Conversations with... Part 2

Dr Hillary Gulture. She is here, and I really want to talk about how to set us up for success in the new year, talk about stress trauma. She specializes in trauma with relationships, and I get a ton of questions like that on my Instagram and TikTok and YouTube comments. So I thought you would be great, kind of the perfect person to ring in the new year with and give us some advice because I know I could use it. I'm sure some of you guys could use it. So

with that being said, please welcome Dr Hillary. Hello, Dr Gulture, Welcome back to the podcast. Hi Olivia, thanks for having me. Thank you so much for coming back on. I know that she was on my first episode. If you guys didn't listen. It was a really great episode, I think, not just for me, but the response was amazing. And I kind of said in the beginning, like, you know, if you guys are into this and you like it, then we'll have her back. And the response was great,

So here we are again. Thanks for having of course, and it's perfect timing. I feel like because of the New year, this will be we're filming this a few days before New Year's Eve, but this will be up beginning of January, and I feel like a lot of people, um, you know, could just use some good practices or something to help them ring in the new year in a

more positive light. Obviously, the last few years for everybody has been quite the challenge, and with COVID and now it's spiking again like crazy, and all the new strains I think caused so much stress for so many people, and and on top of that, I guess I'll just kind of lay it out. I want to talk to you about kind of just kicking off the new year right and starting the episode with practices that maybe you

use or that you tell your clients are hopeful. And then I also did a little Q and A on Instagram, and we got flooded with questions and a lot of them are similar to one another, so I definitely wanna answer some of those and talk about that. But I guess just to start off, maybe give a little background on who you are if you guys missed the first episode she was in, and how we can kind of start the new year with some success. Yeah. So I'm Dr Hillary Culture as you introduced me, and I'm a

clinical psychologist. I normally say in Beverly Hills after that, but now I work out of my home because of COVID. I specialized in anxiety, depression, trauma, and couples as well, and you can also find me on Instagram at Dr Hillary l A. And I love this question and might give an answer that feels a little bit paradoxical, but

but hear me out. I think the way for all of us to start the new year outright, ironically, is to be really in touch with our full range of feelings and not to seek to suppress feelings that are scary or difficult or uncomfortable or vulnerable, but really lean into the totality of sort of where we're at and who we are, and that force ourselves to be in a place that we're not, because doing that creates a lot of dissonance, cognitive dissonance between like how we're feeling

and where we actually are and where we think that we should be. We don't want to exile parts of us that are having a tricky time, that are having

a messy set of feelings. And so going into the new year, I would just really encourage everyone to mobilize kind of the full sense of who they are, the parts of them that are feeling like hopeful and free and um and full and expand said in the parts them that are feeling afraid and vulnerable, because it's really only when we sit in and our full robust set of feelings that were kind of truly who we are. Yeah,

what if? What would you tell somebody if they're like primary feelings or just what they feel the most are negative thoughts? And because I feel like but that I've been there too, I can totally relate to somebody feeling that way. But it's hard, at least for me personally to focus on my full feelings and every single part of me when I feel like the negative is just

clouding my head. Yes, yes, that's such a good follow up question, because there are things that we can do to interrupt the sort of marinating and difficult, tricky feelings to help ourselves, and I think it's really important to do so when we're struggling. Compartmentalization and guiding ourselves to do things that lift us as a really important part of healing, as well as sitting in the original feelings

that we were just talking about. So some of the tools that I use and recommend with my clients were really struggling and like you said, are really sitting in a full sense of anxiety or loneliness or depression or isolation.

Is to find waste for respite, and so that respite might look like meditation, getting into with our breath, really sitting with ourselves to just calm our body, finding ways, uh to connect with friends or family members who feel soothing and supportive and don't require you to be anywhere that you're not, and absolutely finding professional support if that isn't something with which you're already engaged at The feelings are really invasive and really consuming and really overwhelming in

these sort of ways that I'm pretty briefly talking about. But these ways and self soothing um and inviting kind of calm and respite into your life, are giving you any relief, that's a sign, that's that's important for us to note and to bring in some professional resources in that case. Yeah, Hey, guys and Ashley from the Almost Famous podcast, it's that time of year where rama fills the air. The Bachelor is back with an all new season premiering January three. There's a new host, Jesse Palmer,

