Louis Cayer - The Guru

Which is com absolutely incredible. And then we had Joe Salisbury making the final of the men's doubles, the semifinal of the mixed doubles, Jamie Murray semifinals of the doubles. The the list goes on and on and to have the opportunity to sit and talk tennis with the man himself was just incredible. It is extremely educational. Sit back, get your notepad out. Because there's lots to be written, lots to be learnt and I'm gonna pass you over to Louis Cayenne.

So Louis Caillet, welcome to Control the Controllables. How you doing?

A semi finalist in the men's doubles, a semi finalist in the mixed doubles. And I'm surprised that you've got your eyes open, Louis, because it must have been a lot of late nights the last couple of weeks.

this is like less than common. So he was a superstar in that match, took control. And I talked to Joe and Rajiv and they just felt beaten. So they You feel bad after, but it's not like uh when you lost like uh you know super tabrick at the end and you know you could have win and you played bad. Uh they were just beaten.

But uh yeah, he's doing very well and pretty much all the Brits are playing uh some good doubles. It's nice to watch him play.

28% of return of second serve instead of 55%. I say, uh oh. Yeah. What's going on there? Then I go in the filter and I I I ask, okay, show me every backend return of second serve. And then I see if I see any pattern.

And sometimes the pattern they are anxious, they had the ball too much in front. But it's not a technical problem. People will think, oh technically no, they were just a bit anxious. Yeah. So I, for example, when the players say, My serve let me down, I prefer to say I was quite stressed today.

And I got my serve or my my return uh abandoned me today. I was a bit anxious. It makes me contact the ball too much in front. So if they take responsibility for the way they feel as a performer, yeah, and how it affects their technique. then they can refocus much more easily in matches and perform much more regularly than blaming the strokes and blaming something.

Bottom line, that they know how to hit the ball, so if they don't hit the ball well during that match, it could be the opponent is too good, you know, like uh if I play you you're gonna beat me. It's not because I I choke.

And if they feel, for example, like just wait for the ball, you know, like so that their their mind is on the process, because it's so easy to shift into the outcome wanting to win the point. wanting to at cross court, wanting to it at defeat. And during all that time, if your money is on the future, there's a serve coming to you. And if you don't set up quickly, if you don't wait for the ball.

then everything becomes difficult. Because I strongly believe if you're ready for the ball, it becomes possible. If you're not set up for the walk with the ball, every ball becomes difficult. So it is to refocus on the process. refocus on that and not of course to think technically, have your elbow up and all this, but you can think about a feel. Feel hitting heavy, feel together, feel this. That's give an easy refocus to play to play well after.

to you know that to commit to and and we break that down into internal external Internal cues which would be body or racket, external cues which would be target or or a game style cue. You know, it seems when you're talking about especially the return of serve, how much of it do you put on a on a feeling which might be racket or body? Or will you have some players that are actually really that work a little bit better when they're committing to a target?

So even if it's a cliche, no to focus on contact, keep your head still, just keep your mind on the process and feel your hit. It's it's a cliche, but it seems to be supported by some research. that is the right thing to do. So the intention has to precede, but when it's time to hit the ball, you know, your mind has to be right there, your focus right there, and let it go. And you should know where you're gonna hit.

Yeah. But when you like I say I mentioned to wait for the ball. Yeah, like Bruno is very good, we call that in technique like holding. So if he hit wait for the ball. And you see the net player like crossing, it's very easy to change direction. Yep. But if he was doing a continuous motion and suddenly the guy moved and he tried to pull the swing in a different way, you could miss a lot.

Yeah. So I like the the feeling of uh hold it, no wait, hold for the return. And then after that, you know, like contour with arm and body together on first search. On second serve, then you can attack, you can do this. You know Jamie is old fashioned, not old fashioned, but old style. Come to the net like eighty percent, but you can at hard. On second serve, you have a lot of options.

On first serve, it's quite difficult. The serve come fast. Yeah. And there's a guy at the net like almost like they squeeze a lot. Yeah. They stand very close to the middle. They say, try twit in the trend line or to make a great angle when the ball comes at 200k. So it's quite difficult. So it's uh Yeah, so you need commitment on the return mentally. And then after that, you have to focus on the process, which is feeling the shot and be steady with it.

You you were telling me w that the doubles guys were playing with Andy Murray?

