Part One: Black Antifascists In the Spanish Civil War - podcast episode cover

Part One: Black Antifascists In the Spanish Civil War

Apr 14, 20251 hr 2 min
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Episode description

Jordan from The Dugout teaches Margaret about the long history of Black antifascism that brought people to fight in the Spanish Civil War.

James Yates, Mississippi to Madrid
Salaria Kea, “Doing Christ’s Duty”
Canute Frankson’s letter from Spain (1937)
“The Good Fight” (Documentary)
Peter N. Carroll, The Odyssey of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade
ALBA-Valb.org archives
Trussel.com, “The Peekskill Riots”
National Archives & Harlem Oral History Project
Kuykendall, Ronald A. "African Blood Brotherhood: Independent Marxism During the Harlem Renaissance." Western Journal of Black Studies 26 (Spring 2002): 
African Blood Brotherhood. The Principles of the African Blood Brotherhood. New York: African Blood Brotherhood, 
David Motadel, Islam and the European Empires (2014)

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcript

Speaker 1

Cool Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You're a weekly reminder that when there's bad things happening, there's good things happening too. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and this week is different. Well, every week's different. Every week is a completely different thing. That's the great thing about having this podcast is that it's different every week. But this week is even a different format because instead of me being the podcast expert, I'm gonna be the

podcast idiot. Because the podcast expert this week who's gonna explain some stuff to me is my friend Jordan from the Dugout, a Black anarchist podcast. Hi Jordan, Hello, how's your week? Everything's fine, right.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean it's been about the same. I think I've been on this earth around twenty three years and not honestly, not much has changed, you know, patriarch baby, But you know, other than that, we're still out here.

Speaker 1

Yeah. The other voice you're hearing is Sophie producer. Hi Sophie. He I'm Magpie. Hi Jordan, Sophie. I'm glad to have you back.

Speaker 2

Missed too.

Speaker 1

I think everyone else is too, And if they're not, they can stop listening right now. As a podcast for Sophie fans only. Don't, but don't because this is a really good topic that's true, very important. So what happened was I was like, there's this stuff I want to know about, and Jordan was like, I've been reading an awful lot about that stuff. And I was like, you should tell me that's that's what happened. But Jordan, who are you and what are you an expert that you're going to explain to me?

Speaker 2

Uh? Yeah, I'm Jordan. I am a archivist and queer organizer and a Midwest and yeah, I'm going to talk today about black anti fascists in the Spanish Civil War. This is something that I've been researching for honestly a couple of years loose sleeve, but I've been really trying to get the fire in my belly for it, and having this conversation with you is able to actually help my me and my ADHD brain sit down and actually finish a book, which I possibly finished too many books

for this. But the love of the game.

Speaker 1

Love of the game we were talking earlier about, like Jordan was like, how do you stop with each topic? And the answer is that time deadlines are the only reason I stop each stop.

Speaker 2

Why do you think there's always like an entire context episode.

Speaker 1

Yeah, but before we talk about all of that, we should talk about the fact that our audio engineer is named Rory. Hi. Rory Hi Ri.

Speaker 2

I've been waiting to do that for so long.

Speaker 1

I know. I'm excited that you get to and also, dear listener, you get to say hi Rory wherever you are. It's always fun to do that in public. And our theme music was written forced by own woman. Okay, so we're gonna talk about black anti fascists in the spanishivil War.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Absolutely, this is my takeover of cool people. I finally get to be the person who tells you who's cool. Yeah. I do a lot of researching a lot of black history, a lot of black anarchists or black liberation history, and in doing that, I have found that there's so much like bottom up approaches to fighting against oppressive institutions that don't get called anarchists throughout history, and I actually love it. It's part of what drives me to my politic in

and of itself. And in doing a lot of research for this episode, there's just a lot of like black resistance that is so bold, very beautiful and brilliant, and a lot of it gets erased, especially anti fascist history, because fascism as we know it right now wasn't really named until like nineteen twenty twentieth century. European fascism is kind of where we get some of our understandings.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's a europe problem, right, Like only Europe had fascism, and therefore that only affected other Europeans. I think Europe historically only affects Europe, isn't it.

Speaker 2

Yeah, they never left the continent. You know, every bloody, terrible war was totally absolutely insular, which was great for something we might call internal colonizing or I think there's this one phrase I love that's like before Europe colonized

the world, they had to colonize themselves. And I think it's a really then truer like exposing like oppressive, violent institutions and in exposing like fascism or like othering and having that sort of out group to define your terror on and build fear around to kind of not sometimes control a population, but more control what they think is possible and what they think is a reason for certain downturns in the economy or certain downturns in social life and right.

Speaker 1

So like they have to blame the other in order to build the authoritarian state inside.

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely, and that kind of displacement of fear and displacement of responsibility. Then to then put all of our problems onto typically like strong man authoritarian type leadership to be like, well, I will solve it. I will give you quick and easy solutions, quote unquote quick and easy solutions, which are typically just disappearances and the status quo governing

body going forward. And typically also like capitalists and the old power structures, it could be it will see in Spain feudal structures alongside capitalist structures that are vuying to continue, like their sort of control over the economy, people's labor, and the international relations. And in doing a lot of this black anarchist research, I found a lot of anti authoritarian and communist histories, many that have lived lives of

resistance without calling themselves. And something in my work is that like, I'm not here to label any of these ancestors, but drawing a lineage an anti authoritarian thought that reminds us how and why folks have fought and why they've fought in certain ways because anti fascism and fascism isn't something abstract or academic. It's intensely real for a lot

of folks. And that violence comes through the history and legacy of imperialism and colonialism of when Europe especially Europeans, were like, well, let's go down to the continent of Africa and take over norther theft or even just like this whole history even back through the romans of taking over in like colonizing other places, and eventually the through line of what we see now is like these large settler colony societies in which the whole purpose of it,

the whole foundation of their societies is based on the violence of erasure and displacement and stolen labor and forced labor. And to keep that sort of control going, one has to not recognize it as a fault. And that's where we are in America is we've never recognized any of our faults or any of our contradictions and our foundations.

