anyway, he gets shot in the throat, but he survives. If he had been shot a millimeter in another direction, we probably wouldn't have had the book nineteen eighty four.
Yeah, those a little important things going through your neck. Yeah yeah, bad place to get shot. Yeah.
I was gonna ask, as a doctor, is like is that a good spot? Like I know, he just turned out the best.
Yeah, turned to kit it really tight. Yeah, yeah, that's a really bad place. I mean, aside from the blood vessels that are major to bleed out very easily, the is you know, you could get swelling from the wound or the edemon and that could cause a restriction on your air and your breathing, so not to mention your spinal cord. So there's all there's a lot of stuff in there, I mean, unless it just nicks you on the side. Yes, it's not a good place to get shot. Yeah.
No, it's definitely threw the throat, not of graze, and he definitely was apparently like millimeters from an artery and goodness, but he's lucky in some ways.
Yeah.
One thing that wasn't lucky is that while he was at the front, the Communists had started attacking the Marxists and the anarchists, and they started disappearing POM members, the militia that he's part of. They start torturing them, they start, but don't worry. The communist officers who did this disappearing and torturing of their political rivals then got disappeared and tortured by the Communist officers who replaced them, because it's no one is good at killing communists like Stalin.
I mean, like why just to like we didn't like the way you tortured and killed the anarchists. We're going to do it.
Better or like yeah, like now they're politically untrustworthy, like Stalin is like fucking paranoid.
You did what we told you to our colleagues, and that shows us that you're not to be trusted, so we are going to kill you now for it.
Yeah, basically, like like it's like it's almost inscrutable, like Stalin has like the people closest to him are the people who are getting killed, right, and so it's the highest like it is the guy who disappeared a Pooh member and was like the main torture guy. It's I researched at different time, so I remember anyone's names who like was then disappeared and tortured within months, you know,
And I don't know. I think that this is why the Spanish Civil War, and other people argue that we would have lost either way, but I think this is why Franco won. There's certainly a big part of it. It doesn't help when this kind of stuff happens. Yeah, and so when he gets out of the hospit at all, there's a warrnt out for his arrest from the Communists because he's in and for him and Eileen, Eileen saves
the day. She has one eye on the exit the whole time, and while he's recovering, she's like figuring out passport.
Shit.
I think they get out under an assumed name. It's been a while since I read how much Catalonium and gets them out of the country. And they were going to be arrested and tried by the Communists. And we know this because they were arrested and tried in absentia, which is two things. One, what a way to start a married life. They had been married for less than
six months when they go to this war. Yeah, and it is like around their one year anniversary that they are fleeing under assumed names from the Communists who they were supposedly supposed to be helping.
Yeah, romance, I know.
And the other thing is that he hates Stalinists, and with the burning heat of fiery son, the two things he hates are fascists and Stalinists and he sees them equally as bad. And because they killed probably an equal number of his close friends during that war. Yeah, and so yeah, Stalin gets stal George Horwell gets home, gets really anti Stalinists at this point, and the left in the UK fucking hates him when he gets back because
he doesn't like Stalin. Everyone's like, what, you can't be mad at Stalin, the Man of Steele, He's our guy. He couldn't get Homage to Catalonia published for a very long time, and when he did, it's sold like a couple hundred copies. He's like already a known author at this point, right, but no one will buy it because leftists right wing doesn't want it and the leftists don't want it either. This is where Orwell starts getting taken
out of context constantly. His existing books are starting to get taken out of context and being like, oh, or was not a real leftist. He said the following about the working class or whatever. Like there's this thing where like in one of his books he was like the working class smell, and you take that out of context, that sure doesn't.
Sound great, right, yeah, sure.
And he's like talking about being like the sweat of honest labor and hard lives and like bad hygiene caused by poverty, and like, yes, there is actually a distinct smell and you know, and so they're like, ah, or Well just thinks that everyone, all the working class are smelly idiots or whatever. Yeah, but Orwell remains a leftist despite this, He wrote, quote, every line of serious work I have written since nineteen thirty six has been written
directly or indirectly against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism. And what's funny speaking of being taken out of context after he dies and they like are reprinting Animal Farm and shit, they start off with a intro introduction where they take out the for democratic socialism.
No kidding, yeah, oh my, what did they did? They replace it with something or they took up that line completely.
Yeah, there's every line of serious work I've written is against totalitarianism.
What point did he write animal Farm? Was this? Okay, it's soon.
So he moves in with Eileen's family for a while, and then they moved to another place and they got a French poodle they named Marx and a rooster they named Henry Ford. And he kept getting sick a bunch, which is like, you know, his the style at the time for him and a writer friend pays for them to recover in French Morocco, and so he goes to hang out in warmer air or whatever because he's stole a middle class and by middle class and British standards like vaguely boucheoisie guy.
You know.
Yeah, Eventually World War two does its whole thing like start. And prior to the outbreak of the war, George actually came back from Spain and he was a pacifist, which was like the further left position, which doesn't mean that he was against It doesn't mean what it means today, like no violence. It means he didn't believe in England joining a hypothetical European war. As soon as the war starts, he won eighties and he is very pro war. There are Nazis to kill and there's an England to defend.