and a brand new Bachelor, Clayton. Clayton is a Midwest boy that has that great smile, nice teeth, and he's really tall. Ash Let's call it what it is. He's a beefcake. Okay. Well, Clayton seems to be a good guy though, and he can't wait to find love, get married, and have kids. And he believes more than anything that his future wife is on this show. It sounds like a fairy tale but also a bit of an emotional world coaster, because Clayton tells three different women he's falling

in love with him. Technically, he told one, I couldn't be more sure that I'm falling in love with you, and another one I'm falling in love with you, and the third one I am in love with you. You don't miss a thing. It's some years of over analyzing everything that guys say. But his heart is in the

right place. But other parts of him as we find out what he admits to two different women that he was intimate with both of them, Yeah, I don't think it's gonna go over Well, we'll be breaking down it all on the famous podcast Ben is Married Now Well Ashley's a mom will change our opinions of what we think is acceptable single behavior. Good question find out on the almost famous podcast on iHeart Radio and wherever you

listen to podcasts. I got a lot of questions to asking like how do I know if I need therapy? Or how do I find a lot of people asked I've tried therapy and I feel like I can't find a therapist that works for me. Or how do I how do I know if I need it? And then if I do need it, how do I find somebody that I genuinely can connect with and that I can vent to and that I can trust? And what do you tell somebody I was wondering Those are such a

good questions. So one of the um non clinical, non technical sort of ways that I like to think about whether or not someone should consider pursuing therapy. Is the phrase like more often than not, more often than not, so more often than not my feeling sad Am I feeling anxious? Am I feeling frustrated? And I feeling isolated? Am I not feeling okay? More often than not? Is

not really an acceptable standard for us. We want more often than not that you feel okay or content or satisfied or hopeful, and so like I I sort of said, not not a clinical gauge, but an important one in terms of, like what your life this really feels like.

And then a more clinical way to think about it is, to what extent are difficult feelings, difficult relationships, difficult circumstances, difficult episodes kind of interrupting your ability to function in primary areas of your life, whether that be academically, professionally, um socially, in relationships, ETCeteras. If thoughts and feelings, behaviors, actions are invading your space, your ability to think, and how you move through the world, that's absolutely a time

to think about seeking professional services. Yeah. I really like that phrase more often than not, because I think that is a really good gauge for somebody like do. I feel this way way too often and way too much, to the point where it's actually like getting in the way of my life. And I think also with me when I first started therapy. I started a few years ago when things went sideways, um in my family and with the college scandal, and I just needed somebody to

talk to. And I would I mean, if you have the resource and you can, I would really recommend it. And obviously that's why I want to do episodes like this for people that can't access therapy, you know, That's why I want to go in and do the Q and A and ask what I mean, ask you what

the personal questions some fans have. But I also feel like for me when I first started, it was it was isn't normal to almost feel frustrated by not by therapy, but maybe by like the process Because for me, like I first started, I wanted it to be good and everything to be healed and all this to work like

overnight or within a week span. And I feel like that's it's been years and I'm still dealing with things, and I still have so many questions for you and for my personal therapist that, um, would you say it's normal? It takes a lot of time, and you have to be patient with yourself, not just normal, but really engage that therapy is working. Frankly, is the idea that it

gets a lot harder before it gets easier. From most people who are seeking therapy, they go at a tipping point right where more often than not they're struggling and feeling away in their lives that they don't want to and in order to uncover how and why that's happening, we have to look at typically some pretty difficult issues and it brings up more difficult feelings and a greater sense of feeling kind of out of control and messy,

and maybe maybe even increased feelings of hopelessness or helplessness. But it's that very process sort of really looking at where we are and what's ailing us and the origins of those pains, whether they are from our early childhood, whether they're from current relationships, current social relationships, or professional lives, etcetera.

You know, an intersection of all the above. Looking at that can be really painful, really herful, disoriented, really unsettling, But it is in that process that we face those truths and that we begin to mobilize kind of our internal resources of like, who do I want to be in the face of these wounds, in the face of these pains, and how do I start finding my way back?

And to address kind of the back half of what you were saying, I often say this to my clients that many of us have what I like to call kind of core wounds, like a core wound that we identify as our our primary struggle. We don't feel good enough, or we don't feel seeing, we don't feel validated, um, we struggle with imperfection. We don't all have the same court wound, but we all have kind of a core wound that we often struggle with throughout our journey in life.

