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use some advice. And we tried to keep this pretty general. I'm really really honored to have her on the podcast, and I hope you guys enjoy. So let's just dive right into it. Hi, Dr Goldcher, Hi Olivia, how are you. I'm good. It's so nice to meet you, So nice to meet you. Thank you so much for coming on. Well, thank you for being brave. This is not easy, and so I think it's it's really an amazing milestone in your healing process that you're here in this context willing

to have this really vulnerable conversation. So thank you. Yeah, I think I definitely want to open up today. I want to hear, I want to learn a little bit too about certain things. And obviously I've done a little bit of research on you before coming on here today, and um, I think a starting point that is something that means a lot to me. And I don't want to I'm like nervous to talk about this in general, just because I feel like I've just gone through it

personally myself. So it is a weird thing to talk about, and I don't want to upset anybody when I'm talking about it or um, but I know you talk about a lot of you know, the idea behind cancel culture and how it has certain mental health effects on somebody, and it's something I'm super fascinated by. Yeah, And so first of all, maybe you could just tell the listeners a little bit about what you do, who you are, and then we can kind of jump into that conversation.

That sounds great. Well, I'm Dr Hillary Culture. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and pre COVID. I operated out of my office in Beverly Hills, but now I'm in my virtual office out of my home, and I specialized in trauma and anxiety and depression and also work with parents and kiddos quite a bit as well. I do some work on Instagram to kind of um put forth some of my ideas and do a lot of media work

as well, CNN Box podcasts like this one. Um, and it's it's really my pleasure to be with you today. So that's a little quick summary. Um okay, Well, I think, yeah,

let's just jump right into it. In general, I think that I kind of want to just talk about just to start, like, obviously, right now, I think, especially with my generation, cancel culture and the bandwagon effect and the mob mentality of it is really prevalent, and it's so big, and I think it's so much bigger than I'm not even just talking about like any of my own personal situations, but just in general through kids over zoom in school, like being canceled from a classmate behind a screen, And

I think it's obviously just a huge thing right now, and it's something I'm really passionate about because I know, you know in the past how it's affected my mental health. But I think a lot of people don't realize the effects it actually has. And I want to hear more of like a professional and like a scientific kind of explanation of that if you're willing to, just so people

can understand a little bit more, of course, yes. And you know, the notion of cancel culture evolved in a really intense set of environmental and cultural circumstances right kind of on the heels of the Me Too movement and all of the black life matters issues and a lot of political important issues that came up, and people wanted

to hold other people accountable. This is not in and of itself a bad thing, the idea that we hold up issues that don't serve ourselves as individuals, that don't serve our society, and we call it out and we say we want change. Right. It sort of began as a wave of really accountability, but it has evolved into cancel culture, which, as most of the listeners know, is that some version of really deleting someone from their personal and professional stature in the community and um in social media,

etcetera after a series of or particular mistake. And when you ask the question, what happens to a person that's at the center of cancel culture, it's such a critical issue. It's so important to look at the other side because while we can hold a space for holding someone accountable, we also have to hold a space for looking at what happens to that person on the other side, And the answer is it is a traumatic event. It is an absolutely traumatic event that can lead to depression, anxiety,

and sort of a complete disorientation of the self. Right. One identifies themselves through certain relationships, through certain markers in their lives, and they see themselves through their own eyes and how others see them as well, and when those things collapse or are eliminated or are disallowed, it's super disorienting.

And so I've said this before and other contexts, but my issue from clinical standpoint and from sort of a human being standpoint with cancel culture is that it forecloses the most important thing about the issues that are being raised, which is an opportunity for learning, for education, and for the public at large to witness someone in that process,

which is invaluable. And so when we have someone like you and others that is standing in an error, standing and a mistake, is standing in an event which with which they have regret or which they could change, and we foreclose the opportunity for that dialogue to occur, so much is lost, an opportunity for growth, and so much

as lost for that person at the center of it. Yeah, and I feel like I'm so or just personally, I'm so hesitant to talk about this, and I think it's like I'm so hesitant to talk about it because of the trauma that you're kind of talking about it, like oh gosh, if I say this or if it comes off like kind of the wrong way, am I going to get canceled again? Or is this going to be a thing? And it really does leave such an impression in one's mind, you know, like really I and I again,

