RACHEL CUSK ON PARADE

Des gens comme il faut. beau premier roman de la vie Fleur et leurs parents respectent toutes les choses. Fleur décide. les affaires de son père après sa mort. Florence Châtaignier nous entraîne au cœur d'une... Des gens comme il faut et disponible Cherche MIDI Editor.

Je suis Frédéric Becbédé. Pour son nouveau réseau,

Good evening, Rachel Kusk. Thank you very much for being our guest tonight at La Perouse. It's a very big honor. huge star all over the world translated since 30 years everywhere and your works are very very important and very sensible. Uh you were born in Canada but uh you uh spent your life in Great Britain, right? So do you think you are Canadian or English? I'm trying to become French. Ah oui Alors c'est important vous parlez très bien France.

La nationalité, je n'aime pas les nationalités, um mais And uh quitting Angleterre You can answer in English if it's easier for you. Okay. Um on the surface, uh because of Brexit. Lida quittel Europe. Uh I didn't want to leave Europe. So you came back to Europe? Yeah. And we didn't know what we didn't know anything really ab about what would um happen to us here. Once we'd arrived I I understood something huge, which was that that actually I had arrived in England.

at a certain point in my childhood. And and that this leaving of England was the the end of that arrival. And it made the whole time of that life in England seem almost like a Um so really the leaving of England was far more significant than but I think because I had I had arrived there in the first place. But also when you write in English because you write in English isn't it Strange to live in a country where

The m vast majority of the people don't speak English. And and so that maybe that's why you learned French. I really learned French uh my French wasn't very good when we came here and I learned it by reading. Um It's all I have done for three years is read French literature in French. And that has radically changed my English because um you know, you you enter the threshold of a novel. Um you look for your

security, what you're gonna hold on to and if it's in another language you're in a little boat out in the sea, so you d you don't have very much to hold on to. And so it it really became apparent to me what what writers do in sentences uh create or to deny safety and clarity. And because I was depending on that. it it was something I felt incredibly deeply and I began to see how that might be the case for me in my writing that perhaps without thinking about it

I obscured things rather than clarifying them. So you think French is more clear than English? No, certain it it's some French writers are clearer than other French writers. And so that difference Really, really struck me.

Il est influencé par la littérature française, j'ai l'impression, très fortement. Vous citez d'ailleurs l'étranger de Camus. Un petit peu, oui. Ah oui, comme oui. Mais ma traductrice m'a dit après elle avait fait le... the tribe for blondine longer. Exactly. It is excellent. And she didn't it's facility or not. And I did It's very facilitating and difficult to compromise.

But it's a question that I've enjoyed to pose on the traduction, because when we are franc now, you have done collaboration at the traduction, we have aided the traductrice, we have listened with it. Pour tout vérifier. Ah oui, c'est très bien. Alors Daniel Mendelssohn, le grand écrivain, a dit de ce livre, parade, que c'est un chef-d'œuvre. C'est vrai que vous aboutissez à quelque chose avec ce livre qui raconte la vie de quatre artistes qui s'appellent tous par la lettre G.

You have a peintre decide to get their tableau at l'envers. You have a femme who is a bit opprimé by her marriage. obsédé par la mort de sa mère et puis il y a une sculptrice Alors a sculptrice qui expose in a muse where a person suicides on jet on the vide. It's a live sur l'art and the violence. And for why the choice of having quaternes who are identified by the main letter, G? Is it because we aim the quatre G? It's a blague, I don't see how it marks in Angla.

It's very Faulkner to have a personage who have the memories on Le Bruyla Furer, Sound and Fury. Plusieurs niveaux but les je voulu interroger uh le The important girl. Limage because the text never fear? Limage is silencer. uh the artist par image some more and the the person regard the image their proper artists who signified in their life. mon œuvre uh l'information me semble an chose dangereuse uh un chose qui distrait le

encourage a tattoo passivity. On raconte on s identify troll and plus actif à propos de la lecture. parce que vous êtes la femme d'un peintre, d'un peintre célèbre, anglais, et alors du coup, est-ce qu'il y a une part d'autobiographie aussi dans ce regard que vous avez sur les sur les artistes?

