>> Charlie: Hello and welcome back to the Cook Eat Run podcast with X Miles. I am so excited about today's episode because I feel like it's a topic I get loads of questions about online, especially when I share any food that I'm eating. So I'm excited to get down to business with dietitian Nicola Ludlam Rain to talk about ultra processed foods. So Nicola's better known to me anyway, and those who followed her online for a while as NYX nutrition.
>> Charlie: I followed her blog and Instagram for. >> Charlie: Probably ten years and I'm so thrilled that her debut book is out next week on the 18 July how not to eat ultra processed foods. Her book is a four week plan to help you reduce the amount of ultra
processed foods in your diet. But today's episode takes it back a little bit, outlining what ultra processed foods, are, why we should be limiting them in our diet, and crucially, what to do as runners that often rely on ultra processed foods to fuel our, miles for pre post and on the run fuel. Spoiler alert, Nick doesn't suggest that we stop using sports nutrition products, thankfully. Otherwise it would be a bit awkward for a podcast sponsored by XMiles, a sports
nutrition specialist. You can save 10% off site wide this month with code cookeatrunjuly ten. So it's the ideal time to stock up on electrolytes to ensure you're hydrated for your summer runs. >> Charlie: So, Nick, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited to talk about something that's really a hot topic at the moment, which is ultra processed foods. You've got a book are, all around the subject coming out soon, which we will
go into a little bit later. But first, can you just explain what ultra processed foods actually are? >> Speaker C: Yeah, so the word ultra processed foods, it seems to have been in vogue in the last year or so, but actually it was first coined around the 2009 mark in Brazil. And basically, ultra processed foods are foods that have been heavily modified, made in factories, and contain ingredients that you wouldn't usually find in a home kitchen. So basically, like a
classic example is a packet of skittles. You cannot create them at home, they have to be industrially produced. So that's what in essence, UPfs are. However, some healthy foods also fall into the category. So it was designed as a population like tool, was the nova, which is where ultra processed foods, the definition has come from. It was never designed to be like, that food is healthy, that food is unhealthy.
>> Charlie: So why is it that we or the media has jumped on this bandwagon and said, ultra processed foods are awful. We need to avoid them. >> Speaker C: It's because studies are coming out that shows that, people who have diets that are high in ultra processed food, say, 80% or more, have poorer health outcomes. So whether that be weight gain, type two diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, even mortality.
However, when you look at these, like, systematic reviews and meta analyses, the studies tend to be of poor quality. In general, there are some good quality, and, sometimes they haven't taken into account maybe a person's bmi, or do they smoke their socioeconomic status. So I do believe that there is problems with diets that are really high in UPF, but we can put a blanket ban on upfsitive. and as with all foods, it's the portion size and the frequency in which we eat them that matters the most.
>> Charlie: Okay, so we've kind of said ultra processed foods, upFs, are processed in a factory. I mean, I think that when I think of food, I think of a lot of like, our food has been processed in a factory at some point, whether it's just the packaging or creating the food product, things like granola and things that we typically think of as quote unquote healthy. Are, there some that you can give advice on? Like,
these are ones you should be. These are ultra processed foods that you should be limiting and enjoying in kind of moderation. And some that you're like, actually, this is still fine. It does need a certain amount of processing to get from wherever it was grown or reared or whatever to your table. >> Speaker C: Exactly. So I would say like 90 odd percent of the foods that we eat are processed, quote unquote, in some way. So, whether that be washing, drying, freezing, even at home, we do
processing. But then ultra processing takes it that one step further. And it requires these additives to preserve shelf life, to make it look good, to make it tastier. Three months down the line. Now, upfs, come on. Spectrum. And this is why I was so passionate about writing the book. Because not all ups, like all foods, are created equal. So you've got ups on one side of the
