Why Great Leadership Will Make You Question Everything

Hello, welcome back to Conversations with Stephen Kamugasa. This is the first episode in our 2025 Leadership Series. Today's guest is Ms. Sally Percy, an experienced business journalist and editor who specializes in writing about leadership and management. Sally is the author of three books, The Disruptors, 21st Century Business Icons, and reached the top in finance. She has also edited several business magazines, including Edge, the official journal of the Institute of Leadership in

the UK. Sally has a degree in modern history from the University of Oxford. In this episode, we discuss the topic, why great leadership will make you question everything. Ms. Sally Percy, Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Your book, 21st Century Business Icons, is both powerful and timely. Local and international businesses frequently have more clout and influence than any other social, political or economic body in today's tightly knit

global society. Investment in global communication networks and technology will only strengthen the global connectivity of individuals, financial markets, and organizations as the 21st century plays itself out before our own eyes. This reality raises several questions, some of which we will attempt to address in this episode, such as what functions should business have in the 21st century? Are businesses the only economic actors? What obligations come along with businesses increasing might

and sway? Is the only goal in business to increase wealth? Or are there also noble and social goals that need to be taken into account? But first, Sally, can you please tell us something about your childhood? And how did your childhood experience color your appreciation of business leadership as an adult? to be able to write a powerful book such as this.

Oh, well, thank you. That's a really interesting question. And I've actually never been asked about my childhood before. But one of the things I would say is, obviously, you mentioned that I have a degree in history from the University of Oxford. And I was really quite young when I decided that I wanted to go to Oxford. When I set my sights on going, I was actually only about 10 at the time,

which I think was quite a young age. And I was really, all through my teenage years, this was my ambition and this is what I really focused on. And I really enjoyed studying history at school. And that was my favorite subject when I was a teenager. And obviously, I then went on to study at university. And I think the thing about history is you're actually studying, well, you study lots of different things in history, but it's a lot about people. It's a lot about leadership.

UK history is about kings and queens in there and prime ministers and things like that. So I think that kind of love of history and reading stories and learning about influential people, people who made a difference in the world, I think that, and actually, you know, some of those people kind of shaped the world that we actually now live in today, although we don't necessarily think of it in that

way. So I think, I think those kind of experiences really, as a teenager and as a young student of Oxford, I think, If I think about them now, I think they probably did perhaps contribute to me sort of going on to write a book about leadership, because I really like diving into people's pasts and seeing what motivates them. And you'll know from reading the book is basically sort of a mini potted history of all these different people and what we

can learn from them. So I think there's kind of really quite a strong correlation there with my history studies. On page 269 of your book, 21st century business icons. You draw the following conclusion, and I quote, the major question that naturally arises at the end of this book is surely the following. What do the 21st century business icons profiled here have in common with each other? Is there such a thing as a single

blueprint for success? Now, I know we are starting at the back end of the book, But I have a question that I'm sure our listeners would like to know, and it is as follows. How would you define a leader in business? And is there a single blueprint one can point to and say, that's what a business leader looks like?

Yes, a couple of very interesting questions there. I would define a leader pretty much probably in any context, not just in business, as someone who directly or indirectly influences other people. So obviously, you know, someone who directly influences people might be their line manager, someone who indirectly influences people might be, you know, someone you follow on social media, and they bought a product and recommend it, and you think that's great.