And didn't work very well. And suddenly uh it was Duming Glutt who served very big. Say, wow, you know it's so frustrating. You serve, you look and he's waiting with his racket there and the ball come back to your feet. Yeah. It's amazing, you know, how quick you reach the ball.

So I say okay, that's that's the idea. So let's go right away, wait for the ball. And it has improved the return of everybody. Yeah. Because before you hit it, you have to read it and you have to prefer for and instead of saying prefer more compact instead of putting the attention on the body because almost everybody say more compact swing. So on a volley you don't say more compact swing too, you know? So for me a ground stroke is a ground stroke.

A volley is a volley and a return is a return. A return should not be like a a short ground stroke. A return should be a return. So you you wait for a ball and then after that uh you you could of course just block it. you can just neutralize it or you can look to put more pressure by using your body and we call that contouring, contouring the serve. And for that you need uh to use your arm and body a bit more together, which is a specific feel.

But yeah, it was Andy Murray who and spar pretty much everyone and without returning stuff to be very good in doubles and I think overall uh all the Brits have benefited from that.

And then you you stroke it back. And especially in doubles, you know, you you don't start a point with a moon ball. Okay, you can lob, but very often the lob are defensive. So you have to keep the ball low. So you you have to prepare White at the same height as the ball in order to hit the ball like penetrating low. So it's not like you have to stand way back and uh make a nice loopy deep ball and start to rally.

So the technique of the return is uh slightly different. We stand also a bit closer because there's a net player. So you need to be you need to be quite sharp to return well in doubles.

Yeah, so you you have to prepare even earlier uh because you even have less time because you know the serve takes 0.7 seconds to arrive to to the receiver. So a lot of people want that 0.8 more by backing up. But we want to be close to the line. So we have to get the job done well. And beside lobbying, you want to almost counterattack your return of serve, keep it low and away from the net player. So it takes a Yeah, I think the skill is different than it's

If you attack me, I'll try to anticipate you. So you're going to disguise your shot. If you disguise well, then I have to react. So I'm going to look to time my footstep to be as explosive that I can right or left. Left. But you're going to hold your shot. And then boom, so you're gonna disrupt my footstep timing on it. And on the return, same thing, the network try to read, anticipate, so you disguise, or try to be very explosive. And if you hold you you glue the player right there.

Because they have a feeling if they move you're gonna burn them right away. So I will I will make more a tactical uh explanation on the exactly the type of return I look for. As for the guy, it's there's a little bit of that, more on the second serve, but in the first serve is pure space time. You have to be there. The ball comes very fast. You need that type of technique, otherwise, uh it won't happen.

that passion started, you know. So if you go back to your very, very early days, I guess I'd love to know firstly about how the passion for tennis started. And then secondly, your passion for coaching.

on the school wall. So I end there for about a month and two and suddenly a guy on a bicycle said, Oh, you play tennis. Say, where do you play? By here? Why? But you don't play at the club there called Woodland Tennis Club. Say, what is that? So you say come with me. So he showed me the tennis. Or with the net and all this quartz red'twas nicely a quartz said, Wow, that's cool. but the membership was very expensive. It was seven, it was seven dollars for the the summer season. Remember.

No, I'm sixty eight, I was like thirteen, so that's fifty five years ago. So I said, I'll ask my parents. So they say okay. So I start and I just love the atmosphere, the energy. I was even going there when it was raining because they had a table tennis. we could play a table tennis and play cards. It was like a club life, a club And uh yeah, I really enjoy it. And my passion for coaching, uh, it came from a very pretty uh

tennis instructor. My job in the summer was to unload tennis trucks, uh tennis truck, uh trucks at the hospital, the Toronto Hospital. And it was just across a park where there was a tennis court. So I was going to eat my lunch at that park. There was a very pretty intractor. So I went to just chit chat. Oh, I played tennis too.

Oh, I would much prefer teach studies than on load trucks. And she said, oh you just have to take that uh course and then I say, will I be able to teach the same place as you? She said, maybe, who knows? And I was able to teach in place others, and that was funny. So I took a lesson like this and then I I just just loved it. I think I have even more a passion for coaching tennis than actually playing tennis, even if I love playing tennis. The my my passion to for coaching

Was there from the beginning. I was scout by the uh person in charge of tennis Montreal. He heard about me. I was sixteen years old or seventeen. Oh, I didn't even take a lunch break. I was eating my sandwich, giving lesson to yeah kids who wanted to be good and uh And I was called because we want the baseball tennis championship in our park in Montreal there was like twenty two parts.

which is not even a real tennis tournament. And he heard about my passion about how I was always with the kids helping them. He upgrade me and upgrade me. And when I was 19 I became in charge of the the elite of all the parts. Right. I was in a special part and did well there. Then the province, the Federation, Tennis Federation of Quebec, then heard about me, iron me a job as a provincial coach.

