Part Two: Everyone Hates the Klan

only Sophie matters, so good, good, comically accurate. God, yeah, thank you. Ah. Well, okay, I'm Margaret, I'm the host. Sharne is our guest, Sophie is our producer. Ian is the one who cuts out all the dead space when my brain turns off in the middle of conversations and on. Woman wrote the theme music for us. And in part one we talked about who the kk are, slash were or whatever. Today we're going to talk about some of the people who sucked them up, because that's the cool

people who did cool stuff. Promise, whenever there are bad people doing bad things, there are cool people trying to funk those people up. Sometimes they succeed. Sometimes they fail, but you know, I may fail to win, but I will not fail to fight. Sometimes the cool people who are trying to sunk up the bad people are you and I here and now that's my inspirational speech. How do I do? It's really beautiful? Thanks? Oh poetry? Okay, and then I gotta remember I can't eat a little

bar while I'm talking. That doesn't work. I know how to do my job podcast. I've been hired to accomplish a task. What's that? What's that? Ian? We should know? Ian, No, we can't do that to Margaret. It was just time with the ballar? What is Oh wait, that's the thing that happened. I'm just gonna get murdered later. People are going to deep deep fake me from do you know how many times poor editors have had to your chewing? That's my that's my one thing. Do you know times

poor editors about here chewing? Like? I don't know how I'm in this medium because I have that thing where I like hate mouth noises like and it's called like something whatever it starts with the end. Yeah, I really have a thing about mouth noises. And I've listened to myself talking back. I don't like my mouth noises. I don't like anyone else's mouth noises. I cannot imagine being an editor cutting out mouth noises. No, that's that sounds like torture. So God bless mean and everyone else that

does that, because that sounds like absolute torture. ID be like being the person with trip to phobia and you have to edit out all the eyes out of the Biblical angels. Uh huh okay, So I as a joke that didn't work. Someone in the audience got it. Maybe, So let's start today off with the cool people of more or less the entire town of Carnegie, Pennsylvania, which in three drove off a clan invasion with bricks and bats and guns. Tell me more. Sorry, no, no, no, no,

Well I will vent, Sharine. I wasn't going to, but now I'm going to. We're gonna talk about the resistance of the second KKK mostly um and the third one because in my head I have this whole huge arc I want to do at some point about reconstruction and the wake of the Civil War, but I don't have

figured how to handle it yet, so I don't want to. Like, and I was like, I'm like I'm gonna tell these stories because I haven't got it together yet to tell the story about the people who fought the first Clan. There's this town sort of called Carnegie, Pennsylvania. It's technically a borough, not a town. It's sort of part of Pittsburgh. I don't know, it's weird. The name of the person who runs it isn't a mayor. It's a Burgess. Oh yeah,

I don't know. I'm not sure. Three yes. In the nine twenties it was a steel town and it was full of black folks who had fled Jim Crow South Catholic immigrants from Ireland and Italy and Eastern Europe. But half the town was Catholic, which I then presume means like more than half the town is the sort of folks that the clan would be targeting for violence. The KKK didn't like them. They didn't like I have a question. If it's about Burgesses, I can't answer. I don't know.

How does someone who hates Catholics and Walton to die. How can you tell someone's Catholic? Probably Irish accents or Italian accents back then. Okay, so that's like because that's like an interest, like unless you're having a conversation with someone like being I mean not saying it's easy, but it is easier to direct your hate at someone that looks different than you, because that look different than you and you can you can spot them and single them out.

But it's just interesting that Catholicism was so hated because like, how can you tell I know, and I mean you know, you could be like, okay, well they're hanging out at a Catholic church or I mean it's funny cause too because you're like, oh, they're Irish and like, well, I mean you know, Ireland is not solely Catholic, right, but the people who were poor and had to flee um the ravages of colonialism were more likely to be Catholic,

but again still not universally. But maybe they don't think that much and maybe yeah yeah, and so you know, Okay, the clan they don't like Catholics, they don't like immigrants, and they really really don't like black people not coming to i'd say, not coming to their neighborhood. But it's not the clans neighborhood. Yeah, yeah, it's like their country that in their mind, you know, that we stole this

fair and square. And most of the people that we're talking about, most of the clans people were talking about, came as from as far away as Texas. Most came from Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, and Kentucky. At the at the clan's peak, there were thirty three branches of the KKK in Allegheny County, where all this takes place. Um, but they didn't call their branches branches. They called them claverns. No,

they didn't. They did with a K oh wait wait really, yes, it's like the Kardashians just needing to put o K in front of every fucking thing. No, thank you, Yeah, no, they put it and they just made up nonsense words for everything everything. You would take a regular word and you would come up with a new word that has a U in it. I think, and I don't. I

didn't put this in the script. I think that they called their like list of rules the chlorin huh, something like the k fascination originated because it's like, what is coup? Is that like like a Greek who close? Is the group? Okay? Or circle or something? Yeah, I don't know. There's just something to the Kardashian connection that I will think about it. But okay, yeah, okay, don't know about pop culture. Is

the is the KKK Handbook? The is it? It's yeah, because they're fucking I want to say they're fucking clowns, but actually clowns way cooler than the clan um. Actually, yeah, Sophie with the jokes. Yea. Anyway, August, really close to a hundred years ago, the clan holds a rally out thousand strong on a farm outside overlooking Carnegie. It's basically like they're planning an invasion of Carnegie and they initiate a thousand new violent bigots. Uh. They big big. They

burn a big old cross fifty fet tall. This is like the thing that they like all of their big rallies. They're like big. I mean they're big, like festivals of hatred, and they're like competing to see you can, like which one can have the biggest cross to set on fire. Apparently a lot of times they would like fail at

the engineering and the crosses would fall over. I'm not currently aware of any time that they fell over on fire on top of klansmen, but if anyone is aware, please let me know because it must have happened at some point. Yeah, that would rule which probability was. Yeah. Um, they spent days preparing the site. The Grand Wizard of the KKK, which is their main leader, was there. He'd replaced his predecessor, the one who dipped out when going got tough. They had fireworks that made a big red