Speaker 1

Right, so it's like we can end up fascist in part because we don't acknowledge the fact that we started. Let's go with real bad fascism is obviously like a unique political ideology, and we can't just apply it to everything in the past, but obviously, like the horror mess we're dealing with now with rise of fascism is obviously like and I was like talking to my friend about this the other day where I was like, well, it's like we're dealing with something really, really horrible right now, it's

still better than eighteen fifty in America. Like, even though what we have now we could call fascist, it you know, derives from the fascist ideology, don't.

Speaker 2

And the fascist that we used to coin the name like Hitler and Mussolini and Franco. These are people who quoted the US, quoted and cited Jim Crow laws in our use of gas chambers in their reasoning and using it as like well, if the US did it, and actually if you make people second class citizens, it's so much easier to actually just erase them and do a genocide that this is the model that then Germany tries

to use. And there's something that I talk about and I was like, it does look kind of nineteen thirties Germany and America, but it more looks like still eighteen nineties America. It looks like a post reconstruction America more than it does like we have like our Gilded Age or oligarchies, and we have the people. We feel like we're on the precipice of something and the ruling class is coming in very very hard to maintain its power structure, and they know how early they have to get on this.

This is the basis of like counterinsurgency work, as being so preemptive that you end up just creating a police state, which in America we've been kind of fine with that for the most part.

Speaker 1

Okay, when I derailed us, we'll talk about history part. Sorry about that.

Speaker 2

No, you're good. It's a good little conversation. But yeah, today I'm going to talk a lot about going into the lives of black anti fascists, especially from America, who volunteered to participate in the Spanish Civil War, and especially those who joined the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, those that came to see fascism as a threat to their lives, freedoms, how they got suspain, and what they experienced there, kind of what happened after the war, and including somehow some

of them went on to work to protect one of the greatest culture icons of the twentieth century, Paula Robinson, my opinion, love the man. But one thing to kind of talk about before is like, for me, this episode and other things is a context episode. I'm not really going to start getting into the war until the second episode.

Speaker 1

And for folks who haven't heard more about this before, we've done a fair number of pisodes on this, possibly too many episodes about it. But why not always talk about the Spanish Civil War because it's the war that started World War Two in a way, you know, it's

the mini war before it. This was the first showdown between fascist and you would say republican or leftist forces that happened in the World War II era from nineteen thirty six to nineteen thirty nine, and it started with Franco a fascist, a Catholic fascist, attempting a coup, and then that coup failed because people resisted it, and instead it turned into the Spanish Civil War. All of the other powers of the Western Powers, like sat aside while

the fascists basically Germany and Italy helped Franco win. And it was a long, bloody, drawn out fight and also one of the most fascinating periods and one of the most utopian periods in some ways that has ever happened with people experimenting with whole new ways of being, and so there's a reason everyone's obsessed with it. And if you want to know more about it, check out roughly a quarter of our episodes. And I'm sorry about that,

but this one's good. I've been wanting to hear more about this particular aspect of it for a long time.

Speaker 2

Yeah, this I think is a very beautiful time in history for anti authoritarians, especially now. But any folks that are organizing against fascism, against authoritarianism, against patriarchal violence, and are understanding their relationship to violence, their relationship to what different roles in organizing against authoritarian structures look like. I feel like this little time capsule in history lets folks know that there are ways to move through, even like

military discipline. Like there's a lot of really good essays and articles about how anarchists in the time period experimented with different levels of military discipline and what that meant for them and how that was up versus a lot of the machismo that comes with anti fascism in the day and age. And one thing I think is also very interesting about the time period is I think it was only the USSR in Mexico that were supporting the republic.

There are Republican sides at the time, and Mexico even allowed near the end of the war folks to repatriate to the area. So a lot of Spanish ANDCI fascists went to Mexico, and a lot of people in the Internationalist forces as well went to Mexico after the war.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and when we talk about internationalist forces again, for folks who were listening while the governments besides Mexico and USSR sat aside and didn't help the left in the Spanish Civil War, a lot of individuals from the United States, from France, from England, from other places Italy went to Spain and fought. And that's what we're going to be talking about.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I believe there were fifty two different nationalities and countries represented in the Internationalists brigades. And it really shows like people showed up the attack started happening. And I get into this a little bit more, but there were very interesting ways in which they used newspapers and media to call for people to come and support their struggle. But people came. But before there was Spain, there was Ethiopia.

There was the violence in Harlem in the Deep South, and it was a long battle for black dignity and survival. And this is about people who refuse to just wait for justice, people who saw anti fascism as not just a political stance, but a moral one, a spiritual one, and a very very personal one. Hell yeah, yeah. The

paths to Spain didn't start in nineteen thirty six. To me, it kind of starts with World War One and how we understand some of the concepts and how black veterans came home after this quote war to end all wars and were still met with extreme racism, poverty, vigilante terror. There was in nineteen nineteen the Red Summer, which was a blood soaked welcome that sparked something deeper into a lot of folks. So when you say the Red Summer

of nineteen nineteen, what's that about? Is that the like like the bombing of Black Wall Street and stuff like that, Like, what's the what's the red Summer? You know, I actually can't remember if the Tulsa thing happened in the Red Summer, but it was a bunch of white supremacists terror and race riots that happened, and dozens of cities across the

US and some rural counties as well. There was a lot of civil rights activists that coined the term, and they had organized a lot of peaceful protests against racial violence in that summer, and they were attacked by racial terror by folks who were in their communities and did not want to stand for that sort of racial equity. In that kind of talk, there was a lot of

white on black violence. There was a lot of race riots in Chicago, Washington, d c. And then it was kind of related to the demobilization of folks coming back from World War One and kind of the economic downturn that the US was kind of starting to ben and folks were still coming through too on and there was a lot of labor unrest happening in that time and a lot of labor organizing that, especially in America, still had a lot of racial undertones. So there was a

lot of folks that came back from the war. They came back, they tried to get different jobs. Some of them started organizing, but black folks weren't let into the unions, they weren't let on shop floors. There was organizing against that with the long shore Men's and in the IWW.