Eileen is off to working in the censorship department at the Ministry of Information. Yeah, they sounds very nineteen eighty four. His life is very nineteen eighty four. George Orwell is going to soon we'll talk about it. First he tries to sign up for the military. He's like, well, I know, my shit, I've been in a war. I you know and say what you want about George orwell, he was
pathologically fearless. As far as I can tell, the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force all reject him like one after the other.
Your next buddy, you can't come. No, we're not taking you.
You are sickly, you are constantly down with pneumonia. And also I think the fact that he's like a leftist is part of this, right, like he's been. He actually like kind of tries to join like more proper like Ministry of Information type stuff, and I think and they don't let him because he's on there like sk lefty watch list. Yeah but yeah, and he's in his late thirties and shit, and he's like not medically fit for
the war. So he joins the Home Guard, and the Home Guard is mostly made up of like brave but too young or too old or too sick, people like people who can join the regular military over under eighteen over forty one. And they all were training to fight as partisans in case Germany invaded the UK, which absolutely could have happened. It didn't come super close to happening. We now know, right because we can like look at the war documents and shit, but it like absolutely could
have happened. Or well, wants to turn the Home Guard into a socialist militia to have a socialist revolution during World War Two.
It's strong, yes commitment.
He is not alone in this And basically he starts talking about how we need to win the war against Hitler for socialism to have a chance, but we also need to have a socialist revolution in order for winning the war to have a chance. And I mean, he's wrong. They managed to defeat Hitler anyway without a socialist revolution. And did you know what one result of us not having had a social democratic socialist revolution in the nineteen forties is.
I'm gonna guess it's something to do with the commercials.
It does the fact that we were about to pivot to actually, you know, we'd probably be pivoting to like the people's ads or whatever its because the world's a nightmare. But here's ads and rebeca the beginning of the war, he spends two years in the propaganda services for the BBC nineteen forty one to nineteen forty three. He's doing
wartime news in propaganda for British India. Because people tend to forget that Britain was still in imperial power, Like this is the there's like a couple year period where Britain looks good and this is it, Like that's it. The only time that Britain ever looked good was when they were fighting the fucka Dazis.
Yeah, because of all the movies. That's why all the movies are about that time, because yeah, they look pretty cool. Yeah, pretty cool.
People forget that Britain was an imperial power and a fuck ton of Indian soldiers fought and died against the Nazis and are often left out of the Like an Indian friend of mine was like talking about basically being like, oh yeah, whenever the like credit Pie for beating the fucking Nazis gets rolled out, everyone leaves us out, you know.
Yeah.
And he was well aware of the irony of him as an anti colonial writer working for the Eastern Service. He told his superiors, quote, if I broadcast as George orwell, I am as it were selling. My literary reputation, which so far as India is concerned, primarily arises chiefly from books of an anti imperialist tendency, some of which have been banned in India because some of his books are banned in India because they're anti colonial, and here he is.
Doing colonial radio for them.
Yeah, and this is the like, I mean, this is this is part of why a lot of his friends were anti war is that were like, we hate the British government, we can't support them, right, And he's like, this is a big compromise for him. He gets really jaded about this job. He's not much of a speaker, he never had been at being sick and getting shot in the throat probably didn't help that. He wrote amazing scripts and he got like sort of interesting and sly
things past the censors here and there. I forgot to include some examples. But who like invite anti colonial thinkers on to talk about something totally unrelated and just kind of vaguely get at anti colonial ideas.
Yeah, well this is really I mean, this is a really interesting parallel to what's happening now with a lot of people trying to decide in this current election state that we're in. You know, people who are very against what the current administration might be supporting or doing at the border and in Gaza, but still having to find a way to like support the state of our current government. You know, it's a very interesting it's a very interesting topic.
No, totally, and it's a it is a very similar like I feel, there's not a lot of things I could say. A lot of people say that George row will do this, George ro will do that, George Rowyll would probab Voe Forbiden, like and he feel dirty about it, and he talks shit about it, you know. Like that seems to be because he believed in democracy versus fascism, you know, and like he was willing to be in some ways more like compromised in order to defend what
he believed was common decency. He's interesting and he like, well, we'll talk about some of it.
More in a minute.
And uh, there's no recordings of anything he did during this period. Apparently there's no recordings of his voice at all, which I like, wow, struggle to believe. I like read that somewhere, but I didn't then do my independent research.
That is wild. And we even have like recording of like Abraham Lincoln somewhere, like on some cylinder somewhere, Yes, some I actually heard. I never heard it. I heard that we do somewhere, And that's where they figured out that his voice is a little bit more like tinny nothing deep booming voice that you think he's supposed to have, but more like Kenny sounding. I don't know if they's like or not. Hey, Abraham Lincoln.
Yeah, that's another example where I'm like, like, the Civil War in the US is another one of these examples where I'm like, yay, the Union an evil empire, you know. But I'm like, but the right side of that war.
Yeah, right, like, undeniably the right side, even though they're terrible.
Yeah, orwell tried to basically just be as good as he could while he was there. He said, about this time, I doubt whether I shall stay in this job much longer. But while here, I consider I have kept our propaganda slightly less disgusting than it might otherwise have been. He's got insight, yeah, And he like because he read he was listening to and reading all of the propaganda of like Germany and all the other countries, you know, and he was just like, how do I be less gross?
How do I tell fewer lies?
You know? Yeah?