And I did well there, the national Tennis Canada offered me a national coach. And after that Davis Cup. I j I really just went uh each step of a ladder. I never burned I didn't start at the top I start and uh with the beginners in a park to uh more advanced at that part than to uh uh regional, municipal, regional, provincial, national, international.

You know, and I think there is quite a lot of tennis coaches out there that want to jump the steps and some of the tennis players, you know, uh whereas by doing each step, you then have the absolute context. And you have empathy for everyone that you're working around, you you're able to just bring all of the different information you have into a real world. Whereas if you miss too many of those steps. You o you often get found out, I think.

I I think it's difficult to be great at those three when you start right away at the top or right away traveling because you don't do that much skill development when you're with a player on the road. I don't say we don't do because we do, but we don't do as much as when you start with twelve, thirteen years old who have to need a lot of skill development.

Also when you train at home or you do a training camp, you do more drilling than on the road. On the road you don't try to exhaust your player, you know, you have to keep them fresh. So to be a very good driller, I think it's easier when you work in an academy, when you have an old base. And then of course to be a good match play court, then you have to be uh uh tournaments so this is pretty much what we emphasis. Uh we want a good coach to be someone who helps

players to win and help their confidence and all this. So uh ex players sometime who travel on their road could be really good at that. But it's it's one aspect of being a complete coach. So I think with you all the the steps. like you, you know, we're working in an academy and then you go on the road and all this, I think touching everything makes you a bit more um all around type of coach. And I think it could be important because at any point, even if you're a top player with the the best

In the world when you say, gee, I don't feel my phone down the line. You have to be able to intervene and teach it in a nice, easy, simple way. Yeah. That the player will say, okay, yeah, I feel it. No, thanks. So that helps.

All of a sudden I was like all of a sudden going, What? They they weren't that good. They're now like fifty in the world, 40 in the world, 30 in the world. So so you instantly got got my attention. And I think I mean we could we could talk for hours about the success that you've had and I think, you know, we we all know and I think British tennis is forever in debt. for for what you have done for British tennis. You know, it's it's absolutely incredible that it the the record speaks for itself.

But what I'd love to then get into is what what's that built on? You know, what are the what are the key principles that you've brought in place? Because it it very much seems to me like you have brought a system. Which isn't always the easiest thing in the world to do to bring a system so

But it really feels like the player has had to come in and then fit into that system, I'm sure, in their in their own individualized way. So can you tell the listeners what the key principles of that system are, Luke?

And I see people will think, yeah, that's quite easy, but it's not that easy and uh to do that. And it's mostly based on a philosophy uh that we won't go there to necessarily to win the match because we're gonna serve them out, uh kick them out, we're gonna make them lose the match.

putting pressure, pressure, pressure, and uh that can uh make you win a lot of match with what it is. And regarding on space, for example, on the return of serve, the serve the receiver's partner. Never protect the tram line. No or the the corridor or the alleys. People call that different

But it doesn't mean that when I say don't cover it, if you're sure that the guy goes there, that you you're not allowed to move there. So sometimes you will change a bit your technique to it's it will be so obvious that you're going toward a trend line that the guy will just go back toward the line and just snipe back to you and then you feel bad because I should I should have volley cross court.

Then you get used to see him in the middle. You volley cross-court, you avoid him once or twice or three. And then this time you decide to poach, but it's so close to the middle of the court that if you poach, No, he is very effective. It's based on winning fifty one percent of the point, not to uh kill the guy, to make them try a low percentage shot and to raise our level of anxiety.