I get so nervous. I feel like I walk on eggshells when I talk, just because I don't want to say the wrong thing, and I want to make it clear to people listening that like I'm not trying to victimize myself, but I also I'm trying just from being and having this personal experience, Like I really do understand like how different of a person I've become because of it,

and not entirely in a good way. Sometimes, like I really do feel like I have way harder days or I'm way harder on myself, and I'm so scared of like looking at my name and something bad is happening and I'm the face of it, and it's gonna be like this big thing that blows up in my face again.

And it's like it's so interesting to me because I feel like people who have experienced it, even if it's in a different capacity, like you just you live your life a little bit a little bit differently in my opinion, and you just kind of shut down and you don't you almost start to you like kind of start to believe what people are telling you, like you don't deserve a second chance, and like there is no room for growth, and you feel like not to sound super dark, but

it's like just what how do you bounce back then? Because I want to be alive. I still want to grow up. I want to you know. But then you have people saying like, well, you don't deserve to and you should go hide forever, and it's almost just like, in kind of a dark way, it's just like don't exist anymore basically, which obviously is really hard to hear,

especially when you're the person being told that. You know, yeah, there's that message of literal annihilation which is really dark and really lonely and scary, and I want to help you in this moment create a paradigm goes for you individually and maybe for the listeners, which is the idea that things can co exist. Feelings can co exist, steps can coexist, they can live side by side. And how this applies to what we're talking about is the idea that two things can be true at the same time.

You can both have deep regret about what transpired. You can have um a wish to imagine too, the opportunity to do it differently. And at the same time you can also have the capacity and the ability and the fantasy and the hope to change and grow and to use your life to do good in the world and

to help teach others. These things can be true at the same time, and I think for you personally, it's one of the things that over time that will probably help ground you that you're going to, in my view, have to lean into because ultimately, at the end of the day, you're going to have to decide how to move forward with all of these things true at the

same time. Right there, there maybe folks who decide they don't forgive you, or decide that to see you thrive, um uh, sort of as in violation of the sanctity of the errors that you made. Right, But there are also going to be a lot of folks who are cheering for you, and ultimately you have to decide what

you want to make of this. And so I think for you as you speak about it, as you think about it, both publicly and personally, holding those truth for yourself, that these things are true at the same time, right, And and that in part is in my view, what gives you the the right, the courage, the ability to move forward. You can both have regret and understanding and

at the same time want something for yourself. Yeah, and just obviously I'm just speaking a little bit about this and like my personal life, just because I do feel like I understand it to a certain degree, but obviously it's so much bigger than just me, and I'd way rather talk about other people, like not in maybe the public eye, but that are dealing with the same sense

of bullying and mold mentality. And as a therapist, obviously like some advice you could give to them and how to get through that and how you get through to the other side, and when you are having a really bad day, if you have any tips, because I know a lot of my viewers on YouTube there constantly in my messages, just like how are you getting through this

rough day? Or and I just feel like, as much as I'd love to give advice, I'm not licensed nor professional, and so um I think would be really helpful for some people to hear it from you. Yeah, yeah, I

think one of the most important things. And maybe this seems paradoxical to getting through, but in fact it's really a requirement is to validate the feelings deeply acknowledge them to yourself and if you have safe others to talk about, right, is to validate and acknowledge how difficult it is, how painful it is, how traumatic it is, how big it is to be canceled, to feel bullied, to feel um separated,

to feel excluded. Right, that is, that is a huge trauma for anyone at a public macro level, like you've dealt with or someone as you're talking about that's in their fifth grade classroom and have you left out of a birthday party? Right? The loneness that comes with that, the trauma, the anxiety, the fear about what this means

for the future is devastating. And so just to acknowledge that those feelings that are coming up in the face of that are normal, are expected, are appropriate, I think is really important because we can feel like, oh, we want to make those feelings go away, or we shouldn't talk about them, or something's wrong with us that we're feeling so broken. In the face of it, those kind of feelings are normal. It's sort of a primitive edict for us to feel connected and included, and when that