Je dis ça parce que dans votre roman qui a obtenu le prix Féminin étranger en deux mille vingt-deux, la dépendance, il y avait déjà un artiste qui arrivait dans une maison et qui perturbait la tranquillité de la maison.

Um we may um put different uh La dependance c'était plutôt l'idée de uh a femme qui se rend compte que uh it has rempli de masculine and adoration de la culture uh shin fan se aussi uh absorbe det penser maskulin dig la creation masculin och el lut entre el och söpentr um Sa signifie signifie plutôt uh le le désir d'être vu par Yeah, that also a bit parade.

It is very cruel for him. There's a moment a tableau of an artist who confronts their people to the pornography. It's just that question of the Comment dire? La domination artistique. Alors le le the movement on parade c it n'a pas un narrative uh peut-être mais il y a um movement uh depuis the le the dernier the dernier moment on the dear de la patriarchy cultural so the image of the painter homes blanc uh très célébrée avec sa femme qui On peut voir dans le livre que

Come to vague, the progress and after the backlash. Queza and Louise Bourgeois who The family who has two. The traditional family is male, With some money is very gentle and ill parce que he more lace libre and uh artist. It survives 90%. It terminates her. Don't think that we aimer that your money would live? No, no, so uh J'ai very proche à la construction des images on se annoyez. jaloux of that processes artistic visual which meembook plus my mari sentir vraiment hors de ton il parle.

Simon Scamel Katz. A propos de patriarcat, je voudrais vous remercier d'avoir accepté de venir chez la Pérouse, qui est une... I promised to behave myself. Yes, and also thank you for accepting the questions of a white male or Above 50 years old. But I did this idea of upside down, I would enter a chanson. I'll make the cask. Et on va pas danser But I entered this chanson of Diana Ross Upside Down? Because you have Dedicat Lee. to write a novel upside down.

Donc Diana Ross in her chanson said it's an amount. It's a little plus ambitious that. Create a novel form, a novel form literary explique more, because we'll feel more like me. Okay. Um I guess it began with the observation that uh to be female is in a sense to be female in pa patriarchy, is in a sense to be upside down. Uh to be um living male values um that invert um one's essential being and Feminism is in a way to turn upside down society

Right. It would be the the goal of uh a feminist novel, to turn everything upside down so that it's reversed. But instead I I think um the question of female complicity, which is what parade begins with, is the spectacle of a this woman who is essentially complicit in uh that that her her realisation that her very grasp of reality is in a sense twisted um by this complicity. Um the question then arises of how

how to free oneself from that m I suppose perversion of of being. Um, how can women free themselves? How can they uh become who they who they actually are. And uh I guess the o the answer in the book is is by confronting and owning um a certain violence that is femininity. Exactly. We come to the point. C'est intéressant parce que le titre Parade, je ne sais pas si vous le savez, on france a double sens.

le défilé, le défilé, la parade, and the construction du livre, puisqu'il y a ces quatre retrouves en alternance, comme dans une sortie de défilé. But it is also the idea of the violence, to parad, to be the violence. And that is valuable in English also. So that is really the question of the living.

brutal who a personage of liver is attacked in the rue by a femme and she could compromise that it's autobiography. It's a child, who had sauté dessus in the ring. No but Ah ça ne signifie rien si ça m'a arrivé or la question était comment à être transformé en quelque chose d'utile, quelque chose de transformant.

J'ai du pensé pendant vraiment deux ans pour arriver à la la solution, uh qui était l'idée que la violence se le sa partage an racine with la creation and the premier uh act d'être human for dire j'exist uh frapping peut-être le commencement de la création. And it's like you are in trying to define an event français. L'étranger de Camus raconte that an act gratuit an homme who tues.