While doing war propaganda? And he didn't nail it, but he tried. It's around this time that the last trace of anti Semitism has gone. World War two obviously a high water mark for some anti Semitism. It shook a fair amount of anti Semites who were basically decent people into dropping that.
You know, they saw the extreme there, they saw where that road goes.
Yeah. He quit the BBC in nineteen forty three before the war's over. He's like, I can't do this anymore, to focus on writing what became his breakthrough book, Animal Farm. His wife Eileen probably helped him a lot with this. This is contested because people like to argue about everything, and it seems very likely that she was like, not quite a co writer, but like, I think they were close.
I think that they were like, actually they cheated on each other constantly, right, And I don't know whether or not this was like them being dicks to each other or whether they were doing what was actually the style at the time, which was just to be in an open marriage, you know. And because they didn't write about their personal lives, so I don't know.
Yeah, something like sounds like a thing that like European authors would do.
Yeah, totally. And they're both sickly. He's constantly down with bronchitis and shit, and she is suffering from uterine bleeding and has been for years. They're trying to have a kid but can't manage. It's probable that George is sterile. He also becomes the literary editor of the Tribune because actually, by the way, it's all stored in the neck, you know, and he had lost all that, right, isn't that the case.
Yeah, I'll have to look at the pub med literature on that, but yeah, I think that's right.
Okay. He becomes the literary editor of the Tribune, which is a journal for the left wing of the Labor Party, what gets called the farthest left among the factions supporting the war. Further left of that is the anti war left. His friend George Woodcock wrote about this time. Even more than his predecessors, he opened the review pages to writers of almost every shade of political opinion. Only the Communists
were uninvited. In those days. Quite apart from Orwell's particular antagonism towards it, the Communist Party, which was constantly clamoring for the suppression of rival minorities, was regarded as pretty far to the right in the ever shifting political spectrum. Basically since around nineteen seventeen, Anyone saying communist in the
West meant bolshevik. Prior to that the word had broader meaning, But to say communist in this era meant pretty specifically like we take orders from Russia, not a we should have the worker's control for the means of production. The words for that were socialists, which usually implied democratic socialism,
like Orwell, anarchist or Trotskyist. So and that helped me that like broke through a lot of like reading about this era was to be like, oh, overall, if someone says communist and they know what they're talking about, they're not just throwing it around as a slur, like they mean the communist party that is taking orders from Russia. And if they say trotskyist or anarchist or democratic socialist or socialist, they mean something different.
M hm.
So he finish his animal farm and five presses turn it down. One of them turned it down because, as Orwell suspected, everyone thought, Orwell is crazy for thinkiness Orwell has lost his mind. He's he's so anti communist, he's seeing communists everywhere. He's Spain broken. I mean, I think Spain broke him a little bit. But like, how could it not. Yeah, he suspected that a Soviet spy embedded in the Ministry of Information got a publisher to change its mind. It turns out he was right, no kidding.
Soviet spy embedded in the Ministry of Information went to that publisher and was like, Yo, don't publish this.
Wow.
And so everyone's turning it down because it's anti Soviet and it's World War two and people are like, those are our allies right now? Yeah, yeah, we can't publish that, which I even I even kind of get yeah, you know, yeah, I even kind of be like, let's wait a couple of years on that. I don't know, I would probably still publish it, but I can and see where they're coming from. But then one press turned it down that I'm like sad about the anarchist press turned it down.
That's a real disappointment, I know.
And some of his anarchist friends, George wood Cockway keep quoting a lot because he's one of the first people who write a book about Gorge Orwell after he died. He as an anarchist historian and was friends close friends with Orwell, and he was like, hey, we should publish this. But he wasn't able to push it through like reach consensus or whatever. I don't know if that were consensus based because the anarchists they were anarchists and anti war, and Orwell socialist and pro war, but.
It just such, you know, it makes me think that like if it had gone through and an anarchist press had done it, I think in the long run, just what it would have done for assuming it still would have hit the same way, which I imagine it would, like, just imagine what that would have done for anarchist literature.
I know in general it would have made it mainstream. I know, I'm so mad about this in retrospect. And eventually Animal Farm found a publisher. It found an anti Stalinist left his publisher called Secord and Warburg. And Warburg of Secord and Warburg had been in Orwell's unit of the Home Guard. I think Orwell had recruited him and so it was part of that. Like, hey, yes, like pro war socialists are going to try and like have
a socialist revolution with the Home Guard. That was a total non starter, but it was like the fun idea, you know, Yeah, made some good friends, made some friends along the way. That's exactlytant. Yeah. Meanwhile, in May nineteen forty four, the couple adopted a baby.
His name is Richard. Not long after, the Nazis blew up their house, but they survived. They weren't home during the Blootz. Their house gets blown up, and Orwell had to like dig through the rubble for his books and kurt them away in a wheelbarrow. And as the war wound down in early nineteen forty five, Orwell, as a war journalist, headed off to Germany. But then tragedy strikes. Eileen is home with Richard, who is ten months old, and she wants to get a hysterectomy because of her
uterine bleeding problem. But she's a kneemic And actually, you might be able to make better sense of this story than me. She's anemic, and the doctors aren't sure that they want to do it. They actually specifically recommend against it, not without her spending a month in the hospital getting blood transfusions, I think beforehand, but maybe afterwards she can't afford that. She goes in for the surgery anyway, against
her doctor's recommendations, and she dies. It seems implied that this was a response to the anesthesia, and the courts determined there was no malpractice or anything. It was just really shit luck. And also anesthesia in nineteen forty five is not as good.
