It isn't like we've gotta become some sophisticated bunch of people, you know, the really sophisticated people. We don't. That's what prayer has been so much more than ever before because it's about being transformed much just learning and connected. Hey. Welcome again to the podcast and really great to have you here. I'm recording in a place that I've never actually tried the recording of podcast We're sitting around a campfire fire on the West side of Canberra.
We've just been up at Mount Corey, praying over city of canberra. And I'm with Brian and class, and just had a a few wonderful days together as we've been doing some prayer walking, engaging in the harvest. We've been doing some training and prayer air together for the city. It's been awesome. Just a wonderful time. And I just thought I'd capture the moment and capture the time with Brian and class.
And to see what god has been pouring into them that it might be an encouragement to us as we try and do Dm all over the place in Australia and throughout the world, wherever you're listening. So I trust this as a blessing to you. Welcome. Any background noise here is either the fire crackling or the wind blowing in the trees and camp that as just ambient atmosphere. As we're together. So welcome, Brian. Good to have you to the podcast. Oh, it's great to be here. And great Da. You. Brian.
You you've been on the journey for some time, and now you're... You're really in the... I would call it the birthing stage of cat work here in canberra. What has been the highlight of the last couple of months of learning? What has god being really emphasizing to you while you've been here in canberra? Okay. Well, you know, I first started to become aware of sample multiplication in 2013 and so we're are 11 years on from
that. And I I would say that if if there was a graph that showed my engagement with the process, you know, that took a long time, much longer than I I thought. And And I'm a by nature, you know, I grab hold of something even before I understand it and run doctor. Yeah. Yeah. Run out the door in the snow. So, So but but I didn't realize how how how how much had to be transformed in my thinking and in my acting because otherwise, I was just... I tried to implement a
method. Mh. And the method didn't work. You know, it wasn't the method it was actually the the heart attitude, the perspective and all those other things. So I'd say, you know, that, over the years, with, I was passing a church in Canberra, and and I was keen... Yeah, We started all this way talking about building Monday's church, which was, you know, building church where you are. So so that that went on and on, and the commitment to Evangelist and we're still strong. But it wasn't
multiplying evan. It was... We never thought of about multiplying. We always just thought about leading somebody to Christ and ba baptized joining for the church, And I would say, a couple of things have happened in the last couple of years. 1 is that claus came back to Canberra, and, and we've worked together in all of this, and I think that's been really formative in my own mind. The other thing is that we that we've become much more understanding of the way discovery works
in multiplication. So To help somebody to discover something is helping them to multiply something. And I I'd I I just I just feel a great sense of shame in 1 way that I spent all my time preparing Sermon and all these other things. And while those things have I kind of value. They don't they don't have any capacity in reality to multiply. I mean, they don't have any. So I think of a bloke who's spent 50 years preparing Sermon and honestly pastor people and so forth. And still having
a heart for evan, Mh. But not not multiplication and not... That's why, you know, I hear stories about multiplication. It just first blew my mind. And then when I started to commit to it, it was it was much more difficult than I thought, not... Yep. And so and so I can remember the first time I said to somebody who just become a disciple, don't come to church.
We wanna do church in your house. Right And, Like, I cannot tell you how that was, like this huge water share, because I've spent 50 years telling people to come to do it. Yeah. And so those are the kind of things that have changed. And so we've not only had much more confidence about that, but it's actually become part of us. And so I think I definitely misunderstood what it would take to traverse the transition of thinking and and heart space and
so forth about this. And so that's why prayer has been so much more important than ever before because it's about being transformed, not just learning something that's a new a new slick method. Yeah. Fantastic. And I'm just staying with you, Brian. We're here in canberra. And not only are you transitioning from what we would describe as a legacy or traditional church? Into a movement think in a movement spear
head that's going on. But you're also doing it in an environment that's incredibly sophisticated. Canberra has some of the highest levels of education in our nation, has the as of very, quite quite progressive environment, and it's been the political capital, and, And so engaging in this culture, really is at the cutting edge of, as we engage with the question, how do we reach the west?
And here is a is a is a is a con collaboration of all the thinking patterns that are happening in the west or that transitional thinking turning away from the traditional beliefs in God. Turning into, a whole bunch of stuff that's going on, how how are you engaging? How does Dm engage in that environment that you're finding. Yeah. Okay. And and, You know, that's why, you know, I would have... If I was having this conversation 10 years ago, I would've have said Canberra is a really hard place.