ks in the sky. No, like, it's like cartoon villain. Like, I don't know, it's just it's like a postcard villain, you know. Yeah, picnics and families and all that ship these huge social events, these hate rallies. People from the town aren't really excited about this for some odd reason. At one point, anti clan folks took six pot shots at their sentries and no one was hit but the sniper. The snipers were never found. One account claims that they

were warning shots. Um, but I think no one actually knows whether they like tried to hit anyone had missed, or whether they were just like, we're going to go shoot some guns near the clan rally. Because those people right after the cross burning, the clans wanted to cap off the night by marching through the nearby town or borough of Carnegie, Pennsylvania. They preferred to march at night because of that whole night rates thing. I think also they thought it made them look scarier and that their

weapons were easier to conceal because it's dark. And when I say marching through the nearby town, it was absolutely clear that they're out for blood. It's hard to know exactly whether they were like, let's go rough up a few people, or whether they were like trying to just really run riot on the whole place, because again trying not to focus on atrocities here, but they've been doing stuff like that, and anti black folks in particular have been doing stuff like that in the recent past. At

this point they had a problem. The Burgess of Carnegie was an Irish Catholic guy, John F. Conley, and he didn't like the clan in part because the clan kept, you know, harassing and murdering people. And so when the clan had asked if they could march, she was like, no, you can't parade through town. You're the KKK and the grand Wizard he like, he plays this up very carefully, right, he goes back and I'm not this is not direct quotes.

He's like, hey, buds, the town they say no, But what do you say, and the people are like, let's do it anyway. They didn't help that the chief of police of Carnegie was in the clan. Oh I mean surprised, no, disappointed? Yeah, yeah, totally. And one of the things that's complicated about actually is one of the reasons that this story is particularly interesting

to me. Complicatedly looking for fights. As part of the clan's recruitment strategy, um, they would intentionally hold parades in Catholic areas, hoping to spur backlash so that they could kind of like riot and look cool and tough and like have beat up some people, you know, and kind of like vaguely make it look like self defense or whatever. Free speech. But it's this works when the KKK wins when they quote their recruitment works really well when they

quote run kneed when streets run knee deep in Catholic blood. Oh. They prefer their fights when they have numbers like forty to one, basically, and I think this is remarkably consistent across fascist ideologies. I think fascism is an ideology of cowardice. I think it is about masking fear with a tough guy attitude over people that you can wildly overpower. Well, so they have a market. It's a good way to put that for like my my little brain if appreciates

that breakdown, because it's very true. Thanks a lot of time thinking about it, and a a lot of conversations like back in the day with UM some European anti fascists like in UM, like like us talking to someone in Bulgaria once while I was there and and they were talking about how it's like, look, when when we win against the fascists, their numbers go down because they don't like being on the losing side as compared to the anti fascist side. When we our numbers go down only

if they kill us. Unfortunately. There it's like this, it's ultimately all about insecurity, which is like kind of sad. Yeah, totally pathetic, sad, not sad like boo who you know what I mean? Totally Yeah. Sot Klansmen out of start marching towards the town. At the front of their parade is a car with a five foot tall lit up electric KKK light and wow, that must have taken a

lot of work. Uh huh. Wow. They have a marching band, they have torches Allah Charlottesville, and they tried to march into town over a train bridge, but the people of Carnegie had blocked it with some trucks, so they marched to another bridge, and this one leads right into the Irish part of town. And when they get there, a car is sideways across the road and there's a huge crowd of Carnegieans who are there to politely say Nope, you can't come the fucking Klansmen. By politely, I mean

they threw it at them. The klansmen successfully moved the car, but the crowd drives them back throwing at them. And one of the things that's frustrating for me, all the history that I would find focuses on the clan and like who was there for the clan and not the people who fought them off, partly because the people who fought them off didn't really write any histories about it as far as anyone can tell. There's some people who have done some researchers are really good. I'm gonna quote

it a couple of times. There's a a graphic novel by Bill campbell Um, a black science fiction author, called The Day the Clan Came to Town, who did a lot of research and grew up in Carnegie. But as far as I can tell, this was a consciously diverse group that had come together against across racial and cultural divides to team up for community defense. I believe that there were black fighters, Italian fighters, Jewish fighters, Irish fighters,

and Armenian fighters in the crowd. But I I don't know a ton about it, you know, Yeah, well, I mean bring you bring up a good point about who history is written by usually, you know, and like what gets focused on and how many other details about so

many things that we don't know. Yeah, And it's and it's even like histories written by the victors or whatever and the clan like lose not only about the victors, it's about like the biases, I think more so, it's not about Yeah, it's just like what just it's like a just by chance, what one person thinks is important in that moment to document versus something else. And if they're white or straight or whatever it is, and they're writing about certain histories, they're going to focus on certain

things that only they think is important. So it's like there's no such thing as unbiased anything when it comes to history. Totally. Yeah, No, that's such a because it's like I want to find moments of black resistance, and I want to find moments of multiracial resistance, and I want to find the people who are doing these things. But a lot of the people writing about it are focused on the clan as an evil entity or a

good entity. But most people run about his evil entity at this point, I think, And so they want to focus on the individuals within the clan. Yeah, so they're at this bridge, A diverse crowd of people that organized for their own defense of their own borrow came together start driving them back. The clan's banned at this point, is like, you know what funk this? And they had the marching band. About the marching band, just the people there were like trumpets and the ship. Yeah, they run

a trumpet to a gunfight. Um, well, at this point, it's a brick fight, I think. Oh, and cops show up and not all of them are klansmen. About half of them, I think are. I'm not entirely cos that's that's lower than you know, it's more than I thought. Half. Yeah, but I don't remember where I got that. I remember that not all of them were klansmen, but that the chief of police is. But I don't remember what were yeah, and they're like, hey, buds, this isn't a good idea