Yeah, I mean just just surgical rates were worse, obviously, and I wonder if there was some pretty heavy bleeding during the surgery and there just wasn't enough blood product on top of that, and along with the lack of blood product and maybe having a bad reaction to some sedative or something they gave, probably combined to Yeah, there's so many things that could go wrong with surgery at
that point. Yeah, I mean, there's things didn't go wrong with surgery now, right, I mean, we're much better than we were in the forties.
Yeah, it was like the actually it's funny on the on the you were you were the guest on the episode about the ambulance or of paramedics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it was like, and those people were also the folks who developed not the paramedics, but some of the people who developed the paramedic practice were some of the people who developed better anesthesia and stuff too.
You know, yeah, you know that that episode you had me on for the first paramedics in you in the world after that episode, you inspired me to to reach out to one of the main paramedics at the time, Chief John Moon, who was still around and still practicing, and I had him on the show and talked about it. And he was the first person to intubate somebody in
the field, which just hadn't been done before. Usually that there's someone just bagging them the whole time if they have to, or giving them a suscitation, but no one had been intubated in the field before. He was the first person to do it. So that came like later we're talking like, you know, seventies, like so sixty seventies when these things start to happen, So things were much
worse at the time of these surgeries. It's terrible. It's I mean, I'm and I know I always hate to like look back at medicine and judge because I know, like in forty years people are going to look back the things we're doing rightly so and be like monsters, monsters and the right because that's how medicine is supposed to be. We're suposed to be getting better. It's supposed to make look the things in the past look archaic. But yeah, it's an unfortunate. It's an unfortunate surgery that
she had. I'm really curious to know if she was having like, uh, what was the cause of her bleeding, what was going on? But I'm sure there's there's no good data on what it was or no good, no good, nothing written down about it.
And there's some books about her, and I've only read summaries of those books, uh, in preparation for this episode, you know, but like, yeah, it I'm not totally sure or well, it happens like while he's en route to Germany and he finds out and he turns around and rushes back home. And he gets home and everyone is like, well, you should probably unadopt that kid. I mean, you're like a guy, you know, and orwell is a devoted father, and he's like, the fuck, I will unadopt my child.
That is a child.
And his friends and family all pitch in to help him, and he is a devoted father.
His son is still alive. Oh wow, yeah, what are you gonna say? Sorry, No, that's that would have really taked I mean done with him. Yeah, he already did one. That would have been two strikes, yeah, exactly. No, he his son is still alive and as we were cord this as we recorded, he's still alive. And he wrote about his father's about eighty. He wrote about his father Beneath that intellectual exterior beat a heart of deep paternal warmth, and he was determined to continue to bring me up
as his son. And this and his writing actually about his father kind of helped me understand some of the stuff about how he doesn't address the personal things in his life. And his writing.
Orwell was very British. He was very stiff, upper lip about everything. He never talked about his emotions much. He tried not to show them, and he didn't write or talk about Eileen or her death because his private life was private. He also kind of didn't talk about it to his friends, which fucked him up.
I'm sure.
Yeah, his son is absolutely convinced he was destroyed by Eileen's death, and so his own journals, Orwell's George Orwell's journals were almost entirely about his garden, and what he wrote about Eileen's death was Pollyantha roses on Eileen's grave have all rooted well, wow, and it's like kind of sweet, you know, It's like you're like, oh, you're a sisman from Britain. You were not set up to understand your emotions.
Yeah right, He's just swallow it down yea. Yeah, and even then it found its way out. I mean that like translates deeply to like tremendous sorrow.
Yeah, And so he kept living his life for a while. He has a flat. His writing room is a wood shop with a carpenter's bench with chisels, because making bookshelves with no particular artistry is far more interesting in him than almost anything else. He makes a bunch of like toys for his kid, one of his richer's like first memory is like his dad carving a.
Toy for him.
And then the reason is his first memory is because Richard then falls and gets stitches in his head because he's extending on a stool to see it. You know, first memory, Yeah, totally. He enjoyed manual work as a distraction from writing. He did his actual writing in the living room on his typewriter. He never wore a suit or a hat. He always wore shabby corduroys with patched elbows, a shaggy tie, and unpolished shoes. He also wore trench coat instead of a suit.
Wow.
His friend George Woodcock wrote about him having once escaped from middle class conventions orwell, just did not find them worth the trouble of resuming.
Good for him, Yeah, good for him. When do you do nineteen eighty four?
So that's next.
Oh sorry, gotta keep cutting up.
But before we get into one of the best writers talking about the way that propaganda affects our brains, here's some people.
Who've paid us in order to have you listen to what they have to say.
And here back.
So the other thing that he before, we'll get to the nineteen four stuff in a minute. The other thing he does during this eventful year nineteen forty five is he throws himself into prisoner support for anarchists. On December twelfth, nineteen forty four, an anarchist publisher called Freedom Press, the one that had turned down Animal Farm, which is still around. It's been around since like the eighteen eighties or something.