So they get stressed by by what we do and how we are and and of course to always bring high performance energy. And guess what? That was uh the last speech again with Joe and I praise him on that today, to always control the

What is the process really? Everybody say that. Don't concentrate on the outcome. What is the process? But what is the process? Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the base. I think uh And and when I make a presentation on British double system, I put two arrows. One is how we develop performers and how we develop them as tennis players. And as performers, their identity, belief. Values, mindset, attitude and mental skill. So like

let's say uh a belief no one loves a bread because we can cross a service line before a love. Nobody does this, we do that, we're this. A lot of small belief and uh Yeah, I I like to work at the level of identity, which is the your belief in you and the team. Like have a specific game style, yeah, values, work attack, professionalism, excellence. All this I I think if we don't Uh if we're not good at developing a performer.

We're not really a high performance coach because the word says in itself, I am a high performer coach. So what should I coach? How to perform and the sport of tennis. So then you teach a tactics and technique relate. Yeah, you have to tackle it both at the same same level, performer and tennis players. And that's

the base of the British system. And the tennis side, because we know the positioning, the movement, who takes the middle and all this. Any Brits can play with any Brits uh right away. There's no adjustment. They they play their own game because they have their own strength. But the the system of uh positioning and movement is known by everyone. And D Murray master it as well as uh anybody else who play doubles full time.

I had pretty good hands, so I was quite good at picking up a first volley, but actually it doesn't matter. If you're hitting a low first volley against good guys, it doesn't matter because they're closing the net on you. You know, uh but what if I came in Then, not looking back now. Don't look at me now. Don't tell me I need to get fit. Imagine I was fit and I came to you at twenty-five. What are the first three or the three most important things that you're you're teaching me?

could be receiver's partner look if you get past in a trend line you know the beginning you're new you you're always protected you look at me and you point and say it's your fault okay do that and they realize after the match it didn't happen and they uh they start to have uh wins that they never had because their their progression is quickly. So I I gain a lot of trust because by bringing some

Modification like serve, go to your spot because when they serve wide, they go to the middle of the court. Yeah. Like in singles. No, no, go to your spot still.

So I think I will do the same as I did with every Brit. I will look at you serving'cause that's important. I will say, go there, go there, do this, quicker to your spot or do that or Whatever, or I will make you practice the four type of surf. Yeah like on those regular stay regular approach.

Restay eye pose and then the same thing on the ad side. So to practice like your eight variations of movement, because if you never practice them, you cannot suddenly put a switch on and suddenly make a specific tactics and and be able to master it. So that's it. I just uh observe, analyze and decide what will be best for you to win more points at the very, very short term.

'Cause it's because it's way too late for me now. But that moves me into the next bit because I guess a lot of people listening to this podcast are there'll be some that are involved at a at a at a higher level competition level of the sport, but there is also a lot of people listening to

you know, very much a big part of the ecosystem of tennis and club working in clubs and, you know, keeping people playing and and obviously doubles is a massive part of that, you know, around the clubs in the UK, but all also around the world. And I know I had this chat with my mother in law, who hopefully if she's listening, hello, Sue. And and I actually talked to her about just move your positioning. Just that's it. You know, she plays doubles once or twice a week.

And I just said they're not gonna pass you in the tram lines. Because that was a that was a real fear I had when I played. You just kind of naturally think it's gonna go there, but but like you say, it doesn't. And she reported back to me that just by shifting slightly closer to the center, it was amazing how many balls ended up on her racket.

So can you can you give can you give the listeners and coaches and and people that are playing at club level, give them one or two little quick tips that can help their double?

So for me, the fear of getting hit, I don't teach people won't see me near, but I don't see like this. I accept like to have a backhand grip. So if the ball comes fast on you, you already prepare you cover your body and you cover also if you stretch. Yeah. So I teach that. uh fear of getting passing the tram line, I make a little competition. I put like the four members over there. I say, I'll gonna hit you like a nice Uh ball cross court about at the same pace as you do.

If you put like a the ball in the tram line over three on ten, like four on ten, you know, three on ten, I buy a drink to everybody or yeah, whatever it is. And they don't succeed. They cannot do it. And I say even less. I mean if the ball is very easy, maybe, but if if your friend hit anything that looks a bit like attacking, a bit like annoying, yeah, because it's a bit deeper, it's a bit more please don't protect it. Switch a bit to the middle.

But if it's very short and easy, yeah, okay, protect your tram line, but not and they realize okay, so you have to change your belief about things. And for the lob, uh, I say on the first serve, if you get lobs, it's okay. Your partner will switch because their partner stays back. Yeah. No big deal. And when you're bolt at the net, I show them where to stand in the l uh on the wall.