to the clan, and the clan ignores them. Eventually, three hundred clansmen out of the people who are on the march, three hundred burst through the crowd and charge into the town. And they're like singing onward Christian Soldiers as they do it, because they're off on a fucking holy war, right a crusade? Yea for them? Yeah, totally. And so this is three hundred out of twenty thousand who are brave enough to

actually go throw down. Um. When you put it that way, it's very I don't know a music I know, and I think that that's what we need to like remember, yeah, fighting breaks out for real. There's clubs and maces and knives and scattered gunfire because you don't march into a town that doesn't want you there, that has prepared for you and have it go easy. Women on rooftops are throwing bricks and coal at the klansmen like whatever they

can find. This an asshole guy Thomas rankin Abbot, He's from a rural town about twenty miles further down the road. He gets himself shot in the head, and he does himself a dying and the clansmen break and run. He does himself way to see that one again. He does himself a dying. He becomes a dead person instead of like that, and all of his buddies, the Klansmen, they break and run as soon as he's and they're like, they're yeah, I know, they're like, they're shooting guns and

ship at people. They shoot a bunch of people, but no one else dies in this particular encounter. But as soon as one of theirs gets shot in the head, they're all like, oh fuck, and they run the funk away. They break and run. They ditched their guns in the street for fear of being arrested with them. Hundreds hundreds of Revolvers are recovered from the streets um and there's no like specific evidence that the recovered revolvers were the

Clans revolvers. But my theory that they were the Clans revolvers is based on the fact that if you're in your own town, you don't have to ditch your gun in the street. Yeah, you can take it home, or you can ditch it somewhere you can get it later, because you probably know, you g it's so funny that they were so crusade, like had their guns and everything, and like the police like they are telling what to do, and they dropped them because they don't want to get arrested.

Let's just yeah, yeah, totally totally of your power. Totally and then also like run into as soon as the gunfight is two sided, they're like, oh ship, they have guns, like we can die. Yeah, hundreds of them had guns. A local undertaker who sounds like a gem of a person I'm not being sarcastic, was arrested for the quote unquote murder of the Klansman. I'm putting that in air quotes because I don't think it was murder. And this guy, the guy who was arrested was a sixty five year

old undertaker named Patty McDermott. His name is Patty, so he's probably Irish Catholic Patty. But there was too much chaos that night and too many can flicting witness statements, so Patty was set free after a while because they couldn't really pin it on him. However, after this whole thing, I'm gonna get to a little bit where this becomes this big like the dead dude becomes a murder and ship Patty gets arrested again on the same charge, and it goes to trial and he's found not guilty at

a jury trial. No idea whether the sixty five year old undertaker shot the klansman, I would support him a percent either way. Yeah, yeah, justice for Patty, yeah. And so the KKK turns the death of their guy into propaganda, and a lot of the history is like, and this spiked their numbers, um, because they're like, oh, that damn irishman shot from the alley behind a Catholic church, which

is true. The dude got shot right in front of a Catholic church, um, And they're like, if we'd wanted, we could have taken that town, but we're too law abiding. But like, no, they got fucking beat, they got their asses kicked, and they ran away. Yeah. It's like the point you made about it boils down to it's just like they don't wanna they they're in it as long as they're like the big guy that the winners, you know, and as soon as it starts to like turn on them,

they're like, actually, I'm gonna flip. I'm just gonna run totally not necessarily flip more yeah more just runs yeah. And the clan used this opportunity to griff their members because of course they did. They nothing, ever, changes. They raised sixteen thousands and donations for the families of the family of their martyr, which is about two hundred thousand dollars today, of which five thousands, so less than a

third actually made it to the family of course. Yeah. Meanwhile, at a nearby Catholic town called Everson, the KKK drove through and some local kids jumped them, stole all their ship, and then they had like a mock ceremony to make fun of it all because they had all like the KKK stuff, and they're like, oh, where the KKK. Love that for them, but love that for us, love it, And so the k K they're like, all right, we're

gonna We're taking western Pennsylvania. We're gonna take this place, you know, And so they call for an even bigger and more important rally. Shortly after all of this, they sent three thousand plain clothes armed clansmen to a town of the town of Scottsdale, Pennsylvania. They had fucking machine guns and trucks only ten thousand clansmen showed up to the rally forty tho non clan spectators, which is to say, probably forty anti clan people, but it might have been

forty neutral people. But I don't know. I can't really imagine showing up neutral in this particular context. The history I read was like spectator and I'm like, what does that mean? And the local Exalted Cyclops, which was the local leader. That's can't I can't believe that's real. Yeah, I can't believe it's real Exalted Cyclops. Yeah, they Exalted Cyclops. Why is why is one eye good for you? I don't understand whatever, because they're sucking the worst kind of

D and D nerds that have ever existed. But we have a new sponsor this week has a jingle. The jingle is don't stare at your feet when you cross the street, jay walk, jaywalk, make sure cars are plenty far than jay walk, jay walk. Because our sponsors the concept of jaywalking, it was responsible to do so, thank you. Yeah, and uh I actually they sent me some free jaywalking in the mail. Oh great, cool? Yea, I was running

out code don't get hit by cars O good? Yeah or be yeah, totally for any fines you might incur. Oh my god, I don't know if it's still exists. But one time I was in Sweden and they had this, uh, this turnstyle hopper union because they believe that the turns the public transit should be free. So there's a union of people who hoped the turnstiles that pays your fines if you get caught hopping. To love that. Yeah, well

looks like true community organizing, I know. And I don't know anything about how it went down or anything, because I was just a traveler who went through and learned about it and then didn't follow up. Again, here's some advertisers and we are back and we are talking about how the clan is trying to take Scott's Dale. The local cyclops with his one good eye, he chickens out

at the last minutes, of course he does. And only about twere of the ten thousand clansmen go on the march into town, and they don't wear their hoods or robes or anything because they're too afraid. Uh. They were three hours late, they were wildly outnumbered, and they turned around and left dejected, whereupon a few random anti clans people took some shots at them. I don't think anyone was hit. I think it was just like you get

