Fried Chicken, Our One-Minute Cooking Tip, An Interview With Susan Jung, Suze, Smoked Salmon & More!

Hey, I'm Bruce Weinstein and this is the Podcast Cooking with Bruce and Mark.

And I'm Mark Scarborough. And together with Bruce, we have written three dozen cookbooks at eight New York publishers. How is that even possible? We're good since new, since 1999. Unbelievable. And we have a new book coming out this fall of 2023. They'll look and cook Air Fryer Bible. If you listen to this podcast, you know all about it. 125. Easy recipes for the air fryer with 704 photographs.

When you talk about fried chicken, you gotta talk about, oh my god, the best, the better. And even the better, better, best. Because even bad fried chicken is good fried chicken.

No, no it's not. You didn't grow up in the south. No, it is not.

Oh. Is there anything better than fried chicken?

No. See, here's my thing. Bruce grew up in New York in a half kosher home, and I grew up in the south and see,

wait, what? Half of my home was kosher? Half that. Eight bacon grand. Your father's parents. Oh yeah. That wasn't my home. But fa hash over fam. Half kosher family,

half kosher family. And your aunt. Still is kosher. Yes, she is. Anytime you say bacon, Bruce like hits the ceiling and goes crazy. Oh my god. Bacon. I grew up in the south, so it's like, uh, bacon. Yeah. Uh, I don't have to go nuts. It's just bacon. Like, don't you have that every day of your life? So I think he's got the same thing about fried chicken. How fried chicken? I, we

had fried chicken. Look, I think

there are bad fried chicken out there.

We never ate KFC. But there was a,

I can tell you this, southerner never, I have never. Ever eaten kfc.

When I was a kid, there was a place near our house that May, it was called Chicken Delight. Okay. And if you're listening and you grew up in Queens and you knew about Chicken Delight, you can join me in my exaltation of chicken delight on our Facebook group cooking. And Bruce and Mark, they would deep fry this chicken without. Any batter without anything on, they would like throw the chicken in the deep fryer and it was just golden and delicious.

We, oh yeah. I grew up in Dallas, as you probably know if you've listened to the podcast. And we went to a place called Young Bloods, and it was a place that just served fried chicken in my head. Head. It was all you can eat. It was a sitdown restaurant, wasn't it? Fast food.

How many toilets did they have in that place? If it's all you can eat fried chicken,

what I re mostly remember is we would go there after church on Sundays and the line to get into young Buds. This tells you how old I is am because if you are from Dallas or around there and you know what young Buds is, you know exactly how old I am. The line to get in was forever. I remember we would stand in that line in the. Summer heat for forever. That restaurant, I don't food at all. It, it's not worth it. Listen, great fried chicken is great fried chicken.

When you make really good fried chicken, you want to have a little bit of a wet. Coating on it, like people do it in buttermilk or even barbecue sauce. But to do it in the air fryer, you can't put a wet coating in there. It'll blow off with the hot air blowing. So I don't think,

I don't think we knew that until we started writing a million air fryer books. Yeah. That wet coatings, they either, the fan is so strong in the air fryer, they either blow off or they get wagley. Mm-hmm. And uneven. And then those waves that it makes are. Raw underneath the big waves and then dried out in the middle.

So what you do is you take the chicken out of the buttermilk or whatever liquid you had it in, and then you toss it in flour. Yeah. Now here's the trick though. You can't just put that right in the air fryer because that blowing hot air will dry out that flour. It'll stay white, it'll be disgusting. You have to still give it some fat, so then you have to still spray it. With oil, whether it's aerosol, non-stick spray, or a pump spray, and you have to let the flour soak up with oil, right?

Now, let me say that I grew up eating fried chicken every Sunday, not just at Young Buzz, but in the, when I stayed with my grandparents, they were still making fried chicken my grandmother, every Sunday after church, and I stayed with them. A long time. Every summer.

And my, she wouldn't go to the store and buy her chicken though, would she?

Well, no, when I was really young, no, those were slaughtered chickens. Uh, but the, what she would do, my grandmother, is that she pan fried chicken, which means she would put pans on the stove, and I'm talking like three skillets, four skillets. She would add. Crisco. It was Crisco into the skills, but only about an inch deep of it when it was melted.

It's also shallow frying rights. It's called?

Yeah. Shallow pan frying. And then she would put all the chicken in a giant paper supermarket bag. And trust me, we're feeding like 13, 15 people here. She would put all the chicken in a giant paper supermarket bag. She would add flour, salt, pepper, m paprika, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, and then pick it. Up out of the flower and make it go into the pan. So there was no wet batter involved. She didn't use a wet. Interesting. And she didn't marinate. Mm-hmm. Ever.

And to, well she just killed those chickens. You don't need to. That was fresh and juicy and delicious.