And I show them the service line behind and we make them a little test. Every time they cross the service line before a lob, which is slow, they never get lobbed.

Most of a lot of people play bold back. Now let them play bold back. Let them serve and stay back. And let's let's show them how to win when you stay back on your serve or your bold back on the return. And this is all fine now. The the players do all these variations. So that's it. So respect the members and you members have a coach who will ask uh help you to go. Past the fear of getting past, getting hit and getting loved. And you're gonna be very effective and

And the women's as high as ninety ninety five. How much have you had to evolve the way that you coach on the back of that? Because I guess that that changes that changes lots of things when you're teaching players.

Yeah, there's a lot of tactics and for a ball back we put the rule for example never, never volley twice in a row to the forehand. Yeah. It's like it could be like simple, yeah. But go go reach the back end because the back end, even if it's steady. Normally there's less revolution on the ball, more less shape. It's a bit flatter, so there it's easier to volley. And we have developed uh I remember doing a camp. say it was six, seven years ago, the team was let's beat those

dot dot dot singles players. Yeah. So let's beat uh these guys when they stay both back. We're gonna volley on the new side back end guy. He will have no angle on his back end and we'll do that. We'll do this, we'll do that. So yeah, I have to redesign a lot of the patterns because until even two thousand ten, if someone was surveying staying back, you will look like, what are you doing?

And uh suddenly it started few. And it when it when it uh crossed the pivotal like twenty percent, like if you read that the tipping point, there's always a A number where people start to say, Oh, it's fine to do that. And it has uh helped people to stay back, to not feel forced.

Like Neil Skoopsky. Uh he will serve and value first serve, but he felt very comfortable and not inadequate to serve and stay back on his second serve and smack his forehand. But if he was ten years ago, he would be criticized to

And then he sat down at change of ends and it and I said, Come on, we can you know we can do this to me. I didn't know him really and he just said and he really spoke to me in quite a strong Russian accent, No, we take one one point, one point, one point at a time. And he then honestly hit winner after winner.

for two for two sets and I just had to knock a couple of volleys off and I thought wow this is like this is the future this is amazing So a couple of days later we played against Fernando Vicenti and Oscar Hernandez, who were both top hundred singles guys, centre court Barcelona, and it was the worst forty five minutes of my life. It was three players at the back of the court and me at the net.

And you talk about trying to find their backhands. I don't think they hit one backhand in the match. I don't know if you know remember Vicenti was very talented and skillful with the four. And Oscar Hernandez just like smacked heavy, heavy forehands. And it was we lost six love, and I think it was six four on the second set. It was a bit more respectful, but it was just I wanted the ground to swallow me up. So the ability to adapt to that.

is is something that certainly I felt as a player and and and I'm sure like you say as a coach you've had to do that as well.

If if they're rally, it the play is pretty much neutral. So you stay in the wall position. You don't go close to the net, you don't go to the service line. You just stay more or less there. Yep. You shift a bit toward the middle to give your a chance to your partner to hit the ball down the line. Yeah. And you move a bit there. As soon as it it's an attacking shot. So Mr. Stubb, then you move closer.

And if it's a defensive shot really short and the guy will attack you, you can back up to the service line and defend your tram line. Yes. And let the guy, because you protect your tram line, hit cross court. because your friend at the baseline will have much more chance to deal with it than you if the ball is smack at you.

So it's uh it it's tough for your the people who's listening right now because you don't see it. But uh it's uh it's a simple system. Don't go close to the net unless it's an attacking shot. If it's neutral, stay pretty much in the

Yeah. And the wall position which is a bit in between the net and and just move a bit to your right or to your left. Yeah. And if you're in defense because they're gonna attack, just retrieve back to the your own service line a bit closer to the tram line and after that read what's going on after that.

They felt as if they ended up being the best team in the world because so many had people had split up at the back end of the year before. and they kind of took their time getting to know each other. And then the last half of the year, they felt like teams started to really catch them up and maybe overtake. And and it just seems like there's so many changes so often. I guess there's there's lots to talk about on this, but how how are people, how do you pick the right partner to uh to start with?