the funk out of here. I mean, it's just a good reminder that like usually hate is fueled by like a really insecure desire to like power or to remain in power. And it's all about like it's not like a real drive, like a human drive like that, that makes sense. And and then it's like the other side, it's like you're fighting to survive and you're fighting to

like to protect the people you love. And I think that drive maintains so much more than like a very flimsy power grab or like cowardly attempt at staying on top. And I feel like that is where the difference happens. And I'm not sure if I'm articulating myself when I'm what I'm trying to say, but I feel like, no, no,

that that makes sense. Yeah, because yeah, the people who are defending who are actually defending themselves in their ways of life, versus people who are defending their privileged position that they then think means that they're defending their way of life, the way of life of being the slave owner, often in a literal sense. You know, Yeah, there's no

deeper connection to humanity. There there's just like it's literally just about your personal gain and power, and I don't know, there's there's no way you can be like it's it's my right to like as a human to own people. Like No, actually the only thing that's true is like you can have a right to live and like protect yourself and like those basic core things are what maintained versus like really shitty stupid human stuff. It's just like service level. Yeah, but I'll think about that more and

make it more another another time. Now you're onto something. I want to end this part of the story, the Carnegie part of the story in western Pennsylvania part of the story, with some reflections from the author I was talking about earlier, Bill Campbell, the black science fiction author who grew up in Carnegie, who wrote a graphic novel I which I highly reck amend to people. The The graphic novel is called The Day the Clan Came to Town, and this is from his afterward. The immigrants in this

story are indeed the victors. They beat the clan that day and one in their ultimate goal of kicking the Clan out of Pennsylvania century ago. But they want an even larger victory. They ultimately became quote white, and as a result, became the beneficiaries of all that whiteness has to offer in this country. Once you're admitted into any club, you want to act as though you've always been a member. There's no surprise that this story has gone largely untold.

A good friend of Mine Comics creator Jiba Mulay Anderson often says that whiteness is a racer. Countless European folk, wast traditions and attitudes have actually eventually been washed away upon coming to these shores in order for folks to be considered quote white. This exchange has been rewarded with

material gain. Obviously, this affords many a convenient amnesia and a convenient narrative of how America has always greeted immigrants with open arms and this latest wave is somehow different, how they worked hard to get what they have, and that all other people have to do is work hard and so on, when really all that happened is they were granted whiteness and different forms of discrimination were removed from their paths. That's very well put and something I

will think about longer. I have to chew on that yeah. I mean, I'd be curious your take on it if you come up with thoughts on it later. I mean, it's just a really good point about I just never I mean also, I just never thought of it that way. I think it's like, uh, the idea that like, once you're given that, once you're granted access into the club and you realize how much easier your life can be,

you don't want to leave it. And at the same time, you don't want to deny yourself or like any like, you don't want to make it seem like you always were there because you know that what the other side is like and the I don't know's there's there's a lot of layers there, and I feel like the the removal of one discrimination from your life that bit like I don't know if my brain is starting to break, Margaret,

and I wish I could pose correctly. But I really liked that take on the idea of immigrants that maybe we'ld never considered themselves this like overarching label of white suddenly come here and realize the privilege that comes with being white and how easy, how much easy? I mean like, also, if you have a family and your life could be easier X Y Z way like why why would you

choose to suffer? You know, and so there's there's a lot of arguments there, and uh, you know I have to do is give up your language and your and besides like St. Patrick's Day or God for Big Columbus Day or these liked little tiny things you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah I will. I will try to be smarter next time T talk about no no, no, you're you're you're doing great, thanks Margaret, all right, cost and validation than you. Well, it's easy to offer you constant validation keep all of

this sweet stuff is Yeah. So another group that fought the second incarnation of the Clan, the people of Carnegie, are mysterious in that it's it seems like their history was barely written. This next group, they're mysterious in that they're they're fucking mysterious, like to the degree where I found a bunch of references to them existing, but I like only kind of believe that they existed. This happens

to me a lot on the show. There's like all of these stories and history that are like so like amazing, and I'm like but really, well, because you can't trust history, we just we talked about that, like real, you can't just read something and be like fat because that's usually not unless you're like reading a math equation or something right totally, And so the next part feels a little bit like a comic book, but frankly so does the clan. And this group set themselves up to be the mirror

image of the clan. They are the Knights of the Flaming Circle. No, have you ever heard of the Knights of the Flaming Circle? Okay, so in the early nineties, this group rises up to counter the KKK, the Knights of the Flaming Circle or the Red Knights or the Knights of the Burning Ring. They have a lot of names. And since the KKK would take any white Protestant man, the Knights of the Flaming Circle will take anyone who isn't a white Protestant man. Wait, that is the best

criteria of club admittes. So like that's like the criteria to be on my podcast, Like the only criteria to be a white podcast that you can't be a white guy. Yeah, like, as long as are specifically not what the Protestant with the with the KKK let's in and you know, and I like, I know that there were plenty of Protestant manuated the Klan, but whatever, this isn't their group. We don't know a ton about them. But they were active throughout the mid Atlantic, in the Midwest and beyond, I

believe less so in the South. They this is sketchy. They dressed in white robes and they burned giant circles instead of crosses. They would show up wherever the KKK was burning crosses and then burned circles, which is goofy as fuck, like this weird game of tic tac toe. Yeah, oh my god, I just thought of it that way. Wait, what why would why did you decide to dress like them? I think, Oh, I think they're being like yeah, yeah, it was so funny though, to just show up like

you got cross, I got a circle? What now I can't win this tic tac toe game? We're going to it? I mean like it also covered yourself in a white sheet, like no one knows who you are underneath that. Well, they actually they wore white robes, but they did not wear hoods, and they did not wear point hats or anything like that. No masks and no hats, And I think that was to make it clear that they weren't.