Does it get better with therapy and the support of loved ones and our individual real growth of yes, yes, yes, But oftentimes we return back to that scene during times of dress and times of stress, during times of trauma. The intensity and duration of how it impacts us changes, But like that core issue reveals itself kind of over

and over again. And I say this to normalize a lot of people's truths that they're like, oh, it's always comes up for me, you know, I always struggle nothing good enough, and it's well unpleasant, It's okay that that's true. And the more that we don't try to exile those parts of us and we lean into them, and we lean into, as I was saying before, kind of who we want to be in the face of these core struggles,

the stronger we become over time. Right, What if you're I think for me, I can speak personally, but I know I got questions like this too. If you're in a position where you feel so fortunate or so lucky that you almost feel guilty for having these negative thoughts or feelings, and you're like, well, somebody else has it so much worse than I do. Why am I sitting here complaining about my life when you know, on paper or to somebody else might look or seem really good

or it is really good compared to most. I would say, especially for me, like the world, I have it so so easy in a sense where it's like I almost feel guilty talking about it. And I even remember in the first episode we did together, like I would I told you, I feel I feel nervous to talk about these types of things and be so open because I don't want to offend anybody. I don't want somebody to

take it like, oh, she's complaining. But then at the same time, I also have to cut myself a little slack, and you know, admit that I am a human and I have these feelings and certain things do bother me or you know, drive my anxiety up a little bit. And so I saw some other people also kind of relating to that and just saying, I feel kind of terrible and I have these feelings, but you know, my neighbor or somebody I love or somebody I just met has it so much worse. Am I allowed to feel

this way? Yeah? My sort of um uh paradigm around that is the notion that things not only should coexist, but they must co exist. That two things can be true at the same time, and that doesn't mean they aren't hard to hold next to each other, but difficult, conflicting things must co exist. They do coexist. And that sort of kind of a macro response to this very

specific issue that you're raising. Being a human being always means that people have struggle and face difficult things, and if we suppress it or don't allow ourselves to look at it or face it, we're looking at compromising kind of our internal self and our internal resources, and we don't want to do that to ourselves. So the idea that both things can be true, that you can be someone who recognizes your your privilege in all sorts of ways and holds that with you as you simultaneously look

at things that ail you. And I certainly understand and want to deeply acknowledge the uh action that it might cause another people to hear someone of privilege talk about their struggles. There is, um the hierarchy of privilege, both financially and socially, is a real thing in our country, and um it is. It is not a division that is equal, and there are a lot of people that

struggle because of that. And that's just the truth that we want to honor and and lean into and regularly acknowledge and at the same time allowing ourselves to say, like, yeah, I'm struggling with my own anxiety, my own vulnerability, my own depression, And only in the deep acknowledging of our own personal truth can we really be of service not

only to ourselves, but of other people. So it's just an equation that that that has to be like filled, meaning that in order for you to you individually to rise to your own full potential. You have to take on your struggles and your ailments too. It's just it's just like a necessary truth that like an edict that you have. I think that's kind of a perfect way. Because I have some like podcast reviews, and there's some

negative ones. Obviously, I'm so grateful for the positive. And I feel like even when I started YouTube, like pre college scandal, pre being in the media so much, I felt like I always promised myself, you know, you're going to focus on the positive and we're going to try and stay away from the negative, just for like my

own mental sanity. But given the episode, I definitely want to like highlight some of this just for your advice, and also because I do think that if you know, I want people to relate to this and get something out of it, I too have to be vulnerable and open for that to happen. So we kind of wrote down a little list of some reviews and questions to follow. So I'm just going to read the first one, and

I hope I don't get triggered. Um, but it says, so this was one review I had from the podcast, and it says, try to give a listen despite her sketchy past, but this podcast is objectively terrible. She sounds flat and it seems obvious that she's just reading questions somebody else wrote. There really isn't dialogue, but more like the show intends to show a predetermined narrative in a fake Q and A format. It reminds me of those long commercials on YouTube made to look like a news

report or educational video, except even more boring. If this wasn't meant to be a vehicle for her, it wouldn't exist and we'd be better for it. And then, um, I guess, like obviously, it's it's hard when I read stuff like that because a I think I'm numb to it and I'm used to it at this point where it doesn't maybe affect me as harshly as it might affect somebody else reading a negative review or response or somebody's opinion like that. But what is the right way

to react to a comment like that? Or what does one do? Because I can sit here and say, you know, I'm used to it and it doesn't bother me, but

I'm human. There's a part of me that reads that and I'm like ouch, yeah, yeah, I think, actually, what you just said your last sentence is probably a place to begin, which is that who who amongst us, whatever your status, whatever your level of privilege, who amongst us would not hear negative personal feedback about our work or our passions and not feel something about it, not fell hurt, not feel upset, not question yourself? Right who amongst us?