It's like one of the longest running presses period. I mean, there's it's England, so there's probably presses that go back to eighteen or like eight sixty four or anything. I don't know whatever, But anyway, Freedom Press gets raided as well as five houses, and because they've been running an anti war newspaper called War Commentary, and they get imprisoned for running an anti war newspaper. Now, George Orwell, he's
pro war as fuck. He has sold his literary reputation, as he's talked about, and he's been arguing with his anarchist friends for years. At this point, George Woodcock wrote about it. Quote Orwell, who had been attacking the anarchists in his Partisan Review articles, declared closed season on them as soon as they became the victims of an immoderate exercise of authority, because yeah, he's pro war, but he's really pro free speech and he likes the anarchists. He just disagrees with them.
Yeah, yeah, it seems reasonable. Yeah, now he shouldn't. They should not be arrested for that. Yeah yeah.
So a few months after the anarchists all arrested, this group called the Freedom Defense Committee was set up basically to fight for free speech for anti war dissenters, and George Orwell asson the vice chair of this organization. This is the only official position he will ever hold in any civil organization in his life, because he hates bureaucracy, but fortunately anarchist bureaucracy is like kind of more chaotic and lucy goosey, so it's like more up his alley,
but he's still arguing about it. It's still kind of bureaucratic for him, and he like kind of bristles at it.
And the anarchists are two organs nice for him or yeah some ways.
Yeah, And so he finances this group an animal farm is doing really well, and for the first time in his life, he's doing really well financially. So he throws a ton of the royalties from animal farm towards getting anarchist out of jail, and to me, that is really fitting. The other thing he does is he sets up a trust fund for his son, and like most of his money is going into this trust for his son. He
lives super modestly, you know. Yeah, And some people will argue and I kind of buy it that he's like he didn't know he was about to die, but he like knows his health is kind of fucked.
Yeah, you know, so he's like forties. As a man in his forties, I feel that that's always on your mind.
Yeah, totally. How do I make sure my kids are okay, and like, yeah, exactly, Yeah, And he's an interesting man at this point. He has friends among everyone he considers to be basically on some level fighting for a free world. He's friends with the Labor Party, including British intelligence agents and anarchists, and obviously those two groups don't like each other.
M hm.
He won't abide a fact. He want to buy two groups. He want to buy fascists and he won't to buy Party communists, but he actually fights for the free speech of both of those groups. He believes that fascist and communists should be heavily socially shamed, and that everyone should know their ideas are evil, but that they shouldn't be locked up for having terrible ideas, only acting on them.
And considering he has thrown grenades into fascist trenches, I'm willing to believe him that he is suitably anti fascist to hold that position. He has the cred I think he's the he is the guy to make this argument. Yeah, but he's still organizing against them. When the last big leftist bookstore that wasn't under communist control gets bought out by a communist chains store, that sentence blew my mind too. If that blew your mind a little bit. That blew my mind a little.
Bit well as you to repeat it.
Yeah, when the last big leftist bookstore that wasn't under communist control got bought out by a communist chains store like Orwell, starts plotting with his anarchist friends to start an actual leftist bookstore that would be like pluralistic and basically just like not you know, not stal not under control Stalin. Yeah, and he also financed an anarchist literary journal. This does not make him an anarchist. I just as an anarchist, I'm going to find the places he overlaps
with us more than other people. Right, you know, he could do the same thing where he could other groups of people that he also was heavily involved with, right, Yeah, But he likes his friends and he wants to fight the communist stranghold on the left, you know. And at this point his life is kind of winding down. It sometimes seems like he knows it. He starts spending even
more time in bed Sick. He moves up to an island in Scotland called Jura and to live that good, good rural life, and he like first just for the summers, and he starts wintering there. Everyone's like, could you please fucking not winter there? You're always sick.
I was going to say, can you go back to like Algeria, Morocco or it was warm.
You know.
But he like he moves up there and he spends his time chopping wood and fishing with his son and like carving toys for his son, and he like gets a little bit of peace here at the end of his life. The wars are over. He's lost his wife, but he's got his kid, and he keeps fucking up
his health by being too active. Whenever they release him from the sick word, because I'll spend like months of a time down with ammonia or whatever, right, and they'll like release him from the sick word, and they'll be like, if we let you go, are you just going to go back to the fucking island and chop wood? And he's like, probably, I like the one they don't lie to us, Okay, Yeah, he's pretty honest about it, I think.
Yeah.
And at one time he almost drowns when his boat capsizes, and that was not good for his health, Oh my god. And the other thing he does is he writes nineteen eighty four, he's getting sicker and sicker. He catches friend of the Pod tuberculosis in nineteen forty seven, and he Fevershly writes this novel like Fevershly kind of literally in this case, he it's the most important thing he's going
to do with his life. And in terms of impact on society, it was I genuinely think this book helped bring multiple generations of people towards recognizing the problems of detalitarianism and how it can creep in anywhere. He also wrote about writing. He was actually not known as like Orwell the novelist. He was known as Orwell the political commentaor and essayist, and also like movie reviewer and book reviewer and like cultural critic and stuff like that, who also wrote some books.
You know.