They could probably take that joke only so far. You know, what I have not been able to find is whether or not Johnny Cash was referencing potential affiliation with the Knights the Burning Ring when he said I fell into

a burning ring of fire unsure to be determined. And their anonymous communicate from they said that they were a quote movement that will wring the earth with blazing justice to all weird, enemy of all clans with a C and clans with a K. We believe in liberty for every human being, black, white, or yellow, regardless of race, religion, or creed. I love that they brought up the k

C thing totally. I'm so over that, Like I like, thank you for distinguishing that, and also just like that's just metal as fuck, Like I don't know, it's so cool. They probably got their start about a month after some people in um the town of Stupentsville, Ohio, like fucked up a clan march. They overturned clans cars, they tore up clan flags, they beat klansmen with bricks and clubs and ship like. This thing that happened in Carnegie is an example not a like, not like the thing that

turned the tide. It kind of turned the tiding western Pennsylvania, but like this ship was happening, you know, like klansmen would sometimes fun people up, but sometimes klansmen would get sucked up. So a month after this clan rally gets sucked up, the these Nights of the Flaming Circle announced themselves. Later, a dentist claimed to be the founder of the organization, which is noteworthy in that the head of the clan was a dentist. To whoa, wait, that deserves examining, right,

because teeth are white. Maybe there's something there. I don't know. Sorry that was a stretcher, but that is a very interesting coincidence. My current theory is either raw coincidence or they probably didn't really have a founder or a leader, like in a really strict sense everything about them. I don't think they were like anarchists, but they were very

anarchistic in a lot of ways. I suspect that the dentist was like, oh, I'll be the I'll be in charge because we're the mirror of the clan and I'm a like I would believe that. I would believe that take because like they're they're already trolling so hard, like why not just have the cherry on top and be like, who's the dentist here? Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, you're in charge. And so they wore no masks or hoods. Their logo as a red circle with a statue of liberty in

the middle. They had no central organization. They had chapters because they're not a grift. They had chapters in Vermont, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Ohio, Illinois, Iowa, and New Mexico. They had organizers in every city in Ohio because that seemed to be where they were based out of. And the KKK accused them of being anarchists, but that's I found no evidence besides the fact that the clan accused them of it. And also there's someone it's I believe it is an

actually ideologically diverse movement. They were a lot like today's anti fascists, to quote a right up on the site the New Eclipse. They used tactics like putting pressure on meeting halls to refuse to allow the clan to meet there, publishing lists of clan members, destroying the anonymity of the organization, organizing counter demonstrations to show mass opposition to the clan and what it stood for, physically interrupting their parades and rallies,

assaulting clan members and damaging their property. Beautiful. Yeah, just all the tried and true ship. Yeah, I wonder do we know not that it matters, but like do we know that the leaders are like the not the leaders, but like the people that initiated it, Like are they white?

Are they? Like? Yeah, I either way, it's sick, but like it would be interesting to know how they came together that way, I know, And like in all of these random times when they're like, oh, an anti clan people sucked up a clan rally, I'm like I kind of want to know because it's written out of history whether it was like a primarily black thing, whether it was a like primarily Irish thing, or whether it was a combo yeah, and like yeah, and and people don't

talk about it because people don't like talking about race in this stupid country, and so I I frankly don't know. But also just like you bring up a good point about how we always hear about the clan fucking people up, and that's like the thing we learned about in history that they did these like atrocities or like they were at this group that was hateful, But wouldn't it have been nice to learn about the other way, like how people like fucked them up and fought back, because we

never learned about at least I didn't. So it's like I think maybe that also just like a deeper thing about how humans focus on bad ship and like how that's the only thing that gets remembered in history or whatever.

But that part of history is a really good reminder of like the other side of humanity because like just thinking about the clan the same way I thought like everyone was racist or whatever, like what it's just like the same kind of thing where you forget that you can't have one without the other, and that the other is like fighting twice as hard at the same time.

It was a good reminder of that. Yeah, and it it it's just this ebb and flow, you know, and like and even though we have not defeated the concepts that the clan brings to bear right, we probably never

truly will, but we should always be trying to. We have as a society defeated the clan multiple times and destroyed multiple clan organizations, you know, within five years from five million members to thirty thousand members, by shaming them, by exposing them, by beating the ship out of them, by legislating against them, by by doing everything that we can right and like and that is not you know,

I wouldn't want to be like ha ha. And then there was this little blip called the Ku Klux Klan, and we kicked the ship out of them because like, no, they fucked things up, right, And then oh yeah, there's definitely like the reality of how shitty they are is there. But learning about the the people that thought back is also I think, just like because I can get really cynical and just be like, humanity sucks, We're fucking this

place up. We don't deserve to be here. But then like seeing people that like in face of whatever kind of danger or evil, like they're still there like in the front being like fuck you, I'm going to dress like you have burn a circle right next to your act. That was So that's like just so cool. And I feel like if kids learned about that, I think that would like empower them to like think like that in a way, like like empower them to like want to

fight back against that stuff. I know, it's like a different conversation about education and history and all that stuff. But I do think it's it's it's it's just sad that we don't learn about those people because maybe they still a tribute them to like riots and violence and fucking things up. But I don't know, it's it's not I don't know. I just it's just I think it's it would be nice to learn about that as children. Yeah. No, absolutely knowing that you can do something as a big

part of it. Yeah, That's what I'm trying to say, even if, like, even if it's dangerous, even if like like knowing that you can pick the not safe path and that that's okay. Yeah. No, I think about this stuff way too much. Um okay. But what I also think about is the following um looney tunes thing that they did, which was one time the clan was going to have a parade with like cars, so they just lined the road with roofing tax tires. That is just genius,

chef's kiss. Whoever thought of that, whoever comment did that? Amazing? Yeah in Williamson County, Illinois. Uh, And I've heard this story told from a different perspective, but not about I'll get to that. The Flaming Circle and Williamson County, Illinois was made up of miners immigrants I believe since it's separating miners and immigrants, I actually wonder whether that means

black miners. I don't know, miners, immigrants, bootleggers, right, because the bootleggers hate the clan because the Clan is the army of prohibition, And even a bunch of cops are part of the Flaming Circle because they don't want to enforce prohibition because they like drinking. Well, other cops in the area were klansmen. Some pro Clan cops shot up an ad like that. Wait, wait, I like that you differentiated. But some police were against the clan because of alcohol,