My recollection, a little bit bloody there. My recollection is that that is the finest fried chicken ever. And I would do this thing as a kid. It would, the platter would go down in the middle of the table and everybody would grab a piece, you know, when it was hot and all this kind of stuff. And, I would take a leg.

So there you go. Why does that sort of sound like Woody Allen?

I'm not living under a rollercoaster and the, the, the cyclone is not going over my bedroom, so it's not quite woody.

Okay. So your grandmother didn't brine it, but no, a lot of people brine their chicken cuz it keeps it juicier and it's actually pretty salty. That's why I love kosher chickens. Cuz they're pre-B Brian. Yeah. And they're very salty. So if you want to brine your chicken, it doesn't just have to be a salt solution.

Right. It could be. Any marinade, any salty solution, but not just salt and water.

Well, sometimes salt and water is all you need, and basically it's one and a half tablespoons of salt to every cup of liquid, whether that's water or apple juice, or even if you're using buttermilk, put a tablespoon and a half of salt in the buttermilk and let it sit. That will help brine it a little bit and make it even juicier.

There's an osmosis reaction that goes on here, but let me say that if you're using kosher chickens for any reason, Or your chicken says, injected with a solution on the label. Do not do this salting trick because this, the chicken will end up Yeah, way too salty. Modern chickens, processed chickens in supermarkets are often. Injected with a solution, which means that they're essentially injected with saline. So just be careful. But Bruce is right, even if you use just barbecue sauce mm-hmm.

Another interesting addition to that marinade or that brine, is to put ounce or two a vodka because

we all know we, we actually got this idea from.

Kenji Lopez Alt.

That was his, that was his trick, right? I couldn't think. Yes. Kenji Lopez, this is his trick, and it's actually kind of genius

because when you boil alcohol, well, alcohol boils at a lower temperature than water, right? So the alcohol in that marinade is going to Boil off before the water in that marinade

burst off

almost like Tempura. So what it does is it creates more air bubbles in the skin and in the, the batter and make it crispier. So a little alcohol gives you bubblier crispier skin. So if

he, so just to clarify this, if he were, let's say, soaking his chicken insulted buttermilk mm-hmm. He would then add an ounce of vodka.

Of vodka to every cup of the buttermilk. Interesting.

Mm-hmm. And then, and, and then that way that vodka kind of blows off in the hot oil. It creates crispier bubbles. And let me also say, if you know anything about frying chicken, the oil, you need, uh, thermometer to determine its temperature. You do not want that oil to drop low. Mm-hmm. And by low, I mean below three 20 Fahrenheit, you just don't want it down there. You want it up at 340 350 360 right along.

Follow the recipe, whatever the recipe tells you, use it. But later on I'm interviewing someone who's an expert fried chicken, and she gives me some tips about the oil and the heat.

Okay, great. All right, so we'll save that then about the oil until we get to her. Before we get to the next segment of this podcast, let me say, as I always do that we have a newsletter. It comes out about two times a month. About that. You can sign up by going to our website, Bruce and mark.com, or that is m a r k or cooking with Bruce and mark.com. I, as I always say, will tell you that I have locked it so I can't see your email. You can unsubscribe at any moment.

Unless you weigh your ingredients when you're making cookie dough, your dough is never gonna be the same way twice. Right? Right. Because when you scoop a flour right, you're never gonna get the same amount of flour in that scoop. Exactly the same amount, right? Unless you weigh it. So let's say you don't wanna weigh it, you're one of these people say, no, I'm not gonna weigh it. So you never know what your dough's gonna do when it gets into the oven, right?

Interesting. There's all kinds of theories out there on the internet about. Butter and temperatures of butter and flour and sugar and what makes a better cookie. But this is all in case you're not weighing, which is basically our US listeners in case you're not weighing and you're working.

So the other tip is weigh by volume. The other tip is weigh, but if you're not gonna weigh, then cook one cookie first.

I'm, I'm gonna extend this one minute cooking tip too long, but let me just say that we were in discussions with our publisher for a brand new book, and one of the things I'm most excited about, In that new book, is that all the recipes, it has nothing to do with air frying and nothing to do with instant possible. If not, wow. Amazing. I know.

Today, I'm so excited. I'm speaking with Susan Jung. She was the food and drinks editor for the South China Morning Post for almost 25 years. She is now the food columnist at Vogue China. We're speaking with her in Hong Kong. She has a new book out called Kung Pow and Beyond Fried Chicken Recipes from East and Southeast Asia. Welcome, Susan.

Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.

Fried chicken in the US usually means one of two things. Buttermilk marinated, bone in pieces, flour coating, shallow fried. Or it's fast food, deep fried white meat, chicken fingers, but fried chicken looks very different throughout Eastern and southeastern Asia, doesn't it?