Yeah. Then if you're the out side player, you have to find the do side player. Okay. So now suddenly it you cut right away almost in two. So you have about ten, fifteen. Some teams are already established. So you don't okay, to put it simple, you don't have that much choice. Sometime you you pick up someone and you try to make it work. And or you try to find someone who can uh combine your your strength, like for example.

uh Jamie Murray because we both know him very well. His his game is more on on volume. So he will he will want to have A partner like Niels Kubsky or Bruno who can return the ball quite hard so that he can impose, intercept the volley and more shine at the net. And if you play with someone who would not return. For example. And uh and the guy who returned hard, don't mind that Jamie, loves a lot because it creates a lot of variation.

One guy's lobby on one side, the other guy it's hard on the other side. You know you don't give a rhythm. Jamie served lefty, the other guy served righty. So you you don't have as much choice as you may think because you have to choose in a very small bracket.

Yeah. And after that, you have two choice. Either you get along well with the guy and you go have lunch often, you have a social time, or you don't get along with the guy and there's no social activity and you just meet on the court for the warm-up and the match and you play as a business you know as a business partner and these teams are those who will split more often because as soon as the business is not good yes they they want to change.

It's not easy to find a good one. And this is why I think why I'm very uh quite good is I coach a team. I I see coaching double as coaching three people. I coach a du side player, the outside player, and the team. which way the do side player will set up the ad side, yes, and so on and so on. And if you start to develop a team, a team identity, team tactics, team, and everything is team, you know, the always that team has a main focus.

you create a bit that bonding and that that special thing that they may stay together longer. Yeah. Because it it could not just be based on liking each other or no because a lot of time they come from different cultures. you know, like uh like Bruno for example is Brazilian, this or Rajiv is American and is a British and they have different culture, different uh interests maybe in sports, or they have different

Indeed, well and even maybe the split was good because they they have learned to appreciate what everyone was bringing to the team. Yeah. And now they know what each bring to the team so there will be no uh Just expectation, not even oh I hope he does that. I expect he does that and I know he won't do that. So you know what the guy brings to the team, you accept it and you you go for it.

I do have a reputation because I'm on the tour since nineteen eighty seven. Started to travel and start to be with the leading doubles team since uh even nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety one and all this, uh the Canadian were doing very, very well. So I have a bit of the reputation and they kind of let me not control but charge of the team. Yeah. And but I will not go correct, for example, the

the serve or whatever technique the coach will do that. But I could say I would like you serve a bit more white, for example. Yeah. But I will not do I will just do the the team and and that goes very well. I'll touch wood like I said, but uh And uh yeah, and presently all the British coach are British players too. So Rob Morgan with Joe, like uh Alan, George Morgan with Dun and Luke and uh Tony with Johnny O'Mara. So

So everybody we are really in the British family now. British players coached by British coaches.

So we do a lot uh you know like interactive assessment and then we say okay next practice do a bit more this and that and that's it. But like I say, my my relationship with the coaches Are excellent. Like right now even Colin helping Jamie. I coach Colin like the

Hopefully it stays like this. Hopefully I won't get to a age where they start to lack respect and take um too much over the hill. But right now, right now uh I'm happy everything goes pretty well. And of course I I I respect them because if I was lacking respect and bullying it will not work.

I think I create a good energy and a good synergy and uh it's going well.

if you want them to have hard time to at cross court you sort of jump back in or wide. The these basic tactics that was known ten years ago just by a few elite doubles players.

double is more exciting now than it was. There's more variation, much more things is happening.

In the moment this player isn't so brave or in the moment, you know, you can get on top of this guy with your energy. You know, how do you get the balance of that when it comes to scouting?

Then when I scout, I don't scout also what they do, because that's quite easy. I I coach, I scout a lot what they don't do.

Whatever it is, or they never poach on the second serve, or they never do this. That's important knowledge to give to the player.

And then bang then Jamie was poaching bang bang and it worked so well. But uh Andy was feeling these things and played his game about being brave and all this. So you thought you you talk about who they are as performers, who they are as players.

And I I scout a lot of what they don't do. That's very useful. But sometimes we have stats, like we have uh we build up a uh PBI, which is all the stats match after match building up. So for example, We watch at Pulasec on the do site serving to Joe as poaching about ninety percent of the time.

We say that to Joe. Paul Esek poached 100% of the time today. And even if he knew it, he could not do much about it. The serve was too big, position too big, so he didn't win point. But at least he was aware. It's not like he goes, he was surprised that the guy poached a lot. We say he's gonna poach like almost all the time and he poached all the time.