not because of racism. Yeah, I mean, like specifically, the thing I read was cops who didn't want to enforce prohibition, not cops who are and tracism. No, no, no, that's that's a very good point. And so some pro Clan cops shot up an anti clan meeting, a Flaming Circle meeting, and they injured someone. And so the guy goes to the hospital, and while he's in the hospital, an anti Clan person went and shot and killed one of the klansman cops, a guy named Caesar Cagel. So the clan

surrounds the hospital and shoots it up. The National Guard gets called in, and for the next year and a half the whole county is caught up in this like crazy violent struggle of clan versus anti clan. And a particular note, a Jewish gangster named Charlie Burger was involved. He was a bootlegging guy, and him and another bootlegger gang, his gang and another bootlegger gang put aside their differences to like funk up the clan and then after they drove the clan out of town, they went to war

against each other and it was terrible. But which is another I don't know enough about this guy to make a moral judgment on him. He is Jewish immigrant who was like whatever, I'm going to be a bootlegger and did this thing. I don't know. But when you're talking about like people can get together and fight the bad things, bad people can do it, like like complicated people can still fight against bad things. You know, you don't have to be a paragon of virtue to be like, you

know what, I'm going to fight the clan. You know, that's like the lowest bar, like like I'm a violent, outspoken bigot, is the worst possible thing, and so everyone is better than them, you know, I mean even a cough that just like he wants to drink, you know

what I mean, that's just like that counts cots. You know, it probably sucks like but so in the end, the anti clan, the weird affiliation of cops and bootleggers and Catholics and trade union miners whatever, they went out and they stopped clan organizing in the county by And that's all I've been able to find. I haven't been able to find any like actual books about the Red Circle.

Secret societies, especially informal ones are weird like that. But good on you Tick tac toe, Antifa and anti and there's more, though, there's more that I can tell you about. But there's more, there is more, but first can't wait. First, you do have to wait, that's the thing, um, because there's other things that you could learn about, like jay walking as a you know, if someone gets hit by a car because I told him to jaywalk, I'm gonna feel so guilty. But you'll never know that's true. That's

I don't know, ignorance is blissed. Yeah, I think for yourself and or purchase these goods and services. One of those two you pick. We are back. We have a couple more stories. Yeah, another group that fought the KKK, and this one I want to include for a couple of reasons. One is a serious diversity of tactics and how people have fought the KKK. Sometimes it's these armed and organized groups. Sometimes it's spontaneous community defense and street brawls.

Sometimes it's newspaper expose as Sometimes it's the federal troops like in the reconstruction South. Sometimes it's lawsuits. And I'm gonna talking about a lawsuit that stopped at dred Strong militia of klansmen in the eighties. A bunch a law girls got together. That's true. You know what critical support for law girls. Yeah, they come through sometimes, you know, they really do. You know, I'm just saying I'm not one.

That doesn't mean that I'm inherently against them. Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm not saying they can't do some good out there, like good. I'm glad. Yeah. So the US War in Vietnam, when the US invaded Vietnam and it was bad. It brought about a hundred and thirty thousand Vietnamese refugees to the US, where they were of course met with open arms and respect and care just getting racism. They were met with racism a bunch off. I mean,

I'm sure it was different for different people's experiences. I can't speak to her well, any of their experiences, because that's not my experience. A bunch of refugees settled in Sea Drift, Texas on the Gulf in the late seventies because there were fishers and it seemed like a good place to fish. It was a good place to fish.

Racist locals got really mad about the competition. They got mad that the Vietnamese were getting help from the government and to bring back that old weird thing because they were getting help from the Catholic Church. This is a strange thread. I did not plan for this thread. I what is up with in this case? No, you know, because by this point I think most of the anti

Catholics I think is largely subsided. I don't know, um, but it all boiled down to like just hating the pope, like is that I don't know, Is it that simple. I don't. I I don't know. I frankly don't understand. I can I can almost understand the ninety I can't really, but like I could, I could understand how to express the opinions of the nineteen twenties anti Catholic, the nineteen eighties, nineteen seventies anti Catholic Protestant. No, I don't understand um,

and I presume most of it was racism. But I did find a couple of references to the fact that the fact that they were sponsored by the government and the Catholic Church was part of what fueled the racist anger and a majority I believe of the Vietnamese refugees are a greater percentage of the Vietnamese refugees were Catholic than Vietnamese people who stayed in Vietnam, as I understand from I was bugging one of my friends about this today,

and the language barrier, of course didn't help the local fishers and the refugee fishers get along. U fishing practices were different about like how far apart to space crab traps um, but no one But the reason I'm like knowledge sucking racism is because no one bothered or was able to like talk to the refugees about that and in the lateeen seventies. I'm going to quote np ares passive voice, horrible way of phrasing this, because I want

to drag NPR for this fucking statement. Quote. A local white crabber was shot and killed in a dispute with Vietnamese fisherman over fishing territory. Two Vietnamese men were charged with murder and acquitted on the grounds of self defense. That's when the Ku Klux Klan showed up and things got ugly. I hate this paragraph. I hate it because first and foremost the immigrant fishers, they were proven in

court to have been acting in self defense. So leading with a white guy got killed, not a white guy fucked around and subsequently found out. It's like you're already framing of a story, a narrative that you're pushing. Yeah, I don't know. Like even the US legals, the famously biased was like, no, that was self defense. And the next thing up, like things got ugly when the KKK showed up, Like it sounds like things were pretty Yeah, it would a cute way to summarize atrocities of the

I know. And also things were already bad they were. These two people had to defend themselves from Bigot. After the acquittal of the Vietnamese fishers, a bunch of clansmen set fired to Vietnamese houses and boats. Some of the Vietnamese refugees fled to Louisiana for safety. I can't even fucking imagine fleeing one more and then showing up and having to deal with them. The clan wasn't happy. They wanted to drive the rest of them off too, so

they spent two years fucking with people. They would like burn crosses and people's yards. They would they were like training people for guerrilla warfare and the hills for the coming race war. They were driving around a boat with like an effigy of a hanged Vietnamese fisher on it. They would put armed militiamen on all the white owned boats.