spectrum. the typical kind of like, your soul foods, often referred to as junk foods, like McDonald's foods, chocolate, bars, sweets, ben and Jerry's ice cream. You know, all these foods that taste delicious and they nourish us. maybe from a mental health, psychological point of view, for out celebrating with friends. However, they don't do that much for us physically in the long run. Especially if we have too much of them. But then on the other side of the UPS spectrum, you've got
healthier. So basically higher nutrient value foods such as hummus, oat, milk, weetabix, whole mill bread, that can definitely feature within a healthy, balanced diet on a daily basis, but technically are classed as ups because of
the ingredients. Now, there is research emerging and I can always link, sending the link to a paper that shows that foods, for example, that are high in whole grain, even though they might have a UPF, tagline to them, they are not associated with those poorer health outcomes because of the benefits that they provide. They're high in fibre, the high in B vitamins. So actually, I don't believe. And you can't bundle all upfs into the same
category. yes. So there is problems with the research and, you know, the clickbait headlines that we're reading. >> Charlie: Yeah, I think it can be quite scary for people, especially, like, you've got kids, I'm trying to work out, what am I feeling, Bertie? And often it is like convenience and needing something that is going to be stable in a nappy bag, that I can then be like, here you go. Like you're hungry. Out on the go. so when we're choosing, like, what would you give advice in
terms of, like, when we're choosing the foods? Because sometimes, let's be honest, we need the convenience. How would you suggest people kind of make that decision? Or what. What information can we give to people to help make informed decisions when it's kind of like, this is the ultra processed food that we want to kind of avoid and this one is fine, like everyday consumption, like you said.
>> Speaker C: Yeah, and it's a great question. And I'm, you know, a busy working mom with two little kids, like age two and five, and we do have things like. Like frozen fish fingers and baked beans and, although some supermarkets do sell non upf versions of them, I do not have the time to go around all these individual supermarkets selecting it. However, what I would say is that, let's say you've got a food item that you consume on a daily basis and you would like to reduce your intake of
additives associated with ups. Ask yourself, is there an alternative? And, like, one of the easiest switches that we often do, not always, but is, for example, bread. So, like Jason's sourdough, even the own brand, sourdough bread, tend to be like, emulsify free. There's nothing wrong with emulsifiers, but if you're just trying to cut down on your additive consumption, trying to increase whole
foods, that might be a good starting point. And then taking it a step further, what quite a few of my family members have done, because they eat bread every single day, so making one little change has a big impact on the diet. They've actually got themselves a bread maker, which they actually say over the course of, I think it's like a year or two is going to save them money. It doesn't require much
time. And, they've now got really creative making different flavoured breads, adding, you know, olives and sun dried tomatoes and things like that. So that's one way that we can reduce ups. But ultimately, as a dietitian, I always focus on what should
people be doing more of? And if you are focusing on whole foods, reaching five a day, having more whole grains, two parts of fish a week, one of which is oily, all these guidelines, which we've been spouting for, like, decades now, your consumption of ups will naturally decline. So I always say the 80 20 rule, if you're living your life, you know, 80% whole foods and nourishing foods, you can
have 20% of what you fancy. and interestingly, I would bundle those more nutritious upF foods that I mentioned, the hummus, oat, milk, even like, weetabix, into my 80%. Because let's take weetabix, for example. The non UPF version of weetabix would be shredded wheat, but shredded wheat isn't fortified. So I choose to give my kids weetabix because it's got added iron. It's plant based iron. But, yeah, so
there are lots of nuances depending on what food. And that's why you can't just say, don't eat upfs. >> Charlie: It's so, like, you and I have degrees in this, and I sometimes find myself in the supermarket being like, what is the best option to give for me and also for my son? And I'm like, if this is taking me this long, to make this decision, like, it's so overwhelming that no wonder there's so much kind of confusion and misinformation.