doesn't happen, it's devastating. It's really really hard. So the first step is kind of acknowledging, validating, and the second step is being able to create a narrative inside of yourself, which is a really really tall order of what we're feeling traumatized right and we're feeling separate and excluded, but we have to decide who we're going to be in

the face of these kind of challenges. Is how we're going to view ourselves, what we're going to say to ourselves, what we're gonna say to ourselves about what's happening, and so being able to lean into what you know about yourself, how you move through the world, the connections you have with your friends, with your family, the kindness that you show others who you are deeply inside, being able to hold onto that narrative because in the end, it's really

us um that carries the strongest messages about ourselves. Right, It's that voice that we have inside of ourselves that informs how we move through the day. So being able to be extent possible to mobilize what we know about ourselves and keep interrupting that self talk even though those messages are coming in, even though they're devastating, even though they're painful, to keep replacing them with the truth that you know about yourself. And I want to pause and

acknowledge that this is the hardest thing ever. I mean, this is this is like kids, teenagers, young adults, grown ups, and um senior citizens. We work on this our our whole lives. Being able to not live in the projections of others, being able to use our own voice to replace the ideas of notions and the judgment of others. It's really, really, really, really hard, But it's a muscle that we have to build. And then we want to get into a bunch of self care as we go

through this like tremendously difficult journey. Right, And so the things that make you feel good, whether it's meditation or music or taking a bath or connecting with a loved one reading a book. It's critical to kind of facilitate opportunities to calm our body as we do this deep work. And I call it deep work because standing up in the face of negative voices is is one of the

hardest things to do in the whole world. And so I don't have advice that makes it go away, but I have guidance to help build that part inside of yourself that says like I'm I'm I'm good enough. I deserve to to to be here. I deserve to live a life even if I don't have the approving eyes

and words of others. I'm enough. Yeah. And I think also with with social media and how obviously it's just at its peak and everybody's on social media from twelve to thirteen year olds, and I feel like that's amplified cancel culture in itself. And I guess I'm just trying to ask on top of that, maybe like what advice could you give, because that the last thing you said, I think is super helpful um for a lot of people.

But with social media, with I feel like so many young women and men comparing themselves and feeling like, you know, they're not worthy of this or this person's life looks so perfect on this platform and then you get really

down on yourself. And although it's not really having to do with cancel culture, I do think it's like another little form of maybe trauma is not the right word, but just like, I don't know, you could probably phrase this way more eloquently than I am, but am I kind of making sense that you're understanding what I'm saying, Just like, how how to help younger kids through that and looking at social media and comparing themselves and feeling so down on themselves that it does create a different

level of depression, And um, yeah, I guess that's kind of what my main point is. Your your point is a critical one and should be an ongoing discussion that we have as parents, as caregivers of children, as teachers, and amongst our our our kids and young adults. The dynamic you're talking about is devastating for young people, right This whole to compare um, what your own life feels like relative to what other people's lives look like, and

the very nature of social media. We can have a whole other discussion about this is designed to do just that. There's sort of an addictive quality that it pulls for right and and we all are susceptible, regardless of your age or station in life. So I have a few few thoughts. One is pretty practical and perhaps obvious, but

I think social media breaks are critical. And if our parents listening out there to really take the temperature of your teens and your young adults that you're still connected with or live in your house, and employ social media breaks to interrupt this addictive poll to compare, and you lift um our sense of self outside of that tunnel and um more outside into the world in terms of

how we move through it and what we do. Um. It's a more practical piece of advice, but um, the dynamic that kids face is really complex, and so you have to continue to build a narrative about yourself right and before Actually, I want to step back and say this as a as a psychologist, and I work with folks in the public eye, and I work with folks not in the public eye. And the notion of social media and this comparison culture comes up all the time.