He wrote about writing. He believed in writing and plain language without jargon. Author Christian Williams puts it, Orwell is not renowned as a deep thinker, partly because deep thinking has become confused with difficult writing. That is to say,
with writing that is difficult to read. It is in fact harder to produce smooth, clear prose, but readers are prone to assume that if they do not struggle over a passage, then the writer must not have either They're just as likely to suppose or a certain type of reader is anyway that if a piece of writing is obscure, it is always necessarily profound.
And that I know as a great breakdown for a simple person like myself. Yeah, who wants to read more stuff but wants to be able to do it without always struggling, hurt in your brain and hurting my brain to get through. I know, sometimes you have to. Just sometimes you have to. That's that's what has to happen. But that shouldn't always be the case. To get great thoughts and to hear read beautiful words, you.
Know, Yeah, if we should say our ideas as simply as they can be said without dumbing them down right, you know. And I didn't even I got that for morewell, and I'd kind of forgotten. He wrote an essay in nineteen forty six called Politics in the English Language, and it's about how to write persuasively and well. In it, he lays out six rules for writing, which I think are useful to any writer today, so I'm going to read them. One never use a metaphor simile or other
figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print. Two. Never use a long word where a short one will do. Three. If it is possible to cut out a word, always cut it out.
Four.
Never use the passive voice where you can use the active. Actually he cut out the word voice out of that sentence, but since the listener isn't necessarily a writer, I actually think it is an important word for context. So that's shout it that is. Yeah. Five, Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word, if you can think of an everyday or English equivalent. And this one people use to be like always xenophobic, right, And I
genuinely don't believe he's being xenophobic here. I genuinely believe he's talking about communicating clearly to people who can read. Yeah, his writing as best as possible.
Yeah.
Six, break any of these rules sooner than write anything outright barbarous. And I'm certain he would consider ZENOPHOBI even those that barbaras is actually kind of a kind of has a xenophobic originally. Yeah, yeah, well barbar being like, oh they don't speak like us, But like, I'm certain that he would have considered xenophobia to be like an example of being outright barbarous.
You know.
Another thing that happens here at the end of his life is what anyone listening this far, who's on the far left of the more authoritarian type, has been mad at me for not talking about what he is infamous for. In some circles, it's called Orwell's List. I'm assuming you live in a beautiful world where you haven't heard of Orwell's list. You've heard of Orwell's list.
I have not, and I'm a little worried, but I'm ready.
It sounds bad. Orwell's obsessive list maker, and he kept like lists on everything. It was like ten flowers I want to grow. Or he would have fucking loved modern internet, right buzzy, Yeah, he would have. He would have probably worked for some BuzzFeed articles. Like he was a working class in not working class, but he was a working writer, you know. And one thing he did privately was keep track of whom he's suspected to be secretly in bed
with the Kremlin, either Soviet spies or just Stalinists. He used the word communists. One of his friends was this Labor Party woman, Celia Kerwin, and she was trying to coordinate leftist propaganda against Stalinism. So she like asks orwell, like, hey, can you write some leftist anti Stalinist stuff for us? And he's like, no, I'm sick of shit, Like I'm not doing that. I'm too sick. But then he thought it over and he sent her a list of thirty
eight names. This was a list of people to not ask to write anti Soviet propaganda because they're probably pro Soviet, like secretly and tankies today make a huge deal out of this, and it's like not good to provide a list of aims to the government of suspected communists in the nineteen forties, right, Yeah, can we understand it in context? I can. It was nothing bad happened to any of these people. They were just not asked to write anti Soviet propaganda, right.
And it seems like it's being compared to like McCarthyism in the US, which I don't know much about what was happening in Britain at that time. So that was I feel like it wasn't to this extreme that we had.
Yeah, and it didn't go out to the intelligence community more broadly that we're aware of. It might have. It might have been turned into let's go spy in all these people, right, you know, but as far as I can tell, these were people that he did not believe would be good at writing anti Soviet propaganda because they were secretly pro Soviet.
Yeah, that sounds like a reasonable thing. Yeah, I mean the people like if if you have audience members who are upset about that, I'm sorry, I apologize. I'm sure there's some nuance to it that I'm missing, But seems like it was a pretty reasonable thing in context for him to do.
Yeah.
Yeah, And it's like it's one of those things where was like, yeah, probably he shouldn't have done it. I don't know, but I'm not. The way it's made out is just like he's a snitch who provides lists of communists, like keeps track of the communists and gives them to the government, which is like technically true and a brilliant example of the way that Orwell is taken out of context by everyone.
You know, I mean you who do you think takes him out of context the most? Of all the people who take him out of context? What bothers you the most?
Oh, okay, what bothers me the most is when the right wing try and have him. And actually we're going to talk a little bit more about how that happened and how it's not like his fault, but he could have taken some better steps around it. Three months before he died, he marries a woman named Sonia Brown. Now they get married in the hospital room. People like to argue about her, implying she was kind of gold digging
to marry this famous man who's dying. Others say that she was crucial to making his last days pleasant and that they were in love. There were people gold digging on him when he was dying. I don't know if she was among them. I think in some way she might have been politically gold digging. We'll talk about that
in a second. There's a lot of people who were like, wow, while I was alone with orwell, he told me in private that I get twenty five percent of all the money from his books from now on because he had like set up a company, Like he got told to set up a company to manage his copyrights, right, And I don't know whether those people were grifting him or not. And like there's like a whole thing about his financial
legacy that I only half care about. So I only half read about sure Tuberculosis killed George Orwell and January twenty first, nineteen fifty, when he was forty six years old. He wanted an Anglican burial, although he wasn't really religious. His son, Richard, was raised by his aunt, Avril Dunn and her husband, who was a Scottish wounded veteran named Bill Dunn. He wrote in his will that no one
should write a biography of him. I hope you'll forgive me, George that see what was broken a long time ago. And I tried not to be total biography. But immediately after he died, the right wing started using Orwell's legacy in the Cold War, Cold War being a phrase that George Orwell invented.
