Bye. Welcome to the Rachel's English Podcast. I'm Rachel, and I put together this podcast for people who are studying English as a second language. If you need help understanding this podcast, There's always a free transcript that you can download for each episode. Please go to rachelsenglish.com slash podcast and search for this episode. Today, my husband David and I are going to be discussing
A recent trip that we took to Italy. We were there for a month and we just got back about a week ago. And we're going to discuss what it was like for us to be non-native speakers. And not only non-native speakers, but... Non-native speakers with very little Italian skill. We're going to talk about what that was like from the language perspective and then also just from our personal experience, our personalities. How did it feel?
to be in another country speaking another language. David, to start, I'd like to ask you, what did you do to prep as far as language before we left? Well, not very much. and it's definitely a regret. You were doing a lot of practicing with your audio course, and so there were some times when we were sitting together in the living room and I was doing something else, and you were...
practicing. So I sort of, I think I absorbed a little bit of the set of sounds and a couple bits of vocabulary, but I really didn't do very much on my own. And it's a regret. really wish I had done a little bit more. Do we need to study Italian now and go back again in a few months? Yes. Okay, we'll do that. For me, I had actually taken an adult night learning class in Italian like 10 years ago when I was in graduate school. And, you know, that was...
I remember our Italian teacher, he was fun, but no one was taking it super seriously. It was mostly people who were just taking it for fun. And then I did, maybe two months before we left, I did start listening to an audio course by a teacher named Michel Tomas. Or no, Michel Tomas. I can't remember how exactly he pronounces his name.
And I have fun with that, but I felt like he went really far with conjugations before really teaching very much vocabulary at all. I felt like I did not go into my trip with a very good vocabulary. Yeah. Like he taught you how to use sentences and he was teaching conjugations. So he was constantly using it as the object. So like I didn't learn. I learned how to say it a lot. Oh, yeah. Because he was more concerned with the verb conjugations, it seemed. Yeah, so...
Had I to do it again, I would have spent a little bit more time on vocabulary. I also think I would have spent some time thinking about situations where I would want to be using English, and then I would have sort of memorized a specific set of words. Yeah, me too. Like high chair and car seat. Oh, right. We really needed to use those a lot. Okay, did you study at all once you got to Italy? I don't study formally.
But I was paying attention to various things. And I think it was those small situations that you were just referencing where I really started to pay attention. The small everyday phrases, you know, how to say good afternoon or hi. How to say excuse me when I had done something that I had gotten in someone's way. How to say the numbers, you know, just one to five. I hadn't even, you know, learned to do that before I left. How to say please.
I'm sorry and thank you. I was really paying attention to the native speakers around me in situations when they were... saying those words saying those yeah i remember one time we were kind of discussing when you're cutting through a crowd you know when you're sort of getting in front of somebody how like what's the polite thing to say there and i remember i thought i had
Well, I had learned like scusa or scusi. I don't even remember now when you're cutting in or when you're trying to get someone's attention. But that's a different word. And I remember you felt like you had heard somebody say something like permetto. What was the word? I heard that. No, it was. It was, I think, scuchata. Oh, scuchata. Like I was in line at the grocery store and they needed to get through the line.
Oh, to pass. You're like, I just need to get right over here. Let me just cut through a tiny bit. It was like scuchata. And I was like, oh, whoa. That's how to use that. It's so fun when you're hearing just a tiny phrase so you actually have time to absorb it. as someone who doesn't really know the language, when you're just hearing a tiny phrase and you're seeing exactly how it's used, that's so fun. Absolutely. Yeah. When you were in a situation where you...
didn't know what to say. You knew in English what you would say, but you did not know how to say it in Italian. What would you do in those cases? I think that my default was to smile. obviously try to use some some hand motions um sort of like put my hands together and sort of said oh excuse me made it made a motion for excuse me with a little bit of a bow
I mean, you know, it was terrible. I felt like such... I felt so incompetent. And I was embarrassed. And I think that's why I wish that I would have spent... even a couple hours on the basic phrases because it was incredibly embarrassing. It was, you know, I realized once it was too late, wow, I am... I'm going through the world without these everyday phrases in hand, and it's an incredible assumption. I'm imposing my ignorance on the entire world around me.
Not to be able to say, I'm sorry for stepping on your toe in line. Or even just, I'm sorry. Just, I'm sorry. Oh, that's what I mean. Forget about how to say toe. But just to say, I'm sorry, it's a really... I just realized I was imposing my ignorance onto people around me and I was embarrassed. You're really relying on other people's kind of kindness. Yeah. I felt that way once I was... I was doing a little bit of shopping and I actually was surprised how intimidating I found that.