It's very different and we use so many different ingredients and, and they can be used in so many different ways and so many different combinations. There's. Certain ingredients that are similar to different cultures like fish sauces used in Vietnam, in Thailand, in certain parts of China, but the way that they use fish sauce in each country makes it taste uniquely Thai or Vietnamese or Chinese. So it's. To me, it's a very in interesting area of the world to be covering.

What's your personal relationship with fried chicken like? Are there any family favorite ways to make it?

Well, it's actually the first dish that I learned to make because my mother made really good fried chicken that my brothers and I just called mom's chicken wings. So I've loved fried chicken since I was young and when I moved away, you know, to go to. University. I called my mother and I said, how do I make these dishes? You know, certain dishes like steamed fish and you know, cooked vegetables or tiny style vegetables, and also this fried chicken that she used to make and that we loved so much.

Tell me about your mom's fried chicken that, that captured your palate so much.

I kept asking her, where did you find this recipe? You know, it's, it's very unusual, and she said she cannot remember where she got it. So, unlike most of the recipes in my book, the. Chicken is not double fried.

You talk about an important technique upfront that goes from most of the recipes In your book, you say Overheat your oil. Now that's sounds scary to most people. Why do you recommend that?

So if you heat the oil to 160 degrees and you add the chicken, it drops to hundred 40 degrees. And it takes some time to go up to 160. Mm-hmm. But if you overheat the oil to 180 degrees, when you add the chicken, the temperature will of the oil will drop to 160. So you're frying at the correct temperature. It's not overheating it to the point where it bursts into flames. Where, where it's the, the flashpoint it.

most chicken fried in the south in the us. It's made with Crisco melted solid vegetable shortening. Is that ever used, um, throughout Asia or what are the oils that chicken are fried in, uh, in, in your book and throughout east and southeast Asia?

I, I said in the book, I think that to use whatever is convenient to your country, so in Hong Kong it might be peanut oil or it might be corn oil. You need any type of oil that will is a neutral tasting oil that. Isn't too expensive because you're using a fair amount of it and then, uh, which has a high enough smoke point so that you're not burning the oil. So therefore, I wouldn't recommend using sesame oil because the unique flavor of the sesame oil would be obliterated when you heat it.

Hey, Susan, what's the difference between frying chicken and oil and oil? Blanching chicken. And when would you use that technique?

Chinese cuisine has a unique. Cooking technique called oil blanching. It's where you marinate the chicken, which is usually cut into small pieces, but not necessarily, and you dip it in the oil for just a very briefly, maybe 30 seconds to one minute, and it isn't enough time to fully cook the chicken, but it gives it a really smooth texture, which has led to another name for it. It's called velvet the chicken. Then it's cooked with other ingredients. To flavor it.

You say in your book, That wings are your favorite part of the chicken and you suggest a really interesting technique when you're using only that middle section of the wing. You know the part with two bones? Mm-hmm. You split them in half the length wise, I've never seen that done. Where did you learn this technique and why do you like it so much?

I actually saw this done at this. Restaurant in Bangkok called Greyhound, and I thought, what a great technique because it's so much easier to eat. Mm-hmm. I dunno if Greyhound came up with that idea or if it's been done before, but that's where I first saw it. And I like it because when it's the, the middle joint and you have to deal with the meat in between the two bones, which is, you know, can be quite difficult. So if you just cut it in half, you just have one.

I love that you are honest enough to start your chapter on boneless chicken breasts by saying you dreaded writing this chapter. Can you talk about that?

Well, I think a lot of people in in East and Southeast Asia prefer. Dark meat chicken just because it has a lot more flavor. But a lot of people in the US prefer white meat, chicken. And I remember going to a restaurant where you get half a chicken for a certain amount of money, and if you want only white meat, it's an extra $2. And I said, well, if I want only dark meat, can you take off $2? And I said, no. And I thought that was really unfair.

Hey, the recipes in your book run the gamut from relatively simple to the super complicated Nome guy, and I am determined to conquer this recipe. Tell me about the dish.

Most of my recipes that you said are very easy, but this dish for me is a very important dish because my mother told me about it when I was young, and she's described it and she said it's a banquet dish. She's only eaten a few times. And she said, when you have your Chinese wedding banquet, I will order it for you. And I never had a Chinese wedding banquet, so I was determined to make it myself. So I started making it maybe 10 years ago.