Um for folks that are celebrities and have a lot of power and famous, and for folks who sort of live a non public life. It is you big? It is. It is across the board, And so no matter how many followers you have, UM, what your body looks like, what your clothes look like, what relationships are in and how many friends you have, etcetera. Everyone everyone, And I can underscore this looks like a yellow highlighter and it

feels the same. And I know it's hard to believe if, um, you're looking at this hierarchy and see celebrity, and UM, folks that look a certain way or project a certain image, they have to be at the top of the untill health hierarchy. Right, That's the thought that consumers of social media think. But I'm here to tell you that that is not true. Everyone has the same feelings of insecurity, the same fears of not being accepted, the same concerns

about their acceptability internally externally. It is the same across the board. I see it all of the time, and so I guess i'd start there that you are not alone. Everyone feels these feelings, and it's why it's so critical to interrupt your consumption so that you get some relief.

And then, as I was talking about before, we sort of hit this before, but maintaining that narrative about what is actually important to you, what actually resonates in your life, what actually moves you, What are you here to do? What services are you here to provide to those in your life? Right, those are the things that help ground us over time and so beginning, and you know, if you're in fifth grade, that might be might be lofty questions, but then the lean of the idea of like who

am I? What makes me me? That's the most important. You know, how do I relate to my friends? One? Are the things that I like to do? What are the things that I like about myself? It's really critical to keep that kind of dynamic dialogue going internally to combat these messages that are coming in. And I wish I had a a perfect response to this enormous dilemma because it absolutely contributes to anxiety and depression in our

young kids and and and adults as well. And so we have to get really active in the face of it. We have to get really active about the voices inside our mind and interrupting how we talk to ourselves. Yeah, and it's feeling like this thing is kind of inevitable and it's social media is here to stay. And that's how it feels like. So I think that's great advice.

It's really trying to dig deep within yourself to find a way to get through it, because it doesn't seem like right now at this rate, it's you know, really going anywhere, and a conversation I feel like I have so often with and I'm just curious on your opinion

of it. But I talked about this with my sister a lot, just because I think I was probably one of the last like age groups to not grow up with social media and Instagram I think was created when I was a teenager, so I didn't have that like you know, when I was younger, I was playing with dolls and I wasn't comparing myself and I at a young age, you're not looking at magazine covers and models.

And now these kids are looking at basically magazine covers on their own Instagrams with photos that have been touched, and it's just a completely different game for these kids now. And I think that something we talked about a lot is that is is it appropriate to say maybe social media should have an age restriction and would that help

with mental health in a certain capacity? Yes, yes, yes, a million thousand times yes, it would be absolutely my clinical professional preference that kids maybe wouldn't get on Instagram and social media until sixteen. Yeah, because that's what I

remember obviously growing up. Now you have kids, like even my friends little sisters, who are twelve and thirteen years old, and they're looking at these eighteen year olds on social media, and I think it's creating a whole lot of problems mentally because hey, you're almost seven years, eight years younger than a lot of these people you're looking at, So you're gonna get to that point eventually in your life. You're gonna grow up, You're gonna be mature one day.

And it's like it's almost I feel like stripping your youth a little bit because you're just you want to grow up so much faster. And there's a reason when we were like my friends and I growing up, when you'd watch TV and commercials, the commercials were really catered towards children. And now, you know, with the access to just see anything, I feel like you're just prone to

grow up so much more, I guess, just quickly. But also I think it does have some you know, really hard effects on young girls and guys and mental health for sure. Yeah, I mean it's it's shifting the paradigm right under our noses, right that young girls, I think in particular, are thinking about their physical appearance, are thinking about their bodies, are thinking about their impact on others

in that regard at such a young age. Yeah, being able to interrupt all of the questions and insecurities and fears and confusion that comes with those thoughts at that age is sort of a crisis in our country right now. And and less social media is somehow eliminated, it's really incumbent, as I was saying before, on professionals like myself and parents and caregivers and teachers and mentors of kids to interrupt the narrative that comes along with it. What's wrong

with me? I'm not good enough. I need to have these things in order to be acceptable and to really pare down a child's or young adult exposure to that because you're You're right, notions and ideas and narratives about themselves are getting in their way before that they would

are used to. Yeah. And it's like it's interesting too because I sit here and I am so passionate about this, Like I really do believe there needs to be an age restriction, especially just seeing you know, like my younger cousins or my friends, little sisters or little brothers and um.