To go into a store and not knowing exactly the culture around like trying things on or whatever, you know, I know exactly how everyone expects that to work in the US, but I didn't know how people expect it to work in Italy. And most of the time I would go into a store and sort of look around and just leave because I was like too shy to do anything about it. And one time I was in a store and a woman approached me and said something and I didn't understand what she said. And I smiled and I said.
I'm sorry, do you speak English? That is one thing I learned to say in Italian, and that was useful. Parla l'inglese? That was a phrase I was using a lot. But it was nice to at least start in Italian. And when she said, oh, yes, and she switched to English, I just felt this sense of relief. And I felt like it felt like an act of kindness on her part to identify.
where I was at and what I needed and to like be willing to go there and I was just thinking about yeah how just coming to where someone is you know even though I was in Italy You know, when I had made some effort to learn Italian, but it wasn't enough for her to so willingly switch to English. And I know that this is common. Lots of people in other countries know English, especially people who would work in the tourist industry.
But still, I think, you know, someone who is in that situation that's willing to really work on their English in order to be able to communicate with others is such a friendly and kind gesture. And I was so thankful for it. Absolutely. I had a similar experience. I went when we were in Rome. There was a cheese shop right underneath the apartment that we were staying in.
And I could smell it when I walked by. I could look in. It looked so cozy and homey and real. And so I decided I was going to go in and get some cheese and meats for us to have before dinner. And I go in. and i sort of like walked around there was you know there were a few people at the counter and i went in and i was just so intimidated that i walked in and then walked back out and i just i couldn't deal
And so then I went for a walk. I walked around for about 30 minutes. I was coming back to our apartment. And I said to myself, I am going in there. Come hell or high water, no matter what, I'm walking out of there with some freaking cheese. And I was still just as scared, you know, and I had to go in and I said, I think by that point I knew how to say please.
And I said, please, and pointed to some stuff. And she sort of knew a little bit of English. And, you know, I got it done. And that was some good cheese. Some good cheese. The payoff for that.
adventure you got rewarded you got rewarded for pushing out of your comfort zone really good cheese but it was a reminder to me about my own learning my own my own student self and how I learn languages and also a reminder about you know for Rachel's English students how much they have to push themselves to make that leap again and again and again and again.
It takes some courage, you know, I think. And energy. It takes courage and energy. But I also, I felt this, you know, I had changed. I had interrupted the inertia of not being like that. You know, like the rest of the situations that were similar were a little bit easier. It's kind of like you build up some momentum. You build up some, as we've talked about in another podcast, you build up.
more comfort with being uncomfortable. Each time you do that, it's a little bit easier. Absolutely. So would you say you had any conversations in Italian? No, I wish. It's such an expressive language. People are talking with their hands and people are laughing. So I was dying to get in on those conversations. I did get comfortable saying a few things.
But I would have loved to engage people in a deeper way. You know, I'm thinking the only conversation I think that I had that was 100% Italian was when we took that wrong turn in Umbria. And we went down that dirt road for like quite a ways. Until we just found a hut and then we got out. So we were in the countryside and not super isolated, but a little bit.
And we don't know where we're going. We're looking for the house that we're staying in that night, which we rented on Airbnb. And we think maybe we found it, but we're not at all sure. And so we get out and we get Stoney out of his car seat and he's sort of running around. And then... This man comes out from around the building. And I said, Francesco? And he was not Francesco. So...
And he did not speak any English. So I had to try to explain to him that we were looking for this house. We were looking for Francesco's house. And, you know, I was able to show him the address that helped. And then he was sort of able to. Tell me gesture. Use some words that I understood how to get to where we were going. That was that was awesome. I remember leaving that feeling like, man, even when.
Our language skills hardly overlap with gestures and smiles and repetition and trying things different ways. You are able to get your point across. And so we got to where we were going. Would you say that? You were ever in a case where saying something flowed really easily in Italian, like you didn't have to think about it? Yes, I can say that that happened. I didn't have conversations, but I did have moments where...
The Italian came flying out, and that was such a good feeling. We drove down a one-way street the wrong way. Just for a block, you guys. Maybe three. When we were leaving Florence, and people were, you know... people were sort of waving and being like, no, no, no, this is the wrong way down the one-way street. And I was saying, mi dispiace, I'm sorry. And it just came out in Italian first, and that was a cool feeling.
I remember I was ordering some, I went to this fruit and vegetable shop in Naples and I was wanting to get some green beans for Stoney. And I had no idea how to say anything. So I just pointed to the green beans and he starts putting these huge handfuls in. And I said really quickly, tropo, which is not a word that I had been studying. Like I had not studied that word. That word, I couldn't believe that my mind just like blurted it out. It came from having studied opera translations.
What is the word? It means like too much. Wow. Yeah. And actually that was really fun hearing words that I had learned from opera. Like someone said basta once, which means enough. And just like remembering, hearing words and. that I have only ever studied in the context of opera. Or one time when we were getting gelato, the woman who was scooping the ice cream was kind of taken by Stoney and said something about like, will you give me a kiss?