>> Speaker C: When I first started writing the book, I had to do some serious talking to other dietitians and reflecting, thinking, like, what does this information mean and how best is the information to be translated? And that's like, I've got 15 years of experience doing this. So, yeah, you're
not alone. And, like, I think a classic example, when I really started looking at food labels and ingredients lists, is I went on the train and I ordered a sandwich, and this sandwich, the ingredients list, there might have been about hundred ingredients in this one sandwich if I had made the sandwich at home, which I probably would do if I was going on a train regularly, but I don't. So once in a blue moon is fine. It might have
had less than ten ingredients in total. So that's just like, one great example of how, you know, it depends on how often you do something, you know, what do you need to change your book? >> Charlie: How not to eat ultra processed foods is a 30 day plan to help people make small changes to their diets. And out at the end of July, we'll make sure to link it so that people can buy it. And can you tell us a little bit more about the book, the
recipes, the advice kind of included? Obviously, don't give away all of your secrets. We want people to get the book, but just a little summary. >> Speaker C: Yeah, so the book so. Well, it's 60,000 words, so I'm not going to give away all of it. But it's kind of in two parts. And the first part is kind of like the reasons why we should be eating more whole foods and fewer ups. And I talk a lot about the psychology of eating as well. So, like, understanding the different
types of hunger. And I think that this is really important because we know, you know, that if you give someone a diet plan, nine times out of ten, like, it might sound like a good idea, but it doesn't work out because you need the backstory and you need the why. And what the book does is it gives people the tools to make informed choices and decisions. And what I do is I walk you through week by week. Week one, we look at drinks and snacks.
We then look at breakfast, lunch, evening meal, and then there's an optional week five for desserts. So often when people are wanting to make changes to their diet, it can be really overwhelming. They've got all this information and misinformation, and they don't know where to start. So I always say, start with a food diary. Be
your own diet detective. Write down what you're eating, and, most importantly, why, for example, are you having a packet of biscuits at 03:00 p.m. because your lunch was a tomato soup, there was no protein, there was no whole grains. So actually, it's not about taking away that packet of biscuits. It's about
adding in nutrients at lunch. And then you might just have a couple of biscuits at, mid afternoon, or maybe none at all, because you haven't had that craving hit because you're satisfied from lunch. So that's like the premise of the book. And I've included, I think there's over like 20 recipes and I like over 100 different meal and snack ideas that are easy to do. and especially if you're busy. There's a premise
that I encourage people to cook once, eat twice. So there's lots of different tricks and things, practical ideas and ways that you can modify your environment to make the healthy choice. The easy choice, like opening the fridge, other crudites and healthy dips. Is there a fruit bowl on the side? Where is your biscuit tin? Is it next to the kettle? Or is it in an inconvenient location, like a cupboard? >> Charlie: I love that. Yeah. And I've definitely been guilty and being like, why am I
starving? And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I had soup and, nothing for lunch. And like 304:00. Mine is like starving. Bit of boredom, you know, like kind of wanting to get to the end of the workday habit, other people's choices. So, yeah, I can't wait to read the book. So this podcast is aimed primarily at, runners, at, cyclists, at endurance athletes, many of whom rely on sports nutrition to fuel their long runs, their training, their races.
Do we count sports nutrition products as upfs, as ultra processed foods? >> Speaker C: That's a big question. I mean, so there's lots of different products that fall under that term, everything from whey protein to sports drinks and sports gels. And I had a little Google before we were speaking at, the actual ingredients in these
products. And, so I'm sorry to say that, yeah, most of these products would be classed as ups because there's things like maltodextrin, there's a lot of ingredients that you wouldn't have in a home kitchen. However, there is a caveat. These health complications, for example, like type two diabetes and high blood pressure, are arising from people basing their diets on,
ultra processed foods. And the problem with ultra processed foods in general is that they encourage the overconsumption of calories because they're very easy to eat and they're very moreish, you know, because they taste good. And secondly, they displace other nutrients because if you've got a diet that's really high in UPF, then you're not eating the whole foods. However, runners and