So it's about directly or indirectly influencing other people, and it's about influencing what they think and what they do, And it's also about motivating them to behave in a certain way and achieve certain goals. So motivation is a really important aspect of being a leader, to be a good leader. You've got to be able to motivate others. In terms of, is there a single blueprint to what a leader looks like? I mean, you would probably guess, for me, the answer to that, I would

say no, there is no single blueprint. You can be a introvert, you can be an extrovert, you can you know, come from any kind of background really, you can have any sort of specialist technical knowledge. What I would say though is that there are some common threads that you see, and I've picked up in my book, that they do have a lot of attributes in common, sort of hard work, self-discipline, a strong sense of purpose, a long-term perspective.

great vision. Something else that also comes very very strongly linking to what I said about motivating people is a willingness to empower other people and build strong teams. Something else that comes through is a willingness to listen and to take advice. Also, a willingness to fail and a willingness to take risks. I mean, in terms of my book, most of the leaders that I profile are entrepreneurs. And therefore, by definition, they're leaders of their business because they started and

grew them. But I do feature a couple of leaders who are not entrepreneurs. Turning back to page seven of your book, entitled Leadership icons of today, you write, and I quote, in this section, you will read about some outstanding men and women drawn from different markets around the world, who each bring their own unique perspective to the practice of leadership. Sally, please talk us through how you went about selecting the leaders you write about. What was your key criteria?

Well, the two principal criteria that I had to begin with is I wanted them to still be alive. So that ruled out Steve Jobs, for example. And I wanted people who had changed the world in some way. So if you try to imagine our world today without that person in there, what would it look like? And, you know, kind of, so I really was looking for people who

had changed the world. And so I suppose, you know, an obvious example here would be, you know, trying to imagine the world without Facebook, for example, you know, it's quite hard, you know, so many people on Facebook, but if you're not really anymore, we Facebook's really kind of been a pioneer in the social media space, and has led on to other things. And obviously, Facebook now own WhatsApp, and Instagram. So of Meta, the parent company. So, you know, it was quite, you know, Facebook

really did change the world. Amazon, you know, I mean, I order things on Amazon virtually every week, really. So, to now, to try and imagine a world without Amazon in it, I mean, that would be, for me personally, quite inconvenient. And then you look at, you know, you look at a world without Elon Musk in it, I mean, regardless you know, your personal views on him, you know, he's really had a very

big impact on the world. So when I was kind of looking for people, I really was looking for people who changed the world in some way. After that, I was really looking for diversity of genders and nationalities and sectors, just to make sure that the stories were sufficiently varied and interesting, because if every single case study was about a man in the tech sector in the US, that

would get a bit dull after a while. Something else that was also really important was this was a book on leadership, so I was really looking for people who had good advice on leadership and who had shared their tips and their philosophies on leadership, either because they'd written a book or they'd been interviewed or they might have written blogs and articles, you know. I wanted to be able to really unpick how they thought of themselves as a leader and what kind of philosophies

they had, so that was really important. I needed to be able to see what they thought of as their leadership style. So those are the different kinds of things I was looking for. You write on page 12 of your book the following, and I quote, she said that GM must embrace a culture where safety and quality come first and code for the company's employees to raise concerns quickly and forcefully. In doing

so, she effectively ushered in an era of massive culture change for General Motors, moving it away from a culture that was associated with cutting costs and ignoring problems to one that prized accountability, collaboration, and honesty, while prioritizing customers and their safety. Now, Peter Drucker, the management consultant, educator, and author, is famous for having come up with the phrase,

Culture eats strategy for breakfast. Given Mary Barra's work at GM, could you kindly discuss with us what you believe to be the genuine definition of culture and what special attribute do you believe Mary Barra possessed to have initiated this significant change at GM? Well, personally, I would define culture as the way that a group of people might think and act. So an organization, and it's about

shared values as well, really. So organizational culture, you know, you would expect the people who work for that organization to probably share a set of common values. And if they're faced with a challenge that you would expect them to understand and to know how to respond in a certain way. And cultures are often

also obviously set at the top. So you really expect the top, the leaders at the top of the organization to be setting the tone when it comes to culture and to be modeling, really, the little values that they expect everyone else to embrace. So that's what I would say about culture. I mean, one of the things about Mary Barra, quite distinctive is she

embraces the concept of servant leadership. So that's a philosophy where leaders see it as their goal as being to serve their people and prioritise their growth, well-being and empowerment. So it's not really about this sort of authoritarian top-down leadership that can be quite prevalent in organisations. This is what I say you kind of do it. Servant leadership really is kind of seeing yourself