And I recognize the word for kiss. It's funny the words you learn in opera, you know, they're like kiss, love, death, betrayal. Anyway, that was really fun. And I remember I was almost taken aback by... how that word just like sprang out of my mouth when it had probably been years since I had learned it in the context of some opera libretto. Okay, do you have any advice for someone who's starting from absolute scratch?
With the language. Well, yeah, I alluded to it earlier. I think if you spend two or three hours getting down the basics, it's just going to make your first couple weeks so much easier. I think I could have cut. the sense of almost constant embarrassment that I had, which then makes it easier to be observing and playful and a little bit more at ease, which obviously helps the learning process. I think learning some of those basics ahead of time.
via whatever source you have available would be great. Actually, one thing that I was using a lot at the beginning was I would walk in somewhere and I would say, Buongiorno, parla l'inglese? If I knew that I didn't have a chance to communicate, I would greet an Italian, then ask if they spoke English, and try to use a really friendly tone with a smile on my face.
I mean, even just learning a greeting and do you speak English or whatever, or yeah, whatever your language is, I think can help. I completely agree. Well, it also makes me think about one of your videos on YouTube that has... been really popular and I have a new appreciation for now is the one on introductions and how to you know how to greet people and introduce yourself yeah a lot of people have really appreciated that video yeah it's done well yeah I'm
I have a new vantage point from which to view the popularity of that. If I had looked up the parallel for Italian and had spent... a half hour watching that a couple times, man, that would have been great. Yeah, totally. Actually, that reminds me, that brings to mind, the video that you're talking about is called Greeting Americans. And I think I could, it's sort of more phrases that you would use. Hey, what's up? Hey, how are you?
I think actually we should do another video that's just on greetings that you would use with somebody that you don't know, like in a store where you wouldn't say, hey, how are you? But you would just say hello or good morning or whatever. Okay, video idea. Okay, so David, let's talk about how did it feel to be a non-native speaker? You said you've felt embarrassed by having zero skill.
And remember we were talking about how awkward it was to take Stoney to a playground and to be having him interact with other kids and us not being able to interact with the parents at all. Yeah. Normally, you know, when we're home. The playground is actually kind of great because it's an easy way to meet new friends and your kids are playing together and you say, oh, hey, where do you guys live? And we can quickly strike up conversation. And so it was really painful to...
Honestly, it was boring to spend an hour at a playground and not be able to talk to the adults. It was rough. Yeah, I also found myself feeling awkward. Like, it's one thing to just decide, okay, I'm not going to be able to talk. to someone I'm not going to be able to start a conversation but then it's another thing to have like the fear that someone's going to start a conversation with you like it's not just boring it's also like a little bit unsettling like trying not to make eye contact or
hoping my kid doesn't do something that I feel like I need to apologize for. Yeah, right. Or whatever. You know, there was this one funny moment when... We were in Genoa. I forget where we were going. Oh, we were going to the Finiculare, the train that goes on the side of the hill of the mountain. And remember we stopped in that little tiny Piazza to get cappuccini and pastries. Yeah. So I went up to the pastry counter and I ordered pastries and she said to go.
in italian and i didn't understand uh and then she switched to english and then i said you know what was how did you say that in italian and then she told me and then You know, being the language teacher that I am, the Rachel's English Academy teacher that I am, I wanted to repeat it over and over. She said, portare via, portare via.
And so I was like, okay, portare via, portare via. And then I was repeating it out loud. And then it was totally confusing everyone around me. They thought that I didn't understand what was happening. And I was like, no, I do understand. We don't want to take it. We want to eat it here. I just want to practice this phrase because it's the only way to actually remember it. And I was just, you know, I just heard a native speaker do it.
So I was willing to take advantage of that second to repeat it over and over. And it was, yeah, people didn't understand what was going on. I actually, I encourage my students to do this. And this is something I totally did in Germany, is when you hear someone say a phrase that you just learned in that moment.
Like if you can just kind of mumble it under your breath, you know, you don't have to do it full voice like I did and confuse everybody. But if you're able to somehow disengage and from the conversation for a second and. Repeat that phrase over a few times. I think that's awesome. Or depending on the kind of language learner, the kind of brain you have, repeat it a few times and then quick scribble it down if you can write it.
I also think what was really neat a couple of times, and I saw you do, and then I ended up doing it some too, is basically getting someone to give you a little lesson. I remember we were sitting... in Napoli at the cafe in the morning and we were ordering and you know basically you say it one way and the person corrects you and then you smile and you try again and then the person corrects you again.
And basically, people love to help you get it right when they see you making an effort. So I think for people learning, working on their American English, I think that trying to say it and then someone corrects you... if you smile and say, oh, right here, let me try again, and then you say it again, people are very likely to be like, oh, yeah, you got it, or...