Speaker 1

When you're saying that, when you're saying organizing against that, you mean not organizing against black people joining, but rather organizing against the racism that was preventing black people from joining.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely cool. And this is sort of one of the motivators for what was called like the Great Migration, which has went around like half a million African Americans left the southern United States and started going north and west. And this is also a time like to recognize that like the South wasn't I don't know if it still is.

I don't think it is is a majority blo space, and especially was in the twentieth and eighteenth century, which is one reason when I look when fascist dictators, look at how the US appropriated violence against black citizen injury, a majority citizen injury to have a white rule, a white minority rule, it's very influential to the foundations of a lot of internal fascist violence or internal violence. Okay, but yeah, the black anti fascism is in my opinion

also it goes back to colonialism. It goes this black anti authoritarian urge, goes back to indigenous Africans being stolen, propertied, sold into slavery and their descendants and those who immigrated here fighting back against that colonial violence and against that repatiation is older than the country itself, with the first

slaver volts, maroon societies, insurrections happening since we landed here. Yeah, kind of one of the first things I want to give some examples of that is in the Palmarras area of Brazil and around sixteen oh four, a republic of mainly free Africans and indigenous societies made villages, war camps, formed republics to fight off Portugal armies for decades, raiding plantations, maintaining agriculture using the forests and like guerrilla tactics and

knowledge of the land to survive and grow and oper in like indirect opposition to colonial slavery.

Speaker 1

Yeah, they like literally had their own basically country going on, right.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Absolutely, it was like the name itself for the I think it's Colombos. Colombos it means like I think it means like war camp and village. And so they were like a bunch of federated war camps and villages that were there as both defensive outposts to like very purposely maintain the society outside of colonial violence, and also I would love to do more research into the race relations.

But they were very much against the sort of the sort of racial hierarchy and cast hierarchy that Portugal and the Dutch were trying to implement in that region, though they still at some points worked with the Dutch to fight off Portugal advancements. But that's what alliances are for. Yeah.

Speaker 1

No, it's like some of that stuff is so interesting because even some of the Maroon societies, like I don't know about specifically about the Columbos, but some of them even like had slavery within them, but they were still like they were They're just separate societies that were on I don't know, they're fascinating. I always want to know more about them, you know.

Speaker 2

I know that's one of those things I found right before, like a couple of days ago, and was like this,

I wanted to put more information on in here. And then those Palmara's societies lasted about ninety years, and even after that, there was the Haitian Revolution in the late eighteenth century that I think some people forget, like I think they had like over one hundred and forty revolts before they finally had a revolution, and that in and of itself, the consistent strikes and then the eventual overthrow struck the heart of enslavers across the Western hemisphere.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it'scared the shit out of them. It was so good.

Speaker 2

Yeah, they were terrified. They were terrified for so many reasons, and so many good reasons because it also they were scared of it inspiring folks in like the American South and and I believe also in around Brazil because it's one of the still like the second largest slave society outside of the US at the time, and it did it kept the flame of freedom strong and the heart

for rebels for generations to come. It is a struggle that I still really would love for people to study more of because it has so much, so much history and nuances and how things played out and how different

relationships were built through. But it inspired folks like Gabrielle Prosser, who was in enslaved literate blacksmiths from the plantations near Richmond, Virginia, and they organized a massive, massive slavery vault with one hundreds of enslaved folks and their goal was to seize control of Richmond and to take the governor hostage, negotiate the end of slavery, create a more egalitarian society, whole

nine yards. And they were very influenced, interestingly by American revolutionary libertarian language and equality, and they were like, well, why can't this be true? And one thing they wouldn't be inspired.

Speaker 1

By, Ah, you did it before I got to do it. This is a takeover. You took away that my only joy in life of now go ahead. What is inspired by these things? I don't know.

Speaker 2

Well, Gabriel was inspired by the American Revolution. And you know who else was inspired by the American Revolution? Probably our advertisers.

Speaker 1

That's right, all of them. Sorry, I just got really excited at the producer.

Speaker 2

Now. For the past two years, I'm trying to think of things to say to get that kind of reaction out of all if an effort. I am on the.

Speaker 1

Show, and you did it, Andrew back, I got to say, Andrew back.

Speaker 2

So there was also so many more rebellions that were directly influenced by the Haitian Revolution itself, like Denmark Vessi, after buying his freedom after winning a lottery he plotted one of the most sophisticated and well organized slaver vaults in the US history. In Charleston, South Carolina. He mobilized thousands of black people, including both enslaved and free, to seize weapons, kill slave holders, and burn Charleston to the

ground and set sale to Haiti for freedom. Deeply deeply religious, Vessi saw slavery as a sin against God, and Haiti's successful Black Revolutionaris heavily influenced this thinking, especially a lot of the voodoo that was going on at the time that it was like faith respects faith.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

The sad part about it though, is that some of the co conspirators I believe they got rained out on the day of their action, and two people snitched and told their slave masters, and Vessi and I believe at least over thirty other people were executed.

Speaker 1

You know what I think about this sometimes is one, it's really sad how many of these got shut down by snitches, right, But also how many more we never heard about because like, in some ways we hear about them almost because they got caught, you know. I mean, obviously if they've been super successful and burned down all of Charleston, we would have heard of it. But it's like so many people ploted these things and probably were even kind of punished, but in like a low key way.

Speaker 2

I don't know.

Speaker 1

It's just like the more I read about this history, the more I'm like, there's so many were never gonna learn about, and there's still so many that we can learn about, and they're all so fucking cool.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Yeah. That makes me think about like my whole history of like Roanoke, and it was a lost city, lost people when it was like, okay, actually folks just left the colony, like the historians now are just like okay, yeah, no, But then there's still so many different things that we

can just enjoy and learn from so deeply. Even more rebellions from black anti authoritarians is like Robert Smalls during the Civil War in like eighteen sixty two, hijacked a Confederate ship, the Planter, and disguised himself as the captain, picked up his family and other enslave folks along their way, and then surrendered the ship to Union forces. After the Civil War, Smalls built a small public education like he built and worked around public education, protecting black rights and

resisting the reimposition of white supremacy during Reconstruction. I believe he was elected to office at least five times during that like reconstruction period in which that was allowed in the early nineteenth century in America.