And so I think carving out of space, like a real space, an authentic, true space to just sort of say, like exactly what you just said was like, Oh, that hurts, like it hurts, and maybe I'll never get to a place where it doesn't penetrate me a little bit. I'll never get to a place where I don't want to be pleasing to everyone. I'll never get to a place where it doesn't hurt that everyone can't lean and or at least be kind. Um you know in their assessment

that that hurts. And I think allowing for that space is really important because, as you've alluded to, you are human with real feelings and care about what other people think of you. And I think at the same time, this idea of holding um uh, the the side by side narrative of like alongside that that you're grateful for your platform and for what you do and for the

support that you do receive to kind of counterbalance. And I know you get a lot of support as well, so that can help lift you, and you deserve to be lifted in the face of of of sort of negative personal opinions. But I think the most important thing is to allow yourself space to go like, yeah, it hurts, I'm I'm human, and to claim that that it's it's okay to say out loud to yourself and to your

listeners that like that hurts. I'm. I'm not really asking for anything in return, but I'm just letting you know that my experience when I read something like this is that it hurts, and that's my true yeah totally, because I also feel like for me personally, I'm just so the type of person and I think everybody is like this to a certain degree, but I swear I've been like cursed with it where I feel like I need everybody to like me, and I want everybody to like me,

and if you don't like me, then I'll spend hours, all hours talking to you and letting you get to know me and hopefully I'll change your opinion. But I'm like so hyper sensitive and hyper focused on getting people's approval that it's very interesting that I chose this career path at such a young age because that's always been

just a part of who I am. So with comments like that, it can be difficult, difficult because a part of me wants to take every single comment that's in that range and just be like, wait, this isn't true, or I'll show you this about me, and and it's just like it's almost exhausting trying to like prove yourself. But there's also a part of me that, like my brain won't forget it or let it go until I'm like okay, like now they get me, now they understand

who I am. And I really want to work on that because I mean, chances are of everybody liking you on the planet is so slim and it's so impossible. And I know that it's even more important, like the people that are actually in your life and know you, those are the ones that you want to have a good relationship with and treat with respect and have those mutual benefits in a relationship. But it is really hard

even when it does come from a stranger. Well, and it's possible, like I was alluding to a few moments ago that that is is one of our your core wound. You know, this idea that you have to sort of um elicit the affection or approval of everyone, and when that doesn't happen, that it collapses you to a certain extent.

And I often talk about this concept and in therapy with my individual clients, and it applies to someone kind of in your position and to someone who's not in the public eye, which is the idea that we can go through life never disappointing somebody else is is fiction

and really damaging, right. It just is um part of being human and in relationships with others that we're gonna do things that are disappointing, offensive, not understood, not validated, not accepted because we all have our own stuff going on.

We're all triggered and impacted by different stimulus and different experience is and so that idea that e X that I can go through life gaining everyone's approval not discapplining everyone is as you said, exhausting and can really change who we are and how we move through the world. So I'm sure it's something you're working on and your something to keep thinking about because that um that that sort of primitive pull can kind of change how we

show up in the world. That can lose a bit of ourselves each time um that kind of feed that comes in, we lose a bit of ourselves to that moment that person in the service of trying to change other people's opinions about us. It's really important to accept that, Like, sometimes I'm not going to land on other people in spite of my best intentions. Right, do you think I mean, I don't know if beneficial is the right word, but do you think it's beneficial to read the negative comments?

Or would you say to somebody, not even just as a somebody who's public on social media, but even in somebody's private life. That's whether it's feeding into the negative commentary uh faced face, or if it's you know, through social media or through zoom, through class like whatever it might be. Is it is there any benefit to like reading somebody else's opinion, even if it is negative. It's a really good question, and I think the answer is

probably in the Unkno, But I want to clarify. I think it's really important to build a muscle to have dialogue or conversations with people in your life who know you,

who have been interacted by you personally. To be able to sit down with someone who says like I didn't like what just happened back there, I didn't like the way that you talked to me, or I didn't like what you had to say about their it really is in conflict with a core belief of mine, meaning having dialogue with people who are giving you difficult feedback, who are actually in your life is a really critical skill to having healthy, strong relationships, whether they're romantic or friendships