as an enabler of other people. And it is about ultimately being a role model as well, but it's really about sort of finding ways to bring out the best in your people, you know, really empowering them to, you know, bring out the good things and to, you know, focus on acting on the good values that you

want to promote. So, I mean, I think if you have that philosophy that you're there to serve others, it really helps to bring out a positive culture change and to people believe you're not doing what you're doing purely to serve yourself, but to bring about the greater good. So in the case of Mary Barra's case, she was obviously trying to improve safety, the safety culture of General Motors.

So people really needed to believe that, you know, she was genuine and sincere about that, which I think came over very strongly. But also it's kind of, you know, it's not a sort of pointing fingers kind of, you've got this wrong, you know, that authoritarian sort of approach. It's more kind of, how can we all work together to improve the safety culture of this organization? So I think that's the way that she went around doing

it. And now I think, it ultimately always going to be more effective at influencing other people. If, if those people believe that you are sort of acting in a way, you know, that you're kind of trying to further the greater good of the world and not really

just furthering your your own agenda. And I think that's really important, sort of, in any leadership capacity, really, to always, like, have that sort of bigger picture, because, you know, whenever, we're all mortal, so, you know, we're all here on Earth for a short amount of time, and we only have so much, so much time to make a difference in our

lives. So, you know, it's kind of really important, I think, for each and every one of us just to be thinking about how we can always make that bigger impact and not just thinking about ourselves on a day-to-day basis or our immediate teams on a day-to-day basis. How are we helping to change the world in the way some of these leaders I mentioned in the book are trying to change the world? Because actually, we do all have it in our power to help change the world, even if it's in very small ways.

In Chapter 3 of 21st Century Business Icons, You write on page 38 thus, and I quote, Brewer herself studied chemistry at the private Spelman College in Atlanta, a liberal arts and science college that focuses on educating women of African descent. Her time at Spelman was a defining experience for her because it enabled her to hone her critical thinking skills. It also put her in an environment of, in her own words, women who look like me, but come from different walks of life.

Tragically, her father died of cancer when she was in her last year of college, six weeks before graduation. Sally, please talk to us about why Rosalind Brewer's comments at an interview with news channel CNN were so controversial. How does Brewer deal with racism? Give us an example. I found Rosalind Brewer a really interesting person to profile for the book and she was just one of only two people, along with Mary Barra I think, who wasn't actually an entrepreneur

who sort of founded the business that she led. And actually, one of the sad things was that she actually stood down as CEO of Walgreens Boots Alliance a couple of days before my book was published, which I thought was a shame because she's such a good role model and what she did, she was so extraordinary. I mean, in terms of, you know, she's one of very few black women to lead a really large US company. And she had, No, she hadn't

had an easy run of it in life. She was born to two parents who worked in the automotive industry and didn't finish high school, but they did really value education. She got to the top by working incredibly hard. She said in interviews about doing jobs that other people didn't want to do. So she put a lot of hard graft in it. And she's a real champion of diversity. And she tries to teach

and train other people on diversity. Now, in terms of her sort of CNN appearance, she was actually being interviewed at the time about how she promoted workforce diversity within her business. So effectively, she was being put on the spot and asked to comment about diversity. It wasn't something that she had was necessarily kind of launching forth in a dedicated article or something, you know, she was kind of being interviewed

at the time on this particular subject. And she just gave the example of attending a meeting with suppliers where the other side of the table were all Caucasian males. And I think she was just trying to say, well, you know, that probably isn't really very reflective of the workforce anymore. So, you know, why are these situations occurring?