Speaker 1

He was fucking cool. We covered him a little bit on the Civil Civil War war, maybe like the second episode we ever did of.

Speaker 2

This show, Okay, because I knew I had heard that story before when I had found am And there was like even more organized efforts to fight against the sort of racialized violence that was happening in the States, with Marcus Garvey being a big inspiration for Pan Africanism, the Back to Africa movement and establishing the UNIA, the Universal

Negro Improvement Association. There was also this a little lesser known communist group called the African Blood Brotherhood founded by Cyril Briggs, a black journalist around lasted around nineteen nineteen to twenty twenty.

Speaker 1

Five, which is a sick name. I'm just gonna Zeril Briggs. No, No, well that too, but no, the Blood Brotherhood, what was it.

Speaker 2

Yeah, the African Blood Brotherhood. They were inspired by a lot of like traditional African Blood Brotherhood rituals that are kind of like a coming of age sort of thing. And then also they were heavily inspired by the Irish

Republican Brotherhood at the time. Cyral Briggs was a Black journalist and socialists from the Caribbean islands around like the Nevies, and they were like a semi secret, super hierarchical but semi secret radical organization promoting black self determination, armed self defense, anti racism, and anti capitalism. They were heavily inspired by the Russian Revolution that had just happened in nineteen seventeen and the failures of American democracy to deliver any sort

of racial justice. They advocated for self defense, organized self defense classes against racial violence, especially after that Red Summer of nineteen nineteen when a bunch of white mobs attacked Black communities and they urged for the overthrow of white supremacist capitalism, solidarity with revolutionary movements globally like they were really big into like early Black internationalism outside of just doing like a Pan African kind of scheme, and they

leaned a lot of their roots in media and published the Crusader Magazine. They can be quoted in their pamphlets saying in like their Principles of the African Blood Brotherhood that was published in the Crusader Magazine saying quote we must offend ourselves with arms in hand whenever the lynchers or mobs invade our homes or threatens our life, with their founders going on to continue saying, quote without arms, there can be no power. Without power, there can be

no freedom. The African Blood Brotherhood stands for the organized might of the Negro worker end quote, which Briggs wrote. Kind of he did a lot of like the editorial and writing for The Crusader, and was like the point person for it, which is why folks like tend to

look back on it as super hierarchical. But they were like an explicit workers association trying to organize unions for people that would be normally excluded, which for them was also people who were not considered white at the time, and trying to build that bridge the gap between class conscious white people and Irish folks and people who were like newly immigrated and black folks, especially during the one

of the Great migrations when folks were going north. So they advocated a lot of alliances with communist movements and with the Party itself eventually dissolving into the party.

Speaker 1

And I think one of the things that's so fascinating to me about this. I hadn't heard as much about this, and that's I'm really excited about it is that I think we get presented this idea that like Black American radical history and then like the labor movement and you know, sort of named ideological positions are just completely separate things, and it like ignores this incredible amount of overlap between

you know, leftism and black politics in America. I mean, obviously in the by the end of the twentieth century, we that's less seen as the case. But when people talk about the sort of early legacy of fighting against racism, I feel like the like class consciousness part of it is left out.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I've always loved telling people that Lucy Persons was a part of founding the IWW here in America. Like this has been something very integral to black autonomous politics and scenes for a really long time, and something we see a lot in Black communities is like this, some of the stuff for like the sense of safety is still kept insular. Your politics is kept insular. You will tell your family, your kid, like people at the cookout. We know what to talk about and how to talk

about it. But when it comes to being out in a very above ground organization. There's so many risks that come with that that, yeah, and also so many different variations. This is also how like after the nineteen sixties, they stopped killing black leaders because folks started keeping their really

radical politics insular. Again, can also shift to like the sort of black excellence that's like black without others, so like blackness but no solidarity, which still having some sort of principles there that don't really reach towards liberation in my humble opinion. And that's also something that the African Blood Brotherhood kind of had in their mode of organizing as well, because they had a big distaste for Garvy, especially at the time because he won. Actually I don't

know if they had the issue with his misogyny. I do, but they had an issue and I have an issue with this too, is because he I believe it was him that said Franco can't be a fascist. I coined the word fascism and quite literally worked with the KKK and would have meetings with people like legal Clerk of the Ku Klux Klan. Because it's kind of this mentality of all right, separate but equal, How do we really stay separate? What does that mean? How do you want

us over here, Fine, we want us over there. Y'all got to stay over there.

Speaker 1

Then, Yeah, nationalism is a thing.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's one hell of a drug. And the beef got so heated that Garvy and their meetings. Actually this instructed p to disrupt the African Blood Brotherhood meetings and activities. But then like by like the mid nineteen twenties, many of the African Blood Brotherhood were already members of the Communist Party. And I want to look more into this history, but it's kind of like seems like like the Central Committee inside of the Communist Party absorbed and it was

like y'all got to shut down. The ABB just become like an auxiliary council inside of us.

Speaker 1

Which there was a lot of that going on with the American Communist Party around that time. They tried to do it to a bunch of unions and stuff too. I'm sure they succeeded with some.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and then kind of to put a chef's kiss on the history of black resistance and oppressive institutions and

like the violent societies that they inhibit. I want to read Claude Mackay's poem If I Must Die, which has been reprinted an uncountable amount of times, and through doing this research, I have seen mentioned and cited like by almost every person that that I've read through, either whether they talk about Claude Mackay themselves as an anti fashion or antiasis writer, or people like James Yates and Salary a key that we'll talk about now or later on

adoring and using as a kind of mantra. So quote, if we must die, let it not be like dogs hunted and penned in an inglorious spot while round us bark the mad and hungry dogs making their mock at our accursed lot. If we must die, Oh, let us nobly die, so that our precious blood may not be shed in vain. Then even the monsters we defy shall

be constrained to honor us through dead. Oh, kensman, we must meet the common foe, though far outnumbered, let us show us brave and further thousand blows, deal one death blow. What though before us lies the open grave like men will face the murderous, cowardly pack, pressed to the wall, dying but fighting back. End quote.