But I think also at the same time, it's so hypocritical for me to sit here and say that, because then I feel like I'm adding to the problem of being, you know, in my twenties on a public platform, posting all my best angles and not wanting to show the hard moments. And so it's interesting too, It's like, how can I be better? But at the same time, I'm still human and I want to fit in and I want people to think, oh, wow, she has her stuff together and oh look at that, like she looks great

in that, because you want that validation. I think, you know, there's like a little level of like narcissism that comes with social media because you're just feeding off of people's um just perception of you. Well, just you saying this out loud right now is a very cool beginning to

that dialogue. Right. This is the very paradox of social media and why this addictive quality to it is that all of us can have the conversation about the damage that it causes or the poll that it has on any one of us to present our kind of best sides, and yet most of us still are compelled to do just that, right, Yeah, you don't want to show off the bad at all, And like, even if you know this could probably help somebody today, you're so in your head and you're I feel like I can speak on

behalf of a lot of people that are also maybe in the same like industry as me or whatever it might be. But it's just like, you want to help so many people. You don't want to give off this fake idea that your life is perfect, but at the same time, you're seeking validation from people you look up to or you see somebody else on social media that's, you know, so to speak, quote unquote a level higher,

and you want to get to that. And it's just like, I don't know, it's a vicious cycle because for me personally, I want to be able to like preach and help those and be like, Okay, life isn't perfect. And if you saw that, I had a thousand photos just taken of me and two of them looked okay that are on my Instagram now and the rest are totally not what those ones represent at all. It's like, I don't know, it's hard because I want to be helpful, but also being a human, you want to be liked and you

want to feel beautiful and you want to be validated. Yeah, what do you think your biggest fears are associated with that possibility? You know that if you did present a less curated version of yourself in in your social media world,

what are what are your biggest fears around that? I think for me personally, I have such a hard time being vulnerable and opening up in general, and I almost just feel like maybe if I showed my genuine personality and somebody didn't like that, it would hurt so much more than somebody seeing this like surface level of me online, because it's like, yeah, you can talk poorly about me for that, but like, thank god I didn't really actually put my all into that or really show who I

am at my core, because I'm so afraid people won't like it, which, in turn, I feel like would hurts so much more than somebody not liking this perfect version of me, because I know that's not true. You know, Yes, So it's sort of a protective shell and it's total defense mechanism of just like okay, well, well what it feels like is that there's only a certain level of damage or hurt or pain that can be caused because

of these boundaries you have in place. But I would offer this this possibility we can think about together, which is that ultimately, um, there's some there's some internal damage that that potentially takes place in this scenario. Right if there's a part of you that has this poll to like show up in a more authentic, messy, perfect way, because perhaps that's part of your calling, that's part of what you're meant to do here, right, Um, but you're

limited by these fears of being unaccepted. Um for who you sort of truly are. There's kind of a gap but what we call and there will be like a cognitive dissidence between who you really are inside and sort of what you're putting out there, and that can cause a kind of anxiety that can cause a sort of

lack of groundedness or a little bit of disorientation. And I would argue that although it's true, I think you're absolutely right that if you put more authentic images, more slices of yourself that are more vulnerable, more imperfect, and they were rejected, that it would hurt in a different way I think. I think that's right. It makes sense to me. It's it's more vulnerable, it's more real, and it feels like people are commenting on something that that

is straight from the heart. You know, that's part of your soul, your spirit, but none Nonetheless, there's a way in which then you still get to stand more fully kind of in who you are, right And I think that ultimately gives us a place of greater empowerment. When there's less of a gap between we are inside and how we move through the world, we are better poised to stand um in the face of that kind of rejection. Right, Yeah,

I couldn't agree more. It's tough, easier said than done, though you know doubt it's easier said than that than done. It would be a huge emotional risk, yeah, that, and it would require you maybe to um uh, maybe there's a part of you that tends to exile that imperfect parts of you, the messy parts of you, the chaotic parts of you. Right, it would require you to bring that a bit closer, and I think in the end

it would develop a much stronger sense of self. But in the short run, is that you like getting comfortable

and just the idea of it, it would be really uncomfortable. Yeah, And speaking of that sort of I feel like on the topic of wanting people to like you and then also wanting to show a different set of yourself, and then I think there's also a part of it where for anybody, I feel like, in any situation, big or small, I just kind of want to hear your perspective on self forgiveness and like not being so especially as you're

growing up and you're still so young. If we have young listeners right now, like if you have a little bit of guilt, and it can be on a big scale or a really small scale, but how you just come to and like not absolutely beat yourself up for a mistake. I think would be helpful to hear about.