or with their families. So I don't want my answer to suggest that giving kind of negative quote negative feedback or critical feedback is I like to think about it is something that we shouldn't do as human beings in relationship with each other. We should That's how we grow stronger, that's how we work through things, that's how we get

more intimate. But in the context that we're talking about even lots of people who don't know you, or others right who are providing this kind of feedback on a quote smaller scale or something, or or through social media, I think at some point it's important to say to ourselves like this, this isn't a useful dialogue in which I can discern some important information about myself and I can use it to make someone else feel better or

improve how we move through the world. This is something else which is oftentimes kind of like hmm, someone blowing off steam or a bit mean spirited, or or just not about the person to whom it's targeted. So a long way to say that, I do think at some point in your case, in particular, if there's information about like your work that you think would be useful, like oh, they're working through the podcast, or engage my viewers or listeners more, great, cool, that might be interest thing to

to interact with. But if it's just kind of personal stuff that is um more on the one sided sort of dump of negative energy, and I'm not sure that

it makes sense to listen to it. It can't really be impacted by you by you simply reading it right, And I feel like for me personally, I always try and find ever since I was younger too, because I started my YouTube channel when I was fourteen, so I was really young, very impressionable, but I would always even then, I mean just the Internet in general, you're always going to have people that like what you do and you're always gonna have people that maybe don't relate, or don't

really like it, or just you know, they want to let you know that they don't like it. But within that sometimes when I was younger, I would try and find the constructive criticism, even if it was said in a negative way. And I feel like, kind of to answer my own question, I guess or um, if somebody else can relate, I guess it would just be like for me, I think the best way to go about it, at least for my mental health. And what I found

is the healthiest is to maybe not engage. Well, just don't engage in general is my number one rule of them, but not to engage personally, to like in my own head and really let that comment like consume my day or my week, and if there is something constructive within it, then maybe take from that and try and grow from it. But I think if it is just like a general negative comment that you know isn't benefiting you, and you kind of know that in your gut, it's probably best

to try and focus on something a little bit more positive. Um. So with that being said, I guess we'll read I guess I'll read one more negative. There are positives on here too, but I think the negatives are probably more beneficial for everybody. And then, um, I definitely want to jump into some of the questions that some of the audience has, but will end on this. It says, what has she done to work hard? Ever, she's Laurie's daughter basically,

but so is Bella. Bella is my older sister. Um. But this comment is something I definitely hear a lot. And I also want to acknowledge that I I am super aware that I've been given opportunities, um because of my parents, and I know that I live a very blessed and fortunate and privileged life. But then there's also a part of me that feels it's tricky because it's it's it's hard to speak on because I know that, you know, to the average human, I have it easy.

I know that to myself as well, But there is something to be said for you know, there's a big misconception about me. I feel like, at least personally, where I get that comment of you don't work hard, and it's like I didn't have to start my YouTube when I was fourteen. I did put in a lot of work, and I there's always rumors floating around you know about my my grade. She clearly didn't work hard. You must

have failed school. And I don't even think I've ever said this publicly, but um, in high school, I I had straight a's and I worked really hard at school. And it's just like about like debunking these like rumors, I guess are just these thoughts that people rightfully have,

because I totally understand. But it is also like, is it worth even trying to clear that up for your own mental sanity or for mine in this situation or at this point do you just kind of go with the mindset of like I know what I know, and I can't let somebody else's opinion, you know, even if

it's false get in my head to a certain degree. Yeah, I think both of those can be true together, meaning that it probably makes sense in this moment for you to clarify like, hey, I actually took school really seriously. It happened to have strings in the high school, right that that that happens to be an important value of mine. And here's some evidence you know that that sort of backs that up, that that it's okay to state truth about yourself. But in general, whether you're a public figure

or not. I think when you have people that um aren't believing in you or aren't leaning into um uh, important notions about yourself that you're trying to share, and it gets a little hairy when there are people that don't know you, but nonetheless right that my sort of my sort of notion around this is to state our truth once, right, you know, to stay our truth once. And in your situation, you're in public and private, and

so it makes it a little more complicated. But to state our truths once and then move on in the knowingness that you alluded to, right, You know that maybe it is important for you, in this moment, at this particular season in your life, to put out there more publicly that like, actually, for example, education does matter to me and did matter to here's kind of how that's

played out. And then to move on in that knowingness that you don't have to carry it around waving a flag, right, And that's where you lean into kind of your internal truth. So I think kind of both things can be true.