I am determined to make that so you have eaten fried chicken in more places than I can imagine. Aside. From your mom's fried chicken, which has such a special place in your heart, can you pick one or two fried chicken dishes that just stick with you as like some of the best you've had? I really

like Taiwanese Night Market chicken. I'm actually very proud of that dish because it was the first time that I made white meat chicken that was not dry. It uses white meat because that's how they do it in Taiwan. In the Taiwan night markets. The Taiwanese version usually is a chicken breast that's been pounded, and so it's. It's a huge breast. It's like, you know, if you watch YouTube videos, everybody on YouTube says, oh, it's bigger than my face.

from oil blanched chicken that gets. Stir fried into dozens of ways to the crispiest most delicious wings, to that amazing boneless stuffed whole chicken. Your book is full of fantastic recipes. Susan Jung, the food columnist at Vogue, China. Uh, her new book, Kung Pow and Beyond Fried Chicken, recipes from East and South East Asia. Susan, thank you for spending some time with me and speaking about your book.

Thank you so much. It was fun.

It's so interesting that you would name about Kung Pow and yet be about so much more than Kung p I guess that's the beyond part. Part.

Yes. The Beyond part. It's all about fried chicken. She has so many delicious fried chicken recipes in there. She's always been dedicated to make perfect recipes in her columns, and as she said, the fried chicken was always like her most popular column, so she decided. If she's visited a country that had fried chicken, she was gonna put that recipe in her book.

Interesting. Yeah, I, it is so fascinating. Back in the day when Bruce and I were much younger and, you know, we were, uh, much younger baby gays and trying to stay very. Then we refused to order and we lived in Manhattan and we refused to order in Chinese food. That was deep fried.

I refused. You wanted it? I did. The first time Mark moved into the apartment, he came up to New York. He said, oh, let's order in general Sal's chicken from the Chinese place. And I was like, Hey, it was just deep fried gristle. No did. We're gonna get white meat, chicken stir-fried only.

No white meat, only stir fry only. And we would say that. But listen, hey, it. Kept the weight off. So you know, it is a thing now.

It's a deep fried gristle.

It is a thing. Okay. Before we get to the final segment of this episode of the podcast, cooking with Bruce and Mark, let me say, it would be great if you could rate this podcast or drop a comment. Thank you so much for that. It really helps with the algorithms. You can go down to the bottom of the Apple page or the uh, Spotify page. I think that's actually the top, the Google podcast, if you're listening on. Audiobooks or Amazon, you can find rating systems there.

Fish Wife. Tinned smoked salmon with fly by Jing Chili Crisp. Okay. Packed in the tin. Oh, you gotta go

back. Okay. Explain the word Fish

Wife. Fish Wife is the company that makes it. There you go. So the Fish Wife brand tinned smoked salmon with chili Crisp made by fly by Jing, which is another brand, and a combined forces to put fly by Jing Chili crisp into the smoke salmon tins. Oh my goodness. This stuff is delicious.

We have become a FTOs of tinned seafood, and I grew up on, of course, the crummy sardines from the grocery store that were tinned. I love them. Oh, oh. It was a thing with me. I loved. Um, now don't judge me. I loved Wonder Bread and Mayonnaise and 10 sardines.

Oh, at least put cream cheese on that

Wonder Bread. And I am a Christian Wonder Bread and mayonnaise and 10 sardines. I loved it as a kid. Um, but we became, uh, enamored with Tin Fish years ago. You probably heard this, if you listen the podcast through a restaurant in

Boston, right? Hail dot Henry, and they're a wine bar and they specialize in tin fish and they import them, and you can go there.

They, they specialize in Portuguese and Spanish wines.

You go there and you get a half. Bottle of wine or a bottle of wine or a glass of wine and they will bring you on a slate platter, some open tins with the fish in it, a fork and a bag of potato chips.

And let me say that the tins they have are crazy. I mean, there are some up over a hundred dollars a tin. Let me say that. Across the world, tined fish is considered a delicacy. It is.

And these. These fish wife tins of smoked sandwich liters aren't cheap. They're about $15 of 10. Yeah. Which is expensive, but I just ordered a bunch because they're so good.

Yeah. But I just, I, I just can always freak out at three digit prices on tens digit. What's making you happy? What's making me happy in food this week is a drink that I love, and you may not know this drink. It's called Suz and Tonic. And let me explain this. Suz is a very, Old French liquor. I think it's actually Province Sal, but it's a very old French liquor, neon green, yellow.

It's like, yes, yellow, and it's, it's bright. You're pour it and it looks like it's flu. You know what it looks like? It just hit me. It looks like radiator. Coolant? No. Looks like antifreeze.

Okay. Anyway, it's an herbal distillate. It's delicious. Suzy's, but it is strong. It's gentian. Bruce says It smells like you mowed your lawn and drank the clippings. So it's very grassy. It's gentian and, but I mix it with lemon tonic, with fever trees, lemon tonic, and it is so refreshing. You put about, oh, I'd say the ratio is about what? One soothes three to one. Three tonics. I Three ones too. Yeah. Yeah. One sus to three tonics, and it is so summer. So refreshing, so interesting.

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