An Arab from a plage and it's also present with André Gide, it's the question of Do crime gratuit or de la violence gratuite is tra Francis. C'est une forme d'expression. Creëer is, to one extent or another, d'être libre. Cet idea que les femmes doivent uh passe par a niveau de violence reconnaître le la violence in their proper corps in their vie for se liber Evolution that figure the cascadeuse who follows dangerous.

the comedian but sort of blessed. And I thought that it was a big metaphor for the femininity that shakes It's a cascadeuse. undergoes um the biological destiny of of women with its pain and it's to allow the woman to go back to her job, to be equal. And this equ it's this equality that is The femmes have a cascadeur almost that the homes not.

J'ai appris aussi que quand vous étiez petite, vous teniez un journal intime et votre mère la détruit. Peut être même que c'est grâce à ça que vous l'êtes devenu écrivain. pour désobéir à votre mère. Vous pouvez vous allonger si vous voulez votre journal intime. And L AT Brulet dans son tour il y a dix weight more. No, come to the Jonki Oui, c'était une disons sans le faire exprès, une forme de vengeance. Mais c'est les choses qui existent qui existent non plus.

On pense aussi à Marguerite Duras, at Nathalie Saroth in your manner just juxtaposing the fragments, the Adam Biles, not amication, at the library Shakespeare and Company at Paris, he qualifies the liver of Kaleidoscope. Est-ce que ça aussi la lecture de C Romancier France? C'est vraiment uh she pensac l uhs um or the convention, c'est-a-discon de Roman Anglophone uh and motivat the sensation come j'avais dit d'être Plan mer don't a petit bateau.

Two les shows que dans le monde Anglophone on disouvant par exemple que je cassai form d' Roma. No, it's very gentle, but uh when you see Marguerite Jurassic Les Français d'Irlow de T. C'est-à-dire se débarrasser des personnages, un peu de la linéarité, de la narration traditionnelle, c'était dans les années 50. And with you it's never. It's very easy. And I think that the Donc les Anglophones are created a problem, the linearity.

uh d dun chassis ki qui est finalement uh on on devient um confus entre le le récit du livre est et le récit de le Annie Ernaud, for example, says that. It's an intime. Okay. Certain jours, at travers la vie, on a l'impression que tous les enfants pleurent le long des rues dans leur pucette, ils gémissent comme des sirènes. On voile visage stried alarm derriere le vitre de voiture qui pass Tondicil Sanglote inconsolable d'un siege autour.

Done Jardin Public, O Supermarché, Dolibus et Le Train, Lamentation Satur, Paris de Devin entrevu Celcan Atrocites Le Pon de Sabat Surnu. Leurs parents s'occupent d'eux avec une patience étudiée, sans apparemment s'intéresser aux causes de leur chagrin. Ils supportent leur peur à travers les rues, comme s'ils étaient simplement les gardiens de ces êtres dont le triste message nous est adressé à tous.

Alors ça c'est très intéressant parce que So the Francine saved peut-être pa c'est que vous avez fait scandale en Angleterre avec Life's Work, a livre qui est un essai sur la maternité. Who did these things that me shock absolutely, it's extremely complicated and pronounced to have an enfant, you have two fill. et que évidemment pour un écrivain, essayer de travailler en ayant deux enfants, c'est... C'est difficile.

Là, vous dites quelque chose, tous les enfants pleurent en venant au monde. Quel est leur message? Qu'est-ce qu'ils essayent de nous dire? And that c'est assez drôle et je vous ai fait lire ça parce que vous faites toujours. For me, there isn't provocateur to do that, it's the reality. It is very complicated to be artist and parent.

Cell image the après. Oui. Après la grossesse. And habit un lieu uh Uh chose set set force the de la biology uh and uh Po moi c'est le le tous les choses maintenant que j'écris uh so tu ici en parallèle. Nous vivons à... Avec l'aide de beaucoup d'illusions et que progressivement on perd les illusions. And finally, after la nature uh used uh completely and finished il ne reste pas des illusions. Et on peut peut-être uh la reality.