That there's seasons or moments in our life when we feel like I need to say this, it matters to me to say it and we become less invested in what the feedback and responses to stating our truth, but more invested in like this is a moment where I say it kind of for me because it's my truth and it feels like it's it's it's not out there enough in a way that aligns with what I know about myself. And then I move on with a quiet

or understanding of those things about myself. Right, I do want to get into these questions and just jump right into them. And one that I saw was a really really really common theme was a about holiday time and just you know, being back with family and how to deal with somebody in your life if they have a

narcissism disorder or if they're bipolar or um. Basically just that was kind of like the tree branch question of how do I deal with that and how do I let them know they make me feel a certain way because every time I talk about it, I feel invalidated. I feel like we go back to square one. I don't know how to push forward. I don't even know how to coexist with this person or have a good relationship. And it's my mom for example, or wait, let me

clear that up. I'm not talking about myself personally, and I'm not talking about my own mother. I don't want

that to get twisted. But that was like a common theme of a question or a boyfriend or an ex boyfriend or whatever it is um And I feel like that also kind of went hand in hand with a lot of questions about trauma because I know people um or at least in my experiences of dealing with somebody with narcissism, is that it can create smaller traumas that like kind of later arise without you really realizing it. What would you say or what's the best advice to

go about that? Yeah, there's there's a lot there, So I would say my answer is is twofold. I think it's it's really key to think upfront, although we're kind of in the middle or just post holidays, about boundaries, right that in the face of people around us that are toxic or potentially damaging that A it's really important to have kind of a quote safety plan in mind.

And I know that this can be tricky when we're talking about mothers or fathers, or brothers or sisters who are in the same house which we're staying for the holidays, right, So, um, we may not be able to always leave or to come back the next day with a clearer mind, but having some ideas about how to set boundaries in the moment and to keep ourselves safe. So what do I mean? So you have um critical mother who is saying things to you that are are really hurtful and damaging, and

you are kind of stuck in your family home. So being able to state your truth what's happening right now it feels really hurtful. I feel like I shouldn't stay in this moment with you because it's starting to feel

really triggering. I'm going to go upstairs and just take a little break, right So being able to just state our truth in a moment, not having to elicit agreement from the other party that we're right and they're wrong necessarily because that usually ends in, uh, it not being very satisfying to either party, but to kind of own that, like this didn't feel good, or what you said back there didn't feel good. Are you available to like kind

of hear about it. And if they're not um and arguing with you or gas lighting you or making you feel not validated, to sort of say some version of like it looks like we're not going to be aligned here or really understand each other. I'm just gonna take some time upstairs. I'm gonna go for a walk, I'm gon go for a drive, and just kind of setting myself I'll be back. So it's kind of a two pronged like setting a boundary and having a safety plan, even if it means, you know, going to the bathroom

for ten minutes and doing some deep breathing. We often get stuck in the cycle of trying to change someone in the moment of trying to get them to understand how it is they made us feel, or to show up differently, or to admit wrongdoing. We all get in that moment, and it's very painful to walk away from a moment like that without that validation that like, wow, I hurt you. I didn't you know that, I'm so sorry that, and so as we have to let go

of that in the service of protecting ourselves. And so if we find that we can't engage a person in conversation that like, hey, that hurt can we talk about that? That we sort of say, like, this is how I fount in this moment, and to kind of take care

of myself on the step away for a bit. It's not going to feel amazing, it's not going to feel perfect, but it's a way to begin to build kind of self soothing and self protective skills that we need in the face of toxic people who aren't available for change. That's really interesting. So you would say, like the main thing would maybe be if you can try and get a little space for both parties to clear heads and

then hopefully come together at a certain point. Or do you kind of just forget about the forget about the issue at hand in general, if you feel like if it's just like a you know, just a never ending cycle of you guys just saying the same thing back and forth, I think if it's the ladder to kind of start where you ended, if you find you've engaged in a version of this conversation over and over again, and you've done it in a way that's digestible, meaning

instead of being like you're so mean, I can't believe you saying like you know, when you say that, that really hurts me. It really makes me feel not seeing or not loved. I just want to let you know that. Can we chat about it and see if there's a