It's such an important ongoing life skill to adapt this notion of accepting oneself as good enough, yeah, right, accepting oneself as being a human being that will make mistakes, have moments of weakness show up in ways that we won't feel good about. That isn't just a young person's thing.

That's a human being thing, and we have to develop a relationship with that truth over time in the name of our mental health and in the name of being able to continue to grow and to cultivate healthy relationships with people that would love, with partners, with kids, etcetera. So to kind of break that down, um starting with that paradigm, the idea that like, we are all going to make mistakes, We're all going to show up in

ways that we don't feel good about. Feelings like anger or jealousy or frustration or sadness or ego which isn't really a feeling the state of being right, are are going to enter our lives and at times we're not going to be able to get ahead of it, and being able to recognize that that's part of the experience of being human is a beginning. And the second part

I is being able to make amends. I think oftentimes in the face of us showing up in ways that we don't feel good about, we shut down, We suppressed, we don't want to space right, we avoid, we deny, we just mess who you're raising up your finger? Right? And this isn't because we don't care. It's because we've become so overwhelmed, we're sort of paralyzed with fear and we can't act. And this happens across the board. I see this with young people, and I see this with

folks who are you know, well into their seventies. Right. It's a defense mechanism UM to not stand in the damage that we've caused, to not stand um in in the discomfort of recognizing parts of ourselves that we don't

feel good about. This, to me is the most critical step is to sort of take the risk to stand in it, you know, to take the risk to stand in it first by ourselves, to really say out loud to ourselves or a therapy situation to our best friend with a trusted safe other, to being being able to say this happened. I don't feel good about it. I showed up in a way that I don't like. I I I wish I had done it differently. I regret it.

And being able to just stand in that truth instead of ignoring it dismissing it ross over is the first step in healing. And then I was I was talking about making amends, being able to go to the person or the persons that were affected and saying I didn't like what I said back there. I didn't feel good about it. I shut up in a way that that I don't like and I was angry, I was sad, I was depressed, I was jealous, right, And it's not

an excuse what that's what happened. I'm gonna be working on that and trying to and trying to do better next time. And in a way it sounds simple, um, but I think people would be surprised how often folks don't do that, don't lean into what happened, and can't find, um the words or the strength to say those things out loud. It's not that it's not hard. It's so so so hard, but we need to work really hard

to kind of interrupt those tendencies to just shut down. Yeah, And I think for me it's like I relate to that too, and different level of just being so hard on myself and just speaking to myself in such a negative way because of making a mistake so publicly. I think it's hard growing up and just in general making mistakes privately in the comfort of your own home with

your family and friends to get you through things. And then I think when you mess up in the public eye and you have millions of people and every day there's an article coming out about you that says this or this, isn't true, but now everybody believes it, and is there even a point in trying to clear up that rumor because people already hate me anyway, so like

why should I forgive myself? And it gets like, just for speaking from experience, it's like really challenging to It's just yeah, I think it's just really challenging for me personally to let go of so much guilt. Yes, yes, one of my favorite exercises. And I wonder how this will resonate and and maybe less so for younger people. But it is to think of about what you would say to your your own daughter or to your little sister.

Right made a mistake and made it publicly. The message that you would give wouldn't be some version of like you need to you need to to stay in the depth of that mistake. You need to feel bad for as long as you can. You need to never forgive yourself. And we wouldn't say that, We would say some persion of like, it's okay, it's okay to to to to show up in a way that you didn't feel good about. It's okay that you didn't know then what you know now.