and she thought the comments were fairly innocuous because I mean you know for quite a few years obviously there's been you know big push for greater diversity within the workforce at all levels so she didn't necessarily think that was particularly controversial but she was criticized on right-wing websites for discriminating against men and actually she did receive death threats as a result of what she said so It was quite scary, obviously,

for her. She had put herself out there in the end with those comments, even though she didn't necessarily think they were that controversial. So, I mean, I think primarily she deals with racism by virtue of being an inspiring role model. You know, there's a say in fiction writing about you know, telling, sorry, showing, not telling. And, you know, I think she's obviously a very good example of that. She, you know, she's

shown what can be done. And, and in that respect, she's paving the way for other women. And when she was chief operating officer of Starbucks, there was a very famous case that was in the news. And after two young black men were arrested on suspicion of trespassing, and I think it's because they were sitting in the cafe waiting for someone and they hadn't ordered a drink. And The manager had called the police and actually they hadn't done anything wrong. They were just sitting

waiting for their contact to arrive. And that caused a lot of controversy at the time to Starbucks. And after that event, she did sort of, I think, review kind of the culture of the organization. And she helped to ensure that staff were given racial bias training. So she's been a proactive person in sort of trying to help address racism within business. In chapter 14 of 21st Century Business Icons, we write on page 186 thus, and I quote, they were never in it for the money. But today,

Sahin and Tureci are billionaires. Their company, BioNTech, was valued at $35 billion as of January 2023, and by the end of 2021, It employed nearly 3,100 full-time employees. Sahin remains CEO of the company. Tureci is its chief medical officer. Tureci is also president of the German-based Association of Cancer Immunotherapy. In 2021, the pair of scientists received German's Order of Merit for their achievements in developing a COVID-19 vaccine, one of the country's

highest honours. In a fast-changing world of identity politics, are immigrants an asset

or a liability? And how can we educate ordinary citizens that a coat of many colors is actually a good thing for business, the arts, and many other aspects of our society? Well, this is a very interesting question. The question of immigration is obviously extremely topical due to the controversies in many markets. I mean, I would say on the topic of are immigrants an asset or a liability? I mean, the answer to that is quite nuanced,

really. It's not a black and white question because, you know, that's with so many things in life. The answer is probably both. So, you know, you look at, I mean, there's no doubt that immigrants can make massive economic contributions to companies. I mean, one of the, and you mentioned the BioNTech founders there, obviously they've done amazing things, not just economically, but contributed to

world health. But Elon Musk, you know, the world's richest man, he's actually an immigrant to the US and, you know, he's quite influential in their economy. You can see the huge contribution that immigrants can make. On the other hand, and this is something that academics write about and they're far more knowledgeable than me, but immigration, if you have widespread immigration, it can hold down wages and therefore

impact on living standards. And, you know, there can be kind of other detrimental effects as well of large scale immigration, especially if you haven't got your cultural integration and, you know, that's not being managed effectively. So I think, you know, kind of with immigration, it's kind of, it can be a very good thing as long as it's managed well. One thing I do find in my work too is, you know, there's a flip side of it. So in my market, people

tend to talk about immigration. when I interview, because I interview leaders from all around the world, and some of them talk a lot about the problem of emigration, that basically, you know, it can happen, for example, in the finance profession, as people get trained up, they become very skilled as finance professionals, they might have a global qualification, and therefore, they then move to other markets.

So what that then happens is their home market is constantly battling against a talent brain drain, really. I think, you know, my conclusion as a result of all this on the subject of migration, and this is, you know, my personal view is that I wonder if it does contribute to inequality really, you know, both a global

level and a local level. And really, I actually think what we really need to be doing is really kind of making sure that whoever we've actually got in our society, that we're drawing

on all of their talents. and making sure that, yes, I mean, people from different backgrounds, people from different genders, you know, social economic groups who may be being left behind, but actually what we're really trying to do is, you know, really kind of bring everyone together because I think one of my concerns at the moment is I feel that the gap, and I certainly see this in my own country, is I feel the gap