But you've reaction a moment of Life's Work, c'était in the Uh we and no. Um did you know what is Virginia Woolf in a chamber swab. de la maternité, je n'ai pas voulu écrire sur the domestic sur les enfants sur tout ça but et c'était un vraiment un Parce que c'était absolument clair que Come beaucoup de femmes doivent faire pour retourner à la bureau après avoir eu les enfants.

Semblant, come si les tout est bien and on est ici uh les hommes et on ne parle pas des enfants et des exigences de um de la maison. C'est la même chose on la literature et je me suis rendue compte que I've a devoir. A grand devoir. And that my pleas de too. O de su de la literature. C'était un sujet and both the mum made sacred. Ah, beneath. Oui, ou alors tabou, ou alors un peu tabou aussi. Vous disiez dans ce texte, to be a mother I must leave the telephone unanswered.

C'est vrai qu'il y a une forme d'oppression, et c'est sûr. Moi, comme père et comme écrivain, je peux vous dire que je déteste les mercredis, parce que les mercredis, les enfants n'ont pas école. Et donc là c'est impossible de travailler.

Parlons aussi de Arlington Park in 2006 sous le titre La Vie Domestique justement by Isabelle Chaska C'était la 24 heures de la vie de quatre femmes, déjà le chiffre quatre comme dans Parade, quatre personnages. Ooh, the marriage and the maternity had a cauchemar. It's a little a remake of Desperate Housewife. It's also the question that is posted on the variation Brad Show in 2010, where it rolled over one day. My question, Rachel Cut.

Pourquoi ne crevez jamais de feel good books? Oh no I've done it again. Vous pensez qu'un la littérature ça va pas avec le bonheur? change to the time and some moment it means cherch, so too les gens jeunes, c'est la difficulté. la difficulté c'est un un signe de la vérité, de quelque chose qui est peut-être hors de cartellisme. or de du système de de uh Oui, peut-être, mais il y a beaucoup de faits.

J'ai été frappé uh the dernier semaine. J'ai um voyage beaucoup pour le livre on beaucoup de pays. And toujours il y a Et um j'ai noté souvent que Les gens ne sont pas stupides and ne veut pas ce que les autres disent. They don't want to just to be told what I mean part of culture is discovery. It's discovering something as an individual that speaks to you as an individual.

So I think the virtues of difficulty in this moment are are big. Because uh because the the goal is to create a new way of life, maybe. Yeah. And so this is uh But also to find out what You know, anything that you're told you know you can't trust. And uh when you're young particularly, you want to find the thing that people aren't telling you about and I think that's a really

That is something, you know, because part of the question, writing parade and thinking so much about visual art and what it does that writing can't do. Um it impenetrable mystery, the the possibility of the artist being hidden um by the artwork, the the lack of explicitness that that is so in language that it is so explicit, so revealing of of one's of of the quotidian um to see that literature can still um break some ground. Break some new ground. Um I guess. That's I find that very reassuring.

Cette réalité grise, cette rencontre d'obscurité et de lumière à travers des tessons de verre brisés, tel était notre commencement. C'est-à-dire que pour vous la réalité est comme un puzzle. qu'il faut tenter de saisir par des bribes discontinues. L'écriture is incapable of comprendre le monde entier, but en revanche it's essay at travers ces tessons de vers brisés. Pour moi c'était l'idée de ces artistes, leur biographie.

For my city come li uh the tomb tomb uh ke persona deja over visuel noté que it is a snobism chez les historians d'art autour de l'idée de expliquer The paintures are the consequence of that. On ne faith pas that in the mind of art and she pensay I fear that's right, but it's very reusing.