athletes are a completely different kettle of fish. They in general will have a healthy, balanced diet based on whole foods with sufficient carbohydrates and protein to fuel their training. And then these products are an add on to support your training. And let's say you're having an energy gel partway through a run, that glucose is going to be metabolised almost instantly. You don't need the presence of insulin to absorb that glucose because your muscle cells are, contracting and
are absorbing it from the blood. So you're not going to get a prolonged sugar spike, which can cause problems to do. The eyes and kidneys and such like. So it's a completely different kettle of fish. >> Charlie: I'm really glad you said that because I personally know that I feel better and perform better on gels that are designed specifically for me to be taking mid run rather than a banana or something that's going to be higher in fibre or higher in fat
or just take longer to digest. So, yeah, that's, that's really good to hear. And, what about our, pre run and our post run fuel? So I personally really like Rice Krispies squares as a pre run. When I'm doing a really early morning run, I don't have time to make a whole breakfast and I don't have time to sit, eat it and digest it. I choose a Rice Krispies square, which is definitely ultra processed. but should I be making that change or is it okay because I am doing it maybe twice a
week? There's a reason I'm having that Rice Krispies square to fuel my run and then I'm coming back and having like, eggs on toast or something. >> Speaker C: Exactly. So first of all, the frequency, so you're maybe doing that twice a week. And second of all, you're having it a certain time before a run. So as that glucose is being broken down, your muscle cells are literally mopping it up. And also there is goodness and adverted commas in all foods. So that Rice Krispies
Square has probably got some added nutrients in there as well. And then you're following it up with whole foods. And let's say if we said, right, we're going to swap that rice Krispies Square for a banana and nut butter, that banana and nut butter could actually sit quite heavy on your stomach and then cause you to feel sluggish and then you're not going to get a great workout in and it might affect you psychologically. you and I both know that health
is more than just what we eat. It's how we're feeling, it's how we're working out how we're feeling from a mental health point of view, as well as socialising and stress management. So it's all of these things together. So I think it's doing what is right for you. But
keeping in mind, what does your diet look throughout the week? So if, say, you were following it up with another rice Krispie bar, we could say, well, maybe afterwards, you know, we could think of, you know, more adding in some whole grains and protein, which you are doing naturally. but let's say it was, it might be the flip side. Someone's having a fairly wholesome lunch and then a couple of hours later they're going on a run and
actually they have to get back to work really quickly. So maybe in that scenario, maybe a protein shake is the best thing because we rather them have a protein shake than leave it four or 5 hours before their next meal. Because there's that window of opportunity. It's not 30 minutes, but within 2 hours after a workout, you really want to be getting in some carbohydrate and protein. So I would say either before or after getting those whole
foods. But then the other side of, you know, if it's a high GI food, then it doesn't really matter because it's for a purpose. >> Charlie: Okay. So we're kind of looking at as a, as a whole week rather than necessarily each day. Like, how often you having them. What's the purpose for having them? Is it just because you haven't eaten a good enough, you know, a fulfilling enough lunch that you're reaching for this ultra
processed food? Or is it that it actually, because it digests so quickly, because you get the glucose spike that's perfect for your run? Yeah, that reassures me. >> Speaker C: Yeah. A food diary would give you that information and reassurance. >> Charlie: Yeah. My cupboard is literally full of rice krispies squares. I feel like the local, supermarket think I'm completely mad, but, yeah, it's the only thing that sits really well for
me. in terms of. So for marathons, we car blowed and that's like the three days before the race. And thinking about what I used to carb load, quite a lot of it is going to have been ultra processed. I used rice krispies, I used sports nutrition drinks. I had random crackers from Trader Joe's. I had Gatorade. I had, I did try and have some whole foods. So I had like coconut water and orange juice. Like fresh orange juice, bagels, pancakes. So I mean, a real mixture. >> Charlie: The.
>> Charlie: We probably do that. most people are running a marathon less often than twice a year. Three times. I mean, maybe some people are running more often than that. But is that okay for us to be using those when it is over a longer period of time? So it is over that three day period, but still serves a purpose?