Speaker 1

That's fucking metal, Yeah.

Speaker 2

It really really is. I'm like, Oh, I could put that through a little diy punk songe real quick yeah yeah, and many people, many of the people we will talk about in the future, know the levels of fascism and what resisting sort of violent colonial and racial violence and terror means. James Yeates, who I will be hooting heavily in this episode, describes kind of the conditions of Mississippi

during his upbringing. Quote. There was a mass lynching near the town of Shibudah where the highway and railroad across the Chickasaio River. Some parts of the incident were written up in northern newspapers. No one ever is charged with the crime, although the local members of the klu Klux Klan were well known. Five men and four women were hung their feet dangling just inches above the river's muddy waters.

Such was Mississippi in those times. The only thing a black man or woman had to do to get lynched was not move off the side work for miss Ann or mister Charlie. A black must never be caught drinking from a white only fountain, or making the mistake of using the front door instead of the back door. Stealing a chicken or a pig was very dangerous. Being caught at this could get you twenty years on the chain gang. If you were black in Mississippi, lightning would surely strike

home sooner or later. Here's an example of how it struck equipment. Around nineteen eighteen. My uncle Willy, while working in the sawmill one day, accidentally hit a white man with a piece of lumber he was carrying. He managed to make it home before being chased away from the mill. The news spread like wildfire all throughout town, passing word lynching tonight. I can remember Grandma Lizzie pacing the floor all throughout the afternoon. Aunt Bell, my uncle's wife, was

almost speechless. He would die fighting rather than be hung by the clusters. The only problem now was a supply of ammunition. That day, the town merchants had stopped selling shells to black folks. Living almost next door to my uncle Willy was a white family, the Linens, a husband, a wife, and three daughters. We call the man mister gus. He had an unusual way of speak, teaking English, I could only catch one or two words out of ten. Mister gus knew more about lumber than anybody in the

sawmill equipment. Still, he was an outcast, quote white trash to most white people. It was said he came from up north, but I still often heard him talk about Ireland, a place I had never heard about before. Mister Guss was a small in structure but big in heart. He'd heard the news about the klu klutz Klan was coming to lynch my uncle. That night, Uncle Willy heard a voice, Willie Willie. Mister Guss wanted to make sure my uncle wouldn't start shouting. Mister Guss asked, my uncle, what can

I do to help you? Uncle Willy told him about how the white merchants even refused to sell rabbit shot to blacks. Mister Gus walked away without even saying a word. He made his way to equipment and bought ammunition and then returned to my uncle's house with it. Here he said, defend yourself. And then he went back to town and told the whites, some of y'all are going to get killed by those niggers if you try to lynch that

Willie end quote. And this is like a kind of like really long part of the text that I pull a lot from James Yate's memoir Mississippi to Madrid, which I highly recommend folks check out. It's really beautiful and hits a lot of the points that I really wanted to hit in this piece.

Speaker 1

But okay, so this person who's quote this is from is one of the people who later went and fought in Spain. Yes, absolutely, yeah, fuck yeah, okay.

Speaker 2

And this is kind of his kind of understanding of like this is what racial terror and what living in Mississippi kind of was at the time. And to me, one of the big lessons around this is like, you never know who your neighbor may be, or those like those with conviction around you will let themselves be known. And the answer isn't always to react immediately, but always

to prepare as soon as possible. And one thing I read from this text was like one like the intricacies of race even in Mississippi itself, with like this obviously outcast Irish man being like what can I do to

help you? As well as like folks their relationship being base on the shop floor in the lumber yard, and how they're also your neighbor, and like these are the spaces of organizing against racial terror, against patriarchal violence that organizers all around the world do a lot of brilliant work in that I wanted to highlight as well that there's a lot of life saving work that happens just on your shop floor and in your neighborhood that we could be extending and organizing so that we are more

prepared for the levels of increasing violence that Americans face.

Speaker 1

No, that makes sense. It's like like just literally finding ways to make sure that well we have class solidarity with each other, you know, like realizing like, all right, we're all dealing with a bunch of different shit, but like at the end of the day, here we are on the like fucking shop floor. No that that's cool. Yeah, but you know what else is on the shop floor? I'm coming in before Jordan has a chance to do it. But now I'm messing it up because it's not the best transition I've ever done.

Speaker 2

I was gonna say, you know what's not on the shop floor? Solidaire Wait, solidari is actually I don't remember.

Speaker 1

I was gonna say, well, this usually adds on that because it listen to the radio while you're working and stuff. Maybe you're listening to this while working right now. And if so, well, even if you're not working, here's ads I don't know here they are.

Speaker 2

And we're back. You can stop it skipping unless you're a cool Zone Premium member or whatever that means. I don't know if that's still a thing.

Speaker 1

Cooler Zone Media, Cooler Zone Media, then you didn't have to listen to ads.

Speaker 2

Is that available and Android yet? Nope? Yeah, I'm gonna say I wouldn't know. I'm purely an Android user.

Speaker 1

Yeah, fair, I have no excuse. I'm on an iPhone and I still end them out. I don't even know. I haven't even signed up for it, and all I listened to is school Zone Media. That's why haven't I done it. It makes no sense I should do it anyway.

Speaker 2

Yeah, for the past five years, I think Cool Zone Medias have been in my top five podcasts every year.

Speaker 1

So yeah, we make good stuff, cool.

Speaker 2

Stuff even.

Speaker 1

We're all right.