Then that would have been even worse. It would have been one in one, the result, you know. So I think it's good to go with the game plan. But now I've learned over the years. that when you scout a special tournament, a team you didn't know, and you just see the once, I say in that match and against these guys, they have done that.

Because let's say you've you you like play quarters against play quarters, they all return cross court all day long because nobody poked, you don't do I suddenly I said, Oh, they never return line. Now they play uh Brits who have reputation to

poach a lot. What do they start the match? They return line all the time to freeze the net player. Yeah. And they look at me and say they never hit line. Yeah. But on that match against guys who were not poaching, they didn't feel they have to against you the wall. So I've learned over the years. I always say that on that match against these guys.

They have to adapt, like you say, at the moment. And if the people have or they win the first set 6 1 and the opponent have to change something.

and tactics, it's so much more complicated. Yeah. Those who don't appreciate doubles because they don't know doubles. Yeah. They don't understand that. I I feel my skills of coaching doubles has to be so much higher. And then of course when you coach even technique, you have two guys.

So I work with everything and I work with the recruitable players. I think I'm simply a coach. I think I'm an effective coach based on my track record. who has decided to specialize a bit in doubles and also my my stickers I was coach of number one in doubles or coach of a single single uh top fifty. So which

Yeah, I know. When I arrived uh the best was uh James Auckland at one thirty. Yeah. So this there was none. So I say yes, I'll I think I'll do that too. And then well since then I think I don't know, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, I'm not so sure.

So do you feel it sometimes disrespected that you completely that you can get pigeonholed over there or or is it just kind of wash over you?

It makes me smile. I I think they're a bit ignorant. I think a good coach is a good coach and to develop big performance at the same time with two different players. Going into a match and stuff like this, you need a lot of human skills, you need a lot of coaching skills and uh No, it just it's just a hierarchy. Uh I know very much. It's like men's singles, women's singles, men's doubles, and women's doubles in that order.

But he was not either a pass player who had the chance to go right away on the tour with the top player. But who knows? So me Doesn't really matter, honestly. I I just think okay. Think whatever you think whatever you you want. I know who I am and I would not be affected by uh what people would say.

And all this, it it takes so many hours and it's not done. Then I have to assist the National Academy. I have a meeting with them, I have to assist the uh the coaching with Ni uh Nick Will. And I'm involved with different things. So there's so much what I which I do like, it's I do like to watch highlights. Yeah. Because you capture pretty much a bit the highlights of the match. That I like even today I watch a four highlights of singles matches.

I would like uh if it's live to watch uh the last set. I will try to watch the key moments of the match and not sit down from zero zero first set to the end of the five sets. Yeah. Because I simply don't have the time. Well yes, of course I I like it. Yeah, I uh yeah, I like to still watch. But uh but uh after a while, you know, it's it's quite tough because even at the Ostran Open I was even also watching the mixed doubles.

And and and I just share a little quote that I that I like that from Theodore Roosevelt. So people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And and how much I guess I use that same thing of being a performer before you can get your knowledge across the tennis player bit across to the to the to the to the players. How how important is that side of things uh for a coach?

They have people specialized to help the person. So that statement, people care what you know and they know that you care. For me, it's to relate with the person. It's to develop, it's not relate to the performer yet. Yeah. It's to develop that trust. I think I have Not I think I had long very good longevity with players. You know, like uh I do I don't change player like every year or two uh when I start players, that's a long time. Because if they feel that I care.

for them if they feel I really believe in them and if they feel I'm systematic and my weight for goal setting that they constantly improving with me, why would they leave me? You know, they there's there's no reason. Keep improving. I believe in them and I care about them. So that's a person and I they have to be happy.

They have to be that. At the academy we check, you know, we have someone if there's stress at school, it will affect the training. So we have we we really try to take care of the person first. Yeah. Because it affects the performer performer. We use the analogy. Uh I took it from uh uh Sanchez Casal, one in their conference. Uh head, art and legs, you know. Head is like the mental art, the emotional.

start like this and like I say before the entity believes values. If you don't have work ethic you won't even train art so forget the yeah how good you're gonna succeed. You you cannot succeed without working art. Yeah. So all these values, these beliefs are important. And yes, so we have the that's it. So to make it short three piece, person, performer, player.