>> Speaker C: That's a really good question. And I would say, I mean, I would almost like write down all of the different carb options which you're going to be getting in and, just have a look to see if there is a balance because as well as, the carbohydrates, you want to be asking yourself, like, what other nutrients do I want to get in? Like, do I want to get in some b vitamins? Do I want to make sure I'm getting
in some protein as well? and within the whole foods, for example, pasta is not an ultra processed food, it's just wheat and a bit of water. You've got a couple of questions there. is it white pasta or is it wholemeal? You might choose white pasta when you're carb loading because it's got less fibre in. So you're going to be able to get more of it inside of you. And the same, for example, with rice, you might go for white basmati or even white long
grain as opposed to whole grain. So there's always, I always say, make informed decisions based on your lifestyle and scenario. So I would say, ideally, yeah, go for whole foods, but if you need to get in those ups, then it's fine. And, I think I gave an example recently on social media. You mentioned some crackers. I love these Ritz crackers. And I had a look at the ingredients and they totally were ups. I would say just serve
them alongside some whole foods. So why not have some crudite, some carrot sticks and cucumber and hummus alongside to make it into a little bit more of a nourishing snack. So you still got your carbohydrate, but then you've also got some nourishing foods in there as well. But really, you know, three days or six days out of a year is not going to have a
massive impact. So yeah, I would say, yeah, keep in mind balance, but also in context of, the whole year and it's not that many days, I think, with. >> Charlie: The studies and I'm sure you've found this, but often it's looking at sedentary people, people that you don't take into consideration or they don't necessarily take into consideration the rest of the lifestyle choices these
people are making. and so actually, if you are healthy, exercising, eating whole foods the majority of the time, choosing these kind of the ultra processed foods, as you say, like kind of having some in the 80% that are like the healthy ones and then having some in the 20% actually makes you. Gives you balance. Because I think we can become obsessed, especially as athletes, with what we're putting in our body and it can become an unhealthy obsession.
>> Speaker C: Exactly. I was actually just before you said that, I was going to say, I feel like the whole conversation around ups is creating a lot of unnecessary health anxiety. It's almost like worrying the worried. Well, even more if you've got athletes who are out there running, I could guarantee that they're not going to have an excessive amount of alcohol in their system, they're not going to be
smoking. the stress management should be pretty good because they'll be outside and running, so they shouldn't have to worry about the amount of upfront. something that does spring to mind, actually, especially when you're like carb loading for a marathon and we're talking about fibre intake is just for runners, especially to keep an eye on their bowels. And if you are, for example, training for a marathon, why not carb load for three days, as a practise, and
see how your body responds? Because it would be horrendous if, for example, you were like, do you know what? Healthy eating is going to go out the window. I'm going to have a load of UPF carbs, a load of white cubs, and then you get constipated and like, on the marathon day, you know, your bowels haven't opened, so that's something to keep in mind as well. >> Charlie: Yeah, definitely. Like, the pre race poo is essential. I feel like runners talk about these
kind of things way more than the average person. But your line of work, you talk about them. I'm sure it's just as much as I do. But, on that note, thank you so much. Where can people find you if they've got more questions? Want to learn more about the book? And I know you share a lot of really good, helpful, evidence based nutritional information, so where can people find that? >> Speaker C: Thank you. So I usually hang out over on Instagram.
I'm ixnutrition nicsnutrition. And, yeah, the book, how not to eat ultra processed is out very soon. 18 July. Available from Amazon and all good bookshops. But yes, spoiler alert, it's not about never eating upfs again. >> Charlie: Thank you so much. I will link all of that below. and yeah, I'm, so glad to hear that we can keep in our hummus and our rice Krispies squares and m most importantly, our sports nutrition. >> Speaker C: Cool. Thank you so much for having me, Charlie.
>> Charlie: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Cook Eat Run podcast. Really appreciate any feedback, any reviews you can leave wherever you listen to your podcasts. Don't forget you can use code cookeatrunJuly 10th for 10% off site wide at ex miles and they've actually got a really cool new nutrition calculator to take the stress out of calculating your endurance fueling strategies.
You can create a personalised nutrition plan tailored to your sport, distance, predicted time, and then build your nutrition list by adding products to match the plan. So it'll give you targets like pre run carbs, on the run carbs, post run carbs, protein, etcetera and you just drag and drop. Or you kind of search for the products that you know you like. Or you can have a look and search through their list of products and it will give you some suggestions. So definitely give that a go.
Give it a try. Use code cookeatrunjuly ten to save on your list. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Please don't forget to subscribe and like leave a rating and review. Share the episode if you enjoyed it. Thanks so much to Nicola for coming on and chatting with me and so much luck with her book. You can can get it at all good bookshops from the 18th of, July. It's called how not to eat ultra processed food. So definitely give that a look up and
see how you get on. Let me know what you think.