Speaker 2

So in this time in America around like nineteen ten, nineteen twenties, even with the Great Migration happening and before then, especially during like James Yates' upbringing, it's important for me to remind folks that the South was a majority black and that the apartheid progressiveness of American liberty was in full force towards its black residence, with both secret and open organizing collectives for land, economic stability, and education forming

in many communities. It's where like a lot of where snit comes from, Like when we think about like a lot of revolutionary stuff that came out of like the sixties and thirties. Ella Baker like these anti authoritarian traditions as well, and that black anti fascist urge to drive for communal institutions in which participants were valued and relied upon was not just the tools that they used, but it was like the motives for how they viewed leadership and of itself.

Speaker 1

That makes sense to me, I haven't. I've read a lot about like black cooperative stuff and especially like, uh, there's a lot of like black cooperative farming that came out of the South and stuff that that that's cool, that tracks that, that's interesting to me.

Speaker 2

Yeah, Ellen Baker, who came up during this period and in this area down South, was very much a They were big on doing leadership training so that everybody could see leadership, call out terrible leadership and be able to take it upon themselves, to have the reins, to feel their own power to make decisions and have those decisions be valued, and to see bad decisions and authoritarian leadership

and cut that shit off. Hell yeah yeah, And so by around like the nineteen thirties, the Great Depression had deepened economic disparities. Black activists were organizing, and the beatings that they took for protesting unemployment, both in the South and the north, helped them see repression at home as part of a global authoritarian surge. Groups like the Unemployment Councils and the League of Struggle for Negro Rights began

tying local conditions to international fascism. The state's brutal crackdowns mirrored what was happening both at home and abroad. And then there was the invasion of Ethiopia by Mussolini in nineteen thirty five that really lit a fire under a lot of black activists and under a lot of internationalists as well. From about nineteen thirty five, the invasion of

Ethiopia began, ending in February of thirty six. There was still a lot more going on there, but italiand forces invaded with over two hundred thousand soldiers, utilizing tanks, firearms, aerial offenses including poison gas, mustard gas, and bombing civilian and military positions, both to deter resistance and also to just destroy and be able to use the land as

they needed. They were also, as they even claimed, practicing what they wanted to do, which is like this extension of this colonial imperial violence being the this for how they would do what we see now as colonialism.

Speaker 1

Oh okay, so we're going to go practice on these people who don't have any kind of munitions to fight us back as equals or whatever.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, And they also just like something we see now in Gaza as well, like international medical units were bombed, killed discriminately, even though there was no way to not know they were medical units, but they didn't really care. That was kind of their point. Yeah, because for many black folks at the time, Ethiopia represented hope, pride in resisting all sort of colonial advances. It's still kind of known as this place in the black community

as like Ethiopia was never colonized. It's like a really big phrasing. Whether that's what people consider true or not is a different thing in my head. But like there is a history and really long resistance because this is not the first time Italy had advances in the region at all, especially if you know about the history of Rome.

Speaker 1

Well, okay, so this is really fascinating to me because I hadn't. This means that those are like literally the first anti fascists, the first people fighting a war against fascism. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think Italy invaded anyone prior to that, right, I mean you have, you have anti fascists in terms of people fighting within Italy and within Germany. But the first like war against fascism is in Ethiopia.

Speaker 2

Then, uh yeah, like the by the fascists who want to name themselves absolutely, yeah.

Speaker 1

Shit, So like black folks are literally the original anti fascists.

Speaker 2

In this context, and that's cool. We do it good, we do it best. Well best we do it first. I don't know if we do it best.

Speaker 1

Oh whatever, yeah, you fuck it.

Speaker 2

But it was very much like Ethiopia, especially at the time, was seen as a place for European domination was not taking its rain on the afternitt continent, and with the rising authoritarianism after a bunch of tumultuous years of the First World War led a lot of world leaders and especially America into like their isolationalists kind of vibe at all.

So with the rising authoritarianism led for like these strong man type leadership narratives to be built by people who were already had access to material into things that moved the political scenes. So they relied on like rising nationalism and like the same collapse of economic conditions that social justice advocates and revolutionaries built communal campaigns of economic emancipation on.

Authoritarians then went around and built nationalism through alleged quick and easy solutions just founded in fears, enophobia and terror and violence through.

Speaker 1

Okay, so the same shit that nothing changes, that's what you're.

Speaker 2

Yeah, no, no, yeah no. And then they used technological advances that become very accessible at the period, like radio and film to kind of bolsterrough this imagery of strong leadership and of their imagination being worked through. And it's kind of like the saying that we're living in somebody else is dream. It's just our nightmare, so we should be able to build our dream reality right now as well.

And like somebody dreamed of this system that we're living in and they think it's hunky dory and it's actually not. But yeah, there were groups in different formations of communists, anarchists, and social reformers alike, that we're organizing to unite the working class away from capitalist based solutions and to look towards each other for even just figuring out new solutions.

Speaker 1

What are you talking about now, you just talk about globally or is this really.

Speaker 2

Oh yeah, kind of globally like around like the nineteen thirties and like with this rise of fascism. And I don't know who coined this phrase, but there's like this real idea that fascism is always writing the tales of a failed revolution.

Speaker 1

And yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2

I kind of. It gives that aesthetic of dealing with social and economic problems, and it can sell that aesthetic to you without selling you material conditions or actually changing

your material conditions. So as this invasion of Ethiopia uful, it was a clear escalation for folks in the States about the escalation in world authoritarian violence, and across the nation of the US, people erupted on protests signs reading hands Off Ethiopia, and the organizing to expose the links of anti colonial resistance abroad to the anti lynching campaigns at home became even stronger, and it all kind of became part of the same struggles there is Salary a key.

Who is someone else I'm going to talk about a lot more. Who's a black nurse and anti fascist that went over to go lend aid to the Spanish Republic. They were at this time still in the south end of that, I believe at this point they were in the Midwest, and they were helping raise funds for an entire seventy five bed hospital to be built in Ethiopia. And Yates goes on to describe some of the organizing that they saw in their book Mississipia Madrid as quote.

As Mussolini's massive attacks against Ethiopia continued, we focus all of our energy in to stop the fascists. We roamed the cities collecting food clothing to be sent to the victims of the bombs. In addition to passing out leaflands denouncing the war, we gathered signatures and sent them to President Roosevelt and treating him to stop Mussolini end quote.