way for you to say that differently to me. Like if we've said our piece of the way that's digestible and doesn't kind of promote defensiveness, and we keep getting the same response defensiveness or a lack of response, your understanding, your empathy, etcetera, then yes, I think at that point we're taking we're we're kind of trying to minimize the collateral damage and saying, Okay, there's not really anything for me to get here in terms of additional understanding or

validation around this issue. So I'm gonna protect myself. I'm going to minimize my time. I'm gonna walk away if there's a moment that doesn't feel good, but I'm still gonna say, you know that doesn't feel good back there, I'm gonna I'm gonna go take a moment for myself and UM, while that might not elicit the validation we so desperately wanted, at least starts to build a sense of um self regulation and a kind of self advocacy that we're someone that can walk away from something that's

hurtful or toxic and take care of ourselves. Yeah, totally, that can feel good in the face of a toxic relationship. Obviously what feels best is a person understanding and trying to heal with you. But in that which is often the case, by definition, being able to take care of ourselves is kind of like, well, it's ultimately the best thing, but the next best thing in the context that is

just describing. Yeah, totally I relate to that too, And I feel like even in personal situations I've been in, you know, you can only control your half of things, and so it is every time I've ever been in a situation with somebody that maybe isn't the most healthy person to have in my life, I feel like if I do control my side of things and I say what I feel like I needed to say, like you're kind of saying in a way that's digestible and it's and it's and it makes sense for me, then I

always walk away even if I didn't get that validation, like you're talking about that maybe somebody needs you do walk away feeling better than engaging in a huge blowout fight for sure, even though it's difficult. Regardless, Yes, yeah,

that is one of the things. One of the issues, um, one of the kind of set of coping behaviors that I talk often about in with my individual clients is the idea that often times we're surrounded by people that can't give us what we need or that are toxic or not good for us, and we find that we

can't change how they respond to us. But there's something that feels very grounding about the way that we feel good about, very grounding and ultimately very healing, because really it's our internal resources UM which we have to ultimately rely and and so that is really the building block of a of a much stronger emotional and mental foundation.

And even though we want to deeply acknowledge like it hurts if if our mother doesn't see that she's criticizing us, you know, boyfriend is disrespecting us in ways that he can't But that doesn't take away that pain, but it begins to help us feel more grounded and to make some better choices for ourselves or in terms of the relationships that we want to be in. And I wish that obviously we could go through and answer all these questions.

So I do kind of want to end on another note that was UM very much highlighted in this Q and A. And I think a lot of people honestly because I learned about this recently within the year. But can you talk about because I kind of think it goes in theme with this last question of what exactly is a trauma bond for somebody that doesn't know? And then how can that relate to, you know, somebody in your life that you're close to um with you know,

maybe in narcissism disorder something along those lines. Uh so maybe, yeah, we can do it in two parts of like what is a trauma bond? How do you know if you have a trauma bond with somebody? And then how do you get kind of away from that? Yeah? Yeah, So, um, when I talk about trauma bonds, I like to also bring in this notion which I think can help um illuminate it, which is the idea of in psychology, we

call it like a wounded kids collusion. Wounded collusion, So the idea that two people who are wounded come together and verbally or non verbally clue to like become codependent on each other to move through the world in a way together that feels protective and healing and safe, but ultimately is a bit toxic and kind of um captures the trauma in like a bubble and keeps everyone that

kind of stuck and paralyzed in it. And um to take it a bit out of like the more clinical terms and what it looks like in like a day to day basis or in a particular relationship is to people who are um you know, who have had a shared experience in terms of a of a core wound in terms of a trauma, whether it's sexual abuse or having a tendency to choose unavailable men emotionally, whether uh, two people who have parents who both divorced, who have

been the victims of crime. To people who've been through difficult things and this is not to be the same difficult thing, but difficult things that have compromised kind of how they see the world, how they move through the world, the relationships that they choose and together sort of um are impacted by that trauma in a way that keeps them close and oftentimes keep them kind of codependent on

each other. Interesting, and is there a way to break that or like, if you're in a situation like that, do you know at the forefront of your head, like this is a toxic is there like that gut feeling where you're like Okay, I'm really dependent, but I kind of know deep down that this isn't healthy. Or do some people go through life or periods of time having this trauma bond and you really don't know trauma bond I think, particularly initially, but throughout the course of the

connection can feel almost like high. It can feel seductive and really compelling, and so I think oftentimes people, um, I'm like using air quotes right now, but like don't know or don't want to know, because it's so compelling they want to stay in it. It feels protect it feels enlivening, it feels less isolating, and it fills up the holes and the emptiness that the original trauma has caused.