I didn't know that. I didn't either want.
To start this. I mean I always knew all of this. I don't have to do research. I know everything well clearly. People like often act like I know everything, and I'm like, no, I just read a lot of books over the course of a week, like shrink it down to six to nine thousand words.
It's pretty beautiful.
And Sonia, his widow, worked for the Propaganda Department into the British Foreign Office, and they got Animal Farm translated into sixteen languages, and then she, because she now owns the rights to his work, she married him. This is my conspiracy mindedness. I don't know enough about her. My like instinct is that she was like, I'm a British intelligence person and I want to use or what I was writing. I don't know.
You say, they don't know. Oh man, she could.
Have been amazing and fine, I don't know, but she certainly had very different politics than I do because she I mean, yes, she gets Animal Farm translated into sixteen languages, and then she sells the rights to Animal Farm to the fucking CIA in the United States. What who made it into a feature length cartoon cartoon? Yeah, there's the movie version of the nineteen fifty four version of Animal Farm is animated. So the first feature length animated film produced in England.
Actually, well, yeah, I think I have vague recollections of seeing that somewhere at some point.
Yeah, produced by the fucking CIA. That's awesome. Yeah, And so I'm like, but you know what, Orwell might have done that himself if he lived. I want to hold him as like he was with thoughts, but he clearly worked with the government for anti communist propaganda. That was clearly something he believed in doing and did numerous times.
Yeah, it's probably was something again that he didn't like. But he might have been like, all right, they seem to be firmly against this group of people. I am firmly against right.
The CIA might have been a step too far for him. It might not have been. I don't know, someone knows. People try to use him to be like he would have been pro Brexit, and there's like a lot of bunch of like orwell scholars who were like, oh, well, he liked England, which is true. He was actually kind of a patriot. He believed in like the better parts of what he saw in the English character, and so he hated colonialism partly for what it did to Britain.
That wasn't his primary concern, but you know, yeah, I think And so people were like, oh, you would hated the EU or and wanted Brexit, but I'm pretty sure he wrote extensively about wanting to set up basically the EU, and he was like, no, we should all come together to like make sure nothings don't happen again and stuff and like have like a I think even called the European Parliament. I didn't include this in the script because
I didn't do enough deep research onto it. So I don't think he would have been pro Brexit, but people like to argue about it.
M h.
And these days you have Elon Musk and other evil motherfuckers calling things Orwellian or well might have shot those people. Who's to say everyone wants to claim or Well, everyone loves Orwell everyone but one group, the authoritarian left. They hate him with a fiery passion. That hatred was reciprocated. It's part of why I like him. He actually wrote
explicitly about his words getting taken out of context. He wrote about animal farm, for example, quote I meant the moral to be that revolutions only affect improvement when the masses are alert and know how to chuck out their leaders as soon as the latter have done their job. The turning point of the story was supposed to be when the pigs kept the milk and apples for themselves.
And then in PARENTHESESI rights kronstat, which I did a whole six parter about, which was when the Soviets really finally betrayed the rest of the revolution and took power or they kind of did it all along with that was like the final battle kind of it. If people think I am defending the status quo, that is, I think because they have grown pessimistic and assume that there
is no alternative except dictatorship or lase fare capitalism. And so I do know he would have been fucking miserable about what has happened to animal farm and what has happened to his works to be used not for socialism but for capitalism.
Every group will mis represent a historical figure to their own ends, for sure. Yeah, but no seems to be more oblivious and do it incorrectly than the far right. Yeah, it's just it's amazing, like it, I know it's a joke, but the people who like are shocked that rage against the machine was like maybe not into their thing, or that the again, the show The Boys was making fun of them all along, like like it's it seems like a joke, but there really are people who just don't
see it. They don't see like these they No, one seems to be more oblivious than the far right.
Yeah, I think you're right, or they're just like because I think overall actually Orwall has this thing where he said at one point there's no intellectuals on the right. There used to be, but the last one died in like nineteen thirty eight or whatever. I don't remember exactly the quote, but like he clearly didn't think much of the right wing from an academic or intelligency at point of view or whatever. Yeah, And I think that overall the right wing is like not as good at culture.
They do it. Some amazing cultural stuff has come from the right wing right, like, they are sometimes very good at it, But overall, I would argue that the broad left is does a better job of it, whereas the right wing tends to like instead be better at like political power and violence.
You know, you argue it's more important to power.
Yeah, if you kill all of your opponents, then you don't have any opponents anymore, right exactly, Yeah, right, Yeah, And so I think in some ways they got to snipe our work, you know, right.