So it really like this beginning of these like people recognizing the global fascist and authoritarian threat and doing like the on the ground at home grassroots organizing to talk to your neighbors about it. See if we can talk to any of our politicians who have way more sway when it comes to other world leaders, unless well, I'm not gonna get into that. And then there were street demonstrations and riots over the invasion in most large cities.

There was like a minority of black folks looting a lot of Italian shops at the time, Like there's a lot of horizontal racial violence happening. Well horizontal weird to say for me, but yeah, groups ended up organizing and putting out statements that Italians themselves did not agree with Mussolini, which to a lot of folks that went over to fight, which they were about ninety black anti fascists from America

that went over to go fight. It became even clear to them with how many Italian soldiers ended up joining the internationalists brigades in the Spanish Civil War.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's a kind of a good moment to be like, oh, yeah, right, there's internationalists and anti fascists in every fucking place. Is like all going over there together, that's beautiful.

Speaker 2

Yeah, And as most people listening now may know, protesting and urging your state to change foreign policy decision on an ongoing war that the state has already deemed its response to it's very hard, tiring, and a lot of

the times some consider fruitless, but it's not. There are many, many things to do, and this is a constant in US history that leads every generation of protesters to advance their tactics and develop and reimagine what goals they have, to reconsider what is a winning campaign, and for folks

in the early twentieth century, especially black people. Yeates talks about what it feels like or what it felt like to decide to start getting engaged, and a lot of that came when Republican Spain itself started to come under

attack after the invasion of Ethiopia. And read the decision that James Yates in their affinity group with were just like they were living with a bunch of artists in New York at this time, or maybe it was Chicago, just being around, organizing scenes, going to rallies, train hopping, just doing the thing.

Speaker 1

Yeah, same shit, yeah, uh huh, he said.

Speaker 2

Quote. The loft had become a very gloomy place. Then one day Hermann rushed in with an armful of groceries and newspapers. He held five different papers in his hands and all of them read in effect Republican Spain under attack. The headlines screamed out at us and the fascist collaboration in Spain seemed to jump off the pages. One paper

boldly announced Mussolini pledges the support of his troops. The article concluded by saying that Spanish Republican government, democratically elected, was asking the entire worlds for volunteers to come to Spain and aid in his fight against Mussolini, Hitler and the fascist generals. Hermann shouted at no one in particular. Now you see what did I tell you? I've been saying for three years that Hitler would move. First he tightened his Nazi grip on Germany, and then he'd look

around the rest of Europe. Such a maniac cannot be appeased. I've said it over and over. But who will listen? Alonzo didn't look up. He stared silently at his paper, and then he said, in his typical quiet manner, I'm going. I'm volunteering. The time for talking is over. You've got to put your convictions where your mouth is. I was silent with the question pressed upon me, Am I ready to go to Spain with Alonzo? I had been more than ready to go to Ethiopia, but that was different. Ethiopia,

a black nation was part of me. I was just beginning to learn about the reality of Spain and Europe, but I knew what was at stake. There was the poor, the peasants, the workers, and the unions. The socialists and the communists together had won an election against the big landowners, the monarchy, and the right wingers in the military. It was the kind of victory that would have brought black people to the top levels of government if such an

election had been won in the US. The new government in Spain was dividing its wealth with the peasants, Unions were organizing in each factory, and social services were being introduced. Spain was the perfect example of the world I dreamed of.

Speaker 1

And that's fucking cool. I was just gonna like that moment. I don't know, I know, I know that most of my response to the script so far as that's fucking cool, but like that moment of like, no, we just got to do it, yeah, and being like oh shit, yeah, you're right, this is the same struggle in a different place, Like, I don't know, it's cool.

Speaker 2

Yeah, And I think it's a lot of to me. Something in the beauty of this that I see is it's kind of also some of the beauty I see in snick the oh what is their actual name?

Speaker 1

Student Onnviolent Coordinating Committee?

Speaker 2

Yeah, Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. And with Martin Luther King Junior, my coast and I print Secure talk a lot, especially during the election, around like what voting means to us and what especially as black anarchists, and what voting that's respected by the state means. And there's these beautiful speeches of Martin Luther King very early on, being like, we will have our black judges, our black cops, our black

lawmakers will be at everywhere. If they just give us the vote, we won't need to even hear from the white oppressors anymore. And I know, damn well, even as a black anarchist, if I had heard that one hundred years ago, I'd be in the back like, yeah, let's

get our thing on. And because it's one of those fundamental human urges that folks see something being denied them, something granted access to others, and they're like, well, why not us, And the imagination of being able to think, oh well, if we were able to, especially post reconstruction actually have a black republic outside of that that was like based on the majority and based on how things were going, they would be the government of the South would be a lot blacker than it is now and

has ever been post reconstruction.

Speaker 1

I think about this constantly. As soon as I learned about how terribly you know, the Ku Klux Klan came in and was like, we're going to fuck this up through random, non legal violence. But then instead they just came in with Jim Crow and were like, actually, we're gonna put this down legally, and like, yeah, how completely fundamentally different the United States would be without Jim Crow.

It wouldn't just be like, oh, we had reached a quality sooner or whatever, but like just literally it would be a different country, and a almost certainly substantially more interesting and good one.

Speaker 2

Yeah, like extremely interesting. And that's something that even now urges. There's efforts for like the Republic of New Africa, which is like the combination of like the Deep South states into being formed of public and even through to the Black Panther parties kind of held this this political line that I still love, which is we still haven't got to decide whether we wanted to be US citizens or not, and we should have a referendum on that because I mean.

Speaker 1

Yeah, like all right, we got we get to choose, and we're going to try and choose. Yeah, no, it's interesting.