is just becoming wider and wider between the haves and the have-nots. And I think that's a shame in a world where, you know, actually in many respects, things are getting so advanced and, you know, there's incredible things we can do in medicine, you know, we can fly around the world, we can go to the moon, you know, we can do amazing things. And yet there are countries in the world where large proportions of population don't even have access to electricity and can't

switch on their lights. You know, so I think, you know, I don't know, to me, it just does seem a very sort of unequal world. And I actually personally think that's kind of one of the greatest sort of challenges that

we face today. And, and kind of actually, you know, as leaders, something I think everyone could be thinking about really is how can they, you know, draw on some of the diverse talents in their communities to kind of you know, obviously enhances the business by bringing all these kind of different perspectives. And at the same time, it has the benefit, actually, of, you know, having a positive

social impact. And one of the things you talked about at the start, I think, is, you know, can businesses have a nobler role?

It's not just about making money. And, you know, when you see some of the politics that's gone on today, some of the kind of fracturing that's going on today, I think, you know, thinking about, you know, how can we kind of bring everyone together on this journey, not just you know, maybe a sort of fairly elite group of very highly educated people, but how can we sort of bring everybody with us? You know, I actually think that is one of the most important questions facing leaders

today in politics and in business. So those are my thoughts on the subject. The title of our podcast is Why Great Leadership

Will Make You Question Everything. Professor Shoshana Zuboff, Talking about her recent book, The Age of Surveillance Capitalism, The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier of Power, said the following, and I quote, surveillance capitalism is the story of the digital revolution and how the early utopian prospects of the web darkened into a rogue mutation of capitalism marked by concentrations of wealth, knowledge, and power unprecedented in human history. Now, Gmail was launched

in 2004. Google subsequently admitted that it has scanned private correspondence for personal information. In the same year, Facebook was founded. Its business model also based on the capture of and access to personal information The metaphor Zuboff uses is one of conquest. With so little left to be, that could be commodified, the last virgin territory was private human experience. In 1986, 1% of the world's information was digitized.

In 2013, it was 98%. Sally, in light of our podcast theme, What are the consequences of this new economic world order for democracy and freedom? And how should we interpret the worth of human rights in an age of giving up our privacy for the sake of convenience? Well, I mean, this is a very big topic. It's

a very complex topic. I think that you are right in the sense that actually, you know, we've seen that with some of the big tech companies that actually, you know, there is a great deal of wealth concentrated in comparatively few companies, some of which deal very heavily in personal information. So I think that is true. I think that actually in terms of digitalization, yes, on the one hand, you know, it can impact on your privacy.

And I think in, you know, all of us as individuals do have a responsibility to try and protect our privacy actually online. And sometimes it surprises me how much people do give away about themselves, how they how much they choose to, you know, kind of invade their own privacy, technically. So I think, yes, we can't always control necessarily what

big tech companies are doing. Obviously, there have been a lot more data regulations coming in, including the GDPR in Europe, which is obviously intended, these things are intended to protect us. So I think there are protections there. I think we can protect ourselves. But at the same time, while I think technology can be a threat to democracy if it's kind of used in the wrong way. At the same time, it provides a lot of democracy.

I mean, people can go online and message, if they want to, some of the most powerful people in the world or respond to their tweets or whatever it is. Or people can complain about something they're not very happy with online, and then they actually might get a response when they haven't had any response on the customer services team. No, so I think

actually, you know, it's a bit, just like, you know, my response to the immigration question, I suppose, you know, yes, technology is kind of, yes, it's a good thing, and yes, it's a bad thing. It's kind of both those things, really. I mean, it depends, you know, on the kind of way you look at it, really. I mean, I, on the topic of personal information, I don't stress about, I mean, I worry about my bank details going to people I don't want

them to go to. A lot of my other personal information available online, it's not really probably much of interest to anyone, although there are probably, you know, wouldn't necessarily want everyone to kind of hack into my personal computer and, you know, necessarily see all my work on there or my family photos or whatever it is that I keep on there. But, you know, on balance, I actually kind of think the advantages of technology and you know, at