I mean it's like you don't find very many I mean, honestly, it's hard to find really funny right wing people, like the right wing like artists, it's hard to find ones they're really funny. You can probably find some they're really smart. I think that's that's for sure a given. But and certainly some musicians that are there are talented, but it's
hard to find really funny people. I mean, you get like comedians who are like somehow ashamed and go right sort of as like a weird response, like Louis c k. They do something bad and then they kind of like steer into it, you know. Yeah, but I don't think Louis c K ten fifteen years ago would have ever considered himself on the right wing, you know, or conservative.
When I get you get into this thing where it's like I feel like overall, the edge lord as a political construct, you know, like the person who's like edgy on purpose and pushing the boundaries actually used to be kind of a left wing construction, like all throughout the nineteenth century of a lot of this like literature that's like all blood and amorality and you know whatever, and
it's like leftist. And then at some point we've started to see that switch where the edge lord is now like kind of but more of a right wing construction. It's like more often a right wing construction than it used to be. And so like the edgy centrist, it's how you end up with, Like, what's that comedian who I actually like but I don't remember.
He's dead.
He smokes a lot. Fuck George Carlin, Yeah, George Carlin. You know he's like this like edgy, anti authoritarian, right. Yeah, and now the right wing is a little bit like trying to have him as their guy.
He's not absolutely so that that's hurtful.
Yeah, yeah, me as a great sketch Politics in America. I'll show you politics in America. One man holding up both puppets. Oh, I like the puppet on the left. Well, I like the puppet on the right.
Like, I don't know that bit, but I'll google it afterwards.
Yeah, it's good. It's just yelling. He's like, you have the same fucking puppet. Shut up America, go back to sleep.
He's you know, you see, like even on smaller levels, like just if you online, like the right wing trolls, all they do is basically use some variation of things they've learned from seeing people on the left respond to things, and then they just co opt them and make it sort of weirdly racist. That's just like the little trick
that they use every time. And yeah, it's very, very frustrating and it's very but it's really nice to do this deep dive on Orwell because he is so ubiquitous in pop culture and he's influenced so many things, and he's used every day from like you know, Apple ads in the past to like HEDD movies to like, you know, Elon Musk now on Twitter, like you're saying, calling everything that he doesn't like or welling in. It's like it's
constantly used. It's really nice to hear what a little bit more about what the person was actually into.
Yeah, and he was imperfect and absolutely committed to the left and overall tried to be better and like believed the end of the day his socialism. He didn't he didn't believe in common decency because he was a socialist. He believed in socialism because he believed in common decency. And it's just the fact that he's willing to go after the left when they're evil as well as the
right that like leaves him open to this misinterpretation. And I think it's because people are afraid of nuanced They want black and white stories with good guys and bad guys. I mean, this is a story where his anarchist friends are kind of being idiots, you know. I mean, I don't know, I don't I think I probably would have
been pro war in World War Two. I don't know, Like I didn't live in England at the time, but like overall, I'm like, could we please just kill the Nazis and figure out the rest later, you know, right, And they shouldn't have turned down animal farm probably and whatever.
But it's like, you know, like like he just believed in what he believed in and he tried to do it and he had he was emotionally stunted by being kind of a motherfucker and by yeah, I should poison you masculinity and Britishness and colonialness.
Yeah.
Yeah, But that's the story of George orwell as as I understand it. There's a million stories about him. They're all different.
This is mine.
That was very very cool. Thank you so much.
So where are you at in terms of imposter syndrome and still just kind of like fuck that guy? It's a great question. Okay, if you're still like this guy. I was still I wrote him off for years. I'm still at fuck this guy. Yeah, but he had imposter syndrome, But also fuck this guy.
Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I mean he might have said the same thing.
I know.
I wish he'd fucking written about how he actually felt about ship so I had a better fucking sense of that stuff, you know. Yeah, but he didn't. That's my problematic fave. Yeah, that was the original subtitle. This was George Orwell pro problematic fave. Probably I'm gonna go with George Orwell and the War for Common Decency and then subtitle it Marvel talking about a problematic fave.
Yeah.
Yeah, No, listener will already know what happened because it'll be in your podcast app.
You're in the future, I know.
But if people have a podcast app, is there anything that they can do with it?
Oh? You know what you could do with it? After you listen to these episodes, you should check out my podcast, The House of Pod. It is a fun look at things in public health and medicine and where it intersects with things like popular culture or the news. And I think you'll enjoy it. And I'm gonna keep begging Margaret to come onto my show as well, so you might hear her as well on it. In the near future.
You can definitely hear some episodes with Sophie and other people who've been on this podcast are also regular guests on the House of Pod And you'll like it.
Hell yeah. And if you're listening to this when it comes out, you probably have like one day left to back my Kickstarter. And if you're late, it's too late. They only make books that the No, it's a book. You can get it where we get books. It might be in pre order if it's before September twenty four, twenty twenty four. If it's after that, it's in print somewhere. Unless it's not unless you're listening to this three hundred years in the future, in which case, congratulations. And I'm
impressed at the longevity of digital media. And I hope that you all are alive. I don't have a lot of faith in you, but being alive. Really that's our fault. Sorry, sorry, sorry, the future. We should have tried harder.
We blew it.
Yeah anyway, unless we did. I mean, if you're listening, we didn't blow it. Totally true, you're alive to hear it. I hope your underground tunnels are nice. You're You're welcome.
Future.
I might help dig those tunnels. We'll see, we will see. You all next week. What's the World?
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