Speaker 2

Yeah, And with that conviction, they had decided they were going to travel to Spain. And that is a kind of conversation that happened with a lot of folks, with some folks lying to their family about where they were going. And one thing before in this off like to talk about how isolationless the US was at this point and how they very much I think, as you said earlier, they were like, we're not picking a side, which usually

means neutrality usually means you're never fully neutral. Like they stopped people from getting passports to go over to Spain to go and try to actually participate. So a lot of folks had to go directly to France and cross the Pyrenees mountain range, and like all these different ways. It was not a straight shot for anyone to go straight to Spain unless you were already over there. There's like a combination of boat, train and hiking through these mountain ranges.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, the whole like isolation has just mean deciding with the oppressor, like the US, France and England, we're like, oh, we're staying out of it. And by that, I mean we're putting an embargo on arms for either side to Spain, whereas like Germany and Italy like sweet, we're gonna send

fucking munitions to the fascists. That's great, you know, and leaving you know, the overwhelming majority of international munitions came in through the USSR, which of course has its own mess because then they were like and now we're in charge of everything.

Speaker 2

Yes, absolutely, And I think there's there's a lot of stuff written about, like the Communist Party and how the USSR engaged in the SPANISHI War, which is not something I get too into in these next couple episodes, but it is a very interesting way to see international relations be played out, and how the USSR took that mantle up when it came to other revolutionary causes, something even Sha Gavera had issues with.

Speaker 1

Oh shit, I need to one day, I'll read more about that whole thing. That's the infinite onion of history.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Fun fact Shay went and fought in the Democratic Republic of Congo after he yelled at the USSR for having terrible revolutionary politics with other international brigades, and went over there to go try to help them before he went over to more South and Central America. Yeah, yeah, it's very very interesting, And yeah, travel wasn't a straight shot. It was a combination of boat train and hiking through

treacherous mountains. James Yates describes one of like the last moments of their climb as quote, Within minutes of beginning the second lap of the climb, we tossed away most of our possessions. Men threw away their knapsacks, coats, blankets, anything to lighten the load. They even took off their socks and flung them into the darkness. I kept my shoes, but threw away most everything else. When it came to my books, I tried to fit them into my pockets,

but they felt like pieces of lead. I fingered them regretfully, then pulled too out, letting them drop. They flittered down through the blackness. It was a part of me falling. Later I found the books I still had was the

one by Lynston Hughes end quote. And then when arriving I really love how Yates describes their first contact after these like the Pyrenees mountain range is like they went up one mountain, then down another steep, steep mountain, and then up another steep, steep mountain, and then down another steep, steep mountain, and then the second lap was up Another's like it was a lot of up and down And it's to me one of those convictions because a lot

of folks died just getting to Spain and specifically on that mountain range, and it kind of to me colors some of the approach of this is something that I didn't really mention it, but like Yates talk about, like it didn't really hit James what they were really going to do until they were on the boat to France and they were like, crap, I might die. Yeah, And I think that's also something that really shows how little society back then, even kind of now we have an

issue with it. But talked about war, the trauma of war, what it means to like engage in violent acts, but then also what it means to take those violent acts that are being disposed onto you and do something to dismantle the system that is making that systemic.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

But yeah, and then the kind of through lines that in also highly recommended like folks read this Mississippi to Madrid because they bring so many beautiful comparisons between Spanish culture and Black American culture that kind of struck me, which I guess I'll just end some of this off by saying another quote from James Yates book is quote around five in the morning, we arrived at our first

Spanish outposts, a monastery. It was midway down the mountain and served as a way station for those who have been forced to take this route into Spain. No monks were there. A few Spanish loyalists guarded the posts, receiving and dispatching volunteers. It struck me that this monastery was much like the places used by abolitionists who temporarily house slaves escaping the plantations of the South in America.

Speaker 1

That's cool, I mean, sorry, I keep fucking saying that, But like this idea of the through line that they don't see this as a separate thing, and I don't know, sometimes it's interesting.

Speaker 2

Yeah, And this was only the beginning of their journey, and one that was mirrored by many anti fascists and black anti fascists alike that had to go through these long, long tracks. Yeah, and there's even more to come, and I hopefully I'm going to tell you even more about the specific anti fascists that came through next episode.

Speaker 1

Hell yeah, I am impressed that you managed in true cool people who did cool stuff style. One half of the podcast is to get you to where the thing happens. That's what we do.

Speaker 2

Yup.

Speaker 1

I'm making fun of myself when I say this, but it's like, it makes so much sense with this because it's like, yeah, the whole point is that this connection between these two struggles is so often ignored and so showing the connection directly, Fuck yeah, I'm excited to find out what happens.

Speaker 2

Yeah, And there's so much more history for folks to delve into in context of anti racist and anti oppressive organizing that drove fifty two different nationalities to come to Spain and fight some fascists and yeah, yeah, I think it's a really beautiful context for folks to look into, or like point of history for folks to look into.

I think there's a lot of really dopeap like organizing, especially like black autonomous and cooperative organizing that happened post reconstruction that is rarely rarely talked about.

Speaker 1

Well, we're gonna hear more about what happened in Spain with it on Wednesday. But in the meantime, what if people are like, wow, I sure liked hearing Jordan talk about a thing. If only there was another podcast where I could hear Jordan talking about a thing. What could they do?

Speaker 2

Well? They could hop over to anywhere that they listen to podcasts and look up The Dugout, a Black Anarchist Podcast, or you can go to our Instagram at Dugout Podcast and check out the link in our bio to get us on Spotify or any of those major platforms. Because sometimes it's still a little hard to reach out to us because we did a podcast called The Dugout in America, so it's very baseball heavy things. It's kind of hard to find our show.

Speaker 1

Whenever you're listening to this podcast, just go over listen to The Dugout, a Black Anarchist podcast, or just start getting into baseball. That's another thing you could do if you want, sofa, are you into baseball? Basketball? I know you're into basketball, but I was wondering if you're multi sport us. I don't dislike baseball, but it's not a passion. Okay, fair enough.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I only ever played in the outfield and my parents would always gett mad at me because I just did like gymnastics in the outfield and was never there when the ball was coming my way.

Speaker 1

Exactly, exactly, all right, We will see you all on Wednesday.

Speaker 2

They Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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