They were they were just doing some awful ship hellish And of course the KKK would in the propaganda would be like, and they're all secret communists too, um, which is particularly funny since the refugee Vietnamese community was mostly anti Communists. That's what the war was about, Like, it was the people who flood allied with the US and the Vietnamese War. Um, but never underestimate the political naivete of racists. Yeah, like they can't think that deeply, you

know what I mean. It's just like, yeah, so the Fishers used some of the tools that were availabed with them. They got together some law girls, I guess, and the law girls at the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Vietnamese Fishers Fishermen's Association filed a federal class action lawsuit against KKK organizing. They sued the KKK more broadly, but they also named the Grand Dragon of Texas, which is

the leader of the local KKK, is the dragon. And yeah, I think it goes like other people know the ship better than I do. But I think it's like wizard dragons cyclops is the kind of like hierarchy of leaders. You know, there's just like no through line there. What is the ilogies different magics? Like I don't get it. God, yeah, yeah, yeah, they didn't even know fucking mythology. No, not at all. They're all from very different like so bizarre and stupid

and makes it even dumber, it really does. I don't know. It's like kids that not kids like people that are like obsessed with dragons are much different than people like obsessed with Merlin or something, and people in totally different people obsessed with like I don't know Hercules mythology. Yeah no, yeah, Hercules and Merlin are not the same kid exactly. Yeah. Um speaking as a Merlin slash dragon kid, I like it was aware of Hercules, but it didn't spark joy.

Yeah whatever. Yeah, I was more the mythology kid into mythology. That's I'm kind of coming around. Yeah, I mean, we're all we should all just now us, we should all

come together. But the Ku Klux Clan didn't do it right, so they can so in the lawsuit, the they claimed that the KKK had violated their rights and we're basically committing racketeering by you know, they were essentially organized crime, and that they were trying to get a monopoly on the fishing in the area, which is true even if they're purpose behind it was racism or whatever, you know.

And the plaintiff class was all Vietnamese fishermen in the area, and the cases called Vietnamese Fishermen's Association versus Knights of the Ku Klux Klan one and in this they proved

one is not that long. I know, they proved in court that a local militia group, the Texas Emergency Reserve, was a was the military wing of the KKK, and they provided security at clan rallies and there was of these militiamen uh and it was shut down, yeah, by by this lawsuit, by the work of the Vietnamese Fishermen's Association, who won an injunction against the group activities that prevented the militia or the KKK from military training or parading

with firearms, which ended the militia for good, which is really funny to me. Sorry, wow, it's funny to me that the guys who are that going and be like, sorry, guys, burning crosses and threatening people with guns is illegal. Now, time to go home. Like that worked on them. Yeah, you know, like maybe I feel like it's I don't want to like have beat this cynical, but like it probably had a lot to do with like just the the type of judge they had and the people that

were decided stuff. You know, like it could have gone a much different way. So I think there's a bit of luck they're yeah, which is like I mean again and whatever, I guess it's been made clear my opinion about law, but like you know, different tactics like right, like because like going and fighting them too. Right, It's like sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't because it's

not like justice prevailed because it always does. Right. Instead, it's like we tried to fight them through this avenue and it worked, Yeah, which is great, Like sometimes the law does its actual job. And forty years later, the Vietnamese community is still there and the KKK is a shadow of its former fucking self. Hell yeah, a few more and just there's so many of them. I didn't get to know. I didn't know, Like this is the thing, Like I had no idea what these things happened, and

that the KKK was sucked over so much. I want to hear about the times the KKK was sucked up. In ninety six, the Lumbi people and Indigenous people and what's currently called North Carolina sucked up a clan gathering and sent sent them packing and stopped them from organizing in Robisson County, North Carolina. And I cover that story a different episode if people want to hear it. It's in the second half of the Civil War. Within the Civil War episode with prop and it's worth checking out.

It's a fucking awesome story the event itself, if you want to look into it on your own. It's called the Battle of Hayes pond Um and just rules and I'm not going to go into it the second time, but you'll should look into it then. To talk about modern resistance to the KKK, which I think I'm defining as I was alive during um, that's fair not modern three modern because the scene uh well not on this particular scene that would have been impressive with me. But

you're like somewhere out there. Yeah, the clan marched on Austin, Texas, about seventy of them humbers. Yeah, yeah, their numbers are not what they used to be. I mean good, I'm glad. Oh yeah. They faced two thousand counterprotesters, which were organized. I feel if you show up and only seven new people aren't they're just like not canceled. What do you think? How do you think this is gonna go? Guys? What

do you think it's gonna happen? Two thousand counter protesters organized by the local chapter of the Brown Berets, which is a militant pro Chicano organization in conjunction with the John Brown Anti Clan Committee, which is a group of mostly white anti imperialist activists, And this kind of in some way sets to the stage for how a lot of the modern clan confrontations go, which is small numbers of clans people are willing to show their face in public,

and then they hide behind cops by getting permits out and stuff. So the police protected the clan from protesters. A handful of cops and anti clan protesters were injured in the fighting as people are trying to get through the cops to get to the clan, and people went and fucked up clan vehicles. They marched again in Austin, Texas because I guess the tenure anniversary. They were like, Oh, we're gonna totally get at this time. Guys, We got it right. It went't even worse for them. About fifty

of them showed up. Wow, you just gotta cancel, Like what you show up and there's fifty of you, That's that's like a crowded public school classroom. Like yeah, I don't know, five thousand people pelted them with eggs and shouted them down and mooned them. And you know, I mentioned that in the twenties, some gangs made a truce to fight the clan. Yeah, I get to tell you another story about that. Almost a hundred years later. Who

is moderate. After the white supremacist terror attack on a black church in Charleston, South Carolina, the state was like, you know, maybe it's trying to take the Confederate flagdown