the convenience that you talk about. On balance, I think that they are kind of, they do outweigh the disadvantages really. And I think it's important that regulators and policy makers are protecting us through the use of technology. And I think, you know, with AI coming in, you know, that's even more important because, you know, there's a risk of bias decision-making, all that kind of thing happening. And, you know, algorithms making decisions about us

that could be really quite flawed. So there's some real, real big ethical issues there. But at the same time, I mean, you know, these algorithms could be far more effective at spotting cancers and things than humans actually are, and they will make our world more efficient. And maybe they might possibly help to address the inequality issue. Although, you know, they could also exacerbate the inequality issue that I just mentioned as well. So, you know, I think that's quite a threat there

really. So, I mean, the world is not going to go backwards. Technology is not going to disappear just like, you know, all the machines that came out in the industrial revolution. You know, it's just that we're not going to be going back to living in caves and not having Facebook anymore. That's not going to happen. We've got to find a way that we make peace with it and we live with

it. We look at the downsides, we look at the plus sides, and we develop policies and strategies that are always trying to make the best of those things while always having in mind the idea of how by doing this, in the end, can we make the world a better place?

Because, you know, nothing is perfect. I mean, you know, you see the big drive for electric cars at the moment, not because, of course, they're great, you know, on the emissions front and things, but then they need loads of mining for their batteries, to get the minerals for their batteries. And so, you know, that's bad for the natural environment and, you know, then you've got risks of child minors and all kinds of things. It's very hard with anything in life to find

a really perfect solution. I think what really,

from a leader's perspective, is evaluating the trade-offs. And I think that's where leadership really comes in here. When you look at any kind of problem, any kind of scenario, and technology's one, it's really always about ethical trade-offs, I think. How much information do you need from people you know, create a product or a solution that is going to make a better difference

to their lives. And in the case of Facebook, you know, yes, there's this handing over of data and everything, personal privacy and all that kind of thing. But actually, if you look at Facebook on a positive side, you can say, well, people connected with people they've lost contact with years ago. And suddenly, through Facebook, they're able to find them and connect with them and catch up and find out how about all their families

are. And then in a world of a loneliness epidemic, which we have, actually, Facebook brings people together. So you kind of, I think you can look look at technology, it's this very dark world controlled by a few people. And certainly one of the things I have found from doing my research is there are a group of very influential people in the tech sector, in the US really, who are actually probably far more influential in our lives than most of us actually realise.

And I certainly think that is true. But you can kind of look at it as this dark thing, or you can kind of look at it as all the opportunities it brings, And I think if at the end of the day, you said to people, well, you can just go digital detox, you know, don't do online banking, you have to go into the bank anymore, you all your social media will be cut off, set of emails, you can send everyone a letter, you know, if you gave people that kind of option, so would you

rather do that? You wouldn't get many people saying yes, I don't really think so. And I think it's really looking at how the world's evolving, and kind of figuring out, you know, how you can balance these trade offs. in a way that ultimately, even if it's not perfect, in the long term, overall creates more benefits for society than disadvantages. What is a common myth about your job as a business journalist and editor?

Well, I think the most common myth is that you can earn a lot of money from writing books. So I do have to kind of and correct people on that, even a book that does quite well, especially as a business book, you know, you're not likely to make yourself rich from it, unless you write something like Atomic Habits or something like that. So that's probably quite the common myth.