Alors j'ai un petit jeu dans cette emmission, je vais vous dire des citations de vous, des phrases de vous, and you all me dire dans quel livre vous avez écrit cette phrase. En plus, c'est en français, c'est encore plus difficile. C'est deux fois plus difficile que pour les invités habituels. Attention, ne trichez pas, je vois que vous essayez de regarder. I have very bad eyesight, don't worry. The marriage is another name of the hen.

Arlington Park. Arlington Park 2006. Bravo. Don't remember, it's not vous. But the refusal mariage, you left, it's a vous en avez parlé souvent la dictature, de la conjugalité, on vient d'en parler de la maternité aussi. La question au fond, parce que moi je travaille au Figaro, je suis d'un environnement très réac. You can't change evidently too. It's very bien. But is that you could not limit it's just the biology?

Est-ce que vous croyez ça ou pas? Quand est-ce qu'on va arriver à se débarrasser de la dictature de la biologie? C'est les femmes qui font les enfants. Je pense que... In English is a tough question and dangerous answer C'est certain que les gens doesn't process that interrogation gender um de la gendre uh que on ne uh devenu beaucoup plus gendered. Ah oui, vous trouvez paradoxalement. At the pocket and perrucks. de la biology it's no encore uh uh uh It's interesting that

The other human with these other questions. And after that, for example to have an enfant development a choice. It's a responsibility telling immense. Another phrase of you. Not long ago our mother died, at least her body did, the rest of her remained obstinately alive. Parade. Parade, of course. Alors my pair is mourier, come your mere, but you never sent you present. That's what we did on that phrase. Vivant it is absent, pres it is plus present more than viv

It's a recit uh as a brutal uh sans illusion. Uh I would Quelque chose autre, quelque chose uh sans sentiment, sans au sujet du du du du corps. نحن نحن نحن نحن نحن نحن نحن um and the difficulty to move. Santi com anob an object. L'art véritable revient à s'efforcer de capturer l'irréel. That is la dependence. Oh, but you have a bone memoir of your proper. It's normal, we have lucky. Let's see, my Peut-être le plus important roman.

outline. And Sun is person in the France no one ever mentions it. But no but it's traded. Contour. O rest du monde sa the mon over the plus important, but. Certaines choses sont artificielles, d'autres sont authentiques, les premières sont faciles à repérer, les secondes beaucoup moins. Oh, okay. That was a long time ago. It's a living, we are certain certain that okay intelligence artificial. It's impossible.

Et pour moi, ça aide. Je n'ai aucun problème avec... JLGBT? Peut-être, c'est le monde, c'est comme... Uh Et même résister, non? Résister, dire je suis un être humain, je ne serai jamais un robot. Petit me on peut uh petit uh tests I am not a robot. Um may poem le L'attention attention. The force of attention. Uh, which is everything. It's prayer, um Creativity, uh it's also what you can give somebody to to it it it is a for it is a force of improvement and

finding the thing that that requires your attention. That is that is the for me the biggest challenge of writing. It's so easy to write something that you know yeah that you know you can write that that but to actually find the thing that really, really needs um you to to concentrate on it to the exclusion of everything else. Um, the book shows itself to you

by that process. And that's exactly what you are doing and you are always trying to do something else, something different. Every book is different from the pre previous one. And that is why you are

a great novelist. Thank you very much for coming and spending time talking and resisting to Chat GPT. Uh m maybe just one last question. Quand est-ce que vous allez écrire un livre en français? Jamais. It exists like France. What's he really, yeah, really franc? Performance Paris is a stranger, but for the France. Oui, pour les uh les gens de Moyana. No, but it's an Well, it's another emission of radio for my d two Paris and the Parisian and the Francine.

La media th the immediate thing, secur uh it's joy. Ah oui. Ah very bien. They complain all the time. And I have become I said I said to my husband the other day, I was hearing myself complaining. Maybe I'm finally becoming Parisian. A real Parisian. And when I go away I really miss the food here. I'm like what is what is this that you're Thank you very much.