from our state House grounds. Um. And in case there was any doubt in anyone's mind that the Confederate flag is like some kind of neutral symbol these days, the group that got together to rally and defense of their Southern heritage and specifically the Confederate flag was the fucking KKK was it along with their allies the National Socialists? Oh my god? And of course they didn't frame it as this is a clan and Nazi rally, even though they were the groups that were like, no, no, no no,

we're the clan and where the Nazis. They were like, we're defending our southern heritage or whatever. They called for a rally to stop the flag from being taken down or whatever. And who stopped them but an informal coalition of local black groups, including what appeared to be a gang truce between the Bloods, the Crips and the Gangster Disciples supported in Charleston, South Carolina. Interesting, okay, supported by another smaller informal coalition of anti fascist and anarchists. This

is as observed by one participant. If you want to hear a full breakdown of that day, you can listen to the podcast The Final Straw Radio. Look for the title Anti KKK Rally Interview from and basically as a participant who is there as a as a an anarchist from from the South was there and and was observing on what they saw. Um, obviously that's the history I

want to know about. Yeah, no, totally. And like when you talk about things that are like real modern and our crimes, you have to like kind of be a little bit not super specific about things. So I guess, I mean we're finally I mean, I'm very young. Since is the first date you've mentioned that I've been alive for? Um, no, I'm kidding, but but no it is. I guess that was really recent, yea, being on podcast like this, I think, I like, time becomes like a made up thing, like

everything is like a temporal or something. It was not that long ago, yea. It was like I don't know. Especially COVID I think has made everything seemed really far away. But that was not long ago totally. It was, but in the before times, it's like if you're hanging out in like three A D like five b C is

like fucking yeah, way back. I have literally no idea when people came up with a d NBC but whatever, something about christ and so more like formal anti racist groups held a rally, which is fine and good, but the Klansmen were chased around town and beaten the ship by this other group that was unified more or less by one thing. It's good to drive the clan out of your town with violence. People partied in the streets

with their stolen Confederate flags. At one point a racist was like driving away and like away from a crowd and was trying to be like whatever, fuck you and then like you know, hit the gas to like speed off and then just drove right into a lamppost. Yeah, that's cosmic justice right there. And with that image, I think that's where we're gonna leave it today. There's so many more stories about it's a beautiful image to sign off. I really appreciate that. Yeah, sometimes I mean it's it's

it's okay not to be a cynic. You know. The world is like I want to fight back and give this little nut good of joy to you. Yeah, and sometimes they do that work for you by driving into a lamppost because they're so mad about your existence. Yeah, that's that's that's crazy to be so mad about just being so hateful that you just you you funk yourself up. I don't know, it's just very something funny about that. Um, but wow, thank you. Speaking of wow, Sharne, is there

anything you'd like to plug? Is that we're saying goodbye now we're saying I mean, unless you have closing thoughts. Yeah, I mean, I'm just really uh every I mean, I just learned so much on the show because I just I'm bad at learning things on my own these days. So I really appreciate all the knowledge because there is just so much history and stuff that doesn't get it's

deserved attention. So I appreciate the show for being like, you know what, it's not all bad because people have been fine since the dawn of time and that's the only reason that we're still around. I don't know, it's it's good to remember that because again, I can be really cynical, So feeling even like a figment of hope is it's pretty impressive for me. I mean, is that kind of one of the reasons that you're a fun guest is that you come in like very misanthropic and

it's kind of fun. Yeah. Well, because like just look at the current. It's hard to trust, you know, it's so so Yeah, I'm glad I learned all this stuff. And I'm glad that there are as many good dorks as there are dumb doors. You know. I'm glad, I'm I'm glad. I'm glad because yeah, it just gives me some hope for the dorks out there. Um, but yeah, thanks for having me with the image never mind sright, go ahead with the mirror image of patriot front. Be patriot,

but yeah, be the patriot behind the front. Yeah, the patriot but yeah for sure. Yeah yeah. Anyway, Yeah that was poetic. And you know what else is poetic? The book of poetry Sharon wrote that you can purchase you don't have to. I have to have a lot of embarrassment about everything I've ever done, and that one in particular, I don't know it doesn't matter. You can. You can just follow me around on the internet if you desire

bad No, I don't want to. My instagram is Shiro Hero and my six because you know six six through the horns, but it doesn't translate on an audio the price of your book like sixteen and sixty six. But no, I mean like poetry is a stretch. I just kind of like published my diary, which is really exposing sometimes, so I think that's what makes me nervous. But it's fun. Honesty is good, you guys. Honesty is good. I agree.

That's why I was like, I know that when I was telling you about the ghosts thing, and you were like, no, you're fucking with me, I'm like, no, I don't. I mean I only funk with people for very short grades of time immediately that would but that it could have gone either way, and a ghost thing, like are you kidding me? Like, I there's this thing I do, okay if I'm not If I'm talking to someone and for whatever reason, they don't hear me, they don't answer me.

It happens a lot with my family. I'll just stand there and be like, am I a ghost? And usually they don't respond. And I'm like, okay, I'm a ghost now, and so I just like continue my life as a ghost. So the ghost thing really threw me off. There's like a fascination where I have with Little Ghost Ease because in a different world that club is still around and it's like cute and beautiful and it's a pac Man Confederate Officers start with better. Yes, exactly. It's it's really

interesting to see how things evolves. So but yeah, this was fun to learn about for Mary. Do you have any plugs for us at the end? You mean, like December eight, which is the live show where I'm a guest on Alive behind the Bastards and you get to watch my face slowly turned to horror as I learned about something terrible. And then are people able to ask questions?

They are able to ask questions? Yeah, when you buy tickets, will be prompted to submit your question ahead of time, and you can buy tickets at moment House stock co slash bTB. Yeah, it's gonna be more fun than the tone of my voice is making it. I mean, this show is kind of like antithesis of BTV, just like in some ways, like the So it was basically designed to make it so that my life wasn't so sad. How's it, how's it working out? How's it working out

the best? Yeah? Anyways, we'll be back next week with another cool person or did something cool or a group of people or something something. Margaret the cool cool, Cool is cool because Margaret is cool and that's cool and bye bye cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.