But I I don't I don't I don't believe that anymore not because we've seen thousands of people multiplying disciples. But because, I know that we... If you start with the idea that the harvest is plentiful. Mh Right? And and and that if we pray, God will raise up workers for the harvest. It's not just numbers of people who are, you know, joining a crew. It's actually harvest workers, not just workers, harvest workers that who have harvest in their heart and know that that god has a way of doing
this. And and it isn't it isn't like we've gotta become some sophisticated bunch of people in order to reach sophisticated people. We don't. There is a heart change inside, that means that when you're with somebody regardless to who they are, the... It's just it just bringing the kingdom to them. And so knowing what to saying what to do in this context, knowing which stories to tell and all other
things. It's still the same, but it's just a different a different like bunch of stories, a different kind of approach, which is culturally connected. And so, you know, I think people have found around the world that different story groups work better and so forth. And so I reckon in our little bit of experience. We've seen different kind of ways of doing the story thing, but it's still the story thing. Yeah. And it's still discovery. Yeah. And it's still
holy spirit. Yeah. And it's still us having something inside that we're offering with the nut... With the knowledge that this this will give somebody an opportunity to connect with Jesus. And so I reckon it's all... That's why prayer is so important and obedience is so important because because we think we're too smart. To just believe what Jesus said about going and doing it. And I think that's it's
it's not coming down. It's actually smart up, but it's smart up with a sense of what it is that's inside of the heart of God. And what is going on with the person that we're hanging out with. Mh. So good. And just to, enforce, we've been we've been engaging, and we we we pre walked and we've we've talked to people, and and just like a typical western environment, the nations live in canberra. So we've talked to Indian. And Fiji in the area that you're reaching is full of Nepal.
And and and just jumping into that context being trans spirit in faith having upfront relational conversations quickly moves us into that Suite. I'll be really encouraged as we've just seen, you know, Emma, Fiji who who we've engaged with, who's just out from Fiji and And suddenly, suddenly, we're possibly seeing a discovery group starting in Emma's house. And and we're our our our brother from from India who served us coffee the other
day. And his open openness to talk about the bible and spiritual things and, yeah, fantastic. 1 thing I've I've really enjoyed hanging with you is the the the fundamental elements that I see in movements of prayer, of engagement in the harvest of a disciple making through discovery and multiplication is all running through what you're doing. Class, some before we jump into some of the stuff
about team and prayer and harvest. What what grabs your heart, The most, what's what sings in your spirit when you think of Dm? What what do you love about it? I love the simplicity of it. And how anyone can actually grab hold of it, which brings us to the multi nature of of it, and it can be come a move. Just the simplicity of, of, the approach. And even even thinking about you refer to camera being in a very sophisticated place and educational levels and everything else.
But when we think about how Jesus approached everybody. And if we do think that he he he was the smartest, wisest, most intelligent person to to walk on Earth ever. He chose to use stories, and he chose to approach people at a heart level as much as engaging their mind through the stories as well. And so so the simplicity of this is just beautiful, because it brings us back to our dependence
on God. Mh not our own level of this or that inability of this or that, lack of that or or abundance of that, but but rather the abundance of of the word of God, everything centering around that, and the abundance of the holy spirit inside of us empowering us and allowing us to capture the heart of god and sense, his desire to reach the lost people and the broken broken us in the world and and affect that through his word and through his spirit. Yeah. Awesome.
For the listener who's listening, you know, we've been not only prayer walking, engaging in the harvest, but we're meeting with team. And in the nights, we've been doing some training and prayer or just stop sharing really, some stories from the from from the frontiers and also, you know, just training. You guys have also been going through Jim Brits book, and that's been really great and we're... We've just done 3 podcast podcasts with Jim.
What have you picked up from Jim and how how is that applying in your context? Well, like, O'brien said the biggest challenge is, the challenging inside of us and and so there's is saying in in in the movement world that I hear often, you gotta go slow to be able to go far. And so to have a have a big impact, you gotta go slower and I reckon part of the reason. Why we have to go slow is because there are so many mind shift so so much has to do with renewing our mind.
And grabbing hold of actual truth that we haven't big been aware of because we've interpreted the word through the lenses that we use and the grids that we use. And and so the renewing of the mind is a is a huge aspect of this and and Jim Brits, the the book presents us with 4 simple habits that we can grab hold of. And they they help us with with the renewing of the mind, but also just, a great, gateway into into some of this some of the simple tools that we do need to use, which is
you know, prayer is the first thing. Mh. So our prayer life changes as we realize that the challenge is great. And our prayer life changes because we become aware that we need to be transformed, and there's our process going inside of us and And so we pray for ourselves about the challenges and about the the things that, the revelation that we We get from heaven, and and we pray about that. We pray for the lost people. We pray for workers for the harvest. And we do that together as a community.