I think oftentimes when people start to unravel a trauma bond, they often recognize, either in retrospect or had just been in some sort of original denial that like, something about this particular relationship and how it moved through the world together didn't feel quite right, Like there was some intuition that like this feels a little too relevant to me, This feels a little too important, this feels a little too central to me to feel right or healthy. I

need it a little too much. Whatever the right words are, right, but oftentimes we go in and out of understanding that or acknowledging that, or like believing our intuition around it. So it's kind of a long way to answer your question. But I think oftentimes we we do know of what, we suppress that knowledge because it's it's like a salve to the wornd. It's having a like a hit of a drug or like a bunch of drinks. It feels okay for a period of time. So that's really interesting. Yeah,

I relate to that for sure. Um, I guess just to wrap it up, how would I guess we kind of talked about this at the beginning, but I want to give like a clear answer to somebody maybe that isn't living their life to the fullest. And now we're

going into the new year. I hope that everybody has a better year than if you struggled or for that matter, But how can you set yourself up for success in the new year besides maybe just listening and validating your emotions and understanding that, like it's okay to be at rock bottom and it's okay to hurt and to feel these negative feelings. But is there something that, or is there a trick or besides, like maybe you're classic like

meditation or something that you hear often. Is there something that you specifically have found, um is helpful, or something you tell your clients in order to set themselves up for success and just to attempt to feel happiness because we are only given one life and I know probably

everybody wants to feel that a little bit. Yeah, yeah, you know, you've made me think of something that I wouldn't have thought had you not asked it that way, because I think in general, people in my line of work always answer a question like this was some mix of like, right, you have to lean into the reality of like what you're feeling, and you have to you know, sort of mobilize and facilitate as as many moments as

possible of feeling connection and joy. But to someone really suffering and really stuck, all that can feel a little bit like dim and hard to lean into. So I have a thought that might be a little more practical, which is that oftentimes I say to my clients who are really struggling and really finding it difficult to like

make in rows into feeling again, into feeling better. It's to kind of like make a plan to set aside, like if if you're struggling to connect, if you're struggling to even get yourself to meditate, to read a book, to go for a walk, to do something that would be mobilizing resources that could be beneficial to you. To kind of tell yourself to do five minutes five minutes. So it's five minutes of like I'm gonna do five

minutes of deep breathing. I'm gonna do five minutes of a phone call to someone because I usually feel better after I connect. I'm gonna do five minutes of cleaning my bedroom. That's all I can do. I'm gonna do

five minutes of cleaning out my emails. I'm gonna do five minutes of that work that I was piling out that I just haven't been able to do right, And they sat like a timer five minutes on your phone and egg time or whatever it is, five minutes to do something that you've been wanting to do or that you know that's good for you. And when that five minutes goes off, go back to what you were doing before to self soothe. And then the next day maybe you can do seven minutes. And then the next day,

maybe it's nine. Then the next day maybe it's ten, etcetera. And people have reported really finding something soothing in the idea of having their energy contained and um not feeling so overwhelmed and vulnerable at the idea of leaning into resources or activities or behavior that might be beneficial because there's this endless struggle of life. Well, I don't feel good. How am I supposed to do to things that are

supposed to make me feel good? Maybe this is a bit of a trick um to to bridge that gap when someone's really struggling. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's starting with the small things, even though it can be difficult. It definitely I think helps in the grand scheme of life into living your life to the fullest and trying to get the most benefits out of this lifetime because it is so shure and it is so

easy to focus on those negatives. So I definitely will use that for myself for sure, and I'm I'm sure so many other people will also benefit from that advice. So guys, you heard it here first five minutes, just try it. Thank you so much for coming on again, and you know, giving advice and your wisdom. It's so helpful, not just to me, but I know so many young girls had great feedback on the first episode, and that's

like everything to me. If it if it makes one person's day or it helps literal really just one person out of a funk or something, or they've benefited or learned something from this that maybe they don't have access to a therapist or somebody that they can talk to and get this um you know, licensed practiced advice. I think that this is really really helpful. So thank you so much. I'm so happy to be a part of it. Thanks and we have a million more questions, which means

episode three will have to happen. I'm there for it perfect. Thank you so much. Happy New Year than you and stay healthy. Okay you too, Okay bye, thank you