It's okay that you're a learning, growing, thinking, feeling, evolving human being, and it's okay to carve out a path to do better. We would say that to our little sister, we would say that to our daughter. We have to adopt that narrative for ourselves. It doesn't exclude us, it must include us. And and there's no doubt, I mean, I really wanted to to lean into what you were talking about making a mistake in such a public fashion, and I know you're a low to hold yourself up

as a victim or someone that's suffering. That isn't what you've said at all, and I really want to highlight that. But there is a certain grief, and we already use the word trauma that comes with making a mistake in a public setting and having this kind of feedback, this kind of dialogue about it for months and years thereafter. There's a lot of grief that comes with it. You've lost something, you've lost a certain kind of piece, you've lost a certain kind of contentment, and a certain kind

of clarity in the aftermath of that. And so part of I think your task, or anyone that's been in a situation like that, is to mobilize a new narrative, right, is to mobilize a new paradigm. So who am I

in the aftermath of this? Because this can't delete this, this is always going to be true, right, And so deciding and I know this is part of how you're kind climbing out of where you've been, that it is okay to have not been able to do better when you didn't know better, and that it is incumbent upon you now to do better when you do know better. That's part of the evolution of being human. And we all are doing really well if we consider ourselves to

be on that path. I think also, that's just so for just my certain situation, Like that's so hard for me to get to that point of like it's okay, Olivia, Like you you didn't know back then, and then you obviously have so many people online being like you should have known, you should have done better, this shouldn't have happened in the first place, Like, and then you have people telling you like, well, clearly you haven't learned anything still,

and it's it's hard when you're in the actual position and you it's like what do you have, Hey, you don't know me, how do you know that? And be I would be crazy to not have learned anything from this situation of just constant like guilt and stress that I've given to myself and waking up every day for almost two years straight and seeing something written about you or and I'm not saying this to throw myself a little pity party, because I also think it's circumstantial. Obviously

we really messed up. I don't want that to be taken out of context, but just speaking as a human, just with my own mental it's like, I don't know, it's just so much harder for me to be like forgiving of myself because I feel so unforgiven by what feels like the entire world to me is just like

everybody hates me. Yes, I deeply hear that, And it presents a unique and super painful challenge because your task is ultimately going to be being able to divide out a space for your own voice, for your own ideas about what forgiveness looks like, from what part of you it comes from, and the road that you're going to get on moving forward, and that is going to have to be separate from the voices and the feedback of others. And I am deeply acknowledging how difficult and painful that is.

Any one of us would be impacted by that kind of energy coming our way, But nonetheless, in the face of it, we have to decide that we are we want to use the word deserving. That what you were just saying before really resonated with me. How you were talking about h the idea that people are saying to you, what but but you shouldn't known better, you should have known better? And you are you are agreeing with it.

You are affirming that truth. Right, You're agree that you you wish you had known better, you should have known better. That's part of the uh. Um, the journey here, that's part of the reconciliation is the recognition that you couldn't, you didn't and uh, the enlightenment that came after the fact, that that's part of the pain that you felt and that others are ascribing to you. Right, that's that's part of what you're acknowledging and part of what we're living with.

And I think, um, there is UM. I don't want to put this. There's a way in which that people that consume situations like yours, right, who consume it, read

about it, comment about it think about it. UM. While many of them have their own appropriate emotional opinions, uh, some of them also are projecting their own pain, their own confusion, their own ideas onto your yours and other situations right UM that uh, their own trauma, their own disenfranchisement, their own anxieties and fears that occur in their own life make it difficult to stift through your journey and to uh get on board with um your evolution. And

it's just something to remember. It's not meant as a UM a way to disparage anyone who thinks about the situation has commented on it. There's just a lot of projection happening. There's a lot of emotion that has come with this situation, and some of it is about what happened, and some of it is about the folks that are consuming this information. So all of this to say, you can't forever live in other people's projections. It will it will, um, it will leave you sort of forever victimized if that's

the case. And how in honestly, this is just a personal question, but with trauma, like how do you start to move forward from that and not let it dictate your future? And I guess just just not be so hard on yourself. But are there certain steps you take besides just you know, recognizing like, Okay, I know my truth, I know who I am as a human. Like it's time to just you know, start to let go and try your best to move forward and to do better.