Yeah. And so we learn to actually pray not just in our closets, but we learn to pray together. And and the corporate power and the dynamics that come into play, when we do that. And and then the second habit, has to do with, engaging
the lost people and Mh. And having discussions with them that go beyond the how you're going and the weather and the sporting teams and so on and and getting into meaningful conversations about their life and what is actually happening in their life and and and becoming a good listener. Yeah. Through that. Yeah. Finding
out about people and seeing where how... What kind of bridges that then might present in terms of know, bringing Jesus in into the into the conversation and and the good news that we haven't and and and so getting into spiritual conversation. And then the third habit has to do with with discovery and and and the whole idea of of, discovering the word and anybody can do it and and how do how to empower others to then immediately get other people on the discovery journey as well,
as they're getting started themselves. Yeah. So what it has done is it's It's made the conversations that we have or with each other, as disciple making communities, real, genuine, authentic, honest, vulnerable, and we're talking about what is happening inside of us, rather than just about principles and truths and and external lies things which easily takes up all our time. So now it's about the internal thing that, the holy spirit is is working on. In my life.
Positioning us for for just that that movement that it's gotta be in us to multiply from us. Yes. And the idea of not expecting someone to else to do something that we are not doing ourselves. Which is hearing God, a obeying god praying and sharing with others. And that's gotta be in in all our lives and Yeah. 1 thing I really noticed about, the the time that I've had here is the idea of team. And you guys are of you've got pray.
You've got going. You've got d cycling through Dbs and forming groups and and multiplication, or being woven into that, Dna, but your building team. And what's unique probably about this situation is your building team out of a church congregation, which is I think are somewhat challenging at times. And you... Because you're dealing with people at all different levels and places and you're going slow enough. How is how is that going for you in team building?
Well, it is true. The teams have... So what what we did was we switched from just gathering everybody in a hole. To gathering in homes. And so the group size is is different and that allows for a different kind depth in terms of relationships and learning to love 1 another and And the kind of conversations and caters towards And so these groups, these churches are gather homes have now become the teams that are actually in the process of of becoming workers in the harvest or already working in
the harvest. Then it it allows people who are who further down the track to encourage and and support those who are just getting on the track and at different stages on this journey.
And that's team essentially isn't it. We're all heading in the same direction We're Mh all encouraging 1 another and supporting 1 another and cheering 1 another along and and learning and discovering things, as we go and and and celebrating the moments where somebody has not just revelation, but where they're actually put into practice what was revealed to them and
that they p in their own lives. And so, yeah, we're we're seeing those kinds of teams happen, and and I I have to say that, I haven't had this much joy Yeah. In a church ever before as I am having right now. Wow. And and and the the the heart is just filled with with celebration and and and and wonder. At what God is doing. Yeah. That's that's awesome. Brian, just coming to you. We've got this wonderful thing happening. As you looking forward, what do you think? Are some of the challenges
ahead. What do you think are some of the things like you're you're looking at it, you're saying, look, we're getting this, but I think we need to get to this place. What would you identify is because we all at a certain place, but we're all to grow. We've got a change? And we've gotta keep changing and growing. What are some of the changes in growth as you forecast in your mind. Next couple of years you've got some wonderful stuff happening here in Canberra. Yeah. What what do you think?
Look, I think it comes down to multiplication happening at every in every part of the operation. So you can multiply disciples and so forth. And, that that can that can happen. But it can easily fall away. And I think what I've learned and what I've seen from other movements and so forth is that we're gonna need to multiply what I would call, apostolic hubs or cat hubs. Yeah. You know, and not just all over Australia, but all
over Canberra. So. We're gonna need... And by apostolic, like I don't mean, you know, Capital A and getting money from everything everybody. Like, hierarchy or leadership No. Not how matter. Not even not even closed. Not even... It is actually the totally opposite of hierarchical. It's actually Yeah. Apostolic leadership giving support and direction and, you know, and and vision and
casting vision and so forth And. And I think our experience would show that everything that is prosper is prosper because of some form of apostolic input. Like, you know? Now we get Apostolic I can put from the scriptures itself, of course, we do. And and if you notice what Paul says, in ephesians says, that the, that the church is built on the foundations of what's and prophets with Jesus being the cornerstone. So Yeah. So the the... The apostolic
leadership will be Jesus connecting leadership. It'll be Jesus vision clarifying leadership. It'll be jesus empowering leadership. It'll be this kind of leadership. So at the moment that looks anything not the same as Jesus and the apostolic church, then let's get rid of it, you know, because, because there's all kinds of things that happen along the way. And and and and genuine leadership is is multiplied through leaders multiple multiply leaders and cat leaders multiply cat. And we know
that movements multiple multiply movement. So what is that? That it's just actually that the the apostolic leadership, the vision, the faith and so forth broke out of the boundaries of anything that they we're involved in and saw beyond and saw beyond. And says he's like Paul he writes Jerome. You know, he's never been to Rome, but he's riding to Rome and says, Hey, listen. I'm gonna gonna call in there because I'm on my way to Spain because Spain hasn't heard the gospel yet. So...