But I think that actually, one of the things about being a business journalist and editor, you know, that I really like, is, you know, being able to explore ideas, and you talk to interesting people, and get different perspectives on the world. And And then you, and often I talk to people who go away and make me think about things differently. And I think, you know, that's a very important thing. And I really value that because I

just get just such a broad perspective, you know, from talking to different people. And actually one of the things I like most is talking to people in different countries and, you know, hearing their perspectives on the world. And, you know, it's kind of really, been eye-opening for me, some of the things I've learned from talking to different people around the world. Because often, in your own country, everything is seen through the lens of your own country, with the immigration

thing being a big obvious example. In the UK, they talk a lot about immigration. Like I say, when I talk to leaders in other countries, they talk about emigration, which is the

flip side of the same thing. And so it really makes you sort of I think I have a job that kind of makes me go away and question things and it makes you sort of question the status quo and also accepted thought and also because it's your job as a journalist is to kind of present a balanced view, it does make you, I think, you know, you're not always going to say, well, this is absolutely right,

or this is absolutely wrong. And, you know, I think, I tend to think that most sort of topics and things, you know, there is a bit of nuance in them, really. And it's your job as a journalist to not always, you know, toe the party line, but to say things that you know, maybe a bit controversial or may make people think differently or, you know, kind of, you know, it's part of your job to sort of, I think, get people to sort of challenge their own take on the world a little

bit. And that's kind of what I enjoy about my job. I mean, I think one of the myths people can have about as a journalist is, oh, journalists just make things up, for example. And actually, obviously not. Professional journalists should be very vigilant about fact checking, not just make things up. Also, people would go, well, the news is so negative. But of course, it's human nature. Journalists, at the end of the day, journalists write what other people are interested in reading,

right? If we didn't do that, we wouldn't have a job. So if you said to me, Sally, how was your holiday? And I said, oh, it was lovely. I had a marvelous time. I just sat by the pool drinking cocktails. You'd think that was really dull. But if you said to me, how was your holiday? I said, oh, well, you know. there was a tarantula in my bedroom, and you know, and I kind of gave you a long list of dramas of everything that happened in my holiday, you'd be far more

interested in that. So, you know, I think when people always say to me, oh, it's all so negative. And I think to myself, well, yeah, we write what people want to read, you know, if everyone just wanted some kind of anodyne cheerful view of the world, you know, a lot of articles wouldn't be written. I mean, there is obviously a lot of articles that give practical advice and support people want to read those. But in terms of, and also, you know, the reality is lots of bad

things go on in the world. So you know, if you want to keep up to date the news, unfortunately, People do bad things. That's the other thing. I mean, we don't make up the bad things that people do. They're going away doing them. This is not journalists coming up with them. If people do bad things, then we're just

covering the news. So I don't know whether I've busted a few myths there, but flying the flag for journalists, especially in this age of misinformation that we've got, I actually think that following trusted journalists who've really done their research and think about the issues quite deeply, that's quite a useful thing. Finally, Sally, please advise our listeners where they may find your book 21st Century Business Icons.

Well, you can get it in different places. It's available directly from the publisher's website. So it's published by Kogan Page and their website is www.koganpage.com. It's also available on Amazon for people who are able to access Amazon. And actually, it's been seen on sale in various airports around

the world. I've been very lucky and I've had friends send me pictures they've seen it in South Africa and Singapore and places like that, which has given me a lot of pleasure seeing Dubai as well, seeing photos of my books in airports around the world. So it's available in lots of different places. And I think from Copenhagen, you can even get a electronic version as well. So, yes, if you're interested, please do go and read it.

Ms. Sally Percy, thank you very much for being a guest on this podcast. Thank you. It's been a great pleasure. Thank you for having me. This podcast was brought to you by The Kamugasa Challenge in partnership with Democracy in Africa. Democracy in Africa is a platform dedicated to building a bridge between academics, policymakers, practitioners and citizens. The second episode in our leadership series is entitled Slavery, how to pay for the sins

of our forefathers. An interview with Charlie Gladstone, the great great grandson of William Gladstone, the four time British Prime Minister. William Gladstone was the son of Sir John Gladstone, the first Baronet, a Scottish merchant, planter, Tory politician and slave owner. The podcast will go live on April 14th, 2025. If you enjoyed this podcast, please click the share button on your app to send this episode to a friend. Thank you very much for taking the time to listen to

this podcast. Until next time, goodbye.