And it's almost in that order because if someone makes a burnout or stuff like this or have mental health issues, which is a topic becoming very common and popular now, it's not a taboo anymore. If they have big mental health issues, you know it will affect everything. It will affect the performer for sure.

how close you were to all of those guys. And I remember, you know, you were leaving. I think you were leaving as the dancing was starting. And, you know, and and and when you were saying goodbye to the guys and there's Ross Hutchins, Colin Fleming. Ken, you know, all of these guys, it was they were they were really it was like they were saying goodbye to, you know, someone very close to them, you know, and that and that did

I guess my only experience I'd had with you up until then is you were abusing my feeds in some conference that I'd done. Um and and and you did, and you you're quite an intimidating character, you know. When you you when you first meet you, I think Because your standards are so high, I think you can come across in quite an intimidating way. And when I saw that side to you with the with the players.

it it all made sense to me, you know, and obviously as I've got to know you more and more, you know, I see that side come through a lot. But the one bit I but I do want to pick up on with you as well, Louie, because I think coaches can be guilty of just hiding behind, taking care of the the the person and not actually improving them. We but but but we can't forget that our job as as tennis coaches is to speed up the improvement.

And to and to help them to win, to to win more, you know. And obviously that's something that your record speaks for itself on that. But just that is one that I I sometimes when when we talk about person first, I think there is people out there that can say, Oh, that's a bit fluffy. That's a bit floppy, you know. What do you mean person first? You know, yeah, we're we're in this business to win. We're in this business to for you to improve my child.

And and I think it's obviously having having the performer in there and having having the player in there, that has to be done very well. We can't just hide behind being a nice person to to people because You know, that's not what people are paying the money for ultimately is as tennis coach.

They say, what do you want the child to answer you? No, I don't, I won't win. Oh, I don't know, dad or mom. Yeah. You know, the the boy or the girl say, yeah, yeah, yeah. It puts so much pressure on that. Because you don't know if you're gonna win. If it's a matchup, you don't know. It's it's it comes down to few points, few clutch points. And you don't know, you put tremendous. So just go there and give your best effort, you know. Again, we start with that. Control the controllables.

Just go there, give your best effort, and as long as they give their best effort in all this, you know, you praise your child and that's that's all. So it's to support their journey, make it enjoyable and not project.

uh yourself into your child and uh project your sense of words with their winning, you know, like just uh support them and you have to feel free like if you s your child say I want to stop that to feel fine with it as long as they because you you you develop a lot through a sport to develop a lot of values, a lot of discipline, a lot of uh a lot of good things. So yeah, I think it's yeah, it's very important to make it enjoyable. Mark uh all the training camp, we have two key words.

Enjoyment and improvement.

And if the coach respect these things, I think uh we can do good work just with that.

to that to that place, I think is really important. So Louis, you you have been an absolute stars always. It it's such a it's such a pleasure for me to to have you on the show and to spend this time with you. So so thank you, but you don't get away without the quick fire round. Okay. So so are you ready?

And and I think that came through really loudly and clearly.

But you're not in control of lots of different external things out there. So, you know, how prepared you are and and and and uh you very much get the idea that his players are walking on that court with complete preparation. And and I love the the analogy used on the the Joe Salisbury final at the Australian Open. He told him that they were gonna probably cross and try and poach on him for ninety five percent of points.

And Joel knew it was gonna happen, but they actually did it a hundred percent of points. And he said, Look, Joel, there was nothing Joel could do about it on the day, but they they were okay because they'd done everything in their control. And there's something very comforting about that and you know having Louis Caia in your corner must really give you that extra bit of comfort for these double.

He's adapting his ways to the way that the game is and he's trying to stay ahead of the trends. And yeah, what a what a real treat to talk.

But yes, it this one with Louis Kaya, you guys are really taking away, you know, some proper in depth knowledge of the game. And I think with Nick it it was entertaining, it was you know it was full of you know, lots of lots of different cliches, lots of different anecdotes that you can you can take away and and be highly motivated from. Uh but it's certainly it brought a few. I have to shout out to Jimmy Nelson.

who he sent me about five voice notes now talking about baby and Gee Wiz and uh Richard Williams and you know, all of these things. So I thank you for your feedback. I I'm I'm pleased

And if you fancy winning one of the courses, just head on over to our Instagram page at Sosotennis. and find the one hundredth podcast giveaway post to find out how to enter. I'm also gonna put the details of how you can do that as well in this episode's show notes. So good luck if