And and I think, you know, the guys that have just come back from Nairobi from the catalyst camp there. You know, Are talking about the fact that here our guys, here are leaders who've seen movements, you know, happening multiple movements, but they're not thinking about what they've got. They're only thinking about what is yet to be done. And so I think that's the key now, now, some people need to have that inside of them, so they can look at what's going on and help
to guide an importance over forth. So multiplying that cat our leadership pubs. Here. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely agree with that because you know, as we see, we need people to belong somewhere in teams and to be sent out from somewhere. We need multiplying hubs
and or disc cycling communities. Our, communities filled with disciples that's focused on loss and multiplying discovery bible studies and We see that clearly in the new testament that we with paul, planting hubs that multiplied and in saturated regions and and and it's it's kind of... It's different to what we see when we look at, traditional structure of church with some 1 person in charge, or, you know, it's actually a it it involves the values of of of everybody's a,
everybody gets to contribute. And yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful of us see the multiply hub, developing here in canberra. And so those hubs will start with people who have that inside of them and need to be encouraged. You know? So so I think the idea is that those people need to be identified and encouraged and Yeah. And because because if you if you talk to somebody, very often, they've They do have something of the
multiplying vision, but they... You know, like, like all things, you start to open your eyes and suddenly you see things you've never seen before. And that's why the people who are on this journey need to be looking out for the for the people who are potential hub, you know, coordinators or catalysts all whatever of you wanna call it? That's right. So it's just been wonderful.
To be here in canberra to see a multiplying hub developing to see a congregation, a gathering of people getting the heads around pray, go, disciple, multiply. Engagement in the harvest deliberately intentional spiritual conversations, looking for people of peace starting discovery bible studies. My heart sinks, as I come into this city, and, you know, the listener might know not know. But I've come into Canberra before. I grew
up in this city. And I've prayed, and I said, where where could it be lord? How could it be started? And here we are. We're seeing this multiplying home. I love being on team with you guys. It's awesome. And that's how I feel. I feel like I'm a team with you. We're together as a wonderful. And I'm looking forward to the journey ahead in conclusion, Brian, how would you like to encourage the listener as as they're looking at their world and their contact in all kinds of variety of places
and things that they're facing. What would you like to say? Okay. There's a couple of things I'd like to say if I can do it very quickly. 1 is that that that prayer needs to evolve, not not just the amount of time you pray, but the way you pray because prayer needs to be a journey from not having something to getting something, not seeing something to seeing something. And when you see it, you need prayer to implement it, So prayer needs to... Everything needs to
come from prayer. And what I'm saying is everything needs to come from heaven. Yeah. If it comes from the earth, no matter how whether the harvard business review, the likes that or not, it isn't gonna be a value to us. And and we've seen every time there's been some kind of pioneering Christian movement. It's always been sponsored by prayer and the word. Yeah. And the spirit. So, you know, so that's why I think let let prayer evolve. Don't just sit yourself in a room and just pray the same
oil prayer, you know, pray the edges. Just what's going on at the edge. Pray for that pray for what we need at the edge and pray for what needs to happen at the edge. And keep on praying for that until you get what to do how to do it and everything else And secondly, never never leave the word out of it. Yeah. It it... It's gonna come from the word. And this is very hard for us. We like fashion. We like, you know to move
for the next thing and next thing. But this word keeps on stirring because this word from heaven is a person. And when we relate to the word, we get the opportunity of relating to the person, the presence of the person, the heart of the person and that word will lead us there. And that word will open our eyes. And that word will give us power and strength. That word will tell us how to get on with each other. Know, so that we can
get the job done. So, Yeah. Prayer and the word and the obedience flows from that. That is the deal. Yes. Right. Nothing more, nothing less. Amen. So class pray for us as we finish. Heavenly many father, we recognize that Care much more about the creation, the people that you have made than we do. And we just wanna get a sense of your love and compassion towards every person that are living amongst this generation.
And we know that it is your holy spirit that works in us, so we pray and ask for your spirit to stir our hearts to open our eyes, to see things the way you see them to receive revelation and truth from heaven from your word, to hear your voice to be moved by you, and and for our ears to be open to to hear the stories of people in and where they're at and and to hear what you want to say to them and how you want to, reach out to them and touch their lives and transform them
as much as you wanna transform us. So once again, we just keep ourselves to you. We thank you for your faithfulness for your grace for your mercy for your goodness in our lives, but we want that to be experienced by everyone. And so we we'll just give ourselves to you, and we thank you for your impacting us and for your desire to reach every person amen.