No, wait, wait. No, wait. Almost, you got it. People love to feel like they're the expert and to help you learn. If someone corrects you, really take advantage of that because most people don't. Most people won't. If they understand you, they'll just keep going. Right.
actually corrects you that's I always think that is awesome that's like oh wait they're willing to engage with me like this let me try it again and and actually I think that I would love to learn how to say could you help me learn how to say that
Because when I was out trying to say something and then they would switch to English because I didn't know how, then I was losing the opportunity to learn that. So I wish that I had thought a couple more times to say, could you teach me how to say that in Italian? Well, and I think another video idea for Rachel's English is to go over the phrases that someone could use to engage a native speaker. Things like, oh, hey, how'd I sound? Could you help me say that? Hey, wait.
Oh, yeah. Say that again. Can you say it more slowly? I'd like to repeat or something like that. Do you mind if I try to say it again? Do you mind giving me some feedback about what sounded right and what didn't? I think if... If you're in a context where someone is really interested and does correct you, it's an invitation to have a five-minute conversation. They'd probably love it.
Right. Or in the case, I think it was, I was learning how to correctly say the bill, please. And il conto. And I wasn't sure if it was conte. You know, I hadn't really. paid much attention to the exact. I knew the general idea, but that wasn't good enough. And so even just in that case, I was just trying to learn this one phrase and I said, how do you say it? And then he told me and I was like, that's right. And then I said it back a couple of times.
Even just an exchange like that, that can be 30 seconds where a native speaker can teach you. And if you've just said, how do you say it? And then you're repeating it. there's a chance that they might correct you if your pronunciation isn't quite great. And it was so funny. There were times when I felt like I had gotten my, you know, I care about pronunciation. That's kind of my thing.
And there were a couple of times where I would say a phrase that I knew was the right phrase and people wouldn't understand me. And then I was like, OK, I'm still not doing something right. I don't know exactly yet what it is. But that was interesting to me. To know that I was saying it right, or to know that I knew the words, like the actual words themselves I knew were right. But something about my pronunciation was too studied or too bookish, not natural enough for someone to...
figure it out. That was sad. And it gets back to something that we talk about a lot about mindset. I think if you're in a mindset where you can make a mistake and then sort of smile and work with a native speaker on correcting it. That kind of a lesson, and you're right, even if it is just 30 seconds, that lesson is lodged in a particular context with a particular memory. You know, like I can immediately call back to mind.
what it looked like and felt like and sounded like sitting at that cafe when that guy gave us the mini lesson right i mean it's just it's so different than learning it from a book And here's a crazy idea. If you're in a case where you know you're going to be interacting with an American for a very brief period of time, asking for a bill, ordering a pastry, whatever, get out your phone and turn it on. Turn on the voice recorder.
Then that way, if they correct you, you can get the native speaker on tape. Go back and listen to it a few times. Yeah. I really encourage my students to do some recording, and I think I need to... make it an even stronger recommendation. Recording yourselves speaking and then going back and listening to it later. Actually, that's something we discussed in a recent podcast with Elliot Friesen.
Guys, if you didn't catch that podcast, go back and look for it. We were talking about the IELTS exam. He is the Magoosh. which is a company that does test prep materials. He's the Magoosh IELTS expert. So Elliot Friesen, yeah, that, that. Podcast came out maybe about a month ago, not too long ago. So if you go to rachelsenglish.com slash podcast, it should be on that front page. Check it out. Well, David, I think that sort of wraps up. Do you have anything else that you wanted to add about?
What it felt like to be there or any other little anecdotes from the trip? Oh, I don't think so. It just gave me such a new appreciation or I guess a renewed appreciation. for your students and for people who are learning English. You know, I run into people a lot, and it just gave me a new appreciation for your students and for everybody else who's trying to learn English.
It is so much of a not straightforward language. And so it made me remember how much I want to slow down and take a minute or two. communicate with them and help them. And it made me want to be that person who takes the extra time to correct someone and to engage someone in a little bit of conversation. So I think it opened me up a little bit.
Yeah, it's really amazing how travel will do that. If only everybody was able to travel more, maybe the world would seem smaller and everyone would get along. Wouldn't that be nice? Okay, on that note, guys, thanks so much for listening to this podcast. Again, if you would like a free copy of the transcript, just visit rachelsenglish.com slash podcast and look for this episode.
This is part two in a series of podcasts that we're doing that's coming out of our time in Italy. So be sure to listen next week. And actually even better, if you haven't subscribed, go to the iTunes store or to Stitcher and subscribe to the podcast so that it'll pop up for you every week. I would love to have you as a regular listener. And even better, would you mind sharing with your friends and family? Post to social media a link to your favorite podcast. Tell people why you like it.
Let's see if we can spread the word about the Rachel's English podcast. That's it, guys. And thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next week.