But maybe for somebody that didn't make a specific mistake but just has uh some sort of guilt or trauma in their life and they're beating themselves up every day and they're in this hole so so deep, and they don't see the light at the end of the tunnel yet, and they don't see a great future ahead of them, and they kind of feel like their whole world is crashing down on them. Like what type of advice would

you give somebody who's going through something like that. Yeah, I I'd be remist if I didn't say, And maybe this is obvious, but that if someone is suffering in that way so persistently, so protically seeking outside help, is is really important that that that's a really important thing that I encourage And hopefully the stigma associated with mental health intervention is much less um and so that would be the first line of defense. I would absolutely encourage.

But in terms of what we can do moment to moment, day by day, a really important concept I like to talk about is kind of the interruption of neural pathways UM that repeat UM and elongate and prolonged trauma. And this is what I mean. So when you, for example, UM, and I can extend it out to other folks as well, But when you read a comment online or something, you have a neural pathway that goes from UM, you don't deserve to be forgiven. Maybe that's the comment all the

way to like I'm a bad person, I'm not worthy. Um, I'm I'm bad, I'm wrong. Right, there's like sort of an automatic thing that takes place in your brain. It's so well traveled at this point that a stimuli like a comment on your Instagram or an article takes you all the way to that really bad place without thought. It almost happens involuntarily, and all of a sudden you're

in this anxious, depressed place. And so we want to get to the point where we build muscle to interrupt that well traveled neural pathway that like stimulus boom, we're all the way to like I'm not worthy, I'm not Okay, I'm not deserving. This is going to be my life forever, and so doing a version of um when you read that comment, when you see that article, or I'm taking it outside of your context, when uh, someone's excluded at school, etcetera.

Right noticing if you go all the way there, if you're about to go all the way to there, to sort of say like stop, like literally, I'd like to recommend like picturing like a red stops. I'm like, stop stop. I'm not going to allow myself to go all the way there. I'm gonna interrupt with another dialogue, with another narrative.

I'm not saying that this other dialogue or other narrative will magically change everything in that moment, but what it does do is it reduces the hold of that neural pathway to go all the way from the stimuli to the really bad, awful thought that we feel like we can't get out of. It reduces the hole that it had that our brain has on us, so that over time, little by little, we start chipping away that automatic process that always leaves us in the same hopeless, helpless space.

So being able in your examples that interrupt and go like wait a minute, Like I I've decided to to think about this differently. I've decided that I'm human being that has a chance. I'm not going to make that that evaluation, that assessment about myself in this moment. I'm not going to take it all the way there. I'm just gonna say, like, that's painful, that hurts, kind of

gonna leave it there. For example, it's just a way of interrupting that process that brings us all the way to that conclusion without even recognizing it, and all of a sudden, we're in a bad space. We have a lot of bad negative self talk, and we kind of don't even know how or why. And so instead pulling back and focusing on the feeling this felt really hurtful, This felt really out of control, This felt really upsetting,

This felt really anxiety provoking. Right, the feeling that came up in reading that article or reading that circumstance, we are reading that comment rather than going all the way to that conclusion about yourself. Um yeah, I think that's amazing advice for I mean, who is E really listening to this? No matter how old you are, I think there's something really valuable in that um lesson in general.

So I think let's end on that positive note and a huge, huge thank you too for coming on Conversations today and spitting all your wisdom and I'm sure helping so many people because I know through social media, especially especially with my generation, we all struggle with this to a certain degree. So it was an honor to have you. And yeah, just thank you for your service and your work and helping others and keeping people's mentals and check because I know it is so important. So you're very

very appreciated. Well, thank you for being so candid and vulnerable. I really appreciate it. Thank you so so much. I am so excited we did it. My first podcast checked off the list. I am really looking forward to the future podcast. I'm going to have so many different guests from some celebrities you know, to friends, to mentors to experts in certain us to help us through life in general.

So thank you guys so much for listening, and please make sure to tweet me, DM me, just contact me through social media so I can hear what else you guys want to see on this podcast and what you guys want to listen to. And I just want to make this a safe space. For everybody, so cheers to the first one being done and too many more amazing recordings